Mini 1936: Yume's Cutsie U-Pick (Town Win!)

[RadiantCowbells]

The problem is Cerberus & Drixx looking for the problem (them getting scumread) externally rather than internally.

[Cerberus v666]

Pedit: your claim that a lot of people saw us as scum as the same time is meaningless. It was D1, and people are sheep. Once mastina decided we were scum, it was inevitable that sheep who respect her would follow, because there's literally no reason not to.

I had the same independent conclusion. I was busy dealing with a bunch of unnecessary lies that made something feel like scumpartners, but I definitely thought that you were scum for the same set of posts that Mastina did. Our positions were not based on magic and witchcraft.

Also, RC: did you miss where mastina pointed out the post that got her scumreading us, which was essentially a meaningless post that occurs regardless of my alignment 100% of the time in that situation , where I want to participate but something is confusing me so I need it explained because I don't have time to look it up?

You're conflating

'I would definitely not understand how serious RC's read and would want to clarify it'
and
'I would make exactly that post in exactly that statement in exactly that context as scum.'

So, you did miss the post? Because THAT post wasn't even the one she was scumreading me for...

[RadiantCowbells]

I can't prove that Mastina correctly scumread you. I know exactly why I scumread you and I stand by it and I think it's perfectly reasonable that Mastina could have done so as well.

Can you link me games where you and Mastina were both town that show a pattern of her incorrectly scumreading you?

[Cerberus v666]

The problem is Cerberus & Drixx looking for the problem (them getting scumread) externally rather than internally.

That's also not true. I want people to express what they saw so as to avoid doing such things in the future, but all the answers I'm getting don't actually help.

There are posts I made with a scum mindset, and scum intention. There are posts I made in a purely reactionary, wholly me being me regardless of alignment fashion.

The latter are the ones being noted, which means none of you are ACTUALLY catching the scummy posts. You're interpreting NAI posts as scummy, which means you're getting lucky, rather than actually catching things.

Do note that you don't actually have any way to know my thought process when making those posts. I assure you, when I say a post is wholly NAI, it is. I would love it if someone actually attacked me over a scummy post I've made, but they don't.

[JaeReed]

Also Jae, you've deathtunneled me infinitely more often than nancy has. Don't criticize her ability to read me.

We've played together like 8 times?
1 time I was town and I don't remember it well but I had no reads and it was a marathon thing in the fallout shelter.
1 time I was scum and tried to call you scum in a marathon in the fallout shelter.
1 time I was town in a blitz in the fallout shelter and I didn't really have reads D1 and you died N1.
1 time I was town in Cocktail Party and you thought I was scum but I thought you could be town and actually doc'ed you that night.
1 time I was town and you were wanting to lynch nancy when I thought she was town and I didn't tunnel you there iirc and sheeped you on the D1 lynch? I think I scumread your mason partner tho.
1 time I was scum and you were scum (civ maf).
1 time I was town and you were town in smith's game and I'll freely admit I sucked there and tunneled you, ended up tilting super hard and replaced out because of it.
Then we have here, where I misread you.

Even aside from that.
I was repeatedly asking nancy for her read on you D1 and she was really noncommittal on it. So I only really had my own read to go off.

[Radical Rat]

Ah, you don't have to worry too much about it if you don't have time or energy!

Just y'know, don't feel like you have to hold back on my account

[JaeReed]

Drixx attempting to become confirmed town through setup means is somewhat of a tired trope since Civilization Mafia so I saw it coming a mile away.

ftr this is a good point @Drixx, the gambit was fine but I think would have worked better with less ppl who had been in Civ? idunno.

[Cerberus v666]

I can't prove that Mastina correctly scumread you. I know exactly why I scumread you and I stand by it and I think it's perfectly reasonable that Mastina could have done so as well.

Can you link me games where you and Mastina were both town that show a pattern of her incorrectly scumreading you?

You should ask Drixx for that, I don't think she scumreads me all the time. I also think that there's only one game we've had together where we were the same alignment, and she was actually participating a lot, and I was an IC in that game, so...doesn't really count.

I've played a lot more games versus scum!mastina than I have with town!mastina.

[RadiantCowbells]

You're not understanding what I'm saying.

Just because you're not consciously aware that you're playing with a scum mindset, doesn't mean that you aren't, doesn't mean that you won't have tells to pick up on.

You are not a perfect enough liar to be literally indistinguishable. I know that I certainly am not.

[JaeReed]

Also Jae, you've deathtunneled me infinitely more often than nancy has. Don't criticize her ability to read me.

We've played together like 8 times?
1 time I was town and I don't remember it well but I had no reads and it was a marathon thing in the fallout shelter.
1 time I was scum and tried to call you scum in a marathon in the fallout shelter.
1 time I was town in a blitz in the fallout shelter and I didn't really have reads D1 and you died N1.
1 time I was town in Cocktail Party and you thought I was scum but I thought you could be town and actually doc'ed you that night.
1 time I was town and you were wanting to lynch nancy when I thought she was town and I didn't tunnel you there iirc and sheeped you on the D1 lynch? I think I scumread your mason partner tho.
1 time I was scum and you were scum (civ maf).
1 time I was town and you were town in smith's game and I'll freely admit I sucked there and tunneled you, ended up tilting super hard and replaced out because of it.
Then we have here, where I misread you.

Even aside from that.
I was repeatedly asking nancy for her read on you D1 and she was really noncommittal on it. So I only really had my own read to go off.

*9 times, I forgot KH where we correctly read each other then I let things go to the shitter after you replaced out.

[Cerberus v666]

Oh, and I already addressed that post? I mean, I do get why it might have seemed weird to you guys, because I hadn't, in our previous games together, asked that particular question...but in those previous games, I didn't actually know you were both prone to lying and misleading town. You two, in particular, are people who I will always insist on nailing down regarding the strength of your reads, because unlike others, I know you're willing to lie about the strength of those reads to make people do what you want them to do.

pedit: And you're not getting what I'm saying. The posts you're noting were made with little enough thought that it simply isn't possible that scumminess crept into them, save for whatever scumminess my posts innately possess. I'm saying those posts WEREN'T LIES. They just were.

[RadiantCowbells]

You're just wrong though. You're dunning kreugering here and thinking that because you don't understand how your scum mentality could creep in, it couldn't have crept in.

Purely based on winrate I am far more successful as scum than you and I acknowledge easily that my posts aren't exactly what they'd be as town.

[RadiantCowbells]

Like: you don't have to be -lying- or -misrepresenting your thought process deliberately- to be scummy in your posting, or scum would win almost every game.

[RadiantCowbells]

(I mean they do: but still )

[Cerberus v666]

Sure. The problem though is my posting is scummy to some extent all of the time. :p
And sure, I don't necessarily possess the self awareness to see the scum in my posts, but enough people who know me and my speech and thought patterns far better than you or mastina also fail to see anything out of the ordinary in those posts, so....

[mastina]

The problem, as I see it, is that you seem to default to I and/or us are scum

every game

for awhile now.

Could it be, mayhaps, because you were actually fucking scum in them? You were scum this game. You were scum in Steven Universe 2. You were scum in StrangerCoug's game. Those are the last three games I can recall playing with you. And you were scum in all of them. So me having a scumread on you there was...actually fucking correct?

You can't forget your own alignment in the games where I called you scum. If you've actually fucking been scum in the games where I called you scum. Then I'm going to not feel bad for calling you scum? If a pattern emerges where I mistakenly call you scum when you're town. Then what happens is I first forfeit my right to say I can definitely read you (I've already done so for your half Drixx thanks to our very first encounter which is a lifelong stain that never will go away), and if it persists, then I go into the territory of players like RadiantCowbells, Alisae, and Firebringer, where I will flat-out admit, "I can't read these players but I am obligated to try, so I am sharing what read I have even though I know the read is probably shit".

That can also happen if vice-versa is true, where I call you as scum, town. I first forfeit my right to say I can definitely read you, then if it persists, I then place you in the category of players like RadiantCowbells, Alisae, and Firebringer where I self-admittedly can't read them, won't pretend I can, and yet am obligated to attempt a read in spite of knowing it won't be a good one.

...But.
...In order for that to happen.

...First we gotta play games together.
I'm always down for that!

The problem it creates is that you really don't explain your scum reads generally.

I can't. On a fundamental level, I've tried. Every angle, it's basically impossible for me to do so. My first language isn't English, which is the language I'd need to convey my scumreads in. My first language is concepts as I call it, in that I will get a read on the conceptual level. And then that's my read. But how do you explain in what's essentially a foreign language what you have so naturally in your own?

You DO; however, despite just now openly admitting being right essentially about as often as random chance this game, play as if those reads are ironclad truth.

And I always acknowledge it postgame for better or for worse. Heck I often don't even wait until postgame, I will do so midgame too. It is a byproduct of the above. If I can't explain my reads. What CAN I do? I can push them, and push them hard. Let's say you had an inability to explain your reads. What approach to the game would YOU take? What approach would a you, who gets reads but can't explain them, take towards those reads?

My answer is pushing them, and pushing them hard. Is it a perfect answer, no, but it's the best answer I've got because I can't think of any other option. "Just learn to explain your reads" isn't one. Telling me that is like telling me the secret to polevault is to learn how to be propelled forward/upward by the bend of the stick, in that sure it might be something technically accurate but it's useless for actually teaching.

I have a weakness in my process, a fundamental process which is probably never going away because I honestly think it's impossible FOR it to go away (some brains are just hardwired in ways which cannot have certain rewiring done). What I've got is what I've got, and it's the best I've developed. If I think of something better fuck yeah I'll do that thing instead of what I'm currently doing, but pushing hard my reads which I can't explain is the best I've got in the now.

You cannot be reasoned with and any evidence contrary gets hand waved away.

People say this and yet they don't bother to pay attention to what I actually do. I

can

be reasoned with and do so all the time. I'm just low-key about it. I show with my actions rather than my words. I back down from pushes all the time. I shift pushes all the time. That's me being reasonable, that's me reasoning with you because that's my answer. Not to engage in a lengthy explanation-battle because I don't do explanations. I am not going to tell you I am being reasonable. I am going to show you I am being reasonable. So relying on a verbal recognition as proof won't happen because it's nonverbally communicated.

Similarly so for evidence. When I don't acknowledge it it's because I don't have a way to acknowledge it. Because I don't do words well. It's part of my autism. (Which is pretty common knowledge.) I don't communicate well. So when people directly challenge me to communicate something well...I deflect. Because they are asking the impossible of me.

That makes it exceptionally difficult to work with you (when we're both town) and to properly read you (when we're town and you are not).

Well the former requires you to actually be town.
And, when we are, we do so well enough. As far as I can recall, we worked well together in the original Steven Universe game. You were right in some areas I wasn't (and actually managed to convince me as such), I was right in some areas you weren't (and you eventually came around to my point of view albeit for your own reasons unrelated to mine).

The latter, not my fault I'm a competent scumplayer? I mean. When in doubt, read the flowchart, 'cause I really am not unreadable. I'm predictable, even. You just have to have a basic understanding of my process and I've thought you would have, you having seen me as town countless times. (Though come to think of it I don't think you've ever seen me as scum? I sure have no memory of it.)

[RadiantCowbells]

Sure. The problem though is my posting is scummy to some extent all of the time. :p
And sure, I don't necessarily possess the self awareness to see the scum in my posts, but enough people who know me and my speech and thought patterns far better than you or mastina also fail to see anything out of the ordinary in those posts, so....

Well, I'd say I'm probably better at mafia in general than the vast majority of those people, regardless of my meta knowledge on you.

[RadiantCowbells]

Jae, the difference is that you completely broke down Smith's game and ruined it for me and caused a town loss when my reads were super dead on and in this case you simply refused to change or discuss the read. It should have been really clear that I was coming from a town thought process here given that I was wrong because you guys just kept fucking lying to me about the nature of the out of game connection: why shouldn't I think that you're scum if something's going on that I don't understand because you keep lying about it?

[nancy]

I was repeatedly asking nancy for her read on you D1 and she was really noncommittal on it. So I only really had my own read to go off.

???
Why do you lie like this? I shouldn't even make this post but fuck, I told you I thought he was town, when I said that you said I was shit at reading him and that you didn't care about my read and he was scum until mod confirmation, during my catchup in hood I talked about how I thought he was town, my final read of him was "probably town", my read was never ambiguous except for the first like 8 pages of the game. The only time I wasn't townreading him was when I was tunneled on the dayvig for a while before I got over that and went back to my townread. I spent so much time resisting other people's scumreads on him and I voted him in thread out of respect for your and Gin's desire to lynch him.

You even said so yourself:

The only problem is nance thinks you're town because she's absolutely awful at reading you.

So please don't lie about what I've said, please don't lie about my ability to read RC out of some personal grudge over "who's better" or whatever it is for you, please don't try and manipulate what I've said to make it seem like you're the good guy and I did bad so that you have nothing to apologize for ever. Just basically stop talking about me, at all, ever. Please.

[Ginngie]

You're not understanding what I'm saying.

Just because you're not consciously aware that you're playing with a scum mindset, doesn't mean that you aren't, doesn't mean that you won't have tells to pick up on.

You are not a perfect enough liar to be literally indistinguishable. I know that I certainly am not.

I actually fucking love this post.

[Vaxkiller]

gg

[mastina]

I can't even recall how many games, this is the first time she's actually explicitly stated that half of what she says is bullshit, which is what I ALWAYS believed

It both is, and isn't. See also, can't explain myself worth shit. Just because I see something doesn't mean that something isn't there, more or less. Basically, I ~see~ things. These things aren't just reads, but also narratives. As in, I will see something. I will piece it together. And I will have a story from it. But when I try to vocalize this, when I try to verbalize that read, I can't find the right words for it. So I guess. So I fill in the blanks. It's like. Hmm. "Lost in translation". Let me put it to you this way.

Say there were a data file.
Say this data file then went through some sort of conversion.
But then say that in the conversion process, some of that information from the original data file was lost.
The program running the conversion process then has to "guess" what the missing data was. These guesses sometimes get it right, sometimes get it wrong, and sometimes they don't even realize there's missing data, in which case the converted file has a fatal error, because something which was supposed to be there was lost, with nothing added to replace it.

That's literally how my brain works, and what I mean when I say that I guess, that I fill in the blanks: sometimes I get it right, sometimes I get it wrong, sometimes I don't even realize that the concept has been corrupted in the transition to words. Thus. For lack of a better term. My mind, the program running the conversion process from the concept data file to English words. Bullshits.

From my understanding, something akin to this is not at all uncommon in the autistic world. I'm sure every autistic person has their own purple prose way of explaining it, but ultimately I think that if you use some creative interpretation of what they say you can see the pattern emerge of them mostly thinking in a similar way to what I describe. Their descriptions differ, because their "conversion algorithm" as it were is different (they are after all a different person with different experiences), but the process is probably much the same.

but she always spent all her time patting herself on the back, and not acknowledging screwing up in a pure way.

I always acknowledge shortcomings. Always. But at the same time, I reserve the right to acknowledge strengths--especially in postgame, which is a time meant for positivity. Fuck yeah I'd rather focus on the good than the bad in the end of a game, ESPECIALLY a game I lost.

So yes. I go "yes I fucked up, but!". Because that's how EVERYONE should go. Acknowledging what they did wrong (because NO PLAYER plays a picture-perfect game; EVERY PLAYER will have done SOMETHING wrong at SOME point in the game no matter how minuscule), but also paying tribute to what they didn't mess up on, with honest analysis about it and an emphasis on the positive and to look forward to the future.

[JaeReed]

I was repeatedly asking nancy for her read on you D1 and she was really noncommittal on it. So I only really had my own read to go off.

???
Why do you lie like this? I shouldn't even make this post but fuck, I told you I thought he was town, when I said that you said I was shit at reading him and that you didn't care about my read and he was scum until mod confirmation, during my catchup in hood I talked about how I thought he was town, my final read of him was "probably town", my read was never ambiguous except for the first like 8 pages of the game. The only time I wasn't townreading him was when I was tunneled on the dayvig for a while before I got over that and went back to my townread. I spent so much time resisting other people's scumreads on him and I voted him in thread out of respect for your and Gin's desire to lynch him.

You even said so yourself:

The only problem is nance thinks you're town because she's absolutely awful at reading you.

So please don't lie about what I've said, please don't lie about my ability to read RC out of some personal grudge over "who's better" or whatever it is for you, please don't try and manipulate what I've said to make it seem like you're the good guy and I did bad so that you have nothing to apologize for ever. Just basically stop talking about me, at all, ever. Please.

You said he was town then you said you didn't know then you said he could be scum then you said he was town then you didn't know whenever I asked you on skype. :/ Like yeah you ended up thinking he was town but then you kept saying you hadn't been reading fully/up to date so what the fuck am I meant to read from that? "probably town" still feels really "I don't know" to me.

And when you voted him you didn't ask me either and I would have asked you and that's the respect thing that I mentioned.

And no, I don't think I'm better. I think RC's comment was unfair when I've seen us both be wrong on him about in the same measure, though.
Like I'm sorry I forgot about one snapshot of the game where you called RC town. I legitimately forgot. But you were flip flopping and you even mention that when you bring up the dayvig change and the early game. :/ I could never be certain on your read on him and when you did have a read on him I already had a strong scumread there and yours still seemed flip floppy to me.
Contrary to what you think I don't have a personal grudge and I'm not trying to manipulate anything. I already apologized for shit and even said you had a right to be upset?

[mastina]

Can you link me games where you and Mastina were both town that show a pattern of her incorrectly scumreading you?

The only one I can even remotely think about would be the Steven Universe Prequel, but in that game I wasn't even in it until my hydra partner replaced out of it. I was struggling every step of the way and that was just as much his read as it was mine if not moreso. Like. 95% of the posts in our hydra were his. And I wasn't posting much outside of the game thread either so it's not like this game where I was active behind closed doors. I just wasn't in the game.

Then again you like to pin the vig attempt on you-the-IC on me from that very same game, so. You'd probably take Cerb's side on that.

[mastina]

You should ask Drixx for that, I don't think she scumreads me all the time. I also think that there's only one game we've had together where we were the same alignment, and she was actually participating a lot, and I was an IC in that game, so...doesn't really count.

Would that be Final Fantasy 7, or Steven Universe?

I was town in both and you if I recall correctly were town in Final Fantasy 7, too. (Though you could make an argument there either way RE: me reading you. Literally half the game I read you as scum; literally half the game, I read you as town. So I was wrong on one half and right on the other, meaning you kinda have to choose which half is the important half in terms of which read counts because they were in existence for about equal amounts of time, about equal amounts of posts, and about equal amounts of content, so. Neither's really more dominant than the other.)

Also outside of Inorganic Chemistry (which I don't even remember if you were a player in or not? Vaguely kinda sorta think you could have been?), I honestly don't recall being scum in a game with you. Though that doesn't mean I wasn't, just that my memory sucks.