Mafia 73: NEGWLTWWWTKY - Abandoned!

[Albert B. Rampage]

el numero uno MMM HMM MMMM

[Peers]

Why are you totally ignoring Yosarian2 and hasdfas, by the by?

Because Yosarian's responded to every attack you've launched on him, and the last time I voted for hasdaflag you decided I was scummy, so there's no point in me mentioning him either way, now is there?

[Toaster Strudel]

[Toaster Strudel]

Why are you totally ignoring Yosarian2 and hasdfas, by the by?

Because Yosarian's responded to every attack you've launched on him,

He has not... not by a long shot.

and the last time I voted for hasdaflag you decided I was scummy,

Referring to your first vote? Oh, yes, you can't vote hasdsfas, even if you think he's scum, in case the Toaster might think you're scum!

so there's no point in me mentioning him either way, now is there?

You're right! Don't mention Yosarian2, don't vote fo hassdgfas, attack me instead!!! You know what you sound like? You sound like totally panicked scum. And now, totally panicked scum that's given up. I approve.

[Yosarian2]

...and when he was called on it, he instead insisted that his MOS vote was a "policy lynch", which makes even less sense. I certanly think his behavior there deserves a vote, don't you?

You said you'd vote MoS until he makes sense, and Quag until he read his role PM. Please state ahead of time what Kaleidoscope has to do for you to later the derail the wagon you are starting

Ok. For the record, any time any person looks scummier to me then the person I am currently voting for, I will change my vote to that person.

As a side note; are you trying to debate me, or are you trying to actually listen to my answers? Because you seem much more interested in trying to shoot holes in everything I say then in trying to understand what I'm saying, to the point where you're even shooting large numbers of holes in a post that you had no problems with with several pages ago. And this kind of thing has gone badly for you before, where you've done a reasonable piece of analyis but then refused to re-think anything and continued to continualsy attack that person while ignoring everything they say over and over again. It dosn't make me necessarally think you're scum, since last time you locked onto me like this was in Vanillia Mafia where we were both pro-town, but it's not helpful.

Not to any standard of logic. You haven't explained why you believe everything Quagmire says, but you're skeptical of other players.

I'm skeptical of everyone. I think the most likely explination is that Quagmire told the truth on those two occasions. But, again, even if I'm right about that that wouldn't actually be a sign of pro-town-ness on his part.

I so totally have, like, over and over.

"Perhaps he lied in mafia discussion several months ago" is NOT a logical hole in my thinking.

You have failed to give LOGICAL, BELIEVABLE reasons why you are so eager to take Quagmire's nonsense as the truth, Quagmire who has policy voted me, Quagmire who has jerked us around, Quagmire whom you've allowed to go claimless, Quagmire who has pulled his stunt as scum, Quagmire who continues to vote me (a player you now feel might just be town).

Sounds like you're reacting quite emotionally here, and like there might be an element of OMGUS in your attacks on Quagmire. It also sounds like you're assuming everything Quagmire says is nonesense at least partly because you are annoyed with him, both for the "I didn't read my PM" thing (which annoyed me too) and because he voted you and is continuing to vote you.

Is that why you stayed on his wagon so hard and pushed so hard for him to be lynched? Is that why you're so agressivly attacking me mostly because I disagreed with you and didn't want to actually lynch Quagmire over the PM thing?

[Peers]

Yay, I have the approval of someone who threw a hissy-fit, said they were quitting the site, and then decided to start playing the game again! With such rational behavior approving of me, I should go slit my wrists now before I realize just how bad things have gotten!

[Toaster Strudel]

Yay, I have the approval of someone who threw a hissy-fit, said they were quitting the site, and then decided to start playing the game again! With such rational behavior approving of me, I should go slit my wrists now before I realize just how bad things have gotten!

Haha. You can't be talking about me, because you don't have my approval! Pretty lame defense... is there a defense? Is there a comment on the points I brought up?



See? That's you on the toast. ...on the left...

Anyway... with this I will end my toastrampage. The rest of you can stew in the jam cooking pot and make up your minds one way or another. I've sucked enough fun out of the game! for now.

[Peers]

Haha. You can't be talking about me, because you don't have my approval!

Really? Post 778:

I approve.

You can't even keep straight what you've posted in the last hour. Astonishing.

[Toaster Strudel]

Haha. You can't be talking about me, because you don't have my approval!

Really? Post 778:

I approve.

You can't even keep straight what you've posted in the last hour. Astonishing.

Include the whole context... which was: "And now, totally panicked scum that's given up. I approve."

Still ignoring the case against hasdfdafdas and Yosarian, Peers?

Come on. What are your thoughts? You have the floor, and my undivided attention. I want to know what you think.

[Peers]

Yosarian has answers your case on Yosarian better than I ever could.

And your case on hasdaflag includes, as one of the more important parts of it, that he's distancing himself from his scumbuddy -- me. Since I read my PM, I know my alignment and know this is false -- which kinda takes away a good portion of your case against him.

So yes, I am ignoring your cases, since they've both been answered and/or had holes big enough to drive a Mack Truck through in them.

[Toaster Strudel]

And your case on hasdaflag includes, as one of the more important parts of it, that he's distancing himself from his scumbuddy -- me.

Not the most important, though: here's a reminder.

Analyzing:

hasdfas a.k.a. "God forbid we should lynch Quagmire"

Special love for MoS

Post #0 - semi-random vote: Mastermind of Sin. What's that all about?
Post #1 - Wimpy rebuttal after being attacked for a "semi-random" vote. What's that all about?
Post #11 - http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 349#834349 - what's that all about?
Post #17 - http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 485#853485 - pays special attention to MoS, asking him reasons for voting Jordan. What's that all about?

Contradicts himself

Post #3 - berates votes unsupported by reasons.
Post #4 - votes Peers unsupported by reasons.
Post #5 - is sad that Jordan, schis, and ABR aren't berated for voting without reason.
Post #6 - defends himself against the players that noticed his contradictions.

Admits to a complete lack of independent thinking

Post #8 - admits his reasons for voting Peers are exactly the same as other players.
Post #10 - repeats his reason are exactly the same as other players, saying "See: everyone's posts about him."

Meekly defends Sikario8

Post #12 - "leaning town on Sikario."
Post #13 - keeps up pressure on the main Peers wagon, away from Sikario8.

Defends Quagmire early on, in the middle, and at the end of the wagon

Even defends people that aren't voting Quag!!!

Votes players that (ack!) suggest we should lynch Quag!!!

Does not even question that Quagmire may be lying about it

Post #20 - Not reading role PM isn't anti-town, because the Day 1 lynch is random.
Post #21 - Thinks it's really pro-town not to read your PM,

especially if Quagmire is scum.

Post #22 - Maintains, against common sense, that Quag not reading his PM is really pro-town.
Post #23 - "just because someone [...] doesn't want to lynch Quag doesn't make them scum."
Post #23 - Quag not reading his role PM is

really great!!!

Post #24 - Attacks AND FOS's Sikario8 for going as far as saying we should

actually lynch

Quag.
Post #30 - Demands more pressure be put on Peers, a nice old wagon he might be able to revive.

Strudel must be done away with

Post #34 - "TS doesn't seem to be here to defend herself. We can make the mod's job a lot easier if we lynch someone that scummy today."
WOW. I'm surprised that post didn't jump at people.
Post #13 - keeps up pressure on the main Peers wagon, away from Sikario8.

Directs the vig

Post #34 - towards Peers. Why?

Because, hasdfas says:
Let's VIG Peers is still here to

defend himself

.
Let's LYNCH TS, who is

not here to defend herself

.

IN SUMMARY

(1) I don't know what's going on with the defense, then fleeting accusations against Sikario8. Maybe some other player can try to interpret this?
(3) That special attention hasdfas pays MoS...
(2) Just like Yosarian, defends Quagmire.
(4) Just like Yosarian, wants to get rid of me - does not state his own reasons as usual; relies on other people's.
(5) Dear players, please ask yourself what agenda hasdfas might have, that he'd want to lynch the person that can't defend herself, and vig the person that can. Please please please ask yourselves.

Another hour, another long long long post... just me sucking the fun out of the game as usual. I just make games stagnate and lose their focus. I apologize!

[Albert B. Rampage]

Guys TS is pro-town, even though she beats herself down.

[Peers]

And your case on hasdaflag includes, as one of the more important parts of it, that he's distancing himself from his scumbuddy -- me.

Not the most important, though: here's a reminder.

Hrm.

Okay.

Vote: Hasdaflag

[Albert B. Rampage]

The jury has reached a verdict.

[schismatized]

CAN WE PLEASE JUST AGREE ON SOMEONE TO KILL?

[Albert B. Rampage]

Yes. We have reached a consensus. Hasd is the scum.

[hasdgfas]

All right, my re-read is complete.
The basics of it right now because I don't have much time
TS looks far more pro-town to me than before. I have no idea how I got on her being scum. I'm not a big fan of MoS's contributions. I don't think Quagmire needed to mention that he didn't read his role. There was no point in stating it when he did.

FoS: Quag.

I don't think it deserves a vote, because we don't need to get back on that issue right now.
Schis is lurking and just coming in for bandwagons.

FoS: schis

There are a bunch of people who need either major prodding or replacement.

However, I still feel that Peers is scum. He has not done anything this game that has changed my mind on his alignment.

unvote, vote:Peers

More probably coming when I have more time.

Your glaring, complete and utter lack of mention of Yosarian2 is noted.

The slapdash nature of your analysis leads me to believe you have re-read absolutely nothing at all. Why should you? You're caught scum, aren't you.

I. Was. Rushed. I wanted to get something out there before I had to go to work for basically the entire day. I wasn't closely looking at Yosarian2 because that would take more time than I had. Of course it's slapdash because I was rushed. I did re-read the entire game, but not in great detail. No, I'm not caught scum because I'm not scum at all. Plus, I still think Peers is scum. Have you read his posts in isolation? Please do that and then tell me that he is not clearly the scummiest one here.

However, if you're going to continue thinking that I'm scum based mostly on the fact that I was defending Quag, then please look more closely at MoS, who was doing the same thing. k? thanks.

But now, just to please you, even though I may not agre, I will look more closely at Yos2 at then get back with my thoughts.

[Toaster Strudel]

However, if you're going to continue thinking that I'm scum based mostly on the fact that I was defending Quag, then please look more closely at MoS, who was doing the same thing. k? thanks.

But now, just to please you, even though I may not agre, I will look more closely at Yos2 at then get back with my thoughts.

Thank you for looking at Yos more closely, and I look forward to your analysis.

Also, can you help out, and make a detailed post about MoS's defense of Quag?

I've spent more time on mafia this week that I should

I hope you can do it soon.

[hasdgfas]

All right, back to the Quag situation, even though it creates an electric atmosphere.

Here are MoS's contributions to the discussion of Quag's role PM.

This gives us an advantage because he's playing as a townie.

He is not playing as a townie, he is playing as Quagmire, that is, he is completely useless.

Are you even paying attention, hasdgfas? He's pulled that "I didn't read my role PM" in another game, and he was scum. When Quagmire does that, it becomes a scumtell.

Who doesn't read their role PM with much anticipation? It doesn't make any sense, it's not believable, and, I'll say it again, he does that as scum.

This is perhaps the worst argument I have ever seen. This argument shames BM, seriously. But that's besides the point. I'll cut the ad hom out of the important stuff below:

In the only other game where Quag announced that he hadn't read his role PM, he *was* scum. But what TS conveniently forgot to mention is that in that other game, the mechanics could seriously benefit someone who could survive Day 1, since several protown people could die before Quag ever "read" his role pm. In that case, it makes sense for a scum to try saying they haven't read their role pm. However, in this game, that incentive is not there. There is no reason for scum to claim that they haven't read their role pm on Day 1. He's going to know his role tonight, so we haven't really lost much by him not knowing his role today. Since there is no benefit for Quag-scum to act this way, the benefits from his move are gained for once. In the other game where he pulled this, the dangers to the town far outweighed the benefits. However, in this game, not reading his role pm *does* allow Quagmire to objectively analyze people and call out scum. I don't agree with this strategy as I think it goes against the spirit of the game, but I there is NO reason for Quagmire to do this as scum. The only logical explanation is that he actually hadn't read his role pm, and to assert otherwise is just being opportunistic and illogical.

This was his first post defending Quag. He brings, IMO, a better argument than me, because he says that the different mechanics of the other game in which he claims he didn't read his role caused him claiming that to be better for him. In this game, there is no reason for him to claim this, so why would he lie?

Everyone voting Quagmire needs to unvote or present a case better than "he said he hadn't looked at his role pm, he could be lying!"

Do I really need to say anything about this statement?

I'd rather lynch someone who is scum than someone who is useless for Day 1. Considering that there are actually people who seem like scum right now, we're better off lynching then than Quagmire.

This looks a lot like what I was saying about looking for something besides Quagmire.

I'd rather lynch someone who is scum than someone who is useless for Day 1. Considering that there are actually people who seem like scum right now, we're better off lynching then than Quagmire.

I'm not so sure. I find it hard to see a mentality for Quag's play atm that falls in the protown category. If he doesnt want to play the game, Day 1 is the best time to get rid of him, as it also gains us info.

If we dont see anyone really standing out as scummy by the end of the day, i'm happy to just lynch him and be done with it.

BM

How can you assign an alignment to his mentality at all? The base assumption is that he hasn't read his role pm. Therefore, he doesn't know if he is protown or scum yet, so you obviously cannot make the assumption that he is scum OR town.

Everyone in the town would rather lynch scum than someone who is useless; that's the game. But in this case, nobody can agree just who seems scummy. At least, no more than a few people can agree. Quag is the first person the whole town has really gotten together on, to push to the point of hammering. It's day 1, we don't have much to go on and Quag sent up a huge signal fire to distract us.

I'd rather continue discussing things and come up with more suspects then decide Quagmire is a good compromise vote just because we can't decide on anyone else. The town has gotten together on Quagmire for no good reason. Just because they got together doesn't make it justified or good play.

Again, saying let's not lynch Quag just because he says he hasn't read his role PM.

Sikario, why attack Has and not myself? I agree with Has's stance about Quagmire. Pursuing him today is NOT useful to the town in any way. This setup has

NO

incentive for Quagmire to pull a stunt like this as scum, so we'd only be getting lucky if he died and came up scum. Given that he has a much higher probability of being town than scum, we're taking a crapshoot in the dark here just because we don't like that he didn't read his role pm. It's a bullshit justification for people trying to push a bad wagon on Day 1. And you trying to set up a 1-2 lynch on Quag and Has doesn't make it any better.

And now calling out someone for trying to set up a Quag-me chain lynch because I was defending him in this instance.

MoS says that he agrees with my stance, and he has posted so multiple times. While I may have posted on it a couple more times (or not, I didn't really count them), he felt the same way about the Quag situation and tried to keep the lynch from happening just about as much as I did. If we're talking about defense of Quag as our reasoning for votes, MoS

HAS

to be mentioned.

Now, on to continue my re-read of Yos2.

[hasdgfas]

All right, Yos2 has been re-read and now I will put in my thoughts. I'm going to use TS's wonderful little analysis here to state my thoughts on these posts, and then add a little summary at the end.

(my comments in red)

Here's another contribution that is going to suck the fun out of the game and that no one will appreciate, especially Yosarian2.

Yosarian2 a.k.a. "The Wagon Derailing Machine"

Defends BM, argues with Panzer

Post #0 -

Rails against Panzer for voting BM

Asking Panzer for clarification is not the same as railing on someone.

Post #1 -

Rails against Panzer for voting BM some more, feels strongly about votes against BM being really scummy.

He doesn't like Panzer's vote because it can be seen as trying to get an easy lynch, which would be a very bad thing. BM is not always scum so lynching him all the time is bad.

Post #2 - Rails against Panzer for voting BM some more, vehemently protects BM concerning a really big scary page 1 vote.

What do you mean by that?

Post #3 - Absurd argument with Peers over the worth of random vs. non-random page 1 votes.

argument?

Post #4 - Votes

Neo-Viper

on account of his vote against BM being even scummier than Panzer's, defends the "easy lynch" BM.

Wow, you know, trying to stop a lynch of BM because he's BM is such a scummy thing to do, after all. It's not like BM has a better chance to be town than scum

Switched off arguing with Panzer, defends hasdfas

This post is a kicker. So I am giving you all the link so that you can see for yourselves:
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 765#830765
Post #6 - Suddenly likes Panzer. Extracts two posts from hasdfas. Quote #1: "As he well knows, I like reasons behind votes" Quote #2: "ok. this bandwagon seems to have more behind it than the BM one. unvote, vote:peers"
Why is this post especially interesting? That's because he voted Neo-Viper for far sillier reasons. hasdfas, however, who has sinned twice as much as Neo-Viper, is not vote-worthy. Why not?
Here's more bizarre stuff:
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 300#832300

I have no idea what you're trying to get at here. his post 6 looks like him asking me for the reasoning behind my vote, which is not scummy at all.

Post #7 - This is followed by a vote on Sikario8, without explanations. Remember how Yosarian2 berated players that did not give explanations earlier in the game and even voted for them.

berated?

Post #8 - Here Yosarian2 explains why he's voting Sikario8. Pay attention:
"Sikario8's lurking, followed by a "I'm alive and reading" post, was scummy.

His hasdgfas vote also seemed a bit odd.

And when I voted for him because of that, he fos'd me for voting him? Not helping."

Yes, not the greatest of reasoning. An interesting observation, but not much by itself.

Attacks MoS but not too much

Post #20 - "Anyway, I move that we just keep piling votes on MOS until he starts making sense." Not lynch; just pile votes.

Did you read the next sentence in his post? It gives a good reason for this action

Post #23 - Interrupts MoS wagon in favor of a Quagmire wagon. Not lynch; just for him to read his role PM.

Right, so we can then stop talking about that ridiculous episode. He'll have read his role PM, a claim would have been nice but didn't happen, so we can get back to scumhunting rather than being angry about Quag not knowing his role. He wants to try to keep the town on track by getting a distraction out of the way

Starts Quagmire wagon but derails it last minute without demanding a claim as proof of reading the PM

Attacks MoS

Post #25 - Unvotes Quagmire for fear of (argh!) a Quagmire hammer.

Oh No! He doesn't want a lynch of someone before they can actually start talking? What a terrible thing to do! Yes, a claim would have been nice, but it didn't happen.

Post #26 - Back to voting MoS as promised.
Post #27 - When Yosarian2 is asked to explain why he unvoted Quagmire on his word that he read him PM, he answers: "He could very well be scum, the whole thing could have been a scum gambit or he might have just discovered that he was scum, but eh, now that we've shut down the whole "I didn't read my PM" thing,

I think MOS is scummier looking.

"

Someone being scummier in Yos's eyes than Quag is bad?

Attacks TS for voting Quag; defends Quag

Post #27 - Players voting for Quag are looking for "easy lynch."

It would have been an easy lynch, because everyone was so worked up over it that they wouldn't care.

Post #28 - Defends Quag, punctuated with smiley emoticons.

Are your numbers correct?

Post #29 - Strongly defends Quag against Sikario8 argument.
Post #30 - Yosarian's scumlist: 1. Toaster Strudel (for voting Quag) 2. Mastermind of Sin (to keep with his earlier promise)
3. Sikario8 (for voting Quag).
Post #34 - Very worried about TS: "Might as well just lynch her now, rather then make the mod replace her so we can lynch the replacement."

Defends ABR

Post #30 - "Well, you know, the case on ABR really dosn't have any substance."

Suddenly switches gear and defends MoS

Post #35 - "MOS's TS vote actually makes perfect sense, she really did look quite scummy." and: "that you're scum

hoping to get a mislynch

based on emotion" - isn't this strange given that Yosarian2 has been calling MoS "scum" all along and MoS is #2 on this scumlist?

IN SUMMARY

(1) Yosarian defends a lot of players.

In my experience

, this is something that scum tends to do to gain credibility later in the game, and also "to mix things up" with false leads.
(2) Yosarian tends to derail a lot of wagons, to slow them down, and to switch allegiance.
(3) Yosarian has come down hard on MoS early on, but now attacks players that vote for MoS (who Yosarian claims to think is scum), and calls these players scum.
(4) Yosarian has come down on Quag, but has saved him from the hammer, on the flimsiest of pretenses.

I'm giving the information.

Draw your own conclusions.

My summary:
I really don't see much of anything scummy about Yos2. His defenses have been for good reasons and seem more like town play than scum trying to get on the town's good side. From what I saw after looking at his posts in isolation, he seems to be making good points for the most part. I'm not sure whether I agree with him on everything or not, but he has done what he has said he would do, and I haven't seen anything really scummy from him yet. I'm not sure why you feel so vehemently about him being scum. Perhaps you could point out your two biggest problems with him so I can see what you see, because right now, I'm not seeing it at all.

Note that this is only up until TS's post that I quoted here. I'm going to look at the discussion amongst TS and Yos after this.

[Toaster Strudel]

Thank you for your insight.

I'll point out that an experienced, smooth player like Yos is bound to leave

subtle

clues if at all.

Would you be able to repeat the exercize with Peers, since you believe him to be the scummiest player?

Would you also be able to evaluate MoS's

other

contributions, those that have nothing to do with the Quagwagon?

[Shanba]

Vote Count:

3: MoS

(JordanA24, Kscope, Panzerjager)

3: Kscope

(Zu_Faul, Yosarian2, schismatized)

3: hasdgfas

(ABR, Peers, Toaster Strudel)

3: Peers

(Mert, Erg0, hasdgfas)

2: Quagmire

(Elmo, Battle Mage)

2: Toaster Strudel

(Quagmire, MoS)

2: Sikario8

(Neo-Viper9, Sir Tornado)

1: ABR

(Sikario8)

Not voting:

Apologies for all the delays, problems, etc, lack of votecounts. Thank you for your patience. Major proddage going out and some replacements being sought.

[Toaster Strudel]

Do we have a volunteer for an unbiased, post-by-post analysis of Quagmire?

=======================

Once we've got this all done, I'll crunch all the numbers we have in my scumputer, and post the calculations and the output. It's kinda become my personal challenge to test my theories in real-life, and using cold hard data - even day 1 data. So far it works much better than I'd expect. Not perfect, but pretty amazingly good. When the game ends it'll be fun to go back and see the accuracy.

[Yosarian2]

CAN WE PLEASE JUST AGREE ON SOMEONE TO KILL?

Personally, I'm happy with my vote where it is. At least until he comes back and explaines exactally why he thought "policy lynching" MOS at this point in the game was a good idea.

[KaleiÐoscøpe]

I actually made that comment of MoS' big letter post, which implied policy lynching. The reason I'm voting MoS is for his contradiction he states.