Mafia 158: Titanium. Game over

[Jun]

Just did an ISO of this game. I'll reread it non-iso'ed later. For now this will have to do.

My reads (in no particular order):

Town:

Hiraki

– very aggressive, similar to Majiffy (scum) in my Newbie Game who everyone thought was town. His actions seem pro town for now, so I am fine tentatively putting him as town because I think Majiffy’s play was the exception, not the rule, as players such as Thor665 even thought Majiffy was town.

NJAC

– play is consistent with town play in Newbie 1269. I feel confident marking this slot as town for now.

Thurhame

– Like NJAC, this play is consistent with his town play in Newbie 1269. I also feel confident making this slot town. I also think Thurhame replacing out due to time commitment is a town thing for him to do because he takes this game pretty seriously.

Maenara

– I feel like this slot is weak town. Tries to be helpful, but ends up voting players I feel are likely to be town. I think that Maenara’s opinion on NJAC is justified, without previous knowledge of how he plays the game as town. The hesitation about my slot also seems town for me, as I would expect scum to place me in one category, being more confident about their scum reads.

Mcstab

– I buy his “I’m busy with school” excuse. If that explains the lurking then I can see his slot as town. Hopefully he will post more this weekend. I am interested to see how he follows up with the PMysterious situation, as PMysterious’s lurking makes me think he’s lurking scum.

Shinori

– his attack on Eleison for being “off his meta” as town seems good. I’m fine with this slot being town for now, too.

Evilpacman

– I’m fine putting this slot as town. Definitely helps contribute to the scum hunt even if it’s misdirected at me. His responses don’t read as scum to me.

Pirate mollie

– Town leader type, helping us scumhunt. Seems town. ‘Nuff said.

Scum:

Eleison

– early/mid posts are completely devoid of content. I don’t like how he also won’t post his town reads because I think that it’s important to see if we can come to a consensus on some confirmed town for the triangulation. Votes what I consider a low hanging lurker fruit (Telo) who is already going to be V/LA until after the weekend. Very defensive about getting called out about his meta by Shinori.

Pmysterious

– has been completely useless thus far. I am putting this slot as scum for lurking after McStab tried to pressure this slot into revealing if they are scum or town by attempting to start a train on PMysterious. Seems to me like PMysterious is hoping the attention will drift off of him by the time he comes back to participate. Anti town to not participate in almost a week.

Smashbard

– Gives me a weird feeling for defending Eleison (my scum read). Says vaguely that he has a good reason to believe Eleison is town that is completely unclear to me at the moment. I can buy Eleison and Smashbard as a scum team.

Theomoaner

– seems like scum b/c of posts lacking in content or blatantly attacking people for things that imo don’t seem very scummy at all.

Unsure:

Slandaar

– I tend to read players with this posting style as scum so he is leaning slightly scum read for me. I don’t really have a good place to put him based on anything other than gut feeling. If Eleison flips scum I would think Slandaar might be scum bussing scum, hopping on that wagon early to avoid detection.

Dividizzle

– posts too infrequently for me to get a good read on him. Seems like lurking scum, and I’d like him to step up and contribute a lot more so I can get a proper read.

Telo

– Like dividizzle, this fellow posts too infrequently for me to get a proper read. Could be lurking scum, could simply be busy. Let’s not forget that this slot posts that he will be able to post after this weekend.


I think Eleison is my largest suspect for now, and his flip would give town the most information, imo. I don't like how PMysterious is lurking so much, but I'll drop it for now since he is gone and my vote there obviously isn't doing anything.
UNVOTE: PMysterious
VOTE: Eleison

[mykonian]

votecount

jun (3): Telo, theomoaner, evilpacman
eleison (2): slandaar, jun
shinori 2): smashbard, pirate mollie
NJAC (1): maenara
PMysterious (1): mcstab
pirate mollie (1): thurhame
theomoaner (1): Hiraki
telo (1): eleison
slandaar (1): NJAC
mcstab (1): shinori

not voting (2): pmysterious, dividizzle

[Slandaar]

Can we lynch Mcstab?

No.

[Slandaar]

5 poast combo!!!!1!

hiraki, slandaar, how do you guys feel about a shinori lynch?

No to this also.

[pirate mollie]

what 3 players would you be happy seeing lynched at this time?

[pirate mollie]

eta: I know PM but who else?

[Slandaar]

Why do you think there are 3 scum?

[pirate mollie]

I don't if there are 3 scum or not I am asking you for your 3 lynch picks so we can try to form some sort of town cohesion by looking at our choices.

[pirate mollie]

*know

[Slandaar]

Heres a list for you;

Mollie/Jun/Eleison.

Am I close?

[pirate mollie]

no.

why do I always look scummy when I am town when I am scum I never have this problem it is like fucking herding cats.

[Hiraki]

Wah.

[Shinori]

I still really would advocate the Elieson lynch.

[Hiraki]

Mod: Can you put the deadline in Vote Counts?

[dividizzle]

I agree that Mcstab's iso looks sketchy. Care to elaborate on why you wouldn't want a vote on him Slandaar?

[Maenara]

Jun, your only reason for defending NJAC so far is meta from one game.

That's bad.

[Slandaar]

Mcstabscum is not Townleader-Mcstab

[pirate mollie]

then why isn't your vote on him huh slandaar huh HUH?

[theomoaner]

Got a little internet time. So what happened

Jun posted this...

"In post 300, Jun"

These reads are rubbish Jun.

You have cleared NJAC and Thurhame on the basis of meta from 1 game played with them, how can you do this without having seen them play scum? How do you know there is a difference between their scum play and their town play?

And more than this how can you possibly have Thurhame as town from 11 posts, none of which contain anything resembling scum hunting (but I suppose you count jumping on my "wagon" as scumhunting)? Pretty much the same can be said for Mcstab. Pirate is scummier than a pond full of algae and you have her as town too?
PMyst = scum for lurking, if you place so much on meta from newb 1296, then take a glance at his meta, most games start with a strong desire to lynch him because he is a lurker extraordinaire. (he tries to play in too many and ends up "playing" in none because he can't keep up). This is just a lazy pretense at scumhunting.

And Pirate contradicted herself .... again.

...
themoaner - didn't like how he tried to reframe my low hanging fruit thing I had going on with smash.

I am not trying to paint myself as a newb

if anything my confidence is probably off putting to some people.

I am a newb

to the site not new to mafia, but I still consider myself low hanging fruit since this is my first game on here and there is no meta. hiraki also made a good case for him making a RVP into a scumtell. I could get on board with his lynch...

No, not the bold bits, the bits starting at "...made a good case for him making..."

And yet you then go on to make this observation about RVS votes.

okay you made a joke but your vote was sincere but you couldn't be bothered to distinguish between the 2 on a site

where most people's first post and first vote is typically treated as a joke/getting to know you vote?

cos that sounds squiffy. and you haven't stated as to why you found mcstab scummy in the first place nor why you still wanted his lynch in almost 150 posts later.

So, you accept the case that an RVS vote is often a joke... unless a good fake case can be made from it?

[pirate mollie]

I am not understanding the contradiction here. where did I talk about fake cases.

[Smashbard]

Based on individual ISO’s of each player who has posted thus far in this thread, so some of my gut reactions to certain posts at the time of their presentation may not be the same. I apologize ahead of time if this ends up getting long. If I get hard pressed for time I may split this up into reads concerning 3 players at a time going down the list because I want to avoid walls as much as possible so that people can easily read what I have to say.

But before I start, I want to bold this statement.

Everyone needs to stop bringing up bad “low hanging fruit” arguments to defend themselves from suspicion.

You are not getting any sympathy from me. This is my second SECOND game of Mafia on Mafiascum. The first being Newbie 1864, in which I was scum, and won. Go check it out if you want meta on me, and I will answer any questions you have pertaining to my play. This is what a responsible player is going to do in this game. Address concerns against them and, if town, will help redirect suspicions towards those who are actually scummy. I’m not going to fall to my knees and plead for mercy because I’m “low hanging fruit”. If I get heat on me, I suck it up and fight back as best as I can. That’s what you should all be doing too. Not falling back on “Sniffle, I’m just a newb and you’re picking on me! Sniffle sniffle”.

Dividizzle:
Post 231 was bad, but he retracted it so it tells me he’s more leaning towards new town than scum trying to cling to something that isn’t there. I like 281, as he sums up pretty nicely why NJAC is a prime suspect for scum. The wishy washiness from NJAC is bad, more on that later. I would like if he himself elaborated a bit more as to why he believes McStabs ISO is sketchy in 314, as it would help get a better idea what Divi’s state of mind is at this point. But otherwise…

Read So Far: Dividizzle is tizzle to the fe fye fo fizzle if you catch my drizzle? He hasn’t posted much. But from what he has I can tell he’s trying.

I have to go to my nieces first birthday party at the moment. But when I get home I’ll be finishing up as many ISO’s as I can. Eleison & Evilpacman are next.

[Smashbard]

Eleison:
Looked really antitown in the beginning trying to be Hiraki Jr, but Post 79 pretty much summed up why he was doing what he was doing in the early game, being abrasive in order to get reactions going.

Also, I want to bring to the front once again that it’s been stated HUNDREDS OF POSTS AGO that trying to guess alignment based off of previous meta when you’ve only shared 1-2 games with a person is going to get us nowhere. This even goes for Shinori & Eleison, you guys have both proven your point that the other player is super scummy all the time and likes to pull attention to themselves regardless of alignment. So unless you have an actual non-meta based case on one another, cut it out.

I understand why Eleison doesn’t want to share town reads, it makes sense if you are playing this game on your own and don’t know who you can or cannot trust. But I will say that I do not share that philosophy, as openly stating reads of who you think is town/scum is crucial in the early going as it helps us identify connections between players based off of flips that happen later.

I think there is at least one opportunistic scum on the Eleison wagon at this time taking advantage of an easy situation because it’s so simple to just say “He’s hiding information, must be scum!”. Or the much more ridiculous “He agrees with Mae, he must be scum!”. Unless you have a scumread on Mae, you can’t accurately say that Eleison is scummy for agreeing with him.

Post #147 definitely exposes Telo as scummier than most. More on that in the Telo ISO.

Posts #263 and #269 utterly annihilates Shinori’s case against him based on meta. So this, more than anything, solidifies my read on Eleison.

Read at this time: So Town he might as well be a metropolis.


EvilPacman:
I had a pretty solid read as Town for EvilPacman in the beginning as he was active, similar demeanor from his most recent town games and was able to answer my questions quickly and effectively. Post #78 is bad. Seems like he was trying to backtrack into going “Oh by the way, theo is scummy”. Probably leaning more null than scum on that, but it reads bad. He says he’s conservative with his vote, but he goes very quickly from not feeling Theo is scummier than Jun, to voting for him based on very little pushing from Hiraki, to unvoting him again and going back to Jun. Since then he’s went nearly a hundred posts without saying a thing of value. Which has really shaken my early town read on him.

Read at this time: Null leaning Scum that’s focusing too hard on early RVS play by Jun.

[McStab]

I am still rather quite busy, but dividizzle has struck me as scummy even with just a brief reread. Here is the case on him:

hey guys, sorry I'm a little bit late to the party. I hope everyone is doing well, I haven't played in quite a while and I forgot how intriguing this first round of suspicion is. My personal view on this first phase is that the most important part is to get everyone to come in, say hi and start talking. So here we go.

Vote: Telo

^^^Apologies the moment he comes in, this is actually a slight scumtell. His first few sentences reek of being forced and manufactured.

I'm not convinced by Eleison's plan either. @Eleison, you say you don't want to reveal your town reads but you also tell Mae and Mollie to stop intown bickering. Does that imply that you have a town read on them both?

^^^Quite obviously if he's calling their bickering "intown" it means that he thinks they are both town. Stop trying to score easy scumhunting points. It's pretty clear to me that Eleison is essentially against posting a long list of townreads, as opposed to acting as if anyone is town.

Unvote
Vote: Eleison

Sorry if this has already been mentioned as I read a little bit briefly while catching up but I am suspicious of Eleison's firm approval of Maenara's scum, town, inactivity list, given the fact that he is listed as number two on that list.

@Eleison: if you like those lists, how do you explain you appearing as scum to him?

^^^

Because he's scum and approves of being listed as such

This is such a stretching case. One can approve of one's actions even if they suspect you. As town, someone suspecting you doesn't necessarily mean they are scum.

After doing my reread, my initial reaction is that my two favored scum targets are NJAC and themoaner. Now I know that isn't terribly surprising because they have both drawn suspicion already but I want to point out a couple exchanges that made me question them.
In post 148, NJAC references themoaner and says he can’t tell if he’s scummy or not, keeping both distance and a lack of suspicion on him, then voting for someone else.
In post 183 he once again acknowledges that he had initial scum reactions to themoaner but then backs out.
Finally in post 242, NJAC questions why the wagon on themoaner died but quickly switches attention and places a vote on Slandaar for dubious reasons. It is worth noting that in the previous two posts he claimed that the wagon on themoaner didn’t look good, and then changed his mind to wonder why it didn’t go further.

I can’t tell if this is the play of a couple scum interacting. It raised suspicion with me because it just seemed very phony, as if placing some blame would distance him but not enough to actually cause themoaner any danger. Thoughts?

Also, just to add my opinions on two of the other most argued over players, I think both Pirate Mollie and Jun are giving me town vibes, albeit not in normal ways.

First off, "favored scum targets" is really weird vocabulary bordering on scumslip. Same with "Now I know that isn't terribly surprising because they have both drawn suspicion already". So you're saying it's not surprising that you suspect them given that there is already pressure on them?

Second, post 148 is you just grasping at straws for an association. I can't tell if Slandaar is scummy or not, and I'm about to vote you; this isn't scummy.

Third, in post 183, if he had initial scum reactions to themoaner but backs out it's likely because his reads have evolved. This is natural, particularly earlier in the game.

Your last point isn't that bad, I'll acknowledge that; but you are still trying to play off associative links without a flip.

You're asking for thoughts is tantamount to trying to fan the flames without attaching your name to it. Nice fencesitting on Pirate Mollie and Jun as well.

I agree that Mcstab's iso looks sketchy. Care to elaborate on why you wouldn't want a vote on him Slandaar?

^^^What in particular looks sketchy? Why didn't you mention anything before?

Vote:dividizzle

PM will make himself known as scum if he is scum later. Right now, this guy needs some votes on him.

[dividizzle]

That is actually a pretty terrible case against me and I hope it is just coincidence that it comes right after I mention some suspicion of you. Just to deal with a couple of the points:

How is apologizing (by the way it's not really an apology it's more like a hello) a scumtell? Literally introducing myself...feel free to check my activity since I joined the site and you'll see there is nothing forced or manufactured about that introduction. Plus, you'll notice that it's pretty clear that I don't really know what to do in that very early stage and I start to participate more when I start to see what's going on.

As to the definition of in-town, I was clearly questioning what appeared to be a mild contradiction on his part, not his use of language.

'favored scum targets' is a scummy thing to say? really??

I don't think I was really fencesitting on those two either, because I said they seemed town to me though others claimed they seemed scummy.

I'm very intrigued by some of the things you think are scumtells.

@Smash: Reading Mcstab's iso seemed sketchy because of the intense focus on the obvious inactive/lurker and lack of anything else. Though what interested me just as much was the questioning of him by Shinori and categorical denial by Slandaar.

[Jun]

Dividizzle, I would like to see you post a little more so I can try to assess whether or not I think you are town or not.

And to everyone getting mad at me for saying NJAC and Thurhame are town after only playing 1 game with them: They are being consistent with their town style play which I have seen so they can be town for now. I'd rather get rid of the people I think are scummy or am unsure about before voting for them. Does that make sense?