drealmerz7's Mini Normal Review

[drealmerz7]

I meant to have 2 goons with the 2 PRs actually - increases their chance of mislynch in a 8/4/1 (I know those odds seem crazy scum-sided, but balance comes in association and percentages)

[mhsmith0]

9/3/1 as presented is probably scum sided (presuming that you just meant to add a vt). Imo 8/4/1 is not a reasonable setup given site norms for mini normals. Iirc we've never had a four man scum team or five scum overall in a 13p mini normal game.

I may dig to find that, but it's sufficiently far outside balance norms that I'm extremely uncomfortable w it as a concept barring decent evidence that it would actually match up w any kind of precious history. Scum PRs are pretty op, and given extra numbers to boot, I think it's a problematic combo.

[drealmerz7]

are you able to easily run through some Night-permutations? it's a hard thing for me to do because I don't have the experience with just "seeing" how all the NAs resolve, but I'm very curious to see at least 3 different permutations and see what happens

at game start it is 38% chance to lynch scum

[drealmerz7]

and I think that increases even more because of all associations they have to be careful about - scum often maneuver around each other's wagons a bit, and it is harder to do here, and more damning if you don't bus or try to protect a scumbuddy with a PR

[drealmerz7]

not just around each other's wagons, around each other's reads

1 will support another's reads and it is easily hidden in the higher #s of town, it's a lot harder to hide in these numbers

[drealmerz7]

pushing a wagon through to lynch becomes more sketch and more likely to have town analyze scum on it correctly after a flip, or even if they don't analyze the scum correctly, odds more often will favor them

"well someone was clearly scum on that wagon, maybe even 2" and so they start looking to lynch on the wagon and are simply more likely to get scum because of odds

[drealmerz7]

it encourages scum HAVING to fake scum-reads on scumbuddies instead of just remaining silent, ambivilent, uncertain, and getting excused for not "being right" about the scum

[drealmerz7]

yeah, I'm really liking the 8v4v1 permutations I'm seeing and really want to try it that way and totally will give it a "accepted for normalcy but reviewers consider scumsided" sort of announcement

but I am not really convinced it is, actually, I like the balance quite a bit (:

(yeah yeah)

[Firebringer]

I am kind of waiting on what the setup is going to be because you are all over the place here a bit Dreal.

[drealmerz7]

post 45

[Nexus]

I'm going to veto 8/4/1 immediately.

It's not

normal

. There are certain expectations with the Normal Queue, and that goes against them. So unless you're going to run it as open and say "guys this is an 8/4/1", then I'm afraid I won't pass it for balance/normality.

Run an 8/4/1 in the mini theme queue. Run something more normal - 9/1/3 or 10/3 or 10/2/1 here, please.

[drealmerz7]

would that be a veto for 8/3/1 as well?

if so I'll make it 9/3/1 and tweak a little more

[Nexus]

8/3/1 still doesn't seem great.

[drealmerz7]

how about 8v3? probably tweak the roles a little

[drealmerz7]

I think I like 9v3v1 better though, just tossing things around

[drealmerz7]

I'm loving it a bit

TOWN:

2-shot BulletProof JailKeeper
1-shot BulletProof 1-shot Strongman 2-Shot Vigilante
1-shot BulletProof Compulsive BodyGuard
BodyGuard
5VanillaTown

SCUM:

2-shot Strongman 2-shot RoleBlocker - can't strongmanKill + RB on same Night }
1-shot Strongman 1-shot Doctor - can't strongmanKill + doc on same Night } groupscum -
Goon }

1-shot BulletProof 2-shot Strongman Serial Killer

[drealmerz7]

might make it 1-shot BP JK instead of 2-shot BP

I really prefer x for all of the things - it's usual for my HS - it varies from mod to mod on there so there is no way to "confirm" really

2x-BulletProof JailKeeper
1x-BulletProof 1x-Strongman 2x-Vigilante
1x-BulletProof Compulsive BodyGuard

2x-Strongman 2x-RoleBlocker
1x-Strongman 1x-Doctor

1x-BulletProof 2x-Strongman Serial Killer

[drealmerz7]

they aren't "shots" for JKs, docs, BP modifer, they're "times", "times" = "x"

[drealmerz7]

what're the words, turds?

[drealmerz7]

oh and definitely only 1 BP on the JK, otherwise it's all where I am currently in post 65

[mhsmith0]

a history of 9/3/1 from 1400 on

Spoiler:

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=29549

9/3/1 mini normal games
1410 town win
non-consec jk/gunsmith/neighborizer
goon/goon/bp
non-consec day SK

1420 sk win
tracker/doctor/neighbor
3xgoon

1433 town win
tracker/doctor/nurse
3xgoon
sk

1466 town win
odd tracker / even watcher / bg / neighborizer
2xgoon/jk
1-shot bp sk

1454 mafia win
macho cop / doc / nurse / JOAT / 2-shot commuter
2xgoon/role cop
SK

1469 mafia win
odd doc / joat / IC
3x goon
1-shot commuter sk

1579 mafia win
cop / backup cop / 2shot dayvig
godfather / 2x goon
bp sk

1620 mafia win
2x mason / doc / backup neighbor
encryptor / even cop / traitor neighbor
1-shot BP neighbor sk

1680 mafia win
JOAT / tracker / 2-shot gs
3x goon
odd night sk / even night fruit vendor

1690 mafia win
1-shot bp cop / even night vig / JOAT / cop enabler / 2x neighbor
traitor / encryptor / 3-shot roleblocker
sk

1706 mafia win
cop / doc / even night vig
2x goon / voyeur
godfather 1-shot BP fruit vendor sk

1716 mafia win
2x mason / neighborizer / bg
3x goon
1-shot BP sk

1862 town win
ascetic enabler / 2-shot cop / jk / 3-shot neighborizer
goon/ascetic/traitor encryptor enabler
1-shot BP SK

Scum do not need ANYTHING like the power you're giving them.

I'm fine with scum having something like (if you want everyone to have something)

2 1-shot roleblockers
1 1-shot doc
(or a 1-shot strongman, a 1-shot rb, and a 1-shot doc if you'd prefer)

and the SK has a 1-shot BP, MAYBE a 1-shot strongman too

then you can take all the BPs off of the town PRs, which is both non-normal and unnecessary given that you'd give scum a huge # of strongman shots anyway, and you're left with


town
jailkeeper
2-shot vig
bodyguard
compulsive bodyguard
5 VT

scum
three 1-shot roles

SK
1-shot BP, maybe a 1-shot strongman too

[drealmerz7]

did you take into account those games having daychat or not? mine will not have day chat (which I think makes scum much more powerful)

taking a look at your notes

[Firebringer]

What's new?

[drealmerz7]

smith, I want all of the WIFOM of the BPs+strongman shots mixed with the RB, JK, Doc stuff

"then you can take all the BPs off of the town PRs, which is both non-normal and unnecessary given that you'd give scum a huge # of strongman shots anyway, and you're left with"

it's non-normal? like it actually doesn't pass the setup anyway because that much isn't allowed in "normal" ? is that what you mean? or it's just not normal (like, I'm not normal)

[drealmerz7]

I like them having to choose between doing the kill with strongman or using their ability - it's fun deciding and tactical decision making

I'm taking potential claimings into consideration with all of this and the balance and how it would unfold potentially in various runs