Mini 1752: Back to December (Game Over)

[MattP]

If I were to make a generalized statement right now I would say that Aj's posting this page is bad in general.

[MattP]

Jk, on the last page now

[Elyse]

Matt, I'm going to respond to SO later but just wanted to post that so people knew I still thought he was scum.

As far as AJ goes, I could see him as scum. A lot of his responses seem stilted and awkward to me and he could be buddying me.

[Aj The Epic]

Elyse, what benefit do I gain from buddying you? You'd be the easiest lynch to dump on if I was scum because frankly buddying you wouldn't really get me that far.

[Equinox]

Vote Count 1.06

Elyse (2) - petroleumjelly, Supreme Overlord
MattP (2) - TKoE, Raskolnikov
Supreme Overlord (2) - OceanWind, Elyse
TKoE (2) - MattP, Aj The Epic
Aj The Epic (1) - Alchemist21
Raskolnikov (1) - LlamaFluff

Not Voting (1) - curiouskarmadog

With 11 votes in play, it will take 6 to lynch.

The deadline is Sunday, January 17, 2016, at 2:30 AM EST (UTC-5), which is in (expired on 2016-01-17 02:30:00).

Moderator Comments

OceanWind is V/LA until January 7.

OceanWind has been prodded.

[TKoE]

I don't get why being self-aware of meta is always so taboo in games. If I think my town and scum games are highly distinguishable and I'm town why would I not point it out? Why do I need to be coy about it?

By all means, point it out. But ask yourself this, lets say you magically got much better at lying as a Scum player, would you perhaps consider doing precisely this to throw the scent off? I've not played with you, as you so rightly pointed out, so I can't be sure how many levels of meta you can express. Therefore it'd be a total waste of time to put any stock in your statement, the fact that you are so desperately defending it now though... That I can read plenty into, and I don't like what I'm reading.

VOTE: MattPWhat he actually says here is fine - the bit that stands out to me is the contradiction between 'I have no idea who is [scum] at this stage' and 'Vote: MattP'. However, I can easily read it as exaggeration for effect,

or starting there and leading into the second quote.

And since then he's flaked so there's been no follow-up for me to be able to judge.

Gah sorry, this was the intended reading, I should have made that clearer, I'll be on for a more thorough review of the current events in ~12 hours. Mybad.jpg

[Elyse]

On the [Elyse] wagon, Supreme Overlord is the primary offender of 'your vote is seriously outdated'.

Well, I haven't yet seen a target I'd prefer to switch my vote to, so I'll summarise why I'm on Elyse.

TL;DR

Elyse's play consists of miscellaneous posts about nothing, a sheeping vote with a (in my opinion) weak justification after the fact, and a whole bunch of short posts about Matt's defensiveness, mostly rehashing the same thing over and over.

That's better than most of this playerlist atm and also pretty inaccurate. My vote on you is completely justified and my posts regarding Matt's defensiveness were in response to ckd. I don't really have any interest in pursuing that avenue further.

I didn't particularly like 'Poor Marquis' - though it would be fairer to say it caused Elyse to catch my attention rather than I thought her scummy for it. I didn't think it was worth researching the way petroleumjelly did.

This is what Matt thinks is "fluid scumhunting" but I say is "a bunch of meaningless fluff." He comes to no conclusion, doesn't take a stance on it, and then Matt gives him a townread for it. This is a textbook scum move. Also, Marquis is one of my favorite people to play with and I haven't played with him in like a year so yes I said poor Marquis.

Similarly, a random post on the flavour in the middle of Matt and Alchemist's argument isn't alignment-indicative, but it was weird (could have derailed, but as it turns out it didn't).

See what I said before about not taking stances and posting something meaningless.

Supreme's fluff in Post 33 rubbed me the wrong way.

I don't think AJ's paragraph was that bad. It was a reach but Alch has been a little awkward.

VOTE: SupremeOverlord

I agree with Ocean here.

This is the pair of posts I voted Elyse for. As I said then, Ocean didn't really make any argument for Elyse to agree with. She also doesn't explain why she picked 'fluff' (presumably - that's Ocean's word, not hers) over 'a reach' and 'a little awkward'.

Um, Ocean said that your post rubbed him the wrong way. It also rubbed me the wrong way, so yes, there was something for me to agree with. Posting fluff is a lot scummier than reaching on like page 2.

It means that Marquis read you correctly last game. I'm guessing you were scum and he caught you.

This one could go either way; it's clarifying between curiouskarmadog and MattP, but it's posting without any content from Elyse.

Again, no stances, meaningless content, etc.

Posts 73, 78, 83, 92 and 104 are all one-liners talking about the same thing - Matt being defensive with his meta. There is no additional content through here.

That's because I was specifically asked. I don't even care about Matt much today. I can save him for later. I want you my dearie.

He took basically no stances, basically gave Matt instructions on how to avoid being scumread by him, didn't address my point and tried to turn it around on me instead, tip-toes around a TKoE scumread by calling him "odd", says he "could believe" Rask is newbtown (means nothing). Just everything about that was scummy.

Obviously I disagree with this. I don't know how 'post content we can judge you on' is 'instructions on how to avoid being scumread' - for everyone, if they post town content I'll think they're town, if they post scummy content I'll think they're scum. In fact, what it's more saying that Matt has locked himself into a promise to keep posting content, and he can be held accountable to that.

I said basically twice in one sentence. I'm such a basic white girl. Anyway, you told him to stop being focused on meta and post content, which are directions on how to get him to stop scumreading you.

I addressed the point I missed in a previous post - I haven't heard back from Elyse about that.

You admitted that it was fluffy/silly...

He took basically no stances, basically gave Matt instructions on how to avoid being scumread by him, didn't address my point and tried to turn it around on me instead, tip-toes around a TKoE scumread by calling him "odd", says he "could believe" Rask is newbtown (means nothing). Just everything about that was scummy.

I mean arguing over semantics with your opinions here is an exercise in uselessness but your 2nd, 4th and 5th points aren't alignment indicative, Supreme is just posting all his thoughts in the thread, they don't look particularly malicious or directed. His recent posting he is outlining his scumhunting thought processes in a pretty logical way and demonstrating stances he's taken. Considering how much content he just posted it's silly you're just coming into the thread and pretty much disregarding it by repeating you just wanting to lynch him.

See I just disagree with this completely. Two is scummy if you are scum together, four is scummy because he doesn't take a stance, fifth is just pointing out meaningless fluff - in other words all of his posts which you are for some reason townreading him for.

Elyse, what benefit do I gain from buddying you? You'd be the easiest lynch to dump on if I was scum because frankly buddying you wouldn't really get me that far.

Idk you'd look good when I flip town? I'm always wary of people who seem to be townreading me early on.

[LlamaFluff]

Still like the Rask vote. I wouldn't mind an AJ wagon though, his vote doesn't seem to match his main reads at this point.

Elyse, what benefit do I gain from buddying you? You'd be the easiest lynch to dump on if I was scum because frankly buddying you wouldn't really get me that far.

This one also really bugs me as a response to Elyse saying that he is buddying up. The natural reaction to someone saying that you are buddying to me is saying "because I think you are town and trying to stop your lynch" instead of trying to argue a WIFOM point about how it would or would not benefit him as a specific alignment.

I tend to aggressively defend a town read who is in trouble, and that type of thought process is something that tends to only pop up as scum, or if someone is doing something that would directly against a scum win condition.

[Aj The Epic]

I think it's perfectly valid to ask that question, even if you think it's wifom. I'm not going to pretend that I can't see the risk/reward of scum in this situation. If as scum a situation doesn't benefit me, I don't take it. And I wouldn't be taking up an unfavorable position to my own wincon and the current town's perspective for something as small an 'advantage' as wifom. I think my post attacking Elyse's wagon says more than what you expect the stereotypical response to be.

[LlamaFluff]

I think it's perfectly valid to ask that question, even if you think it's wifom. I'm not going to pretend that I can't see the risk/reward of scum in this situation. If as scum a situation doesn't benefit me, I don't take it. And I wouldn't be taking up an unfavorable position to my own wincon and the current town's perspective for something as small an 'advantage' as wifom. I think my post attacking Elyse's wagon says more than what you expect the stereotypical response to be.

Defending town as scum is a very good move though. Im not above trying to defend town early as scum if the case is bad, especially if you can just turn it around on who is attacking them if its a town driven wagon.

[Equinox]

Raskolnikov has been prodded.

[Raskolnikov]

Still don't like matt. Elyse vs SO is meh, probably TvT. Today was busy for me, but I hope to get some work done here tomorrow. Sorry guys.

[petroleumjelly]

Unvote: Elyse

Vote: Aj The Epic

[Aj The Epic]

Defending town as scum is a very good move though. Im not above trying to defend town early as scum if the case is bad, especially if you can just turn it around on who is attacking them if its a town driven wagon.

And yet I keep my vote on someone unrelated to it as opposed to attacking and hold that CKD's vote was bad, not him himself.

However, I try to actively derail bad wagons. If you wanted me to give you meta, my last 3? Maybe four. town games have started with me heavily defending a townie. In 2 they still got lynched, though in both we turned the correct lynch the next day. One was a multi-lynch no-flip game and I sought out two scum d1 and got one lynched after the townie one died for what honestly was the worst case of VI ever.

But what you seem to agree with me, though, is that Elyse is town. In your post, you state specifically that you aren't above defending town as scum. You suggest I'm buddying Elyse, not defending a scum partner. So I feel that in this, your opinion as well would be that the Elyse wagon is not worth it or bad. And thus the entire point of what I did.

[LlamaFluff]

@AJ - I am not saying you defending Elyse is a tell at all. Your response to Elyse is bad, because the "how I benefit as scum from the action" doesn't tend to come into town thoughts as much.

That and I have zero idea why you are voting TKoE

[Aj The Epic]

I don't buy that at all, to be honest. Considering I was responding to this:

As far as AJ goes, I could see him as scum. A lot of his responses seem stilted and awkward to me and he could be buddying me.

It is perfectly warranted to try and show that line of thought is not correct.

Is stated my reason in 97 for the second. I didn't think pursuing alchemist was the right path to take so I dropped it.

[Raskolnikov]

VOTE: AJ L-3

[TKoE]

OK! That took long than I thought it would, sorry for my recent lack of content. Please allow me to try and make up for it now.

Self-meta is pretty common town or scum. It's more a player-dependent thing on whether or not they do it.

I feel like scum-elyse is a shade-thrower over an active accuser. I think her post was more just wrong/lack of knowledge as opposed to scum.

VOTE: TkoE

The entire post just doesn't mesh well. Mostly what Matt has already stated, but the last line is a huge issue. "I don't like what I'm reading" isn't good enough, needs to have a reason and example behind it other than "yeah all of it p.much sucks".

Well, ok then. I feel that Matt was overly quick to defend himself at a time when no one was strongly hunting for him, and the way he did so was by basically say "lol nah guys, I never play scum like this!" which is a pretty inane defense at the best of times, doubly so when it was unwarranted. Then he not only continued defending himself but got even more desperate about it, while still under very minimal pressure. This all culminates to show what looks like, to me, a very nervous person trying to cut suspicion off at the heels, before it gets out of hand. Town have no reason to suspect that they will be coming so heavily under fire in the first day.

I wouldn't call Matt's appeal to meta too indicative of alignment (especially since his claimed town-meta is posting content, so if he stops, we lynch him for being scum, and if he continues, we've got

that

to judge him on). Though if he gets focussed only on meta and not this game content we have a problem.

[...

It's odd for TKoE to say he has 'no' idea who is scum at this stage; especially with a vote on Matt - either that's 'some idea' or the vote's not scum-related. It seems bet-hedging to me.

I personally wouldn't say that him claiming to not post content is particularly helpful, but you're correct in that now assuming he does post we will have even more data to pin him with. So far though basically all he has done is focus on not only solely meta, but solely on

his own

meta. Therefore;

@SO: What is your opinion on Matt at this point? Do you think he has posted enough to satisfy his own asserted meta, and do you consider the content to not be problematic?

As to the last bit, I've explained that already, so I'm mainly leaving this here to remind myself to be more explicit in future :/
Though;

@SO: What would you infer from my so called 'bet-hedging'?

He took basically no stances, basically gave Matt instructions on how to avoid being scumread by him, didn't address my point and tried to turn it around on me instead, tip-toes around a TKoE scumread by calling him "odd", says he "could believe" Rask is newbtown (means nothing). Just everything about that was scummy.

So far everything I've seen from SO seems to be pretty much the usual from him, so I don't personally agree with your conclusion here. but;

@Elyse: Would you mind explaining to me why you think it would be a good idea for scum to give instructions on how to avoid a scum read? Seems a bit counter-intuitive to me.

Matt is a strong player I wouldn't expect to be so defensive.

I am a strong player and I am "defensive" all the time.

have you ever seen town be "too defensive"? the whole term itself is subjective.

also noting the fact you did not address the above statement.

does anybody want to high five me now for catching scum, or should we just wait a bit? Either way, I will keep my hand warm.

I'm sure a strong player like yourself is familiar with the difference between defensiveness and "oh shit they might be on to me panic panic panic" which is what I'm sure Elyse meant by 'Too Defensive', which, btw is in no way a particularly subjective term, it simply refers to being disproportionately defensive compared to those who are accusing you. If Matt had been at L-1 when he made his defense, then I for one would be markedly less suspicious of it, and yes, I have seen town being 'too defensive' though it's usually a particularly new or poor player. Neither of which Matt strikes me as.

I have some solid townreads considering it's only page 5

I'm not suprised! It's generally very easy for scum to determine who is town

When I'm scum I don't say anything because I'm scared shitless. Look up my meta of the last year. It's not WIFOMy, it's like an actual serious phobia, I wouldn't be posting content if I were scum

I thought this post was very defensive. It seemed like he had this defense ready and brought it out unnecessarily early, especially since no one was really calling him scum for any specific reason.

I've played with him here:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=61784

^this
However having someone who has played with Matt previously agreeing with me is sure a nice confidence boost.

At this point I could believe Rask as newb-town.

curious, how do you define a "newb"(says the old man asking the "goon")

Well, apologising for inexperience and talking about queuing for newbie games for a start! Asking theory questions about NKs and defensiveness. Mainly Rask's post about 'Accelerating Game'; 'technically' a wagon is the best way to get out of RVS, 'technically' the wagon had been derailed, without realising the discussion was gettting us out of RVS anyway.

#REKT

Ready to lynch Supreme Overlord

Brilliant! Sounds like a plan! However, just for shits and giggles, mind explaining why?

Matt, I'm going to respond to SO later but just wanted to post that so people knew I still thought he was scum.

I'll be waiting with bated breath

Elyse, what benefit do I gain from buddying you? You'd be the easiest lynch to dump on if I was scum because frankly buddying you wouldn't really get me that far.

I'm not really sure what to say about this post, but I felt it was worth including, this is a mighty odd thing to say.

@AJ - I am not saying you defending Elyse is a tell at all. Your response to Elyse is bad, because the "how I benefit as scum from the action" doesn't tend to come into town thoughts as much.

That and I have zero idea why you are voting TKoE

I generally consider it important to consider how your actions would be veiwed through the eyes of someone who

considers you

Scum, a subtle yet distinct difference. I could read AJs statement as either really.

And yeah, I'd like a better reason for him voting me too :'(

I don't buy that at all, to be honest. Considering I was responding to this:

As far as AJ goes, I could see him as scum. A lot of his responses seem stilted and awkward to me and he could be buddying me.

It is perfectly warranted to try and show that line of thought is not correct.

Is stated my reason in 97 for the second. I didn't think pursuing alchemist was the right path to take so I dropped it.

Now

You're

starting to sound overly defensive, also I don't think i quite follow your logic there;
"Well, I can't seem to get a group together to murder that Alchemist guy, hmmm who else could I get people to hate... How about TKoE!"
^that sound about right?

All in all, I still feel MattP to be the better lynch today. But Aj better straighten up and fly right, because he's looking all kinds of suspicious at the moment, And I could easily see myself switching over otherwise.

As it stands, my vote stays where it is, and;

FOS: Aj the Epic

.

If I've missed any questions directed at myslef please let me know, I hope to be more active now (basically because walls of text are painful ;-;)

[TKoE]

Ninja'd[/]

VOTE: AJ L-3

... really? You just pop in and throw a vote on Aj without another word? Dude... I know he is not exactly acting like a paragon of Townly virtue but that's not one at all.

[Aj The Epic]

Defensive? I doubt you realize what that word means because it applies to nothing in that post. I'm pointing out why my actions are valid and that I do this all the time.

Me analyzing thing from a scum perspective as town?
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 7#p7349887
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p7376693

This is why I don't understand the bullshit of 'Oh looking at things from a scum perspective is bullshit." No, that's 100% how I think in games so I can find what a scum would do.


Rask's vote is also bad. Just sitting one in there to be a part of a wagon. In the comfortable slot right in the middle and hoping it becomes popular enough that no one will notice him. In fact, his iso only has neutral or positive things to say about me. His sudden change for no reason could very easily be coming from scum.

[Elyse]

In that scenario (explaining how to remove a scumread) I'm thinking both SO and Matt are scum.

[TKoE]

In that scenario (explaining how to remove a scumread) I'm thinking both SO and Matt are scum.

I gathered that, but SO was telling Matt how to get rid of a Scumread by SO, seems like it'd be better to just not bring it up at all, no?

[Elyse]

I read it as "I'm scumreading you and I don't want to be. Do this so I don't have to anymore."

[TKoE]

This is why I don't understand the bullshit of 'Oh looking at things from a scum perspective is bullshit." No, that's 100% how I think in games so I can find what a scum would do.


Rask's vote is also bad. Just sitting one in there to be a part of a wagon. In the comfortable slot right in the middle and hoping it becomes popular enough that no one will notice him. In fact, his iso only has neutral or positive things to say about me. His sudden change for no reason could very easily be coming from scum.

I agree with both points here. Scum-modeling is an effective and valid way to play, though I usually avoid posting in that mindset. And that vote was dodgy as all hell.

I read it as "I'm scumreading you and I don't want to be. Do this so I don't have to anymore."

Ah, right that makes sense.

[curiouskarmadog]

Will update tomorrow