Team Mafia 2018: White Flag — Day Six

[Gamma Emerald]

This looks more like comparing his play to what Postie has said of his meta rather than to what you perceive as his meta

I'm not hugely great with meta, and this was as much to help guide me as to Postie's alignment as it was Fenix, so my aim was to check if Postie's points seemed valid for the games she listed (they did) and to use that as a jumping off point to look at other games and compare. It looks like that because it sorta is, but when someone's already done a pretty comprehensive list of meta tells what do you expect me to do? Ignore them and find silly obscure ones?

And also, why don't you throw in TBD and N&D and see which one is less incongruous with it's respective alignment's meta?

Because on a look through neither seemed particularly incongruous, and I see no point in putting a lot of time into a post which would literally just be "yeh so it's pretty much mostly as postie says tbh", if that makes sense.

Alright, I understand this. Thanks.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

CES, I want two more scum reads.

Eddie is the other big one. I don't particularly care about meta with Eddie; he just posts these long walls that have no absolutely no forward motion in them. Going 30 pages without voting on Day 1 is also something I can't recall seeing from Town (conversely, I know that that sort of thing happens to scum - they unvote at some point and then have a tough time finding a natural point to go "I'm confident enough to vote now"). The main thing that gives me pause is that I don't really trust Postie.

My second tier of scum reads is Postie and Gamma Emerald; I'll just comment on Postie for now since I need to get a good night's sleep. I'm not fond of Postie's early game, a lot of which feels like it's more at looking good than actually scumhunting - #446 is the clearest example of that to me; if you look at it superficially, it's "hey, in-depth questions! good!" but it's so overboard as to be counterproductive. When I read that post, I expected none of the questions in it to receive answers - as far as I can tell, that is in fact what happened and Postie also didn't follow up. I have a harder time judging her play since the Eddiepush started - I agree with the gist of it, obviously, but it seems like an easy thing for Postie to focus on regardless of alignment.

[Gamma Emerald]

Why Postie over me?

[Thestatusquo]

CES, I want two more scum reads.

Eddie is the other big one. I don't particularly care about meta with Eddie; he just posts these long walls that have no absolutely no forward motion in them. Going 30 pages without voting on Day 1 is also something I can't recall seeing from Town (conversely, I know that that sort of thing happens to scum - they unvote at some point and then have a tough time finding a natural point to go "I'm confident enough to vote now"). The main thing that gives me pause is that I don't really trust Postie.

My second tier of scum reads is Postie and Gamma Emerald; I'll just comment on Postie for now since I need to get a good night's sleep. I'm not fond of Postie's early game, a lot of which feels like it's more at looking good than actually scumhunting - #446 is the clearest example of that to me; if you look at it superficially, it's "hey, in-depth questions! good!" but it's so overboard as to be counterproductive. When I read that post, I expected none of the questions in it to receive answers - as far as I can tell, that is in fact what happened and Postie also didn't follow up. I have a harder time judging her play since the Eddiepush started - I agree with the gist of it, obviously, but it seems like an easy thing for Postie to focus on regardless of alignment.

If theres a wagon on one of your top scum reads why are you not on it? Reticence of the person making it shouldn't outweigh the fact that you're scum reading the person the case is on.

[Thestatusquo]

Also @postie I saw your post. I'll get to it when I get home from work.

[LicketyQuickety]

So, Eddie Meta. First to note is that I'll be referencing this post a lot as it's a good sum up of Postie's claimed town- and scum-meta re:Eddie.

First thing to note is that, while the chosen games are from last year (which initially concerned me with regards to cherry picking) they are indeed the two most recent (substantial) games Eddie has played in. This is also a general comment that I'm fairly happy with their assessment of their two games. I don't think the difference is as blindingly obvious as painted, however. Also, I will note that his TBD play (scum) becomes a fair bit more like his Night and Day (town) play as the game continues, which muddies the whole thing a little for me.

Now, the other games:
Paint Mafia Mania (SCUM) - while more recent than the other two, this game is the reason why the qualifier "substantial" is in the paragraph above - an entire 9 posts, due to a personal situation ("unforeseen life stuff"), a fast moving game, and eventual replace out. So, while largely it could be NAI (as pretty much all could be equally explained with the lack of full engagement with the game due to being behind), I do notice even in this tiny sample that a fair few of Postie's meta-indicators are present.
Hunger Games II (SCUM) - this is a hydra game with Bulbazak (to find Eddie's posts, use Ctrl+f and search "-Fenix", as he signs all but his first post with this). Another of Postie's points is here - a very small number of reads. Pretty much the first half of Eddie's posts refer to a single player (Creeps). And yep, a lot of questions which aren't followed up on, and.. yeh you get the idea. I was honestly expecting to have a fair bit to argue against Postie with but... this is pretty much as they say. I'm almost disappointed.
Team Mafia 2015: Mod Error Mafia (TOWN) - four posts, nothing to see here.
Team Mafia 2015: 8:4 Vanilla Nightless (TOWN) - this one's a teeny bit more ambiguous, as there are a few early posts where questions aren't followed up on and a smaller number of players are engaged with. But who am I kidding - this is quickly resolved, questions are followed, he gets mulitple more reads quickly, his posting is indepth and lacks fluff.

Dammit Postie, when you're right, you're right.

VOTE: EddieFenix

You are still assuming that 2 fucking games is enough for a meta read. News flash: it isn't.

[northsidegal]

Me and mathdino both agree that llamarble was killed to break up town cohesion, and that the post we should all be looking at is 875. To that end, he thinks that postie vs tsq is a pointless debate to have as that'll be resolved itself as the game goes on.

[LicketyQuickety]

This looks more like comparing his play to what Postie has said of his meta rather than to what you perceive as his meta

I'm not hugely great with meta, and this was as much to help guide me as to Postie's alignment as it was Fenix, so my aim was to check if Postie's points seemed valid for the games she listed (they did) and to use that as a jumping off point to look at other games and compare. It looks like that because it sorta is, but when someone's already done a pretty comprehensive list of meta tells what do you expect me to do? Ignore them and find silly obscure ones?

And also, why don't you throw in TBD and N&D and see which one is less incongruous with it's respective alignment's meta?

Because on a look through neither seemed particularly incongruous, and I see no point in putting a lot of time into a post which would literally just be "yeh so it's pretty much mostly as postie says tbh", if that makes sense.

Why on earth would any Scum EVER give evidence that was as easily refutable as this? That is like ASKING to get strung up. Put another way: do you really think RC is that sloppy?

[LicketyQuickety]

CES, I want two more scum reads.

Eddie is the other big one. I don't particularly care about meta with Eddie; he just posts these long walls that have no absolutely no forward motion in them. Going 30 pages without voting on Day 1 is also something I can't recall seeing from Town (conversely, I know that that sort of thing happens to scum - they unvote at some point and then have a tough time finding a natural point to go "I'm confident enough to vote now"). The main thing that gives me pause is that I don't really trust Postie.

My second tier of scum reads is Postie and Gamma Emerald; I'll just comment on Postie for now since I need to get a good night's sleep. I'm not fond of Postie's early game, a lot of which feels like it's more at looking good than actually scumhunting - #446 is the clearest example of that to me; if you look at it superficially, it's "hey, in-depth questions! good!" but it's so overboard as to be counterproductive. When I read that post, I expected none of the questions in it to receive answers - as far as I can tell, that is in fact what happened and Postie also didn't follow up. I have a harder time judging her play since the Eddiepush started - I agree with the gist of it, obviously, but it seems like an easy thing for Postie to focus on regardless of alignment.

This is the first post by CES that I haven't liked. What I don't like about it is how far away from Occam's Razor CES is getting with their read in Postie. It's not the sort of thing I would think a competent player like CES would be looking at where there is a whole bunch of more obvious stuff to draw suspicion on.

[Davsto]

So, Eddie Meta. First to note is that I'll be referencing this post a lot as it's a good sum up of Postie's claimed town- and scum-meta re:Eddie.

First thing to note is that, while the chosen games are from last year (which initially concerned me with regards to cherry picking) they are indeed the two most recent (substantial) games Eddie has played in. This is also a general comment that I'm fairly happy with their assessment of their two games. I don't think the difference is as blindingly obvious as painted, however. Also, I will note that his TBD play (scum) becomes a fair bit more like his Night and Day (town) play as the game continues, which muddies the whole thing a little for me.

Now, the other games:
Paint Mafia Mania (SCUM) - while more recent than the other two, this game is the reason why the qualifier "substantial" is in the paragraph above - an entire 9 posts, due to a personal situation ("unforeseen life stuff"), a fast moving game, and eventual replace out. So, while largely it could be NAI (as pretty much all could be equally explained with the lack of full engagement with the game due to being behind), I do notice even in this tiny sample that a fair few of Postie's meta-indicators are present.
Hunger Games II (SCUM) - this is a hydra game with Bulbazak (to find Eddie's posts, use Ctrl+f and search "-Fenix", as he signs all but his first post with this). Another of Postie's points is here - a very small number of reads. Pretty much the first half of Eddie's posts refer to a single player (Creeps). And yep, a lot of questions which aren't followed up on, and.. yeh you get the idea. I was honestly expecting to have a fair bit to argue against Postie with but... this is pretty much as they say. I'm almost disappointed.
Team Mafia 2015: Mod Error Mafia (TOWN) - four posts, nothing to see here.
Team Mafia 2015: 8:4 Vanilla Nightless (TOWN) - this one's a teeny bit more ambiguous, as there are a few early posts where questions aren't followed up on and a smaller number of players are engaged with. But who am I kidding - this is quickly resolved, questions are followed, he gets mulitple more reads quickly, his posting is indepth and lacks fluff.

Dammit Postie, when you're right, you're right.

VOTE: EddieFenix

You are still assuming that 2 fucking games is enough for a meta read. News flash: it isn't.

Are you kidding?

[Davsto]

Like, I literally, in that very post, right there, continued the metaing to two other substantial games. Two plus two is four. Two games isn't enough. Four, with two town and two mafia, is.

[Davsto]

This looks more like comparing his play to what Postie has said of his meta rather than to what you perceive as his meta

I'm not hugely great with meta, and this was as much to help guide me as to Postie's alignment as it was Fenix, so my aim was to check if Postie's points seemed valid for the games she listed (they did) and to use that as a jumping off point to look at other games and compare. It looks like that because it sorta is, but when someone's already done a pretty comprehensive list of meta tells what do you expect me to do? Ignore them and find silly obscure ones?

And also, why don't you throw in TBD and N&D and see which one is less incongruous with it's respective alignment's meta?

Because on a look through neither seemed particularly incongruous, and I see no point in putting a lot of time into a post which would literally just be "yeh so it's pretty much mostly as postie says tbh", if that makes sense.

Why on earth would any Scum EVER give evidence that was as easily refutable as this? That is like ASKING to get strung up. Put another way: do you really think RC is that sloppy?

I've had scum!RC attempt to have me lynched on poor meta before so, uh, yeh.
And even if I didn't think so, what's the harm in being thorough and making it clear to the game that the meta read does go beyond just two games? I'm really struggling to understand your objections here. As in, it feels a lot like you're just objecting to anything you can without really considering it.

[LicketyQuickety]

This looks more like comparing his play to what Postie has said of his meta rather than to what you perceive as his meta

I'm not hugely great with meta, and this was as much to help guide me as to Postie's alignment as it was Fenix, so my aim was to check if Postie's points seemed valid for the games she listed (they did) and to use that as a jumping off point to look at other games and compare. It looks like that because it sorta is, but when someone's already done a pretty comprehensive list of meta tells what do you expect me to do? Ignore them and find silly obscure ones?

And also, why don't you throw in TBD and N&D and see which one is less incongruous with it's respective alignment's meta?

Because on a look through neither seemed particularly incongruous, and I see no point in putting a lot of time into a post which would literally just be "yeh so it's pretty much mostly as postie says tbh", if that makes sense.

Why on earth would any Scum EVER give evidence that was as easily refutable as this? That is like ASKING to get strung up. Put another way: do you really think RC is that sloppy?

I've had scum!RC attempt to have me lynched on poor meta before so, uh, yeh.
And even if I didn't think so, what's the harm in being thorough and making it clear to the game that the meta read does go beyond just two games? I'm really struggling to understand your objections here. As in, it feels a lot like you're just objecting to anything you can without really considering it.

What I am saying is that even in the case that Posties Meta on Eddie is accurate, this doesn't automatically make Postie Town, which seems to be what you are assuming.

I'd like you to link where RC used incorrect meta to try and lynch you.

[LicketyQuickety]

Like, I literally, in that very post, right there, continued the metaing to two other substantial games. Two plus two is four. Two games isn't enough. Four, with two town and two mafia, is.

You have 2 games really. One of the games has like 4 posts and the other is a Hydra game, which is not equatable.

[northsidegal]

someone please question me so that i have a starting off point to get back into this game – it's been so long that i don't really remember the lines of questioning that i had going (if they would even still be relevant).

i think i'm still at postie, actiondan, ranmaru definitely town, quick and gamma questionably town, cogito ergo sum and lycanfire scumreads (although my teammates disagree on lycan).

[Ranmaru]

Here's something to consider looking into: Yesterday's wagon, those voting on it and off it, and what was happening around that time. Then look at what happened D2, and tell me your thoughts. Finally, tell me why you were putting this game on the back burner.

Also, talk to me more about CES and Lycanfire. What's your reasoning for scumreading them? Thoughts on this post: #1356

Shea, will respond to you soon, I'm home now.

[Marquis]

VOTE: LQ

I didn't read overnight even though I should have

Team all agrees on this tho so I'm parking and riding wheeeeeee

Also liking nsg slightly more because that's pretty much exactly how I feel about where I am with this game. That and someone else please obvtown soon so I have a stepping stone to get back in

[Ranmaru]

Marquis: Read on Eddie and Ces?

[Postie]

When I read that post, I expected none of the questions in it to receive answers - as far as I can tell, that is in fact what happened and Postie also didn't follow up.

Then you haven't been reading the thread properly because all of those questions were answered

someone please question me so that i have a starting off point to get back into this game – it's been so long that i don't really remember the lines of questioning that i had going (if they would even still be relevant).

Why aren't you voting Eddie and what do I have to do to get you to vote Eddie

[Marquis]

VOTE: EddieFenix

Obv. Also don't think it's a coincidence that the only other person expressing serious interest in this lynch was nightkilled. Me dead + Llamarble alive would've probably been more dangerous for Eddie than the other way round.

It's absolute Bull Shit to say Llama was killed because they were looking at Eddie. Like seriously...

Agreed. He was obvtown, simple as that.

Stop the presses, Mastina hath deep dove my earhole (more or less CAPS LOCKED in my PT lol)

Ran and Marquis are 100%, dead to rights, scum. No need to question it.

UNVOTE: Cogito Ergo Sum
VOTE: Marquis

Seeing as I townread Ran yeah I'm questioning this a little. Marquis vote is good though.
VOTE: Marquis

Trying to draw away from Postie.

What do you mean by this?

Fair enough. Later on, yes. LQ, I want a full reads list from you too.

LQ you are focusing a lot on Postie right now. I want a reads list.

Kinda obvious you're trying to draw heat away from someone.

It sure is convienient for you that your townread on me magically reversed itself to exactly line up with the kind of argument you needed to appeal to LQ

Hmmm.... Shade.... I don't need it. It's quite cold where I am atm. The sun would be nice.

However, I also bring word from Mastina. From Town to OMGLYNCHITWITHFIRE

Town:

ActionDan
Dunnstral
Davsto
northsidegal
Thestatusquo
Lycanfire

Town/Null
LicketyQuickety
Cogito Ergo Sum

Null
Gamma Emerald

Scum/Null
Postie

OMGLYNCHITWITHFIRE
Marquis
Ranmaru

We lynch the last 2 with fire, we win as town cause those are the 2 that are obv scum to her.

Can mastina explain why? And has mastina played with Ranmaru? I know both are older players but I'm not sure, and I don't care to do that type of meta dive when not alt-hunting
Also wasn't I in your townpile before, what happened?

Vote: LQ

Why not continue voting Marquis?

[LQ > Eddie > Marquis > | AD > Dunn | NSG > CES > Davsto | Lycan > Postie > Gamma > TSQ > Ranmaru]

Forgot to add Postie. I think we have this game in the bag. Seeing LQ and Eddie make desperate plays seems like we have cornered them.

I am pretty on board with what you're sayin about Eddie but I'm not going to condemn him just yet, as I see it mastina is just going insane in his team PT and her trusts her
And honestly while I don't like how Lycan has been reading me maybe I've been tunneled on him a bit based on that.

I really really hate this post tho. It just feels... blatantly scum. And even though that'd normally be a turnoff Gamma strikes me as the kind of player it could really be that simple for.

Like while I'm feeling LQ vibes the most Gamma just keeps ping ping pinging like right up in my ear. It's aggravating because it both makes me want to lecture him about how to read people and simultaneously shut up so there isn't the whole giggly scumteam throwing an egg in my face thing.

[Marquis]

Stop the presses, Mastina hath deep dove my earhole (more or less CAPS LOCKED in my PT lol)

Ran and Marquis are 100%, dead to rights, scum. No need to question it.

UNVOTE: Cogito Ergo Sum
VOTE: Marquis

LOL

[MathBlade]

Votecount 2.4

EddieFenix(4)

~ LicketyQuickety, Postie, Thestatusquo, Davsto

Marquis(3)

~ EddieFenix, Gamma Emerald, Cogito Ergo Sum

LicketyQuickety(2)

~ Ranmaru, Marquis

Cogito Ergo Sum(1)

~ Lycanfire


Not Voting (3): ActionDan, northsidegal, Dunnstral

With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch.

Day 2 deadline is in (expired on 2018-02-18 19:30:00)

[Gamma Emerald]

PLease, if you have in issue with how I read people tell me how it is wrong and what the "right" way is

[northsidegal]

Here's something to consider looking into: Yesterday's wagon, those voting on it and off it, and what was happening around that time. Then look at what happened D2, and tell me your thoughts. Finally, tell me why you were putting this game on the back burner.

Also, talk to me more about CES and Lycanfire. What's your reasoning for scumreading them? Thoughts on this post: #1356

Shea, will respond to you soon, I'm home now.

my thoughts on the wagon are mostly just a reflection of my preexisting reads – i think the wagon was mainly town and, if there was scum on it, it would likely be in {cogito ergo sum, lycanfire}, with the outside chance of dunnstral. to comment on something specifically, i think cogito ergo sum's reason for switching his read on the tchill slot is kind of strange – for someone who said that the wagon was little better than a random lynch, i don't think a sudden switch to thinking that it landed on scum happens the way that it seemed to for him.

i think it was llamarble who might've put forth the idea that it was an all-town wagon that scum deliberately stayed off of, organized using daychat – that doesn't really seem realistic to me. taking that to be true would also imply a kind of weird scumteam, something like {davsto, marquis, eddie} (although if i'm wrong about my reads on the wagon and it is actually town then my reads off the wagon are likely to be no better).

i couldn't really give you a single reason that i kind of ended up putting this game off – i think it started where i was actually just busy for a day or so, and then i didn't want to catch up, and as i kept putting it off the amount that i had to catch up on kept growing which made me want to catch up less, and so on. actually, now that i think about it, i think it all started with the thread lock for your replace in.

will respond in more detail about day two and about that one post you made in a second, just want to get thoughts out there. looking at that vote count that just pedited me, it implies that all three scum are bussing, which i suppose makes sense in white flag.

[Postie]

Marquis I probably don't need to tell you this but you are really out of touch with the game right now
Neither you nor anyone else should be taking your particularly reads seriously when you've barely been playing or reading