Mini 1936: Yume's Cutsie U-Pick (Town Win!)

[mastina]

1.) You couldn't know Sappho were masons on day one. You could only know the claim. Belief is not the same as knowledge.

It is when it's your fucking girlfriends who you have spent very intimate time with claiming it.

YOU don't understand what went down in there and even if you did get to see it (even unedited), you wouldn't get to see the rich history behind us. Is it unfair knowledge to possess? Perhaps. Maybe me having intimate knowledge of my girlfriends is an unfair advantage. Maybe because of how personally we know each other the moment we landed a five-person PT together we had a disproportionate advantage. You can argue that, sure, yeah. But that's how the dice were dealt.

Sappho played in a way we knew wasn't scum.
Sappho claimed a role we knew wasn't scum.
Sappho had the meta. The play. The interactions. The flavor. The roleclaim. To not be scum.

So damn straight I knew they were town. If you think it was cheating for girlfriends to be in the game with different slots, report it. (I mean we tend to avoid playing together in different slots for good reason. ) But it went beyond belief because I fucking know the people I am dating. Intimate knowledge, and I mean intimate in every sense of the word.

3.) There was in fact an IC who could either confirm themselves to random people on even nights or simply just claim it and have it confirmed in thread. Not sure why that player wouldn't simply claim it but whatever. The point is that you're wrong in every thing you said in post #1753. You didn't

KNOW

Sappho were masons (and they weren't even masons at that point), and your speculation that there would be no IC was wrong.

Yes. I was wrong. I am human I make mistakes I make imperfect judgement calls off of imperfect knowledge. With hindsight bias and total knowledge I can say I was mistaken to believe that masons + other conftown + mini = not possible. But I can ONLY say that with hindsight bias. At the time it was a reasonable call to make.

You're also trying to have your cake and eat it too.
You can't both USE postgame knowledge (that there was conftown), while also DISCARDING postgame knowledge (that I was right to defend Sappho because they were in fact conftown).

4.) You

claim

frequently to be this benevolent teacher who wants to help people, and then you ignore questions from people seeking help and make snide comments to and with your clique in site chat about those people.

I answer any question I can (some people come to me and ask things that I simply don't have the time/energy to answer) and I match the tone I am given.

When I am given a tone like yours fuck yeah I'm gonna be snide. I'm a mirror. I reflect what I see. (Try reading what you've written.) When I see youth and energy I am youthful and energetic. When I see people who look like they genuinely seek improvement, I give what I feel is genuine advice to help them improve. When I don't think someone is actually sincere in seeking improvement then my comments are going to be lamenting this and have a more bitter undertone to them.

You've been nothing but hostile to me when I've explained my stances. You've called me a liar, you've called me dishonest, you've called into question my sincerity, you've called into question my honesty, and you've refused to take the stance of me meaning what I say and being honest about what I say. I have integrity, and you are attacking me when you say I do not. So no fucking duh I'm a little bit hostile in response?

I mean I can be wrong because yeah, I'm human. I can misread things. Some people who seem to sincerely want to improve weren't; often there are people who sincerely want to improve and yet it doesn't look like they do. But that's something I am all too happy to apologize for. My first interaction with nancy started out reasonably hostile, but then we got into a conversation and it ended up great and I said I was sorry because I very much had good use for saying sorry. (At least I'm pretty sure I said sorry? If not I know I intended to. )

For real. There couldn't actually be some reasonable critique or questioning of the goddess mastina, amirite?

I mean don't get me wrong.

I'd be the absolute first person to say, for instance, that

reckless

town lies, that pointless town lies, and the like, are anti-town. If people were handing a critique to a player for fakeclaiming like that, then I'd actually be backing them, supporting them, and agree with them that, yeah. You don't do shit for the lulz. You don't lie for the sake of lying. You also don't lie about certain things which should never be lied about. (I argue it's basically never okay to lie about reads, except by omission, for instance.)

But I don't do that. Every time I tell a lie, I have a plan behind the lie. I have mapped out every possible gain and every possible loss that I could think of. And only after carefully weighing them, determining the gains outweighed the losses. I had nothing to lose by claiming mason this game. I had much to gain by claiming mason. That's how you tell a lie and have it be done right. But even there it's called a gambit because there's a chance of failure. My gambits this game didn't fail, nor were they ever likely to. Because they were calculated out with losses minimized as much as possible and gains maximized as much as possible.

[mastina]

Must be nice to be in the clique where Mastin doesn't attack you all the time ever.

Ginngie treats me with respect that's why.
And believe me.
When she doesn't treat me with respect, even though she's my friend, I give her shit for it.

I've got nothing against you.

Yet you are convinced I do.

So I'm just here going, like.

"...Okay?"

I read you as scum.
I was right to have read you as scum because you were in fact scum.
My reasons were imperfect.
I have acknowledged this on multiple occasions.

Yet you still have a problem with that.
So I'm just like.

"???"

Because what more is there to want?
I'm not going to apologize for being right.
I'm not going to apologize for being wrong.
I'm not going to apologize for wrong reasoning on a right read.
I will acknowledge faults in my process.
I will acknowledge faults in my reasoning.

But you keep on calling me the aggressor when you're the one who keeps on shitting on what I've done.

You're saying I wasn't right, by insisting the read came from bias rather than being me just scumreading your slot.
You're saying I've got no right to have had faulty reasoning.
You're saying I've got no right to make conclusions off of imperfect information, regardless of whether those conclusions were right or wrong.
I've acknowledged some were right and some were wrong. Yet you keep on attacking me even after I give you what you wanted on an honest ground.
I've shown you where I came from with my reasoning.

You are outright calling the reasoning a lie, or if not, if you are saying I really did think that, you are saying that off of imperfect information there's no way I should have thought what I did thought.
Yet I've shown how I thought what I did.
I've shown where I was coming from.
I've shown what I got wrong, and why.
And I've also shown that some of what I said wasn't wrong.

Yet you say I shouldn't have that?

You keep on assuming the worst of me and everyone surrounding me. There's no benefit of the doubt.
I have given plenty. I have given you my faults. I have given you how I have gone wrong in areas. I have acknowledged mistakes I have made. Yet even after I have done that, you keep on attacking.

[nancy]

Only thing of worth I probably have to say here is sorry to town for not showing up at any point; sorry to TWC for bailing on you, that wasn't right, my scumread on you wasn't exactly real, my brain/emotions were just fucked over and when that happens my reads go in shitty directions that don't connect with reality; I'm both yes and no about JR's posts being deleted from the Velvet Room - on the one hand no one needs to read that, on the other hand the fact that it happened just being deleted from existence makes me feel like I no longer have any right to be hurt by it and should also just erase it from my memory. I redacted most of my posts from all PTs, don't think I said anything at any point that was worth reading anyway. Since the scumreads on you seem important to you, Cerb, I didn't redact my post about you (pretty sure I made a grand total of one). Don't recall there being any shittalking at any point.

Hope you had fun, Yume. <3

[JaeReed]

@all the people: imagine a universe where TWC, Sappho, Varsoon, or Yume are killed N2. D3, Drixx and I claim that we fake claimed IC so we could get scum to shoot at us(with the added benefit of not having to fight with mastina).

How does that play out? Please try to ignore your knowledge of how the rest of the game played out. ^^

I wanted to votepark you until you activated the ic fwiw

[Cerberus v666]

Oh, speaking of gambits: the mason gambit was PROBABLY much higher risk than you believed it to be. You essentially made it 50/50 between you controlling the scum kill(which was a mostly null result, since Ihe kill was most likely going to hit town, and which there was a decent chance you wouldn't actually be able to do since if a strongman was available, it would definitely have been used on the mason claims N1), and you dying. Unless you believe you, with your role, didn't have much to contribute, the risk was QUITE high, and the reward essential nonexistent, because you INCLUDED the actual masons in your gambit, so they were still in the line of fire.

I get your reasoning, but I disagree with your cost/benefit analysis.

Pedit: mastina, you seem to be going off the deep end with Drixx right now. He hasn't done a quarter of what you're accusing him of doing in this conversation. :/

[Cerberus v666]

@all the people: imagine a universe where TWC, Sappho, Varsoon, or Yume are killed N2. D3, Drixx and I claim that we fake claimed IC so we could get scum to shoot at us(with the added benefit of not having to fight with mastina).

How does that play out? Please try to ignore your knowledge of how the rest of the game played out. ^^

I wanted to votepark you until you activated the ic fwiw

Yes, but that's not the question. The question is....when we claim we fake claimed the IC so we would get shot at, because our role let us redirect the first kill directed at us(or something like that), does that make you slot us as town or scum.

[Ginngie]

@all the people: imagine a universe where TWC, Sappho, Varsoon, or Yume are killed N2. D3, Drixx and I claim that we fake claimed IC so we could get scum to shoot at us(with the added benefit of not having to fight with mastina).

How does that play out? Please try to ignore your knowledge of how the rest of the game played out. ^^

I wanted to votepark you until you activated the ic fwiw

Yes, but that's not the question. The question is....when we claim we fake claimed the IC so we would get shot at, because our role let us redirect the first kill directed at us(or something like that), does that make you slot us as town or scum.

off of memory, I believe you said you can make it public

So no matter what, ESPECIALLY after Night and Day, it would have been a vote park till a pop

[Ginngie]

Oh, speaking of gambits: the mason gambit was PROBABLY much higher risk than you believed it to be. You essentially made it 50/50 between you controlling the scum kill(which was a mostly null result, since Ihe kill was most likely going to hit town, and which there was a decent chance you wouldn't actually be able to do since if a strongman was available, it would definitely have been used on the mason claims N1), and you dying. Unless you believe you, with your role, didn't have much to contribute, the risk was QUITE high, and the reward essential nonexistent, because you INCLUDED the actual masons in your gambit, so they were still in the line of fire.

I get your reasoning, but I disagree with your cost/benefit analysis.

Pedit: mastina, you seem to be going off the deep end with Drixx right now. He hasn't done a quarter of what you're accusing him of doing in this conversation. :/

Fun fact, according to Ari, the strongman is also deflected

[nancy]

Actually this post feels important to me, which I redacted:

I really struggle to see how anyone could ever be reading RC as anything but confirmed scum this game. But I don't think RC works well with nancy at all. It would literally just be cop checking because one head scumreads him and that's probably not the best usage of the ability. :/

I think that we work pretty well together actually when we get mutual townreads. There's a connection there where I think I understand RC in a way that most people on MS don't and when I get a townread on him that I feel good about we communicate extremely well and have a funky understanding that I personally love.

[Cerberus v666]

Only thing of worth I probably have to say here is sorry to town for not showing up at any point; sorry to TWC for bailing on you, that wasn't right, my scumread on you wasn't exactly real, my brain/emotions were just fucked over and when that happens my reads go in shitty directions that don't connect with reality; I'm both yes and no about JR's posts being deleted from the Velvet Room - on the one hand no one needs to read that, on the other hand the fact that it happened just being deleted from existence makes me feel like I no longer have any right to be hurt by it and should also just erase it from my memory. I redacted most of my posts from all PTs, don't think I said anything at any point that was worth reading anyway. Since the scumreads on you seem important to you, Cerb, I didn't redact my post about you (pretty sure I made a grand total of one). Don't recall there being any shittalking at any point.

Hope you had fun, Yume. <3

The scum reads aren't important to me. Only mastinas is, because in I can't even recall how many games, this is the first time she's actually explicitly stated that half of what she says is bullshit, which is what I ALWAYS believed, but she always spent all her time patting herself on the back, and not acknowledging screwing up in a pure way. That is, without a bunch of "yes, I fucked up, but!!!"

@mastina: I think the fundamental problem I have with the way you handle thInga is that refusal to apologize for having the wrong reasons for a right read. If I get lucky, which is what that essentially is, I'll own that shit, and the fact that you seem incapable of doing so makes it aggravating to try to discuss things with you.

Pedit: aris rulings on redirection mean he should never have it in his games ever again.

[mastina]

I don't have a GREAT grasp on how to make winning plans in that they are always, 100% of the time, with a crucial flaw that keeps them from being as good as I wanted.

It is deeply mean spirited (at the very least) for you to throw that at us.

?
How is acknowledging one of the things I do in games for better or for worse mean-spirited?
It is both acknowledging one of my strengths (I am good at coordinating things and making the most of what I've been given), while also one of my greatest weaknesses (I am working off of imperfect knowledge, I'm not omniscient, so what I coordinate, what I plan, what I make, will always have at least one flaw which prevents it from being the success I envisioned).

I mean, do you think it's an inaccurate statement?
Do you think that I don't "do" winning plans? Because it's pretty self-evident I attempt them all the time. They don't often

work

(at least not as intended), but it's pretty unambiguously fact that I do them all the same? I put into motion plans once I have been given something to work with. This is something I do, and have done in countless games. If you agree that I do them, then what's there to be offended by?

And assuming you agree I do them...
Do you think that when I do winning plans, they aren't not-great? As in. Do you think that my plans actually work as intended? Of course they don't. So I don't see the issue there either. I'm stating the truth. I make plans. I always make plans. Yet the plans are never as good as I was hoping they'd be. That's why I have others fact-check them. Hydra partners, but also others. I trust you regardless of your alignment to make reasonable (ha) plans because you are a player and even moreso a hydra who makes great plans.

You're better at making plans than I am. I've said that before. I meant it then and I still mean it now. So I don't see what the issue is. If I'm saying, "I'm good, but not great; you're better than me", what's the issue? It's calling you great, or even better than great. (What's better than great? I don't even have a word for it but if there's any player who mechanics/role-wise would be deserving of that it'd be you.) It's a complement to respecting your abilities. I respect your plans. I also respect your play. I'm not as good as you are. What in that is insulting to you? What in calling you better than me is an insult to you? I don't get it.

[mastina]

@all the people: imagine a universe where TWC, Sappho, Varsoon, or Yume are killed N2. D3, Drixx and I claim that we fake claimed IC so we could get scum to shoot at us(with the added benefit of not having to fight with mastina). How does that play out? Please try to ignore your knowledge of how the rest of the game played out. ^^

It's in the PT but I was very adamant that if you didn't prove your IC you were dead men walking. As in, I made multiple stances to the effect of, "If Reasonably Rational lives to D3, accept ABSOLUTELY NO EXCUSES, they prove they're conftown or they die."

If you killed us, you'd have to ask nancy/Jae if our will would be posted/followed. (If memory serves, JaeReed echoed my sentiments there so the answer is most likely, yes.)
Sappho couldn't die thanks to us, but if Varsoon/Yume had died then D3 opens with us alive and being able to push it.

Now!
Whether we actually win that fight, dunno.
But we'd sure as fuck have fought you there and were actively planning on it.

[Ginngie]

okay one thing that confuses me tho, is why Drixx keeps posting in the hydra after the game ended?

[RadiantCowbells]

Cerb you aren't nearly as good as you think you are.

[mastina]

Yo mastina
Hook me up with all the places I went horribly wrong.

Case 'n' point by the way RE: Drixx on my teaching.

This is something I really really really want to do but I'm honestly not sure I have the time/effort/ability to explain.
I can't always teach. I

want

to, and I feel like Radical Rat wants to learn, but I can't always give people what they want because I don't always have the answers in spite of me wanting to.

I want to make a promise to do this SO badly, but I also know I break promises like that SO easily and I don't want to make a promise I can't keep.

I'll see if I can give you a quick rundown if nothing else once I'm caught up on postgame, though if I fail to do that, I can say: when our mason PT is made public, read it all the way through because I was casing for why you were scum. (Admittedly over half of my points relied on Alisae being scum but even with Alisae as town you stuck out as scum anyway to me.) Quickie of the quickie though: off of memory, I can say it was more or less how you were treating certain players at key areas. In key periods of the game, you were taking stances which scum were most likely to take, because you were scum. And actually I'd argue that wasn't necessarily a fault. I think the main fault was your gambit of claiming scum, in that when it didn't work out, it heavily condemned you. But you already know that so that's not exactly helpful feedback to give you.

[Cerberus v666]

Cerb you aren't nearly as good as you think you are.

I don't think anyone is nearly as good as they think they are.

Some are closer than others though.

And some are further.

[RadiantCowbells]

And I don't mean that to be mean. I just think it's like a fact and you won't take things so personally if instead of thinking 'WOW THESE GUYS DEATHTUNNELED ME FOR NO REASON ITS NOT FAIR THIS IS PESRONAL' it becomes 'well I was scum and I didn't play well enough to fool people.' A lot of people agreed that you were scum around the same time and Drixx attempting to become confirmed town through setup means is somewhat of a tired trope since Civilization Mafia so I saw it coming a mile away.

[JaeReed]

I'm both yes and no about JR's posts being deleted from the Velvet Room - on the one hand no one needs to read that, on the other hand the fact that it happened just being deleted from existence makes me feel like I no longer have any right to be hurt by it and should also just erase it from my memory.

You don't need to erase it from memory or stop being hurt by it but on the same hand I am going to delete those because there were posts of yours that hurt me that were deleted and I think that's only fair, honestly.
And you're right that no one needs to read our drama, so.

[RadiantCowbells]

Also Jae, you've deathtunneled me infinitely more often than nancy has. Don't criticize her ability to read me.

[Cerberus v666]

Yeah, had we not decided to go with the gambit, most likely we role block Yume and kill TWC. MAYBE we kill Yume instead, but I would have argued against that.

It would have definitely been interesting. I don't think I had the drive to make things work though. *shrug*

Pedit: your claim that a lot of people saw us as scum as the same time is meaningless. It was D1, and people are sheep. Once mastina decided we were scum, it was inevitable that sheep who respect her would follow, because there's literally no reason not to.

[JaeReed]

@all the people: imagine a universe where TWC, Sappho, Varsoon, or Yume are killed N2. D3, Drixx and I claim that we fake claimed IC so we could get scum to shoot at us(with the added benefit of not having to fight with mastina).

How does that play out? Please try to ignore your knowledge of how the rest of the game played out. ^^

I wanted to votepark you until you activated the ic fwiw

Yes, but that's not the question. The question is....when we claim we fake claimed the IC so we would get shot at, because our role let us redirect the first kill directed at us(or something like that), does that make you slot us as town or scum.

I wasn't going to accept any excuse whatsoever iirc, so scum. I could be wrong but I was very heavily relying on mastina's read of you and I think she was pretty much of the same "no excuse will do if they don't activate an IC" mindset.

[Cerberus v666]

Also, RC: did you miss where mastina pointed out the post that got her scumreading us, which was essentially a meaningless post that occurs regardless of my alignment 100% of the time in that situation , where I want to participate but something is confusing me so I need it explained because I don't have time to look it up?

[RadiantCowbells]

Pedit: your claim that a lot of people saw us as scum as the same time is meaningless. It was D1, and people are sheep. Once mastina decided we were scum, it was inevitable that sheep who respect her would follow, because there's literally no reason not to.

I had the same independent conclusion. I was busy dealing with a bunch of unnecessary lies that made something feel like scumpartners, but I definitely thought that you were scum for the same set of posts that Mastina did. Our positions were not based on magic and witchcraft.

Also, RC: did you miss where mastina pointed out the post that got her scumreading us, which was essentially a meaningless post that occurs regardless of my alignment 100% of the time in that situation , where I want to participate but something is confusing me so I need it explained because I don't have time to look it up?

You're conflating

'I would definitely not understand how serious RC's read and would want to clarify it'
and
'I would make exactly that post in exactly that statement in exactly that context as scum.'

[RadiantCowbells]

It's not the specific action, it's how you posted it.

[mastina]

it seems awfully weird that you keep ignoring me. Post #1799 is the most recent time I quoted what you said. I'm totally open minded on that; just tell me what the intention was there.

You also know that I read things chronologically right? And that insisting for me to read a later post when I'm still on earlier ones is an exercise in futility right?

It's not ignoring you.

It's called I fucking don't even see your posts until the moment I start responding to them. You've seen me in an endless number of games; you know this is true during them and it doesn't magically disappear when suddenly we're in postgame.

I'm a fixer personality. If there's an issue, I'm a get it out in the open, deal with it, make up and spit shake and move on type. It is literally true that 99.99% of conflicts I am involved in progress as follows:
1.) Initially I go quiet and think about it. I try to reason out what's the problem, underlying factors, etc...
2.) I reach out to take care of it.
3.) A few months later I

might

remember there was a problem, but usually have a hard time giving much, if any, specific detail.
4.) A few months after that I won't even remember at all unless prompted, and even then I sometimes literally don't recall.

Did it ever occur to you that I'm the same exact way? That I thought the issue was out in the open, was dealt with, that we had moved on, that we had identified the problem, that we had reached out, and then that I had just not even really remembered the problem in the first place? Because I legit don't understand. You're shitting on me for having scumread you. But I can't understand where that originates from because it's just.

...I was right to have done so?
I don't get how you can be angry about me having made a right call.
I don't get how you can be angry that I'm not letting a scum player win when I am town. I'm playing to my wincon to lynch scum. That's the first thing on my mind. So how can you be angry when I'm doing what a town player is fundamentally

supposed to be doing

? Finding/identifying scum and then lynching them.

You keep saying I was holding a grudge.
But that is painting me as holding a bias against you.
It is, itself, ironically enough. A grudge. To say my read on you was a grudge rather than me just, you know. Scumhunting. Because that's all I was doing. I was scumhunting. I read you as scum. I was right to have read you as scum. Yet you keep on shitting on the read and saying it wasn't what it was, that it was some grudge???

I don't claim to have nailed you for perfect reasoning.
The opposite.
I do claim to have read you as scum.
And you were scum.

So what is the problem with that? What is the problem with having been right? That my reasons sucked? Okay so they sucked. What is the problem with my reasons having sucked, when I have admitted and acknowledged they're not as good as they should be? Instead of an answer, I'm getting an accusation that the read was a lie.