Newbie 1764: Wind Game Over

[Accountant]

When you say you had another game that was more important than this one, so all of your interest was there. Why is that? Was your wincon in jeopardy there but not here?

As an IC can you show me your post were you try to explain to us good town strategy to help us win. Any post as an IC explaining bad actions or strategy for us to avoid?

1) I understand that you viewed them as TvT, but I'm not sure why you came to the conclusion that it was me inciting a TvT. What I am asking is why, upon seeing what you saw, why you thought it was definitely "Accountant is scum who is making town fight" rather than "Accountant is town who is mistaken about who is town and starting conflict between townies by accident". Unless you already know my alignment and are trying to portray me a certain way?

2) I'm not sure what you mean by "wincon in jeopardy", but the other game was LyLo. That means that a single vote being wrong could tilt the outcome of the game in one direction or the other, so it was necessary to be excessively careful about the way I handled the game. In general, LyLo situations are far more difficult to play than playing regular mafia.

3) Post 22 on page 1, outlined in red - you would have seen it if you'd read the game thread.

[Accountant]

You talk about NY being null now after you road him hard. Why? Because you say it must be his play style? Then in bold ^ you knock Alisea for doing what you were doing??

Yes, precisely. That's exactly what I said in the very post where I explained why I thought nydusher was town after thinking he was scum early on.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. I was knocking Alisae for being intentionally provocative towards nydusher and resorting to attacks of a personal nature, which I could only assume was meant to provoke him. This is not what I have done, so it's not hypocritical like you're saying it is.

[Accountant]

You kept bullying him into a corner even after he gave his answer.
You reason for wanting definite yes or no was so you "could hold it against if he changed his mind later." Why would you not want us to have fluid evolving thoughts?

There's a difference between having "fluid evolving thoughts" and "having thoughts that are so vague you can't justify them when asked why you were thinking the way you were at the time". If you notice, nydushermain never gave me a straight yes or no answer, which is what I wanted. I like bullying people and pressuring people who are being vague or trying to hide. Don't you think that's something that town would do?

[Accountant]

This looks like what you did D1 and come out D2 and top vote Pep

No it is not. How is it the same in any way?

[Accountant]

Hmm. I see the points being made on Acc but feel like nyd is more likely to flip scum, unless it's Gamma/Acc? Seems like there's somewhat circular relationships within [Gamma, Nyd, Accountant]. Defenses of one another in some places, the way Nyd uses Acc/Gamma's reaction to his post as the standard and judge's Pep for it.

Acc and Nyd's relationship D1 could have been distancing as well, seems like they moved from SRing one another pretty strongly early and then end up ignoring/TRing each other later. There was that meta dive from nyd and then Accountant sort of fell off and ended up pushing Alisae and I. Pushing Pep now too, they're all on that wagon now actually, until that unvote which could be the scumteam realizing their wagon wasn't going to go through.

Could go anywhere in those 3 at this point but would prefer Nyd, he seems to make sense with either of the others.

Where is Pep here?

[Accountant]

Accountant brings up a good point which should be enough the mask himself for the rest of the day but he also basically tells us to not let the Alisae wagon go out. This means he is sure about who Alisae is and sees it as crucial that his lynch is hammered at the end of the day. Given that Alisae flipped town this post just shows that Accountant is not playing from a town mindset.

Do you believe that it is impossible that me, as town, would be sure that Alisae is scum and would think it is crucial that she is hammered, but end up being wrong?

[Accountant]

Actually I'm going to go ahead and call 1115 a scumslip because that kind of omniscient thinking - assuming that everyone knows the alignment of everyone else, and that therefore everyone who pushes town is scum - is characteristic of scum. Scum doesn't know what it's like to be town and be trying to poke and prod people to get answers out of them, they already know the alignment of everyone else. By thinking and starting from that kind of frame of mind, it leads to the awful lines of logic that Pep tried to push onto me.

[Ramcius]

you started Alisae wagon, promised explain later, but explanation never came, you just backed off, when i took it over, you saw me confronting him, only needed push, and i did all dirty work for you, sure, this isn't enough, i won't go back in D1 for more, when we have stuff in D2, vote on DBW at start of D2, why? without explanation, without reasoning, and when you say you was so busy with things, well, it's a rock in everyone's garden to let him at L-1 without asking to claim or doing anything, but you an IC, you should know how dangerous is putting lurker to L-1 and hammer would bring us to LyLo, when you saw it's not happening, you changed to Pep, as you said, to see where it leads, yet you do nothing, not asking claim, not pushing, but neither taking vote back, question is, if you so busy, why start voting at start of day between Christmas and New year?

Okay, let's go over these accusations one by one.

1) I started Alisae wagon but never explained myself and let others push it. I have already explained my reasoning in the previous post.

2) That I L-1ed DBW for no reason. Well, the reason is that I love wagoning people. I think it places great pressure on them and it helps to motivate them to post more and post better. It also forces people to take a stance early, so scum can't fencesit and blend in. Finally I felt DBW was scummy enough to be L-1ed.

3) That as an IC I should have not let DBW sit at L-1. This is nonsense. First of all it's perfectly natural and valid to let a scummy person sit at L-1. Second of all I have already warned everyone not to hammer without a claim. I'm not sure what you meant by "dangerous". Who here do you think is likely to randomly hammer DBW before a roleclaim?

4) That I am not pushing Pep. This is nonsense. I have been consistently advocating for his lynch and engaging with both him and Screenplay for the past few pages.

i understand, it's newbie game, but doesn't mean we stupid - DBW scummy? He's a lynchbait, he was good lynch D1, but not when we 1 ML from LyLo, or you try tell us hardcore lurking/inactivity is scum sign? Simply IC from other place explained me very clearly that lurkers are most likely VT (oh, i didn't wanted agree with him despite i knew he's right, i just needed that last ML in LyLo )

yes, you push lynch on Pep, but aren't town more interested to hear his claim first?

to answer your question who would hammer DBW at L-1 i just say what i said before in here - another ML will bring mafia to LyLo, sure we lynch one of them, then we get 3 man LyLo, since doc out already

[Accountant]

Ok, but why are you pushing for my lynch?

You mean before you accidentally revealed your alignment to everyone else?

It's simple. I thought Ramcius and ssbm were town. That leaves nydusher, Gamma, DBW and you. It slowly came out that nydusher was town in my eyes(post 972) which meant Gamma, DBW and you, out of whom 2 were scum. I think Gamma is the towniest out of the three, and even if he turned out to be scum you're not an unlikely scumbuddy with him. At the same time, you were also a good scumbuddy with DBW(see post 973). Statistically you're likely scum, your pushes have been horrid(that awful admitted sheep at the start or instance) and one of the two confirmed town(who we know we can trust) says that you're scum.

[Accountant]

hardcore lurking/inactivity is scum sign? Simply IC from other place explained me very clearly that lurkers are most likely VT

Yes. Lurking/inactivity is a scummy behavior and should be punished. I'm not saying we should lynch someone on that alone - that's silly and scummy - but I have absolutely no issue with voting someone to L-1 just because he's scummy. Again, the threat of a random mislynch(via quickhammer) happening isn't really true here. There isn't anyone here who would be that reckless, I think.

[Accountant]

but I have absolutely no issue with voting someone to L-1 just because he's scummy.

Correction: just because he's lurking*

Especially

when that person is one of the 3 people in the set that I think 2 members are scum.

[Accountant]

but I have absolutely no issue with voting someone to L-1 just because he's scummy.

Correction: just because he's lurking*

Especially

when that person is one of the 3 people in the set that I think 2 members are scum.

[Ramcius]

hardcore lurking/inactivity is scum sign? Simply IC from other place explained me very clearly that lurkers are most likely VT

Yes. Lurking/inactivity is a scummy behavior and should be punished. I'm not saying we should lynch someone on that alone - that's silly and scummy - but I have absolutely no issue with voting someone to L-1 just because he's scummy. Again, the threat of a random mislynch(via quickhammer) happening isn't really true here. There isn't anyone here who would be that reckless, I think.

no, there no mafia so reckless, i would do without a blink - scoring 1 ML easier than scoring 2, and 3 man LyLo, when mafia can choose who goes in there (2 NK) is really sweet idea

yes, it's scummy, but NAI, and you knew DBW not going talk from being voted, heck, we were going lynch him on D1 at deadline, he didn't care, so your vote i find opportunistic, same wagon on Pep later, and now you try cover with "lurkers are scum"

VOTE: Accountant

[Accountant]

yes, it's scummy, but NAI, and you knew DBW not going talk from being voted, heck, we were going lynch him on D1 at deadline, he didn't care, so your vote i find opportunistic, same wagon on Pep later, and now you try cover with "lurkers are scum"

Lurking is not the only reason I voted DBW. Didn't you read? He's one of the 3 people I wanted to lynch today(because two of them were scum), and at that point he's the most likely to be lynched.

Also, would you like me to provide games where I voted someone for lurking as town?

[Ramcius]

yes, it's scummy, but NAI, and you knew DBW not going talk from being voted, heck, we were going lynch him on D1 at deadline, he didn't care, so your vote i find opportunistic, same wagon on Pep later, and now you try cover with "lurkers are scum"

Lurking is not the only reason I voted DBW. Didn't you read? He's one of the 3 people I wanted to lynch today(because two of them were scum), and at that point he's the most likely to be lynched.

Also, would you like me to provide games where I voted someone for lurking as town?

no, i want to know why DBW looked scummy? And why you wanted him dead at start of D2?

[Pepchoninga]

Accountant brings up a good point which should be enough the mask himself for the rest of the day but he also basically tells us to not let the Alisae wagon go out. This means he is sure about who Alisae is and sees it as crucial that his lynch is hammered at the end of the day. Given that Alisae flipped town this post just shows that Accountant is not playing from a town mindset.

Do you believe that it is impossible that me, as town, would be sure that Alisae is scum and would think it is crucial that she is hammered, but end up being wrong?

I'm not saying that is it impossible, what I'm saying is that no town should act like that. You can never be 100% sure who is who and if you are then your alignment is clear. You also didn't do anything to bring good points to the Alisae lynch, all you did was stand there and say how crucial it is to lynch him.

[Pepchoninga]

Actually I'm going to go ahead and call 1115 a scumslip because that kind of omniscient thinking - assuming that everyone knows the alignment of everyone else, and that therefore everyone who pushes town is scum - is characteristic of scum. Scum doesn't know what it's like to be town and be trying to poke and prod people to get answers out of them, they already know the alignment of everyone else. By thinking and starting from that kind of frame of mind, it leads to the awful lines of logic that Pep tried to push onto me.

You are either reading everything I see wrong or you are intentionally provoking me and doing this to make me look scummy. Consider the post as you wish. What I said now was that you didn't contribute to the Alisae lynch yet you were so sure about it needing to happen. Why is that? Because he came in and was an active member so you were more then happy, seing as the lynch could happen, to try and push people to go ahead and finish the lynch. This I think is why you didn't really hammer DBW. Why would you? He was mostly innactive, so at least until he is replaced he isn't that big of a threat.

[Pepchoninga]

Ok, but why are you pushing for my lynch?

You mean before you accidentally revealed your alignment to everyone else?

It's simple. I thought Ramcius and ssbm were town. That leaves nydusher, Gamma, DBW and you. It slowly came out that nydusher was town in my eyes(post 972) which meant Gamma, DBW and you, out of whom 2 were scum. I think Gamma is the towniest out of the three, and even if he turned out to be scum you're not an unlikely scumbuddy with him. At the same time, you were also a good scumbuddy with DBW(see post 973). Statistically you're likely scum, your pushes have been horrid(that awful admitted sheep at the start or instance) and one of the two confirmed town(who we know we can trust) says that you're scum.

Here is a thing for you. Why would I be a scum buddy with one of my top scum reads? (Gamma) Belive me you should know that scum usually don't put there parthner on the top of there reads. And why is Gamma the towniest? What has he done for the benefit of town? So here it is, what makes you think that statistically I'm scum? Because you are presenting a hit and miss theory with no clear evidence and are just trying to make me look scummy, so you can get out of your situation, which again is you being at L-1

[Srceenplay]

Accountant is

L-1

No one vote before giving an intent to hammer first.

[Accountant]

no, i want to know why DBW looked scummy? And why you wanted him dead at start of D2?

Do you understand what the process of elimination is?

[Accountant]

I'm not saying that is it impossible, what I'm saying is that no town should act like that. You can never be 100% sure who is who and if you are then your alignment is clear. You also didn't do anything to bring good points to the Alisae lynch, all you did was stand there and say how crucial it is to lynch him.

1) Ah, so you are saying that as town I would never be 100% sure someone is scum and end up being wrong after they get lynched? Because I certainly have some interesting examples to show you if that's your stance. Furthermore, why bring this up now and not at the start of D2?

2) Didn't you read my case on Alisae? Or are you, as I suspect, pretending to ignore it because it's not convenient for your narrative?

[Accountant]

What I said now was that you didn't contribute to the Alisae lynch yet you were so sure about it needing to happen.

What do you mean I didn't contribute? I provided reasoning for my vote on alisae, I provided pressure on Alisae both verbally and in the form of votes and I made sure nobody strayed off the wagon and corraled others to lynch her. What contribition am I lacking here?

[Accountant]

Here is a thing for you. Why would I be a scum buddy with one of my top scum reads? (Gamma) Belive me you should know that scum usually don't put there parthner on the top of there reads.

This is incorrect. Why, I've done it myself as scum.

[Accountant]

And why is Gamma the towniest? What has he done for the benefit of town?

For one, he helped to clear nydushermain as town by pointing out his D2 reactions. Why would scum do that? I think scum!Gamma would be likely to try to get nydusher lynched rather than help him out.

[Ramcius]

no, i want to know why DBW looked scummy? And why you wanted him dead at start of D2?

Do you understand what the process of elimination is?

i know, but you didn't answered, why you voted him early in D2, when you was busy, while we have whole 2 weeks? And don't tell me about PoE reasons to get rid of lynchbait, when it's 1 lynch to LyLo

also, it's about time to claim, don't you think so?