Open 633: Near Vanilla-GAME OVER

[Imperium]

@Imperium are you town reading Ranger atm? Can you answer that in as much detail as possible please.

No.

[Imperium]

And I don't understand what you need explained in detail at this point; I'm not making a scum case on her because she's getting lynched, and I never said that she was town (in my post backing off her, I said that I wasn't confident that she was town, but we should heavily consider the possibility). If you think something about my process was unnatural, I would rather you point out what struck you as weird instead of asking me to repeat the entire process.

[Ranger]

which is probably a small part of the explanation for why we aren't dead

Also helping is that MagnaofIllusion says he jailkept you every night, a detail Titus specifically asked for, yet has apparently conveniently forgotten in her accusation against you.

[Imperium]

which is probably a small part of the explanation for why we aren't dead

Also helping is that MagnaofIllusion says he jailkept you every night, a detail Titus specifically asked for, yet has apparently conveniently forgotten in her accusation against you.

She didn't forget it; the fact that there has not been a no kill night means we haven't been shot at, which is what she finds weird.

[Titus]

which is probably a small part of the explanation for why we aren't dead

Also helping is that MagnaofIllusion says he jailkept you every night, a detail Titus specifically asked for, yet has apparently conveniently forgotten in her accusation against you.

She didn't forget it; the fact that there has not been a no kill night means we haven't been shot at, which is what she finds weird.

This. Or that scum Imperium's team never sent her for the kill.

That brings me back to if Imperium is scum, the team needs a second face type role. That would lead to Ranger scum.

The weird kills suggest Ranger scum.

[Ollie]

This is probably confirmation bias from my end

You don't believe what you're saying there then?

I used previous games to explain my thought process to be town read which I was successful in doing. The more insight the better IMO, especially as I hadn't properly played with anyone before so I was not known. Always what I do on day 1 is get town read so I can get on with scum hunting. The way this game has differed for my usual games is that there was plenty of time on day 1 for to have a bit of self analysis of why I was doing what I was doing. & no the 2nd reads list was so I could put what what I'd learned from analyzing what I'd been doing to use for a new reads list with more to go on than before. & the game was significant to keep mentioning because I never played on here for like a year afterwards cos I was so disenfranchised after playing it. I came to realize the affect it was having on my ability to scum hunt.

I dislike how he doesn't so much as make an attempt to sort out CoM's alignment; he says that they're confusing but doesn't so much as comment on any of the reasons that people are scumreading them, nor actually looks into any of their posts. I also don't understand where the "I think that CoM is VT and annoying and we get a lot of info but those are bullshit reasons so I won't vote there" thing comes from; those weren't reasons that anyone else were talking so why did he bring them up?

His piece on Snarky is garbage; I don't like that the "I was okay with Snarky because he was townreading me! Oops!" bit came up again, and the case Ollie posts on him is no more complicated than "I think Snarky could have posted more content".

He justifies the weakness of this post by talking about how he couldn't get anything done because of the CoM wagon but that's just not true; the only thing that he tried to get going was a Nosferatu wagon, but it's not like he actually pushed for one; the only interactions he had with her after her vote were questions and then saying that she looked townier. He also talks about how his top scum reads (which were Nosferatu, Lowell, Bella) weren't very involved in the wagons, but that's also inaccurate; Lowell and Bella were both voting Snarky, and the only reaction Ollie has to that is a throwaway mention of it at the very end of the case whereas if Ollie was town I would expect two of his scumreads voting a major wagon that he's not that sure about in the first place to be more of a sticking point.

Just because I never mentioned specific posts doesn't mean I didn't attempt to work out CoM's alignment. I ISO'ed both them & Snarky. & I found CoM confusing & had my previous Hydra in the back of my mind which made that ok to me. Plus how stuck people were on them. Who cares if no one mentioned the thought process I went through? Do you have a point there?

Why would my case on Snarky be strong? I was deciding between two players I wouldn't have chosen to lynch. I made that clear. He was the lesser evil. I didn't have a big interest in lynching any of the main 3 wagons. & at that stage I was questioning my other reads after Nos who I'd put alot of energy into had finally opened up, & only Lowell was still a scum read, stronger after CoM's flip.

[Imperium]

I take it you mean she thought I was pushing her in those first two questions... No I think coming up with only 2 possible scenarios where I'm scum in both is scummy, I mean just for questioning her. I will pressure who I want & I don't expect to be scum read just for doing that. Yet she fired back to my questioning with those two scenarios & then said I was obvious scum. & then what a major reach saying the person I want to lynch has coached me on her. She looks like she's throwing loads of shit to see what sticks to discredit me & try & prevent me from taking a good look at her. Our interactions never progressed beyond that post if you notice. All indirect statements about me but no further interaction from her side. She just shut it down & she's now retreated from the game.

The two scenarios thing didn't happen just because you were questioning her, that's a misrep.
You said she was sucking up and that it didn't make sense based on what you knew of her town game (which implies an attack). 2018
She said that you had a weird definition of sucking up. 2020
You pointed out how you thought she was sucking up and then asked her about her history with Tammy (which is still implying an attack). 2025.
She tells you to read Cyberpunk 2026, explains why 2031.
You continue to talk about why you think Titus is sucking up to Tammy in 2038.
Titus says that you are being dumb and scumreads you in 2041.

You imply that what happened is that you questioned Titus and then she had an inexplicable scumread on you but what really happened is you pushed the sucking up point, she thought your point was weird, you kept pushing, she disliked your attack and started scumreading you which sounds... completely reasonable? Why do you have issue with the exchange up to this point?

I also don't understand where your indirect thing is coming from; the only post that Titus didn't direct at you was 2075, which was a response to Magna asking her for her top three suspects, and the "loads of shit" is similarly baseless when she hasn't pushed you anymore than you pushed her.

[Imperium]

Why weren't you engaged in the game?

Because I wasn't posting?
I go through periods of time when I'm tired after work and tend to do things that don't take as much thinking and focus as mafia does, and I post less during those times. When I fall behind in games, I have a harder time catching up since usually my window of time to post in a particular game isn't overly large. What are you expecting to gain from this question?

Voting for somebody just cos 2 other people are scum reading them is weak justification.

Sure, it would be if that was the only reason she was voting Ranger. That's not the only reason she was voting Ranger, as that post that you quoted said.

You've came at me sneakily with no conviction. Don't just boil it down to voting for me briefly then moving your vote off. You also said you thought I was scum in later interaction with I think it was Nos? which is when I wanted clarification on it as then it pinged me as the same kind of thing I've experienced from scum before (I gave a couple of examples of when). Then when you ignored it you made my scum pile. You see the process there? The day, timing or how overt the attack is has no relevance. I'm showing why it's a scum tell I will ride with.

As I've been saying repeatedly and loudly, no I didn't have any conviction when I voted you; that's why I removed my vote immediately afterwards. Did I think that you were scum? Sure I did! Did I have conviction in it (or a case)? No. I didn't. Because I hadn't posted in the game in a while, I hadn't read in depth for a while. The examples you gave were scum throwing everything and the kitchen sink at you starting from Day 1 while this is a vote that came at the very end of the day when you very clearly were not getting lynched and did not last for more than a couple of hours. I didn't respond to you immediately probably because I didn't see your post; if I did, I didn't respond to it because, again, I was behind as shit and responding to you why I felt inclined to put down a vote on you that didn't last very long didn't interest me nor did I regard it as important. The two situations are completely different, and yet you keep referring back to them as if it should explain why you're completely ignoring context in your attack on me; can you see why this is ridiculous to me?

You are attacking me for not having conviction in my attack on you. I say hey, I didn't have conviction because I didn't read the thread in a long time and wasn't really engaged in the game. You are attacking me for not having questioned you and followed up on my read. I say hey, I didn't follow up with my read because I wasn't that attached to it in the first place thanks to the not being engaged thing. You are attacking me for ignoring you when you questioned me on my reasons for voting you. I point out, again, that I wasn't engaged in the game so of course I'm not going to be on top of everything directed at me (remember how long it took me to answer Magna's question about me townreading RC)?

The day, the timing, the

nature

of the attack on you is context, and ignoring because you don't think it has relevance is something that I don't understand at all because context is what guides everyone's play in this game, and it's something I especially don't understand when you ask questions like "What is your history with Tammy?" and "Why weren't you engaged?" which are literally nonsense questions if you aren't trying to glean context from them.

[Imperium]

That brings me back to if Imperium is scum, the team needs a second face type role.

Why?

[Ollie]

And I don't understand what you need explained in detail at this point; I'm not making a scum case on her because she's getting lynched, and I never said that she was town (in my post backing off her, I said that I wasn't confident that she was town, but we should heavily consider the possibility). If you think something about my process was unnatural, I would rather you point out what struck you as weird instead of asking me to repeat the entire process.

I'd rather you pointed out what you didn't understand instead of asking me to repeat the process as well but yet you seemed ok with asking me to do it so why shouldn't you? Bit of an odd reaction to a simple request & laced in hypocrisy I might add.

You didn't correct me when I implied you were town reading Ranger so I was operating on the theory that if you were town reading her & she were to flip scum that wouldn't be in line what I think Rach has done (bus), giving you town credit. But now you appear to be sitting on the fence which I don't like at all. Thanks for clearing that up. Wasn't so hard was it?

[Imperium]

I'd rather you pointed out what you didn't understand instead of asking me to repeat the process as well but yet you seemed ok with asking me to do it so why shouldn't you? Bit of an odd reaction to a simple request & laced in hypocrisy I might add.

You asked me what I didn't understand and what did I do? I pointed out why I didn't understand. I'm asking you to do the same.

[Imperium]

You didn't correct me when I implied you were town reading Ranger so I was operating on the theory that if you were town reading her & she were to flip scum that wouldn't be in line what I think Rach has done (bus), giving you town credit. But now you appear to be sitting on the fence which I don't like at all. Thanks for clearing that up. Wasn't so hard was it?

I think that Ranger is scum. I thought that was obvious based on my recent posting to her that said I wasn't willing to redirect the wagon from her because I wasn't townreading her, and when I told Magna that she was in no danger of being let off the hook today. Why did you think differently?

[Imperium]

I'd rather you pointed out what you didn't understand instead of asking me to repeat the process as well but yet you seemed ok with asking me to do it so why shouldn't you? Bit of an odd reaction to a simple request & laced in hypocrisy I might add.

You asked me what I didn't understand and what did I do? I pointed out why I didn't understand. I'm asking you to do the same.

And I don't mean to offend you with this post; you are correct that I asked you to explain your entire process in a place. I think that was a bad move, and I realized it after you responded. My questions were geared towards clearing up what I was confused about in that post; I wasn't trying to ask you about everything in an effort to be snarky.

[Titus]

That brings me back to if Imperium is scum, the team needs a second face type role.

Why?

In general, I am presuming the scumteam sends its towniest looking member to kill. In the event of a failed shot, people presume the scumfuck was the NK or it at least provides a strong argument for such.

Sending someone scummy doesn't work because a failed kill functions as a guilty. No one usually buys scum shoot scummy people.

[Imperium]

That brings me back to if Imperium is scum, the team needs a second face type role.

Why?

In general, I am presuming the scumteam sends its towniest looking member to kill. In the event of a failed shot, people presume the scumfuck was the NK or it at least provides a strong argument for such.

Sending someone scummy doesn't work because a failed kill functions as a guilty. No one usually buys scum shoot scummy people.

If that's the case, then Ranger makes absolutely no sense as a face; her predecessors were universally scumread for a while.

[Titus]

I disagree with that analysis. Ranger did a lot to rehab the slot. I'm not sure if I would have scumread her but for the terrible hammer. Perhaps my memory is wrong their though.

[Imperium]

But your argument is that there's a face who submitted the kills instead of us; I'm pointing out that Ranger doesn't make sense as that face based on the status of that slot on Nights 1 and 2, when Ranger wasn't in the game.

[Titus]

No one makes sense as the face with you really. That's my issue though.

The thing is scum not killing you ALSO makes no sense.

If you were scum, a second player capable of being in your league is very likely.

That doesn't say you are scum or not.

[Imperium]

No one makes sense as the face with you really. That's my issue though.

The thing is scum not killing you ALSO makes no sense.

If you were scum, a second player capable of being in your league is very likely.

That doesn't say you are scum or not.

KTS, Nos, Rach all make much more sense as possible faces - why didn't you mention them? Why was Ranger the first person you decided to mention who made sense as a face?

What kills do make sense? Does scum not killing Magna make sense? Does scum not killing Oceanwind make sense?

[Ollie]

Why weren't you engaged in the game?

Because I wasn't posting?
I go through periods of time when I'm tired after work and tend to do things that don't take as much thinking and focus as mafia does, and I post less during those times. When I fall behind in games, I have a harder time catching up since usually my window of time to post in a particular game isn't overly large. What are you expecting to gain from this question?

My point was that you didn't seem interested at a crucial part of the game. & I wanted to know why. I'd still expect you to keep up with the game. Personally I have it pinned to my browser so I don't forget about it. & I'm really tired now so I don't have sympathy with that excuse, everyone can find the time to make enough posts to stay engaged if they really want to. I'm still posting cos we're not at a point of the game where anyone can coast without being a hindrance or a shit townie. & by this point I mean this day. & there's 2 of you & neither one of you were bothered enough. Let's be real here, no offence Kelbris, but under a different mod the 2 of you wouldn't even have been active enough to even still be in his game as I had to pick up on your inactivity myself after over 4 days of it & then over another day whereby the decision to replace you had even been made. I have to question that at this stage of the game.

Did I think that you were scum? Sure I did!

Why did you think I was scum at that point?

I didn't respond to you immediately probably because I didn't see your post;

WOAH WOAH WOAH, you said before that you didn't see responding to me as a priority!

if I did, I didn't respond to it because, again, I was behind as shit and responding to you why I felt inclined to put down a vote on you that didn't last very long didn't interest me nor did I regard it as important.

Which one? In order to se my post as a priority you have to see it right? If you don't remember why did you not just say that?

I didn't follow up with my read because I wasn't that attached to it in the first place thanks to the not being engaged thing.

You said you thought I was scum. You thought I was scum enough to vote for me... But you weren't attached to it. You said you didn't see responding to me as a priority which now looks like an invention as you have also claimed you might not have seen my post. Does not compute.

[Titus]

No one makes sense as the face with you really. That's my issue though.

The thing is scum not killing you ALSO makes no sense.

If you were scum, a second player capable of being in your league is very likely.

That doesn't say you are scum or not.

KTS, Nos, Rach all make much more sense as possible faces - why didn't you mention them? Why was Ranger the first person you decided to mention who made sense as a face?

What kills do make sense? Does scum not killing Magna make sense? Does scum not killing Oceanwind make sense?

The kills not making sense does point to Ranger as scum. When I was scum with her in Open 627, we had difficulties picking kills.

KTS has had suspicion but no one voting for him, and is lurker mclurker to most. I don't see anyone defending KTS if he eats a jail and submits the kill.
Nos is a major scumread of mine that I've had for days. He's not a face.
Magna I thought was Nos's partner. I'm not surprised Magna's alive for that reason.

Oceanwind doesn't have quite the reputation as you or Ranger and there's been significant conflict between Ocean and Magna (and we can reasonably assume Magna's town).

[Imperium]

My point was that you didn't seem interested at a crucial part of the game. & I wanted to know why. I'd still expect you to keep up with the game. Personally I have it pinned to my browser so I don't forget about it. & I'm really tired now so I don't have sympathy with that excuse, everyone can find the time to make enough posts to stay engaged if they really want to. I'm still posting cos we're not at a point of the game where anyone can coast without being a hindrance or a shit townie. & by this point I mean this day. & there's 2 of you & neither one of you were bothered enough. Let's be real here, no offence Kelbris, but under a different mod the 2 of you wouldn't even have been active enough to even still be in his game as I had to pick up on your inactivity myself after over 4 days of it & then over another day whereby the decision to replace you had even been made. I have to question that at this stage of the game.

Can we talk about this specifically?
Why do you think that me lurking at this point in the game is alignment indicative?

[Titus]

My point was that you didn't seem interested at a crucial part of the game. & I wanted to know why. I'd still expect you to keep up with the game. Personally I have it pinned to my browser so I don't forget about it. & I'm really tired now so I don't have sympathy with that excuse, everyone can find the time to make enough posts to stay engaged if they really want to. I'm still posting cos we're not at a point of the game where anyone can coast without being a hindrance or a shit townie. & by this point I mean this day. & there's 2 of you & neither one of you were bothered enough. Let's be real here, no offence Kelbris, but under a different mod the 2 of you wouldn't even have been active enough to even still be in his game as I had to pick up on your inactivity myself after over 4 days of it & then over another day whereby the decision to replace you had even been made. I have to question that at this stage of the game.

Can we talk about this specifically?
Why do you think that me lurking at this point in the game is alignment indicative?

I'm going to nip this in the bud for at least the Tammy head. I don't know shit about Nacho but the Tammy head lurking for awhile was NAI.

[Killthestory]

RANGER'S READS TURNED US TO A MISLYNCH, SO HE MUST BE SCUM. HIS READS ARE WRONG, AND HIS READS ARE NEVER WRONG, SO HE MUST BE SCUM.

^Btw, Killthestory already knows this isn't true.

He's also at this point intentionally misgendering me.

d i e f a l s e p r o p h e t

[Ollie]

My only problem with the ISO by the time HA replaces in is that he didn’t even look at Jim’s posting until after the fact (1010). In fact this post to Ranger (1282) gives me some unease. If Jim was “scummy as fuck” why was there no ISO mention of it until after he replaced?

Actually, I think this post is a bit of a smoking gun if Ranger flips scum - 1010 comes immediately after HA replaced into the game and made his opening posts (which were ridiculous), when before that there wasn't a single mention of Jim. I can see scum!Ollie seeing that his partner's posts are terrible and deciding to bus, but I can't really imagine town!Ollie seeing that Jim was very obviously scum and not saying anything about it until after they are replaced and someone else starts posting. In my opinion, this also hurts the towncred he got from pushing at Ranger quite a bit - it looks like he planned a bus and I don't think that he'd go from ignoring to bussing to ignoring again after the groundwork he laid down from when HA replaced in.

Which of the 3 in the slot are you saying I thought was making terrible posts so I decided to bus? I had the actual post I quoted about Jim saved in my drafts, was gonna look back at the rest of his posts & build a case later as it was all so confusing to work out (this was towards the end of day 1). But I forgot about it as Jim wasn't posting to remind me & my focus fell on the impending lynch.