Open 474 - Friends and Enemies - Game Over!

[borkjerfkin]

Hi kondi.

[Jennifer]

Welcome, Borkjerfkin.

Thoughts and possibly vote on Goodmorning would be appreciated.

My vote on her is because she put Josh at L-1 after he had been prodded, pages went by, and Josh never appeared again. I can't think of a town motivation for voting up an inactive slot, especially on Day 1, when we have a week left before deadline and plenty of scumhunting opportunities still.

My vote stayed on her because after our back and forth it seemed that she was not being consistent in her views of who she suspected, and I couldn't see anything in the thread that would explain the evolution of her thinking (namely shifting her vote to AA9 instead of Ven or Nic that she considered more scummy) It read more to me like scum trying to fake scumhunt than being genuine.

I did like her response yesterday though to my question about how she felt about sharing a wagon with multiple of her scum reads. And I'm considering whether I believe the rest of her responses. So the fresh eyes would definitely be appreciated.

She is claiming that she didn't realize he was inactive, but I'm still having a hard time believing that she wouldn't have noticed that, especially since she should have reviewed the thread/state of the game before placing her vote.

[borkjerfkin]

Did she vote Josh for something scummy or just for lurking? I'll ISO her first.

[ArcAngel9]

SCUM FOUND, PLEASE LYNCH THIS WOMAN!!!!!!!!!!!

SCUM FOUND, PLEASE LYNCH THIS WOMAN!!!!!!!!!!!

LOL, And whats your read on GM!!!

I could see gm as scum, and may end up voting her today.

I was just showing that quoting a post and saying "Oh this person is scum" means absolutely nothing.

I agree but that wasn't my intention.. it was the frustration.... I hate to see someone twisting my words!!!

[Jennifer]

Did she vote Josh for something scummy or just for lurking? I'll ISO her first.

In Post 271 she mentions things about him he found scummy, the last being his unvote in Post 175. But by the time she votes for him it's post #326 and her reason was 'he's no longer at L-1, so I can vote him.'

Josh's last post was #213 (which was before she did her wall of reads and called out #175 as the last post that bothered her) so voting for him 100 posts later since his last communication and 150 posts since he did something she found suspicious just seems... either opportunistic or lazy. Definitely not pro-town.

[borkjerfkin]

Well there is definitely nothing scummy about #175, so there's that.

And yeah, she voted him because she didn't want to quickhammer, which I'd call alignment neutral -- quickhammering puts heat on the person that does it, so not doing that is usually just smart.

Your assertion pretty much revolves around the fact that she is being opportunistic, NOT lazy. The two are not interchangeable, and if she's scum she had to realize that the guy wasn't getting hammered without being able to claim and therefore getting replaced, so I'm favoring lazy, and that's a towntell in my experience.

Your tone is dichotomous in #476 -- at one point you want my support on the wagon but at another you're still trying to figure GM out?

[Jennifer]

Your tone is dichotomous in #476 -- at one point you want my support on the wagon but at another you're still trying to figure GM out?

Yeah, that's because her response last night surprised me by coming off as genuine, so I'm reassessing my read on her. That said, I'm currently still leaning scum and if others read what I noticed about her behavior and also think it's scummy, then I want the vote. Either way, it's helpful to me to vet my thinking and gut check.

[borkjerfkin]

As of now, she's leaning town to me, and it would be stronger if I didn't vehemently disagree that #175 is a good reason to have been voting your slot at all.

[KX]

Forgive me if there are link substitute/secret tags, if so, I didn't see them. Anyway, link:
http://pokemon-online.eu/forums/showthr ... a-Postgame

First NOC ever. I'm currently in one other NOC as well, and there are a number of completed OCs which may provide information on that same site. In addition, I've read over something like 15 games from here and another site. So yeah, that's pretty much my experience with mafia.

Also, on the subject of GM, responding only to the reasons given in #476, I disagree with the first point, and so my main suspicion of them comes from the second, though I don't think I find it scummy to the extent jenn does, and the fourth point, which I don't see an explanation for.

[serrapaladin]

I'm inclined to believe both AA and GM are town, although the way they went after each other is slightly odd.

The Jacob wagon needs more votes. The certainty of his KX town read is off. His lack of scumreads doesn't look like his town-meta. Flipping from Josh being town to willing to hammer seems more 'careless scum' than town - 357 isn't a good justification and seems horribly fabricated (I mean come on, doing the mod a favor by hammering, who are you trying to fool?). Finally, his unvote on Jenn's replacement took too long.

Mehdi defending Jacob on grounds of "he's just town being silly, scum would play better than that" isn't cool either, but the rest of his game doesn't scream scum.

[PJ.]

Firstly,
UNVOTE:

Secondly don't really get what thus whole GM thing is, personally I haven't seen it but then again maybe need to read closer.

Jennifer's case on GM is that she isn't voting her top scum suspects and is bandwagoning

My reason for voting her is that she is moved her vote from a replacement slot to a lurker spot with no reason and started a string of scummy/anti-town post with the scum suspect list.

[Docteur Gudsight]

And panzer isn't the argument on cases just that it's a different way to push things? HD thought jacob was scum. He pushed by a case which generally has more weight attached. How is pushing his scum read like that scummy? The back and forth discussion you're saying is a problem never occurred (and I'd argue back and forths are the best way to really see people pressured and discuss things instead of just having them calmly comment).

~M

It's an anti-town way to push things at best. Of course it didn't happen, the guy who he made the case against was inactive.

All. 1 sentence each is enough.

And I thought it was directed to me but I gave my feelings on gm at the top of this page and bottom of last page. I don't think he's scum. Go iso him and he does have content.
~M

Having content =/= not scummy. All of the content is scummy.

I never said it was, but he was being pushed on not having any content so I was that attack reason was wrong.

And what's the difference between a case and a long fos? The reason it gets long is because it is a longer clearer argument for something. Reading walls won't kill people even if it had caused them.

But you still like the wagon on Jennifer? When half of the people are on both.

It's wagon motion not so much people for it. Seeing the wagon of a scum read dissipate onto a town lean doesn't really help the argument for gm to me.

That and you've never disliked a wagon without focusing on the specific people?

And the scum team has me and jennifer on it together? Although I'll say the venrob/jen connection is a nice thing to catch (serra + jen being the more connected pair still though).

@Jennifer (in order of things you said):

Is that really all you get from the defense? Or let's put it this way, do scum intentionally act scummy? Since that's basically what you're pushing. Forgetting your read on the biggest wagon of the day is very very unlikely and either he did it to be suspected partly or he didn't care about the suspicion and the lack of care is what makes him likely town for it.

I'm calling you out on the read since I think it doesn't really so much thought in actual scum motivation of it.

You quoted the question I'm thinking of.

"would you

ever

agree to lynch a town read"

That's the particular word if you want to get specific on it. The way that was said just implies you find it really unlikely to come from town and unless your gm read is stronger then it looks I'd expect a vote on jacob.

panzer AA's a lurker?

bork 201, 215, and 199 are the reasons for my current vote (with an added debate of jennifer's read on jacob implies a bigger scum read without a vote there) even if two parts of those posts aren't being followed by their creators.

~Mehdi

[Docteur Gudsight]

And bork why is your vote still on gm if you're leaning town on her now?

~M

[borkjerfkin]

On phone, but I would think the reason obvious - i never checked.

UNVOTE:

[Jennifer]

@GM

* Were there any posts by Josh after #175 (his last was #213) that contributed to your scum read on him?

* If you take both Josh & my posts together, where would you place my slot now?

(While I appreciate replacements being given a chance to come in and get engaged in the game, ultimately replacements do share the same role PM as their predecessors, much like the people in a hydra do--except I can't talk to mine or know why he did what he did. So for better or worse, Josh and I are linked this game.)

* Is it correct to state that your view is that AA9's actions made her become scummier in your eyes, and that's why she moved down the list, rather than you viewing Nic and Ven doing townier things and thus moving up your list?

[Jennifer]

@Hydra

Now you're just lying about your case. Why?

Yesterday, you claimed the question I asked that led you to think I should have had Jacob as a stronger scum lead as GM was:

@All Why has no one called them out on this behavior?

You said it was the

key post

.

Yet today, after I refuted that the question was referring only to Jacob, you're changing your tune and saying that you were focused on an entirely different question -- one you never mentioned in your case against me before. What gives?


For those who want a convenient side by side comparison (emphasis added):

In post 352, Jennifer wrote:

@All Why has no one called them out on this behavior?

Really that's the key post in it. The weight there sounds heavier then the gm scum read without lack of vote from her

if it's so major that it needs to be called out before.

You quoted the question I'm thinking of.

"would you ever agree to lynch a town read"

That's the particular word if you want to get specific on it.

The way that was said just implies you find it really unlikely to come from town and unless your gm read is stronger then it looks I'd expect a vote on jacob.

Stop tunneling and trying to force something that doesn't fit.

[Docteur Gudsight]

Honestly the argument is memory based so I did have to modify it a bit. I remembered the idea of it and the point has stayed the same. The read on jacob seems bigger then the scum read on gm.

~M

[Docteur Gudsight]

And is it bad to change the argument when you show part of it doesn't fit perfectly?

~M

[Jennifer]

@KX

Thanks for the link. I read through your game and have a better sense for you now and more of a town vibe. Would be interested to get an update from you on your scum reads/suspicions.

[Jennifer]

@Hydra

I don't particularly care if in a parallel universe you would have voted Jacob over GM with my reads. My bigger read was on GM. GM got my vote.

Change on its own isn't inherently bad. But how the change occurs can be depending.

You read like you already know what conclusion you want and are grasping at straws to try and build a case for that conclusion, rather than like you are actually analyzing evidence that comes to light and seeing what conclusion that leads you too.

[KX]

np, and I was actually thinking of doing that myself. Probably today or tomorrow, depending on when I get the time.

[Docteur Gudsight]

I can't have one read I'd stay on for awhile? At this point I feel most solid on all the josh stuff and with some disagreeable things to me from you I'll honestly not change my mind easily on this. I do re-read stuff (that's how more stuff for calling people scum occurs), but if it doesn't cause my opinion to change much I'll likely stick with the read. And honestly my goal is you lynched which involves calling you out on what you do scummy. Every scum has some things they do are town that if the goal was to PbP on you honestly I'm sure I'd have some nice comments. But overall I think you're likely scum so that's what I'll focus on expressing.

~M

[NicCage]

Venrob and Josh are equally scummy in my eyes, but Venrob has promised D2 activity. Josh hasn't provided anything of value in my eyes, and I don't think he plans on doing so.

I thought he was saying he'd be active day 3. If my one game previously has his playstyle right (though he's already made more posts this game than he did in the large normal I played with him that he managed to not get replaced in until day 3 or 4), he'll end up being replaced and probably a replacement will give us more content.
If you're basing your scum reads just on how much actual content someone is giving, ignoring that spencer is currently being replaced - where does he sit in your reads?

I'm not exactly sure what you're asking, but here's my answer. At the time I considered Josh and Venrob to be almost equally scummy, but I thought that since Josh seemed to be a more active poster that was still ignoring a lot of important arguments in the game. So Josh was my highest scum read and Venrob was second. However, things have changed quite a bit. Josh was replaced, so that means to me that he probably wasn't even checking the accusations against him. A big part of my vote on him had to do with the fact that he was ignoring the accusations against him. Now, he was most certainly playing for part of the time I was waiting on him to at least defend himself, but since I can't be sure of how much I'm just going to content myself with being very suspicious with his slot.

I was understanding you scumreads to be based mostly on active lurking, and was therefore wanting to know of what you thought of a slot that hadn't actually posted anything even close to resembling content. (venrob and josh had voted, that kind of resembles a form of content).

I don't know about this GM case though.
My gut screams scum at panzer

I guess this answers the question of your read of spencer then. Though did you actually have anything on that slot being panzer came in?[/quote]

Ah ok I get it now. No I had nothing on that slot. His only post was a little strange, but he said it was his first game. I couldn't really make a judgement based on that.

[NicCage]

Jennifer, What do you think of panzer?

[goodmorning]

@GM

* Were there any posts by Josh after #175 (his last was #213) that contributed to your scum read on him?

210 in a very minor capacity as a "too little too late" sort of thing; he answers three questions and ignores the growing wagon on him completely.

* If you take both Josh & my posts together, where would you place my slot now?

I'm still not quite sure how I feel about your posts, to be honest. I do tend to take too long to make my mind up.

Side note: calling the hydra Town, after deliberation of about a billion years.

* Is it correct to state that your view is that AA9's actions made her become scummier in your eyes, and that's why she moved down the list, rather than you viewing Nic and Ven doing townier things and thus moving up your list?

That is correct.