Star Wars Rogue One [GAME OVER]

[mastina]

Molla literally could've claimed any role he wanted. Any role. That he claimed the particular role he claimed is completely NAI.

No, he couldn't.

If BBMolla claimed a role which was already in the game, he would be counterclaimed.

And then he'd be lynched, because the CCer would be town.

Molla had no choice but to claim his actual role when roleclaiming.

This is common fucking sense.

If you're not a cop, as scum, do you claim cop? Not unless you're specifically looking to be counterclaimed. The risk of the role being in the game would simply be too high. Now, granted. In select conditions, this may not apply. But in a theme game which is role-heavy, fuck yes it means you claim your real role 95% of the time because claiming anything else gets you lynched almost every time. (Within reason. Goon-->Vanilla; Godfather-->still Vanilla; Ninja-->stiiiiiill Vanilla; Strongman-->Yep, still claiming Vanilla. Roleblocker-->RB or maybe if you're feeling ambitious JK. VT is possible, of course. Rolecop-->Rolecop, Vanilla cop, if you're feeling ambitious Neapolitan, or maybe VT if you're a coward.)

[Aj The Epic]

I think flavor fake claims would definitely exist. Not sure about role fake claims. Not seen it in a while where scum get that.

[mastina]

I mean, I assume scum got fakeclaims.

Yes. And presumably, they are fakeclaims of their real fucking role.

You don't get mods who make a scum roleblocker and give them a fakeclaim of vigilante.
(Okay. Maybe you DO, but those mods are absolutely shitty mods.)

You get mods who make a scum roleblocker and give them a fakeclaim of either roleblocker or jailkeeper or some variant role thereof.

Not that hard.

[mastina]

Pine would've still killed Nacho no matter what.

Remind me why?

NOT in the mood to go into detail about this again.

I've been here in this game for over two hours.

I meant to be here for five minutes.

Those tasks which were supposed to be done before midnight, which I said I'd do after getting caught up here?

Yeah well guess what, it's now 12:30 because I've been fucking debating here with you rather than doing those things and now they're past their deadline. (Know how I said I'd be going back and explaining stuff? Fuck that shit. This game's drained too much of my energy for today. I don't have it in me anymore.)

But basically: Pine has the history level with Nacho basically on par with me. Pine thinks very very VERY similarly to me. Pine honestly might be more afraid of Nacho than he is of me. I know, 100% absolutely beyond any shadow of a fact KNOW, that Pine considers both of us to be among the top players in this playerlist. As in, hands-down, he would see us as the largest threats to him. He can't kill us both. But he could kill Nacho first, something he'd likely do anyway as I know Pine prefers Nacho kills over mastina kills.

As a result? I know that Pine would kill Nacho no matter what because it's almost the kill I would make. It's similar to my own methodology. And the reason Pine killed Nacho is because Pine was afraid of Nacho. Not the Nacho in the game. The Nacho who COULD be in the game, at any moment. That's why Nacho died.

Not some shitty Nacho's-reads-were-accurate newbie thinking. Nacho is a scary player. When he dies, he can die off of his reputation alone. He sometimes has earned it, yes. He can be accurate. But being accurate isn't why Nacho dies. The FEAR of Nacho potentially being accurate is why Nacho dies.

[mastina]

The roleclaim itself, sure, not for towncred.

Then why'd he do it

As town: because, vanillaized, there's no reason not to.
As scum: because, claiming vanillaized, there's no reason not to. He'd also need to claim his original role

eventually

, so it might as well be today.
The roleclaim itself was not for towncred. The roleclaim itself was null.
The role is a scum role.
And the claim to be vanillaized is a scum gambit.

He could've claimed fucking 6-shot desperado 3-shot weak rolecop if he wanted to.

Again.
One, this is a flavored game--he claims something, he needs to justify the flavor. So it needs to fit.
Two, this means he's got a fakeclaim--he diverges from it, he risks being instalynched.
Three, if the role he claims is in the game, he gets counterclaimed and therefore speedlynched.
Four, if the role he claims is utterly unbelievable, he gets lynched.

So, BBMolla is going to claim his actual role, because it will be his actual role, just with a town flavor, because that's what the mod would give him as a fakeclaim: the town version of his role. (Because, again. Any moderator who gives a scum a fakeclaim they cannot prove is a shitty moderator.)

[mastina]

Quick question, Mastina. By your logic, everyone in the D1 rogue crew was town, right?

Yes.

[mastina]

And you can't exactly lie about your powers for risk of those powers actually being in the game in the hands of an actual town player, now, can you?

Fakeclaims. They probably exist.

MY FUCKING POINT EXACTLY.

Again.

A moderator will NOT give a scum a fakeclaim they cannot provide evidence of. Would you give scum whose power is roleblocker, say, a fakeclaim of 2-shot vigilante?

FUCK no. At least, god I hope you wouldn't!

A moderator is going to have fakeclaims match their given role.
Meaning, BBMolla's fakeclaim is: K2-SO, Town JOAT, with the powers of Deflect, Redirect, and Rolestop.

BBMolla's real role is: whatever the fuck Molla's scum role is, Scum JOAT, with the powers of Deflect, Redirect, and Rolestop.

This isn't that hard to understand.

[Infinity 324]

I mean, I assume scum got fakeclaims.

Yes. And presumably, they are fakeclaims of their real fucking role.

You don't get mods who make a scum roleblocker and give them a fakeclaim of vigilante.
(Okay. Maybe you DO, but those mods are absolutely shitty mods.)

You get mods who make a scum roleblocker and give them a fakeclaim of either roleblocker or jailkeeper or some variant role thereof.

Not that hard.

Is this really a thing? I haven't looked at a ton of scum fakeclaims in themes/been scum in themes but how can you be so confident fire wouldn't just...save certain town roles for scum fakeclaims and not give them to town?

(Actually, I do remember seeing a couple games which did things like that)

[Infinity 324]

A moderator will NOT give a scum a fakeclaim they cannot provide evidence of. Would you give scum whose power is roleblocker, say, a fakeclaim of 2-shot vigilante?

No, but like

How about BP

or doc

or cop

or hider

There's so many town roles which scum can plausibly claim without needing any special info. If fire just didn't give those specific roles to town, you can make plausible fakeclaims that don't have o be scum's real role.

Plus, VT!molla would still know he was vanillaized due to the special power so that's a plausible fakeclaim as well.

There's no reason to believe scum!molla was forced to claim his real role.

[ɀefiend]

OK, read the whole game. I have a lot of conflicting thoughts about many players, but at this point I am pretty confident that

@mastina

and

@Heartless

are town, so I would appreciate some help sorting through these thoughts and maybe pointing out things I missed.

I like

@Nero Cain

's points about Titus and I feel a lot of players are sleeping on her this game. However I do not like Nero's thoughts on mastina because his scumlean(?) read on her seems poorly or under-developed. I feel that mastina's defense against his concerns (re: the timeline of game events, and the motivations behind Pine and mastina's actions) was legitimate.

However, I also like

@Titus

' issues with Infinity. I do believe he has been opportunistic (hell, he even admitted as much D1) with respect to wagoning. His read on mastina also feels unnatural, propelled in part by a combination of paranoia and the general tendency of others (re: Nero & Heartless (at times)) to pressure her. On the other hand, I dislike the fact that Titus' scope and breadth of other players in the game is quite narrow. I would feel more comfortable with the slot if she attempted to engage others with more vigor.

I initially liked

@Infinity

's push to get the game rolling, so-to-speak, and that has always been a personal town-tell I use. I cannot definitively point to anything Infinity has pushed or pressured organically, but at the same time, he does ask beneficial questions and probe efficiently when things are "happening" in the thread. I feel uneasy about this slot, but not necessarily worried. Infinity, do you feel that Titus' game-long push on you is a non-issue?

I believe Heartless already asked this question, but

@DrunkenPiper

: if you tracked Pine to nacho N1, wouldn't you also have tracked him to BBmolla? If you didn't, isn't that confirmation that BBmolla is lying about being vanillaized? I don't know how Firebringer would resolve that but maybe you should ask him.

@SirCakez

: You asked me to specifically look at the Pine interactions. I noticed, while reading D1, that you continually regarded the Pine-wagon as a poor lynch. You and I both know that I have been burned by reading too heavily into something like that before (re: College Mafia, where you soft-defended scum on D1). The key difference this game, however, is that the scum in question has flipped earlier than 3-way LYLO, yet nobody else seems to be calling attention to these associations (besides Infinity's VCA). What exactly were you hoping I gleaned from analyzing the Pine interactions?

The LUV/Peregrine slot is actually pretty null for me and hopefully Peregrine will contribute more.

I am comfortable sheeping mastina on BBmolla -- his content is unsatisfactory, mastina pointed out a key logical fallacy (re: SirCakez--Aj the Epic D1 voting patterns) that seemed to get buried, and the gambit actually seems quite plausible.

I would also lynch Aj toDay for a collection of pinging behavior I recall from my reread. I would have to dig deeper and review to shore up that scumread, but for now I just wanted to get my initial thoughts out there.

[Infinity 324]

Infinity, do you feel that Titus' game-long push on you is a non-issue?

It's an annoying thing for sure, but it's not really alignment indicative imo.

[Infinity 324]

Mastin, are you sure we can't just lynch this guy instead? That post was a bunch of empty analysis and busy questions

[Infinity 324]

The question directed at cakez also feels quite fake

VOTE: zefiend

[BBmolla]

Molla literally could've claimed any role he wanted. Any role. That he claimed the particular role he claimed is completely NAI.

No, he couldn't.

If BBMolla claimed a role which was already in the game, he would be counterclaimed.

And then he'd be lynched, because the CCer would be town.

Molla had no choice but to claim his actual role when roleclaiming.

This is common fucking sense.

If you're not a cop, as scum, do you claim cop? Not unless you're specifically looking to be counterclaimed. The risk of the role being in the game would simply be too high. Now, granted. In select conditions, this may not apply. But in a theme game which is role-heavy, fuck yes it means you claim your real role 95% of the time because claiming anything else gets you lynched almost every time. (Within reason. Goon-->Vanilla; Godfather-->still Vanilla; Ninja-->stiiiiiill Vanilla; Strongman-->Yep, still claiming Vanilla. Roleblocker-->RB or maybe if you're feeling ambitious JK. VT is possible, of course. Rolecop-->Rolecop, Vanilla cop, if you're feeling ambitious Neapolitan, or maybe VT if you're a coward.)

uh

that literally goes against everything I've ever done when fake claiming

[BBmolla]

claiming your role as scum works maybe 10% of the time

[BBmolla]

also I'm the kind of kid who claims miller in a multiscum large, how boring do you think I am jesus christ

[BBmolla]

I claimed a percentage role in a game one time

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p6094183

heres my miller claim second post for no reason

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p6644254

[BBmolla]

my point is you make a lot of assumptions about how I would play that just aren't true

I fake claimed to be recieving amnesiac reports as a cop when I got a guilty on you mastin

I don't follow why you have this thought that I'm willing to be so boring. The vanillaizer gambit I would do, the rest of it doesn't fit though. Vanillaizer gambit would be my game plan strategy and my entire play would revolve around it, I'd bus the shit out of Pine and when he flips I'd coast into endgame. Why would i not capitalize on that here? Claiming vanillaized without a vanillaizer flip doesn't gain shit for town cred, seeing that vanillaizer flip is what would get me towncred.

I know I sound rambly but I'm doing whatever I can to make you realize this isn't how the game would play out with me as scum. it just isn't.

[Drunken Piper]

(As DP slept off his last tear, conversation exploded. but he saw this that caught his eye, he will do the other catch up later)

I believe Heartless already asked this question, but

@DrunkenPiper

: if you tracked Pine to nacho N1, wouldn't you also have tracked him to BBmolla? If you didn't, isn't that confirmation that BBmolla is lying about being vanillaized? I don't know how Firebringer would resolve that but maybe you should ask him.

you can do this math, if that was the case,
then I wouldnt be talking about BBmolla in this time and place.

hmm, think hard new guy, think hard, try not to use any aids.
and you will probably figure out that I am a...............

[SirCakez]

I need to reevaluate townreads since I was wrong about Pine and Klingon. I feel safe with this vote though.
VOTE: AJ

"I swear I'm going to reevaluate my reads, but here have a vote which...is not me reevaluating my reads".

It was a day entrance, and I was (and still am) busy when I posted that.

In fact, half the game didn't even want you to claim your abilities.

is this a fact or an alternative fact?

I have been very busy in the afternoons recently so I haven't been able to reread yet. Titus looks like scum on hiding so ya not changing my vote.

zefiend - given that Pine is our only flipped scum, thought it would be worthwhile for you to pay extra attention there. There wasn't really a special motive for it.

[PeregrineV]

I'm no where near having read the whole game, but I started with a Pine ISO and jumped into points there.

@Mastin-

My biggest issue with your claim is the point in time you came up with your Pine scumread (post 512).
You then "read", and confirm it with your vote 520.

this is followed by "Molla might be scum" (521). Based on progression, this read comes from:

Spoiler:

VOTE: Desperado

Y'all suck for not letting me OMGUS

UNVOTE:
VOTE: AJ

I think it's enormously likely scum participated in the player count discussion

alban probably town btw

Going back to the actual game at hand, I'm content with our vote on Titus because Pine brought up a good point that it feels off to have a strong personality saying she caught scum right out the gate but have the level-head to produce VCA which apparently she's good at doing.

this is dumb reasoning

not scum, but it's dumb

is this actually why people are voting titus

Titus does this shit like every game. Its null.

ding ding ding

VOTE: SirCakes

im vigging the ever loving shit out of drunken sailor, im not dealing with that self post restriction all game

oh yeah aj is still scum

Meanwhile, Pine tries to open dialogue with you in 517, never before talking to you or mentioning your name.
Then this stuff:

Spoiler:

How do you look at blank votes and pick what is town and what isn't town?

I use the force.

Or if you prefer, fuckin' voodoo shit.

Actually no, that answer means absolutely nothing. I'm still content with my question until I get a real answer.

/Gin

Actually no, that answer means absolutely nothing. I'm still content with my question until I get a real answer.

It was a real answer!

I'm force-sensitive! I know things.

I've read a lot of your articles and wiki links and I expect you to follow your own advice in looking in the motivations behind the post and not at face value.

First rule of mastina: do as I say, not as I do.
Second rule of mastina: If it doesn't look like I am doing as I am saying, there's at least a 50% chance you're reading it wrong and I am in fact doing exactly as I say.

Granted, there's the 50% chance that I did in fact not follow my own advice, but this? Not one of those times.

Think about that for a moment.

I've read a lot of your articles and wiki links and I expect you to follow your own advice in looking in the motivations behind the post and not at face value.

First rule of mastina: do as I say, not as I do.
Second rule of mastina: If it doesn't look like I am doing as I am saying, there's at least a 50% chance you're reading it wrong and I am in fact doing exactly as I say.

Granted, there's the 50% chance that I did in fact not follow my own advice, but this? Not one of those times.

Think about that for a moment.

Oh my god you're like a modern day sphinx

Okay no, seriously. How did you judge RVS votes as town/scum?

both ^^
/Gin

Okay no, seriously. How did you judge RVS votes as town/scum?

I'm force-sensitive, I told you already. I used the force.

Which looks like a bunch of /Gin posting

But, by 584, you have sloidifdied that Pine-a-tronics is scum.

At least she's Town this game.

Yes I am! You, however, are your usual scumfuck self!

And this:

Pine is also scum. I prefer to vote Pine, in spite of SirCakez being scum, because lynching scum is lynching scum. The who or the why isn't as important as the act itself. Obviously I'll vote SirCakez if I can't lynch Pine. That goes without saying. But Pine is the scum I would prefer to lynch, because my scumread there is not only stronger, it is also on a firmer basis (I know Pine better), with better reasons, and also on someone who WILL slip away if you let him go.

Meanwhile, neither head of the hydra tries really hard to break you from your read, nor do they try to engage you that I can see. If your sure Pine is scum based on his 5 posts, yet the Gin side does nothign to affect your read?

Sounds kind of fake.

Triple ISO of Pine-Mastin-Molla

Code: Select all

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?t=69912&f=3&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&user_select%5B%5D=28641&user_select%5B%5D=29138&user_select%5B%5D=16026&user_sort=Go

[Heartless]

Hi guys!
I'm woefully behind, but when I talked to Antihero last night about this game he sounded pretty frustrated so I'm going to try taking over for a while.
I'm going to have some free time to devote to this tonight. I'll catch up then. ^_^

-TTH

[Titus]

If you fuckers are going to lynch Molla, that will make this game unplayable for me in most regards. I am bet my life levels of confident Molla is town, and I lack the time or inclination to read through mountains of garbage when the truth is obvious.

No scum would fake being vanillaized before DP revealed his guilty.

So present me evidence of BBMolla knowing (which likely means scum in the hood) or this is just another distraction from Infinity scum or protecting Infinity scum.

DP, for BBMolla scum (which you leave open) you would nearly certain need someone to inform him of your cop check. You are not acting like that is a possibility. You are postulating that BBMolla scum and keeping the hood the same, which violates Occam's Razor.

Meanwhile, BBMolla is being a dumbass for claiming, so I cannot elect him Rogue Leader.

AJ is pants on head reading Molla today but right on Nero being a vindictive sack of shit, like he is regardless of alignment.

No one else is bothering with the spam those two put in the thread.


So tell me, who the fuck will take out the trash of Infinity and Nero along with them not playing Pants on Head level stupid? Yeah, I would vote that for Rogue Leader. Guess what, my townreads are also my dumb as fuck reads. So yeah, you are not getting my vote for Rogue Leader. No one is. I need to see intelligence and logical coherence, even if I disagree with it to vote Rogue Leader.

Right now, I just don't.

[Titus]

It's not like anyone needs it anyway, so I am outright protesting the stupidity of this group. If you insist on me voting for Rogue Leader, I will vote for myself. But I refuse to reward stupidity.

A rogue leader vote to me says, you're town and keep up what you are doing. Right now, that applies to no one.

[Titus]

I need to reevaluate townreads since I was wrong about Pine and Klingon. I feel safe with this vote though.
VOTE: AJ

"I swear I'm going to reevaluate my reads, but here have a vote which...is not me reevaluating my reads".

It was a day entrance, and I was (and still am) busy when I posted that.

In fact, half the game didn't even want you to claim your abilities.

is this a fact or an alternative fact?

I have been very busy in the afternoons recently so I haven't been able to reread yet. Titus looks like scum on hiding so ya not changing my vote.

zefiend - given that Pine is our only flipped scum, thought it would be worthwhile for you to pay extra attention there. There wasn't really a special motive for it.

This is scum too.

I am hiding? That's the lie you're going with.

Why the fuck are the legends damn stupid here?