Open 621 (C9++): The ZAR SHOW S1 Holiday Special - OVER!

[Kmd4390]

I like you Anen. Regarding me being a wagon-hopper, I tend to switch up my style based on what the town seems to need, especially D1. Take that with a grain of salt of course.

Can you explain why town needed those votes?

It was obvious that I was poking a bit of fun. I am partly doing this to see how other people react. I think I am allowed to do this this early in the game. It is part of the transition from RVS to scumhunting.

This feels very "I didn't screw up already, did I?". I also agree with Kop's assessment that AlwaysInnocent has been trying to look busy up to this point. Also interesting is that AlwaysInnocent took a five line Kop post as aggression when he made a few points but didn't vote.

I like Kop and Lowell so far. Kop might just be because I agree with his playstyle/theory so I'll try not to let that bias influence me too much. Actually, I'm liking Anen too, although I don't see any pigeons yet...

So, was dat een grapje, Yos? 

What?

Yos, have you played with Lucky before?

Not a fan of Lucky intentionally not playing, obviously. I'd be up for a wagon on him I think.

AlwaysInnocent, what do you mean when you say I "gave up on" you? I haven't decided you are definitely scum yet. I'm still trying to work that out. No reads are set in stone for me at this point.

Really, there was a lot more to the list then that. I can go into more detail if people really want, although I wasn't really planning to make a whole production of it this early, especally since this early my reads are likely to change before I finish making this post.

Yeah, I'd still like my question answered.

AlwaysInnocent seems too worried about roflcopter's read on him. Reminds me of when he called Kop aggressive. Bad vibes.

Can you tell me what the purpose of this post was Kmd? I feel like this post is made on the assumption that Lowell is town? If so, where has that read come from?

I mean, I am townreading Lowell but I was more pointing out that I feel he's wrong about your play. Basically, my focus there was on you, not him. He could be town who is wrong or scum making a bad point. Either way, I saw info that I disagree with and stated as much.

Huh? I can see it with Yos but I don't see where ABR is buddying me.

His back and forth with you after your RVS vote on him gave me that vibe.

I have to charge my phone before I read pages 7 and 8. Acryon, AlwaysInnocent, and Lucky are my top picks for scum right now. ABR would be on that list, but I always scum read him so I don't even know what is alignment indicitive for him anymore. I could probably be sold on Yos too but meh. Everyone else town or null so far. I feel like I should mention that my town read on shadow has weakened, but not to the point of being a scum read.

[Kmd4390]

What took you so long to vote Lucky? Why wait for somebody else to do it first?

Um. What? I was already considering him, by looking at the activity overview. Previously I voted Kop for his lack of contributions, which forced him out of his shell. Furthermore, Lucky said that he was going to take a backseat in the game, which I don't like. Being on a wagon greater than size 1 usually helps to push players to contribute more.

Second time you have done this in a short space of time. You seem to latch onto other people's thoughts/opinions whilst trying to make them look like your own. (The Lucky vote and now this sudden suspicion of Kmd which was previously nowhere to be found.)

Not really. I always find it at least a little strange when someone townreads me so early in the game. I didn't pay too much attention to it yet, since I prefer to see more posts before I actually start to seriously suspect someone. It is because of the ridiculous idea that KMD and me are scum buddies (based on what?) that I felt it was necessary to say something about KMD.

Also, you do know that Mafia is a social game, right? People influence each other and create wagons.

By the way, how can you be convinced by an empty one-liner about two players being scum buddies this early in the game? How does that make someone town?

Unvote, Vote AlwaysInnocent

^roflcopter, help me bus my buddy. Seriously, this post reeks:
1) As far as I can tell, AlwaysInnocent's biggest scumtell that is vote worthy is lurking, people who scumread him are scummy, and people who townread him are weird.
2) His feeling the need to say something about me feels like "caught for the wrong reasons". Although I understand if people who don't have my Role PM take it as a connection between us as well.
3) He is taking roflcopter so seriously. Like he has something to hide.

He threatened to shoot me this early if he were a vigilante, which is just reckless and bad play (if it was a serious and not just to threaten me).

No it's not.

kmd - Are you trying to buddy me in continuing to ask Yos about my placement on their list? If not, what are you trying to get out of it?

Nope. I'm trying to figure out if you are his scumbuddy if one of you flips scum later. At first, it seems like he could try sneaking you in there, if anything. But if he already had a scumbuddy on the list, maybe he wants to leave one off. Basically, you started the game similarly to those on his list and him not including you seemed off. It's nothing I'm putting much stock into now (except seeing if Yos has a genuine read on you and the rest of his list), but it's info I want in the thread for later in the game when we have flips.

Tex, in the first few pages, it helps to draw reactions out of people and make them more readable. For example, you jumping on my secret read looks town. You want more info. You aren't going "this looks bad lol, vote" and walking away. You also admitted you misread something. You look like town trying to find motivations and reasoning rather than scum skating by.

Oh, Rofl is voting AlwaysInnocent already? Thought he was still on me. *shrug*

Anen, have you played with scumABR or just townABR?

As for Day1 speculations, here's my opinion:

Best post in thread so far.

AlwaysInnocent's lurker hunt has easily gone to the point of being too calculated.

[Yosarian2]

Yeah, I'd still like my question answered.

If it's your question about my list, I'm pretty sure I've answered it about 10 times by now?

I made a list of people who had done something at that point in the game that made me think they were town. shaddowez did not make the list.

Do you disagree with my read? Was there some specific post of shaddowez that strikes you as especially townie?

[Kmd4390]

*shrug*

I dunno. I just thought that for someone who came out of the gate posting real points like the majority of those on your list, it would be enough to make it. Or if not, maybe a specific reason why not. Just throwing out "null" felt off and I was hoping for a little more, but it doesn't look like there is more so I don't think this discussion is going to go anywhere, unfortunately.

[Aneninen]

the reason this playstyle is effective is because scum freak right out when they can't figure out what they've done wrong

Or whenever they get scumread for silly or wrong reasons. (They're usually prepared for the *real* reasons for getting scumread – but often get confused when they can "talk themselves out" of things they have actually never done.)

I

think

roflcopter is town. I think it is hard to fake this kind of... well... bad play.

Townreading someone who's leading a wagon against us is a thing scums often do, hoping they can "appease" the player.

Never mind Lucky... I found someone better.
UNVOTE: Lucky
VOTE: Albert B.
Albert, come play with us.

Burying the fact that you'd joined so many wagon before this by adding this pressure-izing, although pointless vote.

No, it's not.

In my experence, town usually lose to semi-active scum who fly under the radar. That happens because people focus on attacking people who are loud, aggressive, and obnoxious, while ignoring people who are quiet and only just kind of contributing.

The best way to avoid that is, instead of only looking for scum tells, look for town tells, look for people who are acting like town. Make a list of them. Compare them to the list of the people playing the game. There will usually be a few people who aren't on your list of town people, and who you hadn't really even noticed were in the game and hadn't thought about until you made a list.

Those people are usually the scum.

Wrong.
TSO, RadiantCowbells, Tiershift, Farside, Jaqen, Aneninen.
I've seen very agressive scumplay from all of those players.

About Yosarian, in general. I can't decide whether he's scum and I can't talk about it because of [ongoing games], but I think he's someone whom could be investigated at Night – and that will clear everything.

[Aneninen]

Are you just voting any wagon gains momentum?
I don't think we're still in the transition of RVS–scumhunting.

I am voting for lurkers

atm

.

Oh, that underlined part...

^^
That!
BBT could be town, I guess. I know those "interrogative BBT-catchups".

It doesn't take much to convince you.

Or we know each others' gameplay quite well with BBT.

Fighting a lurker instead of an active player is a thing scums often do. (Actually I did the same in another C9 game. The first scum-game on MafiaScum ever.)

Because luring out lurkers certainly has no value, right?

Oh My Gods... good luck pressurizing ABR!

I like you Anen. Regarding me being a wagon-hopper, I tend to switch up my style based on what the town seems to need, especially D1. Take that with a grain of salt of course.

Can you explain why town needed those votes?

Hmmm... let me parrot that question!

1) As far as I can tell, AlwaysInnocent's biggest scumtell that is vote worthy is lurking, people who scumread him are scummy, and people who townread him are weird.

Here comes another parrot. (A clever parrot which could repeat the other points written there too.)

Anen, have you played with scumABR or just townABR?

No, I must admit I haven't played with scum-ABR. (I only know he did the same as here as town.) But, there may be investigation-PR(s) who, sooner or later, will try to sort him out, so...

[Albert B. Rampage]

AlwaysInnocent made a very good first impression on me the first time I encountered him. Recently, I'm not seeing the same spark. I invited him to join this game to play with the legends and the pros, but I'm doubting his alignment also. I'm fine with sticking with my Lucky vote for now.

[Albert B. Rampage]

It's way too early to talk about lurking. This isn't a blitz game.

[AlwaysInnocent]

AlwaysInnocent seems too worried about roflcopter's read on him.

No. I am not worried about his read. I am worried about his reckless call for other people to lynch me, being overconfident that I am scum (because he mistakenly believes that only scum will react in a certain way to his posts). That is what concerns (and annoys) me.

[acryon]

Don't have a lot of time so doing a quick read-through and just commenting on a few things that jumped out to me in one way or another.

Seriously, figuring out who looks townie and then lynching someone who doesn't is the single most effective way to find scum, especially early. People make the mistake of "looking for people doing something scummy", but that's backwards; scum usually look null-ish if they're at all competent. So instead you need to look for people who are doing something townie and then lynch someone who's not.

But shouldn't scum look like town if they are competent? I think D1 especially, town are just as likely to look null as scum.

Not getting a good vibe from his posting in general though.

You say this, but you only really commented on his statements about you, which makes it feel OMGUSy. What issues do you have with the other things he was saying? Or what's the "general" issue you have?

I don't think roflcopter is "super-town" by the way. His strong positions are based on very little. I wouldn't vote for him, but I'm not yet convinced he is town. He threatened to shoot me this early if he were a vigilante, which is just reckless and bad play (if it was a serious and not just to threaten me).

A little context here: rofl is an alt of a long-time poster. He uses the rofl alt when he wants to play with a certain playstyle; hyperagressive, short posts, bloodthirsty without explaining anything, lynches without warning. Basically the "baby jesus" or "internet stranger" playstyle, although probably half of you don't remember those players. And as a playstyle, it works well for him.

In that context, his posts so far look good to me.

I will say, though, that he can play like this as scum just as well, and he's very skilled at it, so while I have a town read on him at the moment, I very easily could be wrong, he is very tricksy.

So what is the point of even saying this if it means he could be either scum or town?

At this point it's the scummiest thing I've seen. I have no problem with vote jumping, but he doesn't seem to have put any reasoning into his votes, and is just latching onto the wagons that are forming.

Do you believe wagon hopping/forming wagons to have negative utility during RVS? If so, why?

Not at all, as it assists in forming patterns and making initial impressions of people both by what any individual is doing, along with reactions to those people. An argument could be made that it's townier than vote parking, but then people can just use that to try for meta.

Isn't this the reason you voted me? Actually looks someone asked you about it and you answered:

OK, then I'm not sure I understand your problem with Acryon's earlier play?

It wasn't the wagon hopping in particular, it was randomly jumping onto building wagons with no reasoning of his own.

Bad answer.

I

think

roflcopter is town. I think it is hard to fake this kind of... well... bad play.

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."

(Not saying that roflcopter is stupid. I think he is a smart guy, but his overconfidence causes stupidity in this case. He does not seem to consider the possibility that I am genuinely annoyed as town.)

Do you really believe that of someone who has been playing for 8 years?

I like you Anen. Regarding me being a wagon-hopper, I tend to switch up my style based on what the town seems to need, especially D1. Take that with a grain of salt of course.

Can you explain why town needed those votes?

Well I'm not going to pretend like my every single post and decision I ask myself "what does

this

town need?" But regarding my overall playstyle, if things are moving slowly I will try to speed them up. If it seems like RVS is dragging, I'll try to get us out. If things are going too fast and getting muddled, I'll play things a little more calmly rather than add to the noise. In this specific case, it seemed like the best course was to hop on some other votes, because this seemed like the type of group that may jump on things like that (which it was).

[acryon]

Also VOTE: Yosarian

[AlwaysInnocent]

Yes. Acryon, I believe that for now.

[Yosarian2]

But shouldn't scum look like town if they are competent? I think D1 especially, town are just as likely to look null as scum.

Looking town is a lot harder then looking null. Looking null, not doing things, is easy.

So what is the point of even saying this if it means he could be either scum or town?

Because it's information that I think will make it easier for people to read rofl, and will stop them from scum-reading him for things that are null or townish for him.

[Yosarian2]

Not getting a good vibe from his posting in general though.

You say this, but you only really commented on his statements about you, which makes it feel OMGUSy.

If I had a logical case against BBT, clearly I would have made it. My read on him was mostly gut, up until the point where he massivly over-reacted to my list in a way that looks pretty scummy.

Before that, eh. His attacking people for confirming in the same way felt kind of dodgy. His vote and then later unvote for ABR on wasn't great; I get the vote was probably random, but then removing for reason was eeehh. His post 16 gives me a bad vibe:

That is some top level psychological analysis.

You got me. Lynch me for I have sinned.

I got a worse vibe from him after he started posting content, which is unussal. His catch up post 142 was very, very wordy without really saying anything interesting, which is a bad sign.

Alright, I'm here and catching up. This is going to be a good game, I can feel it.

Lowell, BBT would do all of that as scum too.

Can you tell me what the purpose of this post was Kmd? I feel like this post is made on the assumption that Lowell is town? If so, where has that read come from?

hi, this is dumb. random chance says there is likely to be one scum in a group of four out of the thirteen players in this game, but your reason is bad.

vote: toffee

How dare you say my reasoning for finding scum on page 1 is both 'dumb' and 'bad'. That's the best damn page 1 reasoning you're ever likely to see.

Now, take that back.

So Toffee is scum?

Point of this post, AI?

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Kmd
super secret maybe scum read???

This looks like a serious vote Tex, can you walk me through it? What was scummy about Kmd keeping a read to himself?

Yeah, actually ABR replaced into a game for me where I was scum and killing it, and he came in guns blazing and totally blew it.

VOTE: Albert B Rampage

This looks like another RVS vote. If it is, why are you ignoring the fact that Kmd has stated he has placed a serious vote on you?

VOTE: Acryon

Serious vote. Jumped on the BBT wagon when it was gaining steam, then when people stopped talking about him and started voting ABR he joins in to do the same.

I like this vote but for different reasons. As stated above.

ANd then he flipped out about my "list" in a really irrational way, spending 3 posts talking about it and demanding that I be lynched. The fact that he reacted so badly to it just makes me think that I have his entire scum team on my naughty list, and he's upset that his whole scum team is getting coal this year.

[Lowell]

unvote

Anyway, turns out the key to avoid lynch is to stop talking. That certainly won't backfire.

VOTE: yos

I'm a fan of 209, and acryon as town.

[Yosarian2]

Why the hell do people keep voting for me? This is really getting stupid. I'm not sure if people are voting me because I'm actually scumhunting, or if people are voting me because God forboid a lot of my early-day 1 reads are gut (what the hell else couldthey be based on?) but nobody on this wagon has given any kind of reason for voting me. I mean, the only person who even tried to make a case was BBT, but he's probably scum.

Lowell, why is it that you said one thing about me that was 100% false, I proved it was 100% false, you didnt' respond, then you said another thing about me that was 100% wrong, I proved it was 100% wrong, and you then ingored both points and voted for me with no explanation?

I mean, if nobody else is going to try to actually play mafia this game, then I'll stop putting so much effort in, that's fine.

[AlwaysInnocent]

If Yosarian is town, then BBT might indeed be scum.

[roflcopter]

yos has your opinion of alwaysinnocent evolved at all since the last time you mentioned him? can you give me a more in depth explanation for why he is your top town read?

[Lowell]

If Yosarian is town, then BBT might indeed be scum.

Why? I don't see it. And are you saying you think yos is town, or not?

[AlwaysInnocent]

I don't know why he townreads me. For many people I seem to play scummy. Too many for all of them to be scum. So yeah. Don't know.

[roflcopter]

lowell please just vote for alwaysinnocent with me. seriously, we can lynch yos tomorrow. anen is right that he's investigation bait. i'm also nostalgic and want more than one game day of yosarian2 even if he's going to play the take-my-ball-and-go-home card.

[AlwaysInnocent]

If Yosarian is town, then BBT might indeed be scum.

Why? I don't see it. And are you saying you think yos is town, or not?

Nope. I don't know about Yosarian. It seems odd that he townreads me so easily. Almost as if he is buddying me.

But

if

he is town, then we should have a look at BBT.

[AlwaysInnocent]

lowell please just vote for alwaysinnocent with me. seriously, we can lynch yos tomorrow. anen is right that he's investigation bait. i'm also nostalgic and want more than one game day of yosarian2 even if he's going to play the take-my-ball-and-go-home card.

Stop being so foolish. It's going to lose us the game. Especially if you keep this up.

[Lowell]

lowell please just vote for alwaysinnocent with me. seriously, we can lynch yos tomorrow. anen is right that he's investigation bait. i'm also nostalgic and want more than one game day of yosarian2 even if he's going to play the take-my-ball-and-go-home card.

Stop being so foolish. It's going to lose us the game. Especially if you keep this up.

Just so I'm clear, here. yos thinks you're town and it's suspicious, and rofl thinks you're scum you seem pretty sure he's town?

[AlwaysInnocent]

Yes. That is how it is.