Open 672: Friends and Enemies and Enemies: Music on a whim

[Big Lungs DK]

1. What's your favorite open setup?
2. What is your favorite/least favorite role?
3. Do you prefer town or scum?

1. Fire and Ice or Jungle Republic probably. I like multiball, which is why I joined this game
2. BP is my favorite, perfect for not getting shot by haters.
3. Town but I desperately want to play SK or Traitor

[cassielle]

There. That better?

[Realeo]

I'm very serious about getting a good read on him under some very light pressure.

That doesn't require that he's scummy at all, I don't think, it just is good practice. And it happens to be the case right now that, IMO, he's ever so slightly south of null. Everyone else who has posted so far is hard null or slightly north, so I'll put the spotlight where I think it belongs.

Oh God. We're going to have a semantic argument.

When someone says "I'm very serious," it usually mean "I'm very serious that you're scum."

Which you says

And, beyond that,

Superhans is my best bet for scum right now.

Obviously a bit too early to be certain, but it's enough for me to chase that thread down, so my vote is serious.

So I don't really buy your "very serious" reasoning.

After all, I still don't get how come not even "that" scummy? = best bet. I mean, maybe best bet = top scum, but your attitude is just entirely wrong?

[Realeo]

I am sheeping nebula because he feels fairly townie to me, based on this state of the game.

I know what his point is, and I'm not saying Superhans himself is scummy because of RQS.

Isn't that a contradiction? Are you a foreign speaker?

[Big Lungs DK]

ok realeo is town I think

[cassielle]

@Realeo: In my experience, this early in the game being serious about a vote just means you've left RVS.

For the next bit: I said, best bet. "Best bet" doesn't mean "def scum!" It means "most scum" -- that's really not hard to do right now for anyone, regardless of alignment. So I'm uncertain because it could be town who's bad at game start, but it's feeling ultra-light scumlean to me. That makes me curious. So why not try and follow it up so I can either get a better feeling for it or discard the read on the basis of better, more AI posts?

And WRT the apparent contradiction, I think you're confused because of the missing context. nebula feels fairly townie to me, when you factor in that there's not a lot to go off of yet. So I'm sheeping him because:
A: I don't mind being on a wagon with him
B: Wagons get the game jumpstarted
C: And I sort of like his wagon at the moment.

And I get his point about RQS -- RQS isn't scummy, this one is just no good for scumhunting. I was asking questions about why he disliked RQS to get a feel for /his/ alignment, not Superhans's. Superhans isn't scum on the basis of using RQS. There is, I think, a certain amount of potential bad faith in his gameplay WRT nebula (bit of a gutread to be fair), and that's what I'm looking at.

@Big Lungs: I agree.

[Realeo]

In my experience, this early in the game being serious about a vote just means you've left RVS.

We can agree on that.

And WRT the apparent contradiction, I think you're confused because of the missing context. nebula feels fairly townie to me, when you factor in that there's not a lot to go off of yet. So I'm sheeping him because:
A: I don't mind being on a wagon with him
B: Wagons get the game jumpstarted
C: And I sort of like his wagon at the moment.

Fair enough.

It feels awkward to me that

I know what his point is, and I'm not saying Superhans himself is scummy because of RQS.

He's not even "that" scummy, just the best bet of the players who have posted so far, in my eyes.

So you do not agree with the RVS~Scum, but you sheep him. Sheeping someone assumes that you agree with his reasoning, but you admit that his reasoning is NAI so what are you sheeping? It turns out when you say sheep, it's purely only on following the wagon action--regardless whether you sheep the reasoning or not.

UNVOTE:

Nice to have a business with you. I still find it awkward that you sheep an RVS wagon, but we can have some tolerance level.

[cassielle]

Yeah, I'm maybe sorta misusing "sheeping" here, but I'm from offsite and just starting to pick up the lingo. I suppose "wagoning" is a better word? Something like that?

The fastest way to get a lot of AI stuff out of people is to push a wagon while most players are in RVS, IMO. When people respond against the wagon-pushers, question them. When someone jumps on the wagon, question them. The AI content level can go way up and before long, RVS is over because everyone has a lot of AI content to dig into. Evidence: your ISO and mine. Before I pushed on that wagon, very little from either of us. After, quite a bit from both. It's weird but it works for me. The wagon not looking all that bad comparatively is just a bonus, to me.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

So it was mostly that RQS in particular then. Cool.

VOTE: Superhans

I wonder how serious Superhans's vote on nebula is.

Why are you sheeping Nebula?

Very. So? How about yours?

Doubt it.

I am sheeping nebula because he feels fairly townie to me, based on this state of the game. So do you, for that matter. In fact, when you voted me is when I read you as town -- felt like a town reaction to someone seemingly not getting the obvious, which is why I didn't respond to your vote. Felt unnecessary.

And, beyond that, Superhans is my best bet for scum right now. Obviously a bit too early to be certain, but it's enough for me to chase that thread down, so my vote is serious.

@Realeo: Why do you think I was wanting RQS? What leads you to that conclusion in particular? There's a couple angles that those questions could have come from, why pick that one?

Tone? Is that why you're town reading nebula? If so, what do you think about 26?

The thing about your scum read on SH is that it's not really your read. You're sheeping. I point that out again because nebula's reasoning for voting SH is for RQS. Your 18 strongly implies that you had no issue with Han starting the game the way he did or even the method itself. My issue with you is more than just your vote for Hans but your reasoning. Just because you town read someone, doesn't mean you have to follow their reasoning for the votes they cast. Based on your 18, I don't think you actually scum read Hans at all. I don't even think you want an early wagon on him either for analysis. I think you are just following because RQS is a fairly easy thing for scum to push.

[cassielle]

26 feels NAI. It is a tone read though, yeah.

And my scumread on Superhans is my read. It has nothing to do with the RQS and more to do with how I feel about the interactions with nebula after he called Superhans out. See 55, especially the bottom of it. It's very weak, as I stated multiple times when talking to Realeo, but it's the best I have right this moment. I'm hoping to get more as more people step up and provide contentful posts.

55 also addresses the point of those questions in 18.

[Lowell]

big lungs is town.

[cassielle]

Why? Any particular reason?

Hard null to me. Same with you.

[Realeo]

big lungs is town.

What is this defunct product?

[Lowell]

Ha. I'm a "hard null?" Okay.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

26 feels NAI. It is a tone read though, yeah.

And my scumread on Superhans is my read. It has nothing to do with the RQS and more to do with how I feel about the interactions with nebula after he called Superhans out. See 55, especially the bottom of it. It's very weak, as I stated multiple times when talking to Realeo, but it's the best I have right this moment. I'm hoping to get more as more people step up and provide contentful posts.

55 also addresses the point of those questions in 18.

You don't see the change in tone? He gets a bit aggressive over just a few simple questions.

So you're scum reading Hans because you find the way he's choosing to scum hunt bad? If so, why? Why do you think he was attempting to scum hunt on Page 1? How can you agree with it being bad without giving it time? Why didn't you suggest a different set of RQS questions?

[Lil Uzi Vert]

Ha. I'm a "hard null?" Okay.

What's the problem?

[Lowell]

It's a dumb phrase. An adjective full of conviction and a noun without it.

[cassielle]

You don't see the change in tone? He gets a bit aggressive over just a few simple questions.

So you're scum reading Hans because you find the way he's choosing to scum hunt bad? If so, why? Why do you think he was attempting to scum hunt on Page 1? How can you agree with it being bad without giving it time? Why didn't you suggest a different set of RQS questions?

I got the same feeling of irritation from him from the very start. Might just be how he's approaching this game. It's a fairly weak townread, though, and if I see anything more AI from his end I'll re-evaluate.

No, no, the Superhans read is nothing to do with scumhunting -- the RQS doesn't do scumhunting well by the way it's set up. Because any AI questions have an obvious town answer, to the point that trying to pull a read out of any "non" town answers is WIFOM-hell at the best of times. That, in and of itself, is NAI. Could just be he sucks with RQS. It's to do with his reaction to nebula's critique of it.

It's a dumb phrase. An adjective full of conviction and a noun without it.

Hard null: I don't have the slightest idea what your alignment is, not even a tiny bit of an idea or intuitive feeling. For now, I need to see more of you. If a hard null read stays that way into the end of D1, I scumread them by default because town has no reason to hide alignment... Y'know, trust town to find town and all of that goodness.

[Lowell]

No prob. The suspense is killing me.

[cassielle]

Why didn't you suggest a different set of RQS questions?

Almost forgot about this.

Because I saw a way to bypass that stage by jumping on a wagon with minimal explanation and implying I have a good reason to be there. I did see a (weakly) good reason to be there, but by not saying it outright it forces people to react. You can move right past RVS and RQS to the meat of the game that way. It's a risky move for town but it pays off often, so I take the risk.

[Superhans]

ok realeo is town I think

played with Realo before, initially thought he was VI (sorry :z) but he's actually really really good as town. idk about his scum game but this is kinda how he played all of last game as town.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

You don't see the change in tone? He gets a bit aggressive over just a few simple questions.

So you're scum reading Hans because you find the way he's choosing to scum hunt bad? If so, why? Why do you think he was attempting to scum hunt on Page 1? How can you agree with it being bad without giving it time? Why didn't you suggest a different set of RQS questions?

I got the same feeling of irritation from him from the very start. Might just be how he's approaching this game. It's a fairly weak townread, though, and if I see anything more AI from his end I'll re-evaluate.

No, no, the Superhans read is nothing to do with scumhunting -- the RQS doesn't do scumhunting well by the way it's set up. Because any AI questions have an obvious town answer, to the point that trying to pull a read out of any "non" town answers is WIFOM-hell at the best of times. That, in and of itself, is NAI. Could just be he sucks with RQS. It's to do with his reaction to nebula's critique of it.

It's a dumb phrase. An adjective full of conviction and a noun without it.

Hard null: I don't have the slightest idea what your alignment is, not even a tiny bit of an idea or intuitive feeling. For now, I need to see more of you. If a hard null read stays that way into the end of D1, I scumread them by default because town has no reason to hide alignment... Y'know, trust town to find town and all of that goodness.

Hans didn't react to it, he just ignored it. Are you talking about his 28?

[cassielle]

Yes, but earlier, too. See 14 for context and scroll downward. The responses of Superhans on that page are awkward to read and 28 has a... I dunno, it doesn't feel good-faith. It's a super weak read, again, but it's the best I got to go off of for now.

nebula feels a bit fishy at end of page 1, but 26 gives me a feeling that's just a general orneriness to his playstyle, and shouldn't be read into too closely -- yet. Good things come to those who wait.

[LicketyQuickety]

I still don't have 10 confirms yet, but I have a couple people lined up to replace so hopefully the game can start sometime today.

[nebula]

Soo....nothing even matters. Probably should have re-read post 1.

PRE-GAME.