Open 177 (Monks and Masons) - Game Over.

[Benmage]

? dont i want an advantage if i end up being scum...?

It's an unfair advantage which isn't part of the normal game rules. You're supposed to respect the game and not give yourself unfair advantages.
Seriously. Stop posting.

Oh well i could've just not read my role pm..and continued posting..anyways I did read it.

Hayl deleted my posts but luckily i got the info ands its fine if i repost em...i didnt think there'd be harm. Mybad.

[Benmage]

Sorry i broke rules.. that wasn't my attention. Here's what was deleted, nothing to special since i'm only caught up to page 4:

Here's what i got:

Chronological read of the thread and breakdown of thoughts/comments/notes taken while reading the whole thread in its entirety written in Word(this is for both my benefit and hopefully yours/the game(sorry if my note taking is scattered)(gonna be extra detailed for you and so after I read the thread I can reread my own notes and grasp how I felt..because my brain will probably be mush after this read)):

Intro read is nice. Haylen put a lot of work into this…poor hayl.

Uhoh General Rule #1.

Set-up…I don’t wanna try outguessing the mod, but the flavor makes it appear as if theres 2 werewolves right? Unless the werewolf in the flavor isn’t representative of a player…but that wouldn’t make sense…would it??...oh noess wifom already!?!?

Spelling error in Mason PM “you can talk to your other masin”

Question on setup…there can be 2 regular monks, or 2 regular masons right? There doesn’t have to be a werewolf or mafia one right?

Day One:

2ndpost God I hate Zazier o.O…(gonna try and be not bias)

Scien Post 8…already trying to look “town”. Dislike.

Woah..Post 9 YJ. First emotion dislike. (After deep exhale). I kinda like. Towntell?

Post 10: EB that’s not discussing and a bad vote. Obv dislike.

11: Maemuki quotes zazier…self votes..w.t.f after YJ and EB. Dislike.
12: ODDiN also ignore YJ. Dislike.
13: YJ, now wagoning Mae..hmm null read at the moment. (That’s a lie…I slightly dislike it…but why…I don’t know)

Alright so real rvs crap ensues…..

(I too like Hayl’s notes)

(Whose YankeeCan 151? Post 22)

23: Farside doesn’t like exchange between Mae+YJ….i did. Calls Sciens crap a “good thought”… Opening call. Farside is scum, which I guess could mean he could be mafia or werewolf in this game. Scien and farside do not share a QT.

Good legitimate conversation already.

Yeah this dudes scum too.

The only time I see people touch on a possible scummy thing and back off our typically scum.

I don't see how it is possibly scummy. I think it is odd that he hasn't confirmed yet and no one mentioned it, especially for people random voting

How the hell can you think this is odd? Its not that he didnt confirm...he never picked up his role PM. (And there were only 2 people who posted/RV prior to your assessment fyi..."yet no one mentioned it":roll: )

Your views are all over the place if I am reading this right.

I disagree.

What was a good thought? How was it a good thought? If its a null tell, why do you want me to aggressively pursue it?

You are not making sense lady.

Ugh I hate when people just rattle off a bunch of useless/poor questions.

------------------------------
I'm debating not reading my role pm until finishing the read..but i dont know if i have that kinda willpower...so far it still says "no new messages" but if it says 1 how will i resist checking!!

--------------------------------


On page 4 now. Here's where I'm at...still no word from hayl...it'd suck/be weird to not be put into the game o.O:

S
But to see someone hesitate as you did in the beggining dancing around the subject felt like someone trying to come up with fluff and see who agrees with it.

Agree.

Hmm.

Later in the game, yes, pushing hard on weak evidence is a scum tell. As a first post, having ANY evidence is great - the goal is to get out of RVS as soon as possible. Refusing to put pressure on other players out of fear of being attacked comes across as very anti-town: it reflects the scum motive of being more concerned about staying alive than finding villains.

I'll have to ponder this. Either a bad play as over-conservative town or a tipped hand as a villain. For the moment I like my vote as it is until I hear an explanation from Nik.

Reading this I was going good, good good….but the 2nd paragraph blows. You like your RV over what appears to be the best lead thus far….Trying to be to careful. Very scummy. Show some balls, be aggressive.

I would have been attacked for using a weak observation on someone, if that observation is all I had, and I needed to stretch for the rest. This would not have been good for the town. I can weather a bit of scrutiny, but getting the town to focus on me is wasting time trying to find scum. It would not have made sense for me to walk down a path where the town would immediately make me the main suspicion.

Bad logic...and being the lead of discussion even seeing a wagon grow on yourself isnt bad, nor bad for the town. Could've obtained a lot of information from it, and I dont like your excuse.

I notice that very few scum now how to be aggressive in the beginning of the game. They either followers, or they hem and haw or backtrack or make wishy washy comments. I don't go after the agressive person. typically scum watches, waits and doesn't do much else.

Agree.

What I expected? Either people directly telling me to STFU because it was WIFOM, or maybe people lightly speculating. Both of which would give me views on them. I didn't expect it to be used in a case (that would have been very odd and I would have been highly critical of it).

I guess I kind of lost sight of that in the immediate defense I had to make due to your strong attack. That attack caught me off guard.

Seems sincere, despite being a bad move.

Do you folks really have to write so many walls?

QFT

Explain, please. It makes me think that you suspect Scien now, yet you're voting YJ. Which one is scummier? Why?

farside gave herself the newbcard in her first post. However, her attacks on Scien make it clear that she intends to not use said newbcard.
i.e. I believe farside was just being modest when she said she was out of touch, so her first post is not a tell.

Knew it…this was obvious. Bad mae.

You would be my vote right now were it not for your attacks on Scien.

Explain, please. It makes me think that you suspect Scien now, yet you're voting YJ. Which one is scummier? Why?

Asking stupid, easily deflected questions is scummy. It appears to be participating, but instead of actually adding content that you make, you are having others add content. Also, are you not self voting at this point? Why maintain it?

True, and good point.

Maemuki's play style but so far it has given me nothing warm, fuzzy or substantial. She's somebody I feel is either anti-town or scum. I'm not voting on her as anti-town is dangerous however one thing I learned with this set up.

Shes relatively new if i recall and my one games worth of experience with her was nothing impressive. In fact i think she lurked hard too...so a policy lynch seems in order.

Well well, out of the RVS already.

On the farside / Scien exchange:
It seems to me farside is being extremely and overly aggressive. The argument against Scien does have a point, but it's not an overly strong point. Yes, it raises an eyebrow that he decided not to push it a bit further to get out of the RVS - but nothing more than that. It's a very, very weak scum tell at best. farside is, IMO, blowing it completely out of proportion.
She's also getting "royally pissed" over this, and I'm not sure why that is. I mean, really, headdesk over that?
It's also giving me a tunneling vibe. She's practically disregarded all other players during that exchange.

This reads as chainsaw defense. Tunneling? Noone else has really said anything yet.

Other thing of note: in posts 26 and 27, Wulfy and maemuki continue playing randomly even though we're clearly out of the RVS by that point. Especially alarming is Maemuki, who's also still voting for herself.

This is good.

wouldn't it have been better to vote one of Wulfy or ODDin, instead of your random vote? If you agree, why didn't you do so?

Woooo! Bring on the Zazie Spamfest, I love 'em ~Hayl

i hate them and her

Yeah yeah yeah..repeating old news doesnt make you look good.

Claim: Bulletproof Jester

Discuss.

YJ

Today we learn what's special about Open Games. Namely, the roles present are listed in one of the first few posts. See you all next time.

Have you used this 'tactic' before?

Oh wow lol i forgot this is an open setup when i read that...(this is my first open game)

Well, your assurance is good enough for me.

Unvote Maemuki, Vote Nikanor

for not posting yet.

Why Nikanor and did this vote have a purpose or was it still random?

Obviously random…such questions/posts are pointless and don’t make you look good.

The only time I see people touch on a possible scummy thing and back off our typically scum.

I don't see how it is possibly scummy. I think it is odd that he hasn't confirmed yet and no one mentioned it, especially for people random voting, but its just a poof of WIFOM really, and there is no real reason to try and push it as a real case.

That's why I chose the word 'odd' and not scummy.

There is no way to derive meaning from this...

so I can't attribute scum points for it.

This is scummy. First reason, stating that he can't see himself a real case in it. So why is it odd to him then that nobody pointed it out?
Secondly, saying the bolded.

Then why point it out?

Word.

No, what she's saying makes a lot of sense.
You pointed something out. Discussing that would have been better than a RVS in case it's worth pursuing (Hence, it being a good thought). Yet, you dismiss it and instead go for a random vote (Hence the criticising of you not being aggressive about it).

QFT

Well, your assurance is good enough for me.

Unvote Maemuki, Vote Nikanor

for not posting yet.

Why Nikanor and did this vote have a purpose or was it still random?

In my last game town lost to a trio of lurker-scum. Another game we were both involved in is now over 5 months long because of lurkers and inactives. So I'm getting kind of touchy about the subject and starting to lean towards the Lynch All Lurkers mentality.

Also, my vote on Maemuki wasn't serious, provided no pressure so was unproductive, and although her wagon wasn't in much danger of an accidental lynch I didn't feel comfortable letting my vote sit there when I logged off.

Nikanor was the first person on the list that hadn't yet posted (and the first one period) and I didn't see any other appealing wagon. So it was a little arbitrary (in selection) and a lot policy (as to why).

This is either baloney or just crap reasoning. Either way I don’t like it. It was soo damn early. Trust me, noone is going to go after and lynch lurkers/active lurkers/bad players harder than me.

Your bias-ness is so strong you made a “real” vote this early over it….and yet don’t have the lynch all lurker mentality yet….odd.(And by odd I mean you’re scum)

I thought it was worth mentioning that we had a 'random' vote on what was a person who had not checked in the game yet. It's WIFOM to have suggested anything else about it, and it wouldn't have helped town. However it is something worth noting. Combined with future actions, it may give sight to motives involved.

Before I'll comment on this, can you elaborate on what you mean with 'future actions' in this case?
Also, from this post (Post 37), I get the impression you're suspicious of Farside. If this is true, why no vote?

Future actions…i.e. future scummy behavior/slips etc. Dur…Zazier is bad. Giant tells don’t happen every game. Lotsa small tells/slips/scummy behavior can make a case where none exist.

So in this "choose your own adventure", I immediately attack ODDin on the grounds that he is 'random' voting for an inactive, someone who wouldn't have defended themselves. (Or I guess Wulf on the grounds of the late confirm. Depending on which I wanted to pressure more). I would have to overextend a lot here, because it IS early game and there's nothing to back me up.

Town/scum catch this, and depending on their alignment will manipulate it, or be critical of it. I will get accused for pushing a weak case, and fabricating suspicion. Mainly pretty anti-town stuff. Pressure is immediately taken off ODDin in favor of me, and we are in the same mess as we are now for different reasons.

First of all, you're stating that you'd see whom of Wulfy and ODDin you'd have wanted to presure more. If you wanted to pressure one of them, why no vote?
Secondly, it's noted that you thought that much about yourself.

First is you repeating old news again, Second is actually a good point.

And

Maemuki

, what were your thoughts about the wagon on you?

Well, I made it. It was to make discussion, it worked, and I assumed that the Mafia and the Werewolves wouldn't quicklynch on Day 1. That would be the same as wearing a T-Shirt saying "Please lynch me".

An obvious answer to a badd question. Zazier sucks more.

@ farside,

Scien: you seem to misunderstand me. I notice that very few scum now how to be aggressive in the beginning of the game.

Not really. There are many people on the site, some play aggresively, others don't, right? It depends, so aggresiveness is a null-tell on my eyes.

Because your so experienced. (massive sarcasm)

@ to whoever said that my apparently worthless question asking is scummy,

I'll talk to you later. They may seem useless now, but as I said, I'll talk to you later.

I'm lookin forward to this.

The only thing I don't like from EB's post, is this:

Nikanor was the first person on the list that hadn't yet posted (and the first one period) and I didn't see any other appealing wagon. So it was a little arbitrary (in selection) and a lot policy (as to why).

Calling his Nik vote a policy vote based upon him not having posted yet, while the game started the same day as his vote was made.

I also don't trust policy lynches.

Now. QFT

Through page 4:

No, I never self-voted period before. I randomly felt like it. As for the reason, I wanted to make discussion. It worked, didn't it?

Well, we have discussion now. But most of it isn't caused by your selfvote or wagon. It barely brings any discussion and a selfvote is most of the time a distraction.

Good point

As for the head desk, do you disagree that when somebody points out something he sees as a possible lead, but doesn't persue it, deserves a head desk or something like that or not?

Who cares..ugh, fluff questions ftl

It's also giving me a tunneling vibe. She's practically disregarded all other players during that exchange.

Not liking this. There's barely any discussion besides the arguments between Scien and Farside. Heck, even you (ODDin) mentioned one thing besides this discussion.

My point exactly.

The head desk was actually because of YJ and Maemuki exchange. It made me want to cry. Also note I'm very sarcastic person and it's just my nature to be sarcastic.

Ahh i did think it was sarcastic humor.

Not having evidence cost the game. I don't want that to happen again. Do either of you feel that's a scum tell?

lol what a garbage question. Yeahhh its a huge scum tell that you want activity and evidence (massive sarcasm for those who can't read between the lines )

Why does it seem that everybody is justifying everything with, "It doesn't matter since you were nowhere close to lynch"? A vote is a signifier of intent to lynch.

Mmmmm yes, no, maybe? Not necessarily. Sometimes a vote is to gage a response.

Why does it seem that everybody is justifying everything with, "It doesn't matter since you were nowhere close to lynch"? A vote is a signifier of intent to lynch.

Is this really all you have to add so far?

Word.

Not liking this. There's barely any discussion besides the arguments between Scien and Farside. Heck, even you (ODDin) mentioned one thing besides this discussion.

That's why I said "tunneling vibe". It's not strictly tunneling at this point, due to the lack of much else to talk about.

Also, I don't think my quote of farside is twisting her words. All I said is what I felt when I read that (yes, I felt that even though knew it technically came as a reply to a question on the subject). That's what I felt, so I wanted to let the town know I feel that. I'm not saying I'm certain this is the case, but people need to be aware that that post by farside might have had an ulterior motive, so to speak.

Backtrackin scum.

Is this really all you have to add so far?

It's a valid question.

It, as in the question asked to you, or as in your last post...cause your post seemed more of a comment or statement rather than a question.

If you're referring to farsides question, than I think we've found our first VT.

Why does it seem that everybody is justifying everything with, "It doesn't matter since you were nowhere close to lynch"? A vote is a signifier of intent to lynch.

Are you saying we shouldn't vote at all until we're positive who is scum? What's your opinion on the use of a vote for pressure?

What's your take on Nikanor? Farside? Scien?

I see you posted several times elsewhere yesterday. Why not here?

Here some more inquisitive crap from EB...he trying to look good...rattle off a buncha questions etc.

Am I the only one noticing Oddin pointing out my flaws and reaction but neglecting to mention scien at all and his reactions to being called out?
Or the fact that Oddi pointed to an explaination and seems to twist it into something insubstantial that is pure conjection and not fact based?

Nope, I noticed too.

First of all, hello there Benmage. Please DON'T post before you read your role PM. It can give you an advantage if you're scum (I did it myself without realising the consequences not too long ago).

?? dont i want an advantage if i end up being scum...?

Please clarify what you are talking about so we know what to talk about.

Translation: Please give me some more crap to discuss so it looks like i'm active and discussing, cause this tangents gonna go nowhere.

(Epiphany RBT will replace YankeeCane)

I'm getting some good vibes from both Scien and farside here, so I won't vote either of them. Instead, I'll...

Vote: YamiJoey

for his double standards regarding EB and Wulfy. Wulfy gets a vote for hopping on the Maemuki wagon to put her at L-3, but YJ does not mention EB's L-3 vote on Maemuki just a few posts prior.

I read this as YJ simply unvoting Mae because his joke to wagon her was seeming too real with all the subsequent voters....His vote on Wulfy was imo simply another/new RV.

You would be my vote right now were it not for your attacks on Scien.

Explain, please. It makes me think that you suspect Scien now, yet you're voting YJ. Which one is scummier? Why?

?? It seems pretty apparent… Fars attacks on Scien illustrate shes not gonna hide behind the “newbcard”. Had Far not acted thusly Nik would’ve been voting her.

Erm...you're calling him out for not doing something you'd find scummy? This is even worse than Scien's vague suspicion thing.

Not calling him out, commending him(her).

If you did not find it so worthwhile then why mention it in the first place?

I thought it was worth mentioning that we had a 'random' vote on what was a person who had not checked in the game yet.

Hmm…Maybe you should’ve voted Oddin to gauge his reasoning. But it looked like a harmless RV from me.

I am looking for scum... I am not looking for small things that can excuse my vote.

Ah, so your role PM reads werewolf.

If my two phrases were weak, why do you suggest an aggressive case? What is the townie benefit of aggressively pushing a weak case?

I see weak case and I'm going to question your motive. I see an attempt at a weak comment with a random vote and pounce on it wondering if your vagueness is a slight buss, or if it means more.

Brilliant. I think Oddin could be scum too…or well werewolf.

Since I"m royally pissed off at this back and forth lets start from the beginning.

Oh god…dreading reading the rest of this posts..i’m already tired of reading you and scien.

New line of thought: One of these two or both might be town. Both are showing a high level of activity/commitment/forefront to this game which is a strong town tell…Although one might be forced into this sight via the other, and I give the town edge to farside.

However, I do agree that his choice of a random vote rather than pursuing a weak case is questionable and anti-town. Scien comes across as deliberately obtuse in avoiding addressing that issue:

What is the townie benefit of aggressively pushing a weak case?

...rather than RVS? I think it's obvious. So why did you choose as you did, Scien?

Bingo, good post.

Post 44 (Scien’s rings town)

Long story short there is NO manipulation here, I am not trying to fool anyone. Your initial complains were worded as to criticize me for not pushing 'a good idea'. A 'good idea' that you call a null tell and criticize me later for even bringing up in the first point. I saw this as an inconsistency and tried to question over it, but apparently pissed you off in doing so.

It was odd that you commented and didnt pursue it. Even if the case is null to weak it would've been an easy way to spur out of the RVS which seemed like something you wanted to do simply by making the comment. You commenting and just tossing out a RV seems like a poor move.

"Why were you pushing a weak case on someone when you didn't have much to go on. You are manipulating the situation scum."

Or.

"Why did you not use your observation in an attack on ODDin or Wulf. You are manipulating the situation by pushing cases that you don't want to be involved in. Scum."

Of course I didn't foresee how much trouble I would get into for not pushing a weak case. Wow, that last sentence is not something I ever expected to have to say.

It was the rv stage…you wanted to start discussion…there is never anything strong to go on early…seems like several things to explain your actions if you chose to pursue Oddin.

------------------------------Post 47 looks like I’m gonna be replacing in now.



On page 4 now. Here's where I'm at...still no word from hayl...it'd suck/be weird to not be put into the game o.O:

S
But to see someone hesitate as you did in the beggining dancing around the subject felt like someone trying to come up with fluff and see who agrees with it.

Agree.

Hmm.

Later in the game, yes, pushing hard on weak evidence is a scum tell. As a first post, having ANY evidence is great - the goal is to get out of RVS as soon as possible. Refusing to put pressure on other players out of fear of being attacked comes across as very anti-town: it reflects the scum motive of being more concerned about staying alive than finding villains.

I'll have to ponder this. Either a bad play as over-conservative town or a tipped hand as a villain. For the moment I like my vote as it is until I hear an explanation from Nik.

Reading this I was going good, good good….but the 2nd paragraph blows. You like your RV over what appears to be the best lead thus far….Trying to be to careful. Very scummy. Show some balls, be aggressive.

I would have been attacked for using a weak observation on someone, if that observation is all I had, and I needed to stretch for the rest. This would not have been good for the town. I can weather a bit of scrutiny, but getting the town to focus on me is wasting time trying to find scum. It would not have made sense for me to walk down a path where the town would immediately make me the main suspicion.

Bad logic...and being the lead of discussion even seeing a wagon grow on yourself isnt bad, nor bad for the town. Could've obtained a lot of information from it, and I dont like your excuse.

I notice that very few scum now how to be aggressive in the beginning of the game. They either followers, or they hem and haw or backtrack or make wishy washy comments. I don't go after the agressive person. typically scum watches, waits and doesn't do much else.

Agree.

What I expected? Either people directly telling me to STFU because it was WIFOM, or maybe people lightly speculating. Both of which would give me views on them. I didn't expect it to be used in a case (that would have been very odd and I would have been highly critical of it).

I guess I kind of lost sight of that in the immediate defense I had to make due to your strong attack. That attack caught me off guard.

Seems sincere, despite being a bad move.

Do you folks really have to write so many walls?

QFT

Explain, please. It makes me think that you suspect Scien now, yet you're voting YJ. Which one is scummier? Why?

farside gave herself the newbcard in her first post. However, her attacks on Scien make it clear that she intends to not use said newbcard.
i.e. I believe farside was just being modest when she said she was out of touch, so her first post is not a tell.

Knew it…this was obvious. Bad mae.

You would be my vote right now were it not for your attacks on Scien.

Explain, please. It makes me think that you suspect Scien now, yet you're voting YJ. Which one is scummier? Why?

Asking stupid, easily deflected questions is scummy. It appears to be participating, but instead of actually adding content that you make, you are having others add content. Also, are you not self voting at this point? Why maintain it?

True, and good point.

Maemuki's play style but so far it has given me nothing warm, fuzzy or substantial. She's somebody I feel is either anti-town or scum. I'm not voting on her as anti-town is dangerous however one thing I learned with this set up.

Shes relatively new if i recall and my one games worth of experience with her was nothing impressive. In fact i think she lurked hard too...so a policy lynch seems in order.

Well well, out of the RVS already.

On the farside / Scien exchange:
It seems to me farside is being extremely and overly aggressive. The argument against Scien does have a point, but it's not an overly strong point. Yes, it raises an eyebrow that he decided not to push it a bit further to get out of the RVS - but nothing more than that. It's a very, very weak scum tell at best. farside is, IMO, blowing it completely out of proportion.
She's also getting "royally pissed" over this, and I'm not sure why that is. I mean, really, headdesk over that?
It's also giving me a tunneling vibe. She's practically disregarded all other players during that exchange.

This reads as chainsaw defense. Tunneling? Noone else has really said anything yet.

Other thing of note: in posts 26 and 27, Wulfy and maemuki continue playing randomly even though we're clearly out of the RVS by that point. Especially alarming is Maemuki, who's also still voting for herself.

This is good.

wouldn't it have been better to vote one of Wulfy or ODDin, instead of your random vote? If you agree, why didn't you do so?

Woooo! Bring on the Zazie Spamfest, I love 'em ~Hayl

i hate them and her

Yeah yeah yeah..repeating old news doesnt make you look good.

Claim: Bulletproof Jester

Discuss.

YJ

Today we learn what's special about Open Games. Namely, the roles present are listed in one of the first few posts. See you all next time.

Have you used this 'tactic' before?

Oh wow lol i forgot this is an open setup when i read that...(this is my first open game)

Well, your assurance is good enough for me.

Unvote Maemuki, Vote Nikanor

for not posting yet.

Why Nikanor and did this vote have a purpose or was it still random?

Obviously random…such questions/posts are pointless and don’t make you look good.

The only time I see people touch on a possible scummy thing and back off our typically scum.

I don't see how it is possibly scummy. I think it is odd that he hasn't confirmed yet and no one mentioned it, especially for people random voting, but its just a poof of WIFOM really, and there is no real reason to try and push it as a real case.

That's why I chose the word 'odd' and not scummy.

There is no way to derive meaning from this...

so I can't attribute scum points for it.

This is scummy. First reason, stating that he can't see himself a real case in it. So why is it odd to him then that nobody pointed it out?
Secondly, saying the bolded.

Then why point it out?

Word.

No, what she's saying makes a lot of sense.
You pointed something out. Discussing that would have been better than a RVS in case it's worth pursuing (Hence, it being a good thought). Yet, you dismiss it and instead go for a random vote (Hence the criticising of you not being aggressive about it).

QFT

Well, your assurance is good enough for me.

Unvote Maemuki, Vote Nikanor

for not posting yet.

Why Nikanor and did this vote have a purpose or was it still random?

In my last game town lost to a trio of lurker-scum. Another game we were both involved in is now over 5 months long because of lurkers and inactives. So I'm getting kind of touchy about the subject and starting to lean towards the Lynch All Lurkers mentality.

Also, my vote on Maemuki wasn't serious, provided no pressure so was unproductive, and although her wagon wasn't in much danger of an accidental lynch I didn't feel comfortable letting my vote sit there when I logged off.

Nikanor was the first person on the list that hadn't yet posted (and the first one period) and I didn't see any other appealing wagon. So it was a little arbitrary (in selection) and a lot policy (as to why).

This is either baloney or just crap reasoning. Either way I don’t like it. It was soo damn early. Trust me, noone is going to go after and lynch lurkers/active lurkers/bad players harder than me.

Your bias-ness is so strong you made a “real” vote this early over it….and yet don’t have the lynch all lurker mentality yet….odd.(And by odd I mean you’re scum)

I thought it was worth mentioning that we had a 'random' vote on what was a person who had not checked in the game yet. It's WIFOM to have suggested anything else about it, and it wouldn't have helped town. However it is something worth noting. Combined with future actions, it may give sight to motives involved.

Before I'll comment on this, can you elaborate on what you mean with 'future actions' in this case?
Also, from this post (Post 37), I get the impression you're suspicious of Farside. If this is true, why no vote?

Future actions…i.e. future scummy behavior/slips etc. Dur…Zazier is bad. Giant tells don’t happen every game. Lotsa small tells/slips/scummy behavior can make a case where none exist.

So in this "choose your own adventure", I immediately attack ODDin on the grounds that he is 'random' voting for an inactive, someone who wouldn't have defended themselves. (Or I guess Wulf on the grounds of the late confirm. Depending on which I wanted to pressure more). I would have to overextend a lot here, because it IS early game and there's nothing to back me up.

Town/scum catch this, and depending on their alignment will manipulate it, or be critical of it. I will get accused for pushing a weak case, and fabricating suspicion. Mainly pretty anti-town stuff. Pressure is immediately taken off ODDin in favor of me, and we are in the same mess as we are now for different reasons.

First of all, you're stating that you'd see whom of Wulfy and ODDin you'd have wanted to presure more. If you wanted to pressure one of them, why no vote?
Secondly, it's noted that you thought that much about yourself.

First is you repeating old news again, Second is actually a good point.

And

Maemuki

, what were your thoughts about the wagon on you?

Well, I made it. It was to make discussion, it worked, and I assumed that the Mafia and the Werewolves wouldn't quicklynch on Day 1. That would be the same as wearing a T-Shirt saying "Please lynch me".

An obvious answer to a badd question. Zazier sucks more.

@ farside,

Scien: you seem to misunderstand me. I notice that very few scum now how to be aggressive in the beginning of the game.

Not really. There are many people on the site, some play aggresively, others don't, right? It depends, so aggresiveness is a null-tell on my eyes.

Because your so experienced. (massive sarcasm)

@ to whoever said that my apparently worthless question asking is scummy,

I'll talk to you later. They may seem useless now, but as I said, I'll talk to you later.

I'm lookin forward to this.

The only thing I don't like from EB's post, is this:

Nikanor was the first person on the list that hadn't yet posted (and the first one period) and I didn't see any other appealing wagon. So it was a little arbitrary (in selection) and a lot policy (as to why).

Calling his Nik vote a policy vote based upon him not having posted yet, while the game started the same day as his vote was made.

I also don't trust policy lynches.

Now. QFT[/area]


Through page 4:

No, I never self-voted period before. I randomly felt like it. As for the reason, I wanted to make discussion. It worked, didn't it?

Well, we have discussion now. But most of it isn't caused by your selfvote or wagon. It barely brings any discussion and a selfvote is most of the time a distraction.

Good point

As for the head desk, do you disagree that when somebody points out something he sees as a possible lead, but doesn't persue it, deserves a head desk or something like that or not?

Who cares..ugh, fluff questions ftl

It's also giving me a tunneling vibe. She's practically disregarded all other players during that exchange.

Not liking this. There's barely any discussion besides the arguments between Scien and Farside. Heck, even you (ODDin) mentioned one thing besides this discussion.

My point exactly.

The head desk was actually because of YJ and Maemuki exchange. It made me want to cry. Also note I'm very sarcastic person and it's just my nature to be sarcastic.

Ahh i did think it was sarcastic humor.

Not having evidence cost the game. I don't want that to happen again. Do either of you feel that's a scum tell?

lol what a garbage question. Yeahhh its a huge scum tell that you want activity and evidence (massive sarcasm for those who can't read between the lines )

Why does it seem that everybody is justifying everything with, "It doesn't matter since you were nowhere close to lynch"? A vote is a signifier of intent to lynch.

Mmmmm yes, no, maybe? Not necessarily. Sometimes a vote is to gage a response.

Why does it seem that everybody is justifying everything with, "It doesn't matter since you were nowhere close to lynch"? A vote is a signifier of intent to lynch.

Is this really all you have to add so far?

Word.

Not liking this. There's barely any discussion besides the arguments between Scien and Farside. Heck, even you (ODDin) mentioned one thing besides this discussion.

That's why I said "tunneling vibe". It's not strictly tunneling at this point, due to the lack of much else to talk about.

Also, I don't think my quote of farside is twisting her words. All I said is what I felt when I read that (yes, I felt that even though knew it technically came as a reply to a question on the subject). That's what I felt, so I wanted to let the town know I feel that. I'm not saying I'm certain this is the case, but people need to be aware that that post by farside might have had an ulterior motive, so to speak.

Backtrackin scum.

Is this really all you have to add so far?

It's a valid question.

It, as in the question asked to you, or as in your last post...cause your post seemed more of a comment or statement rather than a question.

If you're referring to farsides question, than I think we've found our first VT.

Why does it seem that everybody is justifying everything with, "It doesn't matter since you were nowhere close to lynch"? A vote is a signifier of intent to lynch.

Are you saying we shouldn't vote at all until we're positive who is scum? What's your opinion on the use of a vote for pressure?

What's your take on Nikanor? Farside? Scien?

I see you posted several times elsewhere yesterday. Why not here?

Here some more inquisitive crap from EB...he trying to look good...rattle off a buncha questions etc.

Am I the only one noticing Oddin pointing out my flaws and reaction but neglecting to mention scien at all and his reactions to being called out?
Or the fact that Oddi pointed to an explaination and seems to twist it into something insubstantial that is pure conjection and not fact based?

Nope, I noticed too.

First of all, hello there Benmage. Please DON'T post before you read your role PM. It can give you an advantage if you're scum (I did it myself without realising the consequences not too long ago).

?? dont i want an advantage if i end up being scum...?

[Benmage]

So I didnt realize Fuzzy and Wulfy died since page one didnt have em listed as dead.

Go me calling Fuzzy VT with only being caught up to page 4.

[Benmage]

Nikanor+Fuzzy is our first team of baddies.

Alternative read.

[Benmage]

@ Ben, what do you think about more recent events - on this case, hewitt and RBT's wagon?

Come on...did you read anything i wrote, or what i've been doing? I'm given the thread a whole read down with my interpretation/views on everythings...it might take a couple days...D2 only just started, give me a minute...i'mma commin with a bang.

[Benmage]

Come on...did you read anything i wrote, or what i've been doing? I'm given the thread a whole read down with my interpretation/views on everythings...it might take a couple days...D2 only just started, give me a minute...i'mma commin with a bang.

Sure I read it. But I don't want you to miss the current discussion.

So, give us your opinions. Even if rushed, they're better than nothing. But if you want to finish your read first...*shrugs* I would still like to hear your opinions on what's happening now.

Bull. Rushed opinions? Whats the point...so i can misinterpret/misread an argument waste my time and others reexplaining it...i'll get to it in due time, and be all caught up and proper soon enough.

[Benmage]

EBWOP everything would also be out of context, i wouldnt even know where to look for the current debate...no its best to go from the beginning.

[Benmage]

Anyways heres some more of me catching up:

Post 103: Geeze could Oddin be trying to appease everyone anymore?

I see why Yankee/RBT bit it just by his first few posts. Which rocks cause RBT would’ve been a policy lynch for me anyways.

Perhaps a strong word, but I think suitable. I've given plenty of reasoning for my vote, and repeatedly stated that the alternative was a random vote.

I do not understand why you would change from a RVS to a non talker so early in the game.

I don't believe you, not after all your interrogations when Scien voted randomly.

Lurker lynching is typically scum driven hence my questioning of your vote.

Mmm maybe, but typically scum initiated?

Again, not trying to lynch a lurker, trying to send a message I won't tolerate it. If you feel that's scummy, fair 'nuff. I need to re-read if that motivation coincides with your questions.

this is being beat to death.

What changed my mind was simply that I didn't want to leave my vote on Maemuki when I logged off (it wasn't accomplishing anything and the wagon was large - and seemed destined to get larger - for RVS). I didn't see any non-random reasons to vote those posting, so I went after someone not.

Unvoting works...dont need to have a vote on someone at all times. What does "someone not" mean...someone not yet to post. Ok.

I still can't quite fathom how the switch wasn't acceptably justified when my preceding vote was for a cookie.

Lol, are you defending the significance of your vote vs a RV? wow... if your votes only need to beat random ones, this'll be an easy lynch.

Alright so first things first the argument between farside and Scien is not something I'm really paying all that much attention to because when an argument like this springs up so early in the game

I feel like it's very likely it could just be a town vs. town argument.

This.

.

Non-committal.

True

What do you want me to do Wulfy? Take a side when both sides have crappy arguments? Do you want me to back the one I feel is the least crappy and attack the one that I think is the most?

You said a whole lot of nothing. Though some of the feelings true/good..they've been talked about before. You havent said much yet, so commenting on them is good...but hopefully you can start bringing some more to the table. You a VT too?

Questions:
-Why could one of the mentioned actions have scum motivations behind them? (Wulfy not confirming and ODDin not mentioning this when voting)
-You're saying here that you don't know if either means a thing. Yet in the case it could have meant something about the allignment, wouldn't it have been better to vote one of Wulfy or ODDin, instead of your random vote? If you agree, why didn't you do so?

They couldn't. Hence me not pursing either Wulfy or ODDin on the grounds that I thought it was scummy.
No, because of the answer to your first question. Yes, I know how wanting to not pursue someone based on how it would make someone look could be spun as anti-town. However, as a pro-town role I have a duty to stay alive too.

Yes, yes answering zazier is pointless...but this last line how you didn't get hung D1 is going to be interesting finding out.

[C]an you elaborate on what you mean with 'future actions' in this case?
Also, from this post (Post 37), I get the impression you're suspicious of Farside. If this is true, why no vote?

Future actions? Actions in the game later in the day... I assume you mean who would have been making them? Anyone. People attacking the point, people using the point, people mentioned in the point. They were going to give views based on the point, those views have motives. When you combine the reactions everyone is having now, with claimed views and actions they have later, you can look back and see things more clearly.

oooph you answered this way more than i ever would've.

First of all, you're stating that you'd see whom of Wulfy and ODDin you'd have wanted to presure more. If you wanted to pressure one of them, why no vote? Secondly, it's noted that you thought that much about yourself.

First of all you are reading that out of context, I explicitly stated there that if we play this game of "what if I pushed that weak case", I would have voted one over it and the resulting case would been weak. My point is, that would have lead to an attack on me as well, for "Pushing a weak case as strong, and fabricating suspicion."
Second, I don't understand what you mean... I thought that much about myself? I'm assuming you mean that I should be less concerned with self-preservation as town. I can't fight that, and people have mentioned it before. I claim that wanting to live is neither pro-town or anti-town, but spin it all you want.

On the first..i already commented how your deduction was bad. I cant quote myself to highlight this if you like.

Second. Its pretty evident that she questioned that it was odd you put such insane thought into your first post, your first deduction/assessment, your first RV..and came to so many conclusions...well if i do A, it'll lead to B, to C, to all the way to X, "me being scummy, and not good for the town"....this is some crazy longterm thought process that i think she was doubting you actually committed to.(Seems you've said this after the fact to cover your tracks and make you look better) I have to agree with her. You a utilitarian?

[Benmage]

She is a tough one to tackle:

3) I assert that there are possible other motivations that could explain why I didn't push the case at that point.

I know this is a bad defense

Its more than just a bad defense..the assertions themselves are also poor. But...ok.

I have done nothing to garner defense from others, I have not played well, and even though I have been vocally defending myself to try and save me it doesn't appear to be working. And yet someone comes in and starts talking like what I am doing makes sense? I am getting a creepy buddying attempt feeling out of it.

Daaamnnn son this is good.

Page 6 and I'm already confused. New record!

Nikanor+Fuzzy is our first team of baddies. Joins with Nik in blowing a vote out of proportion, playing up the victim card; excuses his own silence at the same time; attempts to stifle a townie's only weapon and excuses mislynching on principle. It's a veritable buffet of scumminess.

Let me see. Fuzzy has done nothing. How can you say that? Am I missing something here?

Wow, an actual good deduction from Mae.

Anybody can make a tl;dr version of Scien's posts? There's no way I'll read all that. I'm too lazy.

Ah that’s the Mae I know.

I apologize for that. There are a lot of questions coming at me, and I didn't want to miss any of them.

Apologies are for scum.

Curiously, I'm thinking the same thing about you - you've completely ignored my reason for voting for you and request for an explanation, and instead blown a barely-not-random vote wildly out of proportion to derail the conversation.

What? I see no request for explanation.
You said your original reason for voting me was because I was the last to post. Is that still the case? If so, I can explain it by saying I was first asleep, then at school for a couple hours before being able to get to a computer to post. Believe it or not, some people live in seperate timezones. If your reason has changed since then, point out the place where you have said your reasoning changed, because I don't see anything.

I think this is a misread Nik. EB votes you initially for not posting…but clearly that vote instantly becomes null after you post…So why would it remain? I dug a little deeper (iso’d EB(I know not even done reading and re-isoing someone)(yes I do rock))…

Here’s where it is EB iso 5:

I'll have to ponder this. Either a bad play as over-conservative town or a tipped hand as a villain.

For the moment I like my vote as it is until I hear an explanation from Nik.

In my opinion. The only logical reason why EB can like his vote is for his iso 3:

@farside: I'm glad to see you didn't play that newbcard you decided to give yourself. You would be my vote right now were it not for your attacks on Scien.

Erm...you're calling him out for not doing something you'd find scummy? This is even worse than Scien's vague suspicion thing.

Now…the reasoning itself is atrocious, but this appears to be said motive.

It was barely more than random, and at this point the only thing I find interesting about it is how defensive you've become when faced with suspicion and who has jumped to champion you.

He doesnt seem defensive at all. In fact for something you're now saying is barely more a random vote, you certainly gave a lot of back history...linking previous games, talking about lynch all lurkers mentality etc etc...I would've just opened and ended it at something "barely more than random"....Peculiar (see definition for

Odd

)

Sorry, what I meant by that is that playing the newbcard on yourself is scummy. Since she didn't use the newbcard on herself, I have no reason to vote her.

so obvious...jebus (cant believe somethings still get mentioned/repeated)

Sorry, what I meant by that is that playing the newbcard on yourself is scummy. Since she didn't use the newbcard on herself, I have no reason to vote her.

But then why mention it at all?

crap...why the hell not mention? he would've voted her had she acted elsewhere..he just wanted to make the statement..who cares, this question is more baloney crap to look inquisitive...what was the point of it? what almighty information were you possibly looking to obtain from it?

Please grow some balls and just do it. If you don't do it people are going to question you about it.

Haha, i wish i just started in this game.

[Benmage]

Chugga chugga chugga choo choo:

(Second headdesk bolded)
So that's what I was referring to earlier.
I understand it's sarcastic (and I realise you didn't, I hope, actually smck your head on your desk), but it still expresses more agitation than I'd expect.

So.

For the record, me voting for farside doesn't mean I mean I find her initial argument against Scien technically wrong. Seeing we have two different scum groups, you can have scum attacking scum even without bussing.

So why did you?

This isn't even close to really big walls of texts.

Errr...yeah they definitely qualify as "close" to big walls...and certainly are dense.

Also, I do find FoSs useful. They concisely explain your standing and opinion on people.

They dont explain shit anymore than saying someone is "scummy"/"acting scummy"

Is there anybody out there that disagrees with this?

You see, to apply pressure you need to make clear that you're ready to lynch, sure. That said, you might pressure somebody without intending to lead it all the way to the lynch just there. Not every vote means that if everybody else votes right at that moment for that person you're going to be satisfied.
There is such a thing as "pressure votes", and they are being used extensively, whether you like it or not.

A FoS isn't a "pressure vote".

This is not to say you're the biggest offender in the not-contributing department. Yank is the prime offender, I think, and he's followed by hewitt and YJ (although YJ did acknowledge this and said he was gone and expressed intention to catch up, so he's getting the benefit of doubt right now).

Word. Good point.. Terrible accidental bus tho.. You're buddy, EB, the claimed protagonist of lynch lurkers, hasnt mentioned them...tsk tsk.

inc rattle to look inquisitive :

1) What do you think about the arguments against Scien? Do you think they are have merit? Do you suspect Scien for being scum based on them?
2) What do you think about farside and her behaviour in that exchange?
3) Who do you find most scummy? Why?

Asking 10 go nowhere questions isn't making you look town..you fail to followup on questions you ask anyways. If you actually want genuine responses where there can be a back n forth...dont ask so many.

I agree with the statement that I'm one of the worst offenders in the not contributing department right now. I've become a little bit disengaged with the game due to the back and forths that I really don't care about at all. I've already answered two out of three of your questions but just for contents sake I'll re-answer them and then hopefully somebody can answer back to me so I'll actually have something to go off this game.

1. I don't care about the arguments against Scien at all and I actually think they're a little ridiculous. The whole comment that started the argument at the beginning of the game about him pushing a weak case without actually pushing it bullshit is pretty stupid and bleak in my opinion. Everything that's resulted from there is just horse poop and no I do not suspect Scien for being scum based on those merits.

2. farside I think has been pretty articulate in her opinions, definitely smart and knows what to do to make herself look like the better one in the argument.

3. Probably farside for pushing this case way too far and reaching way too hard.

Hopefully 3 is just catering to the question asked, because this post is town.

And no, I don't think that lurking is a scum tell.

^^Terrible player.

[Benmage]

Gonna have to take a break, might be done for today got work and all soonish.

[Benmage]

Why does it seem that everybody is justifying everything with, "It doesn't matter since you were nowhere close to lynch"? A vote is a signifier of intent to lynch.

Why did you state this, instead of your thoughts about some players?

Why ask this question instead of stating your opinions on players? (God i hate her/her style of pay)

Fuzzy's continuing deflections and lack of scumhunting are again noted.

This must be in reference to this:

Also,

Fuzzy

, you stated earlier that you don't like pressure votes. Why didn't you comment on ODDin's vote?

What, do you want me to put everybody's votes in quote boxes individually and attack them? This question could be asked of me regarding anybody's vote.

The post right before it. In which I disagree with EB…Fuzzy’s answer is fine for the bad-line of questioning Zazier asserts.

At the moment I think it's more likely that the Scien/farside debate is bussing than actual scumhunting, since there's so much blather over something so minor and I'm having a VERY hard time accepting that farside really sees all she's claiming in it. But to be honest, I stopped reading the exchange a while ago.

You think they're both scum, bussing one another..... As the likely scenario..lol. You dont accept farsides opinion, and accept some of the crazy prethoughts of scien...okk..

It's really a fairly quick read right now. I think I'll do one after showering.

Gimme a couple of minutes and I'll try to salvage something. Honestly I've been checking in a lot and there's been absolutely nothing I found compelling to comment on so I just haven't.

Oh that’s just plain anti-town behavior.

Weak arguments are fine, arguments are whatever. I'm talking about pushing weak cases and weak votes, pushing those really don't ever end up very well for the town.

This seems like a differences of semantics. Pushing a weak case with a weak vote in the RVS is more or less the same as pushing a weak argument..in the rvs go nuts....sometime past this phase, dont do it.

I still think the lack of scumhunting phrase is pretty carelessly thrown out and honestly would you rather have somebody going off on false, not thought out trails then just shutting up and waiting until they find something that they can contribute to the conversation?

I disagree. scumhunting can easily be shown to some degree. "attacked A, B, C here: X, Y, Z."....allowing someone to shutup because there hasn't been anything to comment on, can get really 'grey' and allow someone to lurk/actively for way to long...(scummy).

[Benmage]

Fuzzy's case was valid. Hell his own mason buddy thought he was scum and who wouldnt' based on how he played.
You fliped onto RBT after trying to distance yourself. There is a big difference.

Whattt?? We have a claimed mason, and a fuzzy flip? Who?

[Benmage]

Still trudging:

@ EB, eeeh, pretty much wants to lynch the lurkers and no one else. Follows the town, and it seems like he's more likely to vote for a town-lurker than a scum-active poster. That bugs me.

^ Done from memory. Most likely not accurate. And I'm trying to understand the arguments. No luck yet.

Well, if you agree that farside/Scien arguing is useless...then why are you paying so much mind to it? It's mostly arguing about something that's very small, and

If you say that I've been posting more on my other games, it's because they don't have walls of text that confuse me. Just before you point that out.

This whole post read as a big inner sigh. Cant get a read on bad players. Shes a policy lynch... the earlier the better. Although i think i'm seeing some real evident scum here that should probably be dealt with first.

The only reason I'd lynch lurkers is if they are intentionally doing so: deliberately posting here only enough not to be booted and not posting anything with content. Do you feel such actions are pro-town, or a scum tell? What effect do you think these players will have on endgame and potential LYLO situations? How do you suggest we address those situations?

I don't think the lurkers are acting pro-town at all by not contributing but I don't really think it's a scumtell in D1. I'm much more focused about today and lynching scum today than any potential LYLO situation because we're not even close to being ready for that yet.

My goal today is to seek out who I feel is most likely to be scum based mainly on who I believe is manipulating the rest of the town.

Meh the early days are the time to lynch lurkers/policy lynch. Because D1 is more likely from my experience to be a mislynch. So knock out a useless player with a chance of flipping scum seems totally worth it early on. Otherwise the nagging lurker "is he scum lurking/actively lurking" can be detrimental if one remains till lylo, and causes a mislynch. (Yes this happened to me and I am bitter...Lynch all lurkers/bad players!)

I think this is a case of active lurking rather than someone who is merely behind. I think you are behind because you want to be.

oooo dunt dunt daaaaa

So, you're saying you are always afraid to have a vote trail on you? I think that for the purposes of allowing players to do vote analysis in the late game that voting who you find to be scummiest (without lynching unless they fit the reason you described above) is a good thing and gives a nice, simple read of your train of thought. Hm... that is more null though. I guess a better question is how scummy do you think farside is then? What exactly pushed her in that direction so that the rest of the town can have that to view? If you wish to keep it personal, be my guess, but I fail to see how starting discussion in this manner would be detrimental.

What the fuck are you talking about with being afraid of a vote trail? That's quite possibly one of the biggest twisting of my words I've seen in a while. I made it clear that I cast my vote with the intent to lynch because that's when I deem it appropriate.

I disagree with this Hew. I've seen games where you vote around a whole lot more than you have this game. Sure it can be wifom and you can say those votes you wanted to lynch in every incident. And right now i dont care to cipher through to see if this holds weight (yet). But your lack of votes is uncharacteristic...maybe you havent sunk your teeth into the game...we'll see.

Waiting until it's critical to have a read on them is kind of the problem, though. The first couple days are important later, when we can read their comments towards known townies and scum.

Combined with your other comments, "manipulating the rest of town" sounds suspiciously like "voting and investigating". Could you explain the difference?

I'm not sure at all what you're insinuating but with manipulating the rest of town I'm talking about making and pushing weak cases on players then sitting back and letting others do the dirty work for them. Sort of like the puppet master.

Puppetmaster...one brings up a weak case, and others fly to the defense of it and push it...when is this ever the usual occurrence? (Or any for that matter)

[Benmage]

Whattt?? We have a claimed mason, and a fuzzy flip? Who?

You haven't caught up to that point yet I don't think. Hewitt claimed Fuzzy as a partner a bit before day end. Right before RBT voted for Fuzzy (pretty much right after the claim IIRC).

Gotchya, thats interesting to know.

I'm only about half way through on my read. Bare with me..it'll probably take the same amount of time to get through the 2nd half (unless those walls start slowing down.. that scien/farside early interplay was tough to read)

[Benmage]

For now.

unvote:
vote: Oddin

Ladies and gentlemen, OMGUS.

Did you not even read my reason's for the vote? That is not OMGUS. OMGUS is I vote you for voting me. That is clearly not the case. Again you twist things that are not fact.

This.

2) What you're doing is hypocritical. Earlier, you've voted Scien for not pushing a weak case. Now you're voting me because I did push a weak case.

This is abstract and case based. Both Fars points can be valid without this being hypocritical.

3) This is the second time now you're accusing me of not reading things, which feels like you attempting to invalidate my arguments. I am reading what you're saying, and I know what's going on. When I say something, it means I think so even if other things have been said on the subject matter - that is, it means I think you're lying.

Cheerupemokid

---

As for the rest of her questions to others in that post:
I think I can cover it with a blanket statement. She seems to be focusing on people's RVS mainly. This is not bad at this point in the game. The bulk of many people's posts were RVS posts, and she is trying to get them to comment more on the game as it stands. Seems okay to me.

9 pages in and its cool to focus on the rvs...o.O?

---

Just out of curiosity Wulfy are you really wanting to know what my thoughts towards Farside are? Or is this an attempt to flair up things again?

What do you want from this questions? Who would ever say "oh yeah lets fire things up again"..i mean come on, really...

I notice that very few scum now how to be aggressive in the beginning of the game. They either followers, or they hem and haw or backtrack or make wishy washy comments. I don't go after the agressive person. typically scum watches, waits and doesn't do much else.

I can see you haven't played in a while. In other words, this is totally, totally wrong. I see overaggressive scum more than I see overaggressive town.

Damn thats a throwback quote. She was aggressive...i think its toned down some. Too much wifom for my liking, I don’t have the experience, but is she aggressive as town and scum?

Also, I don't think my quote of farside is twisting her words. All I said is what I felt when I read that (yes, I felt that even though knew it technically came as a reply to a question on the subject). That's what I felt, so I wanted to let the town know I feel that. I'm not saying I'm certain this is the case, but people need to be aware that that post by farside might have had an ulterior motive, so to speak.

This is the main thing I was talking about, because I looked back at the quote in question and I saw the possibility of an ulterior motive as well.
In order to catch a good scum player, one must search for ulterior motive in posts. In that way, I think it's a good thing that ODDin said what he had about that quote, but I also see how you can take that as a twisting of your words.

This is a nice pickup.

[Benmage]

Probably done for today.

[Benmage]

It will take me some time to read everything Benmage wrote, but here are some responses to things directed to me:

This is what i imagined. I'm trying to do a relatively blank slate read through putting down my sentiments as i read and as it hits me as if i were here initially...My catchup/read thru is both for me to maybe future refer to, and you guys...feel free to skim most or focus on parts on where you guys are mentioned...When i'm done i'm sure i'll make some sort of conclusion/summary and probably re-ask any real important questions that may of been missed.

Word. Good point.. Terrible accidental bus tho.. You're buddy, EB, the claimed protagonist of lynch lurkers, hasnt mentioned them...tsk tsk.

I simply don't understand what you mean by this. Care to rephrase?

You + Eb = scum buddies...EB focus'd on lurkers, but has since laxxed on the issue. You bringing up lurkers illustrates his flaw and his really poor "early lurker vote"...its just a minor thing i noticed.

Gads, this is a game for walls, I guess. Benmage seems to have lots to write but not much to say. Any solid suspects, Ben?

Oh yeah...Hayl might has well of pm'd me everyones roles, this games an open book.

[Benmage]

My original vote on you was based on two things:
1) You were far too annoyed and edgy over what seemed to be a not so strong argument. (It's not the argument itself which bothers me - it's the way you handled the discussion around it.)
2) One of your posts made me feel like you're trying to implicitly show how oh-very-town you are.

1. Meh
2. wifom

@Oddin: So far you named one game where you saw aggressive scum. Now tell me the number of games where townies are agressive and compare for me.
Do you assume all scum is aggressive?

This is a good question.

it makes me feel like you were trying to get across the point of "look how town I am".

DING DING DING....how about all the times Scien as literally called himself town. Bam

Looking for a replacement for YamiJoey and YankCrane. Zazie will be replaced if he does not pick up his prod. I know he's been online >.>

She fails at life.

Will do. Not that good at the game yet, so I probably won't notice subtleties, and with probably be relying on the posts of the rest of you to point them out, but I'll do my best!

~Canada

Scumms gonna be pissed i replaced in

No worries, long as you read and post and try to reason things out you'll do fine. Just be sure to let us know if you're mafia, that helps simplify the game a lot.

EB where again did you say you’re mafia?

[Benmage]

Hmm. I don't think you intended to claim that you're town because you're aggressive; I think you were indeed just responding to a question. However, it provides a legitimate insight into your reasoning for playing so aggressively.

Does that make sense?

Legitimately wifom. Not only wifom, but wifom based on interpretation...which one could say, wifom based on wifom.

1) I noticed a worrying thing about hewitt. He's acting very cautiously, he says he doesn't want to vote until he's certain that someone should be lynched. All the while he says he feels there's nothing to comment on and that the farside/scien discussion hurt the game. He must have realised that good discussion and strong arguments won't just come out of the underbrush singing songs. They need to be made. If he's town, then it's in his best interest to try to get better arguments. Yet he's not doing such an effort. Fine, he's reluctant to use his vote for that end (although it could've been useful, I think) - but how about asking questions? He says he finds farside scummiest, but he doesn't question her, he doesn't try to push her, pin her down, anything of the sort, to get better arguments. He's not really pressing anyone else either. He seems content enough sitting in the corner.

This is damn good.. Well thought out. Correct even... its a shame you're scum and hes town. You're playing better.

2) At one point Fuzzy said he's going to reply to my questions just after he got an answer from farside. While the significance and relevance of these questions is lower now, it's still worthy to note that he didn't, actually, answer them at any point.

Did you ask it of him again? (prior to this statement)

4) Post 235 by Nik and the ensuing discussion is disturbing me quite a bit. He's answering instead of me for things directed specifically at me and defending me. This looks an awful lot like buddying.
It's okay if you're town and think farside's arguments against me are wrong - but I'd expect you to wait for me to answer before saying anything. Otherwise, you're basically handing me a defence. What if I'm scum and these statements by farside would've tripped me and caused me to slip up?
This is very poor scumhunting there.

AHAHA i cant believe i came across this again! (ok) The last part is true, only because you're scum and Nik (meh, we'll go with isnt at the moment(point is you two arent same scum team)) Now my point is hilarious. I just did this same sort've buddying..answering (obvious questions) for others in a recent game mini 842. Now i did so on a fellow town. Well scum and bad townies jumped all over me for doing so in some awful wifom buddying argument. Like you're doing here... Its just personally funny because you're scum and this is the second time i'm seeing scum use this argument in an attempt to push a case on a townie(opposing alignment). (scum should really stick to the lurker/active lurker strat...works well)

1. I feel that being overly agitated and annoyed over small and not so significant arguments is scummy. This is partly because I feel one wouldn't normally get so agitated over it, making me feel the agitation might be artificial and not genuine.
2. Town don't generally feel the need to assert their towniness without provocation, and don't implicitly or explicitly say "I'm town, I'm town" when it isn't called for. This isn't a "too towny" argument - far from it. There's a huge difference between "looking very townie" and "consciously trying to look very townie".

1. Can you show me where she was "overly agitated and annoyed" i really didnt get this huge aggressive feeling.
2. Wowwww. L2read Scien. I rescind EB+Oddin team. They're both scum but i forgot theres two teams. Scien+Oddin = a team. (Psssst Oddin, its good to read your partners posts and not merely skim them...hell a bus or two wouldnt hurt your cause either...but its too late for this game.)

It isn't, on its own, a terribly strong argument - because I can't, at this point, be sure that you're lying. It's a possibility to keep in mind. And it was important, IMO, for the rest of the town to be aware of the possibility. Knowing a new option is never a bad thing. People were given brains to decide for themselves whether that option is reasonable or not.

Also, I am not taking the "you must be scum approach". I'm taking the "you might be scum for all I know and this here could be a scummy thing to do" approach, which I take for everyone, naturally.

You say it's not scumhunting? Fine. Think so if you wish. In my personal opinion I'm doing quite enough scumhunting here.

Wah wah wah ( ) AtE much? There was another post of Oddins where all i felt was boohoo prior to the one i did point out. Now i wish i did for all 3 reference.

This guys trying to walk on eggshells and be switzerland too much.

9) Once again I would like you to pay attention how farside is making

much ado about nothing.

Ooo good play(musical?).

When a comment like I made can be skewed to be a interptation of hey look I'm agressive so I must be town or scum and you point to it as scum while saying all my points I made had merit but you find my aggression scummy because of another game I find you not to be scum hunting but using excuses to buy a vote.

Word, this.

That said, ODD is definitely scum. Farside/Scien cannot be in the same faction, but could still both be scum.

VOTE:ODDin

The first part of this quote which i didnt quote is bad. This part however is. True n True.

4. For your argument to be legitimate, you would have to actually go back and prove that no reasons exists (or are not arbitrarily fabricated) so that you can reason that it is truly an OMGUS vote. Damn, you think people would learn this in novice games.

RBT: Your idea is awful. Day 1 claim in this setup might not be bad, but it's not game winning and gives scum more information than town gains. Actually, it just gets worse the more I think about it.

Champ.

[Benmage]

1) I said something at the time you did it but I was still content with my vote on scien at the time.
2) yet your vote is still on me and you seem happy with your vote making it seem your "case" is more solid then it is.

Farside is owning oddin (alliteration?) in this exchange.

I'm having a very hard time getting my footing in this game. So much 'meh' to wade through. That's my problem, not your guy's. You guys aren't doing anything wrong.

This dudes dodgin eggshells too.

And isnt all the crap to wade through 50% his...Shouldn't he have most of it down, knowing his exhange and knowing farsides damn well too, thats like 85% of the thread right there...good excuse to start active lurk mode.

Vote: fuzzyman

Yes I have good reasoning and if you think hard enough you should be able to come to the conclusion as to why yourself. But in the chance that it could be used against me by scum I will withhold it for the moment.

As town, you're not supposed to make things a guessing game. You're supposed to make it easier for town to understand your arguments - so that they can analyse you more easily (and if you're town, that's a good thing for you) and so they can see whether they agree to those arguments themselves.

Even if you think your arguments aren't new, sharing them will at least make it clear what you think - what you agree with, what you don't agree with, etc. Later on in the game, it will help us analyse things since we'll know what you thought about people.

Oooh ooo i got something juicy...its comming to me. Okay. This is what, a town "definition" from you....Would you say you've acted this way? So this could i guess be...you subtly asserting you're towness. Aren't you accusing something quite similar to this on farside....

I bet that since I'm leading in votes right now, this'll be an OMGUS, too.

Vote: farside22

Or maybe it can be more buddying with ODDin, because he's incidentally voting for her too.

Buddying is wifom, both town and scum do it. Just call people dumb when they push the buddying case.

I am seeing Fuzzy as a likely scum; if so, 80% chance of ODDin buddy.

(We can see your AtE. It doesn't work here.)

Goddamnit! I dislike RBT, whys he gotta post logic.

Mae is skitting by without posting much.

Unvote; Vote Mae

Come back and play.

QFT

[Benmage]

Okay..its late, i'm goin to bed. Got about a third more to catchup. The games getting less wally and more juicy, i like .

Oranges and lemons said the bells of St Clements. ~ Hayl

[Benmage]

Benmage: I can live with you thinking I'm scum. What disturbs me quite a bit is that you seem certain that hewitt is town. Why is that? I'll admit to not reading everything you said yet (I shall eventually, don't worry), so perhaps you've explained it and I didn't see it. But why are you being so certain that hewitt is town?

It was an early gut read. I think i call him a VT. Mason still works. The mason thing and fuzzy flips makes me actually less sure of him. I'm not all the way caught up, and nothing is ever absolute in mafia. But i have a town read on the guy, yes.

[Benmage]

its a shame you're [me] scum and hes [hewitt] town

That's a pretty damn strogn statement for an "early gut read".

The early gut read remained with his continual play. He isn't nearly as strong town, as you are scum.

[Benmage]

Also, the argument isn't based on a different game.

Asserting one's towniness without provocation is a scum-tell.

The question at hand is whether your post on aggressive scum was, in fact, implied assertion of your towniness or not.

This is a misrepresentation. Farside's comment was a response to a question, not an unprovoked claim. Although extrapolation from it is interesting, it's largely WIFOM; pushing it this hard as a scum tell is bad. Condemning farside for being too aggressive countering your hard push of a weak argument is hypocrisy.

I went back over farside and although she's playing incredibly aggressive I don't see particular scum tells within it. I think people are more distracted with

how

she's presenting evidence than

what

she's saying. It does, however, mean that she needs to be taken in perspective.

Not to say I have a town read. I'm still not sure of the reasoning behind her aggressive play. But I don't see her as a good lynch today, if for no other reason than that she seems a useful nexus of discussion.

This is good. Yeah you and Oddin aint buddies for sure.

Hewitt's vote on Fuzzy and reasoning just looks opportunistic

My vote on Fuzzy isn't opportunistic at all. It's actually the most original and makes the most sense out of all votes on him right now, considering I'm a town Mason with him and although he's confirmed not Mafia I'm pretty damn sure he's a Werewolf.

this is your whole argument?

My vote on Fuzzy isn't opportunistic at all. It's actually the most original and makes the most sense out of all votes on him right now, considering I'm a town Mason with him and although he's confirmed not Mafia I'm pretty damn sure he's a Werewolf.

Probably don't need Monks to claim today.

UNVOTE;VOTE:Fuzzy

terrible.

We did not get a chance to talk pre-game. I don't really have particular reasoning to believe that Fuzzyman is scum but I'm getting nothing out of anybody else and since there's a theme in this game that one Mason is town and the other is scum and I know I'm town I have a 50% chance (I think) that he's werewolf. It had nothing to do with anybody pointing out my weak play I'm just insanely bored and there's nothing better to go on.

Oh my god, this is awful and unnecessary.

I think it might be correct in assuming that just because one Mason flips scum does not mean the other is confirmed town.

Well we got one town….o.O…

[Benmage]

If you havent caught on yet i'm reading a page and posting my notes on it...page 15 is cluttered with setup speculation. Nothing really worth commenting on...

Also, RBT, can you give us detailed and organised cases on myself and Fuzzy, containing ALL of your reasons for thinking that we are scum, individually and together? And if you're not intending to do so, can you explain why you're not intending to do so, and why you think it helps the town for you to accuse people without presenting your arguments against them?

Geeeeze this guy loves assigning work.

[Benmage]

Scien

how do you currently feel about Oddin. Did you happen to notice his point against farside wherein she gave a definition on how scum act, the opposite how she was acted so in a way subtly saying shes town. Yet Oddin made a definition of his own on how town should, which one could argue reflected subtly town onto himself. Double standard aye?

How about his clear statements of being against things like "I'm town" Which you've said, and which hes ignored.

[Benmage]

4) She suggests a pairing between me and you. The only thing I can comment on here is that

as a townie

, I can only assert that for my side of this 'pairing', its a mistaken view. However you could be scum and buddying to me for some reason. My opinion was that you were kind of objective, so I don't really see the buddying claim.

Oddin ignores again.

ODDin, what exactly do you want me to comment on? I can go reread it to derive meaning if you want me to, but it looked like a bunch of 'meh' to me. (I'm taking your advice and trying to start conversations that interest me, since I have having problems with the ones ongoing. Yes I know that this advice wasn't directed at me.)

Well, farside presented a case against me. I'd be happy if you said whether you agree with it or not (and why).

Why Scien specifically?

Why are you interested in where I stand in the you vs Farside discussion anyway? What does my opinions gain you? Are you looking for an ally? Are you wanting to stir Farside up? I kind of find it odd that I was polled here. Why am I so special?

^^Here’s the coaching

I want everybody's opinion, not only yours. You happened to catch my eye because you were posting at the moment, but haven't really said anything on this issue.

Phew, good save.

[Benmage]

Far

what do you think about Oddin disliking your roundabout town definition, when he himself gives one...He also plainly states his discord for people who make statements like"I'm town" and yet fails to comment on the several occurrences Scien does so.

[Benmage]

Far

what do you think about Oddin disliking your roundabout town definition, when he himself gives one...He also plainly states his discord for people who make statements like"I'm town" and yet fails to comment on the several occurrences Scien does so.

Part of that goes under my theory from day one of scien/oddin scum team.
Oddin keeps backing my "town" comment as aggressive = scum but only points to one game as an occurance of this which is shady.
I do garner more inquiry being as I'm more vocal then others.

Take a gander at this:

I notice that very few scum now how to be aggressive in the beginning of the game. They either followers, or they hem and haw or backtrack or make wishy washy comments. I don't go after the agressive person. typically scum watches, waits and doesn't do much else.

Could well be read as: look how extremely and terribly aggressive I'm being right now. Ergo: I'm not scum.

..............................................
So, I'm currently getting scummy vibes from farside, thus,

unvote, vote: farside

Later:

My original vote on you was based on two things:
1) You were far too annoyed and edgy over what seemed to be a not so strong argument. (It's not the argument itself which bothers me - it's the way you handled the discussion around it.)

2) One of your posts made me feel like you're trying to implicitly show how oh-very-town you are.

And here again:

Because I explained to someone why I find their nonagression scummy that makes is sound like I'm so towny? That makes no sense.

I think I've explained this several times already. You explained why scum aren't aggressive in games - a thing I don't really agree with, as I've seen scum playing aggressively in games - in a way that made me feel like you're attempting to imply "look, I'm playing exactly in the way in which, as I say, scum don't play". It's an interpretation. What you said could've been said in many ways, and from the way you worded it, it makes me feel like you were trying to get across the point of "look how town I am".

More:

This is a misrepresentation. Farside's comment was a response to a question, not an unprovoked claim. Although extrapolation from it is interesting, it's largely WIFOM; pushing it this hard as a scum tell is bad. Condemning farside for being too aggressive countering your hard push of a weak argument is hypocrisy.

What I'm saying is that it can be a veiled assertion of towniness.

I think I’ve made my point that Oddin didn’t like this subtle definition from farside, or roundabout logic that one could deduce by fars statement in believing far isn’t scum….lets continue:

INCOMING HYPOCRITICAL KILLER:

As town, you're not supposed to make things a guessing game. You're supposed to make it easier for town to understand your arguments - so that they can analyse you more easily (and if you're town, that's a good thing for you) and so they can see whether they agree to those arguments themselves.

Even if you think your arguments aren't new, sharing them will at least make it clear what you think - what you agree with, what you don't agree with, etc. Later on in the game, it will help us analyse things since we'll know what you thought about people.

Doesn’t this appear to be a “definition” of how town act. Doesn’t it seem like Oddin wants people to read this and see ‘oh hey, that’s how Oddin is acting’

Ergo: Oddin isn’t scum/is town

Let’s continue these fun finds of Oddin.

2. Town don't generally feel the need to assert their towniness without provocation, and don't implicitly or explicitly say

"I'm town, I'm town"

when it isn't called for. This isn't a "too towny" argument - far from it. There's a huge difference between "looking very townie" and "consciously trying to look very townie".

Got it!

However, as a

pro-town role

I have a duty to stay alive too.

4) She suggests a pairing between me and you. The only thing I can comment on here is that

as a townie

, I can only assert that for my side of this 'pairing', its a mistaken view. However you could be scum and buddying to me for some reason. My opinion was that you were kind of objective, so I don't really see the buddying claim.

Oddin ignores again.

How about these 2.

He clearly read them…right?

Anybody can make a tl;dr version of Scien's posts? There's no way I'll read all that. I'm too lazy.

I'm not sure how comfortable I am with a player who doesn't read everything in the game. It's mafia. We post a lot here. This isn't even close to really big walls of texts.

Pwned. Outta respect for the game I’ll withhold my vote until I finish catching up.

[Benmage]

Scien

where'd you go buddy...you're post in the thread next to this one, yet ignoring this one since i asked you questions about you and your scum buddy...tsk tsk.

[Benmage]

Oh and to ur other question:

Tell me do you see Scien sidestepping the point I'm making?

Which points specifically would you like me relook at? (if its past pg 17, i havent seen em yet.)

As a whole I think both of you are earnestly answering one another. The back n forth is draining to follow, but both of you seem committed. And i think you both are trying to fully explain your own agendas/PoV.

[Benmage]

Just for reference..what time zone you from?

[Benmage]

Back to the catchup grind:

Hello people, sorry bout that. You will find vote counts at the top of every page now. I'm going to replace Zazie, he has been picking up his prods but not posting. I am going to prod everyone because it is so close to deadline (it wont count to your 3 prods per game or you get replaced thingy).

Finally what a douchebag. I hope everyone sees how terrible zazier is. Nearly ruined a game of mine near endgame for refusing to participate. Yet picking up prods, and finally leaving refusing to play with us. For no apparent reason.

*Sighs* Okay well I reread the entire game and it actually was a lot more interesting than it was when I was just stopping in and checking new posts. It might've helped that I actually read through all the little walls of text. From about the quarter point of the game until up to a little after halfway I had the feeling that I was going to be voting Electric Badger after I was finished. I kept getting the sense that all he was doing was stirring the pot but not in a way that I feel to be pro-town.

Yo word hes deff scum.

I just feel like this was all very fake. Very fake reasoning and an easy way out. Look here, this last game I was screwed by lurkers so in this game I'm not going to let that happen. You don't carry over previous games into the next one and the little emotional appeal with being touchy over lurkers just feels fake to me.

QFT. Well done hew.

The question would be “Who is your deadline vote and why?”

Vote: Fuzzyman

Nooooo...(i guess i might be somewhat jaded reading fuzzy knowing his alignment)

[Benmage]

Then allow me to expand that question to everybody:

Who is your deadline vote?

NO town player would ask that question.

The question would be “Who is your deadline vote and why?”

Vote: Fuzzyman

Oop meant to say....this reads more or less the same to me...the why, can either be assumed, or if fuzzy was going for a quick answer and just names who cares...i can view this as a town question for sure.

[Benmage]

Caught up threw D1. Hooray, almost done.

The whole purpose of my asking is to try and use our lynch before it gets taken away by the deadline. Furthermore, I think it is to be expected that people say why when they answer, whether or not I ask it specifically. I'd inquire about the reasons for their choice if they didn't.

This is easily viewable.

Your question asking if anybody disagreed was not relevant at all and shouldn't have even be asked. No town player asks questions like that without 1) clearly answering it themselves and 2) providing an opposition to one side of the argument. You just asked it to stir up pointless arguments.

I disagree completely… “pointless argument”…come on its about who’d they lynch at the last minute…gets everyones view/statement on paper before time runs out. I think it was good. If you cant see it, tis a matter of opinion. (An obvious one for the side I’m on imo, but to each his own.)

And I hate myself a little more because hewitt's argument against EB is really good. I also find the RBT argument too contrived and based on theory rather than alignment indicative reasons.

Unvote; Vote EB

It was/is!!

No town person would say shit like this. It’s beating somebody else to an argument that they would have against you and it’s WAY too over-defensive. Defending yourself from possibly forthcoming attacks is not something a town player does. It’s what scum does to cover their bases.

It sounds more like a sentence dunked in sarcasm, and still dripping it, intended to add to the AtE before it, rather than trying to cover his bases to me.

Mmm..gonna go ahead and say go me. cause this comment is true, and from my predecessor.

[Benmage]

Okay so as of right now I'm definitely still retaining all my previous thoughts on Electric Badger from Day 1. Right now he's my #1 scum suspect, I think he played a really manipulative game yesterday and it would not surprise me at all if he was scum.

I found Scien asking for someone to hammer at the end on RBT was incredibly scummy, especially looking in hindsight as he flipped town. I never really understood the wagon on him to begin with I thought it was pretty damn crappy and forced.

I also don't like Maemuki. It's the subtle little way he bounces around and around in his posts and never really comments on anything descriptively enough to be any help.

All 3 of these are viable.

I found Scien asking for someone to hammer at the end on RBT was incredibly scummy, especially looking in hindsight as he flipped town. I never really understood the wagon on him to begin with I thought it was pretty damn crappy and forced.

Did you ever try to stop the crappy and forced wagon? If so, please reference it...if not, please explain why.

Also, please explain why Scien's vote was scummy and yours on Fuzzy wasn't, as both suspects flipped town.

touche, but you(hewitt) are dealing with scum here...soooooo

Your main antagonists yesterday were Wulfy, Fuzzy and me. Particularly from my point of view, not a really great track record.

Wowwww look at this man. Trying to get you off your game. Totally scummy. Town gotta keep at it, stick to their guts, and not relent. Even with a few mislynches. (so your 1st read was bad, all the more likely that 2nd one is correct)

Farside

@ Post 474 Scien does seem to flipflop. Good catch, bad for Scien.

That flip that you are complaining about, is me in full honesty switching my views in mid post as I attempted to post why Fuzzy was the better lynch. Going through my points trying to argue for Fuzzy's lynch, I changed my mind.

I didn't try and hide the change in attitude, in fact I explicitly said in the post you are quoting that I changed my stance.

IMO this WIFOM case that I am scum and decided that I should switch from a 'avoid the townie stance' to a 'Oh actively lynch a townie' stance is a bit silly. Not only that, but the person I was voting, and attempting to argue was the better lynch was also killed and flipped townie. If you honestly think I was avoiding voting for a townie at that point... why was my vote on a townie, and why was I trying to get others to lynch that townie?

You don't have to believe everything I say. But trying to claim that when I was voting Fuzzy it was because I was afraid of voting a townie, is silly.

You want to try, 'Well maybe he was actively going for any townie with pressure on them'? You would have a better complaint there I think, however still wrong, and still WIFOM.

Changing ones mind is fair and reasonable enough. But this last part is still something we can consider. A lot of cases fall into wifom. It aint the best defense, nor the best case, but something to consider. Especially weighed in and in conjunction with everything else you’ve done. I don’t think it’s a stretch nor to farfetched to see you fishing for any town lynch.

Canada has requested replacement. I will find one for him. I want more postage.

How’s the delivery?

I am happy with the delivery. Keep it up ~ Hayl

[Benmage]

still not happy with scien's response. Calling it another battle and more WIFOM is just a way to down play the scum move.

Word.

I agree it looks like he's sidestepping.


ANYWHOOSE I'm all caught up!

Go me. Hi5's everyone. Best replacement ever? Think so.

So lets wait for this scien and oddin return.

Everyone else if ya got any questions fire away. I had planned on make some conclusion points, a player analysis maybe...Doesn't seem to necessary at the moment with the juicy info in front of us.

[Benmage]

I found Scien asking for someone to hammer at the end on RBT was incredibly scummy, especially looking in hindsight as he flipped town. I never really understood the wagon on him to begin with I thought it was pretty damn crappy and forced.

Did you ever try to stop the crappy and forced wagon? If so, please reference it...if not, please explain why.

Also, please explain why Scien's vote was scummy and yours on Fuzzy wasn't, as both suspects flipped town.

touche, but you(hewitt) are dealing with scum here...soooooo

So...what? It's okay if he lies, as long as he does it to kill off people you want dead?

No, your point was good. He should've argued against the crappy wagon if thats how he felt. My point is that, you're scum.

I get the feeling, throughout your reading, that you've already latched onto a couple people from the start and are just trying to cover your bases after the flips - the only reason for the walls of text is to have a handy reference to point at that you accused the scum at some point - but I'm reasonably sure you've called everyone scum so far, and they're so broad and ambiguous they don't help town much.

Anyways, please explain exactly why you so blithely absolve hewitt.

I dont think I've accused everyone as being scum. I may have pointed out anti-town behavior and scummy things but i certainly havent named everyone scum. Infact I only named You Scien and Oddin scum. But I can understand the corner you're backed into and you're attempt at misrepresenting what i've said.

How about the point i just presented about Oddin, nothing to comment on?

[Benmage]

Right well since I'm all caught up

lynch preference is:
Oddin
Eb
Scien

vote Oddin

[Benmage]

You guys saying that I am dodging this post is laughable. I have been answering it ad nausium. Stretch much? What exactly am I dodging Farside and Benmage? What point of yours have I not addressed? Would you list it out? I am trying my best to explain my thoughts. At this point I don't think its a fault of mine that you can't understand me.

Nonono...Noone is saying your dodging the post or the question. That is an obvious misconception. Even sidestepping may be inccorrectly inferred. You aren't sidestepping the post, you are sidestepping the issue by writing it off as wifom.

I answer this is in the bottom of post 569. Its pointless to keep at this. You and Farside need to stop beating points over and over.

[Benmage]

If indeed you guys are going to lynch me over this crap (and it is crap, you don't have points as much as you have possible motives with no backing), I urge you to take a good look around you. Oddin is not cleared by my flip. Farside isn't either. It is common from what I have seen to get into a 'Well she pushed that townie so hard... she wouldn't do that as scum'. You make sure you really believe that statement if you are going to let her slide for this.

This is true. This is why I think a post from everyone listing all the players ranging from scummiest to town may be in order.

Theres 2 scum teams. I'm damn certain there is 2 scum in Oddin, Scien, and EB...hell i think i pinned it well enough that all 3 could be. SO who am I looking at for the 4th? Well yeah thats a tougher one...but atleast we have a start to start eliminating some, and nk's will maybe clear up some other things. A policy lynch may be in order.

Also was xofelf proded/with us? I know nothing of her nor that slot other than a little bit of crap from Zazier....Kinda really reallly reallllly bad.

Oddin is todays lynch. Mayyyybe EB. That case hew made against him is dead on, and my whole read the guy screamed scum.

[Benmage]

Scien

what do you think of EB.

[Benmage]

Not much of a corner, tbh, when even you aren't voting me. And not much of a dodge. More than one scum team here even if you were right - but you're not really looking for scum anyways, I think, just trolling for what people will jump at.

Lol, this is bad attempt to ignore everything i've said/done. Whats the point of sayin "more than one scum team here even if you were right"??

I'd sure be worried if I was scum coasting in a game with a couple in active players and a replacements comes blazzing in and lists me in the top 3 scum suspects, especially when you have a great case already laid out on you the day before. (And yeah thats right, i said you've been coasting...active lurking, call it what you want its scummy and so are you.)

What point about ODDin? That he didn't jump at Scien's townie comments, or that he identified lack of votes/views as anti-town? That was the last comment about him I see. A weak tell and a null tell, imo, not the amazing insight you seem to bill your commentary as.

Massive inconsistencies and double standard. What stronger things do you see to go on for today? Who are your top suspects?

WHY have you ignored the sooo obvious lurkers

, when you went on that lynch all lurkers rant. This was obvious bullshit to write off some quick excuse for your goddawful 2nd vote.

[Benmage]

Also why is it you completely ignore oddin or even scum huntting till someone calls you out or it's close to day end?

Lynch me then. I'm done arguing with you. At this point my lynch might give you more information over others anyway. I think you should start with ODDin... but if you are so freaking sure your view is right that you won't even listen to me, then meh.

YEs, Oddin or EB will be better....you two to your own corners!

[Benmage]

@Mod

its been 7 days since xofelf has posted please prod.

Also I think Nik warrants a prod in about an hr, so please note.

[Benmage]

Holy hell, this thing is growing like insanely fast. I'll do my best to catch up completely, but it will take me some time...

You were caught up through pg 22. Just focus on comments revolving you, and that glaring issue i brought up.

If i did the whole thread as extensively as illustrated in 3 1/2 days i'm sure you can manage a page or 2.

This excuse wont buy you much time.

[Benmage]

Hah. Whatever.

Your guys comments are both bad for this game. Its going nowhere, and is flooding the thread causing continual inactivity/difficult to catch and allows others, namely EB to get by with active coasting.

So both just stop talking to one another. Pause, let others weigh in on the issues at hand. Talk about some other issue, and come back to one another in a day or 2...its only a little into D2 right....

[Benmage]

Blazing? Zounds. The theme of this game has been godawful cases in long walls of text that are very *yawn*. I'm keeping up, but there's not much worth commenting on, and what is gets lost in the sea of inanity. It's hard NOT to be sidelined in this monstrosity, and continuing to press lurkers would be hypocritical at this point. I'm letting the current trolling run its course with the hope we can resume proper scum hunting tomorrow. Isn't Hewitt's case against me, which you jumped aboard, based on the fact I commented on the farside/scien dispute? ...though it seems to be going on fine without me, so not sure how I manipulated that.

This is a pathetic excuse to write off your actions. You can skim my posts, and focus on what was about you, but it sounds like you read em anyways. I agree scien/farside interactions can push others away from the thread, and my posts certainly didnt help in that spectrum. But you are actively lurking, if not just down right lurkin beforehand. And yeah pressing lurkers would be hypocritical of you. Because it would be the pot callin the kettle black, i.e. you are just as guilty(if not more guilty, because you claimed to hate this) .

And no the points from Hew that I liked had nothing too majorly concerned with commenting on the far/scien dispute, but the way in which you carried yourself/basically played the game.

Intrigued by all your recent injunctions for players to comment on one another. I thought I was supposed to be the manipulator?

Asking peoples opinions directly on issues is manipulation? Man have you guys got this game turned upside down.

[Benmage]

That would be why I didn't respond to her points. Just so you know.

I know, good. Post 585, occurred in the mush...what do you think of EB?

[Benmage]

@EB

Ah I meant to ask. "Resume scum hunting tomorrow"

Is that an ingame day or a real life day?

[Benmage]

Ben - presumably game days, although hopefully earlier if the walls stop and something real emerges. So far not much to comment on...hardly anyone is even bothering to vote at this point, so I don't think I'm alone in this.

Wow...you want to write of an entire game day, arguably one of the more important ones with the town sitting 5-4. Baffled.

unvote vote ElectricBadger

And yeah we have Scien/farside bickering endlessly.

Me, finally caught up and trying to pressure people.

Oddin "catching up"

xofelf's character non existent

Nik worthy of a prod. (reading)

Hewitt also off the radar, worthy of a prod in some 4 hrs...

Mae contributing very little, now V/LA...

And you actively resigning....

Man do i feel bad for Hayl.

The walls have slowed. I'm done catching up, and even towards the end as the info per page lessened so did the size of my posts. Scien and Far maybe, finally got it through their heads that the circular quote wars are detrimental to the game.

Your play, or refusal to play is down right detrimental and worthy of a lynch on policy alone. I'll gladly lose to the player playing the game than the one refusing to. Do what you signed up for.

[Benmage]

Let me see what you were suggesting about him.
On your catchup you said something along the lines that you didn't like that he placed a real vote on Nik even though he didn't support LaL. I don't really agree with your point here.

So you think his vote on someone who hadn't post while the thread wasnt even open for 24hrs, and than goes on an anti-lurker lynch rant to even link a different game holds weight. Fine, agree to disagree.

You suggested later in your catchup that you thought he was trying to look overly townie due to him talking about lurkers and whatnot. Meh, maybe, but I never really thought that was much of a tell without more evidence.

So alone null. (I forget this exact point myself i'd have to relook at my own wording)

He at one point said his initial vote was barely more than random. I think this was after he removed it, but I can go back and check if you want. I tend to agree, at the time his vote was placed, he seemed pretty serious about it. Later in the day it was more like he minimalized it.

So you agree with me that he sorta wavered here. He certainly opened the day defending his (2nd vote btw) strongly. Saying LaL, ruined a game of his...links the game, etc etc. Later he calls it barely better than random. Check Check, this is certainly something to note.

You caught some of what I found in ISO and talked about above, about funny views on the Farside/me fight in day one.
You suggested today that the inconsistencies of ODDin should have been more of an issue for EB, and I agree. Again he seems to be minimalizing.

Indeed I wanted to focus ODDin and still have my question lingering for him. EB's statements continual to baffle me, and i am more than happy to have be todays lynchee.

Am I missing something else you would like me to comment on?

Other than his minimalistic play, hes hypocritically acting the way he supposedly hates. Lurking.

You call him slightly negative. Who do you find scummier? Hell a player analysis from everyone on everyone ranging from scummiest to town would be ideal imo.

[Benmage]

Also, you still haven't explained why it was okay for Hew to lie. It's a bit silly to accuse me of not posting cases while you dodge them.

Where did i miss this?

Where did hew lie?

Where did I say it was ok for hew to lie(which seems like i would've if your implying now that i need to explain it)

And I'm on the others for being inactive/asking for prods...but they aren't throwing their hands in the air and saying i'm done for today, like you did. And ya backtrack all you want.

[Benmage]

Point 4 isn't about others. You and him need to stop the deflection. It is about him. He claimed to hate what he is. I'm not arguing the whole day. The end of D1 his play faltered. The opening of D2 he did very little until i started probing him.

Point 5 could be him being inconsistent. As a sworn enemy of all lurkers, he's failed to keep on top of his job.

[Benmage]

Okay... and this failure suggests what? Being an early anti-lurker then lurking (I still don't think he was lurking but ok) makes him scum? Even if he was lurking, I don't see how becoming a lurker is scummy. Even if they are hardcore against lurkers things in life happen.

You think otherwise?

Its hypocritical of him. Being a hypocrite is really really bad in my book. Something I think people strive to avoid.

If he isn't being a hypocrite than his whole crusade against the LaL's in defense of his 2nd vote really held no weight, and he was just looking for any sort of meager defense to respond to the accusations on his "weak" 2nd vote.

By the way i think it is the second point. That he was making excuses for his 2nd vote and really isn't the crusader against lurkers.

All in all its another strike against him.

A player analysis to see your opinions would go a long way. I'll lead to illustrate how to do so if you're unfamiliar...its fairly simple, although i'm goin to the gym now, so gimmie 1-2 hours

[Benmage]

Here, I’ll go first. These aren’t meant to be perfect, nor concrete; just a simple question with a simple answer to summarize your current feelings on the player base without having to do research. Just off of what you already know and have read. It’ll give us a base of where people are and can lead to further discussion as people question one another’s perspectives.

In order of the 1st page.

Nikanor

: Off the top of my head, not a strong read on this guy. Nothing has overtly stuck out in either direction of being town or scum. Would like more from him, might reread my own notes on him, or an iso of him. He said he was “catching up” and needs to be prodded.

Hewitt

: I had a decent early gut town read on him. Since I’ve seen his scum play and it was drastically different from this. It’s a personal meta, so take it at that. Since then I have seen some real “?” activity. I didn’t think fuzzy was all to scummy, I didn’t see a reason for the mason claim especially on D1. When I first heard the masons claimed and fuzzy flipped protown mason my head exploded in wifom mush of would hew kill his partner or wouldn’t he. I’m leaning towards wouldn’t but who knows, my head explodes if I ponder this too long. I think he made really good points against EB ending D1. Slight town read.

Maemuki

: Do I need to comment? There isn’t much to comment on. She’s a terrible player. Completely coasting through the game. She is however acting relatively the same way I saw her in a previous game in which she was town. Shes just a bad player. That said it is no excuse and impossible to read, definitely concern and might warrant a policy lynch.

Scien

: At first glance I got a scum gut read. Since then his banter with farside has seemed genuine on both accounts. I’ve seen some good posts, and some “?” posts. The banter itself in my opinion has been more detrimental to the game than beneficial. His wifom defense is valid, but so is a wifom case compounded with other things. I can see him an Oddin as a scum team. Or him even scum alone. Mediocre scum read.

ElectricBadger

: Very scummy. His whole play reeks of it if you ask me. That’s how it reads to me, take that how you will. His whole LaL spew and 2nd vote was pathetic. His mid game commentary was nothing special, and looked coaster-ish. End D1 and early D2 he lurked/actively lurked until I applied pressure. He even went so far as to forfit scumhunting for today…I mean really…need I say more, lynch him. Of course he’s backtracking that statement since I hounded him for it. For hating lurkers so zealously he has done nothing save early game to demonstrate this sentiment. He is most obviously scum to me and should be considered the #1 lynch candidate at this junction.

farside22

: Has played a very active good game. Accused of being “overly aggressive” by many. That’s null to me as a matter of opinion…I think I play aggressive, and I wouldn’t call her play aggressive. Has swarmed the thread with ridiculous excessive banter with Scien. Very unnecessary, and is distracting herself as she has admitted to not seeing things I’ve brought to light. The overall read is slight town at best. This is a tough read, and I could see it biting me in the ass. I want to see more from her that doesn’t involve Scien.

ODDin

: Has played a relatively strong game. Got an early gut scum read tho, and have maybe exercised extra scrutiny in his posts. He’s active which is a check (except recently when I have question him, which is a minus). He stressed a point against farside for sometime and yet commited the same fault in my eyes. He also fails to question Scien on obvious matter, and either isn’t paying close enough attention to his posts… (why wouldn’t he?...maybe he’s skimming his partners posts) Since he’s claimed that the walls aren’t too big and as mafia one must read all. There is a question lingering for him, and I am totally for his lynch as well. I’d put him as #2 behind EB at the moment.

XofElf

(Rep. CSL Rep. ZazieR): Who? Oh Xofelf….right? Well…Zazier was garbage. Pointless questions. Null read. CSL, nothing. Xofelf, nothing. This is absurd and absolutely detrimental to the game. She needs to catchup asap, be replaced, or lynched. And I’m dead serious about lynching her. Inactivity ruins games. I am against all lurkers, and have been since they’ve cost me games, and I could cite a plethora of games to support this. You wont see me, like EB back off lurkers, or lurk myself.


All right well...here it is... I think everyone should follow my lead/style. It'll give us a good grasp on where everyone stands.

[Benmage]

If I did most of this by memory I dont' remember much about most of the people in the game.
Frankly between Oddin using WIFOM to vote, scein backtracking comments, EB lurking comments to non lurking. zazie asking question and being all replacements so far being less then stellar. I don't have a read on anyone else without going back and rereading.
Heck till you showed up I didn't even remember YJ/Canada who never said much of anything of interest in the game.

Well than write that. Say neutral-no read, like i did with Nik...

Maybe things are easier for me since i just did a read through so things are relatively fresh. Feel free to read back if you like.

My point was for us to list our general feelings and sentiments on everyone...Not simply building a case or anything real concrete with quotes and links, but just general sentiment on all to use as a base and a launching off point.

[Benmage]

Now if you just want a scum list it's real simple

Agreed it was easier to list the scum suspects..do your best with the others.

EB's vote on hew is shitty imo. I think i'll tackle that eventually.

[Benmage]

My point was for us to list our general feelings and sentiments on everyone...Not simply building a case or anything real concrete with quotes and links, but just general sentiment on all to use as a base and a launching off point.

I think backing up my reason's with quotes is helpful that way people can see I'm not just spouting drivel that has no fact behind it.

Yeah thats the next step where discussion and inquiry can go...i quote everything.. This is just off your head/memory sentiment.

[Benmage]

Nice job scien. A little ironic you left out my lingering question on Oddin in both of our summaries, but i did ask for them to be brief.

As far as my interactions with Mae...there hasnt been any, i just joined the game and she is V/LA...from her play my only read is that shes bad, and could warrant a policy lynch if others are for this so am i. Her badness makes her impossible to read, thus quite the liability.

The YJ/Mae/Wulfy exchange..i'd have to go back and read, as well as Nik's statement.

[Benmage]

The Haylen needs a break Vote count

Hewitt - ElectricBadger
Scien - Farside22
Farside22 - Scien
ElectricBadger - Benmage

Not Voting: Nikanor, Hewitt, Maemuki, ODDin, XofElf

Lots of love
Haylxxx

Nice job scien. A little ironic you left out my lingering question on Oddin in both of our summaries, but i did ask for them to be brief.

As far as my interactions with Mae...there hasnt been any, i just joined the game and she is V/LA...from her play my only read is that shes bad, and could warrant a policy lynch if others are for this so am i. Her badness makes her impossible to read, thus quite the liability.

The YJ/Mae/Wulfy exchange..i'd have to go back and read, as well as Nik's statement.

Based on this set up and the possible scenario's I'm going with the assumption that there is 2 wovles and 2 mafia. If this a fact we mislynch with 9 players and then it's just a battle between 2 scum factions for who wins.
In a nutshell I'm against policy lynches based on this possible scenario.

Right right right...today would be a bad position with 0 mafia dead to call for one...She still shouldnt be overlooked..that said. Vote EB !??!

[Benmage]

---

As for your lingering question to ODDin, I didn't see it explicitly. I assume you are talking about the suggestion that he is ignoring aspects of my play that he should question? I can't see the motive for that, although I know what you are getting at. I think you need to ask him, because him ignoring me truly doesn't make sense to me.

I have asked him...and suddenly he goes inactive. He also is guilty of the exact same thing he was accusing farside...giving a definition of town, that could be referenced to his own play.

I guess in abstract though either:
A) Both of us are on the same anti-town team, and therefore are ignoring each other. This is not the case, but is what you suspect at the moment it seems.
But that's all speculation. I think I would lean with D, but you guys are thinking A. Well. Sure think what you want. But make sure you realize that in this game type the anti-town roles aren't out against just the town.

Yes A to a degree is what i believe.

[Benmage]

i'm not saying you aren't reading his posts....in fact i hint as possible coaching from you towards him.. I'm saying maybe hes skimmed your posts.

Post 557 clearly illustrates the ones hes ignored....You didnt read it?

[Benmage]

557:
I have commented on the whole Farside 'vague townie suggestion' claim verses me explicitly saying that I was townie thing you mentioned first. It does seem a contradiction I agree. You keep using the phrase 'double standard' but that doesn't fit. He has no reason to hold me to another standard over any other people than his scum team.

He isnt holding you to a double standard? lol?? how would that make any sense...he made a case on farside and committed the same fault himself, thats the double standard.

"Doesn’t it seem like Oddin wants people to read this and see ‘oh hey, that’s how Oddin is acting’ Ergo: Oddin isn’t scum/is town" -- IMO seems like as much of a stretch as when ODDin tried to pull that claim off.

Thats the point, oddin is a hypocrit

But he truly didn't mention my townie claims at all. Not a peep. You are correct there. You are just wrong about the motives for that ignore.

we will see...i see no logical reason for him to complain to one player, make a bold statement about himself, and fail to comment on you.

So. You currently suspect EB more that ODDin or me? It seems that with the inconsistencies of ODDin, and your 'hypocrisy=scum tell' stance, that that should be pretty damning, but you are pushing EB. Why is this?

I'm for eithers lynch, and to be honest would vote you if there was enough backing...that said i dont think there is, i think you the least scummy of the 3, and dont see you as a viable lynch for today. I think there is ample evidence to get either EB or Oddin lynched today. I initially wanted Oddin, but after Eb folded up his hands...well he surpassed Oddin. Regardless i'm for either to see hung, will campaign against both, and am willing to see either lynched. I dont want this day to goto deadline and have another horrible speed lynch. That was completely anti-town by all players of this game, and just horrible to witness.

I also would still like to have an answer for what you said I was dodging in your post 570. In my opinion I was trying to answer the concerns as best I could. What exactly was I dodging in YOUR opinion?

Let me look this up, fairly certain i never said you dodged anything.

[Benmage]

Let's try that again, even though you guys are going to spin it:
You keep using the phrase 'double standard' but that doesn't fit. He has no reason to hold me to another standard over any other people than his scum team.

Assuming he is scum.

It isnt u! He called Farside bad for one thing, and did the same fault...thats a double standard no?....you arent involved in the double standard thing!!

[Benmage]

As for post 570:

I actually answer my own statement in the bottom of post 569.

You re-ask the question in 578,

and I reanswer it in 581.

Any more questions on the issue, after you read these(again?) feel free to let me know.

[Benmage]

!??!? What feelings do you think i'm suggesting about him vs you??

Let me say this slowly again....yoooooooooooooouuuuuuuuuuu arentttttttttt innnnnnnnnvvvvvooooooooooollllllvvveeeeedd in the dbl standard.

The double standard is between farside and himself.

He holds farside guilty for one action, that he himself commits..

geeeeeze.

[Benmage]

Thats the point, oddin is a hypocrit

You missed the point. I think you saying "Doesn’t it seem like Oddin wants people to read this and see ‘oh hey, that’s how Oddin is acting’ Ergo: Oddin isn’t scum/is town" is as much of a stretch as when ODDin tried pulling that off on Farside. I think you are guilty of the same stretch that ODDin was. I didn't see the motive ODDin was claiming Farside had. I don't see the motive you claim ODDin had there.

My motive isnt to call him scum for this if thats what you are suggesting. My motive is to call him a hypocrite...now if hypocrites are scum, as yet to be talked about.

i see no logical reason for him to complain to one player, make a bold statement about himself, and fail to comment on you.

I gave you D. You believe A. Both are logical. Actually so are B and C, I just don't personally believe them. But I get what you are saying. You think that D is not logical? Please tell me why.

B/C are a joke. D is logical in that it is sound, but so is A. Compound A with other things, and I believe it more. Regardless the outcome of both A n D is Oddin is scum, and hes on the lynch before you....sooo, the whole point is relatively null, Oddin needs to die.

It isnt u! He called Farside bad for one thing, and did the same fault...thats a double standard no?....you arent involved in the double standard thing!!

OOOOH. I completely read you wrong. I thought you were saying he was holding me and Farside to a different standard. You are just making the hypocrite claim again. Nevermind... ignore me >.<

, i almost thought i was going mad

[Benmage]

I disagree with this Hew. I've seen games where you vote around a whole lot more than you have this game. Sure it can be wifom and you can say those votes you wanted to lynch in every incident. And right now i dont care to cipher through to see if this holds weight (yet). But your lack of votes is uncharacteristic...maybe you havent sunk your teeth into the game...we'll see.

Well yes lol but I was scum in that game keep in mind.

Indeed, but dont think i wont look up more games hence the (yet). But yeah from my personal game experience your scum play was totally different than this play. Thats why i gave you the early VT read....and you turned out to be a mason...if you flip town, close enough read from me aye

[Benmage]

I skimmed through the last couple of posts because it seems like more useless farside v. Scien arguments again.

Vote: ElectricBadger

I honestly cannot see any possible scenario where EB is not part of a scum faction.

Indeed, but you might want to relook at my sexy Oddin question for being an inconsistent hypocrite, if you missed it.

And yes, EB is absolutely scum.

@Mod Votecount PLz

Look at the top of the page and add the votes since ~ Hayl

[Benmage]

@Votecount

Farside/Scien. Quit being dumbasses. Neither of you are todays lynch because there just isn't enough support in either direction. After todays lynch/reveal and tonights outing we can go into tomorrow, and if need be rehash some of this monstrosity.

In the mean time, both of you have listed EB as scum....so enough giggly gagging( ) and vote him.

[Benmage]

"In the mean time, both of you have listed EB as scum....so enough giggly gagging and vote him."

How much to lynch today? 5? With me being the 4th vote and L-1? Ok, fine. But that doesn't mean I wouldn't like to here Nik chime in on the events so far this day, or to actually hear a

real

defense from EB.

Unvote
Vote: EB

Agreed. Nik should at the very least post before any1 hammers.

Something from Mae would be nice, but shes V/LA...anything from Xoelf would be welcomed as well.

And Oddin, who played an active game and has since fallen of the radar is total bullshit. I get it...he'll kill me tonight but still.

unvote

so this doesn't get sped through. I want my questions answered.

[Benmage]

And were the hell is Oddin

I tied him up using christmas lights and locked him in a closet. I will let him out once I get my ransom money...damn...shouldn't have said that... ~ Hayl

[Benmage]

sigh......looks like we are stalled anyways until Nik/Xo weigh in....and this'll eatup some of Mae's V/LA.

[Benmage]

Also, for the record, I'd like to say that I liked Benmage better when he was forced to post in Shakespearean.

haha

[Benmage]

24 hrs...not one post...zzzzz

[Benmage]

I think we're waiting on ODDin/Xofelf/Mae to bring anything to the table...

And maybe a vote from Nik.

EB should be L-2...i unvoted cause i really want to hear from ODDin. After that i'm ready to let him hang even without the other 2. Not sure whens Mae's V/La is up...and still nothing from Xofelf....terrrrrible.

[Benmage]

I think the list was pretty strong and a decent stance from his PoV. I dont agree with everything. I do however enjoy some of the support.

Uhm for more concrete things on ODDin. There is what a appears to be a double standard between himself and farside as as well as obvious statements by Scien that he blatantly ignores, after condemning Mae for not being able to read everything.....Now there's this out of the blue lurkerness once some pressure is applied to him. (i understand rl...but wow was this timing "convenient"). I think he comes back thursday or friday....so we twiddle our thumbs till saturday.

@MOD

Xofelf whats the deal?

[Benmage]

Meh, he said he'd be trying to read bits and pieces...so if hes trying to stay caught up, good. We'll give him the benefit of the doubt, and even wait till Saturday so if he didnt have time to catchup he will...after that..we give him hell .

[Benmage]

*added note: Oddin is responding to his other game all day today and ignoring us.
Any thoughts on this?

Oh word..i'll look at that..thats dick

[Benmage]

Meh, he said he'd be trying to read bits and pieces...so if hes trying to stay caught up, good. We'll give him the benefit of the doubt, and even wait till Saturday so if he didnt have time to catchup he will...after that..we give him hell .

I would too had I not noticed he was active in his other game and responding there.
It's lurkerish especially as he's being questions and grilled but ignoring it all. I'm not overly fond of people asking for a possible replacement because they are not as active just leaves a bad taste.

Ya grrrr....i dont want to tip toe on the lines and rules of mentioning other games....but maybe others should simply lookup Oddin on search and do their own research.

Lets just say hes tomorrows lynch, just based of the disrespect for this game, and the

purposeful

disregard to post in this game.

[Benmage]

Aside from the fact I disagree with several of your picks, Nik, I'm more than a little astonished that three of your four scum are only there by elimination or on the word of others. Not sure how you can have such solid town reads in a game where not a single scum has died, and yet you're apparently willing to carry out a fairly critical lynch without any of your own reasoning.

He's actually not voting you. But I agree, he should be.

[Benmage]

Whats wrong with some of Nik's read...sure they're repetitive reads, but that doesnt fault them...especially when its coming from someone whose catching up in the game.

The Scien/Farside read is relatively standard(save differing town/scum opinions)

The Mae read was actually quite different, but seems to be more a gut read of his.

He lists the quick points against EB. So....

His reasons against ODDin are most strong! not really...but still i already re-highlighted for him.

Has everyone even made the player analysis i asked for?

Has EB?

[Benmage]

I think the list was pretty strong and a decent stance from his PoV.

What was strong about it? It's filled with gut reads and suspicions without evidence.

The player analysis werent meant to give evidence but rather illustrate stances, and in that sense i think he did so effectively...thus i used "strong" and his "PoV".

Whats wrong with some of Nik's read...

He lists the quick points against EB. So....

He also dismisses them as evidence, but states he's willing to lynch just based on the opinions of others, which is horrid at any point but especially when town barely outnumbers scum. Pure distancing.

He doesn't dismiss them. He uses the word 'aside'...that means he recognizes those as scummy behavior, but i guess not enough on their own...but he still suggests hes for the lynch based off those supporting it...which is viable. Note he isnt voting.

Has everyone even made the player analysis i asked for?

Has EB?

Hmm? What did you want analyzed?

A player analysis. A quick overview, or opinion on all the living players in the game. So we can read where you stand. It doesn't need to be concrete or evidenced backed. Just something brief we can see and understand and maybe spur discussion/inquiry after wards.

Like what i did, what Scien did..what Nik just did...sorta what farside did.

[Benmage]

I just gave a short brief on the 4 I find the scummiest. I started the longer one but keeping things brief doesnt' seem to be in my nature.

so it seems

[Benmage]

^^ This made me chuckle.

So great you listed some names...didnt even attempt to give anything brief...but okkkk.... Lets build from there.

What have i done to be written down as "def scum"??

[Benmage]

^^ This made me chuckle.

So great you listed some names...didnt even attempt to give anything brief...but okkkk.... Lets build from there.

What have i done to be written down as "def scum"??

EB has a point about nik's post. It is supar and lack luster when it comes to a real reason for finding someone scum.

But one can understand where he stands in the game. Sure his reads aren't back by much foundation. But now we know that...we know certain reads aren't the most concrete. Anyways whats wrong with his reason for believing his scum picks?

[Benmage]

^^ This made me chuckle.

So great you listed some names...didnt even attempt to give anything brief...but okkkk.... Lets build from there.

What have i done to be written down as "def scum"??

EB has a point about nik's post. It is supar and lack luster when it comes to a real reason for finding someone scum.

But one can understand where he stands in the game. Sure his reads aren't back by much foundation. But now we know that...we know certain reads aren't the most concrete. Anyways whats wrong with his reason for believing his scum picks?

A process of elimination! That's not real scum hunting and like I said the only point he actually makes was scien and I the rest is meh. He might as well have done a list like EB for all the good his post does.

Eh i disagree. But feel free to nitpick at him and ask further questions to get more concrete answers, and perhaps case-like things out of him.

I want to push Eb's laughable list. 2 'def scum' are the two who put cases on him. Omgus much?

[Benmage]

Anywhose i'm goin to the gym...EB, dont disappear!

[Benmage]

Whatever. Enough is enough, what a douchebag. I'd ask the mod to replace ODDin, but than my question would still go unanswered, and nothing the new player brought to the table would have me ignore it.

Thus Oddin(or his spot) dies tomorrow.

vote EB

[Benmage]

Ok, due to the closeness of the deadline, and the lack of posting by many players. I'm going to send everyone a prod.

I'm here!!!

I'm obviously lurking.

[Benmage]

When is the deadline?

[Benmage]

I wasn't defending you. I was defending the analysis 'guidelines' and my opinion on your analysis. Anywhose, hammer EB.

[Benmage]

We should at least wait for a claim first. We have another five days to squander waiting for EB and ODDin, no need to rush things.

I cant phathom a claim doing anything. Nor do i want what occurred D1, besides Oddin's ignoring this game.

[Benmage]

The Hayl is upset Vote count

ElectricBadger - Hewitt, Farside22, Scien, Benmage
Hewitt - ElectricBadger

Not Voting: Nikanor, Maemuki, ODDin, XofElf.

Lots of love
Haylxxx

As i go and look at 48 n 52...please tell me where i

ever

pushed mentioned or even hinted at this puppetmaster thing.

And yes i've shown how your hypocritical behavior has been scummy. In relation to your 2nd vote. It was terrible. You made up some bullshit excuse that you were a zealot against inactivity(lurkers) this was a lie, because you are one yourself. Therefore you were using this excuse to deflect your terrible vote, and hoped no one would follow up on it. You failed.

[Benmage]

48/52...what do you want me to mention? That you think i said it was okay for hew to lie?

[Benmage]

That the only player I see as likely town (based purely on statistics) isn't posting? You don't see that as a bit of a difficulty or slightly frustrating?

So instead of rising to the challenge...you fall to the shadows...thats great for everyone else whose town...yeah you're a real winner.

[Benmage]

From my iso 38:

I found Scien asking for someone to hammer at the end on RBT was incredibly scummy, especially looking in hindsight as he flipped town. I never really understood the wagon on him to begin with I thought it was pretty damn crappy and forced.

Did you ever try to stop the crappy and forced wagon? If so, please reference it...if not, please explain why.

Also, please explain why Scien's vote was scummy and yours on Fuzzy wasn't, as both suspects flipped town.

touche, but you(hewitt) are dealing with scum here...soooooo

So...what? It's okay if he lies, as long as he does it to kill off people you want dead?

No, your point was good. He should've argued against the crappy wagon if thats how he felt. My point is that, you're scum.

^^Did that not answer your question?

From my iso 53:

Also, you still haven't explained why it was okay for Hew to lie. It's a bit silly to accuse me of not posting cases while you dodge them.

Where did i miss this?

Where did hew lie?

Where did I say it was ok for hew to lie(which seems like i would've if your implying now that i need to explain it)

And I'm on the others for being inactive/asking for prods...but they aren't throwing their hands in the air and saying i'm done for today, like you did. And ya backtrack all you want.

I'm clearly not trying to ignore whatever question your asking of me, and trying to indulge you...

Via my iso 53, it looks like i'm trying to be helpful, but you ignored me questions..and now your pushing some bs that i didnt answer you...gg crap.

Anything else to your omgus read i should mention? Or remention?

[Benmage]

That the only player I see as likely town (based purely on statistics) isn't posting? You don't see that as a bit of a difficulty or slightly frustrating?

So instead of rising to the challenge...you fall to the shadows...thats great for everyone else whose town...yeah you're a real winner.

Now you're just getting personal. And again, no argument that any of my actions were

scummy

- just a policy lynch.

Its not a policy lynch..lol dont try and suggest this. You folded you hands up and said lets scum hunt tomorrow...geeeze...you lied about disliking lurkers to deflect a terrible vote....you are guilty or lurking. You've brought zilch to the table. You reads are omgus. You are scum. There is no policy a lynch. A Mae or Xof lynch for whom we have little to go on would be a policy lynch. We know where you stand, and it isn't town.

[Benmage]

^^Did that not answer your question?

Not even remotely. What has my being scum - or not - got to do with Hew citing suspicions of townies as a reason to lynch Scien despite his own votes on the same? How could that possibly be interpreted as a response?

Where do you ask me this question again? My answer was to you suggesting that i said it was okk for Hew to lie, which was not the case.

[Benmage]

Its not a policy lynch..lol dont try and suggest this. You folded you hands up and said lets scum hunt tomorrow...geeeze...you lied about disliking lurkers to deflect a terrible vote....you are guilty or lurking. You've brought zilch to the table. You reads are omgus. You are scum. There is no policy a lynch. A Mae or Xof lynch for whom we have little to go on would be a policy lynch. We know where you stand, and it isn't town.

Your play, or refusal to play is down right detrimental and worthy of a lynch on policy alone.

Unless you can explain intentional hypocrisy about lurkers as a pro-scum move, this remains your only motivation: not that I'm scum, only that I'm apparently not bringing enough to the game as town to satisfy you; perhaps not, but I don't think spamming the thread is any more helpful (in this game it's been a lot worse). And when the spam stopped, I DID resume posting when I could have ignored the thread on several occasions - probably to my own personal betterment.

Is this your point that I supposedly calling your wagon a policy lynch? The act of you folding up your hands and refusing to scum hunt until tomorrow is the statement to lynch on policy alone. I'm pretty sure i was calling you scum before this. I think this may have pushed you into the #1 spot over Oddin, but thats all. And you case is much more than just this, as aforementioned.

[Benmage]

Response to prod: Much like I said, I haven't got the time to properly catch up until Friday (maybe Thrusday evening if I'm lucky). If there are specific summarised questions to me concerning my previous play (that is, not my opinions on recent stuff, which I haven't really read yet), I can answer those.

Bullshit you manage to post plenty elsewhere.

[Benmage]

Unless EB is amongst the top 5 worst mafia players there aint a chance in hell hes town. But i'll vote ODDin.

unvote vote ODDin.

Lynch EB tomorrow.

[Benmage]

@ODDin Answer this.

Far

what do you think about Oddin disliking your roundabout town definition, when he himself gives one...He also plainly states his discord for people who make statements like"I'm town" and yet fails to comment on the several occurrences Scien does so.

Part of that goes under my theory from day one of scien/oddin scum team.
Oddin keeps backing my "town" comment as aggressive = scum but only points to one game as an occurance of this which is shady.
I do garner more inquiry being as I'm more vocal then others.

Take a gander at this:

I notice that very few scum now how to be aggressive in the beginning of the game. They either followers, or they hem and haw or backtrack or make wishy washy comments. I don't go after the agressive person. typically scum watches, waits and doesn't do much else.

Could well be read as: look how extremely and terribly aggressive I'm being right now. Ergo: I'm not scum.

..............................................
So, I'm currently getting scummy vibes from farside, thus,

unvote, vote: farside

Later:

My original vote on you was based on two things:
1) You were far too annoyed and edgy over what seemed to be a not so strong argument. (It's not the argument itself which bothers me - it's the way you handled the discussion around it.)

2) One of your posts made me feel like you're trying to implicitly show how oh-very-town you are.

And here again:

Because I explained to someone why I find their nonagression scummy that makes is sound like I'm so towny? That makes no sense.

I think I've explained this several times already. You explained why scum aren't aggressive in games - a thing I don't really agree with, as I've seen scum playing aggressively in games - in a way that made me feel like you're attempting to imply "look, I'm playing exactly in the way in which, as I say, scum don't play". It's an interpretation. What you said could've been said in many ways, and from the way you worded it, it makes me feel like you were trying to get across the point of "look how town I am".

More:

This is a misrepresentation. Farside's comment was a response to a question, not an unprovoked claim. Although extrapolation from it is interesting, it's largely WIFOM; pushing it this hard as a scum tell is bad. Condemning farside for being too aggressive countering your hard push of a weak argument is hypocrisy.

What I'm saying is that it can be a veiled assertion of towniness.

I think I’ve made my point that Oddin didn’t like this subtle definition from farside, or roundabout logic that one could deduce by fars statement in believing far isn’t scum….lets continue:

INCOMING HYPOCRITICAL KILLER:

As town, you're not supposed to make things a guessing game. You're supposed to make it easier for town to understand your arguments - so that they can analyse you more easily (and if you're town, that's a good thing for you) and so they can see whether they agree to those arguments themselves.

Even if you think your arguments aren't new, sharing them will at least make it clear what you think - what you agree with, what you don't agree with, etc. Later on in the game, it will help us analyse things since we'll know what you thought about people.

Doesn’t this appear to be a “definition” of how town act. Doesn’t it seem like Oddin wants people to read this and see ‘oh hey, that’s how Oddin is acting’

Ergo: Oddin isn’t scum/is town

Let’s continue these fun finds of Oddin.

2. Town don't generally feel the need to assert their towniness without provocation, and don't implicitly or explicitly say

"I'm town, I'm town"

when it isn't called for. This isn't a "too towny" argument - far from it. There's a huge difference between "looking very townie" and "consciously trying to look very townie".

Got it!

However, as a

pro-town role

I have a duty to stay alive too.

4) She suggests a pairing between me and you. The only thing I can comment on here is that

as a townie

, I can only assert that for my side of this 'pairing', its a mistaken view. However you could be scum and buddying to me for some reason. My opinion was that you were kind of objective, so I don't really see the buddying claim.

Oddin ignores again.

How about these 2.

He clearly read them…right?

Anybody can make a tl;dr version of Scien's posts? There's no way I'll read all that. I'm too lazy.

I'm not sure how comfortable I am with a player who doesn't read everything in the game. It's mafia. We post a lot here. This isn't even close to really big walls of texts.

Pwned. Outta respect for the game I’ll withhold my vote until I finish catching up.

[Benmage]

Urm, well, I still don't exactly understand the case against me, and you aren't really helping me here. With deadline close, it'd benefit everybody if you helped by giving me more time to discuss the case against me.

Without that, I'll try to answer to several things I remember Benmage bringing up against me, from what I did read of his posts.

1)

I have given a definition of "townie", which is similar to what I accused farside of doing.

There might be some fairness to this point, but calling it serious hypocrisy on my side is taking things out of context.
When I brought up this argument against farside, I said that it was mainly a gut feeling. It was a possible interpretation which popped into my mind as I read her post and I shard it. I then used it to push the case forward and see how people react. It was, however, a very weak argument - I've said so several times already. It's weak because it's very heavily based on interpretation. Yes, it *might* be that farside was trying to assert her towniness without any provocation. It might also be that she was townie who was saying these things in response to a specific question, which also makes sense.
I realise, and realised then, that it's not a seriously scummy thing to do.
When later I gave the "definition of townie play", I did so because it came naturally out of the discussion. Yes, the argument may be applied against me in the same fashion - and it will be just as weak as the argument I've applied to farside.
I never said I can't see a townie doing so. The fact that I did something similar myself only goes to show that I don't really find it too scummy.

So you yield this is a point against you. You claim the strength of the initial point is weak. Perhaps. However I think you condemning the act and committing the same fault makes the second time around worse. I.E. you doing it is scummier. Call everything weak....Find something stronger on someone else, and maybe it won't be your head in the noose.

2)

Scien also called himself townie, and I didn't say anything about that.

Yes, but he was attacked. The original argument discussed people asserting their towniness with no provocation. When you're attacked, it makes perfect sense to imply that you're town. You cannot defend without implying you're town - the whole point of defence is to attempt to convince people you're town.

Your statements context was read as a point against farside. Yet it was shown to you she did so through discussion and being asked a question. You dont see the provocation there?

[Benmage]

I said exactly when I will read the game. Tomorrow evening I come back home from an exam and start reading. Before that, I'm more busy reading about integrals.
Without catching up on more recent stuff, I'm suspicious of you, hewitt - I've already voiced these suspicions early D2. I also didn't much like EB, but to a lesser extent.

Your "RL" duties aren't keeping you from other spots on the site.

[Benmage]

Your statements context was read as a point against farside. Yet it was shown to you she did so through discussion and being asked a question. You dont see the provocation there?

There's a difference between saying something which is relevant to the discussion and defending against an attack. farside wasn't attacked and wasn't accuse of being scummy. What I said was that I felt she used the question to assert her towniness - which wasn't necessary, seeing that she wasn't being attacked. That is, there are many ways to word the same thing, and I didn't really like the way she worded her answer, as I felt it had a certain scummy subtext. It was mostly "FYI everybody, farside may have an ulterior motive in this post", not "I am certain she has an ulterior motive, this is very scummy".
That was my reasoning back then and that is why I didn't consider this a point against Scien.

Scien's context seems under no greater scrutiny than the one Farside was in...perhaps you should relook.

Your "RL" duties aren't keeping you from other spots on the site.

Well, if you already brought this up, yes, I am more active in another game, for two reasons:
1) It has a deadline tomorrow.
2) I don't have to catch up on about 9 pages to know what's going on there, because when this game grew like a mutated monster, that other game was getting very few new posts.

Also, if you really bother to check, you'll see that I said I'm going to be less active in that other game as well.

Yeah i saw you make a similar statement...and then continue to play actively.

How long did it take you to answer the questions I had on you?? You were gone for a few days....you said you already read them...but today as votes return to you, you come in and start posting. What a total bunch of crap you are trying to pass by us.

Again, bring up some points on someone else, and maybe you wont see the noose.

[Benmage]

Scien's context seems under no greater scrutiny than the one Farside was in...perhaps you should relook.

Erm, what? Scien was under heavy accusation from farside. That was the whole beginning of D1. farside wasn't really being accused by anyone at that point.

Farside mentions it through her back n forth with scien. Scien does so in the back n forth with farside....i see no greater provocation.

[Benmage]

hewitt: right now (that is, based on info from page 20 and earlier alone), you.
I've already said why I think you're scum earlier today. I think your reaction towards EB is blown out of proportion. I don't like the way you said how oh-so-terribly-wrong the wagon on RBT was - but you only remembered saying so today, when it's too late. I don't buy that you didn't realise she was in danger of being lynched. When you focused on the game and presented your huge case on fuzzy RBT was already in plenty danger of being lynched, and you should have noticed that on the reread.

So why didn't you vote him? Nothings changed on this matter...you going to wait and try a speedy deadline lynch?

[Benmage]

I have some gut reactions towards EB, and I remember he didn't respond to some of the things you've brought up against him. But I haven't really got a case right now.
There are also a couple of things I don't like about Benmage. The brief skimming of his walls gave me a feeling that he assumes I'm scum and then goes on to explain how what I'm doing is scummy, and also I got the impression he knows you're town (which, in this setup, actually feels more like he's your scumpartner). On the other hand, he's very active and he's pushing the game forward, while I would expect scum to lurk a bit more and attempt to just slip under the radar, so that speaks in his favour.

Your gonna need to say more than just this...yes as i caught up i gave several gut reads at the moment...when my read through started winding down I was able to get more concrete things together. Your point?

[Benmage]

Re-reading ODDin in iso.

Also intrigued by the sudden exodus of votes from me after a claim I didn't expect much from; my guess is mafia trying to find werewolves rather than focusing on an already-weak town.

I'm not sure. I dont like it. If you and Xo are town, mafia could confirm this knowing the 2 monks are town, and yes swing their votes to find a werewolf.

Who was all waiting for you to claim...Nik?...who lead the vote switching? Far/hew?...i'm literally walkin out the door and not bothering to check. Yes i switched mine too...and could flip it back n forth, i want either of you dead and will vote the leading wagon.

[Benmage]

@Kerrigan, Yo Kerrigan you here got a question for ya...

[Benmage]

So why didn't you vote him? Nothings changed on this matter...you going to wait and try a speedy deadline lynch?

I didn't vote for him earlier because it was the start of the game and I was waiting to hear more from him before deciding to vote. I didn't vote later because I don't enjoy voting without having read the entire game.

Start of game…you mean start of D2 right?

Your gonna need to say more than just this...yes as i caught up i gave several gut reads at the moment...when my read through started winding down I was able to get more concrete things together. Your point?

I wasn't trying to make a point. I've said the opinions I had on people at the moment, as hewitt requested. Technically he requested scum, but I included you because I'm not really sure, I have strong feelings both ways.

And you’re going to need to explain more about those "strong" scum feelings.

Also, is the entire reason farside, benmage and hewiit are voting me summarised in post 744? Seriously?

Double standard, hypocrisy---shift into lurker not good enough for you? Where/what case do you have on anyone...Seriously?

Also, on Maemuki asking Ben for opinions on current events:

Bull. Rushed opinions? Whats the point...so i can misinterpret/misread an argument waste my time and others reexplaining it...i'll get to it in due time, and be all caught up and proper soon enough.
[And then:] everything would also be out of context, i wouldnt even know where to look for the current debate...no its best to go from the beginning.

That's exactly what I've been saying right now.

I was still catching up and active. You fell off the map once some questions were asked of you.

Later, in Ben's posts, he seems to know for claim for certain that I am scum. Interestingly enough - BEFORE he said anything that seems to be the reason for his vote on me right now. Specifically, post 506.
Also, he (ben) talked a lot about what poor a player Zazier is. He's bashed him like there's no tomorrow in his posts - certainly more than he accused me, at least until then. However, he didn't say Zazier is scum at all, while me he's calling scum almost from the get go. Why is that?

I just said i gave out a bunch of early gut reads based on intial sentiment during my read through. You never get a feeling someone is town or scum just by reading their play?? (get better if the answer is no)...And I hate Zaziers guts...shes a disgusting waste on this site, and i think i explain more if you read all my snips at her.

Also, notice: initially benmage practically doesn't accuse hewitt at all. At some places he says "he doesn't like his playstyle", but doesn't really go as far as to say it's scummy. In a different place he says hewitt is town, without "if" or "maybe" or anything (when he speaks about Nik in a similar situation, he does insert a "maybe").
Then I call him out on it. The next post after I call him out (post 546) - most of the post is accusing hewitt.
This seriously strengthens my opinion that ben and hewitt are scumbuddies.

I commented on everything. When i saw town-like behavior i said it. When i saw scum-like behavior i said it. I said the same shit towards Scien. Pointing out scum and town behavior...You ignoring comments about your partner again??ahaha

[Benmage]

@Kerrigan, Yo Kerrigan you here got a question for ya...

Umm...so what is the question?

U Here?

[Benmage]

U Here?

For the moment, though I think I'll take a break soon because my head's about to explode. Why do you ask?

CLaim NOW...you've been claimed in the game. Do it right now.

[Benmage]

tick tock tick tock

[Benmage]

U Here?

For the moment, though I think I'll take a break soon because my head's about to explode. Why do you ask?

CLaim NOW...you've been claimed in the game. Do it right now.

Wtf?

CLAIM IDIOT before u get lynched. You've already been claimed.. IE your role is known...now restate it...it would take u 100th of second to know i'm not lying and this is true otherwise i'd be strung up instantly.

YOU HAVE 1 minute to claim before you get lynched, now claim.

[Benmage]

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 77#2002877

Benmage, you're acting like an idiot. The guy just replaced into the game. You could try to be helpful instead of being an ass.

WHY the fuck would you link the claim.. I wanted to see if he claimed the same thing without knowing what the first claim was you truly are terrible.

[Benmage]

unvote vote SaintKerrigan

ODDin you are one of the worst players i've seen in awhile.

[Benmage]

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 77#2002877

Benmage, you're acting like an idiot. The guy just replaced into the game. You could try to be helpful instead of being an ass.

WHY the fuck would you link the claim.. I wanted to see if he claimed the same thing without knowing what the first claim was you truly are terrible.

For starters, because you should stop using replacements as a tool to gain unfair advantages in the game. This is unsportsmanlike.

No, this is a strategy i've seen before. All he had to do was claim correctly. It would've taken 10 seconds to realize i wasn't lying. If i forced an uncalled for claim I would've been jumped all over faster than anything. Thus a claim for a scum would be perfect. You ruined it. Luckily she still f'd up regardless, and you outted yourself.

[Benmage]

...oh, my partner claimed. Thanks a lot, EB. Now both of us are targets for nightkills. That was smooth. For the record, if you're in a mason-like team, for god's sake

don't

claim what your role is, and definitely

don't

tell people who your partner is. It just paints a big red dot on both of our backs and screams "nightkill!"

@ Benmage: So how was I supposed to know that my partner claimed? Besides, even

if

I felt like claiming, I would've just claimed vanilla townie, because I wouldn't want to expose my partner for a potential nightkill (or two, as we happen to have in this case).

Your partner can potentially be scum..or did you ignore this cause your role says MafiaMonk?

Your role was known. No way was i lying. If you thought i was and you claimed, everyone would've murdered me. An infant could deduce this. You got flustered, and scarred cause you're scum.

[Benmage]

The Burr Vote count

ElectricBadger - Scien
Hewitt - ElectricBadger, ODDin
ODDin - Hewitt, Farside22
SaintKerrigan - Benmage

Not Voting: Nikanor, Maemuki, ODDin, SaintKerrigan.

Lots of love
Haylxxx

The fact that other people were acting in an unsportsmanlike manner before doesn't make it any better. You were using the fact that she replaced and didn't yet read the thread to gain a possible advantage. If she were a player from the start it wouldn't have worked. Thus, it's unfair. Period.

That being said, he (it's he, not she) did made a rather weird choice by not claiming. Then again, Fuzzy didn't initially respond to hewitt's claim either.

And I outted myself? In what sense?

You ruined the perfect trap to protect your partner.

This is by no means unsportsmanlike. The logical deduction that i wasn't lying could've been reached in seconds...all she had to do was use her fake claim "Monk".

[Benmage]

Kerrigan: to clarify, are you are are you not confirming the claim?
Also, claiming VT when you're not is a bad idea. Townies shouldn't lie. It'd create all sorts of confusion and weirdness later on in the game.

Yeah Oddin, you should start bussing.

[Benmage]

Benmage, you should get a sense of honour. Taking advantage of a replacement is not fair. You are not supposed to have any advantage in the situation of a replacement that you wouldn't have had without any replacements.
I don't want and don't need unfair victories. Sadly, I was too late.

I dont see this as an unfair strategy. Like I said, the deduction that i wasn't lying was fairly easy in my opinion. Thus based on my views i see this as a viable strategy and was following my play to win.

[Benmage]

Sorry for some of the insults...i do get carried away.

[Benmage]

Yes it is possible for monk to be mafia. SK should've known i wasnt lying and claimed (correctly)....it was all rather simple. She didnt, messed up, cause shes scum.

[Benmage]

In other news:

Vote: Benmage.

I think he used this little stunt as an attempt to draw out a member of the opposing scum team.

An omgus now will only bury you.

"other scum team" ...yielding you are indeed mafia...the play could only be done to that team because you replaced a monk...gg

[Benmage]

@ Benmage: I got flustered because I didn't know if my older selves had claimed or not, and I didn't feel like claiming now. You're misconstruing the whole situation, Benmage.

If they didnt claim and I demanded this, i would've been murdered by everyone else...it was all very obvious.

[Benmage]

Also, what has been seen cannot be unseen. Kerrigan, the "other scum team" does pretty much constitute a claim of being scum.
F*ck you, Benmage, and pardon my French.

Wow, admitting yourself as well..you could've held off a little longer...2 for 1, lol didnt see that comming.

[Benmage]

Also, what has been seen cannot be unseen. Kerrigan, the "other scum team" does pretty much constitute a claim of being scum.
F*ck you, Benmage, and pardon my French.

No, I'm accusing Benmage of being a member of one scum team who accuses someone of being a member of the opposing scum team. This does not mean that I am a member of a scum team.

Nice backtrack..unfortunatley what probably happened was you went "Ah hA!"
thinking you had a way out to point a finger elsewhere, but messed up in your wording cause...well you're scum(mafia).

Anyways, some words of advice what i did was freakin brilliant. And the idea i am from a different scum team is a mess of wifom...because why wouldnt town do what i did? So i doubt you'll be convincing much on this alone.

May i ask, have you read the thread yet? And if the answer is no....i suggest you do so.

Note: you may want to skim the tough early scien/farside debate/walls.

[Benmage]

I wanted to see if he claimed the same thing without knowing what the first claim was you truly are terrible.

What makes you think that a townie in that situation wouldn't claim vanilla townie?

Town should never lie. If she was a Monk he'd of claimed so.

It would've taken 10 seconds to realize i wasn't lying. If i forced an uncalled for claim I would've been jumped all over faster than anything. Thus a claim for a scum would be perfect. You ruined it. Luckily she still f'd up regardless, and you outted yourself.

What makes you think they might not sacrifice a player to out the other M/M team and possibly drag out a member of the other scum team?

Overall this was an ill thought out 'trick' I think.

Lol...why would a scum sacrifice themself for a mason. And out their partner most masons in every game i have ever seen end up claiming their partner real quick. This is a terrible counter.

Look again. Its a pretty simply trick to avoid. SK messed up.

Er... what? In that situation, why trying to figure out what is going on a bad idea? You would be stuck with no information, no way to know if it was a scum ploy or not, and immense pressure from the 'trick' to answer instantly. I think I might be hesitant as well.

Are you an idiot? A scum ploy?? Really, if only the scum were so bad....if scum did some false ploy like this they'd be hung up by the rest of the town instantly...geeeze scien...wow..

Your role was known. No way was i lying. If you thought i was and you claimed, everyone would've murdered me. An infant could deduce this. You got flustered, and scarred cause you're scum.

Ignores the possibility of a scum willingly sacrificing themselves to draw out the team. Kerrigan had no way to know at the time if the scum were in a position where they would try that. Please tell me you thought about the possibilities before you pulled this off.

ITS D2. Hopefully she read page one and the rules...holy shit a 1-1 trade is ideal! And it wouldnt even be a 1-1 trade...it would be a scum for a claim..and she wouldnt have to out her partner...

SK should've known i wasnt lying and claimed (correctly)....it was all rather simple. She didnt, messed up, cause shes scum.

Way to keep pushing this point like its a fact. There are other possibilities.

Nothing you've thought of.

f they didnt claim and I demanded this, i would've been murdered by everyone else...it was all very obvious.

And that could have been your intention. This possibility is obvious.

To be the worst scum player ever? Yeah that could've been my ploy. In which case she'd have more reason to jump at it. How are you really this blind scien? The rollercoaster of up and down posts you've made this game (soundly speaking, not scummy) Is in a screeching freefall.

Post 847 is probably one of the worst I’ve seen in this game.

That said, and while I think ben is indeed scum, the vote appears pure omgus unless SK has other reasons to support it. Personally I'm more inclined to think ben was fabricating a distraction to save scumbuddy Hew. I can't believe he actually thought that trap was a great plan.

I really dont get certain people's thought process...Noone is even following your hew/me team..but if they were you think this SK thing erases everyones mind...you think i forgot about you and ODDin...geeeeze

Meh...worst trap ever, imo. In SK's place I would have done the same thing: refused to claim - the urgency came across as an obvious ploy to make him do something without complete information. The idea that he would mistakenly claim the wrong role is absurd (when would someone claim scum?)

Yes its a bad trap...Thats the point. Only works on bad scum. If you, as town, ever misclaim than you are terrible at this game.

The trap is to make him answer without having all the answers thus the zero ability to support a possible lie.

The problem I have is the Ben is clearly baiting him to see if he is scum. I'm not going to get into the samantics of this right now but it frankly can be read either SK is scum or he is calling Ben scum trying to draw out a member of the opposing scum team.
I dont' see how Ben doing what he did is the later.

Clearly to us. What about someone who isn't caught up and doesn't know the game state?

But I can easilly see someone in SK's shoes, who is not fully caught up, and current in game state, see the claim request as coming from a scum trying to out what SK thought to be a hidden Monk team. There are game states where it would make sense for Benmage as scum to out himself as scum to out a monk team in order to possibly hit a opposing scum. We have the privilege of being informed enough to know that this is almost impossible since the team is already outed. However SK didn't/doesn't know that for sure.

What scum team wants to go 1-1? Regardless what town (if she is town) doesn't jump all over and easy scum. Your logic is dreadful.

---

BTW I think that Benmage was a bit manipulative in his pressure and might have been actively skewing possibilities as well as words. Benmage, why did you seem to ignore possibilities? Why are you so sure that your trap has worked?

I'm not skewing possibilities, i'm going with the most logical one. Like I said the trap is easy to see through an answer correctly even as scum. Only bad scum will fall for it. Like SK.

Why did you decide to breakdown what i did here, and come to rescue SK? Are you her scum buddy?

I agree with Scien and EB that SK's hesitation is a nulltell.
Benmage, you didn't even give SK time to think about your motivation, so I don't see how you're able to say that it would have been obvious to SK that he should confirm the claim.

Pretty sure the motivation and possible outcomes where are mostly favorable for SK could've been deduced in a minute tops.

[Benmage]

The "scum claim" isn't as clear a scum claim as it seemed at the moment, though it still is a little.

But you admit that you viewed it as a clear scum claim at the time, and yet didn't vote him. That is scummy.

Si.

[Benmage]

Lol...why would a scum sacrifice themself for a mason. And out their partner most masons in every game i have ever seen end up claiming their partner real quick. This is a terrible counter.

Look again. Its a pretty simply trick to avoid. SK messed up.

I could easily see a situation where it would be beneficial for the chance to out an opposing scum team's member. Like you said... if you get them to out, then the monk partner is outed too. Gives the scum more info about who to hit. They might sacrifice for that info. It's not as terrible as you claim it.

This is as terrible logic as I am claiming it to be. Her claim firstly doesn't out her partner, only herself. Link Me one game anywhere on this site where a scum sacrificed themselves to know a townie role (preferably mason).

What scum thinks...oh its 2-2...i'll sacrifice myself on the offchance i "find" one of those other two...instead of just layin low and maybe hitting them regardless. This is crap.

[Benmage]

Are you an idiot? A scum ploy?? Really, if only the scum were so bad....if scum did some false ploy like this they'd be hung up by the rest of the town instantly...geeeze scien...wow..

YARLY... in some cases it would be benefitial for the scum to do so. Not saying that is the case here, but SK couldn't know that if she was behind on the game. Of course she is going to be careful trying to decide what you are pushing...

Breakdown a possible scenario for me where scum would do this and it would be beneficial for them. I mean you "easily" see it..so please share.

[Benmage]

ITS D2. Hopefully she read page one and the rules...holy shit a 1-1 trade is ideal! And it wouldnt even be a 1-1 trade...it would be a scum for a claim..and she wouldnt have to out her partner...

You have no idea how caught up she is. You never asked, and she didn't say. She had no idea it would be a 1 for 1.

You keep pushing saying I think that is what is going on here. That is not the case. I am merely saying it is a possibility and SK, as someone catching up in the game, wouldn't be able to distinguish if it was likely or not for the scum to try and pull off a trade.

'No idea it would be a 1-1'?? What was her thought process than? Or possible beliefs?

'No idea how caught up'....geeeze, if she didnt read page one atleast..the rules and all etc than wow...If she did, she'd know a "claim" ...thats all it is..a claim for a scum would be amazing.

[Benmage]

This is crap.

Catching up when you have a role, and seeing someone tell you to claim? I think expecting them to trust the person pressuring the claim is crap no matter their alignment.

Your trap is not as clear cut as your crappy logic is claiming it to be.

What alternatives would have occurred if i was forcing her to claim and was lying and it was known to all...what would have been the net in thread steps??

[Benmage]

No idea it would be 1 for 1 was a bad sentence. Should have said wouldn't have known if 1 for 1 would be a good idea or not.

It was a townie claim for 1 scum....She wasn't dying...

[Benmage]

The hahaha homework Vote count

ElectricBadger - Scien
Hewitt - ElectricBadger, ODDin
ODDin - Hewitt, Nikanor, Scien, Farside22
SaintKerrigan - Benmage
Benmage - SaintKerrigan

Not Voting: Maemuki, ODDin, SaintKerrigan.

Lots of love
Haylxxx

Yes its a bad trap...Thats the point. Only works on bad scum. If you, as town, ever misclaim than you are terrible at this game.

Agreed that misclaiming VT instead of a real claim would be bad play. However, I'm not seeing either the hesitance to claim or a VT claim as a

scum tell

. Why would not claiming monk help scum?

I read the hesitance as scum going "oh crap" deer in headlights...not knowing what to claim...scarred to slip up in case her previous player claimed something in thread...so she hesitated and refused to claim...very scummy imo.

Town would've thought more coolly, and like i said deduced the possible outcomes and see how favorable it was for her.

[Benmage]

However, without knowing the game state, you would not know if it was a good idea to claim or not. I wouldn't have answered you, and I have a pro-town role.

I dont see the state of the game playing a part. Hopefully she atleast read the first post right? Rules ect? Right? Also sees its only D2 right?

Even not...give me a scenario where her claim is worse for her/the town.

[Benmage]

I should say I wouldn't have answered until I understood game state.

Then you would be lynched for being scum. Whether you flipped mafia or not who knows (See SpyreX's sig)

[Benmage]

...not knowing what to claim...

You've mentioned this a couple times. What to claim - as in, to claim monk or mafia?

Claim monk yes is the easy answer. (hesitation can stem from her being mafia and not knowing if there was a gamble previously in the game) Thats why its a terrible trap. Only a scum(and a bad player) would fall for it. It was a shot in the dark, and it worked.

[Benmage]

Hesitation can stem from her being mafia and not knowing if there was a gamble previously in the game

So you are saying that it is impossible for a townie to hesitate at that point?

Not impossible, just unlikely...mafia is usually not a game of absolutes..one goes with the most likely/logic. What i am doing...not what you are doing.

Please answer the questions/scenario creation you are ignoring.

[Benmage]

he's on doping.

huh?

[Benmage]

@Benmage, how likely would you think a bewildered townie in that position would hold back and hesitate while they tried to feel things out?

Who cares if I can name a scenario. Claiming that someone could think of all scenarios in that position without hesitating is bullshit.

Can you name one?? You just told me how easy it was to see.

I dont see a townie holding back. Even bewildered(obviously) i see them seeing the validity behind the question and the possible outcomes.

[Benmage]

In this scenario your missing that If i forced a claim out for no reason, and was lying, i'd be lynched. End o story, not a good gamble.

[Benmage]

Not saying it was in this case. Saying it could have been. And the person you were harassing, who didn't have all the information yet, would not have known if we fell into a case where it would make sense for scum to try and out the m/m team.

Hesitation would result no matter what alignment the person had.

I just showed you that your scenario was false...the town isnt going to dillydally and wonder what just happened. They're going to go what the fuck benmage lynch benmage etc etc...no mislynch, lol...what fairy land zero logicville do you live in??

Like you rescinded it isn't easy to think off an alternative scenario (which btw, you lied in trying to prove your point tsk tsk, but moving on)....there aren't logical alternatives. Its cut and dry and she dropped the ball.

[Benmage]

The meep Vote count

ElectricBadger - Scien
Hewitt - ElectricBadger, ODDin
ODDin - Hewitt, Nikanor, Scien, Farside22
SaintKerrigan - Benmage
Benmage - SaintKerrigan

Not Voting: Maemuki, ODDin, SaintKerrigan.

Lots of love
Haylxxx

The only excuse she has is to play the newb card and not understand what was going on...basically pleading dumb because if she thought about it and deduced it she'd come to the logical conclusion i am forcing you to realize.

And do we lynch on novicehood? Yes.

[Benmage]

Nope. Not buying it. I think anyone would hesitate.

Ok you hesitate for a second...you think about it and then what....she refused to claim, so she thought about it..WHy??

There is no scenario...feel free to try again.

[Benmage]

Nope. I think many people, while trying to figure out what is going on, especially after replacing in, would take time to figure it out.

Yes many people are bad on this site. Refusal to claim...bad...again, after thinking about it where does the deduction fall into?

[Benmage]

"People aren't just going to "test the theory" for the lulz."
Lawl. I disagree. People do funny things when pressured.

Scum do.

[Benmage]

Chuck Norris does not wear a condom. Because there is no such thing as protection from Chuck Norris.

Some people wear Superman pajamas. Superman wears Chuck Norris pajamas.

Chuck Norris can slam a revolving door.

When the boogeyman goes to sleep, he checks his closet for Chuck Norris.

Chuck Norris once kicked a horse in the chin. Its decendants are known today as Giraffes.

Chuck Norris doesn't breathe, he holds air hostage.

Chuck Norris will never have a heart attack. His heart isn't nearly foolish enough to attack him.


Let me know when logic enters the game again...SK's first paragraph wont happen...another 3 deaths without hitting either teams seems unlikely.

[Benmage]

Benmage: You still haven't answered to my question about Zazier. You've criticised her play a lot in your reading of the game, yet you didn't accuse her of being scummy on that basis. And now that you're voting SK, you seem to be voting based on your latest trick alone, not taking into consideration the previous actions of Zazier.
Why?

I did too answer this. Dont say i didnt...if i answered it in a way that you wanted more explained than say so...dont lie and make it seem like i am purposely ignoring you.

Now. Read what i said about zaz...and if its incomplete, let me know.

[Benmage]

Didn't you nearly lynch me for sidelining the game while it went in annoying directions, Ben? ...and that wasn't while people were challenging me.

Convoluted endgame scenarios aside, I'm still liking my Hew/Ben werewolf pairing and it makes the desire to kill off a monk fairly obvious.

You said you we're done scum hunting. Mine was purposely comical...because SK's deduction and reasoning is so farfetched and depends on so many things to occur.

[Benmage]

Also EB, your vote is totally omgus-ish. Pushing the vote in the face of logic....

No one has illustrated logic to counter what i've done. Scien tried, and failed miserably and has since backed off...good for him.

You make bold statements with zero backing and your vote is shit.

You really like SK's deduction and scenarios...wowzers, if you were town than you'd have the same end goal as i do...even if i mislynched you, why would you join an obvious scum? His arguments are pathetic. Play better, not emotional..."oh my god benmage keeps pressure me...ooh an opportunity to attack him....*runnnnn*..."...He's scratching at straws and looking for anything to condemn me because i caught him with his pants down.

[Benmage]

Scien tried, and failed miserably [...]

Nope. You just feel like I failed because you are clinging to your flimsy assertions. It's not worth trying to prove it to you, its obvious to others that your trap proved nothing.

My flimsy assertions that you failed to show a logical alternative...bam

Yes, others are equally as bad, and or scum not wanting to hear the truth. Bad town dont see through scum persuasion. There's 4 of em out there still...which also answers why ODDin isn't lynched and why EB will live.

But nevertheless with the deadline approaching we dont need anymore distractions..(*** <<self censorship)

Anyways who decided to hop off EB and return to ODDin?? Scien/Far? Ok...well

unvote vote ODDin

Nik/Hew follow suite please.

[Benmage]

I'm not the one suggesting something means more than it does

You're suggesting that the most probable outcome isn't the course to follow.

[Benmage]

As I have said before I could see either a scum or townie hesitate like that. You

claim

that its more likely for a scum to do so. I just don't see it.

But you haven't given successful reasoning as to why town would react the way SK did.

You keep saying how you see town hesitating like that...but as a i pry, you're argument crumbles...

[Benmage]

I think right now Ben is desperate for any lynch at all. He's been eager to kill off me, SK and ODD in just the last couple pages.

Are you saying i'm not coasting and taking a fore frontal position in this game and hunting/attacking lots of people.

Hell yeah. There's 4 scum out there. Thanks for helping my town-look.

@Ben - his argument doesn't crumble, it just meanders into confusing and ill thought scenarios and you keep refusing to acknowledge what other players has agreed on.

Scien or SK with this comment?

The basis is valid: if I were town replacing in and someone demanded a claim without allowing me to read through I wouldn't accede to it either.

I can understand this initial sentiment. And anyone would be caught off guard and maybe feel this way..but once rationale sets in...my statements are the logical ones.

[Benmage]

BTW i think ODDin is L-2....its me farside, and scien...thats all right? Have Nik or Hew voted him yet?

I Know SK and EB are blind...ODDin wont self vote, and Mae = Mia.

EB btw...you going to offer more defense to your vote? Other than just not liking my trap (for which at best you can call it null...and the whole coming from scum over town is total wifom) Also you didnt like ODDin pushes...who else is pushing anything. At least i'm doing something. Thats town itself...Can you maybe rehighlight or bullet your case/causes against me. Because I still only read it as 'omgus'.

[Benmage]

Wow.....well lets lynch a monk.

[Benmage]

Mmhmm.

Vote Benmage

I'd rather lynch scum.

Which scum, would that be? Werewolf?

[Benmage]

That a claim?

No, i'm gauging to see which affiliation you'd think i'd be with...surely you must have one judgin by past actions, but i want to hear the words(read them) before i bring the might of logic down against you.

[Benmage]

So you're admitting to be mafia? Because if you we're playing to your town win condition you'd know that lynching the last wolf gives the mafia the win. We have 6 left. 3 town 2 mafia 1 wolf. With a wolf lynched we have 5 left...the next day with a NK its 4 left 2-2 gg mafia win.

So who ever the last wolf is, isn't getting lynched (i'm not him, but even if you thought i was, lynching me is anti-town)..

Now if you thought i was mafia scum, i'd just call you bad..because yes my whole game thing was against that scum group...but you could try and stretch something there...meh, who knows.

Anyways the town is sort've in a lylo state. We can't lynch the last wolf. We must lynch mafia ideally (i think if we mislynch a town and the two scum groups hit eachother at night we enter tomorrow with 3, 2 town 1 scum..so not end of world there...if scum miss the last wolf but wolf hits scum we sit 1-1-1 ...which would reheally suck(prisoner dilemma?) and if wolf misses, well lol gg)

Anyways what with you and sk bringing nothing to the table, and being scummy also with there being a % that one of you is more likely scum than the ?'s out there i'm definitely willing to vote you with that atrocious vote you just did.

vote EB

[Benmage]

*Waits for you to go where I'm pretty sure you're planning to go*

Did you already know you voted in a way in which if you believed me to be a wolf, you'd lose the game for the town?? Or is this you admitting you are mafia?

[Benmage]

Aww EB, i saw you still browsin the web page a few minutes after my post...surely you read it...you we're awaiting what you 'thought' i'd say...did i scare you with facts?

[Benmage]

I already knew the scenario, yes. You're not a good lynch for today; but I wanted to hear your rant, pretty much a claim imo:

don't lynch you because you're obviously a werewolf.

What you're failing to take into account - purposefully or not - is that the town's only chances now lie with the hope that the scum teams will accurately target one another. This means that M/M's are horrible lynches for today. We need scum to target scum, and they need the same. Two living monks tonight means the mafia can narrow their target list nicely. Which I'm guessing is exactly what you've been trying to avoid.

So we need to kill mafia, and either farside or nikanor is one (potentially both). Even a mislynch here pretty much ensures revealing mafia. Not a huge fan of either, but my preference is-

Unvote Benmage, Vote Farside

Your logic is retarded. The best scenario for the town, involves not mislynching. Thus the town going for a monk is the most logical solution... Also if we miss leaving two monks for the last wolf to decide is bad..if we hit a town monk, the wolf only has one monk to pick from. Yet if we hit a mafia monk, we confirm a town roles 100% and narrow the options for the wolf to hit the last mafia. We want to enter tomorrow in a 2-1 state, or with 0 mafia, lol having the two factions NK eachother off.

'You knew the scenario, and wanted to hear logic...taking it as a claim'...what a farce of crap.

Two living monks tonight means the mafia can narrow their target list nicely. Which I'm guessing is exactly what you've been trying to avoid.

Wow... I'm trying to make the game child proof. And with the horrible position i'm in, i'm trying to still achieve a win, despite the odds stacked against me.

You're squirm failed. You dont have a good track record to try and be "baiting me" into a response. You die today.

[Benmage]

Aww EB, i saw you still browsin the web page a few minutes after my post...surely you read it...you we're awaiting what you 'thought' i'd say...did i scare you with facts?

Yes, Ben, in the middle of the work day it took me 23 minutes to reply to an interwebs game. You need something to occupy your time, man.

Oh boohoo. Good excuse. Way to try and belittle me. Your job must be soo important. I dont go to work till 6, thanks...and you dont see me posting there.

[Benmage]

Not fair, i wanted the top post. Lol.

Guys, I am HAVING the 975th post.

we shall see...mwahahahha

[Benmage]

The ONLY reason to kill a monk is to give the werewolf a better chance of surviving through the night. So I'm not surprised you're pushing that agenda.

What !!?? lol... you mean in that if we mislynch a town on a non monk the mafia have less chance to miskill because they'll know not to hit the monks (if they're town)

I wouldn't call this the 'only' reason. I want to hit a mafia, I just told you we lose if we hit a wolf. So yes hitting nik/far might give us a greater chance to hit the other mafia, or the last wolf...but we can't afford to hit anything other than a mafia. Hitting the last wolf and we lose. Thus again, I maintain the stance that a monk is the most logical choice of todays lynch. Your inability to see this, and terrible onstart gamble for today has cost us the game if you are indeed town.

[Benmage]

You keep assuming that one monk is mafia, which isn't certain: in fact, one monk must NOT be mafia.

I just think its likelier than aiming for the "?"'s...compounded with yours and Sk's relative scummy behavior. With your atrocious opening...its gonna be you.

[Benmage]

Oh boohoo. Good excuse. Way to try and belittle me. Your job must be soo important. I dont go to work till 6, thanks...and you dont see me posting there.

Nice chain of logic in those last couple posts. I'm scummy because it took me 23 minutest to post...it took that long because I'm at work...my work must be useless. Ergo, I'm scum because my work is useless. Quality.

Also, for your personal edification, I work in a funeral home: your 23 minutes were partially involved in assisting a woman whose mother just died this morning. So pardon me if your urgency is a little ridiculous.

Dude relax. I wasn't trying to take it personal. I didn't know you were at work, and was annoyed at you suggesting some sort of superiority because your at work and i'm not. We were talking, so I thought your stall was a legitimate purposeful stall. I'm not sitting next to you, I dont know what your doing. I may have been egging you on, but i wasn't being very serious, and believe you had work or whatever real life thing.

[Benmage]

Anyways, I'm not too concerned that niether you nor Hew are scum.

See, i'm a little worried about him myself. But didn't you just call him town last page??

[Benmage]

What !!?? lol... you mean in that if we mislynch a town on a non monk the mafia have less chance to miskill because they'll know not to hit the monks (if they're town)

I mean whatever the monk's flip, there will be 3 possible werewolves left. I'd rather give the mafia better odds, personally: killing a non-monk reduces that to 2.

Killing a non-monk also gives us much better chances of killing mafia (1-2 of farside/nik are mafia, 0-1 of the monks are).

This is actually good, and holds weight..logically valid. However I feel you've played too scummy a game to not be scum. So despite mathematical advantages I still think you're the scummiest player here, thus I want you lynched.

[Benmage]

I can explain the math later..i'm going to post office/gym/work..soo see yah in the am's.

[Benmage]

And nice. Playing the logic card heavily until it went against you, then dismissing it.

explain...or i think i can, when i drop the math..anyways hold on..i cant do it now, about to leave

[Benmage]

Just wanted to note I recieved my note and I'm here. I have to review another game first. I will be posting a lot less from here. Not my fault and I'm not happy with it.

How's it not your fault to post less here?? f the other game!

Also...EB was one of my way more top suspects of yesterday...so wheres the issue?

I dont get how i almost claimed...i never did, lol..

Math isn't my forte (Majored in History...hopefully I can do 5th grade math tho) Lets see:

There is at best a 50% of mafia in the monks. At worst 0%.

Amongst the unclaims there is at best 66% of hitting Mafia. At worst 33%.

So here's why i said mathematically what EB said was valid. This game isn't purely statistics, the 50% aint to far from the 66% compounded by the insane scumminess, I think EB is todays lynch.

[Benmage]

There is also the matter that you and Nik could be mafia making it so there is a 0% chance of town having a shot at winning and creating a mislynch. The fact you put no pressure on Nik or I with this makes me wonder more about what alignment you truely are.

@EB: Why am I scummier then Nik? How about a case between the 2 of us and why one is scummier.

Because I am going for mafia...whom i strongly feel is EB. I haven't forgotten about you nor Nik. Trust me, with Nik callin Mae, a noncontributor town...is something to note. But no goin for wolfies yet, and hopefully NKs sort some out after EB hangs.

I did comment on the fact Benmage could be mafia with Nik trying to create a mislynch of a monk using WIFOM but yeah thanks for missing that point completely.

This is bull. I said mafia would rather try and hit a wolfy and win, and that a mislynch doesn't guarantee a mafia win. If i was mafia i'd be right along eb aiming at the ?'s to maybe hit the last wolfy...so, you are just wrong here.


Hmmm farsides L-2...are both mafia on it, 1, hoping SK comes in...or is far really mafia....hmmm....

[Benmage]

Trust me, with Nik callin Mae, a noncontributor town...is something to note.

Mae is always a non-contributor. And you said yourself that Mae was acting to the town meta we had of her.

True, her meta of being a terrible noncontributor thats impossible to get a read on, and i favored policying her. Shes too hard to read alignment wise cause shes always scummy, hence the polciy...i dont know, you called her town...its just something to note.

I aint worried about youu and farside, tho i dislike the vote.. EB is mafiascum.

[Benmage]

i dont know, you called her town...its just something to note.

But why is it something to note? I don't understand how a gut town read makes me scummy.

Because i dont know how you get such a strong read off her 10 lines of play...yes she did it before as town...but have you seen her scum play to confirm that its different?

[Benmage]

have you seen her scum play to confirm that its different?

I have now.

It was the same shitty play…

This is bull. I said mafia would rather try and hit a wolfy and win, and that a mislynch doesn't guarantee a mafia win. If i was mafia i'd be right along eb aiming at the ?'s to maybe hit the last wolfy...so, you are just wrong here.

Look at it from my thought. You and nik mafia. You tried like crazy to get a Monk lynched that you know to be town. Once you lynch said Monk today mafia wins. Did I miss a beat there?

Uhhh yes...A...massive beat.. the one where a mislynch today doesn't spell a mafia win...

Benmage, have you forgotten about me or something? Because I'm pretty sure you flat-out accused me of being scum for reasons you claimed were ironclad yesterday, yet I'm seeing a vote for EB. What happened here?

Where did i make them ironclad...i have to vote...its like the presidential vote for me. Choose between the least of the worst. EB has been bad all game, and opened today just as poorly...if i miss the wrong one of you i fucked up...its a coin flip for me. I am going with EB as scum, and you as just terrible.

Benmage, have you forgotten about me or something? Because I'm pretty sure you flat-out accused me of being scum for reasons you claimed were ironclad yesterday, yet I'm seeing a vote for EB. What happened here?

maybe you will get the answer that he keeps dodging with me.

What new lie is this? Where did you ask something I dodged?

Interesing to note that ben talks about mae has a policy lynch but never carried on with that idea the next day. (starts leaning more toward wolf with Mae) Ah he bring up the idea of a policy lynch but does that backtrack of saying it was a bad idea on my say so.

I said she was a policy, but that there were more worth wild targets readily available. Your half truths are interesting to note.

I really don't like the way ben defends Nik's scum list here:

^^ This made me chuckle.

So great you listed some names...didnt even attempt to give anything brief...but okkkk.... Lets build from there.

What have i done to be written down as "def scum"??

EB has a point about nik's post. It is supar and lack luster when it comes to a real reason for finding someone scum.

But one can understand where he stands in the game. Sure his reads aren't back by much foundation. But now we know that...we know certain reads aren't the most concrete. Anyways whats wrong with his reason for believing his scum picks?

I noted since I'm not lynched and know my alignment as town that since Ben and SK did not just vote to lynch me they are not possibly scum together. As I said a mislynch today means scum win.
*wonders how long some thinkheaded people are going to be*
I'm really leaning Ben as wolf at this point, but him igoring Nik is giving me all sorts of vibes and defending his list.

I don't understand this in conjunction with you're conclusion.

[Benmage]

I said she was a policy, but that there were more worth wild targets readily available. Your half truths are interesting to note.

No this is what you said:

Nice job scien. A little ironic you left out my lingering question on Oddin in both of our summaries, but i did ask for them to be brief.

As far as my interactions with Mae...there hasnt been any, i just joined the game and she is V/LA...from her play my only read is that shes bad, and could warrant a policy lynch if others are for this so am i.

Her badness makes her impossible to read, thus quite the liability.

The YJ/Mae/Wulfy exchange..i'd have to go back and read, as well as Nik's statement.

Based on this set up and the possible scenario's I'm going with the assumption that there is 2 wovles and 2 mafia. If this a fact we mislynch with 9 players and then it's just a battle between 2 scum factions for who wins.
In a nutshell I'm against policy lynches based on this possible scenario.

This is the quote I'm referring to with my comment.
Right right right...today would be a bad position with 0 mafia dead to call for one...She still shouldnt be overlooked..that said. Vote EB !??!

Whats your point here?? And I know I mentioned other people being better targets..it must be from a different statement, and i'll dig it up from my own iso, if you tell me whats even the point of this?

[Benmage]

Uhhh yes...A...massive beat.. the one where a mislynch today doesn't spell a mafia win...

Ah the only thing that mafia have to worry about is the night. They survive the night the auto win.

Indeed.

What new lie is this? Where did you ask something I dodged?
I asked:

@ben: if you think one of the monks is mafia why are you voting EB when you were pushing so hard on SK before the lynch of Oddin.

This is what you said which does not answer my question and a question with a question in my view is dodging a question

Also...EB was one of my way more top suspects of yesterday...so wheres the issue?

Lol...this isn't dodging a question..you asked why go for EB...again, as i just answered SK (read shit...one answer to one, can apply to other questions, like yours) EB has been scummy all game. I didnt dodge the question, I am going for EB because he's been scummy for me, and I should've stuck with my gut and lynched him awhile ago...His opening today only made this oh so more obvious of a lynch. I didn't deflect the question with a question...way to make things sounds worse, geeze...i gave a most obvious answer to an idiotic question, because i've been questioning Eb for awhile now, anyone could see why I'd vote him. So I ask you where the issue is, because there is none.

[Benmage]

Also this note:

There is at best a 50% of mafia in the monks. At worst 0%.

There is either a 50% of mafia you or Nik or 100% in my view since I know my role as town.

Bullshit, you're definitely the final mafiascum.

[Benmage]

@ Benmage:

You (ODDin) ruined the perfect trap to protect your partner.

In addition to that direct quote, you spent almost the entire of the end of Day 2 (once I replaced in) arguing for your trap and how it conclusively proved me as scum. I dunno, did you talk with someone during the night and get a refreshed perspective or something?

If you read the game you'll see I spent a lot longer time calling out EB and trying to get him lynched...like i said, i'm willing to write you off as bad town...Why are you trying to get lynched? Why are you still talking to me and not going for mafia...thats who has to die today....(idiots )

I also called out ODDin, and Scien at times, and as a possible pair...look how that turned out. Noones perfect...(**waits for bad, opportunistic scum to hop on to my mistargets**)

[Benmage]

mmm I just realized something so I'm going to wait for Ben to either reply with the hopes he will be rationale when posting this time.

Go fuck yourself (inc frustrated post)

[Benmage]

Good luck with that.

Ben is scum. I just don't see him as mafia, considering his buddying with Hew and continuing attacks on monks.

How does buddying with Hew make me scum?? Geeze...did you not see Mae flip wolf...do you think theres 3 wolves??

[Benmage]

Frankly, of your three 'sure thing' wagons yesterday at least two were against townies, and your flip flopping affirms you have no idea where scum is and are just trying to force a wolf agenda. You're on your own, desperate, and you need both the monks and the mafia dead - not just mafia.

This sounds nice, but makes no sense. The last wolf, just like the town needs a mafia lynched this day for the game to continue...the rest is up to fate (nk's)

[Benmage]

The Youtube Can Die Vote count

Farside22 - ElectricBadger, Nikanor
ElectricBadger - Benmage

Not Voting: Hewitt, Farside22, SaintKerrigan

With 6 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.

Lots of love
Haylxxx

I have prodded Hewitt as requested. I've updated todays pages with vote counts at the top of each page, and shall now get onto doing yesterdays. Sorry about that.

Benmage, please calm down. Insults are unacceptable in my games, as it clearly says in my rules.

Me calm down....I get told my posts are lack rationale and you tell me to calm down....

Yes. I did tell you to calm down. Insulting another persons playstyle and posting style is fine. Making it personal, is not. I have requested that Farside think about the consequences of what she says though in the future. ~ Hayl

[Benmage]

Here I edited it.....

Why are you still talking to me and not going for mafia...

Are you admitting you're a werewolf, then?

Zzzzzz…No, geeeze. Is this your first game?

Also this note:

There is at best a 50% of mafia in the monks. At worst 0%.

There is either a 50% of mafia you or Nik or 100% in my view since I know my role as town.

Bullshit, you're definitely the final mafiascum.

How is this BS? Seriously if your town this makes sense because hello look at Scien and what he said. 1 monk could be mafia and not both. Which mean that 50/50 between you or Nik or 100% that you are both scum.
Please explain how this is BS instead of throwing out garbage.

Its BS, because you are the last mafiascum.

Lol...this isn't dodging a question..you asked why go for EB...again, as i just answered SK (read shit...one answer to one, can apply to other questions, like yours)

My comment you quoted was before you answered SK why don't you read shit yourself instead of cursing at people.

Huh? Comment of yours I quoted...I though you we're quoting my comments/asking me something...

i gave a most obvious answer to an idiotic question, because i've been questioning Eb for awhile now, anyone could see why I'd vote him. So I ask you where the issue is, because there is none.

Wow so I should just ignore everything you said about SK and the trap you laid and wondering what the heck happened there?

No, lol...i've answered this now...so again, what is your point? Only one monk can be scum, and I am naming it EB.

I said she was a policy, but that there were more worth wild targets readily available. Your half truths are interesting to note.

No this is what you said:

Nice job scien. A little ironic you left out my lingering question on Oddin in both of our summaries, but i did ask for them to be brief.

As far as my interactions with Mae...there hasnt been any, i just joined the game and she is V/LA...from her play my only read is that shes bad, and could warrant a policy lynch if others are for this so am i.

Her badness makes her impossible to read, thus quite the liability.

The YJ/Mae/Wulfy exchange..i'd have to go back and read, as well as Nik's statement.

Based on this set up and the possible scenario's I'm going with the assumption that there is 2 wovles and 2 mafia. If this a fact we mislynch with 9 players and then it's just a battle between 2 scum factions for who wins.
In a nutshell I'm against policy lynches based on this possible scenario.

This is the quote I'm referring to with my comment.
Right right right...today would be a bad position with 0 mafia dead to call for one...She still shouldnt be overlooked..that said. Vote EB !??!

Whats your point here?? And I know I mentioned other people being better targets..it must be from a different statement, and i'll dig it up from my own iso, if you tell me whats even the point of this?

Your stated I was making half truths. So you can lie and it's okay. Nice way to just ignore your own comment to me where I show you talking about lynching mae for policy lynch and backing off on my say so.

HOLY $%#@ing shit....where the $%#@ did i back off? Geeze requote, and highlight like i'm a *&%$ing child because I don't see me backing off anywhere, and you continuing to say otherwise is $%#@ing annoying as

shit

crap.

Why are you so jumpy I caught you trying to say I was lying and showing proff I was not.
You think just throwing words out and me not showing proof that what I said was not a lie makes you right?

Where the #$%@ was i jumpy, i'm getting aggravated as hell...what words did i spout, what lack of proof did i miss...i keep asking for you to show me, and i keep saying if i missed something i'll try and reiterate/show if its been previously stated, and you just keep trucking along with that saying that i'm 'dodging'....wow, i see this worked with Scien, calling him dodgy, i feel bad for him now...

interactions with you are retarded.

Purple.

[Benmage]

Now most of this day and most of the questions asked towards me have been pointless. I know its mostly from EB/Farside who are partners and thus got eachother backs, especially considering where the game stand...and SK is well...new/useless/emotional cause i attacked him yesterday.

But like I said, its Mafiascum that have to be hunted today. So start doing that.

I'm not the last wolf, I have a damn good idea who it is...but I see the whole picture, and know lots will be sorted out with tonights kills...but first things first lynch a damn mafia....jebus.

[Benmage]

Again I want this explain
If you are town shouldn't that mean that either Nik or myself to me mafia? Yes or no? How is this not 50/50 shot of hitting mafia at this point?
I have more reason to believe you to be wolf but I want an answer to ths question instead of calling it BS.

Again, i'm pretty sure I've answered this. But i'll do it again.

Yes between you and Nik, in my opinion there is a 50 percent chance to hit mafia. I think the same 50% rests in the Monks....I don't think you and Nik are both mafia.

[Benmage]

mmm I just realized something so I'm going to wait for Ben to either reply with the hopes he will be rationale when posting this time.

Go fuck yourself (inc frustrated post)

when I see a person cursing as much as you did in one post I call it being irrational ane emotional. Half of the cursing you used was unnecessary.

Maybe, so...I certainly didn't hide my frustration.

[Benmage]

EBWOP: Minus the frustrated swearing...the post content certainly did not lack rationale.

[Benmage]

I haven't read since my last post, but..
@Farside:
Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 3:59 pm

Still trudging:

@ EB, eeeh, pretty much wants to lynch the lurkers and no one else. Follows the town, and it seems like he's more likely to vote for a town-lurker than a scum-active poster. That bugs me.

^ Done from memory. Most likely not accurate. And I'm trying to understand the arguments. No luck yet.

Well, if you agree that farside/Scien arguing is useless...then why are you paying so much mind to it? It's mostly arguing about something that's very small, and

If you say that I've been posting more on my other games, it's because they don't have walls of text that confuse me. Just before you point that out.

This whole post read as a big inner sigh. Cant get a read on bad players. Shes a policy lynch... the earlier the better.

Although i think i'm seeing some real evident scum here that should probably be dealt with first.

Underlines what can be seen as ‘worthwild targets’

See..i told you it was in my iso, and that this was what I said...geeze. I'm not gonna lie, or stretch the truth. I'll let you scum twist and fubar the game yourselves.

[Benmage]

Which general question?

[Benmage]

The whole point of this, if you recall was you wondering why I didn't pursue Mae in a policy lynch, and me saying there were more worthwild targets. You said I didn't say such a thing...Which is why I quoted what I did, but if you want to bring more to the table/issue than please continue.

[Benmage]

I was tackling the second comment as that was your last thought before I brought into play the need to vote for wolf or mafia at that point and you changing your mind based on my say so. So no that is not a lie as you just tried to say it was.

..I changed my mind from what to what?

And quote please, instead of linking.

[Benmage]

Thats a post about Nik...?

[Benmage]

Spammer!

I'll fill them with something of use, later ~ Hayl