Open 55 - Vanilla 2:10 (Abandoned) before 542

[Lowell]

Flameaxe is less forceful and annoying this game than in the other one. Town there (or was, anyway). Ergo, scum here.

I think he's sort of a "who-the-hell-cares-let's-stir-shit-up" kind of town player, and a more cautious scum player.

Unassailable logic, don't even try.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Vote Destructor
Now how do you feel FLameaxe?

Specifically, this post here. Its not that bad, but I think it leaves him with the option of backing off it by just saying he wasn't serious about the vote in the first place, but he's also pushing the leading bandwagon that much further.

[Skruffs]

And?
I previously expressed suspicion of Destructor in a previous post, TheSPiaN. Flameaxe's bickering gave me a lead in to add a vote I Thought I had already done anyways.

[destructor]

I read the thread for any criticism of me that I hadn't already replied to...

2) Destructor might well be 1/2 of a scumpal group. His inexplicable "Elmo has provided content" and other defenses of Elmo reeks of scum trying to "go on record as defending a doomed townie at the gallows".

FOS- Destructor

Alternatively, I was calling out what was a bs wagon. Even

you

said you didn't and don't find Elmo scummy, so what's the real issue here?

guess what

VOTE: DESTRUCTOR

i'm in a voting mood right now

I never asked what tipped peg over the edge. Why are you voting me, peg?

I'd be willing to vote destructor, too.

Why?

Well I wouldn't expect you guys to believe me but I intentionally stirred crap up day one, to get the game started. WE have no knowledge day one, so any lynch is as good as any other. It was only after day 2 started that we have ANY information (there are no cops, remember), and that information is derived from what happened day one.

Any lynch is totally not as good as any other. Lynching someone's who's being terribly anti-town, obviously scummy or stupidly unhelpful is far better than lynching some random person a mindless wagon has formed on.

The only people who honestly have any reason NOT to lynch other people day one, are the two scum, and they want to avoid lynching each other.

No, I honestly have a reason not to lynch someone I don't believe is scum.

Hoenmstly, think about it:

If you are a townie, do you really carae who else gets lynched, day 1? Do you have any reason to defend anyone, regardless of how they are acting?

When viewing this person in the context of the other players around them in the game, absolutely yes. Do you seriously think it's pro-town to let a player be lynched when other are more suspicious?

Which is why the people defending dryan are more likely scum.

I know it sounds backwards. But it's da troof.

It's not da troof at all. I don't understand why you'd feel this way at all. You're suggesting that the Day 1 lynch is inevitably doomed to be a mislynch. I'd rather we tried to lynch scum at any point in the game.

Destructor seems a little shady right now; however, I don't really know what to make of the lack of communication on his part...

You never elaborated on this. Why did you feel I was shady? What lack of communication were you talking about?

I say that when you make a claim, its often a good thing to back it up.

I wonder if he was actually serious about this. The main point here was that you'd not provided any content to allow us to read you. So, I figured, you're either useless town or scum. I'm not willing to entertain the idea that you're useless town, because lurkers suck and deserve to be lynched anyway. If you really want, I could do a pbpa. lol

... I think destructor is a better lynch, though I admire and approve of the attempt to get certain players to play the game, destructor's push for an FA lynch is too opportunistic for my liking considering the scrutiny he/she was facing when the BAMWagon started rolling.

Vote:Destructor

The scrutiny he was under? At the time I started pressuring Flameaxe and JDodge the only player who was even remotely on their back was avinashv. Even

your

post right before I voted Flameaxe was shrugging the whole thing off. And a bandwagon? He had

one

vote on him. Opportunistic?? How?

And what happened to this, anyway? v

I will be seriously pissed if these guys skate through as scum just because we have all got used to not taking them seriously in anything that they do.

That's all of it. Most of my other responses to criticism haven't been commented on since, so I'm left wondering why people are voting for me.

[pickemgenius]

guess what

VOTE: DESTRUCTOR

i'm in a voting mood right now

I never asked what tipped peg over the edge. Why are you voting me, peg?

You have done plenty enough to warrant votes(this has already been gone over, so i'm seriously not going to noise this bitch up). So have alot of people tbh, but you edge them out by just a little.

[destructor]

I'm not convinced. I'd rather you spelt it out. Your ambiguity makes it impossible for me to defend myself.

[pwayne66]

so what's the real issue here?

His inexplicable "Elmo has provided content"...

The scrutiny he was under?

No, the scrutiny you were under. When the FA wagon started, PEG, Tyler, myself and skruffs all expressed suspicions of you.

Opportunistic?? How?

When avinashv started pushing FA, it seems that you took the opportunity to capitalize the attention on FA by escaping scrutiny. When the attention returned to you, it seems to me that you feigned surprise and now seem to be trying to downplay the level of scrutiny you were under when you started pushing FA.

And what happened to this, anyway?

Nothing has changed with the statement you have quoted.

[avinashv]

Mod:

vote count, please

!!!

pwayne, what is your current vote; and if you don't have one, who is your biggest candidate?

I'd like everyone to elaborate on this; if everyone could pick one person as most suspicious (even if you're not ready to vote), who would that be?

[destructor]

His inexplicable "Elmo has provided content"...

He hadn't? I think he had. Certainly more than a few people at the time.

No, the scrutiny you were under. When the FA wagon started, PEG, Tyler, myself and skruffs all expressed suspicions of you.

I didn't take peg's seriously. I already replied to Tyler's. I replied to most of yours at the time. I didn't really understand Skruff's until I reread it. No way to prove it, but I wasn't feeling any pressure when I attacked Flameaxe and JDodge.

When avinashv started pushing FA, it seems that you took the opportunity to capitalize the attention on FA by escaping scrutiny. When the attention returned to you, it seems to me that you feigned surprise and now seem to be trying to downplay the level of scrutiny you were under when you started pushing FA.

There was only one person criticising Flameaxe at the time. I'm not sure what constitutes opportunism, though I can see where you're coming from. But read below...

My surprise was legitimate and wasn't about being scrutinised so much as it was about the fact that I actually had a wagon on me. I really didn't, and don't, feel there's a half-decent case on me so I'm surprised that I've gotten myself as many votes as I have. While I'm not entirely unhappy about it, since any content is better than none, I've got not fear in saying that there are definitely a bunch of players who could do with the attention more than I.

Nothing has changed with the statement you have quoted.

Yet... you are voting a player who is trying to pressure said lurkers into activity. You don't think there's something inconsistent about this?


avinashv, I asked you some questions in post 403. Can you please answer them?

[avinashv]

Destructor: You quoted my first (well, technically my second, but it was right after my first one and only because I couldn't edit). While it wasn't defense as such, I was trying to explain why I wasn't jumping on you like the others were at the time. Yes, you seemed a little shady, but it was early, and there were a few times where you seemed a little opportunistic (pretty much mirroring what pwayne says on this), but I agree, you aren't nearly the biggest dot on my radar right now.

As for the lack of communication, for some reason I thought you weren't really talking too much the few pages around that post---it wasn't entirely accurate, but yeah, like I said, I was trying to justify why I wasn't jumping on you. Not very good logic, but whatever.

[Elmo]

Lowell: Do you have a specific game I could read? Also, are you happy with the progress you feel we've made so far?

Still don't like the destructor wagon. PEG, Skruffs, what do you feel is the strongest reason to think he's scum? (I am still somewhat lazy, and still need to read his exchange with pwayne at this point.)

[Lowell]

Penalty Box Mafia, Eagles. At least until a few pages ago he was town.

[Skruffs]

Any lynch is totally not as good as any other. Lynching someone's who's being terribly anti-town, obviously scummy or stupidly unhelpful is far better than lynching some random person a mindless wagon has formed on.

Late in the game lynches need to be accurate, but early in the game, any sort of wagon is acceptable. You might be all fussy and fos me for saying such a blasphemous thing, but let's be honest. The reactions everyone had to the wagon yesterday are MUCH more useful than the townie who got lynched. I wouldn't have said that a year ago when I was fresh and idealistic, but after a lot of experience I have learned that it is best to focus on interaction in the beginning of the game, and NOT accuracy.

The only people who honestly have any reason NOT to lynch other people day one, are the two scum, and they want to avoid lynching each other.

No, I honestly have a reason not to lynch someone I don't believe is scum.

And only scum really know who is or isn't scum, and you are basing your opinion on what? Did you explain yesterday what about Ryan made him likely town? Not saying you didn't - merely curious.

Honestly, think about it:

If you are a townie, do you really care who else gets lynched, day 1? Do you have any reason to defend anyone, regardless of how they are acting?

When viewing this person in the context of the other players around them in the game, absolutely yes. Do you seriously think it's pro-town to let a player be lynched when other are more suspicious?

Late in the game it is far better to get a player, any player, in a vanilla game lynched than allow it to go to night. Who were you pushing when Ryan was under attack? Also, your opinion of 'scummy' is notably flawed. You made an explicit point of sayign that you were intending to go after me today, I think (someone did anyways) though I was confirmed town; this is another reason I am interested in seeing you lynched; you are basing you 'pro town' and 'scum' tells on very shallow reasons.

Which is why the people defending dryan are more likely scum.

I know it sounds backwards. But it's da troof.

It's not da troof at all. I don't understand why you'd feel this way at all. You're suggesting that the Day 1 lynch is inevitably doomed to be a mislynch. I'd rather we tried to lynch scum at any point in the game.

Absolutely not. Why would you infer that I am saying that? I am inferring that the scum are more likely to try and build brownie points with the town by lightly defending pro-town players and fossing those that are attempting to scum hunt. Absolutely scum need to be lynched, day one if possible, but unless someone makes a spectacular tell or a specialized one that someone can snag onto and use against them, it's *unlikely to happen* simply based on all of us having NO information to go after. And again, you just kind of 'cleared' ryan, when you have no reason to do that; that makes you more likely to be scum.

And I just checked to see why Ryan wasn't posting; apparently I've replaced him. So yeah.

PWayne's flippancy strikes me as nervous scum, too.


Elmo: I think the bvulk of this post adds onto my previous sentiments.

[pwayne66]

PWayne's flippancy strikes me as nervous scum, too.

Interesting observation considering how skewed your perceptions must be to pick me out as being flippant in a line-up that includes Lowell, PEG, FA and JD. It is clear that my level of seriousness surpasses theirs by a great deal.

Methinks it is more likely that you want to gauge my reaction. Well...how did I do?

[destructor]

Yes, you seemed a little shady, but it was early, and there were a few times where you seemed a little opportunistic (pretty much mirroring what pwayne says on this)

pwayne's "opportunism" point was about my attack on Flameaxe and JDodge, and that came after you posted the 'shady' comment, so how could you be mirroring what he said? Was there another time before that I seemed shady?

[destructor]

Late in the game lynches need to be accurate, but early in the game, any sort of wagon is acceptable. You might be all fussy and fos me for saying such a blasphemous thing, but let's be honest. The reactions everyone had to the wagon yesterday are MUCH more useful than the townie who got lynched. I wouldn't have said that a year ago when I was fresh and idealistic, but after a lot of experience I have learned that it is best to focus on interaction in the beginning of the game, and NOT accuracy.

I agree that in the 'random' stage any wagon is a good wagon, but the rest of this is bs. As the day progresses, why not focus on both interaction and accuracy? If we're going to relate this back to the Elmo or ryan wagons, I don't believe they were well 'aimed' given their context, which has been my point the whole time.

The 'usefulness' of the townie who got lynched and the information from the reactions to the wagon is a null point. They are one and the same, are they not? There will always be information to gather from a lynch and the wagon that lead to it, regardless of whether it was on town or scum. The real distinction is that lynching scum is better for the town both in numbers and information.

The only people who honestly have any reason NOT to lynch other people day one, are the two scum, and they want to avoid lynching each other.

No, I honestly have a reason not to lynch someone I don't believe is scum.

And only scum really know who is or isn't scum, and you are basing your opinion on what? Did you explain yesterday what about Ryan made him likely town? Not saying you didn't - merely curious.

I didn't say Ryan was town. The point I made, and that you're ignoring, is that I believed there were more suspicious people around. The ryan wagon, so far as I could tell, was based on some retarded out-of-game grudge and NOT on anything that had happened in this game. On the other hand, my votes on DeathSauce and TylerJ were based entirely on how they'd been playing.

Late in the game it is far better to get a player, any player, in a vanilla game lynched than allow it to go to night.

I'm not even sure why you've bought this up. Did I suggest otherwise?

Who were you pushing when Ryan was under attack?

I'd have to go back and check, but it would have been one of DeathSauce or TylerJ. Why do you ask, and why don't you check yourself?

Also, your opinion of 'scummy' is notably flawed. You made an explicit point of sayign that you were intending to go after me today, I think (someone did anyways) though I was confirmed town; this is another reason I am interested in seeing you lynched; you are basing you 'pro town' and 'scum' tells on very shallow reasons.

I didn't say I was planing to go after you. I did say I thought you were a 'little scummy', which was meant to say that I thought you were somewhat suspicious.

Please point out any and all point in this game where I've based pro-town and scum tells on shallow reasons and then why,

in the context of this game

, it's vote-worthy.

Which is why the people defending dryan are more likely scum.

I know it sounds backwards. But it's da troof.

It's not da troof at all. I don't understand why you'd feel this way at all. You're suggesting that the Day 1 lynch is inevitably doomed to be a mislynch. I'd rather we tried to lynch scum at any point in the game.

Absolutely not. Why would you infer that I am saying that? I am inferring that the scum are more likely to try and build brownie points with the town by lightly defending pro-town players and fossing those that are attempting to scum hunt.

Ok, so maybe saying 'inevitable' is a bit of an exaggeration, but you

do

seem to be content with a Day 1 mislynch while suggesting that scum-hunting in Day 1 isn't so important.

Absolutely scum need to be lynched, day one if possible, but unless someone makes a spectacular tell or a specialized one that someone can snag onto and use against them, it's *unlikely to happen* simply based on all of us having NO information to go after.

... But we did. You are apparently disregarding the legitimacy of the information we garner from peoples' behaviour

during

Day 1, short of obvious tells. What can I say? I completely disagree with you on this and am not found of the notion that this comes down to me being "fresh and idealistic". I was trying to scum-hunt and treat Day 1 seriously. Some others weren't, such as DeathSauce, and he got lynched for it. I imagine Day 1 would have been more fruitful if there were more people taking it seriously too.

And again, you just kind of 'cleared' ryan, when you have no reason to do that; that makes you more likely to be scum.

Wtf. When did I clear ryan? You seem to be making a few assertions about me that are just false. Am I to believe that they're results of you not reading thoroughly or you wanting to build a case on me, regardless of how legitimate it actually is?

[destructor]

Hi pwayne.

Nothing has changed with the statement you have quoted.

Yet... you are voting a player who is trying to pressure said lurkers into activity. You don't think there's something inconsistent about this?

Since you still have your vote on me, any other comments on the rest of my response would be good too.

[pwayne66]

...I see nothing inconsistent there. I am not ignoring it. I only have one vote. I don't think that lurking is an accurate scumtell just as I don't think that pressuring lurkers to respond is a scumtell. Do you think that I am voting for you because you are trying to pressure lurkers?

Mod:

Can we replace Flameaxe and Jdodge please. Its been 5 days since they posted and then it was like pulling teeth. I think it is in everybody's best interest if they be left peacefully alone so that they can enjoy each other's company without our oppressive judgment of their lifestyle choices.

[destructor]

...I see nothing inconsistent there. I am not ignoring it. I only have one vote. I don't think that lurking is an accurate scumtell just as I don't think that pressuring lurkers to respond is a scumtell. Do you think that I am voting for you because you are trying to pressure lurkers?

No, I don't believe you're voting me for pressuring lurkers. That's not what I meant. I think it's inconsistent that you would express concern about two players lurking and staying under the radar but then put your vote on a player who is trying to get them to participate. You're sending out a mixed message - you don't like lurkers, but you find a player trying to do something about them more worrying.

I didn't realise you could ask a mod to replace players. If you can,

Mod:

I enthusiastically second pwayne's request.

[destructor]

Actually, you know what I just realised? You pretty much were voting me for pressuring lurkers, only you called it

'opportunistically diverting attention from yourself'

. But putting attention on the lurkers is exactly what I intended and you, who expressed concern about them going unnoticed, shouldn't have had an issue with it. That's the inconsistency.

There is an obvious disparity between the attention you're giving me and the attention you were giving the lurkers you claimed to be worried about.

[JDodge]

...I see nothing inconsistent there. I am not ignoring it. I only have one vote. I don't think that lurking is an accurate scumtell just as I don't think that pressuring lurkers to respond is a scumtell. Do you think that I am voting for you because you are trying to pressure lurkers?

Mod:

Can we replace Flameaxe and Jdodge please. Its been 5 days since they posted and then it was like pulling teeth. I think it is in everybody's best interest if they be left peacefully alone so that they can enjoy each other's company without our oppressive judgment of their lifestyle choices.

Why are you trying to replace people for no real reason? Is it to be a complete jackass? Are you motivated by a fact that you think I might be on to something? Is it that you feel that this will somehow make it better? Why are you voting destructor? Why is destructor attacking you half-assedly while seconding your request? What is your take on this? Is he your scumbuddy? Am I your scumbuddy? Is Skruffs your scumbuddy? Are you scum? If not, why are you town? Why do you feel that anyone would think you scum? What is the true alterior motive behind asking for replacements? You do realize that you're being as much of an ass that we are, right? Do you enjoy being a hypocrite? Is it somewhat of a hobby, or motivated by in-game factors aside from other players? Do you feel hypocrisy is a scumtell? If so, why? If not, why not? And, the most important question of all...

Why should I believe all your answers to these questions?

I am 100% serious about wanting answers.

[pwayne66]

Why are you trying to replace people for no real reason?

I'm not.

Is it to be a complete jackass?

Rhetorical or not, this was answered above.

Are you motivated by a fact that you think I might be on to something?

Again, already answered... for giggles, what is it that you have indicated that you were onto that would require anybody to respond with fear?

Is it that you feel that this will somehow make it better?

What is this "it" of which you speak? I am 100% serious about this question.

Why are you voting destructor?

I have addressed this.

Why is destructor attacking you half-assedly while seconding your request?

I have no way of knowing the answer to this. I might suggest you ask destructor.

What is your take on this?

Answered above.

Is he your scumbuddy?

nope

Am I your scumbuddy?

I wish

Is Skruffs your scumbuddy?

no

Are you scum?

no

If not, why are you town?

That's the role the mod gave me... ask him

Why do you feel that anyone would think you scum?

I haven't thought about it, but in your case I would suspect OMGUSery.

What is the true alterior motive behind asking for replacements?

If I told you it would no longer be alterior...

You do realize that you're being as much of an ass that we are, right?

I do not realise this. If this is true I apologize to everybody.

Do you enjoy being a hypocrite?

Sometime it can be fun. Other times not so much. Its a wash really.

Is it somewhat of a hobby, or motivated by in-game factors aside from other players?

Hypocricy? I supose that people can engage in it as a hobby. Of course it can be motivated by in-game factors as well. I don't think the two are mutually exclusive really.

Do you feel hypocrisy is a scumtell?

It can be.

If so, why?

I could indicate that a person has a secret agenda

If not, why not?

...or I can just mean a person is dim.

Why should I believe all your answers to these questions?

I don't expect you to... you have no real interest in this game.

[Flameaxe]

I vote that Pwayne be replaced, he's making this game just silly, and we can't have that.

[JDodge]

Is it that you feel that this will somehow make it better?

What is this "it" of which you speak? I am 100% serious about this question.

That was a trick question designed to get you to answer so I could ask what "it" was.

Why do you feel that anyone would think you scum?

I haven't thought about it, but in your case I would suspect OMGUSery.

"I haven't thought about it" is not an acceptable answer. In general, why do you feel that anyone would think you scum?

Why should I believe all your answers to these questions?

I don't expect you to... you have no real interest in this game.

Again, not an acceptable answer.

[destructor]

Why is destructor attacking you half-assedly while seconding your request? What is your take on this? Is he your scumbuddy?

I'm attacking pwayne half-assedly?

Do you think I'm pwayne's scum buddy?

And Flameaxe's last post almost convinced me to change my vote. /lies