Open 621 (C9++): The ZAR SHOW S1 Holiday Special - OVER!

[Lucky2u]

why do I care?

[AlwaysInnocent]

why do I care?

1. Because I don't like being lynched.
2. The vote seems somewhat opportunistic.

When I asked you why you cared about my revised read on Lowell, I really meant to ask why you cared. Are you defending him?

[Lucky2u]

how is it opportunistic?

I asked you a question and you answered with a question about my question. That's scum misdirection. So do you feel like answering now?

[AlwaysInnocent]

how is it opportunistic?

I'm an easy target.

I asked you a question and you answered with a question about my question. That's scum misdirection. So do you feel like answering now?

He is actively lurking. That concerns me.

[AlwaysInnocent]

VOTE: KMD

[Yosarian2]

I skimmed the games you linked about BTT in your post, anen. Offhand I don't really see the difference between his scum play and town play you're talking about, but I'll look again in more detail when I have more time (this is just a quick phone post).

Lucky: the whole "i posted content so now unvote me" thing is a little weak; most of the content you posted was just discussing mafia theory even though apparently you don't want to discuss mafia theory. Can you give us a few more reads? Who do you think looks townish, who looks scummy?

[Lucky2u]

oh I'm only asking you to unvote me because you said you would. You left your vote on me because I was being a lurker, which I was. Now that I am back, explain why I am scum or unvote me. I already told you who my scum reads are, read again if you didn't catch it. So who looks most town? For me that question is really, who appears the least scum? That would be BBT right now.

[shaddowez]

For me that question is really, who appears the least scum? That would be BBT right now.

Are you sure you're reading up on the same game? I don't necessarily read him as scummy right now, but I definitely wouldn't say most town(or least scummy, in your words)

[Albert B. Rampage]

oh I'm only asking you to unvote me because you said you would. You left your vote on me because I was being a lurker, which I was. Now that I am back, explain why I am scum or unvote me. I already told you who my scum reads are, read again if you didn't catch it. So who looks most town? For me that question is really, who appears the least scum? That would be BBT right now.

You seem to care an awful lot about being voted.

[Yosarian2]

oh I'm only asking you to unvote me because you said you would.

Not quite what I said.

I said I would not unvote you until you posted content. Not that you posting content would guarentee an immediate unvote. Obviously that would depend on what that content was and how it affected my read on you.

Now that I am back, explain why I am scum or unvote me.

(shrug) You have not yet convinced me you are town, and Anen's impassioned defense of BBT has made me doubt my read there at least until i have time to do some serious meta homework, so I don't see any reason to move my vote at the moment. Right now, that's all the case I need.

You want me to move my vote, convince me someone else is a better suspect.

I already told you who my scum reads are, read again if you didn't catch it. So who looks most town? For me that question is really, who appears the least scum? That would be BBT right now.

Interesting. Why BBT?

[Lucky2u]

I don't want you to move your vote, I don't really care about that. My concern is that you parked your vote on a player who was a then lurker so you wouldn't have to take a stance on anyone else. Now that I'm here and active, if you truly believe me to be scum then I've achieved my goal. You're not hiding your vote.

[Albert B. Rampage]

I don't want you to move your vote, I don't really care about that. My concern is that you parked your vote on a player who was a then lurker so you wouldn't have to take a stance on anyone else. Now that I'm here and active, if you truly believe me to be scum then I've achieved my goal. You're not hiding your vote.

First of all, I don't know where did you got the idea that Yosarian was voting you because you were lurking, he never said that. He said he was townreading players who were active and doing interesting things. You seem to have extrapolated from that sentence that he's solely voting you because of your absence, which you're justifying for him why he should be unvoting you.

Second of all, Yosarian is one of the players who has provided the most reads and opinions. Your accusation that he's hiding behind a lurker vote is outrageous.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Yosarian, what's the main account of roflcopter?

[Lucky2u]

well actually albert...

[

Yos

- I can't say I'm a fan of lists since they provide no information, so since you gave one I'll ask about it. What makes Kop null-town but tex null-scum? They've had about the same amount of posts, and neither of them have really said anything groundbreakings.
Are you still voting Lucky because of their lurking, or because you actually think they're more scummy than your only other full scum read, BBT?
What made you change rofl from being "super town" in 151 to "leaning town" in 192?

I don't want to unvote lucky until he posts some real content.

It's a mater of principle; i voted him for lurking

, he came in and posted a few times but flatly refused to post content. That does not fly, towns should never let people get away with that.

Kop and tex are both basically null. I liked Kop's posts slightly more then tex, at least he seemed to be thinking about the game, but nothing major.


ROFL hasnt really changed. He's still probably town. Not quite as sure about him as some others, he can be tricksy, but he looks townish.

I don't know why people are so anti-list. Everyone should make a list, even if you don't share it. It forces you to read every single player in the game, and to try and form an opinion on them, even if it's not based on much.

so how exactly should I have taken that post? hmmm?

[Albert B. Rampage]

I missed that post. Nevertheless, my second point stands.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Hope everyone had a great Christmas!

What do you think of ABR's play? You argue that he's playing mildly, but don't actually express any thoughts on whether you think his current play style is scummy or not.

ABR is null at the moment - he hasn't done anything to tip my read one way or the other. I find ABR quite difficult to read and he has fooled me before as scum so I'm going to take my time and keep that read close to my chest as it develops.

BBT, don't twist my words. I didn't say that you should have known that.

I know you didn't, but you stated it like I should have known that's what you did and I should not have had the audacity to question your lucky vote. The fact is, when you voted Lucky you showed no prior reasoning leading towards a Lucky vote and you did it straight after somebody else voted him. That sets off alarm bells for me.

lowell, kop, shadow and toffee are all town and should all climb aboard the always innocent wagon with me for great justice

Walk me through why Lowell and Kop are town?

Why is Yossarian scummier than AlwaysInnocent?

He's not necessarily scummier then AI, but I feel like Yos would be the trickier one to catch if they were both scum and so I'm much more interested in spending my energy getting him lynched at this present time.

Kop and shadow are town???

Is KMD town? A friend wants to know.

Why have you ignored my earlier question?

You claimed it was "scummy to make a list" with absolutely no justification for that fairly bizarre statement (especially since making a list is pretty much a universal behavior from many people irrespective of alignment). Anyway, the only real way to town-hunt is to make a list of people who look town, and then go after people not on the list.

I'm pretty sure I said why I didn't like your reads-list when I posted. You should go read my post again.

You're right though, lots of people make reads-lists. Sometimes though, a reads-list just isn't required, or it doesn't say a lot or there is something else wrong with it. I have caught scum by them posting awful reads-lists before. You wouldn't be the first.

It's not actually the 'making of the list' that's scummy. I mean, it still kind of is because nobody needs a reads-list on page 5 or whatever it was, but it's the fact that you felt the need to post it. You didn't need to post it, the only purpose of posting it is to look 'pro-town', especially as you later admit your reads are based mainly on gut.

This is not "playing mildly". He's being deliberately provocative to try to get a reaction from people, which is pretty much what I'd expect.

I've cut the quotes out from ABR - go and look at what happened right before ABR started posting like that. I picked the fight with ABR, not the other way around. Therefore, your reasoning for your ABR town read is false and I call BS.

I think I just explained that?

He's trying to scumhunt, he doesn't care how his scumhunting makes him look, he's aggressive, he's not being cautious. Those are all town traits.

The main difference between town and scum is that town's #1 priority is to find scum, while scum's #1 priority is not being lynched. When a person starts taking risks, being aggressive, and sticking their necks out to try to find scum, apparently without caring how it makes them look, that's a town tell.

Fantastic. Now, tell me why these tells apply to AI and not me? Because I'm not seeing consistency in your reads.

Why are you trying so hard to get me to defend AI, anyway? Why do you care so much where my town read comes from? I could understand your play if you thought AI was scum, but as it is, your whole thrust here just looks wierd.

Firstly, I'm making you do anything, nice try, but you make your own choices and create your own posts. Secondly, I am clearly doubting your AI town read, I think it is clear to see from my posting that I do not think AI is town so I'm not sure why you're feigning confusion.

If you want to know, I think that I posted a list that had you in the "scummy" catagory, and you massivly over-reacted in a pretty irrational way, that didn't really make any sense at all. That makes you look bad.

Not only that, it makes me think that if you do flip scum, that probably most or all of your scum team is also on that scum list I posted, or you wouldn't be trying so hard to discredit me.

I don't think I over-reacted. I think I've caught scum.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

His back and forth with you after your RVS vote on him gave me that vibe.

What do you think about Yos reading those exact same posts as aggression and using that as a reason to town read ABR?

His vote and then later unvote for ABR on wasn't great; I get the vote was probably random, but then removing for reason was eeehh.

I voted ABR for ignoring me and then unvoted him when he started interacting with me. Can you explain your problem with this a little more?

Can you be a little more specific about what you don't like about my 142? Your vague accusations make them difficult to respond to, which I'm sure is the point of them.

ANd then he flipped out about my "list" in a really irrational way, spending 3 posts talking about it and demanding that I be lynched. The fact that he reacted so badly to it just makes me think that I have his entire scum team on my naughty list, and he's upset that his whole scum team is getting coal this year.

You keep saying I flipped out about your reads-list and that really isn't what happened. I quite clearly had a problem with your reads-list and I have explained why on numerous occasions. You keep saying it was an irrational response, but quite clearly that's a false statement.

Why the hell do people keep voting for me? This is really getting stupid. I'm not sure if people are voting me because I'm actually scumhunting, or if people are voting me because God forboid a lot of my early-day 1 reads are gut (what the hell else couldthey be based on?) but nobody on this wagon has given any kind of reason for voting me. I mean, the only person who even tried to make a case was BBT, but he's probably scum.

Lowell, why is it that you said one thing about me that was 100% false, I proved it was 100% false, you didnt' respond, then you said another thing about me that was 100% wrong, I proved it was 100% wrong, and you then ingored both points and voted for me with no explanation?

I mean, if nobody else is going to try to actually play mafia this game, then I'll stop putting so much effort in, that's fine.

The AtE is strong with this one. This is what you call over-reacting, my friend. You only have 3 votes. I need another 4 to lynch you, don't panic just yet.

If Yosarian is town, then BBT might indeed be scum.

This is bad. How have you made this connection?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

BBT

- You seem to keep popping in and picking apart people's posts, but haven't really provided any information or seem to be looking to understand things. Do you have some thoughts you'd like to share?

Is there something in particular you're looking for? I think I have provided plenty of information and have shown my thought process around several issues so far.

I don't really have scumreads at this point. However if I have to make a guess, then scum could be among these people:

BBT
Albert B.
KMD
Yosarian

Why for each?

Uh. What? I'm playing in an incredibly risky fashion to the point of recklessness here to try and lynch scum.

What? How is your play in any way reckless and how are you trying to lynch scum? You're voting a lurker, a lurker who you have no case on I should add.

I mean, obviously i knew that calling half the people in the game town was going to get me attacked, and defending contraversial people like AI, you, Albert, and rolf was likely to get me voted. But I'm clearly right; it really looks like all 4 of you are town. If I was scum I'd have sat back and let you 4 tear each other up.

OK, so this makes no sense at all. You

expected

to be attacked for your reads-list (cough *you're lying* cough), I attacked you, and you called me scum for it? Can you explain how that works when you was expecting to be attacked?

Scum don't have to "take control of the game". If the loudest and most agressive players are town and they all fight each other, the scum can just stay out of the way and let them fight.

This is another comment in a growing list of comments that seem to directly contradict your read on me. Let's talk about that.

I find it incredibly frustrating that there's a wagon on me for no real reason when i feel like my play has been so on point, and so effective, and so obviously pro-town.

I actually laughed out loud when I read this sentence. The pro-town part just killed me.

My scum pool is Lowell and Lucky.

I feel like your vote is getting stale.

Thoughts on why Lowell and Lucky are scum and thoughts on Yos?

[acryon]

Acryon, so those votes were what town needed according to your answer, but when asked to elaborate that's no longer the case or...? Because if not, why say itthe first time? I asked initially because it had the feel of being made up on the spot rather than a description of what you were thinking at the time and this answer from you solidifies my thought on that?

Isn't it clear that there is a difference between "I'm going to play a little fast and loose with my play and votes early on since it seems like this group will react to it" and deciding on each vote "This is what town needs in this moment". I will certainly prescribe to the former, but the latter is a bit too calculated for even me. Feel free to re-read my last post if you want further clarification here.

No. That is absolutely not the same thing.

Uh huh.

Yos, even then I'm having trouble seeing how scum can take control of the game by not being the more aggressive players. Can you elaborate why on Page 10 with no flips yet and a wagon on you, you feel you are "playing well"? And why you think rofl and myself are "controversial"?

Eh, it's a fairly effective strategy for scum to sit back, especially early on and let the town tear each other up.

Bad answer.

What makes it a bad answer? Things aren't black and white. You weren't moving onto wagons to pressure people, you weren't starting wagons. You jumped on a wagon that looked like it was gaining steam, then when that one died off and a new one started, you jumped on that one. Both votes were basically naked, and did not look like honest RVS votes. As I said earlier, it was the scummiest thing I had seen, but I've liked your contributions since.

Your answer feels like quite a jump. Describing my two (very clearly) RVS votes the way you did is pretty disingenuous if not scummy. You're either looking for something that's not necessarily there, or you're trying to push something you know isn't there. I'm inclined to believe it's a bit of both at the moment.

Do you really believe that of someone who has been playing for 8 years?

That's Applying to Authority, or whatever the name of that logical fallacy is.
(Generally speaking, the tune of your 209 is something I've never seen from you before, and right now I don't know what I should think of it.)

I don't agree. If you look at the context, I don't think it's unreasonable at all to not assume that a veteran player is posting something because they are being "stupid". If you want to clear a new player based on the premise of them not understanding a situation, then that's a little more passable, but I don't think it's ridiculous to assume that a veteran player is less likely to play stupidly. Regarding your other comment, I told you all I like to switch things up

Sorry all for the overall lack of content from me. I'm glad I'm getting to at least post some mild catch-ups in my V/LA, but I'll be full-bore after my V/LA ends.

[AlwaysInnocent]

I don't agree. If you look at the context, I don't think it's unreasonable at all to not assume that a veteran player is posting something because they are being "stupid". If you want to clear a new player based on the premise of them not understanding a situation, then that's a little more passable, but I don't think it's ridiculous to assume that a veteran player is less likely to play stupidly.

Except when they become overconfident because they are more experienced. It happens all the time. I have seen new players play better than experienced players simply because new players are more self-conscious and do not assume that they are right because of minor things.

[Zar]

Day 1, Votecount 4, Ammended

AlwaysInnocent (4): Aneninen, roflcopter, Kmd4390, Lucky2u
Yosarian2 (3): BlueBloodedToffee, acryon, Lowell
Lucky2u (2): Yosarian2, Albert B. Rampage
Kmd4390 (1): AlwaysInnocent
texcat (1): Kop

Not Voting (2):

texcat, shaddowez

With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch or to no lynch.

Deadline

: Saturday January 9, 2016 11:30 AM  New York Time. (GMT-5)

Countdown to deadline

: (expired on 2016-01-09 11:30:00)

Spoiler: Incorrect VC

Day 1, Votecount 4

AlwaysInnocent (3): Aneninen, roflcopter, Lucky2u
Yosarian2 (3): BlueBloodedToffee, acryon, Lowell
Lucky2u (2): Yosarian2, Albert B. Rampage
Kmd4390 (1): AlwaysInnocent
texcat (1): Kop

Not Voting (2):

texcat, shaddowez

With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch or to no lynch.

Deadline

: Saturday January 9, 2016 11:30 AM  New York Time. (GMT-5)

Countdown to deadline

: (expired on 2016-01-09 11:30:00)

Mod is V/LA through Saturday

Lowell is V/LA until Monday

~~~. Vote Count Fixed. ~.Zar

[Zar]

Kop is being prodded.

[Kmd4390]

If BBT is indeed town, then it is likely that Yosarian is scum.

You seem to be scumreading Yos anyway. Why does BBT being town make Yos scum?

Hm. Not sure why I thought Lowell was fence-town. After having re-read his ISO, he seems to be more of a lurker than I thought. I am placing him as fence-scum for now.

^Guys, remember what I said about AlwaysInnocent's lurker hunt getting to the point of being too calculated. Well, now a guy whose posts he liked is scum for lurking. No one can honestly think the game is as simple as those who post are town and those who don't are scum.

I'm an easy target

This is, and always has been, a copout. Anyone who is widely seen as scummy is an "easy target". Caught scum is just as easy a target as mislynch bait.

What do you think about Yos reading those exact same posts as aggression and using that as a reason to town read ABR?

He's probably reading it in a different tone than I am. I see someone going "hey we played a game together and now we're both here, cool". Maybe Yos saw more seriousness? I dunno. That's my best guess, but it definitely didn't come off as aggressive to me. I also don't think aggression is a town tell though, so meh.

Isn't it clear that there is a difference between "I'm going to play a little fast and loose with my play and votes early on since it seems like this group will react to it" and deciding on each vote "This is what town needs in this moment". I will certainly prescribe to the former, but the latter is a bit too calculated for even me. Feel free to re-read my last post if you want further clarification here.

Uhhhh. You were the one who said you do what you think town needs when you were asked about those votes. I asked why and you suddenly had nothing. To be perfectly honest, I'm having trouble following this (it's 8am and I just got out of work after getting there at 2pm) but it seems like you're all over the place on it and not talking about the same thing I'm trying to talk about.

[AlwaysInnocent]

You seem to be scumreading Yos anyway. Why does BBT being town make Yos scum?

Since BBT is eager to lynch Yosarian, it seems.

^Guys, remember what I said about AlwaysInnocent's lurker hunt getting to the point of being too calculated. Well, now a guy whose posts he liked is scum for lurking. No one can honestly think the game is as simple as those who post are town and those who don't are scum.

Right. No one thinks that. Not even me. It is too simple, indeed.

[AlwaysInnocent]

And because I had slight scumreads on both of them, in case you want to take my comments out of context again.