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[Andresvmb]

@Mathblade, I’m around to answer any questions you may have. Having said that, I wouldn’t listen to anything either Datisi or I have to say, and just vote whatever it is you want to do. I feel you’ll be voting for me anyway, so instead of dragging it out perhaps just get on with it.

[Datisi]

VOTE: andres

either we get a very fun yelo or i get to yell at baltar for somehow clearing scum. win-win either way.

[MathBlade]

Clear

Gonna go to work.

Please cross vote and case each other. Please don’t yell repeatedly at each other.

[Andresvmb]

I’m much more civil than that. And for what it’s worth, I’ve enjoyed playing with you Datisi. I didn’t know you were capable of such a bus. It was pretty genius. I’m now totally fucked so I can at least praise solid Scum work.

[MathBlade]

I have an hour or so beforehand but I kinda expected to be dead and Ari live as IV+Ari was still possible but me and anyone else after the flip wasnt.

[Datisi]

i don't get to yell at baltar

casing someone who's barely been playing this game will be a bit difficult, but i will do my best.

pedit: likewise andres, i don't have any ill will towards you and don't plan to get into a shouting match with you. i will have to reveal your scumfuckery for what it is, though.

[Andresvmb]

I have an hour or so beforehand but I kinda expected to be dead and Ari live as IV+Ari was still possible but me and anyone else after the flip wasnt.

After the cross-vote and the game not being over like immediately, Aristeia was absolutely cleared. And well Math, you did say you would vote for me so I’m not surprised you’re here.

[Datisi]

pretty sure ari also said she thought you were iv's partner. the actual baller move here would've been killing me.

[Andresvmb]

pretty sure ari also said she thought you were iv's partner. the actual baller move here would've been killing me.

You’re funny.

[Datisi]

anyway, i am a bit busy currently (and by busy i mean i don't feel like writing cases at the moment), but i'll be getting to this tonight.

[MathBlade]

It’s more I won’t be voting right away.

I figure that y’all have prod dodge time to get a nice case on each other done. That way I don’t rush my decision.

[Andresvmb]

Btw I have to get through the work day, so I’ll be back later. Again, more than happy to answer any questions and I think I’ve read most of the game, but I’m a little ashamed at my play so haha the fact that I’m getting dragged here means I’ve sucked.

[MathBlade]

At this point I am more just gonna reread again and vote when I can so it’s more giving people a chance for a last case.

[Datisi]

i know you said to scumcase the other person, but i think it would be better if i showed both why i am town and why andres is scum.

1. koba has never misread me.

i am not exaggerating. this was their read on me on d1.

DATISI IS TOWN

vetoing any push on datisi until limlo ty

in games that date back a year or so where they were town, their reads on me were:

open 841:

My brief skim reveals that Datisi is likely town

this was a few minutes after they replaced in. now, their iso in this game is... 900+ posts, but even in mylo, after they reevaluated everything, this was their final readslist:

alyssa
datisi
catboi
____________
Skitter
SS

i was town. not only was i town, this was also one of my laziest towngames to date.

anything upick:

I hard townread datisi

i was town.

mini 2239:

but anyways im just gonna sheep kyouko in their in depth analysis so have fun if u are scum, game can be over already VOTE: Salsa :3

koba replaced into a town slot in a final 3 with me and salsa. it took them about 45 minutes to conclude i'm town and vote the other person.

mini 2226:

just townblock datisi, I, ari, chaos, and NM and we win gg ez
Titus maybe but i never can read her so im pensive abt it

i was town.

compared to the only game where they were town against scum-me (ignoring an old run of sass & brapnel where i was in a hydra with iconeum), mini 2195:

do you wanna say anything about it?

@rtp, i don't like being ignored.

I think you're a bit too complacent + just ur energy feels off from when I have seen you as town.

@rtp, i am correct to assume that you're getting to my 205, right? also interested in hearing why harumi is town.

ur whole energy is complacent - its not just 1 post its the way u present urself.

i cant just quote 1 post - its the whole collection of them that screams it to me.

right away they latched onto me as not having energy and not being my usual town-self. at the end of the day, they did out a poe that did not include me, but i'm fairly certain i've seen them say that they purposefully didn't include me to make me think they're townreading me so that they don't die (didn't work btw, read right through them and killed them asap)

2. andres has never misread me.

again, not an exaggeration.

mini 2246, my last scumgame:

I have Datisi and A50 as Scum so far. Ico is Town.

read me correctly on page fucking 3. which, btw, now that all of my other games are over, this was the last time i had rolled scum. so it's not like i had an opportunity to become a better scum player in the meantime.

mini 2201, my towngame?

I’ve only read the first ten pages again or so. Datisi is Town. So is Rathe.

I don’t feel like I want to shoot myself reading Datisi’s early takes. So they’re Town.

end of day, this was the top tier of their final readslist:

Lean Town
{Iconeum, Luca Blight, Datisi}

mini 2195, where i was scum?

Datisi - Haven't figured out how to read this one. I think he's generally quite towny, but other people don't? Not rlly sure what to think.

Who thinks Datisi is scummy?

It’s crossed my mind. They seem over-explainy to me so far.

Slight Lean Scum
{Elements, Datisi, Lunar Martian/midwaybear}

whoops i'm being scumread again.

the only game left is 2157 where i was town, but i was also a mason, and my play was extremely... fucky that game, and it was also our first game together. if my memory serves, he also townread me there, but anyway.

the only two posibilites here are (a) after not playing scum for a couple of months, i magically went from "being caught by andres on page 3" to "able to fool him thoughout the entire game up until yelo", or (b) andres is scum.

(i'm gonna post this now because i'm paranoid i'm gonna accidentally lose the post, but i have more things to say)

[Datisi]

my play on day 1:

i've said this a few times before, but i don't play scum with the notion of "do what i would do as town", i think that's idiotic. my m.o. is "do what makes other people think i'm town". even if i saw my buddy lapla shitting the thread with that frogster vote, i wouldn't vote him for it and bring all the attention to him. you know why? because it's likely the town will completely ignore that post if i don't bring attention to it! instead, i latch onto him, because...? i'm a piece of shit who wants to bus my partner out of the game on day one?

but alright. for the sake of argument, let's say i do that. what i then

don't

do is also push iv alongside lapla. because there's a very simple strategy when playing in a 3-person scumteam. bus one partner, buddy the other. the busee flips, you and buddy cruise to endgame. i've done it in 2169 (bus teacher, buddy bob, the only reason this game wasn't won was because of that fucking surprise vengeful in 5p) and 2195 (bus green, buddy dunn, win 5p).

if i decided to bus one of my buddies, i am going to make it such a bus that both me and the other scum look great off it. iv looked like shit after lapla's flip, and the only reason he didn't get flipped back in day 3 was because of the gunsmith claim.

---

my and andres's entrance on day 4, which was a 6p mylo. the other scum knew that they really *really* shouldn't no-yeet there because iv is going to look absolutely horrible after he survives the night. with that in mind:

though, now that i say it, probably not 100% that he's a *town* one... okay maybe we do no-lim here

which part of "maybe we do no-lim today to see if the obvious nightkill is going to happen" is angling for misyeeting iv today?

contrast with:

I’ll state the obvious - a No Execution here is not sensible. Due to the mechanical claims that we have, it doesn’t make sense to No Vote only to lose the remaining claimed PR left. We need IV’s voice to help guide our thinking.

iv's voice! iv, who hasn't done jack shit this game! that's whose voice we need!

then. here's the fun part, watch this. read page 183. you voted ari and think she's scum. iv voted ari. two more votes needed. house is saying he's gonna hammer ari (4555). andres is basically fucking begging me to vote for ari (4557, 4558). what am i doing? nothing! i'm standing there like an idiot, calling ari scum, but not voting! 4574, 4576, 4638, what is scumtisi doing? is scumtisi... once again cheering for no-yeet in 4713???

like, it's the part of the game where ending the day would mean victory, and standing around stalling means that there's a bigger and bigger chance someone changes their mind. not only that, i actively say that we might as well no yeet. (in the same post where i'm setting up ari/house, only to kill house afterwards?)

then. then fucking then, house fakeclaims again. math votes him (4781). i still keep calling him town. i threaten to ragevote him, but when it comes down to it, i vote no-yeet.

---

day 5. reread my iso from the first half of day 5, from around the 4th page of my iso. i keep egging it on how setup is weird if iv is town, how that means scum has a way of generating false clears, how house is the perfect person for scum!ari to bring into 5p. if i already said that ari was scum yesterday (but i didn't vote her because i was afraid that both andres and house were baiting), why am i trying to calm down the math/ari argument? why am i trying to divert your attention *towards* iv?

5415 is still a good point. iv said he'll sheep you at the time you were mostly talking about ari/house or ari/dats. you considered andres to be possible scum only as a traitor, but you always vote the main scum out first, so. and i'm pretty sure you were saying how andres was having really townie contributions that day.

also, 5416. like. lol. and to mention, if i'm trying to bus in 5p... i just bus in 5p. i don't do this nonsense of will-i won't-i.

and, what i said yesterday, i started feeling iv/andres were distancing once it was getting increasingly likely that iv was going to flip, but andres was already locked into his opinion of "iv is town because *radio static*" so they had to get some distance going. like, the questions that iv threw to andres (e.g. 5534) felt like nothing questions that go nowehre. and andres's "wow, even iv thinks i'm scum, so my input doesn't matter!!" line in 5510 feels... utterly misplaced? like, if you're town!andres, and you see town!iv about to get executed, why are you whining about iv seeing you as scum? shouldn't your priority be to get iv out of shit and get ari executed? like, it doesn't feel like somehing that naturally occurs to a townie in that position.

that's all i can think of off the top of my head that's important. if i think of / reread any other key events that i figure would help you, i'll make sure to let you know.

[MathBlade]

house is town

if house is fakeclaiming and willing to throw the game though and IV isn't really a mason ill be really pissed

\

Sending hugs to RTP

[MathBlade]

Do you have anything Andres?

Any case at all?

[Andresvmb]

Do you have anything Andres?

Any case at all?

You do know I don’t pay attention to this site 24/7 right? I presumed you would give me time to give you my thoughts since you’re literally not in a rush and there’s nothing you need to be worried about.

[Andresvmb]

I think I’ll start with refuting some of what Datisi has said, and then I’ll make a broader case.

[Andresvmb]

And I say some because I’m not going to sit here and argue against proficiency. The standard Datisi is setting seems somewhat unfair, particularly as it pertains to me, but if I have literally never gotten Datisi wrong before, there’s nothing I can say that can directly refute that fact. All I can point to is that (i) presuming that someone is infallible and should be trusted until the end of time seems like an impossible standard, and (ii) it can be easily weaponized. Now, we do know Koba was Town, and I do trust Koba’s reads the vast majority of the Town, but Datisi is also arguing that Koba should have guessed the entire Scum Team D1 and from your POV, you already know that’s an impossible standard (since Koba by definition was wrong about one of us).

That’s ignoring the fact that Koba did say not to execute Datisi until ELo, but I don’t want to presume that they should be Scum should they be alive this long.

[Andresvmb]

^vast majority of the time*

[Andresvmb]

There’s no effective distinction between “what I would do as Town” and “what others think I would do as Town”. In both cases, you’re projecting what you think you do as Town to achieve your ultimate objective of winning the game. If Datisi was going to fool a group of strong players in Koba / VPB / Something_Smart / Aristeia and so on, then do you really think they could afford to not bus their teammate that was shitting the bed? Datisi is arguing that they didn’t have to highlight the fact that their teammate’s posts were overly Scummy and obvious, but Koba was also onto Laplacian very quickly for example - you probably couldn’t get away with not distancing early. At least that’s my take on it. It’s obviously a beautiful tactic that has given them enough credibility to last this long, but it’s nothing more than that.

I would agree with the general statement that IV did not need to be pushed to be made to look bad next to Laplacian, but they’re taking responsibility for something they themselves did not drive. And you can clearly see that with posts like 695 and 738. You’re telling me they were pushing their buddy at the same time as they were pushing Laplacian? Or is it really circumstance driven? Because 1153 or 1197 is what a secondary push from Datisi looks like to me. Also, look at the positioning of slots in 1209. The point is clear - Datisi is taking way too much credit for something that clearly did not happen.

[Andresvmb]

Now, there’s a lot of bashing of my mechanical sense in Days 4 and 5, but you know this is unfair because you yourself had reached some of the same conclusions independently! And you are obviously coming at it from a Town mindset. So having reached the wrong conclusion does not equate to Scum motivation. And sure, I was wrong about IV being mechanically cleared. That’s very obvious. But it was not unreasonable. I think I should have been more critical once IV was still alive in D5. I think that’s a fair criticism and I think this is going to cost us the game. But arguing that we should not have No Eliminated D4 with the information we had at the time does not make me Scum. That’s preposterous and it’s a really reachy argument. In the vast majority of circumstances, that would have been wrong. And I was playing large percentages there.

[Andresvmb]

The whole IV and I were trying to get some distancing going is not a good argument, because I could turn around and make the same argument about Datisi and IV. Datisi spent a lot of time making mechanical arguments against IV, bashing their play in response to arguments made by Aristeia (and there are countless examples of this), but never bothered to put a vote down for IV. Why? If they were so sure the whole time that IV was Scum and mechanically they never made sense and all of Aristeia’s arguments were valid, why no votes in that direction? Where is the real conviction? It shows that Datisi was eager to play the game but was waiting to capitalize on an error that never came. I think this is the biggest clue we have about it.

[Andresvmb]

Anyway it’s late and I need to sleep but I will continue diving into this tomorrow.