Newbie 1726 (Game Over)

[Zorblag]

@innocentvillager, I haven't actually looked at Jaack's interactions with anyone else yet as I'm not particularly trying to find the scum team so much as at least one scum right now. The problem with Jaack and RachMarie is that it just stands out so strongly as Jaack distancing from RachMarie without bothering with a vote, and then going in with the chainsaw when I changed my vote to her day one. Oh, and not showing up at the end of day one to get her lynched instead of Gratuitous who he claims he was PR reading after the fact despite being on to do so. Town should have at a bare minimum cast that vote to lynch someone they think is scum over someone they think is a PR when either lynch could still happen towards the end of the day.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[RachMarie]

hmm will take a closer look at jaack that is a good point Troll

uggh Im almost done folks and sigh may not get more work from this guy keep your fingers crossed hes wowed enough by the report to accept it being late and all and gives me more work

[Jaack]

A bit of time to post some more ketchup

@Jaack, my vote yesterday was largely as you describe. Your case on why foedufafa was town was unimpressive, RachMarie's claim that Nachomamma8 had a case was nonsense, and then when Nachomamma8 made his case against foedufafa it struck me as mostly overinflated. My personal read based on the answers that foedufafa gave was a slight town read. The reason that I changed my vote when I did was that I was more convinced at the time that RachMarie would flip town than I was that foedufafa would. Given the timing and activity those were the two viable lynches; I went with the least bad one as, despite what innocentvillager is saying here, that's the better move day two given the information gains.

What were your feelings about RachMarie at the end of the day. You've very consistently had her at the top of your scum pile (and are looking at potential partnerships with her now.) The one thing you seemed to have against foedufafa was Post 391. Could you go into more detail on why that was more damning than all the play that you'd seen from RachMarie which you'd disliked up to there?

As far as your explination, it's fair enough. My only lingering question is, in a perfect world, what lynch would you have desired at the end of D2? Because for most of the end of D2, you weren't advocating lynch options.

With Rach, there's been stuff I haven't liked, but there has also been content I didn't think made a whole lot of sense coming from scum, specifically he reads in about the middle of D2, when she basically townread everyone but IV and only scumread him based on PoE. I didn't think that made much sense coming from scum, who I figured would have more of a plan on who they wanted to mislynch. That being said, that logic breaks down a bit with how quick she turned on foe when that became an option.

As for foe, I thought that 391 was the scummiest post in the entire game, and his resulting discussion of his IV 'read' was, well, not exactly townie looking either. There was nothing quite as damning with Rach's play, so it made foe a preferable lynch.

@IV - Who was your prefered lynch option at the end of D2. You've walked back your ecane suspicion, you townread Rach at the end of the day, and you were obviously against the foe lynch. Zorblag? Me? Foxbird?

[Nachomamma8]

The foe townread was real. How is that not a mod slip? I didn't want to townread ecane based off of that, but the fact is, I noticed it, and it gave him significant townpoints. I'm not going to try to use a modslip to compromise the integrity of a mafia game, regardless of how town it made foe. I didn't want you guys to lynch him but honestly the only thing I could townread him off of otherwise was gut. And maybe that was confbiased by knowing foe was probably town via something else. So I kept quiet.

Yelling at us for lynching him when the only reasons you had for townreading him were poor angleshooty ones (I've replaced into plenty of scum slots, and I don't think I've ever had night deadline extended for me a single time) is a bit... weird? hypocritical? Not sure what word in particular I'm seeking here, but don't really know what you're trying to accomplish with this line of thought.

[Nachomamma8]

This post implies pretty strongly that she probably protected Zorblag from the kill Night 1; the most likely result of No Lynching at this point in time that I can see is probably scumteams killing Zorblag. If Zorblag is scum, one odd kill would not be enough to catch him, especially when he'd have the opportunity to shoot the player likeliest to vote him.

If this is true, this makes me further think that Zorblag is scum.

Zorblag would not have been the target; Caston was too scummy, plus me and Jaack were suspecting him.

ECANE should have been the target. Unless scum actually bought my gambit lol (I'm now less impressed with my ability to gambit on obvtownies).

I can maybe see newbtown fearkilling Zorblag, but I don't think his reads were so substantially right that it was a necessary kill.

Well, depends on the game state.

Rach, me, Foxbird were all townreading Zorblag.
You, Jaack were scumreading Foxbird.

A world where there is scum in you/Jaack is a world where Zorblag is a completely reasonable kill, whereas if there's more scum in me/Rach/Foxbird then it's unreasonable. I don't think that anything that Caston did is worthy of being carried over into Day 3 and it's barely worthy of being carried into the end of Day 1.

[RachMarie]

ok I am wiped finally got the report to the client, Im gonna hit this game tomorrow. and get ready to rumble

[innocentvillager]

Yelling at us for lynching him when the only reasons you had for townreading him were poor angleshooty ones (I've replaced into plenty of scum slots, and I don't think I've ever had night deadline extended for me a single time) is a bit... weird? hypocritical? Not sure what word in particular I'm seeking here, but don't really know what you're trying to accomplish with this line of thought.

You've replaced into lots of scum slots DURING the end of the night phase? It just doesn't seem fair at all to not let scum talk during the night and have one person decide kill by themselves. When I replace in the middle of the night, deadline is usually delayed for that reason (although, it's only happened like twice if I can recall correctly), regardless of my alignment.

Anyway, this was long past. What are you trying to accomplish with this question?

And when are you going to respond to my post that I've tried to get you to respond to like 2-3 times??

[innocentvillager]

@IV - Who was your prefered lynch option at the end of D2. You've walked back your ecane suspicion, you townread Rach at the end of the day, and you were obviously against the foe lynch. Zorblag? Me? Foxbird?

This is a good question, and tbh, I didn't know. I liked Nacho's case for town-Rach, so me being all for a Rach lynch was suddenly dissolved.

I never suspected ecane, ever. Lol.

I would've been fine with any of you/Zorb/Foxbird, but I didn't know who or why so I didn't push. Also, an NL was not a bad option at that point, since we would just get the ML later, so I didn't really see any priority in pushing a lynch. Ecane was almost certainly going to die anyway.

I could've tried to stop the foe lynch, but honestly there was not much else I could've said. I said my reasoning why, most of you thought it was a "poor angleshooty reason", so there's not much else I can do to stall such a lynch.

[innocentvillager]

I really think scum is in Nacho/Jaack/Foxbird. Rach and Zorb are looking townier.

[innocentvillager]

Also, V/LA until August 27th, I have college move-in among various seminars I need to attend.

I'll still try to post a couple of times in that period though.

[Jaack]

@IV - Who was your prefered lynch option at the end of D2. You've walked back your ecane suspicion, you townread Rach at the end of the day, and you were obviously against the foe lynch. Zorblag? Me? Foxbird?

This is a good question, and tbh, I didn't know. I liked Nacho's case for town-Rach, so me being all for a Rach lynch was suddenly dissolved.

I never suspected ecane, ever. Lol.

I would've been fine with any of you/Zorb/Foxbird, but I didn't know who or why so I didn't push. Also, an NL was not a bad option at that point, since we would just get the ML later, so I didn't really see any priority in pushing a lynch. Ecane was almost certainly going to die anyway.

I could've tried to stop the foe lynch, but honestly there was not much else I could've said. I said my reasoning why, most of you thought it was a "poor angleshooty reason", so there's not much else I can do to stall such a lynch.

I don't really understand your approach here at all.

You were fine with a number of lynch options, but not with the two options prefered by town. Okay. Then why spend your time voting ecane, when not only did you already assume she was almost certainly going to die, but had already tried and explained your reasoning for the same trick with the same player earlier that day?

That being said, I stil think you're probably town because of things I described D2, but this is pretty ridiculous.

Going to finish up rereading IV and share some thoughts.

[Jaack]

Okay, I'm pretty sure that exactly one of IV or Zorblag is scum.

At the end of D1 and early D2, I was in a Zorblag deathtunnel mindset and the only person to join me on that wagon was IV. Which means if Zorblag, IV, and I are all town that means no scum took interest in two townies leading a mislynch. That seems rather unlikely to me.

Now that I'm mentally running scenarios, looking at this agnostically (as in, if I didn't know my own alignment) I could be the scum in this scenario, so I'll play out all the hypotheticals for posterity.

1. Zorblag is scum; IV and I are town:
This works. The other scum wouldn't necessarily bus in this scenario since Zorblag's lynch wasn't inevitable or even particularly likely yet. To many others were hard reading him town.

2. IV is scum; Zorblag and I are town
This works. IV would be trying to take advantage of my tunnel.

3. I'm scum; Zorblag and IV are town.
This works, although I would generally expect that the scum on a two person wagon would be the second person, particularly since IV had said that he didn't think my case on Zorblag was super strong.

4. Zorblag and IV are scum; I am town
This doesn't work all that great. Their back in forth D2 doesn't read SvS to me at all. Although I guess it would explain why their scumreads on each other faded as the day went on, I don't see crossbussing making too much sense in this scenario.

5. Zorblag and I are scum; IV is town
This actually makes a little sense now that I'm considering it lol. Zorblag had the townreads to survive a planned attack from me. This is something we could have planned. It's not accurate because I'm not scum, but I can construct a good narrative here.

6. IV and I are scum; Zorblag is town
This does not make a lick of sense. If Zorblag were our hypothetical nk target, there's no way we would have tried to push his lynch like that the next day without some town cooperation or previous coordination. And if he wasn't our nk target, then why would we have been so desperate to lynch him the next day.

So I guess I've ruled out Zorblag/IV as the scum team, and sort of inadvertantly ruled out foxbird/rach as well.

Going to think on this more.

[Foxbird]

Okay, I'm pretty sure that exactly one of IV or Zorblag is scum.

At the end of D1 and early D2, I was in a Zorblag deathtunnel mindset and the only person to join me on that wagon was IV. Which means if Zorblag, IV, and I are all town that means no scum took interest in two townies leading a mislynch. That seems rather unlikely to me.

Now that I'm mentally running scenarios, looking at this agnostically (as in, if I didn't know my own alignment) I could be the scum in this scenario, so I'll play out all the hypotheticals for posterity.

1. Zorblag is scum; IV and I are town:
This works. The other scum wouldn't necessarily bus in this scenario since Zorblag's lynch wasn't inevitable or even particularly likely yet. To many others were hard reading him town.

2. IV is scum; Zorblag and I are town
This works. IV would be trying to take advantage of my tunnel.

3. I'm scum; Zorblag and IV are town.
This works, although I would generally expect that the scum on a two person wagon would be the second person, particularly since IV had said that he didn't think my case on Zorblag was super strong.

4. Zorblag and IV are scum; I am town
This doesn't work all that great. Their back in forth D2 doesn't read SvS to me at all. Although I guess it would explain why their scumreads on each other faded as the day went on, I don't see crossbussing making too much sense in this scenario.

5. Zorblag and I are scum; IV is town
This actually makes a little sense now that I'm considering it lol. Zorblag had the townreads to survive a planned attack from me. This is something we could have planned. It's not accurate because I'm not scum, but I can construct a good narrative here.

6. IV and I are scum; Zorblag is town
This does not make a lick of sense. If Zorblag were our hypothetical nk target, there's no way we would have tried to push his lynch like that the next day without some town cooperation or previous coordination. And if he wasn't our nk target, then why would we have been so desperate to lynch him the next day.

So I guess I've ruled out Zorblag/IV as the scum team, and sort of inadvertantly ruled out foxbird/rach as well.

Going to think on this more.

Can you explain how that explanation rules out Rach and me?

[Jaack]

One of IV and Zorblag has to be scum. Therefore you and rach can't be a team together.

This also means that one of you is almost certainly scum, with a very slim chance it's nacho.

I'll have to re-check connections and the like to see the most likely candidate.

[RachMarie]

of those two my bet is on inno

I still have troll (zorblag) and nacho as my top town reads

[innocentvillager]

not so slim chance it's nacho.

FTFY

[innocentvillager]

VOTE: Foxbird

[Foxbird]

One of IV and Zorblag has to be scum. Therefore you and rach can't be a team together.

This also means that one of you is almost certainly scum, with a very slim chance it's nacho.

I'll have to re-check connections and the like to see the most likely candidate.

Oh, I read that wrong. I thought you meant we'd both be cleared as scum entirely, which would be a very strange thing to say.

[innocentvillager]

You were fine with a number of lynch options, but not with the two options prefered by town. Okay. Then why spend your time voting ecane, when not only did you already assume she was almost certainly going to die, but had already tried and explained your reasoning for the same trick with the same player earlier that day?

It was a last ditch attempt. I didn't think it was going to work, but maybe it would work. It was possible that mafia wouldn't think I would do the same thing twice out of like WIFOM or some shit.

What was my alternative? I didn't have a strong case on anyone else, nor were they either the two lynch targets I opposed.

[Zorblag]

I'm just done grading my summer classes for a deadline early tomorrow and should be able to get a post in tomorrow afternoon addressing a couple things. I will say for now that I'm not at all sold on the Foxbird lynch for today. Jaack, for all that I might disagree about other things, is right that we shouldn't have all town in him, me and innocentvillager and I'd like to look at a couple things along those lines.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zaicon]

Vote Count 3.2

Foxbird (1):

innocentvillager

No Vote (5):

Foxbird, Jaack, Nachomamma8, RachMarie, Zorblag

With 6 alive, it takes 4 to lynch!

Deadline is Tuesday, August 30, 2016 at 4:00 PM CST, which is in (expired on 2016-08-30 16:00:00).

V/LA - innocentvillager

[innocentvillager]

Idk I think it's definitely possible we are all town. I'm town reading both of you (jaack to a lesser extent) and there were 8 people (with 5 to lynch) so it's possible scum were just watching to see what would happen since it looked like we were all hard on each other. They could've gotten annoyed when tensions between us gradually dissolved.

[Nachomamma8]

And when are you going to respond to my post that I've tried to get you to respond to like 2-3 times??

If it seems like I haven't responded to everything when I've been posting, it's because I haven't responding to everything when I've been posting.

[Nachomamma8]

How am I suddenly higher on your shit list from last night to now?? What the fuck happened?

Foe flipped town; I'm more on edge about everyone as a result. Do you think this is an unreasonable approach to take? Was this an unexpected approach to take?

First of all, ecane dying was obvious and we were all fucked once ecane basically PR claimed. Ecane probably would've been killed regardless unless both scum are oblivious to this game.

I don't know why you're bringing this up.

Second, I didn't want foe lynched and hard townread him but all you guys were like "OMG lynch foe". Not only was he strong town from Zaicon's "slip" (I didn't want to use that as a tell so I didn't bring it up again), but he looked like very strong newbtown. Granted I didn't push this as much D3 as I should've since I was focused on other stuff, but still. And even if you don't townread me for it, at least you shouldn't be scumreading me for it lmao.

I don't understand why you're bringing this up either, or why you want me to comment on it specifically.

I don't know if I like you for town anymore, especially since I just realized JK/VT/Goon is a viable setup too. You should definitely explain why "you feel worse about me today than yesterday" if I have done nothing scummy since last night.

I only see scum-motivation for this. It looks like you could be setting me up to get lynched later today by casting doubt on me, and then playing up towncred by telling Rach to "not vote yet", but you're still setting the stage to ML on me. It feels like you're riding Rach's suspicions here. I might've mistakenly townread you earlier just because I agree with a lot of stuff you say, but I suppose even somewhat skilled scum can do that when they're trying to analyze the game from a "town perspective".

My exact progression began with "I don't really know where my reads stand today" to Rach asking me how I felt about you to answering that I felt worse than I felt yesterday, which is a non-answer. This whole thing looks like an overreaction unless you expected me to get to LyLo with two dead suspects flipped town and remain comfortable in my strong townreads.

Nacho, what was the motivation behind claiming BP so early?

This isn't really a good discussion to have now; I'll leave an answer in the confessional PT for you if you'd like.

[innocentvillager]

K I'm satisfied with that response