Mafia 73: NEGWLTWWWTKY - Abandoned!

[Toaster Strudel]

Why do you play mafia, Quag, if you hate it so much?

I'm not joining any more games anymore. I'm taking a break for awhile once the games that I'm in finish.

Early retirement offer: Quagmire

[Toaster Strudel]

I'd just like to list the players that have defended Quagmire:
YagamiLight, MoS, Peers, Yosarian2, and hasdagas

... wait... where the hell did I defend Quagmire? I'm the one who's been saying that we have no proof he actually read his PM, and even if he claims, we don't a reason to believe him... now you say I'm defending him?

I have looked back at your posts, and I have to admit... I can't seem to find where I got that impression. Apologies.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Oh wow. You think that it is more ethical to stay in a game than request replacement ?

Yes. I'd be doing a disservice to the moderator if I decided to flake out of a game because it was frustrating me.

I will claim my role -- I don't want to at all, but I will -- no earlier than 5 days before the deadline. I highly suggest that we lynch Bookitty instead.

You rather waste 20+ people's time for weeks than 1 minute of a moderator's
time to do his job. Noted.

[Quagmire]

You've claimed, Quagmire, that you make a general practice of not reading your role PMs and apparently of announcing it (but only in one game where you turned out to be scum, which is an odd coincidence).

I've never announced anywhere that I announce it all the time. I've only said that I don't read it. If you can show me where I've said that I will announce it all the time no matter what, I'd love to see it.

You policy voted someone without reasons,

I had reasons to policy vote TS. One fantastic reason -- although, I don't know why people are so hung up on this. This policy vote lasted like three pages. I'm going to take the MoS route and take this position:

Any further discussion of this matter by me will be held in private or with Mith as an audience. I will make no more mention of it within this thread. Her continual mention of it merely shows that she wishes to introduce further irrationality into the thread and obfuscate the case against her with a screen of emotional bullshit.

If you always play like this, it's a nulltell. If someone else supports your weird and anti-town behaviour, especially someone whom I feel is a good player, then I'm going to notice that, and wonder why he would make statements that are clearly counter to logic and reason. I'm going to vote him and try to figure out what his motives are.

What about yosarian2? What about ME? What about anyone else who has defended me? hasdfhag, in defending me, basically regurgitated what I said when I defend the fact that I don't read my role PM. In essence, he wasn't talking, I was.

Lastly, just because you would do something, it does not follow that I would do the same thing. You didn't read your role PM and announced it to everyone and then acted surprised that this caused a big upset. I wouldn't do something so stupid and against the spirit of the game, so trying to judge my behaviours by yours is not going to get you very far.

Those are two totally different actions and I'd appreciate if you wouldn't use such crappy logic in lumping everything of this nature together.

[Quagmire]

Oh wow. You think that it is more ethical to stay in a game than request replacement ?

Yes. I'd be doing a disservice to the moderator if I decided to flake out of a game because it was frustrating me.

I will claim my role -- I don't want to at all, but I will -- no earlier than 5 days before the deadline. I highly suggest that we lynch Bookitty instead.

You rather waste 20+ people's time for weeks than 1 minute of a moderator's
time to do his job. Noted.

You are dense

[JordanA24]

What I am saying, is that in all probability Quagmire didn't read his role pm and still hasn't. Him contributing or not isn't really a scum-tell. Yes we would get rid of an anti-town player, but there are actual scummy players like Peers that are still alive.

Quag is still distracting the town from meaningful discussion about the game, or attempting to. If he's scum, that's a good reason to get rid of him rather than someone else who might be scum, such as Peers or hasgdfas.

Bookitty, you're reaching almost as much as TS does.

Sorry, but...are you stupid? Why in the world would I do that if I'm scum, knowing that I'll be getting the blunt of all of the negative attention in the world? If I was down, why would I try to distract the town from anything?

And he has a point. But that point is also valid if he's town. Why on earth would town want to distract the rest of the town with a long discussion about the role-pm controversy? Quagmire can't pretend that he didn't know this was a controversial topic, that it would derail the current wagons, and that it would divert suspicion from people who were already being considered as possible lynches at that time.

No, I didn't. I thought it was a funny comment because I thought it was assumed that I

never

read my role PM in

any

of my games, so I didn't think twice about doing it or saying something about it. People just jumped on me like flies on horse shit, and after that, it "derailed" the town, so it's not like I instigated anything anyway.

So the question becomes, why would a neutral Quagmire want to get "the blunt of all of the negative attention in the world?" If he truly had not read his role PM, why would he choose to announce it (and he did CHOOSE to do so. No one asked him) and distract town with it, when it appeared we were nearing a lynch?

I did it casually and without thinking that it would cause a big hubbub (or one at all, for that matter). Simple as that.

That's bollocks, you know it's a contraversial topic, it's a highly unorthadox (and detrimental) way of playing the game, so you knew it'd become the main topic of discussion. Also, do you seriously think that there is not 1 person out of a group of 18 who don't know about you not reading your PMs? There are a few relatively new players who especially might not know about you that much.

(4) Sabotaged all attempts for us to evaluate his alignment.

No. I don't know where this is coming from, or what you have behind it.

Well obviously this is referring to that due to fact you didn't read your Role PM until about Page 20, therefore making all of your posts up to Page 20 completely useless. Don't think I'm dumb, you're obviously dodging questions you know you can't present a counter-argument to. You'd have to be stupid to genuinly not work out what TS is referring to here, and I know you're not.

(8) This lynch will be informative of the alignment of the players that defended him, ie Yosarian, MoS and hasdfas.

No, it won't. It won't tell you anything.

How?

The quote that's currently troubling me is this, Yosarian:

Sorry, but...are you stupid?

Why in the world would I do that if I'm scum

, knowing that I'll be getting the blunt of all of the negative attention in the world? If I was down, why would I try to distract the town from anything?

I had been more or less default-assuming, previous to this, that Quagmire hadn't read his role PM. Yet right there he says, "Why in the world would I do that if I'm scum", which is supposedly information he wouldn't have had yet when he did it. So why word it like that? The quote above seems to try to say (paraphrased) "I knew I was not scum when I claimed that I didn't know my alignment." Which means something there is a lie.

Peers: I do not think TS was seriously accusing Ramp or myself of being scum.

I think you're reaching here. The more obvious assumption is that the reply was subliminally based off the fact that the people attacking him assumed he was lying about not reading his role pm. When you look at it from that point of view, his reply makes perfect sense. The fact that you are stretching to try and fit everything he does into a negative light does not make me feel better about your attacks on him.

I agree with Bookitty, what makes you assume that this was all to do with subliminal psychological stuff and not the more obvious he slipped up theory. In a way, you're trying to spin what Quag did to try and make it seem positive, so your reaching accusation is hypocritical.

I think you're reaching here. The more obvious assumption is that the reply was subliminally based off the fact that the people attacking him assumed he was lying about not reading his role pm. When you look at it from that point of view, his reply makes perfect sense. The fact that you are stretching to try and fit everything he does into a negative light does not make me feel better about your attacks on him.

The more obvious assumption is one that requires subliminal psychological analysis?

Isn't the more obvious assumption that he just screwed up and said something scummy?

I don't think it's a huge leap of logic to look at what he said and see that something isn't right with it. Anyway, wouldn't it be more useful if HE explained it, rather than you providing psychoanalysis on it?

MoS is right on the money.

How convenient. Someone posts something in your favour, and you cling onto it, and say that that's what was going on all the time. If that was true, why didn't you say so earlier?

Unvote, vote hasdgfas

Not too keen about this following.

[Toaster Strudel]

Oh wow. You think that it is more ethical to stay in a game than request replacement ?

Yes. I'd be doing a disservice to the moderator if I decided to flake out of a game because it was frustrating me.
I will claim my role -- I don't want to at all, but I will -- no earlier than 5 days before the deadline. I highly suggest that we lynch Bookitty instead.

You rather waste 20+ people's time for weeks than 1 minute of a moderator's
time to do his job. Noted.

He doesn't want to let his buddies down. It's going to look bad if he requests a replacement in the middle of being caught Day 1.

[Setael]

hasdfhag, in defending me, basically regurgitated what I said when I defend the fact that I don't read my role PM.

And you feel that is something a townie would do?

[Quagmire]

hasdfhag, in defending me, basically regurgitated what I said when I defend the fact that I don't read my role PM.

And you feel that is something a townie would do?

I never said it was or wasn't.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Oh wow. You think that it is more ethical to stay in a game than request replacement ?

Yes. I'd be doing a disservice to the moderator if I decided to flake out of a game because it was frustrating me.

I will claim my role -- I don't want to at all, but I will -- no earlier than 5 days before the deadline. I highly suggest that we lynch Bookitty instead.

You rather waste 20+ people's time for weeks than 1 minute of a moderator's
time to do his job. Noted.

You are dense

Huh ?

[Quagmire]

Quag is still distracting the town from meaningful discussion about the game, or attempting to. If he's scum, that's a good reason to get rid of him rather than someone else who might be scum, such as Peers or hasgdfas.

Uh. How?

That's bollocks, you know it's a contraversial topic, it's a highly unorthadox (and detrimental) way of playing the game, so you knew it'd become the main topic of discussion. Also, do you seriously think that there is not 1 person out of a group of 18 who don't know about you not reading your PMs? There are a few relatively new players who especially might not know about you that much.

And then there's you, and yos, and hasdfhg, and all of the other experienced players who read mafia discussion who know that I do this. You'd think that if I said that, people would brush it off as the way I always play. I guess not. I was wrong.

Well obviously this is referring to that due to fact you didn't read your Role PM until about Page 20, therefore making all of your posts up to Page 20 completely useless. Don't think I'm dumb, you're obviously dodging questions you know you can't present a counter-argument to. You'd have to be stupid to genuinly not work out what TS is referring to here, and I know you're not.

And I'd like to note that she said, "sabotaged

all

attempts," of which I've done nothing of the sort.

[Toaster Strudel]

And I'd like to note that she said, "sabotaged

all

attempts," of which I've done nothing of the sort.

Spray Raid: Quagmire

[Setael]

I think Jordan's scum. Scum would definitely be motivated to push the Quag wagon (easy lynch especially with TS tunneling like this) at this point. Could be partners with hadf but I'm surprised he'd be this obviously opposed to a scum buddy's wagon. Could be jordan knows hasdf is town.

In my original notes, I thought jordan was scum, but I wanted to see his reaction to the newly refreshed quag wagon before saying much about him.

The following is everything he has said regarding Quagmire:

You ever going to look at your role Quag?

I can see where the wagon is coming from, but I agree with hasgdfas, lynching Quag would essentially be a random lynch.

Quag, it may be helpful for you not to read your Role PM, but it seriously disadvantages the rest of us, since you don't know what your alignment is on Day 1, and, if you're scum, you don't know who your buddies are, that makes all of your posts on Day 1 completely useless for trying to find your alignment/possible scumbuddies. Even if you're town, it disadvantages the town, because now, everybody's talking about you not reading your Role PM, rather than discussing about who's scum, it just wastes time and clogs the thread, and puts unnecessary pressure on yourself.

Careful, by my count Quag's at -1.

Not convinced Quag is scum.

And his very next post regarding Quagmire:

I think Quag is completely screwing with us, trying to get conversation away from scum with his distracting antics, he's giving nothing to the game in terms of scumhunting, thanks to his ridiculous tunnel-vision on TS. I would not be sad to see him go.

Unvote Vote: Quag

I think this was the most opportunistic vote on the Quag wagon. I think jordan, as scum, realized his Quag vote looked incredibly opportunistic and didn't mesh with all his other statements regarding the wagon, so he felt the need to reinforce it with his last post.

unvote, vote: Jordan

[Shanba]

Vote Count:

4: Kscope

(Zu_Faul, Yosarian2, schismatized, MoS)

3: hasdgfas

(Peers, ABR, Bookitty)

3: Quagmire

(Battle Mage, TS, JordanA24)

3: Peers

(YagamiLight, Erg0, hasdgfas)

3: MoS

(Kscope, Panzerjager, IH)

1: Setael

(Sir Tornado)

1: Bookitty

(Quagmire)

1: JordanA24

(Setael)

Not voting:

[Toaster Strudel]

Scum would definitely be motivated to push the Quag wagon (easy lynch especially with TS tunneling like this)

There's no such thing as an easy lynch in this game.

46 pages, 23 wagons, Day 1.

Look at Mafia 69
63 page,

Day 7

[Peers]

I'd just like to list the players that have defended Quagmire:
YagamiLight, MoS, Peers, Yosarian2, and hasdagas

... wait... where the hell did I defend Quagmire? I'm the one who's been saying that we have no proof he actually read his PM, and even if he claims, we don't a reason to believe him... now you say I'm defending him?

I have looked back at your posts, and I have to admit... I can't seem to find where I got that impression. Apologies.

Apology accepted. Consider it a warning to slow down and think a bit before posting names. I've gotten mislynched a few times by naming the wrong names or being sure I had something to back up an accusation when I didn't.

[Yosarian2]

Yos, what do you think of the case on hasdfgas?

Well, as far as I can tell, the best point that was raised against Hasdfgas was that he defended Quagmire in a kind of wierd way, going as far as to say that him not reading his role PM was somehow pro-town. However, that's really only a valid scumtell in my mind if Quagmire does turn out to be scum. The rest of the case against Hasdfgas seems weaker to me.

[Peers]

You are dense

Huh ?

Comedy gold, people! You two should take this act on the road, maybe to the Open forums... anywhere but here, really...

[Toaster Strudel]

Yos, what do you think of the case on hasdfgas?

Well, as far as I can tell, the best point that was raised against Hasdfgas was that he defended Quagmire in a kind of wierd way, going as far as to say that him not reading his role PM was somehow pro-town. However, that's really only a valid scumtell in my mind if Quagmire does turn out to be scum.

Mmm... I wonder, how could we find out Quagmire's alignment.... mmmm.... I'm thinking... oh yeah! Got it!

Reveal alignment: Quagmire

- we're way too wimpy to lynch anybody, that's the best we can hope for.

[Albert B. Rampage]

You are dense

Huh ?

Comedy gold, people! You two should take this act on the road, maybe to the Open forums... anywhere but here, really...

I saw it on House.

[Toaster Strudel]

I think SirTornado ought to be replaced. He's only made one vote the whole game.

[Toaster Strudel]

I think SirTornado ought to be replaced. He's only made one vote the whole game.

EBWOP: one vote, one post!

[hasdgfas]

I think SirTornado ought to be replaced. He's only made one vote the whole game.

I agree with

Yosarian2

TS.

[IH]

My experience in this game is that people that give the town a hard time about claiming are almost always scum.

....Games please. THis isn't my experience at all.

[...]he was careful not to link himself to other players beyond policy-voting me, following MoS and trying to intimidate Bookitty a little [...]

How about his early play compared to MoS? This is false.

Look at how he wasted 30+ pages policy voting, didn't claim earlier at lynch -1, refused to answer questions even from his friend Yosarian, stubbornly refused to cooperate, try to find scum, and actually play the game in a manner that HELPS the town. He only recently switched his vote from me to Bookitty to intimidate her, in my opinion, because Bookitty was using her brain, and Quagmire wets his bed every time he has to deal with a player that is able to think.

When did Failure to claim become a scumtell?

Why wasn't MoS JUST AS SCUMMY pages 10-20?

Your last point here is silly.

(1) Jerked town around about role PM business.
(2) Needed to be at lynch minus 1 to allegedly read it.
(3) Has done absolutely nothing pro-town.
(4) Sabotaged all attempts for us to evaluate his alignment.
(5) His current strategy is to make sure he cannot be linked to any other player but one.
(6) Stubbornly policy voting a single player while denying it.
(7) Categorically refuses to answer questions - even from Yosarian who defended him earlier.
(8) This lynch will be informative of the alignment of the players that defended him, ie Yosarian, MoS and hasdfas.
(9) To completely refuse to involve oneself in the game in any capacity beyond a wholly useless policy vote, is thoroughly scummy. That's the kind of thing a mafiosi might do in order not to compromise his buddies and leave no hints leading to them.

1. So how is he scum?
2.So how is he scum?
3.So how is he scum, and not just not protown?
4.plausible if it can be proved he was doing it on purpose, and not just dicking around.
5.See early game. This is a silly scumtell i think.
6.See earlier comments
7.Scum or a "good lynch"?
8.Doubt it
9.No it's not. It's anti town. Doesn't mean it is indicative of alignment. You also contradict your point 4 with this statement.

Your last quote is kind of meh. I'd say thats more about Quag being disenfranchised with the game and how it's being played, than Quag actually being mafia because of it.

So how much of this case is bias, conspiracy, and things just not leading to alingment?

[Mastermind of Sin]

The argument that Quagmire is scum here because he was scum in the only other game where he announced he hadn't read his role pm is as

logically flawed

, if not more, as the argument (not used in this game, but many of you have seen it used in other games) that I'm scum in games where I defend ZONEACE against playstyle persecution because I wasquag scum in the only completed game where I defended ZONEACE.