New York 180 (Endgame)

[T S O]

Who knows? Maybe NS was on me and I got shot.

[SilverWolf]

I still believe GM to be town.

[T S O]

why

[SilverWolf]

Because she played a lot like this in my only game with her when she was town.

[Aeronaut]

Catching up.

My biggest problem with elusive is her fade-out. She's become less active and less of a pusher, and seems to be trying more to blend in. Actual content in her posts has been decreasing since before her lack of posting and subsequent V/LA.

I get that she's on V/LA right now. That's not really the activity I'm talking about.

Yea, I see that a bit. I feel like this sort of applies to a lot of people, though. I think she's somebody to look back at a bit.

So dragon, I noticed once the pressure came off you, you haven't come back to post.

Aero-I still don't understand how you switched your vote when you were so set on dragon. It just doesn't make a lot of sense. At least give me a case on TSO. Is he aggressive as scum?

Dragon is still likely scum in my opinion. However, TSO's strange defense of Dragon needed attention, and honestly the more TSO posts the stranger it's starting to seem. He was this sure about FA yesterday, and was wrong. Today, he's still completely sure of himself about Marquis. You taking the time to re-evaulate your reads today got me thinking; Don't you think somebody that pushed so hard for something yesterday and was dead wrong would be rethinking and retooling his reads today? Or at least second guessing himself just a little bit? That's not what he's doing. He barely mentions yesterday's events and just moves on with a "Ok, Marquis is 100% scum" crusade. That should be bothering people more than it is.

And yes, he's extremely aggressive as scum, and pretty nonchalant as town. I don't always trust meta reads when it's that polar opposite, but with the way he's trying to moot that fact quite a bit makes me want to bring that aspect more into play.

VOTE: goodmorning

Let's go with this then.

VOTE: Aeronaut

VOTE: goodmorning

Okay, guess I'll just chill out right here then.

So if we don't lynch either of those two players, who do we lynch?

I propose Kitz. It will be fun, if nothing else.

This sequence of posting really is bothering me; This really just looks like you're voting people until something sticks. Especially the Kitz part. We're on day 5, and you propose lynching someone for "fun"?

I want to hear your actual opinion on Kitz. Is she scum, or is she town? Or are you just looking for a lynch?

What exactly am I agreeing/disagreeing with here? I don't really understand what you're asking.

Why do you think I'm calling Marquis scum? I didn't understand your response a bit back, and I don't think you understand me either - I'm trying to find the point where our views diverge.

... Are you not calling him scum?

GM is town, I'm pretty sure of it. Feel the same way about Ozgin.

I agree with this pretty much. I don't see a world where GM is scum this game, really.

Alright. I don't agree with oz, but Cheetory I see your reasoning behind. Kinda been wondering about him myself.

Why?

Because that whole sequence with TSO during last day phase is really off to me, and that's really bugging me. Tell me why again you think TSO isn't scum anymore?

@Cheeto: What part of my read progression are you not getting? I've explained all of that already.
I've also explained that killing Kitz would be grand because she keeps calling me mafia for little to nothing, and it seems like she keeps coming up with excuses to scumread me. She's been on about lynching me since day 1 and hasn't really ever gotten to it nor has she had any interest in questioning me.

Ok, this answers the question I asked above, however is there something bothering you about Kitz that doesn't have to do with you? Or is it only because she's scumreading you?

I think Marquis's townread on gm reads as kinda off and I'm probably going to be looking there for his partner after him because I think he's trying to psych me out by hard townreading his scumbuddy.

I thought for a while that Marquis, if he was doing this, would put more effort into making the read seem genuine/interactions etc., but then again he can't justify his goodmorning read and not justify the others, so it doesn't worry me like it kinda did for a while.

Why would he be so obvious about town reading his scum buddy?

From what I alone have seen of Goodmorning's opinions and play in this game, I feel as if they are pretty genuine. Take that as you will. I won't be lynching her.

-------------------------
@TSO

I'm finding it really hard to believe that you went from this

My theory is: the reason Nobody Special was kept alive until now was because scum didn't know about him. Once they figured it out, they shot him. It would not have been difficult to figure it out -

but this does make me feel better about goodmorning-town, given she knew for multiple days.

to this

I'm a little confused tso. Weren't you the one trying to persuade me that I was off on scum reading gm? Now you'll be looking into her after marquis if he flips scum?

When exactly did this happen? The last time I remember thinking abut goodmorning I was calling her null.

Please explain to me what changed in between these posts to make you go from "I feel pretty good about Goodmorning town" to suddenly "GM is null, because she's being apathetic"


I'm very weary of some of the Shinobi/TSO/Cheetory interactions with each other today. I really didn't like this post in which Shinobi accredits the interactions between Marquis, T S O, and himself as simple paranoia that stems out of "mutual respect" for each other. I feel is subtly implying that they're all town, and that people should look elsewhere. I also don't like his constant assertion that two people fighting in a game suddenly makes them town. Shinobi has been here long enough to know that that's not really the case, and it bothers me that he's trying to push that. Cheetory and T S O spent all of yesterday basically at war, and I really don't see how that has been doused so quickly. It's possible theatrics.

So, that's why I'm thinking a TSO lynch is better than dragon today. By lynching TSO today, we get more information than if we lynch Dragon. In my mind, if TSO flips scum, Cheetory will flip scum right along with him. And then Shinobi, while that theory may be a bit more tinfoil-hat, will be someone to look into tomorrow as well. As TSO said, we really only need one scum lynch, and it will blow this game wide open. I think TSO is that lynch for us today.

[Aeronaut]

Also, I found these two posts while looking through your posts today and yesterday. Can you clarify these things?

@TSO, as someone who knows your scumgame, that's not an accurate representation of yours.

It has been.

What do you mean by "it has been". It has been before? Or what?

Sorry, it's not my fault I'm getting scum lynched today.

Actually, it really is, but let's not discuss that right now.

Can you discuss this with us now?

[dragonspawn]

I still believe GM to be town.

I'm not 100% convinces she is town. But I still don't get the shifts in tso's read of her. She hasn't changed game play. At least not that I've noticed. Something feels off there. Not sure what it is yet though.

[Kitz]

I want to hear your actual opinion on Kitz. Is she scum,

or is she town?

Or are you just looking for a lynch?

"Hey Shinobi, you want to lynch Kitz. Do you townread her?"
Just found that a bit odd. Wouldn't it obviously mean no?

On another note, my poking on him with a stick seems to have grown into drama later on, is it normal for these reactions from him?

[Aeronaut]

I want to hear your actual opinion on Kitz. Is she scum,

or is she town?

Or are you just looking for a lynch?

"Hey Shinobi, you want to lynch Kitz. Do you townread her?"
Just found that a bit odd. Wouldn't it obviously mean no?

On another note, my poking on him with a stick seems to have grown into drama later on, is it normal for these reactions from him?

Well, the way the post was worded sort of seemed like Shinobi didn't have much of an opinion on you. Basically, "Let's lynch her just because."

[SilverWolf]

Here's the reason Shinobi gave for a Kitz lynch. Does it make sense to you guys?

I've also explained that killing Kitz would be grand because she keeps calling me mafia for little to nothing, and it seems like she keeps coming up with excuses to scumread me. She's been on about lynching me since day 1 and hasn't really ever gotten to it nor has she had any interest in questioning me.

[SilverWolf]

GM is town, I'm pretty sure of it. Feel the same way about Ozgin.

I agree with this pretty much. I don't see a world where GM is scum this game, really.

Me either. I'm with you on this read. I'm pretty much town on you and GM and to a lesser extent Ozgin and elusive (they need to post more). Shinobi and TSO I'm going to be honest and say I really can't figure out and may have to trust others with reading them. I do have some problems with some of the others for various reasons but I think I've touched on all of that already.

I won't let us NL so that is something to keep in mind in who I vote for as well.

TSO does indeed need to clear up some of his inconsistencies regarding his reads on GM and Marquis in particular.

[SilverWolf]

Also, the TSO-Shinobi-Marquis-Cheetory interactions all seem very, very dramatic. More so than is necessary to be honest and I don't know what to make of it.

[T S O]

Because she played a lot like this in my only game with her when she was town.

And you're ignoring Shinobi saying she also played exactly like this as scum because ...?

Your major flaw as a town player is that you don't re-evaluate your reads when you need to. Scum are going to punish you time and time again for it unless you address it. Try doing it now.

I am not asking you to scumread goodmorning because I say so. I am asking you to throw out any assumptions you have made about her, read her ISO and what I've said about her, and make your conclusion. There is no problem if you return to the same conclusion as before. However, I highly doubt you will.

Aero-I still don't understand how you switched your vote when you were so set on dragon. It just doesn't make a lot of sense. At least give me a case on TSO. Is he aggressive as scum?

Dragon is still likely scum in my opinion. However, TSO's strange defense of Dragon needed attention, and honestly the more TSO posts the stranger it's starting to seem. He was this sure about FA yesterday, and was wrong. Today, he's still completely sure of himself about Marquis. You taking the time to re-evaulate your reads today got me thinking; Don't you think somebody that pushed so hard for something yesterday and was dead wrong would be rethinking and retooling his reads today? Or at least second guessing himself just a little bit? That's not what he's doing. He barely mentions yesterday's events and just moves on with a "Ok, Marquis is 100% scum" crusade. That should be bothering people more than it is.

TSO hardpushes a townlynch d1, fakes insecurity d2, gets townread for it, wins the game.

Me being this confident is a sign of my fucking towngame, Aero. Not my scumgame. Read Masquerade. Read Faith Plus One. The difference between my scumgame and my towngame, which I don't think I've ever divulged to anyone, is posturing. As scum, I posture like fuck to make people townread for me. As town, I don't do that because I have zero interest in deceiving people. The difference between Marquis and I today is that I am pushing him as 100% scum and doing it confidently, while he is pushing me as 100% scum, but yet faking apathy. You should be reading us the other way around, given that one of us is faking our emotions and one of us is calling it exactly as we fucking see it.

And yes, he's extremely aggressive as scum, and pretty nonchalant as town. I don't always trust meta reads when it's that polar opposite, but with the way he's trying to moot that fact quite a bit makes me want to bring that aspect more into play.

I can completely break this statement in half if you want me to - suffice it to say my games are significantly more fluid than this, and I'd argue aggression, real aggression like I'm displaying right now, is emblematic of my towngame.

Focus on this game and don't try to second-guess my alignment based on previous meta - it has never worked for anyone with me.

What exactly am I agreeing/disagreeing with here? I don't really understand what you're asking.

Why do you think I'm calling Marquis scum? I didn't understand your response a bit back, and I don't think you understand me either - I'm trying to find the point where our views diverge.

... Are you not calling him scum?

Yes, Aero, I'm pretty blatantly doing that. This was an invite to SilverWolf to talk with me. She didn't seem to accept it.

GM is town, I'm pretty sure of it. Feel the same way about Ozgin.

I agree with this pretty much. I don't see a world where GM is scum this game, really.

Go back this up - this is going to be my response time and again to anyone who is townreading people based on them faking apathy. Marquis and goodmorning are doing it like champs right now and the only one not being duped by it seems to be me, and maybe Shinobi.

Alright. I don't agree with oz, but Cheetory I see your reasoning behind. Kinda been wondering about him myself.

Why?

Because that whole sequence with TSO during last day phase is really off to me, and that's really bugging me.

What exactly about it was off? He called me scum, I conclusively laid out why his reasoning made no sense, he re-assessed his reads like a good town player. That's why he's town.

I think Marquis's townread on gm reads as kinda off and I'm probably going to be looking there for his partner after him because I think he's trying to psych me out by hard townreading his scumbuddy.

I thought for a while that Marquis, if he was doing this, would put more effort into making the read seem genuine/interactions etc., but then again he can't justify his goodmorning read and not justify the others, so it doesn't worry me like it kinda did for a while.

Why would he be so obvious about town reading his scum buddy?

I said in the

exact same post

you quoted that he was attempting to play mind games with me by doing it. In fact, it was the paragraph directly underneath what you just quoted.

From what I alone have seen of Goodmorning's opinions and play in this game, I feel as if they are pretty genuine. Take that as you will. I won't be lynching her.

Go back it up.

I'm finding it really hard to believe that you went from this

My theory is: the reason Nobody Special was kept alive until now was because scum didn't know about him. Once they figured it out, they shot him. It would not have been difficult to figure it out -

but this does make me feel better about goodmorning-town, given she knew for multiple days.

to this

I'm a little confused tso. Weren't you the one trying to persuade me that I was off on scum reading gm? Now you'll be looking into her after marquis if he flips scum?

When exactly did this happen? The last time I remember thinking abut goodmorning I was calling her null.

Please explain to me what changed in between these posts to make you go from "I feel pretty good about Goodmorning town" to suddenly "GM is null, because she's being apathetic".

I answered this question before when dragonspawn asked me it - I am not in the business of repeating myself when there's scum I want dead.

So, that's why I'm thinking a TSO lynch is better than dragon today. By lynching TSO today, we get more information than if we lynch Dragon. In my mind, if TSO flips scum, Cheetory will flip scum right along with him. And then Shinobi, while that theory may be a bit more tinfoil-hat, will be someone to look into tomorrow as well. As TSO said, we really only need one scum lynch, and it will blow this game wide open. I think TSO is that lynch for us today.

Blah blah blah, dressing up a mislynch as an information lynch on day fucking 5 won't get you anywhere, Aeronaut.

[T S O]

I think Aeronaut's probably town for how he is coming at me, but it's no use receiving a green role PM if all you do is aid the reds.

[Aeronaut]

Will respond to everything else, but you forgot this.

Also, I found these two posts while looking through your posts today and yesterday. Can you clarify these things?

@TSO, as someone who knows your scumgame, that's not an accurate representation of yours.

It has been.

What do you mean by "it has been". It has been before? Or what?

Sorry, it's not my fault I'm getting scum lynched today.

Actually, it really is, but let's not discuss that right now.

Can you discuss this with us now?

[T S O]

@TSO, as someone who knows your scumgame, that's not an accurate representation of yours.

It has been.

What do you mean by "it has been". It has been before? Or what?

I said I have played like this as scum before:

He reminds me of me when I play scum sometimes, just chugging along and posting enough to get by, not attracting attention.

You said that's not how you've seen me play. I replied that I have used that playstyle effectively before. Aggression as scum isn't always effective. In fact, it's usually not that effective, given that site meta right now is to scumread it.

Sorry, it's not my fault I'm getting scum lynched today.

Actually, it really is, but let's not discuss that right now.

Can you discuss this with us now?

I don't know what you want to discuss - it's basically a joke?

[Marquis]

still think tso's scumgame is mostly aggro.

i don't really have much to say and i sorted reads out earlier. a lot of mine are gut particularly the gm townread.

shinobi, the problem i have with you is the specific stance you took toward me and tso- "i think we're all town paranoid of each other"- with a big part of that being how you inserted yourself into it. it pings really strongly just because it feels like you were trying to simultaneously half-heartedly calm things down, maybe as tso's partner, but also put yourself in a town statement when you didn't really have a place in it. i'm not really that paranoid of you, but naturally really paranoid of tso (and this time i think i'm right about it considering how his response to my suspicion of him isn't something i can as easily see from town!tso as i can from scum!tso)

[T S O]

Well, you would, because without it you have basically nothing left to push.

[dragonspawn]

Here's the reason Shinobi gave for a Kitz lynch. Does it make sense to you guys?

I've also explained that killing Kitz would be grand because she keeps calling me mafia for little to nothing, and it seems like she keeps coming up with excuses to scumread me. She's been on about lynching me since day 1 and hasn't really ever gotten to it nor has she had any interest in questioning me.

not to me. In fact shinobis behavior I'd making me second guess my read of him.

[SilverWolf]

I'd like to not lynch people who are trying to play. The apathy is killing this game and is perfect for scum. I realize some are on V/LA and are not included but still. I have no clue how to move this game forward at this point. I'm willing to listen to any ideas.

[T S O]

Yeah, that's why goodmorning and Marquis remain fantastic lynches.

[Marquis]

I disagree. I still think some of the louder/more active people, mainly TSO, are scum and kicking them out of the driver's seat and finally getting that scumflip will help with apathy. I'm pretty sure he's scum that's been controlling the game for a while and just

I'm mostly just sitting back because I hate arguing against people I think are scum. Well and arguing in general against people like TSO. I feel like I'm going to get drowned out no matter what so I'm just sitting here wanting him to flip scum already.

[T S O]

You don't have an argument, other than "hes playing to his scum meta gotcha", and "hes scum for thinking faq2 was scum just like I did". You're correct, you are going to get drowned out, because you don't really have anything relevant to say and I think people are finally beginning to see that.

[Marquis]

First is an added bonus, second is a misrep- pretty sure I've already said it's not that you thought FA_Q2 was scum, it's how you acted toward the lynch so aggressively without second-guessing once there was support for it in the form of my case. Judging from the 100 or so posts prior to that in your ISO, I see no mention of a scumread or any thoughts on FA_Q2, and a general lack of anything other than talking about ABR/Math, brushing off people scumreading you, and I think there was a post about you offering to lynch easy low content targets gm or Aero (I also noticed you gave gm "townpoints" for something I don't get before that so I'm a bit curious as to how and why things have changed there)

The main, core thing is a gut+meta read that you absolutely would not have attacked me like this if you were town. You know the caliber of my town game versus my scum game, and this feels almost exactly like the same way you shut me down and lynched me when my main scumread was you in N's game (as Cho). But of course the rest of town here who mostly don't know me and I suspect are newish or like to do things "by the book" won't really take that as reasoning. Which is fair enough.

All of your posts are also just attacking me for "not having an argument" and repeating things along the lines of "you're going to flip and you're going to flip red!!!" and at this stage I'd expect some sort of...

something

, really, that approaches the situation with a clear mindset that you're town. Like "I'm town and you're wrong" is simple enough but I don't remember seeing anything major like that that asserts your own alignment as least a small part of your responses. It's all defense through offense, which is to be expected from scum, or at the very least someone like you.

atm you just look like scum who's really pissed off at people agreeing with me for what you think are bullshit reasons because "gdi I've been so town I'm going to get caught by these idiots for shitty reasons" and I'm kind of loling at it tbh because I don't really care enough about this game to attempt to try and word my read in a way everyone can understand. I mean I already know I suck as town, particularly when it comes to articulating my thoughts on a strong read. I'd rather not be proved right on that again.

[Ozgin]

First is an added bonus, second is a misrep- pretty sure I've already said it's not that you thought FA_Q2 was scum, it's how you acted toward the lynch so aggressively without second-guessing once there was support for it in the form of my case. Judging from the 100 or so posts prior to that in your ISO, I see no mention of a scumread or any thoughts on FA_Q2, and a general lack of anything other than talking about ABR/Math, brushing off people scumreading you, and I think there was a post about you offering to lynch easy low content targets gm or Aero (I also noticed you gave gm "townpoints" for something I don't get before that so I'm a bit curious as to how and why things have changed there)

The main, core thing is a gut+meta read that you absolutely would not have attacked me like this if you were town. You know the caliber of my town game versus my scum game, and this feels almost exactly like the same way you shut me down and lynched me when my main scumread was you in N's game (as Cho). But of course the rest of town here who mostly don't know me and I suspect are newish or like to do things "by the book" won't really take that as reasoning. Which is fair enough.

All of your posts are also just attacking me for "not having an argument" and repeating things along the lines of "you're going to flip and you're going to flip red!!!" and at this stage I'd expect some sort of...

something

, really, that approaches the situation with a clear mindset that you're town. Like "I'm town and you're wrong" is simple enough but I don't remember seeing anything major like that that asserts your own alignment as least a small part of your responses. It's all defense through offense, which is to be expected from scum, or at the very least someone like you.

atm you just look like scum who's really pissed off at people agreeing with me for what you think are bullshit reasons because "gdi I've been so town I'm going to get caught by these idiots for shitty reasons" and I'm kind of loling at it tbh because I don't really care enough about this game to attempt to try and word my read in a way everyone can understand. I mean I already know I suck as town, particularly when it comes to articulating my thoughts on a strong read. I'd rather not be proved right on that again.

Probably my favorite response from either of the two (TSO/Marquis) in their back and forth. This is the most compelled I've felt this entire time against TSO.

Who knows? Maybe NS was on me and I got shot.

That's an oddly specific/random possibility you bring up. What possible reasons could you have to support anything having to do with you getting shot instead of NS?