Open 672: Friends and Enemies and Enemies: Music on a whim

[Laudandus]

My teams atm are Cassielle + Laudandus

You think cass is promising to hard bus her scumbuddy day 2?

[Tenshii]

You think cass is promising to hard bus her scumbuddy day 2?

Yea. Ftr, promises don't mean shit. Especially in this context. She's been actively trying to avoid activity on your slot. With the promise of delaying to D2.

[Laudandus]

Do you think that you're actively avoiding activity on every slot except mine?

[LicketyQuickety]

Prodding: Revan

Seeking replacement for alban.

[Superhans]

Okay iv read up to pages 51 and Joey has been kicked.

Most obvious thing to say which isn't that helpful:
TRG and Joey are obviously not scum on the same team.

I'm going to throw fuel onto this fire. I have absolutely no sense of self-preservation and Realeo's warnings that I'm mentally burnt out need to be validated.

VOTE: TheRealGin-N-Tonic

On a serious note, I'm all for this. But I don't want your defense and won't accept it. I simply find your playstyle fascinating all over and want to examine it in a different light.
Joey_: I still don't believe you. This is for entirely different reasons, your arguments against the slot have been and will continue to be awful.

Cass made a complete 180 degree turn in this post, obviously i haven't read recent pages so im not going to elaborate until tomorrow, but i am amazed at how quickly people jumped onto TRG who was merely asking Joey the same question, eager for a simple response.

I understand Joeys point that TRG

may

have been trying to misrepresent him, but i think it is bullshit. Joey is spewing incoherent dog shit from about page 46 until page 50. Do not like the wagon on TRG and will absolutely do whatever I can to prevent it from happening (unless there is something otherwise between page 50 - 53 (ones i havent yet read)).

[Superhans]

Realo also jumped very very quickly onto TRG following Joeys shit show.

[Superhans]

town lean on TRG.

[Superhans]

nulling Joey.

[Revan]

Hans is town, I don't think this is his scum game.

[TheRealGin-N-Tonic]

I'm going to throw fuel onto this fire. I have absolutely no sense of self-preservation and Realeo's warnings that I'm mentally burnt out need to be validated.

VOTE: TheRealGin-N-Tonic

On a serious note, I'm all for this. But I don't want your defense and won't accept it. I simply find your playstyle fascinating all over and want to examine it in a different light.
Joey_: I still don't believe you. This is for entirely different reasons, your arguments against the slot have been and will continue to be awful.

Case, can you go over what each part means and your intent with saying each one?

Hans going back over the fight and he actually makes a point with your flop.

[cassielle]

@TRG: The switch to voting you was naked, and that was intentional. I wanted to keep the discussion going, tempers raised, both sides showing themselves at their worst. You can get very good reads out of that sort of thing. I deflected your attention off of me by saying it was all about watching your playstyle, and I kept Joey_ fuming by saying I didn't believe him.

I ended up liking where it landed, as it happens, so I'm standing by it.

@Tenshii: Any attempts to tie me to Laudandus are laughable. I've got a special plan for that slot and I will not be dissuaded by shade-throwing and nigh-contentless scumreads. I think your point about hardbussing is one more people need to be paying attention to, however.

@Superhans: You didn't read in terms of motives, did you? Joey_ had very clear motives: he was tunneled and awful at playing a town game. Can you tell me what TRG's motives are aside from the surface level "I don't understand"? Hint: Anyone talking "scum-180" is talking nonsense. There's a different aspect you should be looking at altogether. Just think: why does town!TRG play that way?

[TheRealGin-N-Tonic]

So you intentionally caused chaos and used that chaos to get a free pass on a vote because chaos makes players look scummy. Please tell me more how that's fucking helpful to town.

[TheRealGin-N-Tonic]

@TRG: The switch to voting you was naked, and that was intentional. I wanted to keep the discussion going, tempers raised, both sides showing themselves at their worst. You can get very good reads out of that sort of thing. I deflected your attention off of me by saying it was all about watching your playstyle, and I kept Joey_ fuming by saying I didn't believe him.

I ended up liking where it landed, as it happens, so I'm standing by it.

Yeah, if everyone could give their opinions if you think this was used as a means for an opportunitistic vote or not, that'd be appreciated.

At the moment I don't see the town-motivation in purposefully making players look bad and then voting them for it.

[Realeo]

To a certain degeee, I was also fueling the chaos, but I was expecting Joey to loses to so I was insulting his ego.

Although cass, if it is

for the sake of chaos

, why is stays there?

[Realeo]

(unless there is something otherwise between page 50 - 53 (ones i havent yet read)).

The gems are in that page.

[Realeo]

Realo also jumped very very quickly onto TRG following Joeys shit show.

It's a good show for me. It is one of those moment where Joey_ makes his case crystal clear and obvious instead of

appeal to skill

[Realeo]

I understand Joeys point that TRG may have been trying to misrepresent him, but i think it is bullshit. Joey is spewing incoherent dog shit from about page 46 until page 50. Do not like the wagon on TRG and will absolutely do whatever I can to prevent it from happening (unless there is something otherwise between page 50 - 53 (ones i havent yet read)).

Try re-reading page 50. 46 ~ 49 is kinda distraction.

[Realeo]

(unless there is something otherwise between page 50 - 53 (ones i havent yet read)).

The gems are in that page.

IGNORE THIS

[Realeo]

I am going to assume that the clock would be extended due to mass-replacement

[Realeo]

Hans is town, I don't think this is his scum game.

Elaborate please?

[Realeo]

@cass: You said that you scumread Gin for different reason. Wut?

[Realeo]

Prod received. Give me a few to get back into this.

Offhand I'm not a fan of GinNTonic. Comes off as pedantic and avoiding conflict. Can't quite mix that scumminess with what I saw as towniness from Joey.

You dissapoint me.

VOTE: Lowell

[cassielle]

@cass: You said that you scumread Gin for different reason. Wut?

The scum 180 thing is nonsense.That's what I meant.

Are you saying that's why you scumread TRG? I had the impression you scumread him for subtler reasons (you compared your scumread of him to your former push on my slot, and I remember that push having nothing to do with a "scum 180").

So you intentionally caused chaos and used that chaos to get a free pass on a vote because chaos makes players look scummy. Please tell me more how that's fucking helpful to town.

The chaos was started by Joey_. I simply kept it going to get good reads. The vote was part of keeping the chaos going, not intended to land on you outright. You were just the best place to put it: if I had voted Joey_ he'd probably have changed tactics and focus in my direction, preventing me from reading you well, for example. If I hadn't voted it at all, it wouldn't have worked and I felt there was a significant risk (at the time) of the argument dying out without me finalizing a read on you.

This is not an opportunistic vote: nothing every prevents me from voting a slot for whatever reason I want, short of mechanical limitations or sanity. I would have and could have gotten away with a "opportunistic vote" in any slot in this game so long as scumteam lolhammers weren't a real risk. But this isn't MyLo/LyLo and votes are powerful tools for putting pressure on a slot, even naked votes. I believe you're putting way more attention than is deserved on a vote that fits perfectly with my pattern in this game overall -- which people have already gone through the OMGUS->scum because unusual play->probably town but I don't like it rigmarole on. That is, in fact, one of the reasons I asked you to read my ISO when you joined the game.

Of course, you focused on Joey_'s ISO first, because he was scumreading you, instead of trying to catch up on the overall gamestate through my suggested reading material (which would also familiarize you with my approach to this game). This is arguably preoccupation with appearances: you ignore the generally relevant in favor of the personally relevant. But even supposing that isn't the case, this push does reflect a profound lack of knowledge about the gamestate, when I pointed you at three specific ISOs (only one which could be called "large") and the first three pages specifically to get a really good grasp of the overall game with a fraction of the reading.

[Realeo]

Are you saying that's why you scumread TRG? I had the impression you scumread him for subtler reasons (you compared your scumread of him to your former push on my slot, and I remember that push having nothing to do with a "scum 180").

Let me remember my reasoning cause my memory flies a bit.

[ 1 ] I remember that it's not "scum 180". I remembered saying that the narrative is not enough. At least no in the entire product.

[ 2 ] I believe it was my "scum overdoing town hunting". Joey_ pointed out that Jin suddenly "bad town" him. I find that Jin reasoning is not satisfying. I find he failed to explain why he is "bad town" instead of "bad player". The only justification of Jin was "It is not an ad hom attack," but he agreed that Joey_ at the end did ad hom attack, so he reasoning collapses. His reasoning seems inconsistent, even for an angry player who is pissed off.

I mean, look below:

Simply with Joey, when I say bad town, that means I'm more than likely going to ignore that slot and what it says because it doesn't really contribute much or produce content that is beneficial. Why I would insult someone and imply I don't want to work with them, and then be accused of trying to work with them, perplexes me because it doesn't make sense given the intentions of what I said.

Basically, why would I insult a player and say he is bad for the town as a means to get his vote off of me?

So he did not townread him. When he say Joey is "bad town", he means "bad for town"

I call you bad town because that's what I see and nothing inherently scummy when you read an iso in about 3 minutes time.

Ok I am confused. Is he "bad for town" or "bad town player?"

[cassielle]

[ 2 ] I believe it was my "scum overdoing town hunting". Joey_ pointed out that Jin suddenly "bad town" him. I find that Jin reasoning is not satisfying. I find he failed to explain why he is "bad town" instead of "bad player". The only justification of Jin was "It is not an ad hom attack," but he agreed that Joey_ at the end did ad hom attack, so he reasoning collapses. His reasoning seems inconsistent, even for an angry player who is pissed off.

Also of note, during the "spikes of anger" ad hom attacks did come from TRG's direction, they just weren't made up of strong language -- instead, they were surrounded by it. Note that this is after he mentions ad hom with strong language is a general scum tactic -- his reasoning for Joey_ as badtown INSTEAD of scum. 1335 is a prime example of an artifical-looking avoidance of "strong language as ad hominem".

Now, the rest looks reasonably natural when read out of context, but when looking at his ISO, there's a very strange sort of indirect targeting going on. It's not exactly ad hominem (outside of "ya twit"), but we have "It's called using your brain," "Learn me up something," "Say what it is at least and I'll get you a glass of warm milk and put it by your bedside," "OH MY GOD REASONING," and more -- all of which paint a picture of Joey_ being uneducated, childish and stupid without actually saying it outright. So it's a kind of concealed/obfuscated ad hominem attack. He'd deflected attention from it by mentioning "scum ad hominem" beats people about the head with strong language -- he used strong language exclusively as intensifiers to dodge that bullet, but the overall flavor was (and is) evident to me.

And while town absolutely can slip up that way, this feels like invested scum to me, not town, because angry-town making as many mistakes as TRG did would probably slip into "scummy" ad hominem. Add onto that the points you made WRT his slot, and I'm quite confident.