13p Normal [TM2015]

[pieguyn]

what exactly don't you understand about it? since Mala got no result and thus knew she got RB'ed immediately after N1 ended, she would know

in advance before claiming her target

that her action wouldn't have shown up. I don't know what you don't get about this.

[pieguyn]

but yes, keep telling yourself that anyone who disagrees with you is dumb

[pieguyn]

. . . . . . .

if you're really going to base assumptions on the notion that people just don't have common sense, I have no interest in continuing this conversation any further. but hey, not the first time you've done this this game

[pieguyn]

(and yes, I fully admit I'm being a dick bc your attitude is fucking awful, so I've lost all interest in being civil. sue me)

[pieguyn]

except RB'd actions not being on tracker/watcher reports is, as I said, common knowledge

you don't have to look up anything on the wiki to be aware of it. I for one definitely knew about it, but wasn't aware of x-shot roles getting their shots refunded not being normal - and this was the case without me looking up either roleblocker or "Normal" on the wiki

[pieguyn]

and even if it *wasn't* necessarily common knowledge, it's still a bad assumption to make

like seriously, think about it more. you're attempting to clear SK here and it's based around the assumption that MALA WOULDN'T HAVE KNOWN HOW ROLE INTERACTIONS WORK. did it never occur to you that's a really dangerous assumption you have to make in order to clear someone?

[pieguyn]

I really don't see how it's risky? in her case, it's not like she actually did anything to him, or was even capable of doing anything to him in the first place (given you can't just shoot someone, whereas you can, for example, make up a cop report which can then be confirmed/disproven). as I said, I don't really have any data on it, but I would expect that there is no risk in claiming an action on a scum partner for her claim here.

I'll elaborate on some of the stuff that pinged us later. it's 5 PM and I'm still half-asleep -.-

[pieguyn]

fucking lol'd

seriously, your attitude is among the worst I've ever seen. I've never seen anyone who can create this kind of a toxic atmosphere in a game where we've lynched scum on D1 _and_ D2, explicitly IN RESPONSE to the scum lynches occurring.

[pieguyn]

sthar apparently doesn't like the way I push lynches, or the way I argue, or something along those lines

discounting the fact that the way I pushed Mala D2 was a pretty huge factor in getting her lynched when she almost certainly wouldn't have been at that point otherwise

I'm assuming because there isn't a real interest in lynching him there's some reason he's town that I'm missing though?

I don't really think his play D1 comes from scum. he would have been bussing Thor at a point where it doesn't make much sense to do so. I also say his frustration here (while completely fucking dumb) is genuine. in particular, his posts near the end of D2. he complained really loudly that I was strong arming the Mala lynch through, but I'm fairly sure he was aware the way he was doing it would have about a 0% chance of actually derailing the lynch, and thus that it'd make him look really bad if Mala flipped scum.

essentially, scum-him would need just about as much credibility as possible, but the way he did it had the effect of destroying it all, and I think he'd be aware of this and thus play it more carefully if he was scum here

more recently, I also like his defense of jason/your slot, given I'm pretty sure your slot was the scum-designated mislynch until it got derailed

[pieguyn]

sthar voted Thor way earlier than that iirc - it was way back when I first started pushing Thor

[pieguyn]

these are the SK posts that we were looking at:

Well shit deadline's probably going to hit before I wake up and I'm still not right in the head. I think a TH lynch is the best viable option. Going to go pull up the stuff that set my teammates' scumdars off.

initially attempting to push TH over Thor D1.

Fuccccckkkkkk that Nacho read stuff

mastin thinks this looks like "crap, my buddy messed up" - in response to me agreeing with TH's angle that Thor was BS'ing reads from his teammates

That leaves Egg, Delta, Boon, Vyse, and Mala.

Based on a quick check, Boonskies never talked to or mentioned Thor at all. Not even at the end of the Day, after Trojan caught Thor in a lie.
Egg's vote felt so fucking scummy when I read it.
Vyse, null.
Delta, null.

I made my stance clear. I'm not risking lynching a claimed PR on D1. Too much risk; not much profit (unless thor is scum).

I hate hate hate hate hate hate hate this post.

Right now, I want an Egg or Boon lynch. Fielders' choice.

this looks inconsistent:

"Egg, Delta, Boon, Vyse, Mala!"
Boon not mention Thor, Vyse/Delta null, Egg fucking scummy, *hate* Mala's post here.
*ignores Mala*
Egg or Boon!

/golfclap

Also, I don't realize how I'm playing bad this game...besides my self-meta, I feel I'm playing pretty solid.

didn't vote Thor, didn't vote Mala, avoiding voting Bins

VOTE: Bins

voting Bins while posturing to lynch Boon the next day (today). this sort of open-ended play is typical of scum who need a bunch of mislynches to nagivate endgame.

...
I could see scum jason making this play
But that would require jason to be scum
:/

.
.
.

I'm just having a REALLY hard time believing that jason is this bad

this reads to me like scum attempting to soft-push a mislynch (jason/Zach-slot) without actually being on the wagon. the first post is really eh - I don't really know what the point of it is besides attempting to keep the status quo re: focus/paranoia on jason without actually accomplishing anything. he questions jason for a few posts after this and pretty blatantly calls jason scum in the second post, but doesn't actually commit to a scum read on him. I think the best motivation for this is that *if* there turns out not to be momentum for a jason lynch, he can easily back off and not really be tied to the wagon (Egg gets all the fall for it). he doesn't want to commit to a scum read on jason bc he'd look like obvscum if people quit being idiotic and realize that jason has to be town here.

Zach, so you swapped in to defend yourself better than Jason was? It seems like a survivalistic move to me.

HOLY SHIT
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Egg

P sure safeclaims are explicitly non-Normal.

That Egg post is terrible and opportunistic and scummy and awful. I'll explain later today/tomorrow.

while this isn't scummy by itself, this is consistent with the above quote: setting Egg up to take the fall for the jason wagon. and the thing is, this is yet another place where he's blatantly leaving himself a bunch of lynch options open. he has Egg here, and is *again* setting up Boon to be lynched the next day (tomorrow) with posts like 1701, 1713, among others:

do you think Boon would play scum predictably or logically

White knighting and buddying are both things and they're both actual terms and they're different please don't try to be haughty and smart when actually you have no clue what you're talking about

I don't really get the impression he cares about forming reads or getting his strongest scum read lynched. I get the impression he's playing a survival game here.


[line]
everything up to the 4th point (lining up Bins/Boon D3) is stuff mastin pointed out in our team PT a while back that I didn't point out bc there were more relevant things to discuss. everything after that is moreso stuff I've noticed about his recent play.

[pieguyn]

o geez, I screwed that post in multiple places. anyway

@sthar: I'm looking through your Egg case now and while I don't agree with 100% of it, I think other parts of it are compelling. if you're actually going to give a shit, I'll elaborate on the parts I disagree with, but it's rather pointless to do this when you're just going to ignore everything I say anyway

[pieguyn]

I really hope I don't have to explain why I did each and every one of those things as town
Some of them should be really obvious and I'm kinda annoyed that pie isn't (visibly) considering them and it's rubbing me the wrong way but like, pie

cannot

be scum.

at this point, it's not so much about specific posts as it is about the overall narrative of the game. I don't think any of it is 100% strong or anything and I'm not sure whether the last scum is you or Egg. but regardless, if someone appears to be lining a bunch of people up when scum need 3 mislynches to win, you have to consider that it might be coming from scum, regardless of what the specific reasoning behind it is

[pieguyn]

yo Boon, would you be up for an SK lynch?

[pieguyn]

the other thing I'm wondering is if there is literally any way at all sthar can be scum here

bc if there's not, I would feel 100% comfortable just autolynching SK -> Egg -> Boon (not caring about order except I'd want Boon last) since I have I WILL EAT YOU IF YOU LYNCH THESE PEOPLE level town reads on everyone else in the game

overall I feel too many things just don't make any sense at all with sthar as scum, which makes me think I can upgrade him as well

(this is not me calling sthar scum for anyone watching, it's just me wanting to figure out if he's 95% town or 100% town)

[pieguyn]

(I'm saying I'd bet the game on all of {you, Zach, DW} being town and that it doesn't matter who specifically we lynch if we get one more town read and can all agree on said town reads, since there's only 3 people left. this is different from trying to spread suspicion around on multiple people at the same time)

[pieguyn]

Needed to bring this up since Pie is arguing that Delta is town and should never be lynched.

I'm townreading DW for a few reasons:

1. his attitude towards Thor lynch was essentially "fuck you all for lynching a PR" which both me and mastin think is town. more elaboration on this in 1089 - it makes even more sense when you consider his team thought Thor was 1-shot cop fake claiming hider.

2. Mala kept pushing him from the start of D2 with a really shallow case - it read a lot more like scum making a shallow push on town than scum bussing a partner. I don't really think that interaction makes sense as scum x scum.

plus I haven't really found anything about his play scummy.

(either way, I agree trying to pre-plan all the lynches is rather pointless, and everyone would have to agree to it first. it was more for my own thoughts/consolidation)

Three thoughts from Tammy:

1. Tammy told me about a game she played with Mala, where Mala went after a particular player because their RVS vote turned out to be a scum. Because of that, Tammy doesn't think Mala would vote her scummate during RVS (i.e. Tammy thinks SK is town).

2. Mala claimed to have shot SK night 1, but that wasn't really consistent with her earlier reads. Tammy thinks that Mala just forgot her read on SK... but she wouldn't have forgotten her read if SK was her scummate.

re 1: I'm not sure how Mala not voting her scum partner would follow from her pushing someone for RVS'ing her partner in a different game. are you sure that isn't just a coincidence and it's entirely unrelated to this?

re 2: it not being consistent with her reads indicates that either she forgot her read on SK, or........ she just BS'ed a shot on her partner bc she saw it fit later to distance. I think this makes as much sense with SK-scum as it does with SK-town.

[pieguyn]

I don't see any post from day 3 on where SK was trying to push a Boon lynch. He has complained about Boon playing badly, but that's not the same as trying to push a Boon lynch.

disagree. him pointing out Boon is playing badly for being off both scum could just as easily be used as an attack later e.g. "you avoided both scum wagons". and his posts today could pretty easily be used to posture for an attack on Boon as well - even if there's no actual push to get Boon lynched, there's a lot of weak jabs and potshots towards him.

[pieguyn]

1. his attitude towards Thor lynch was essentially "fuck you all for lynching a PR" which both me and mastin think is town. more elaboration on this in 1089 - it makes even more sense when you consider his team thought Thor was 1-shot cop fake claiming hider.

more on this, compare DW's behavior re: Thor lynch to, ex. Mala's in posts like 833

it's night and day. Mala knows Thor is scum and is acting all wishy-washy and apologetic over voting the counterwagon, bc she knows people will be looking at it if Thor ever flips and she's worried that by just acting naturally she'll draw suspicion. DW, on the other hand, doesn't give a shit. rather than trying to use the situation to his advantage, what he did comes off as someone genuinely thinking it's a shit idea not to lynch a PR on D1 and not understanding why Thor is getting lynched.

[pieguyn]

more thoughts from mastin:

mastin thinks scum would be more likely to back off the jason push when it became likely it wouldn't go through, as opposed to continuing to force it through. as a result, we basically agree on SK's recent play. compare this:

If STD was serious when he said he was going to block me...

THERES YER PROBLEM

You're explaining why you considered STD scum a possibility
You're not explaining why you decided that possibility was more likely than STD being town

I'm just having a REALLY hard time believing that jason is this bad

Wouldn't it have made more sense for scum Jason to say that STD blocked him?

That would require us to believe that STD is an idiot

all of these say he should be voting, but he's not. then:

oh right jason has to be town because of balance
What's this about an unclaimed PR?
Anyway like I said earlier claiming to have been blocked would require us to believe that STD is an idiot but it's irrelevant because balance. I just want STD to know he's not an idiot.

Still think you're town because setup spec
I can see that jason was getting frustrated so I don't think you're lying about why the swap happened.

the awkward transition when it becomes obvious jason is not scum. then:

Zach, so you swapped in to defend yourself better than Jason was? It seems like a survivalistic move to me.

HOLY SHIT
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Egg

pushing the new easy target.

TO:

Jason ISO:

Spoiler: WALL

Day 1:
0- This was that nervous sounding double RVSing post he caught crap for
1-2 - Possible reaction to Thor bus? Also questioned Mala. I'm curious about any follow up. I don't remember any off hand but that was 65 pages and 3 game days ago.
3-5 - Just answering questions
6-13 - questioning and small attacks all on currently living players, then the Boon vote.
14- 18 - Answering stuff, banter, pushing Boon.
19-22 - Going ape shit for Boon stuff
23-25 - About wagon on him
26 -

In bold text, says he is town reading Thor

27-35 - Defending self, pushing Boon
36-37 - Responds to small jab from Mala about attacking easy targets and avoiding questions. I actually could really see this as scum/scum.
38-39 - Defending self. Mala seems persistent. Looks slightly less like scum/scum now. Hmm. Jason also seems to be getting frustrated, but *shrug*. I could see that whether he is town or scum being bussed by Thor and now attacked by scumbuddy Mala too.
40 - Soft attack on Delta
41 - Defending self
42 - The infamous token talk.
43-54 - Defending from Thor. I notice a lighter tone than when he was defending himself before. And not once has he come close to calling Thor scum. He's specifically addressing points, but not questioning the motives behind Thor's attack.
55-62 - Still defending from Thor, but the tone suddenly changed. It's no longer light. Why did it take so long to start "calling BS" on Thor's case? Thor's case didn't change. What is interesting is that it was during this discussion (around Jason's 50th post) that the Thor wagon started.
63-65 - Bringing up old points against Boon
66-68 - Talking to Sleepykrew about Boon
69 - This post is interesting. He says his team is scumreading Thor, but didn't say why. And now he brings up his own points against Thor that could have applied earlier when he said Thor was town. Ends with a final Thor read of "conflicted". Now this feels like obvscum, right? I dunno. The interesting part is that this is coming from his team. But they aren't using reasons. So it's probably a genuine reason UNLESS they are reading the game and helping with fake reads OR he just needed a reason to 180 his read. I dunno. A lot of my read on Jason will probably come from how I end up interpreting this post.
70-71 - Now he's talking to Thor as if he is scum reading him. But he didn't say he was. He said he was "conflicted". Telling Thor that he (Thor) is only on the (Jason) wagon because it's easy and he doesn't have to do anything doesn't feel "conflicted". It also doesn't feel true. Thor pushed pretty hard. Yes, Thor was scum. But this is still a false point against him.
72 - Pushes Boon some more. Says Thor is an asshole whether town or scum. Hmm. Would he say that to a scumbuddy? Would he say it as town about someone who he is "conflicted" on? The answer to both seems like no, but neither feels less likely than the other.
73 - Again, I don't think Thor was on the sidelines.
74- 0 content
75 - Emotional response to Mala about Boon. I don't see any attempt to read Mala here, but there's that emotion when talking to scum that doesn't feel scum/scum again. Not sure what to think.
76 - Deadline votes Thor. Says he is "on the fence" on him.
77-78 - Attacks deadline votes after having just made one himself. Claims bodyguard.
79 - Defends self, attacks wagon
80-81 - Questions Trojan
82-85 - Now he is hardpushing Thor, but unvotes because of the claim. I can see this as scumbuddies coordinating claims of investigative/protective to out roles or force a mislynch or no lynch.
86-89 - Looking at wagons for new deadline lynch. Seems to favor Sleepykrew. I can see this coming from either alignment
90-91 - Asks mod for extension. Would he do this as scum? I think only if he's confident his team can get a mislynch. But I see no reason why he would be. Hmm.
92 - Votes Trojan. Says don't lynch a power role. What I find interesting is that after being so slow to call Thor scum and finally believing for a whopping three posts that Thor is scum, he never questioned the claim or tried to strategically decide what to do with the claim. He just went "ah fuck, unvote" and voted somewhere else.
93-96 - Doesn't want to talk about old points. Doesn't think no lynch benefits scum. Interesting. Day ends with his vote on Trojan and no discussion of Thor after the unvote. Hmm.

Day 2:
97: Discusses end of Day 1 and says he protected Pie. Shows weak reads on Boon (WTF?), Delta, and Sleepykrew.
98: Wants Delta lynch. Also calls Sleepykrew scum. No mention of the Mala wagon which is up to three at that point.
99: Continues Mala's line of questioning on Boon.
100: Emotional response to Sleepykrew.
101: Hmm. Calls Mala townish. Would love to know why.
102: Calls Vyse wagon "easy". Note he is scum reading Delta and Sleepykrew.
103: Sthar is gut scum now?
104-105: Votes Delta then questions him
106: Tells Vyse to catch up and give content
107-108 - Defends Boon vote Day 1.
109 - Sleepykrew BS
110 - Prod dodge. "Conflicted" on Mala. This sounds familiar LMAO. Defends Boon (Huh?)
111-113 - Defending Boon
114-115 - Admits his points were wrong in defending Boon
116 - Delta is a better lynch than Mala. (Just like Trojan was better than Thor)
117 - V/LA
118 - Bad case on Delta.
119 - V/LA
120-122 - calls lolslip on Sleepykrew for welcoming Bins only to later realize this was announced in the main thread.
123 - Promotes consolidation. So are deadline votes only bad when they are on him?
124-129 - Asking Mala about her claim. Shows skepticism.
130 - Soft attack on Sthar.
131 - Seems to really doubt Mala's claim. Note still no vote and none of the "we can't lynch a claimed power role" mentality from Day 1
132 - Backs soft attack from 130. Ends day with vote still on Delta.

Day 3:
133 - Protected Pie. Votes Bins. I'd expect this regardless of his alignment.
134-136 - Discussing Bins.
137 - Questions Boon's logic.

So............................

Originally, I thought I remembered him not being likely scum because of Thor interactions. But looking back, the only reason to think this is if you think Thor wouldn't bus. And...he would. So. That being said, there were a few town looking things in here. I don't really think they outweigh the fact that he avoided the Thor wagon after the claim and the Mala wagon completely while even agreeing with the points against the claim. Also, this is Mod WIFOM, but I'm not sure I buy a RB+BG setup. Most Mods use a RB instead of a protective role or view it as a protective role because it can stop kills. Not protecting STD is kinda BS too.

Vote Jason

Preview edit: After I submit, I'll look for STD saying he was blocking you. You'd actually be clear if he did.

actually putting legwork into forming an opinion, and backing it up with evidence.

Boon, you really think Day 1 came down to

two scum wagons?

It kinda did. It was me mostly, then Thor.

There

were

wagons appeared briefly on Boon and Trojan that mostly didn't get of the ground (gotta double check Trojan though) but for the most part, it seemed like only Thor or myself were seriously considered and pushed.

Um, what? How is this anything but a scum claim? Lol (And further reading shows Trojan pointed this out already...)

mastin thought this ^ in particular read genuine

Do you disagree? I mean if Jason was getting emotional as a town bodyguard, one successful protect results in his death anyway or one correct lynch ends the game. I don't see any reason why a town bodyguard would resort to swapping out over getting emotional.

continuing to push jason/Zach as scum even despite the fact it's obvious at this point they won't get lynched.

the difference here is, again, night and day. Egg actually believes jason is scum here, and is trying to see to it that either he gets jason/Zach lynched or is otherwise convinced he's not scum. Egg's actions don't fit the profile of what scum would be likely to do here: he's still pushing Zach despite the fact that he gets nothing out of it (Zach isn't getting lynched, ever). on the other hand, SK is pushing easy targets and going with the flow of whoever people are suspecting at the time, without committing to a firm stance on any of it (see: the vast number of posts where he spreads suspicion about jason/Zach without pushing it).

it's as I alluded to earlier. SK is playing a survival game here.

---

she also wants to reemphasize this:

except RB'd actions not being on tracker/watcher reports is, as I said, common knowledge

you don't have to look up anything on the wiki to be aware of it. I for one definitely knew about it, but wasn't aware of x-shot roles getting their shots refunded not being normal - and this was the case without me looking up either roleblocker or "Normal" on the wiki

she says (speaking as a Normal reviewer, and one who was involved with the decision to make x-shot roles not have their shots refunded normal) that roleblockers' targets not visiting has been the standard practice for a very long time, and that it is indeed common knowledge.
on the other hand, x-shots not getting refunds was a debated topic, and one that only reached a conclusion *very* recently (days before the conception of this game).
ergo, Mala would know she wouldn't visit (bc that's how it was ever since she joined), but not that x-shots wouldn't get refunds, as it's a recent change.

[pieguyn]

she also tells both

@Egg

(re: 1797) that she's busting her ass trying to save his - and that, as mastin and I have shared most of the reads over the course of this game, her reads have been equally solid to mine. in other words, to sheep her. ~

and

@Boon

(re: 1799) that this is even more so the case for him bc I was thinking Boon was scum and she was the one who kept convincing me over and over that he was, in fact, town.

Egg is town, SK is scum.

[pieguyn]

Pie, go ahead and tell me what your reservations are on Egg. If I were ignoring everything you say, I certainly wouldn't be getting as frustrated as I have.

this will likely come tomorrow, depending on whether I can get through it before I pass out. it's 5 AM .-.

[pieguyn]

Pie, go ahead and tell me what your reservations are on Egg. If I were ignoring everything you say, I certainly wouldn't be getting as frustrated as I have.

Egg's day1 play was very hedgy. Not the 'I dunno what's going on' hedgy, but the 'I'm not sure I want this opinion on record' kind. Here, it's specifically 'hey pie lets be friends, but leave my buddy thor alone. unless he flips, then there was something weird about that guy all along.'

I don't really think this is scummy. a lot of the time, this just ends up being a coincidence more than anything (similar to what I said earlier in the game about someone ignoring scum never seems to actually make it more likely they're scum with them). off the top of my head, I know Micc did something similar near game start and was town - it's not exactly the same, but there's still him having a few vague thoughts but not having a read either way.

Going to ammend that to quickly skimming and posting.

People keep stressing that I get more involved and then not commenting on the posts I do make. Scum points for them even though I cant remember who it was off the top of my head.

Thor push feels decent, but thats mostly me looking at the Jason wagon and thinking this is how scum Thor pushes mislynches and knowing that i always find myself on scum-Thor lead mislynches. Tbh i barely even skimmed through most of pie's posts at the end because i wanted to get to writting instead of reading.

Sthar is voting Egg. Id like to see that explained sooner rather than later.

Deltawave i think your case on STD is bad. The over justification reasoning is you pushing him for a playstyle thing.

I dislike Trojan horse more and more with every catchup i make. Cant pick out why.

Unvote: Jason

I saw the words intent to hammer and claim at some point, so this is me making it clear that im no where near ready for that. Give me tomorrow to travel back to school and watch basketball, then after that i promise to be off the post every ~48 hours activity cycle.

Note this is a flashwagon anywhere but Thor.

with this point, I still don't really understand what exactly you think he was trying to do. what scum would put all the effort into saving their partner - and then, when deadline hits and their partner isn't getting lynched, go "fuck it" and hammer him anyway?

I still don't really think the way he went about it makes sense coming from scum.

There's quite a bit of Egg arguing irrelevant theory like this.

I'm not seeing why this is scummy, either - I only really think arguing theory is scummy if it's accompanied with a distinct lack of scumhunting, as this generally happens when scum are looking for an easy way to coast. I personally think Egg has done a fair amount of scum hunting so far, although you probably disagree. (plus, in this case, the theory Egg was arguing was neither irrelevant nor incorrect, it's what I've been saying this whole time - no lynch on D1 is functionally the same thing as a mislynch from a scum POV.)

But he did spend Day2 trying to get everyone else to give him a reason not to vote mala.

I don't see the same scum intent here you do. to be fair, Egg had a pretty developed scum read on Boon at this point in the game and this was in response to my 1094 which was primarily inconsistencies in what Boon was thinking as opposed to anything that needed both Boon and Mala to be scum in order to work.

it makes equally as much sense IMO that this is coming from town-Egg thinking Boon is scum trying to convince me to join him on Boon, rather than scum-Egg searching for reasons to not vote his partner. I'm not sure what in here you think is explicitly more likely to come from scum than town in this position.

that's not to say I think he's town for this post, just that it doesn't make him scum and that if I scum read him it'd be for other reasons

'Can we ignore the fact that jason is an uncountered protective claim and lynch him anyway?'

I think the push on jason actually looks town, for behavioral reasons explained in my recent posts.

I think if you want to look at the people who attemped to lynch jason today, SK is a way better candidate - for how he softly pushed jason without taking a firm stance on the matter, and then backed off as soon as it became obvious I wasn't letting jason get lynched that day and went to push the next easiest target (Egg) instead.

and you have to admit that despite thinking Egg is scum, there is a *lot* of suspicion on him right now - you, I to some extent was thinking Egg might be scum although I'm rapidly being convinced it's just SK, and most of the people off the wagon would likely vote there - so he would be a very easy target to push *if* he is town here.

the remaining points I think are OK, just at this point I think there's way more evidence for SK being scum.

[pieguyn]

Tammy's reply: she thinks that if a person catches scum because scum did X, then that person is less likely to do X as scum, for fear of getting caught himself/herself.

eeeehhhh

I don't really agree with this. it could just as easily be that she thinks scum are more likely to do X explicitly *because* it's something she'd be more likely to do as scum, as opposed to less. either way I don't really think reading into it much is a good idea

pie, I have a question for you: you've said that sthar's vote of Thor day 1 was unlikely to be a bus. Why don't you feel the same way about SK's vote of Mala day 2?

mostly the timing of it

when sthar voted Thor it was basically just me and STD who were suspecting Thor and that was all there was to it - no one else was interested in wagoning him. sthar's vote served to give the wagon the momentum it needed to actually become a viable lynch, at a point where it was (as STD said) dead in the water. if he didn't vote it, I probably couldn't have got it lynched

on the other hand, there was a lot of general suspicion directed towards Mala on D2, plus I was pushing her a lot harder than I pushed Thor. I likely would have been able to lynch her, or get her relatively close to being lynched, without his vote. it would make sense he would vote her sooner rather than later as scum in order to get the most town cred possible off it.

I do take the Mala vote as a minor point in his favor, but at this point POE points to him and I (and mastin) have stronger evidence for him being scum.

[pieguyn]

I'm with Pie on most of the Mala stuff, but this is actually a fair point from sthar. If mala didn't know a tracker couldn't catch her in a lie, she'd probably still claim her real target.

no, it isn't. and even if it was, it's correct that it's still a bad assumption to make

mastin points out that you are likely getting lynched today if SK doesn't happen. join me on SK?

Pie's list is going to crap. The skrew case is fine, but egg/myself are Towny mc town town. My teammates feel egg is scum, but pie is the one who convinced me that egg was town. Wtf.

???
I have both of you as town. if you meant my one post, that's me saying mastin wants both of you to sheep her.

[pieguyn]

Really? Has anyone ever encountered a game in which a RB-d power got their shot back? I thought they were about the same level of logical.

no, they're not

mastin told me to tell you to go [expletive] yourself over this, btw. there is a distinct difference, which she actually argued with N about, but got overruled on:

-if a RB prevents the action from happening, the player gets a refund bc the action never happened. she used this in Maniacal Street Mafia.
-if a RB makes an action fail, the player doesn't get a refund bc they did use it, it just failed

she got overruled on this for simplicity's sake, and wanted this explanation to be included on the wiki, but it got left out

either way, it doesn't change the fact that blocked players not visiting has been the long-standing principle since well before Mala even joined the site - and thus that it would be common knowledge - nor the fact that it's a really shit assumption for clearing someone

It's not that the thoughts are vague and the read isn't there, it's how formulaic it is. He had a ton of 'here's a reason i think they're scum, here's a reason I think they're town.' I could see that indecision coming up a little, but he had that on a bunch of different players. I think he was trying to play both sides of the field in case of future flips.

the obvious conclusion here is that it's more based on playstyle than anything alignment-indicative

I know for a fact that I do this all the time as town (see: that jason case I made near the start of this game which you scum read me for, as one example, but it happens a lot in my town games). some players consider it better to objectively take into account all the evidence, going both ways, when forming reads.

It fits with the hammer being a frustration move. He tried all the subtle ways to move the wagon, bringing in new suspects, trying for a flashwagon, waving about deadline paranoia. Then town still didn't move, and he's stuck having been a big detractor from a scumwagon that was either going to go through then, or be the obvious wagon the next day. If we no-lynched and hit thor the next day, everybody knows he was around at deadline and refused to hammer, coupled with trying to derail the wagon earlier.

except if it *did* go through the next day, the way he was arguing against it wouldn't have been scummy

he had already made it clear that he had no interest in lynching Thor on D1. not hammering Thor isn't inconsistent with this. there is nothing about that series of events that would have been more likely to come from scum than town - it either would have been town-Egg who in this case happened to be wrong (and hey, even *if* Egg is scum here, DW would have had basically the exact same stance as town? so this is testimony to what I'm saying here) or scum-Egg not hammering a partner. there's nothing scummy there.

and besides, it's not even a given that Thor would have been wagoned on D2 - it is likely he could have came back, posted up a storm, and got out of it, especially if they killed someone like STD or me N1 instead of Fenchurch

and additionally, the other problem with this is what I've been saying this whole time: no lynch for scum on D1 is fundamentally the same as a mislynch. if Egg was trying to get a mislynch in, he wouldn't have had any problem just letting the day run into a NL - and if Egg *did* get a mislynch in, everything you're saying about him would apply on D2 anyway.

attempting to derail the Thor lynch and not hammering him at deadline are one and the same. it's idiotic scum play to behave otherwise

My opinion is the opposite. Jason-lynch would be a huge victory for scum. If it were me I would never have let up on a PR mistake here. It's easy to justify and the value is huge compared to the risk.

OK

so

suppose Egg is scum here and is trying to force the jason lynch through. now look at what's going on in the game.

jason has a total of..... 0..... votes on him. oh wait, Egg isn't even voting jason. really good job forcing that mislynch through there, amirite?

and on top of that, basically everyone in the game is now reading jason-slot as town - so, how does scum-Egg intend on getting 5 votes out of basically nowhere to lynch jason, and to what extent is he trying to convince people over this?

also, even if what you're saying was correct, I happen to think that "attempting to force an important mislynch through, and then awkwardly backtracking on it when it becomes obvious it won't happen and that you'll be placed under scrutiny - from people like yourself - for continuing to push it" is more scummy than "attempting to force an important mislynch through and not letting up on it"

Sure. If egg were town being the key assumption here.

if you're going to consider that anyone else is scum, you can assume Egg is town for it, since there's only 1 scum left

[pieguyn]

some people think SK is town bc of Mala claiming to target him - which is objectively wrong and I do not want people operating under that assumption

unless you mean my post towards sthar, in which case it's just bc I don't think Egg is scum

[pieguyn]

From the end of day 1, when the lynch was obviously going to be Thor or me:

Well shit deadline's probably going to hit before I wake up and I'm still not right in the head. I think a TH lynch is the best viable option. Going to go pull up the stuff that set my teammates' scumdars off.

Universal hatred for 539.

Also Quil said the way Trojan went about his early interactions with me (about me not RVSing) reminded him of scum Trojan, and Reck was on board with that.

He said TH likes to strawman as scum, and that the way he was oversimplifying and misrepresenting the game seemed to fit the bill.

At the time, Oversoul told me he thought this looked like SK trying to protect his buddy. When SK switched to Thor, I threw out that theory. Maybe my teammate was right all along, and SK just changed his mind and bussed Thor.

#goodposting

[pieguyn]

I'm having a hard time reconciling 'survivalist game' with 'lurking through his own wagon.'

now that he's actually started doing shit, has your opinion here changed?

(also, I think lurking out a wagon through deadline and then posting up a storm *at* deadline is a pretty common scum play, and is something I've seen players like Nacho abuse in several games)

[pieguyn]

Also to say that my lurking has been part of a scum strategy is to implicitly say that I've been lying about being busy and not feeling well
fuck you

I don't think you're scum for lurking here. my scum read on you comes from other reasons.

just sthar thought you'd attempt to do more in response to the wagon on you if you were scum here, and I was pointing out why I think this is wrong (this was all working under the assumption you actually *were* capable of doing more here)

[pieguyn]

this doesn't really convince me. for a few reasons:

-your town read on Egg came after it became obvious I wasn't letting Egg get lynched today. before that, you were perfectly fine with lynching him. just like how you were soft pushing for jason until it became obvious he wasn't getting lynched, either. I don't really see you legitimately trying to reduce the lynch pool here - you're only eliminating people after it becomes obvious they won't get lynched

-furthermore, you appear to be scum reading Boon now. you've now called jason, Egg, and Boon scum in this day phase, as well as DW. where in here are you trying to reduce the lynch pool or otherwise not calling everyone scummy?

-while I admit pointing out how your reads changed is more about the overall narrative as opposed to specific reasoning, and thus that I really wouldn't expect a specific reply from it, you still took me arguing with sthar and did this whole "fuck you for scum reading me for lurking" in response to it. how the fuck is that not ATE? it actually reminded me a lot of what Mala did when I was pushing her - cherry pick one thing and start ATE'ing in response to it so that people read you as town

I also don't really think you're incapable of rereading the thread to get fake reads as scum (and I don't think this is strictly true, either; I remember it looked like you reread on at least one occasion in Quickness). so, meh.

[pieguyn]

on phone, more when I'm back at comp, but one thing first:

am I scum ATEing or am I TOWN THAT IS ACTUALLY MAD?
you're confbiasing so fucking hard here
Why on earth would someone get mad about being implicitly accused of lying about business and health, in more than just this thread too, so they could get away with lurking?
I'm mad at your other reasons for scumreading me because they're wrong. I'm furious about this one because IT'S OUT OF GAME BULLSHIT

you are fucking kidding me. let me make this clear: I DO NOT THINK YOU ARE SCUM FOR "ATE". YOU are the one saying you'd be ATE'ing here if you're scum and that you're town for it bc what you did here wasn't ATE. all I'm saying here is that, no, the way you played this does, in fact, make sense as scum ATE, and thus you saying you're town for it is incorrect

I wouldn't ever push someone as scum for not being engaged in the game when it's just their RL causing it instead.

[pieguyn]

Your progression baffles me.

Egg is still the best lynch.

vote SK with me, and I'm more than happy to vote Egg tomorrow *if* the game is still going

(I'm blatantly aware how lazy this is and I don't give a shit. I refuse to let Boon get lynched and I would be really fucking surprised if scum is outside {SK, Egg} anyway.)

[pieguyn]

I'm about to pass out any second now. there is a nonzero chance I won't be on again before deadline.

do not fucking lynch Boon. SK is the correct lynch. I continue to have no idea why people can think the way he's playing this comes from town. he voted jason after jason fucked up, then moved onto Egg (the next easiest target) after it became obvious jason wasn't getting lynched, and now he moved onto Boon (the next easiest target after Egg) when it became obvious Egg wasn't getting lynched either. it's textbook scum play - and even on top of that, there's evidence elsewhere pointing towards him being scum, plus general POE

don't get paranoid of sthar or DW. both are town.

[pieguyn]

Can you remind me why you're so sure Boon is town?

Mala interactions D2 + his recent play doesn't really make sense coming from scum (at least one of the reasons is 1700)

[pieguyn]

so there's 3 hours until deadline and no one's done anything.



here's hoping DW gets back before deadline hits?

[pieguyn]

I'm an idiot. I was rereading Mala/Boon interactions overnight and I think I was dead wrong about it not looking like scum/scum.

and I agree with massclaim

[pieguyn]

most suspicious -> most town?

I'm not sure how much it matters, but I'd guess that way would be better this late in the game.

[pieguyn]

I was gonna say vote on a list, but I don't really think it matters that much. I'm fine either way.

[pieguyn]

k

[pieguyn]

th already claimed VT

[pieguyn]

vt

[pieguyn]

goon
goon
rolecop

bodyguard
roleblocker
VTx8

this is scum sided as shit. WTF?

I was 99% sure there'd be a 3rd PR out there.

[pieguyn]

can someone remind me if this was finalized before or after the new Normal guidelines

cos I was thinking the only way this makes sense is if the last scum was a traitor instead of a goon, but looking at the page for traitor http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?tit ... Guidelines that can't even be correct bc it would have been endgamed by now

[pieguyn]

:/

this is really shit

bbl. when I get back I'll pull up what I have for Boon-scum.

[pieguyn]

As scum, there would be no reason for me to not claim a PR in my position during the mass claim.

:/

I had a paranoid theory about what your scum strategy here would likely be, and I thought you would potentially say something like this if you were following that strategy. I wasn't expecting it to actually happen, though.

[pieguyn]

VOTE: DW.

I don't like the whole let's flashwagon Boon. He tried to derail both the TH and the Thor lynch, granted he was in the same boat as me for not wanting to lynch Thor, but there was no reason for him to try derail the TH lynch either like he did. The only reason why he would derail the TH was because he had a higher scumread on Boon. Boon went V/LA, didn't claim. Why was there a sudden push for wanting Boon lynched like ~hours~ before the deadline.

I didn't like it. I'm mainly scumreading Egg for sorta the same reasons.

I'll flesh out my reasons for my townreads later, but they are pretty strong IMO.

so this post has been sitting in the back of my mind all game because it was pretty obviously fabricated and the focus, in particular, struck me as odd - what she was commenting on here really was out of place. the first thing I want to address is that I really do not think Mala thought she would get lynched at this point in time. at this point, the wagon on her looked like this:

Malakittens (3)- Save The Dragons, pieguyn, SleepyKrew

even if she did think she could get out of being lynched here- I think she had planned on pushing DW/Egg in advance. and I really don't think she would have expected STD/me to just push her out the gate like this. ergo, I still don't think she would have thought to distance from her partner in this situation. I think she was just playing straightforwardly, as in, trying to get a mislynch on DW.

but with that out of the way, as I said, the reasoning here really just didn't make any sense. so I couldn't help but think, "why"? why would scum-Mala feel the need to go out of her way to bullshit a push on DW here?

then I looked back through DW's ISO.

Spoiler:

Alright I finally got a chance to sit down and actually read this game. Thoughts:

1. Post 22 - I agree with Malakitten's assessment of Micc's Post 19. He's now on my watch list.

2. Post 33 - TJ criticizing SK for not RVSing sounds like pointless bickering to me that's probably not indicative of alignment. Same goes for the whole TJ vs. SK bullshit on Page 2. I feel like I lost a few minutes of my life that I will never get back.

3. Post 49 - Jason laying a townread on Trojan is inexplicable. Not sure what to make of this.

4. Post 50 - I like this post by Malakittens. Upgrading them to probtown.

5. Post 53 - No, STD, it's not weird that two people voted SK. That's what RVS is about. I've got my eye on you.

6. Post 54 - I'm not sure what Thor is trying to do in this post. Neutral for now but I'm enjoying the grilling of STD.

7. Post 57 - STD acting like the SK wagon was this supersrs non-RVS wagon is weirdly defensive. FOS on him. Lol post 58 just ramps the defensiveness up to 11.

8. Post 61 - STD I swear to god. I'm starting to get bored so this better get good soon.

9. Boonskiies in general feels a lot like how I play scum. Very hyperactive.

10. Post 86 - Micc sounds like frustrated town. Here, have a townread.

Fenchurch puzzles me with this whole "stubbornness = town" thing in Post 92. Doesn't affect my read either way but it's just wrong.

11. Post 118 - Once again Malakitten's logic is jiving with my own. Really thinking they're town. Pieguyn's posts on this page aren't earning him townpoints.

12. Post 135 - Quote from STD: "I'm bothered by malakittens's language; there's a giddy confidence in there (like Light from Death Note, or I guess early books Queen Cersei)" Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ. Something tells me I'm going to be voting you by the time I finish this.

13. Post 142 - Sthar8 seems reasonable. Nothing much more to say about that.

Fenchurch is sort of just existing. Boonskiie's Post 147 makes me want to weep. Egg is still null. Egg v. Sthar smells like town-on-town violence to me. Jason's work on this page isn't so bad actually, I like the criticism of pie. Boon's vote on Jason in Post 176 just stinks. Something bothers me about TJ's vote on Boon in 200. STD is unbearable on Page 9. Fenchurch and Egg seems largely uncontroversial to me. I hate these arguments about meta and self-meta.

Reads:

Scumpool - Boon, STD, Pie
Neutral leaning scum - TJ
Neutral - Jason
Neutral leaning town - Egg, Fenchurch, Thor, Micc, Stahar8
Townpool - Malakittens

VOTE: Boonskiies

I would just as easily vote STD right now.

UNVOTE: std
VOTE: boon

Why is this not happening egg?

Delta, can you link to a previous example of you refusing to lynch a D1 PR claim (or a discussion in which you state that you would refuse to lynch a D1 PR claim)?

Apparently the last game I played was Event Card Mafia in April 2014, but I got replaced out due to inactivity. Before that, my last game was Jason's British Royal Family Kingmaker in Feb of 2013. So, in the past two years I've played two games not counting my current games. I really don't remember if I have any examples of that.

Thor's lynch was ultimately good but I still stand by my principle that I won't lynch a D1 PR claim (unless it is directly counterclaimed.)

Overnight I read the thread and I get the strong impression that Jason is town. I also think I was too hard on STD. He has been downgraded from Scum to Null. SK seems increasingly town. I previously said Pie is scummy but after reviewing the thread he's probably more on the null side.

Boon is way too meta-aware for my liking. I still consider him a scumspect.

I'm going to get around to some VCA at some point.

SK seems increasingly town.

Explain please.
VCA on D2 sounds like a waste of time.

Mostly your criticism of Egg and support of a Boon lynch. This all seems town motivated to me. Mostly because I'm on the same wavelength.

I really do think that strange things were afoot in those vote counts. I'll have to figure it out though.

I can't help but think that this was a calculated play to eliminate a threat to the rest of her scum team. I think that she went out of her way to push DW for the express purpose of taking out someone who was scum reading her partner. (you will notice she did the same thing to sthar in 628 - which doesn't mean anything by itself, but it is something that really makes me think this is not too unreasonable here)

and the same thing with Egg. you'll remember Egg had a scum read on Boon for the majority of D1/D2 up to this point

Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

I can finally flesh out my townread more on Boons because the game I was carefully watching just ended.

So the reason why I was against the push in Jason's D1 play and why my townread on Boons strengthened was due to this game. If you read his ISO he was attacked early D1 because of his play. Lurking, not contributing much etc and then later on used for mislynch bait. His reactions that game reminded me of how he reacted here.

so overnight I actually looked at this game and the thing is, Mala's comparison here really is quite shit. for one, I think what she's pointing out here is more of a null tell as opposed to a scum tell - it is not difficult to fake town-looking reactions to pressure as scum. but the thing is, if you look at Boon's ISO in that game, the way he played there was quite different to here. if you want to check this, look through his ISO there and check how he comes out the gate swinging immediately whenever he gets pressured - compare to here where, while there are some posts that, if I squint, could fit this, he took a lot of pressure *without* reacting like he did in that game. the only post that really fits with what he did in this game was 903, which by itself is completely fakeable.

Yeah, mala and I have like dead similar reads. Scum is most definitely going at her wagon. Time to rethink it. Also, Sthar's read's are very similar, I believe.

Delta, can you link to a previous example of you refusing to lynch a D1 PR claim (or a discussion in which you state that you would refuse to lynch a D1 PR claim)?

Apparently the last game I played was Event Card Mafia in April 2014, but I got replaced out due to inactivity. Before that, my last game was Jason's British Royal Family Kingmaker in Feb of 2013. So, in the past two years I've played two games not counting my current games. I really don't remember if I have any examples of that.

Thor's lynch was ultimately good but I still stand by my principle that I won't lynch a D1 PR claim (unless it is directly counterclaimed.)

Overnight I read the thread and I get the strong impression that Jason is town. I also think I was too hard on STD. He has been downgraded from Scum to Null. SK seems increasingly town. I previously said Pie is scummy but after reviewing the thread he's probably more on the null side.

Boon is way too meta-aware for my liking. I still consider him a scumspect.

I'm going to get around to some VCA at some point.

This post is too wishy washy for me. Who exactly are you scum reading? He's setting himself up so he can vote in any direction without getting scrutinized for it. Congratulations, Egg, you are now only the 2nd scummiest person here.

VOTE: Delta

I still can't get over these 2 posts. I said this before, but the first post feels more like a cheap throwaway statement to misdirect off Mala than him actually believing this - for further proof, you'll notice his scum reads (Egg and DW) weren't even on the Mala wagon here.

the timing of the DW push, in particular, matches Mala's almost exactly. I don't know if this, by itself, means anything bc I think he was scum reading DW for a bit before this, but really, meh.

and the thing is, the assessment that he usually buses his partners as scum is correct. but I actually think he might have done this for the express purpose of playing to the exact *opposite* of his scum meta - rather than bussing his partners, he goes out of his way to defend them and/or vote along with them. this would explain why he suddenly shifted these 2 reads out of nowhere.

@Pie - Unless you can link more than one game where that proves to be true for ScumMala, then our read is perfectly justifiable and you are just bs and confbiasing. Don't care if it's activity reasons, that's how a lot of people town read me, based off of my activity.

I haven't got over this, either. he is literally saying here that I can't push Mala as scum unless I have a previous game where Mala did the same thing as scum, which makes no sense. it is another post that makes me think he was deliberately inventing reasons to defend Mala here. he had a lot of other posts where he pushed stuff similar to this; this is just one example

As scum, there would be no reason for me to not claim a PR in my position during the mass claim.

this post. I alluded to this when he made it, but this is another thing that makes me think he's deliberately playing to the exact opposite of his scum meta. for one reason:

Boon has a habit of fake claiming PRs when he's scum.

and the thing is, I wouldn't give a shit, but the way he's deliberately going out of his way to play up the idea that he fake claims PRs when he's scum is the kind of thing I would expect from scum playing this kind of strategy. he's bringing this up bc he deliberately played the exact opposite of the way he usually plays and wants people to town read him for it.

I'll take this opportunity to point out that all the self-meta from D2 I do think is actually null as opposed to scum motivated. his posts there struck me as posts that are within the realm of possibility for town-him to make - if you usually bus when scum, you would point this out even if you are town. this specific post, on the other hand, really just feels out of place and gives me the impression that he did it on purpose.

[pieguyn]

My current reads list amounts to this:

pie - town
Dragons - prob town
Egg - maybe town
Jason - free pass for now

Trojan - mixed, not sure
Sleepy - no idea
Thor - no idea
Boon - no idea
Delta - null
sthar - null
Micc - null
.
.
.
I'd be pretty happy lynching Boon, who I don't have any town read on and think I may never get a reliable read on.

I was also wondering why Fen died on N1 bc I really do not know if Mala thought she could outargue her as opposed to someone like myself (this sounds egotistical as hell, but this is more a paranoid thought as opposed to an actual reason I have for Boon being scum). this would make it make more sense *if* Boon is scum here.

[pieguyn]

Granted, I was hard pushing for people not to lynch you because I thought you were obv town. A lot like how I was with Bins this game...interesting.

the other paranoid thought is that I think no-killing on purpose to line up a mislynch is exactly the kind of thing Boon would do as scum - and that if that is what he actually did here, it would make sense to WK it and then say something like this to call attention to it

he's demonstrated in several other games he has a tendency to no-kill on purpose as scum. I'm not sure if anyone else in this playerlist would have done this.

[pieguyn]

maybe. I just can't help but feel like she was specifically trying to misdirect away from Boon with that post given her reasoning.

either way, not much point in arguing over it

[pieguyn]

I'm trying to figure out why scum would leave STD alive if they had correctly figured out he was the RB on D2. given jason was a bogyguard and thus would (or rather, *should*) protect STD, I really do not think it would be worth it to no kill in that situation as opposed to shooting STD immediately - in other scenarios, it'd be worth it, but not when it'd get protected, I don't think. I'm not sure about this, though.

[pieguyn]

o, mastin wanted me to inform everyone that if she was in this position, she'd be hipgunning for TH with no logical reason behind it. she also wanted to make it explicitly clear this was entirely gut and should probably be ignored

in case it's not obvious, I disagree with this

[pieguyn]

sthar, I can trust you, right? >.>

[pieguyn]

sthar wasn't there the entire day phase, and DW only had 2 posts right at the start and then disappeared the rest of the day phase

so we can't clear anyone based on how the wagon happened

[pieguyn]

which jason wagon is this? I can go back and compile per-page VCs for it if you want. although if it's the one from D4, now that I look at it, it never got past one vote (Egg).

[pieguyn]

problem is, I don't remotely think it's a necessity that scum would push jason

if I was scum, I'd likely WK the shit out of it (admittedly in a similar way to what I did here) in no small part bc anyone who knows anything about setup spec would be able to confirm him as town anyway

[pieguyn]

honestly none of my attempts at rereading anything give me cause to question the current gamestate

I still think DW is town bc I really don't think Mala was thinking to distance from him in that situation

I still think sthar and TH are town - I still can't reconcile what the hell sthar was trying to do D2 if he was scum here. he would have had basically the entire day where he could have BS'ed a push on DW in order to save Mala, given he appeared to think DW was scum at the start of the day, but he chose not to for.... ??? plus Thor on D1

and Boon's recent play also supports it in that it looks like he's setting up to push TH tomorrow if Egg gets lynched today

it will fucking suck if I'm just missing something huge here and I've gone horribly wrong somewhere.

[pieguyn]

actually you know what, I think Mala pushing DW is even more of a town tell for DW than it'd usually be otherwise because she knows there's a town roleblocker in the game. and by extension she'd know that having only 1 surviving scum is complete suicide

so the only way this is a lose is if I'm somehow horribly unbelievably wrong about sthar here

[pieguyn]

and now that I think about it that also works for sthar bc he would have known the same thing

so

[pieguyn]

Please, my team used tokens to get me a town slot; I'm far too easy of a potential random lynch to risk being scum here, especially with Pieguyn here who's seen my scum game for the umpteenth time recently.

you didn't think to mention this earlier? I would expect you should have mentioned something like this before.

you're actually a lot more subdued than I would expect from you as town in general, really

[pieguyn]

and correct me if I'm wrong but I thought I remember you prefer scum over town

:/

[pieguyn]

the one paranoid thought I have here that I want to get out, just in case, is that if you squint a lot DW's actions make some sense for scum

OTOH, you have the STD push D1, him voting TH instead of Thor at the end of D1 (although as I said his explanation was fine), and him attempting to push jason on D4. I'm still kind of weirded out by the STD push, to be honest. mostly I just don't get why he came out full force and then... completely phased out and didn't push anyone else in that manner the rest of the game.

but this is just more a paranoid thought than anything. I don't really think his play looks scummy.

[pieguyn]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=60922 - Mala scum with goodmorning - had a weak town read on her most of the game. asked her exactly one softball question near the middle of the game in order to distance with no actual push.

I'm trying to see if Mala is adverse to bussing as scum and that's the only recent scum game I've found so far. -.- just based on this, though, I doubt she would bus on D2 with several other lynch options available and a known town RB in the game.

[pieguyn]

When have I ever been scum and not pushed for a lynch on you, Pie? Even when we were scum buddies I tried to push for a lynch on you. Even when you were the towniest person in the game, I pushed for a lynch on you.

yes, but as I said, I think you're attempting to deliberately play to the opposite of your scum meta here

I also don't really think in either case you *had* to push me as scum. the game where we were both scum, it only wound up happening bc we were strategically bussing each other so that one of us could get to endgame, and I think you probably could have done something else besides pushing me in the other game.

If Boonskiies was scum, that would mean the entire Malakittens wagon was town-driven and nobody was bussing her. I'm not saying it's impossible but I would expect a busser at that stage of the game. This does sort of call TH into question.

what do you make of the point that scum knew there was a town RB in the game after N1? you think they'd bus anyway and leave only one scum left when one scum vs. a town RB is essentially autoloss for them?

or am I just going wrong here

[pieguyn]

to be fair, I do remember Boon mentioning he spent tokens on town sometime a while back

but even if he was telling the truth about it, it doesn't make him town. so.

[pieguyn]

eh

I really really think that everyone else has compelling reason to be town outside {Boon, Egg} (and I think Boon is more likely scum out of those two). I'm primarily searching for evidence that gives me strong cause to question my town reads outside of those 2 players and I really haven't seen it yet.

[pieguyn]

how is that a slip

[pieguyn]

agreed. (also, what you pointed out about him no-killing is part of why I thought he'd be likely to be the one who no-killed in this scenario here)

[pieguyn]

ehhhh

vote: Boon

I'm not ready for day to end yet, but this is where I will likely want to vote; I'd still like to hear potential arguments for scum outside egg/Boon to make sure I'm not just missing smth here.

[pieguyn]

-Pie. Can you make two bullet points why everyone is town? (I'm guessing he means your town reads)

TH:
1. don't really think how D1 played out makes sense with both Thor and TH as scum. Mala's movements in particular are an example of this, especially given the way she did it which felt like she was self-conscious of being on a town counterwagon.
2. in general, I don't really think he's done anything scummy. he's been relatively proactive all game. plus ppl had agreed sometime on D1 that he was obvious scum in the last team mafia game whereas he wasn't here, so this is a good sign - his play here, on a body of work level, doesn't fit with what I'd expect from someone who can't play scum well

sthar:
1. interactions with Thor D1 - I doubt it really makes sense for him to bus the way that he did there
2. interactions with Mala D2 - over the course of D2 he spent a lot of time getting pissed off at me, and I'm fairly sure that he would have realized this would not have have derailed the Mala lynch or helped his cause as scum. he also had a scum read on DW at D2 start, which in my opinion makes it more compelling; he would have been fully able to join the counterwagon and/or BS a push on DW if he wanted to. this is more so the case when scum would have known there was a town RB in the game
3. there's also the point that sthar likely would have killed STD on N2 given he had known STD was the roleblocker, but this isn't particularly strong. actually now that I type this I realize that I might be able to show he's telling the truth about having figured out STD was the roleblocker given his actions around that point, namely the "IM NOT CLAIMING IF IM A TOWN RB FUCK YOU" (which would be explained by him having already figured it out), but I need to check the timing on this

DW:
1. interactions with Mala D2 - in my opinion, Mala's push on him felt fabricated in a way that makes me think it was just her pushing a mislynch. it didn't really strike me as soft distancing either; I think she was trying to get him lynched. this again is more so the case when scum would have known there was a town RB in the game
2. the attitude surrounding the Thor lynch came off as town to me; it was essentially "fuck you all for lynching a PR" which is a standard reaction as opposed to Mala's "tee hee, I'm sorry but I'm not lynching a PR, don't look at me plz". it's also consistent with his team thinking Thor could have been fake claiming like 1-shot cop or something else that benefits from fake claiming hider. this isn't as strong as other points, though

in general I'm most worried about being blindsided by DW

[pieguyn]

also I still don't find you claiming "I WOULD HAVE DONE THIS AS SCUM" convincing

as I said, I think you're explicitly playing to the exact opposite of your scum meta here

[pieguyn]

I don't really care; if you get lynched and you're town Egg is getting lynched tomorrow anyway.

I'm more concerned with making sure I'm not just completely fucking up one of my townreads atm.

[pieguyn]

meh

I want a Boon lynch over an Egg lynch at this point (and I'm fully expecting him to come in here and make a bunch of posts in response to this, but w/e). *if* he's town, I'll likely be dead and Egg should be the lynch tomorrow. TH is fucking town; do not lynch him under any circumstances. I get there's at least one person who's paranoid of him, but he's town here. I'd likely outright quit the game if he was scum.

I still don't know why Mala would push DW like she did here if she was scum. I'd still like to know if people have a potential explanation for this or if no one is saying anything just bc they don't have an explanation/agree with what I'm saying.

[pieguyn]

for the record, my opinion on Boon's latest posts aligns with Egg's. it feels more like he's trying to stroke sthar/TH's ego as opposed to presenting any new/original points. and I agree it felt like the Burning in that he was just throwing whatever he could out there without believing it.

so

just ugh. I don't want to fuck up and lose this.

[pieguyn]

putting this here for my own reference: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?t=21919&f=54

[pieguyn]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?t=59777&f=52 - 76 posts/72 pages nov 2014
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?t=59638&f=53 - 95 posts/60 pages oct 2014
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?t=60469&f=54 - 75 posts/41 pages jan 2015

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?t=60313&f=50 - 137 posts/34 pages jan 2015
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?t=60486&f=54 - 92 posts/45 pages jan 2015
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=59293 - 83 posts/103 pages sep 2014
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?t=59772&f=54 - 228 posts/164 pages nov 2014

here - 183 posts/90 pages

[pieguyn]

I can not find any game where Egg has been exceedingly active as scum. but idk if this means anything.

this is fucking killing me. I wish to jump into a volcano :<

[pieguyn]

yo Egg, just so I know when do you think Cheet will be able to give his thoughts on 2195? we only have ~2 days left.

[pieguyn]

tell greyice his reads blow

[pieguyn]

just over 1 day left

2 more votes on Boon plz

if we lynch Egg today, everyone needs to promise to lynch Boon tomorrow as opposed to going batshit insane and lynching someone like TH. it's just about 100% that TH is town here; it really is that simple. the only possibility for a loss is if DW is scum, but I don't even want to think about the possibility Mala would go insane and bus him on D2 for literally 0 reason at this point

[pieguyn]

So, I'm reexamining everything today looking for how scum win from here. The big focus is on the things I don't understand, those being Fen's death and the missed kill.

Fen almost certainly died bc Mala was scared of her. if you look at the dynamic between those 2, it looked like they knew each other somewhat well. as I alluded to earlier, part of me is paranoid there is more to it than that, but I could easily see Mala wanting to kill Fen regardless of who her partner is

the missed kill I'm still not sure about, but I don't know if it's a good idea to read into it. I first thought it just happened because someone thought it fit to no-kill on N2 in order to line up a mislynch, and that they just didn't put any more thought into it than that (which is a part of why I thought it pointed to Boon earlier), but if it was done to out the RB, it'd make sense for just about anyone except possibly you to have done it.

actually now that I write this I really don't think no-killing to out the RB would be worth it either given it'd likely wind up claiming (or at the very least crumbing, but scum would likely be able to see this) D3 anyway; it'd make more sense to get another kill in to cut down on the number of cleared/obv-town players. which makes me start thinking again that whoever made the no kill just did it to line up a mislynch. but I don't know if I'm just reading too much into it

[pieguyn]

UNVOTE: Egg
VOTE: DeltaWave

no don't do this please. Boon or Egg.

[pieguyn]

I just want to make sure everyone is aware that the entire point of handling this game this way is that we can be 99% sure everyone besides {Boon, Egg} is town and not have to second guess it. k thx

[pieguyn]

Do you see what he's doing here? He's subtlely denigrating both of the current bandwagons, so that regardless of whether we lynch Boon or Egg (a town flip either way), Delta looks more town for not pushing that lynch. Then Delta is all set for the endgame, because he has two suspects lined up: either Boon or Egg (whoever we don't lynch now), and me. Easy win for him.

DW would have had Boon/Egg as the two mislynches already. he doesn't need to go out of his way to line you up for _another_ lynch. I think pushing vanity wagons at this point is _extremely_ antitown as this is the part of the game when you need to work on POE'ing it and trusting each other in order to win, but it's not scummy, either.

I have no intention to no lynch. As for what happened day 2: I agree that after Thor's lynch, Mala didn't want to bus. But if Delta is scum, the bus makes sense. Mala and Delta were garnering almost all the votes at that point. What could they do? Having one scum (Mala) bus, and having the other scum (Delta) not bus, seems to be the right move.

Mala and DW were literally the only wagons. how would have making one scum bus and the other not bus allowed them to get out of it? why wouldn't they, for instance, attempt to push a counterwagon on someone like Egg in order to save both of them?

and I still don't understand why Mala tries to lynch DW (the 2nd-to-last scum) when there's a confirmed RB+bodyguard in the game. attempting to face that solo is still suicide for scum

Couple that with Egg's apparent not caring about his impending lynch (though admittedly, that could just be scum trying to bluff his way out of it)

honestly, this is the only reason I'd consider voting DW. people seem to be saying that Egg looks town for his recent posts. I'm not quite as sure although I do think his latest posts look kinda town, but I have paranoid thoughts every now and then.

this just makes me come back to thinking it's just Boon and we're sitting here WIFOM'ing ourselves over nothing

[pieguyn]

But Delta DID try to push another wagon. He tried to lynch Boon. What did you think Mala was going to do? Also push Boon? Then Mala and Delta are tied together. Push someone else? Then everyone is going to wonder why neither Mala nor Delta is trying to push the other. If Delta is scum, Mala was kind of stuck there.

yes, that is kind of the point

if both of the scum are being wagoned, of course they need to do more than they usually would in order to get out of it. it would draw attention to them, yes, but it's still better than the alternative (going into N2 with only one scum left).

it's somewhat high risk, but necessary

also, to be honest, I really don't think it would have been *that* obvious this is what they were doing. you'd be surprised at the kind of crap you can get away with as scum- even *if* one of {Mala, DW} flipped, people might not make the connection and instead think DW is just a counterwagon to Mala. and if neither did, people might not figure it out at all.

[pieguyn]

I don't think you're crazy. like, I think Egg looks town, and I can at least see what you're saying here - and although I don't think it's indicative of anything, I do wish DW *would* have done more up to this point so that we could have more to judge him off of. but like

it doesn't make any sense for Mala to have bussed DW in the way that she did if both of them were scum

[pieguyn]

and then, in any gamestate where jason doesn't derp and make an obviously incorrect play, you lose the game

so we're at an impasse

[pieguyn]

uh... lol

even if the rest of the rest of that post made any sense, I don't believe GIF says that line in particular to me. if he wanted to appeal to me, he would not have chosen that specific line or gone about it in that way

I think you just made it up.

[pieguyn]

@TH: this was the second vote on DW, and the reads list was before Boon even voted him. so I dont think it was a necessary evil like you claim it was - if she bussed here, she did it completely unnecessarily. and I'm fully expecting Boon to write a bunch of spam posts claiming I'm tunneling or whatever, but I'm not: I've spent most of this game day looking back and rereading, and I just have not seen anything to make me second guess my reads (hint, this is why I've been asking ppl to cross check my reads).

Also my reads currently are:

Town:
Jason, Star, pie, std, boons

Leaning town:

TH

Null:

SK, Vyse (want to hear more from)

Scum:

Delta, egg

I'm going to withhold voting Til im home and caught up with the current posts at the start of D2.

VOTE: DW.

I don't like the whole let's flashwagon Boon. He tried to derail both the TH and the Thor lynch, granted he was in the same boat as me for not wanting to lynch Thor, but there was no reason for him to try derail the TH lynch either like he did. The only reason why he would derail the TH was because he had a higher scumread on Boon. Boon went V/LA, didn't claim. Why was there a sudden push for wanting Boon lynched like ~hours~ before the deadline.

I didn't like it. I'm mainly scumreading Egg for sorta the same reasons.


I'll flesh out my reasons for my townreads later, but they are pretty strong IMO.

[pieguyn]

Cheet wanting Boon hard lynched also makes me feel pretty good it ends the game.