Mini 149: Open Role Mafia - Game Over

[Stewie]

I'll

vote: meme

since she can't vote me back.

[Stewie]

I have to say, if I were mafia I'd be pretty confused too, since I would wonder if the doc can protect himself (hint to dour: don't tell )

I'm assuming that anyone could be mafia. My guess is that Speedy distributed the roles first, and then distributed the motives (kinda like Cam did in Quantum -- not sure if he did it again afterwards), so anyone could be mafia, even our powerful town roles, such as cop and doc. It'd be pretty lame if we could rule them out just because they have a powerful role.

And HM, don't reveal. While you are not marked for death for sure (Read first sentence of this post) you would be marking them for death.

[Stewie]

That's not true. There is the fact that the doc may be able to protect himself, the fact that one of those 3 roles can be mafia, and the fact that the mafia might let one of you live to make it look like s/he's mafia, when s/he's really not.

[Stewie]

Don't you think that if there are roles that could not be mafia, the game would be quite boring? I'm confortable assuming that role and motive were assigned independly.

[Stewie]

unvote: meme

I'm guessing that if meme didn't have that voting restriction, she would have done something like

vote: lazarusmoth

, right?

[Stewie]

Well, you didn't convince me MeMe, but that's because I already thought that way. If you won't try to convince them otherwise later on, I will. At least for a bit.

[Stewie]

what premise are you talking about?

[Stewie]

Well, I don't think that Speedy put one scum in the non-vanilla townies and two in the vanilla townies, mainly because it would make the game unbalanced. Roles are probably randomly distributed. We could have 3 non-vanilla as mafia just like we could have 3 vanilla as mafia.

I'm just saying this because, if something happens to me at night, I won't be able to remind you that because we lynched one non-vanilla townie it doesn't mean that we should only look into the vanilla townies. Also, it makes more sense for it to be random so it can't be metagamed.

[Stewie]

I'd unvote and vote for whoever has more votes, but...

[Stewie]

How about we test his ability. I can't think of how this would work (given that if we test it on somoene that we think innocent and it doesn't work, we'd be lynching them for good, and if we test it on someone that we think is scum and it works, then we would have to wait until the next day to get rid of him/her). But maybe we could narrow it down to two people, test his role, and if it works lynch the other.

[Stewie]

unvote: lazarusmoth, vote: mlaker

MeMe, do you keep some sort of notes or something? I would have never found that out, unless rereading.

And Dour said he'd be back today to check, but it doesn't seem like he has.

[Stewie]

I've noticed it, laz and it's either that 1) Stewie agrees with my points or 2) He's scum trying to take me down with him if he goes/make himself look better if

I

go.

It's number one. There's two sides to the issue: cop claiming results = good and cop claiming results = bad. I believe in the latter, and it so happens that MeMe does too.

[Stewie]

Jaguar, I think that the reason that MeMe pointed out that her role is restricted is because her role is extremely restricted. I can vote whenever I want, except for the last vote. Given the way I usually vote, this is not a problem to me. But meme can't do anything unless we all agree on it first. However, this doesn't clear meme anyway, because a weakened scum role could be used to balance out a strong mafia (assume, for example, that laz is mafia. Or that dour is mafia. Those are really strong roles to have as mafia, so they could be balanced with a weak role, such as meme's).

[Stewie]

Sorry, my mistake. It's supposed to read "

mole

pointed out that MeMe's role is restricted."

[Stewie]

unvote

Is that enough?

[Stewie]

Well, right now I have no idea. Anyone could be scum, and it's pretty useless to bandwagon to ask for a role claim. I know that Cam will participate, so my voet on him is useless now. If someone can explain the mole bandwagon better, I might cooperate, but right now I don't get it.

[Stewie]

vote: jaguar, fos: mole

.
Those two last votes seemed really oportunistic in my opinion.

[Stewie]

Yeah, but the fact that he's the doctor should let him live until tomorrow at least (or not even, if the mafia kill him, but what I mean is that he shouldn't be lynched today). I think we should get him replaced too, because he just disappeared again.

[Stewie]

And Stewie, how is my vote opportunistic. I can understand that Mole’s vote is opportunistic, as he put the second to last vote on, but I retaliated to Mathcam’s arguments and find that he is the most suspicious of the lot at the moment.

Well, he didn't say that this necesarely makes you scum. He didn't even say that this made you suspicious. He said that he wondered if it made you a little more suspicious. He didn't even put his vote on you at that time. There's absolutely no way that this can be confused with a mafia tactic, because there's absolutely no way that what he said could have developed a bandwagon on you standing alone, specially noting that he agreed to the logic just a few days before. However, your reaction seemed oportunistic to me. "Hey, Cam made a vague sentence saying that I could be suspicious, let's turn this around on him for absolutely no reason but the fact that he agreed with me before."

Yes, mole's vote was oportunistic too, hence the FOS.

[Stewie]

Time to back up my suspicions with a vote:

Vote: vikingfan

Aren't you supposed to back a voet with suspicions?

[Stewie]

Yeah, same here.

[Stewie]

We are going after viking now for similar reasons as to why we were going after cam earlier. he just asked for thoughts on the idea, not implying that is was the right course of action. Pretty much repeated what HM said and asked if it was right or wrong. Unless I'm missing something here, if we are going to persecute someone because of the "let's lynch jaguar because she's useless" idea, it shold be HM and not viking.'

But maybe I'm being a bit biased here. I

really

don't want to be without a doc so early in the game.

[Stewie]

I will change my vote to malaprop by friday if this seems to be going nowhere. But for now, my vote stays where it is.

[Stewie]

I think I'll put my vote back on tomorrow afternoon if he hasn't already replied

ditto.

[Stewie]

unvote: jaguar, vote: malprop

as I said I would.

[Stewie]

I don't buy it. Why would you investigate me of all people? Wouldn't you want to investigate the doctor instead, in this situation? And 2 sane cops sounds a bit too strong for me (well, actually, way too strong). Even with this setup where scum have a lot of information, it would completly screw them over. Wouldn't you think so too, and investigate HM and vikingfan nights one and two (in any order, and specially given the fact that we almost lynched vikingfan yesterday, and although I didn't aprove, she wasn't precisely more innocent looking than myself).

I don't know why meme would do this -- but she can't possibly be telling the truth.

vote: meme

By the way, I already claimed to not have any extra powers (that I know of), so it's kinda poinless to push for a claim I'd understand (although not aprove) if you lynch me because I'm more useless than a townie, but I would not understand if you lying me because a claimed cop (a second one which is not confirmed) tells you to.

That's all I have to say for now. Any real accusations?

[Stewie]

I'm ONE away from a lynch.

[Stewie]

Nah -- I assumed it was 4 to lynch instead of 5... but yeah, she'll probably vote for me as soon as she gets a chance to.

[Stewie]

Not bad. We now likely have at least 2 Mafia fingered, even if one of the cops is scum. Figure it this way: if we lynch Laz today(for instance), and he's found innocent, we know automatically that HM is scummy (or else the mod is in trouble for not making him sane like he said he would). Same goes for MeMe and Stewie. Or am I missing something?

How about this:

HM is mafia with laz. MeMe is the SK.

What HM would be doing is giving you a scum so that the town trusts him. He knows that I am not scum either (well, to some extent, since he doesn't know meme is the sk). While meme is trying to lynch someone randomly and say "oops" the next day. If we lynch laz, and therefore everyone trusts HM, then everyone trusts meme by default. I get lynched then, and meme is proven wrong. We figure that she had a really strong mafia role that could get around the investigation eventhough the main post says he can't. Town lynches meme, and he's left alone, probably to win the game.

Yeah, it sounds stupid. I don't know what the hell is going on, but HM and meme are probably scum.

[Stewie]

If it were day one, then yes, go ahead and lynch me. But what if it's lynch or lose? Assuming two scum and one sk left, then there's five town. You lynch wrong today, 4 town, 2 mafia, 1 sk. They both kill town, 2 town, 2 mafia, 1 sk. Although the town can still win this one, they'll have to get really lucky, and I mean really.

I'm really interested to know why neither of you investigated the doctor. If he happens to be scum, then you guys are screwed, so it's the obious choice for me.

[Stewie]

Continued:

Ok meme, let's assume for a second that speedy picked which roles were to be town and which were to be mafia. In this case, then you'd be right, it's a weak town. However, don't you think that two sane cops that know they are sane is too strong?

HM, that's crap? Why would speedy choose the roles so that it's easy to figure out who's town and who's not? That'd make a pretty dull game.

But I guess meme will come here any second and place her vote, so good job on the speedlynch guys, you'll regret it.

[Stewie]

You are metagaming, which is bad wether I'm town or scum. Never second guess the mod, expect the unexpected, etc.

[Stewie]

I'm not using metagaming to determine your guilt. I believe both you and Laz are guilty.

I'm using metagaming to guess who is more likely the SK, as I would prefer to get rid of one killing group. It seems much more likely to me that you are the SK versus Laz.

Even if I am wrong, you are still a good lynch, as Laz would probably suffer a night kill from any other killing groups tonight if I am wrong anyways.

No, you are metagaming. You are saying that speedy set up the roles, when you should know this is most likely not true. Trying to outguess the mod is pretty pointless and it rarely gets results.

And you should know that I'm not saying this to throw you off, because I'm already lynched. I'm saying this as a suggestion. Just think about it, how much fun would the game be if the roles are given in such a way that you can predict exactly who's scum? I'm sure it was all random, and even if it's not that's what how you should assume it's been done.

[Stewie]

Oh, I missed that meme. I'll shut up now and continue when game's over.

[Stewie]

The game favoured the town a lot, in my opinion. You guys had 2 sane cops that knew they were sane -- so no room for us to say they were insane or paranoid, and a good reason why cops should never know their sanity. There were also two doctors, one of which could protect himself, which makes it pretty hard to kill it. mole, laz and myself saw this as a posiblity, so we didn't kill the doctor. But we also saw the posibility that the doctor couldn't protect himself, in which case we couldn't kill the cop. So we were pretty much scared to do what we had to do: kill the cop and the doc. If you are going to state the sanity of the cop, I think it's only fair that you state any special conditions of the doctor, too. Then there's the fact that there were two killing groups, which often helps the town.

Scum didn't have much help either. We had a player that could pardon someone -- ability that if ever used would certainly get him lynched, and a backup cop that can't go into power because both scum groups were too paranoid to actually attack the actual doctor. Plus, from the point of view of the serial killer, it's much more convinient to kill the backups, which is exactly what happened.

I also have something against the way you chose the roles. Non-random leads to metagaming, which is what happened, to some extent. I'd suggest you not only chose they randomly, but explicity say so in your openning post.

To end the bad part of the criticism, I didn't like the twilight rule. First of all, it's impractical. What if we counted the votes wrong, and the day actually ended but we keep talking? What if we think we lynched someone but we didn't, and we don't talk for three days eventhough it's still day. It's also an unnecessary rule. If there was a good reason to have it there, I'd like to know, because I can't see any good reason other than for the sake of having rules. Further, if you are going to put a rule that is contrary to the usual rules for whatever reason, you should state it in the PM. I certainly don't read the rules anymore, because they are pretty much the same for every game, and I feel it's a waste of time. I'm probably not the only one that does this, so unless you want accidental modkills, you should include all extra rules in the role PM. And related to rules, there was no reason to warm meme because she "voted." The role is used in such a way in which if she votes while forgetting her restriction, the vote is ignored. There was no reason to threaten with a modkill.

[/rant]

The game idea was good, you just need to balance, and not make rules for the sake of doing so.