Open 518 LotteryLand (EndGame)

[Beginner]

I'm VLA until the 26th, but am reading. Posting will be spotty, my apologies in advance. Regardless of who you think/decide we should hang today, don't rush the friggin day phase like Mutters did yesterday. It just handicaps town, dramatically.

If anybody had given me a chance to post some thoughts/reads yesterday, you would've heard my opinion on Saki more thoroughly. I just finished a game with him (and Sakura) where my reads on him (and her) were dead nuts on and it was almost a flawless town win. Saki has good gut instincts but is still noobish and can be temperamental. The logic doesn't always compute but meh. Sakura, I pegged wrong this game.

I thought since she piled on the Saki vote, right in the butterzone, plus some numbers lottery theory, that she was pretty solid scum. Last game I hazed Saki and Sakura, got great profiles and reads on them both. I expected town Sakura would've shown some prudence in the vote, especially on D1 dominated by a single WIFOM voice (Mutley) and leveraged off my read on Saki

(Town Bauss or Scum Bauss, alignment regardless, I didn't want to hang Saki because he was town. Scum knows he's town, town Bauss has good reads on Saki.)

I was feeling confident after reading her last game and seeing a departure from what I knew/expected from Sakura as town play.

TLDR, I'm the one shot town vig. I popped Sakura last night. I was wrong. My bad. Even the Bauss makes mistakes sometimes.

I'm fine with being the default lynch for today, as my role is useless now and I screwed up pretty good offing Sakura... but not before a good solid debate and contributions from all the players.

We cant afford to stay behind on the info anymore which is all we managed to do during D1.

Heck, I owe an explanation to all of you.

1) I hate how he keeps alluding to himself and self-metaing with the terms "Scum Bauss" and "Town Bauss." That rubs me the wrong way in his explanation of his vig choice.

2) "YA KNOW I'm fine being default lynched today" (What kind of attitude is that if you just said YOU THINK MUTTERS'S WORDS HAVE BEEN WIFOM. How the heck can you be okay with that???? For a player like you, to appeal to us with that self-defeatist attitude just irks me. Majorly.

Bert town? If Bauss flips scum, I'm thinking mitillos is also scum.

[Beginner]

I agree that WIFOM is not helping town. If it is true that it contributed to Saki claiming scum, then it seems to suggest that it will only hurt town even more if it continues. However, the fact that Saki didn't honour his win condition is annoying.

CHEESE.

This isn't cute. What were you expecting? A medal?

Bert, gut instincts aren't all that helpful. You say that you don't like Bauss referring to himself as town/scum Bauss. Why is that? What correlation is there between referring to yourself and your alignment? Also, how do you reconcile post 143 and post 172? Also, your post 177 seems too friendly to me, and what is stopping you from doing something while you wait?

Mutters is WIFOM to the max, plus role fishing on D1, plus dominating the conversation. So yeah, its a bunch of anti-town behavior. BUT, despite all that, and my assertion of all those things yesterday... he still rallied enough voters to back him and lynch up Saki. (Scary) That means we need to get a conversation going that will get some people into the game instead of just following the guy that screams the loudest.

I'm not sure about this. Saki claimed scum after a mistake that would have been noticed had Mutley not mentioned it (Sakura pointed it out too). The bandwagon occurred after Saki said he was scum. It was seems like frustration (and petulance) on the part of Saki, rather than an aptitude for scumhunting on the part of Mutley. However I agree with you that there needs to be more conversation.

Your response to this argument somehow doesn't sit well with me. I haven't played mafia for a while, but isn't it still the case that an argument based upon a player's metagame is a weak argument? You seem to suggest that he was temperamental in the last game you played with him, so why play again?

Eh, you're going off gut so mine's just a massive overreaction, but whatever.

I just really don't agree with your reasons for voting bauss.

As Bert said, your overreaction isn't all that helpful either. Why don't you agree? How is it a serious vote and also an overreaction? Is this how you usually play on day two? How do you explain your vote on bert in the light of your recent vote on mutley?

Mutley, there is something strange about post 160 and post 175. You say you can understand why bauss would act the way he did if he were town, and then say that you don't need much confirming that he is scum?

I feel like I'm misunderstanding something.

Darger leans town.

[Beginner]

also like I say your only defence on why you took those roles is oh yo uare using too much WIFOM. It's not WIFOM cos its set up logic.

What are you talking about? You're foaming at the mouth. I explained quite clearly and logically why I chose the role I did and how I chose my target for last night. You are SPECULATING on what other people would do if they were town or scum. Its exactly WIFOM. To top it off, you've been wrong about almost everything this entire game. You're borderline useless, and you're incomprehensible arguments are based entirely on speculation.

Your thoughts on Saki... why would scum claim scum when he did? He barely had any case against him. Not to mention it would be against his win condition (if he were scum.) He said "Yeah, I claim scum" sarcastically and that was just an easy excuse for you to continue spewing bs and defend your shat case. You didn't take time to be careful, and choose wisely... you rammed a lynch as fast as you could. If you're town, that's terrible play. Are you happy with what you did D1? Are you proud of it? Because you're following in your own footsteps again for D2. A path to failtown.

If you are town, and you're clearly camping the thread, why aren't you trying to get a conversation going? If I had more time, I'd be trying to draw people in, pressure the lurkers, etc. You've got all the time in the world and you aren't doing shit. Even if you really believe youre right about me, you've still got other scum to find. Are you lazy? Do you not care? We're down 3 townies and you're content with sitting tight? Get to work, or gtfo.

This post was the post that made me think likea is scum.
Note the following: likea has been trying to push mutley (easy lynch?) to death. Likea tells mutley what he

should

be doing as town. Funny thing is, Likea fails to do the very same prior to this post. Hypocritical much? Several pages later (maybe to not look like a hypocrite.. too late lol) likea does exactly what he says mut should be doing. If likea truly believed what he was saying here, he would have been implementing it already prior to stating it. As it stands, there are 7 entire pages of his not doing what he is telling mut to do.

[Beginner]

Although I think likeabauss reaction to saki claiming scum is very scummy.

VOTE: likeabauss

at this point I doubt either mutley or bauss is scum.

I think either one or the other is scum. Activity does not count as an alignment indicative.

[Beginner]

Ok ignore all the Apparent WIFOM

What about him knowing saki was going to flip town

.

What about the fact he killed Sakura for being scum Sakura even though she was bleeding her town meta

[Beginner]

Bert is probably town.

[Beginner]

Alright I just saw the defense for the 'knowing saki is town'
the defense: sheer semantics.
Unless it were an idiot, no mafia would ever openly declare an alignment D1. It's more his defending saki, showing that he

probably

knew she was town before she flipped.
I don't know what to make of siv.

[Beginner]

If bauss flips scum, I think likely scum would be mitilos and siv.

[Mist7676]

Mitillos, Jennifer, and likeabauss have been prodded.

Mitillos doesn't receive a prod strike as he is semi-V/LA or will be treated as such.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Beginner, why address noctan and sakura?

The whole one or the other is lovely for scum, we lynch one and oopsie, well, it must be the other!

This post was the post that made me think likea is scum.
Note the following: likea has been trying to push mutley (easy lynch?) to death. Likea tells mutley what he

should

be doing as town. Funny thing is, Likea fails to do the very same prior to this post. Hypocritical much? Several pages later (maybe to not look like a hypocrite.. too late lol) likea does exactly what he says mut should be doing. If likea truly believed what he was saying here, he would have been implementing it already prior to stating it. As it stands, there are 7 entire pages of his not doing what he is telling mut to do.

About this, mutley has way more posts and time than bauss. There aren't 7 pages of him not doing this, because he wasn't there for the first 4.

Beginner seems to accept mutley-town way too easily and is still questioning people who also go for it.

VOTE: beginner

[frog]

Beginner, some of the people you've addressed are no longer in the game, and quoting posts and following it up with 'is likely town' doesn't generate any content but just clutters the thread. I'm hesitant to vote you because I liked how Noctans was playing and you've already claimed fruit vendor. Siveure, what bearings does Noctans' claim have on your read of Beginner?

[Beginner]

Beginner, why address noctan and sakura?

The whole one or the other is lovely for scum, we lynch one and oopsie, well, it must be the other!

This post was the post that made me think likea is scum.
Note the following: likea has been trying to push mutley (easy lynch?) to death. Likea tells mutley what he

should

be doing as town. Funny thing is, Likea fails to do the very same prior to this post. Hypocritical much? Several pages later (maybe to not look like a hypocrite.. too late lol) likea does exactly what he says mut should be doing. If likea truly believed what he was saying here, he would have been implementing it already prior to stating it. As it stands, there are 7 entire pages of his not doing what he is telling mut to do.

About this, mutley has way more posts and time than bauss. There aren't 7 pages of him not doing this, because he wasn't there for the first 4.

Beginner seems to accept mutley-town way too easily and is still questioning people who also go for it.

VOTE: beginner

I was told Mutley's behavior is his meta.
Siv, from my experience, meta-confirmation is pretty accurate most of the time.

Post time quantity is irrelevant. Bauss may not have had the same post time, but he's not neglecting the game. Quite contrary, he's been following up on the game (apparent in his regular interval of posting, and his posts, when made, are pretty decent wall-o'-texts.
Siv, how is his post quantity more important than his post content? Why are you intentionally ignoring Bauss's post content?

[Beginner]

Siv, what really ties you to bauss is your utter disregard for him. It's something I often see in experienced scumbuddies. They never really converse.
Siv, I don't even know whether or not you agree with my points simply because you've ignored all of them, opting instead for singular, lesser relevant details to push my vote.
Siv, instead of telling me why you think my posts are viable enough for your voting me for lynch,

I would like to know why you've chosen to ignore my points

(the meat of my content)

on Likeabauss.

[Beginner]

Beginner, some of the people you've addressed are no longer in the game, and quoting posts and following it up with 'is likely town' doesn't generate any content but just clutters the thread. I'm hesitant to vote you because I liked how Noctans was playing and you've already claimed fruit vendor. Siveure, what bearings does Noctans' claim have on your read of Beginner?

Alright I messed up.. I wasn't paying attention to the living players list as much as I was to scummy/towniness in post behavior/content. Disregard the mention to dead players.
What do you think of my points on likeabauss?

[Mitillos]

Sorry for the inactivity.

@Beginner: I don't think Bert is town. ISO me, to see my case against him. You also questioned how he came to the conclusion that mutley is town and bauss is scum, but then you forget about that. As for bauss' alignment, your case on him is weak. You contradict yourself in posts 293 and 296 on whether being certain of someone's alignment is scummy or not. Also, in my experience, huge long arguments are more often town vs. town than town vs. mafia. And I see both mutley and bauss as trying to scumhunt, albeit in different ways, so I don't like the "one of the two is mafia" assertion.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Also, we should finish the massclaim. Ummm.

Getting rid of the argument. Keep claiming. Um. I think jennifer's the only one not to claim pr/vt?

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

To clarify, I censored stuff that's not to do with massclaim after writing that post.

[likeabauss]

If I was scum I'd have no reason to reveal the info I currently hold and would keep it secret.

the only people who are certain about alignment on D1 are scum. And you sound pretty certain.

BS, I've seen lots of town accuse with certainty (and are wrong as often as not). So why did you think mutley scum?

I made my case for mutley. If you have specific questions, please ask.

[Beginner]

293 and 296 do not contradict. Bauss turns out correct in his defending Saki (quite suspect when we consider the fact that, with only the mafia knowing who town are, the defense is barely justified). I saw it more likely that likebauss is looking for town cred here than actually trying to defend Saki. Mutley turned out justifiably wrong in trying to lynch Saki (Saki claiming scum). That's a huge distinction you're missing, Siv.
Is this intentional ignorance I'm seeing?
Siv, scum can fake arguments. I see it often. Where do you get off equating posting quantity to towniness? Siv, please. Activity does not count as a good alignment indicative. I feel like I'm repeating myself.. oh wait, I AM! Why the hell are you ignoring my content?
It's also been established via meta that mutley is probably town. I did initially FOS mutley, but I don't anymore. IF bauss flips town, I wouldn't lynch mutley. Disregard the 'one or the other' statement since you're obviously taking it the wrong way. English..

[Beginner]

If I was scum I'd have no reason to reveal the info I currently hold and would keep it secret.

the only people who are certain about alignment on D1 are scum. And you sound pretty certain.

BS, I've seen lots of town accuse with certainty (and are wrong as often as not). So why did you think mutley scum?

I made my case for mutley. If you have specific questions, please ask.

Make it again because I've went over the day and have examined the conversation between you and Mutley. Isn't Mutley's behavior supposedly his town meta (multiple sources say so)?
Are you saying that town is never wrong.. ever??
Bauss, why did you think Saki was inno (other than meta since that's just lazy and you were the only one touting it)?
Bauss.. is tunneling an easy-lynch target (case against whom is premade D1) and being hypocritical your meta?

[Beginner]

Don't answer that last question.

[Beginner]

Fix: Post 318 applies to and addresses mitillos, not siv.

[Mitillos]

@Beginner: "Turned out" can not be a defense and an attack, though. This is a posteriori knowledge that you are ascribing to exactly one of them. That means that your argument begs the question, by being tantamount to circular logic. Also, I did not equate quantity to towniness. I equated scumhunting to towniness. And whilst scum can fake both arguments and scumhunting, if I see two people scumhunting and one other not doing so, I'm going to go with first principles and say that the one who's being anti-town is scummier than the two who are being pro-town, in my eyes. So, I am reading both mutley and bauss as town. If you want to convince me that bauss is scum, show me something he did that town doesn't and that doesn't start by assuming the premise that you are trying to prove.
As for "English", I will respond with "coherence". Don't make two dozen posts with conflicting reads, by going through the thread and responding to everything you see. Read, make your evaluations and post them. In fewer posts, maybe even one.

tl;dr: You're committing two logical fallacies: Strawmanning my points and circular logic. Also, don't blame me for your bad posting style.

[frog]

I'd also like to politely request you tidy up your posting habits. At the current moment they are not very helpful.

I'm coming to believe that Mutley and bauss could be town-on-town. I'm hesitant to go after Beginner as I thought Noctans was town, and as much as I'd like Bert to be lynched, he may be modkilled soon so there's little point.

Jennifer it would be lovely if you could get in here and do some of that posting you've neglected thus far.

[Mitillos]

@frog: Why exactly would you be going after beginner? Cluttering the thread isn't alignment indicative and he is generating content, by going through the thread and making reads, i.e. scumhunting. My read on him is town, so am I missing something, or are you just too annoyed by the large number of consecutive posts?