Newbie 1591 (Day 3)

[House]

HeyBox seem to making a lot of comments implying scumminess in multiple people.
@HeyBoxGaming Can you explain to me more why all these people are particularly suspicious?

Deflect off your wagon moar.

[House]

Anarchist just made a big push on saad, that's why I don't see him being Scum buddys with him.
My read was based on how when saad pleaded with somebody to hope of the wagon anarchist did not hesitate, almost like taking an order from another scum? sure, Its not a great scum read and that's why I was waiting for more. this whole saad situation made me rethink that.

Even if he was mafia, Getting his side lynched is the worse thing to do day one and we could (much later mind you) mass claim when there are only 3 of us left and our vote on the last scum would be inherently easy.

You're making a hell of a lot of assumptions, here.

1) There's a solid chance that we only have 1 PR.
2) There's also a solid chance that PR will be dead before MyLo.

This post is really bad.

[House]

Mid-tier

aka "players I'd like to cop"
Next is Box. I contrast Box with Beast: They are both MAX HYPE but Box seems legitimate and I don't get a bad vibe from his posts. He has not shied away from conversation. I would like to see more engagement with other players and questioning rather than an assertion that he is TOWN and TOWN IS GOOD.

So out of all the players, the

only one

you'd want to investigate is a player who "seems legitimate" and that you "don't get a bad vibe from his posts"?

Hell no. That's not town.

[House]

Mid-tier

aka "players I'd like to cop"
Next is Box. I contrast Box with Beast: They are both MAX HYPE but Box seems legitimate and I don't get a bad vibe from his posts. He has not shied away from conversation. I would like to see more engagement with other players and questioning rather than an assertion that he is TOWN and TOWN IS GOOD.

So out of all the players, the

only one

you'd want to investigate is a player who "seems legitimate" and that you "don't get a bad vibe from his posts"?

Hell no. That's not town.

Edit: I see Seraphim listed below that and actually agree with the reasoning behind it. That still doesn't explain why you'd want to investigate a player that sounds more like a town read than a null read.

[House]

If Beast was scum, why would he speculate who the roleblocker is?

I'll counter my predecessor's question with: Why would town assume that scum has a roleblocker?

[pablito]

Welcome House!

Looking at old posts that mention Saad...

First thing of notice. I always go back to this. HBG comments on saad while having a vote on bewilderbeast:

Saad is being oddly defensive and protective of beast...

I might need to rethink my reads... this is certainly interesting.

Will post more tomorrow as it is very late here.

In 133 Anarchist also comments on Saad while having recently unvoted off of bewilder. Both are just commenting on saad's posts about bewilder at that time. Neither comments seem scummy at the moment.

getting more of a town read now from saad

In #141 bewilder thanks saad for helping fend off some questions. Null read.

Sky's post in #151 is the next biggest thing (deleted non-saad material to save space and because it's just a long post that I cannot read well):

Spoiler:

@Anarchist

The reason I think Bewilderbeast is scum is because he strongly implied being scum buddies with Saad, twice! He asked about lying in one of his first posts, his content is erratic and his votes were highly reactionary. Beast hasn't really paid much attention to any player other than Saad. His last post appeared to be an admission of guilt, and then he seems to have checked out of the game (until just now). Saad has had no content prior to this, and since then has largely declared Bewilderbeast an innocent town despite offering no basis for this. The idea of a Bewilderbeast/Saad scum team is

very

compelling for me.

***

@Highspace

I'm confused by your random comments in 104 and 106. If you have something to say, say it. If you don't have anything to say, then don't pretend that you do.

I also asked you some very direct questions in my 78, specifically how you seem to change opinion on Saad in a very short space from 'mafia' to 'not mafia'. Could you please clarify this?

147
"lol" is not an appropriate response to a genuine question on wtf you are doing. You made weird comments that appear to be based on something but refused to clarify. Can you?

***

@Saad

also unvote from bewilderbeast please. he's an easy lynch and he is also town so please abort bandwagon.

Many, many players believe otherwise. Can you please explain why you're so confident Beast is town?

128

fast bw on him, his excited demeanor. he just seems eager to help and i think people are mis reading him. he is town, a villager townie i may add who is just excited about playing his first game of forum mafia

also the fact that you, (my scumread) has jumped onto this bw also makes me think he is town.

Five smileys is excessive. Excessive!!

Again, please explain your Beast town read.
I'm also super interested in your apparent scum read on Jake, since I don't recall you mentioning this previously. Why do you think Jake is scum?

***

@Seraphim

I haven't seen you participate in the discussion. There has been a lot going on and other than your comment that you like to play 'holistically' and that you were holding your scum read of Saad close to your chest, I have no clue what you think. Do you have any opinion on the current situation? Current read on Saad? Opinion about Beast? Reads on other players?

What I take from this post: Sky is putting the attention on the saad-bewilder pairing - asking others about why they believe saad to be towny and also what people think about saad defending bewilder. The next thing is something that confuses me.

bewilder then unvotes saad in his next post in #153.

In #156 Jake says saad has a crap scum read on him after saad highlighted a post on him. This begins a very long relationship between saad-Jake. This argument continues over what a "wagon" is.

However, the first person not named saad or Jake enters the fray and piles on saad. This was HBG about saad.

This is exactly what a scum buddy would say. Your being really defensive and its letting in on your act.

In fact this whole post reeks of scum.

1 you say not to trust the person who is having a scum read on you yet you have said nothing to counter the claims
2 You say beast will not die and that's a fact, a major suspect to be scum.
3 and you don't want us to plan our next kill in advance while we have as many active players as possible.

so, saad. have I misinterpreted something? Am I wrong? Because if so its in your best interest to prove me wrong

spoiler alert - saad's response is not much substance. saad continues to defend bewilder. So at this point, it's important to note that bewilder was up in votes, saad was not - saad had two votes. This was a huge moment when the momentum shifted. I think Jake holds a responsibility for opening up that opportunity by exploring more into saad's comments. I don't think that Jake was wrong at all to question those comments especially because a lot was directed at him. HBG had nothing to do with it at that moment yet chose to jump in. That is not necessarily a tell either way - it's just important to note.

Another person who had jumped in at that moment was HighSpace (replaced by pablito). HS comments on saad being scummy in initial posts, but does nothing to really establish nothing more than trying to refute the saad-bewilder pairing.

In #171, HBG links Anarchist with saad.

Later in #179, HBG votes saad. This makes a second vote on the wagon (coldwine was on it and bewilder had already unvoted at that time? coldwine's vote was from RVS).

In #188, Jake mentions the high possibility of either saad or bewilder being lynched. This continues focus on both.

In #207, HighSpace mentions that saad shouldn't be a possible lynch.

In #219, Jake pressures saad to make a vote.

saad responds by saying stuff about Jake which then starts the Jake-saad stuff again. But saad did not vote. Remember that saad later calls this a long con.

Again, when saad pressures Jake, HBG comments in #222. Call it coincidence though or something important to note. Jake later refutes arguments. This continues until we get to the all-saad-all-the-time-show.

saad then votes bewilder after having a town read all this time and it all goes to muck.
Later on in #271 Jake finally votes saad.

In #273 Seraphim mentions a saad/Highwine pair but does not vote saad.

In #277 bewilder mentions about saad completely defending bewilder to then voting bewilder (even though at that moment, saad was voting Jake.) No read as bewilder seems pretty out of it and hadn't yet fully read everything.

Seraphim votes saad in #287 asks for a claim. Jake also continues to pressure saad.

Sky finally mentions intent to vote in #310 and asks for a claim. Anarchist piles on to the wagon in #313. Later reasons in #314 seem to be a bit superficial and things I remember to have already been addressed at that time. I'd like to hear more from Anarchist on this.

because jake have been pushing hard on him... so he automatically gets a scum feel from him. I still get a scum read from saad for two reasons.
1. Like stated in the post above, he does not scum hunt at all.
2. He was squirming quite a bit with a very weak defense. And Jake had valid points.

Also, when he flipped and voted bewildered... big scum tell there. Thought he got Jake off his back, and tried to start a new wagon. He had a strong town read on bewildered, and didn't hesitate to suddenly go back on that when Jake decided to SR bewilder on inactivity.

Post #324 is when saad makes a significant post that changes the tone of everything. The next few posts afterward are what will get my most focus. Prior to this post, the votes on saad were: coldwine, HBG, Jake, Seraphim. Jake unvoted prior to 324.

Jake and bewilder claim it to be a good post, neither change vote status. Coldwine (RIP) immediately unvoted. Seraphim followed then right after - knowing that saad is town actually makes me sees Seraphim's unvote as a bit town. There was no additional benefit at that moment to unvote since it was only one other vote at that time. While Seraphim seemed very unmotivated and absent at that time, I'm not sure why I had any thoughts about Seraphim being scum earlier this day.

what is interesting is bewilder asking for pressure on saad right away. Sky furthers the idea of a Seraphim-Saad scum team and focuses more on Seraphim.

While most people called saad's #324 as nice, Anarchist calls it not good. I still think that the biggest distractors from looking outside of saad were Anarchist and bewilder. Those are my biggest

Fos: Anarchist and bewilder

right now.

[House]

Will work on this more later.

[Sky_Paladin]

I'd like to see the end of House's catch-up before I comment on it.

[House]

(Up to post 323)

Not really liking the way Anarchist is taking pot shots from the sidelines.

[House]

Whoa: pretty much everyone who was voting saad jumped off of him. I don't want to hammer him now, but some pressure could be helpful for revealing scumminess...

lol.. this is total scumposting.

[House]

bewilder has not posted enough recently that i can deem scummy so its faded back to null.

This doesn't make sense to me.

Have you not considered the possibility that bewilder might be scum floundering in the beginning of the game, and beginning to get his feet under him later on?

Just because later posts look better don't make earlier posts nonexistent.

[House]

I dismissed it due to there being no "scum" to "slip"

Surely you, from what i can see, a very logical thinking contributor must realise that "kill" in that instance was in context of lynch? especially when the post was all about lynching?

Word choice could have been improved but feel free to keep your vote on a miss-wording of a term.

Also make life easier on the mod by having vote on a separate line =)

That second line is the very essence of AtE.

Nice grammar hammer tell on the last line, too.

Terribad post.

[House]

Jake and Saad had a bit of an altercation, and

when Jake decided that bewilder is the right lynch, and not saad himself, he immediately jumped on that wagon. Why would he do that? Was bewildered not his absolute VT TR??

And then all of a sudden, when he stands to be lynched, "all this was just a massive test to catch the scum and the town". really? catch the scum? and catch the town?

I'm sorry, but I'm not buying his BS.

Anarchist, Saad also has chosen to not vote during other times even when pressure was high on Saad. What do you make of the previous times that Saad has chosen not to vote someone?

I don't read much into him not voting. I do read into the fact that he flipped on bewildered, and was prepared to lynch him, when he was defending him all this time.

tbh i dont know why he was defending him in the first place...

He was being FOS'ed by bewildered at the time. He was trying to win him over, by town reading him, hoping that the wagon will dissipate. Why would scum town read anyone? To buddy up of course. Especially if said town read is voting for him at that point.

Except he wasn't scum, was he?

What do you have to say about your post?

[House]

Lol, it is a confusing forum. As to your earlier question ("Why don't you vote Saad right now?"): Earlier I felt saad was very suspicious, but didn't want to hammer him at L-1. Now however, although he remains my biggest scum read, I remain uncertain on whether to vote him.

This is bad.

As town, our vote is our voice. It speaks far louder than a hundred wall posts. Pressuring suspects is how you clear or condemn them, and that means voting & interrogating them. Not sniping from the sidelines.

[House]

VOTE: saad

Voting because I felt like he thinks he got away.

@saad

Can you please explain why you wanted to lynch bewilderbeast after Jake said "it's the right lynch". Especially after your confident VT TR on him.

bewilder is the right lynch. hasn't posted in over 48 hours yet logged on last night. He has totally lurked himself into oblivion which OMG is what he said he was going to do.

bewilder is scum, sadly saad is proably town as much as that pains me to say. Last scum is probably highspace but the IC hasn't really impressed me either.

mod please prod bewilder

finally

UNVOTE:

VOTE: bewilderbeast

And what is this now?

Of course you are. You've been kicking and screaming since his wagon fell apart, and now you're throwing everything you can at him to get it back on.

[House]

What is your opinion on Seraphim?

At this point, I'm leaning towards believing that Saad's 'combeback post' was coached, and that this is why it seems so much more mature than the rest of his posts. I think that Seraphim is a good candidate for being his mentor, and it's possible that he's much more active in the scum thread than he is in the game thread. I think that the rest of Saad's posts are so sloppy and disorganized that it's hard to believe that he's been working on some complex reaction test for this entire DP.

Congrats, you're town. Moreso than Jake From State Farm.

[House]

At the moment, I'd prefer to lynch Seraphim, failing that Saad, failing that, BW. However I'm not really sure when, I started to get a better feeling about BW, so if we happen to rule out Saad/Sera for lynching for whatever reason I'd want to look around and consider other players rather than just wagoning BW.

I so want to lynch you for this.

So much.

You don't even know.

Fuck it, I'm voting.

VOTE: Sky Paladin

[House]

Calm your farm jake (proud of that one) no need to rush votes!

Can I be the first to say that i found the coldwine kill to be quite interesting, not killing the power players scares me. Makes me second guess who i trust, maybe that was there plan. I dont know.

I don't think seph to be scum, hes dodging sure, and even being idle to the extent that its bad for the game, but its too obvious to be scum play.

I dont like pablito/highspace, mainly because he went for an easy lych and even said "lets not let get bewilder of the hook" (paraphrasing) which is another easy lynch for him. Heck i would vouch my life on him continuing to focus on bewilder and I, using saads last words, as empty as they may be. to strengthen his argument on me. we will see how this day goes.
VOTE: pablito

You scold Jake for voting... then you... vote?

Talk about cogdis...

[House]

Also please not that the "dont rush votes" was part of the joke, As i made obvuise by voting pablito, i think voting straight away is fine

As long as you have a reason for it of course

Which you spotted and then attempted to cover.

Sorry, not buying that lame post.

[House]

if you recall towards the end of day 1 I was voting seraphim, which means I suspect him more than I do highspace. I need to re-read pablito's posts to see if they make sense, but for now when the IC is basically lurking through an entire day phase and providing little to no content, that worries me quite a bit.

Activity is not indicative of alignment.

Town lurks too, brah.

[House]

@Heyboxgaming

Saad's last instruction was literally to lynch you first x___x

Well to be honest I'm pretty surprised that both Jake and I are around. I kind of figured scum would take a shot at one of the SE or IC's since in the absence of roles, killing off a more experienced player is usually the way to go. That either suggests scum believed in a town doc (possibly, scum has a role blocker to believe this) or scum was fishing for a role. Coldwine...I don't think anybody was really town reading or scum reading him. Might have been something Coldwine said. I'll have to ISO him and see who he was scum reading.

That said, Seraphim failed to bring anything to the table day 1 despite repeatedly promising to do so, so he's my main scum read at the moment. Saad flipping town clears Bewilderbeast from any rolespec about Saad-BW apparently knowing each other's alignment, and also undoes my long suspicion that he had scum-slipped a team out. More to come.

Why would you be surprised that you're around? You're my top scumread.

Scum obviously wanted to get rid of a player that would never be lynched, and that's exactly what ColdWine was.

[House]

@Jake so FOS on Seraphim for inactivity, has me suspicious as well. How will your suspicion on him change, if he suddenly starts posting more regularly? I guess my question is, if you look at his posts in ISO, and don't take time between them/inactivity into account, do you still find him scummy?

yes I do

1. his reaction to saad getting put at L-1 was imo too cautious. 1. I don't like how he said if saad got lynched it would be unfortunate, which is kind of odd since he was voting saad for a semi-serious reason. 2. If he was a townie, i'd expect more anger or outrage from him towards bewil, instead he asked him why he thought it was a good idea to put him at L-1 which again just seems like he is being cautious, trying to look town

2. Post 49 Seraphim explains how he likes to play " try to engage with different players and force activity out of them to try and generate more material for accurate reads." yet i don't see that happening here and instead it's the opposite, he's the one who needs activity forced out of him

3. His vote on Highspace, some of the reasons he gave about him, could easily be applied to himself and others I don't think make much sense. "I also don't think he's been scumhunting or engaging with the game much" - seraphim is guilty of this. "seems more content to offer summaries of other people's play than provide content of his own." Up until this post he is making, seraphim hasn't really provided much content of his own

Things that don't make sense - "He's had a strange interaction with Anarchist which leaves me with a sour taste in my mouth." why was it strange? typically scum will throw stuff out like this and not explain it because they can't, they just have to kind of grasp at straws. "Anarchist's reaction seems pretty genuine but HS's initiation and subsequent response doesn't seem honest or accomplish anything. " How can he tell the difference between someone being honest or not or genuine or not? I agree the interaction between the 2 was weird but I can't gauge alignment out of either's responses/reactions and he didn't really do a good job convincing me he actually was able to.

Then he gives a list of reads at the end, which I personally can't stand and he doesn't really support them with anything game related. I do get a distinct feeling of a seraphim/anarchist team but without a scum flip, i'm not going to focus too much on that right now. I do find it odd though that it was you anarchist that asked about my seraphim vote.

Post 194 - his explanation as to why he is town reading townbox is very wordy and again he throws out that his posts feel genuine, but how does he determine if a player's posts are really genuine? I mean hell, as scum I make my posts very genuine in the fact that I basically attack the same things I would as I was town and I try to never lie which makes my posts come across genuine. So posts seeming genuine doesn't hold much water for me.

Additionally if he is really scum reading highspace, why isn't he trying to drum up support from others? He just seems content to vote park and let the whole saad/bewilder/jake/etc thing play out

I also don't like how he was kind of defending bewilder (at least saying my point against him wasn't good as he saw no scum motivation for it) yet when I pointed out that he went inactive he was all willing to forget that and at least give him a scum read for going inactive (at least that is how I interpret post 259)

Lastly i don't like how he basically showed up out of the blue and put saad at L-1 and then lied about site meta. When I called him out on that site meta part, he then tried to say it was because deadline was approaching however we still had like 5 or 6 days which is PLENTY of time imo.

lastly I don't like his reaction to sky's case on him. "your case shows you aren't really interested in finding scum so for that I'm not going to suspect you instead I'm going to call you town in hopes you don't push me any further" This is me giving my interpretation of how it reads. Here is the actual quote

Your case on me has proven that you are genuinely interested in hunting scum and not just sniping easy targets. It betrays a very public and town thinking persona. It is well thought-out even though for obvious reasons I completely disagree with its content. It is, in other words, very difficult perhaps impossible to fake. Hence, you are town. Which is good. I will work on responding to your points in due time.

So yeah I think if you ignore the inactivity, his posts don't look very town to me, I don't see any genuine scum hunting and and I see at least 2 opportunistic votes for lack of good reasoning.

And where were all these suspicions when these things were going on? Instead, you are trying to paint actions as scummy that you had no objections to when they were happening.

This suggests 1 of 2 things:

1) You're scum reaching for a mislynch, or
2) You're town confbiasing

[House]

Initial reads:

Jake from State Farm

pablito

Anarchist7
heyboxgaminig

bewilderbeast
Sky_Paladin

[Jake from State Farm]

And where were all these suspicions when these things were going on?

They were always there. Just didn't get around to posting them day 1. Day 2 I was asked a question so I iso'd him and posted all the things I had issues with.

All of them are valid criticisms though so I don't like how you are trying to brush them off as conf.bias or I'm scum.

[Jake from State Farm]

BTW, I don't even know what conf.bias means. I see people use it all the time, even been accused of it and I still can't wrap my head behind that concept.