Good vs Evil, Law vs Chaos Reboot - Game Over, Good wins

[Nachomamma8]

If we massclaimed ethical alignment, scum HAD to lie.

Skimmed some of the thread, don't understand this at all.
I'm guessing there are 13 lawfuls, 13 chaotics.
If scum lie, then it is apparent. If they don't, they're just in a group of 10 others.

[Nachomamma8]

Seeing that things are starting with the RVS, I'm not going through the archive pages.

Lemon is almost certainly town, based on he and Fox's interactions early game. Norman is seriously strange, but I guess I dig it kind of. Don't really see him as scum, just anti-town.

Norman has moved from strange to probably town. The private investigator act is a bit much to handle, but it seems like he's just having fun with the game at this point, and there's nothing wrong with that.

Brizinger is almost certainly town.

and I have to go for a little while now, will be back later.

Shadow's early attacks on fox seem weird and awkward.

kondi's reaction to norman is shitty. kondi's reaction to LM is egregiously worse.

Zdenek's AVox vote sucks.

Zdenek now seems scummier. Mhork seems town.

Shadowp's response to Magua is scummy as fuck.

[Nachomamma8]

Tomorrow, I will have a little more time on my hands.

[Nachomamma8]

Unvote, Vote: BBMolla

Will be caught up after night.

[Nachomamma8]

lol.... and now we're going to drive BB to claim eh?

Unless there's a counterclaim beforehand.

[Nachomamma8]

lol.... and now we're going to drive BB to claim eh?

Why do you suggest something different? Even if you're chaotic, it still is important to treat a town PR from the other side as nothing more than town, or else when chaotic PRs are driven up to lynch, they will be killed with wild abandon by the lawful crowd.

[Nachomamma8]

no

unvote

vote: Shadoweh

stay the course you fucks

what are the odds our fucking lynches are all prs

ZIPEDEE DO DA

LYNCH SHADOWEH
LYNCH PINE WITH FIRE TOMORROW.

g fucking g

This reasoning is stupid. Also, flavor arguments are bad.

[Nachomamma8]

@Nacho - I have some questions for you in one of my previous posts, answer them please?

The early exchanges between foxace and lemon were between two players who are not very confident in their scumgame. I don't think either would risk sticking their neck out to bullshit around on the first few pages of a new thread if scum.
I forgot briz, will look at later.

I guessthe alternative is to speed lynch nacho scum without a claim. But not confident we can get the numbers given the activity here.

Don't remember who I replaced and I don't really care to look through your ISO, but I feel like you didn't attack my predecessor before. Did you?

[Nachomamma8]

the only way you can get me lynched is to work with me, faraday. otherwise i'll just make a huge random catchup post because i won't want to get lynched by a guy who won't talk to me and then BAM, everyone thinks i'm town. but if you talk to me and I sort of see where you're coming from, i'm like okay, this isn't complete bullshit, i guess i'll accept the noose. don't really care about the answer because i'll look in the afternoon anyways, but it would be nice if you could do me a teeny tiny favor and not be cool and distant for bravado purposes. think of the children, after all.

I didn't use it cause I didn't want to mess anything up?
What the fuck.
It seems too honest to be scum, but also sounds like a scum roleblocker trying to sound townies (i just didn't ever want to hurt anyone).
eh

Unvote, Vote: Shadoweh

[Nachomamma8]

lol @ not remembering who you replaced.

guess you're just a damn townie who doesn't give a fuck about anything but DA SCUM HUNTING.

almost. i was shooting for the "guy who says random shit which is honest and genuine and thus townie", and now i'm going for a "oh, he's too blatant about this shit to be scum".

now i guess i'm just trolling. it's okay, though. i'm just trying to kill time and inflate postcount until I have time and brainpower to read all of this in one session.

[Nachomamma8]

yo, mastin.
are you scum or town?

[Nachomamma8]

V/LA for until the 30th

[Nachomamma8]

Hate to turn up out of the blue uninvited but I, couldn't stay away, I couldn't fight it.

Wonderful to turn up in thread and see mastin is town.

I thought briz was town mainly for his interactions with norman. For while he could have put a vote and parked it, you see him originally making a bit of a odd comment (the troll or under-appreciated genius), voting for him after the lynch me bit, and then continuously questioning and asking opinions. I liked that.

Also, I'm going to catch up intermittently. But meanwhile, I'm going to be scumhunting from current shit.

TD's little "oh, i should unvote to give the replacement a chance" to immediate "fuck that, he's still scum" reads distinctly townish. Mastin trying to clear me based on arrogant assumptions is town as hell. Cooldog is very different than how I remember him.

[Nachomamma8]

blahblahblah

Also, I'm going to catch up intermittently. But meanwhile, I'm going to be scumhunting from current shit.

TD's little "oh, i should unvote to give the replacement a chance" to immediate "fuck that, he's still scum" reads distinctly townish. Mastin trying to clear me based on arrogant assumptions is town as hell. Cooldog is very different than how I remember him.

Have you re-read the game? Also, a full list of reads would be fantastic.

you can read, or you can be ignored.

@Pine, says the guy who doesn't know what his role does.

This adds to the game how, again?

Vote: BBMolla

following mastin

[Nachomamma8]

Seriously, ISO Trekker...he is the epitome of the lurker, non-contributor. What is a bit weird is his continual focus on Shadoweh being scum. Although at one point he claimed that MoI and Shadoweh were scumbuddies in post 376. He then went through a random shift of votes and basically sheeped Norman of all people. But the rest was random no contribution in which he voted either Shadoweh, CooLDog, or Pine.

so either trekker was shadoweh's scumbuddy, or he was consciously scumhunting, even if he didn't provide the reasons for thinking as much. as for the rest of this, what denotes scum?

But then before being caught up just voted BB, without a reason why. (I would just like to really really know why people find it weird that BB hasn't been lynched today, when yesterday he was the counter wagon to verified scum...just by the by)

I said I wasn't catching up. I'm voting BBMolla while sheeping mastin.

Um for one...Foxace wasn't effing scum so why would he have to feel "not confident" in his scum game? Also, Lost Butterfly replaced in about the time Trekker, Nacho's replacement, did, so where was the attacking supposed to come from? (Though I think Faraday did say that at least one posts of Trekker's seemed kinda townie to be fair.)

fox wasn't scum, yes. but if he were, he wouldn't feel confident in it, and thus wouldn't dick around at the beginning of the day. the same goes for ML, which was where the relevancy part came in. i was wondering if faraday was attacking me or trekker. it was important in deciding whether he was town or not.

So still waiting on that huge catchup post that will make you obvtown Nacho. STILL. WAITING. This post was made on April 21st. It's now May 7th. Like seriously. Also noted that you thought BB's explanation about his role seemed too honest to come from scum but are now voting for him.

I can do it any time you like.
Any time, I can conjure bullshit to make you love me.
And yeah, the more i read, the more I don't want a bb lynch. don't really know alternatives yet.

In two posts later (2731) he says that Briz is a town read because of his interactions with Norman (wtf?) not that I'm saying that he's wrong on the town read but what does that mean?, thinks TD is town (no disagreement there), and CoolDog is different than he remembers him but doesn't make a determination. Okay so is he different town or different scum...seriously?

some people sat on the norman wagon, some people white knighted. a select few were confused and interested by norman, and came to a conclusion with a transparent thought process, blah blah. cooldog is different, still don't know whether town or scum. seriously.

The very next post of his (2845) is to SHEEP MASTIN and vote for BB.

I'm sitting on that bb wagon for mastin, because of my trust in mastin.

He totally fits the profile of a killer in a multi-faction game. He's barely contributing. He hasn't made one enemy. He's lurking the hell out of this game.

Zdenek, BBmolla, Lost Butterfly, Tammy, Empking, chesskid3

no enemies at all, right?

Okay so fine if you want to say BB has too, but I've played with BB before and he's playing like his town self, which is enough for me to give him another day, and he's put in far more effort into this game than Nacho has.

So you think my play is identical to BB's in every way, but you think he should live because he's put in more effort?
And you see no problems with this?

[Nachomamma8]

hey tammy, watch this.

Faraday is town because he's been attacking me for lurking, while scumFaraday hates putting himself in that kind of position. Lynching lurkers is pretty shitty as a good town player because it's risky, people lose faith in you if they flip town, if they flip town you'll probably be killed by actual lurking scum, and if they flip scum, you don't really get a lot of credit. ScumFaraday doesn't take this bullshit risk. He pushes psuedo-cases on people who are somewhat active; that way, he doesn't draw scrutiny to his scumpartners and people forgive him when his targets flip town. He, unlike you, realizes that he's pushing a case on me because I am a lurker and I can do better.

I don't really like BBMolla right now because he doesn't know me at all and yet is piggybacking on the Faraday-Chesskid case that I can do better, and he's piggybacking the "Nacho wagon is full of townies" bullshit. He's also been playing the "if you lynch me, kill x" maneuver multiple times. And I usually like that because it's fun and genuine and things, but everytime he's pulled it, it's been on his counterwagon. Every. Single. Time. Also, the "yo make AV say that I roleblocked him so I'm confirmed as town" was weird as shit and stupid and scummy. His reasoning for people being town and scum is either recycled or made-up and bullshit. Honestly, were you convinced when he found you to be town because of the "bullshit wagon on you and your reaction to it?". That's almost as bad as saying [insert name here] is being protown for putting forward unique ideas and trying hard to find the scum.

mastin is town because I can read the kid pretty fucking well, and when he's scum, i can lynch him immediately. hydra'd with him a shitload, read him in other games a shitload, it's all good. i could point out reasons why, but it's not that fun letting the cat in the bag. thus, when he says someone is scum, i don't mind letting my vote ride for a little while. especially when the only counterwagon to said lynch is me for lurking reasons. of course i'm going to follow my boy.

not really interested in lynching cooldog today. faraday's calling him town and i haven't read much but i'm sure i can trust his town reads. shadow seems sort of scum for trying to get shit out of BB but obviously not caring that much. TD is still town, yea.

[Nachomamma8]

Since I just got back and see 9 votes on BBMolla, is he supposed to be Lawful-scum or Chaotic-scum?

shouldn't matter to you, now should it?
if we don't work together, one specific town is screwed and the other probably doesn't have the best of chances.
if we do work together, then everytown is happy.

[Nachomamma8]

I like Nacho last few posts. Though his reasoning behind Mastin/Faraday being town is weak. I think there's a big chance of both of BB/Nacho being town.

why did you like my last couple of posts?
also, faraday and mastin are my stronger reads. my other reads are either not really touched on or you have expressed disagreement with them.

[Nachomamma8]

1. Trekker's lack of contribution and active lurking is a technique often used by scum.

Sweet. So is being active and posting and contributing. So is walling. So is blatantly lurking. Some things, however, are just playstyle.

2. Have you read your boy Mastin? Fine if you think you can get a town read on him just by reading a response or two, but have you looked at his interaction or play this particular game? If you have and you're still sheeping him, I'd like to know why.

Yes, I have. I have a townread on him. You can come to a townread of your own doing, sure.

I never stated that I thought BB's play was identical to yours in any way; that's you putting words in my mouth. I said that fine if others want to say BB has too, but I have previously talked about BB's play, and I don't find his play similar to yours.

If that's not what you're trying to say, you need to explain yourself better. Generally, posting a case and then saying "yeah, i know XXX has done this too" means that our play has been identical in some way.

BB has played with me several times, and has seen me as scum and as town.

Extracting this for a second.
I have played with Mastin many times. I have hydra'ed with mastin many times. I have been on the same town as mastin several times, I have been scum with mastin several times. I've been town when he's been scum. I'm not sure about vice-versa. The point is, I play with Mastin a lot. I know you and BB have not played together as many times as Mastin and I have. So, when I say I'm clearing him off meta, I'm leaving it at that. I'm not pointing out bullshit general things that don't really matter to anyone but me.

Interesting, Faraday's also been calling BB town so if you can trust his town reads, why are you voting BB again?

2 reasons, actually.
First of all, look at the wagons. 9-7 with 1 day left until the end of day. When I made that post, it might have been 4 days left until deadline. Either way, I wasn't going to push a wagon on my own. So, I follow my strongest townread who is mastin and not faraday.
Secondly, cooldog is not a counterwagon to faraday's favorite wagon. Of course he's going to call the counterwagon to the wagon he's trying to push town; that's mafia 101. If you want to get a lynch, you don't push big cases they can respond to unless they are really solid, and you express your vehement hate of the counter wagon. Cooldog, on the other hand, is not the counterwagon to his lynch, and thus what he's expressing is most likely to be the truth. In addition to that, Cooldog hasn't stood out all that much since I've been in thread. BBMolla has. And since I have my own read on him, I will follow that before following faraday.

[Nachomamma8]

But in this particular game, scum have every reason to behave in this manner. It fits the profile of scum in a multi-faction game who want to avoid the crosskill. You coming in and sheeping Mastin and not contributing added to the meh activity of Trekker.

I don't really think I'm playing in a way that will make people like me, nor am I playing in a way that is typical of scum wanting to avoid a crosskill. If you disagree, I'm obviously not going to change your mind.

I said I'd like to know why you're still sheeping him if you've read him.

Because he's a townread and I trusted him? Now, because I see what he sees?

You again are misreading. I never said "yeah, I know XXX has done this too." I said, "Fine, if you want to say BB has done this too, but I've played with BB and he's playing like his town self."

If you didn't think we were playing similar, why the hell would you ever bring it up in the first place?

See that you there, that is a whole different pronoun than I. The "I" pronoun refers to myself whereas the "you" pronoun refers to others. I'm referring to others who have said he's acting in this type of way. I never once stated that I thought you guys were playing identically. I was acknowledging that others believe it to be.

You're play is not identical in any way. Sure, he may not be contributing a whole lot, but as I've said more than once he's acting like his town self. He's contributed more than you have. He's not sheeping anyone. The day one lynch should show that he's not sheeping anyone. During the day two lynch when Pine was the other wagon, he kept talking about how his counter wagon was town and that it sucked. He's given some scum reads, whether or not you hate the reasons why is immaterial to the fact that he has. You haven't done anything. Ergo different.

just did the stuff you said that I wasn't doing, by the way.

So? Congratulations? It doesn't discount that's why BB has an obvtown read on me. It doesn't discount that he gave a more in depth reason earlier. Seeing as how my reactions have already been brought up in the game, it's not coming out of the blue. If you want him to go into more depth about it ask him.

I thought you were protesting my read on mastin. My bad.

Why are you cluttering up the answer with CooLDoG? You said you place faith in Faraday's town reads, but you are voting for BB. So, you're honestly just defending your sheeping without actually paying attention to who's getting lynched with some mafia 101 bullshit. So. Pro. Town. Really, I should just unvote you right now shouldn't I?

You asked why I trusted faraday's cooldog read and not his BB read. I replied because BB was the counterwagon to me, and I expected faraday to use rhetoric to increase his chances of lynching me.

So, again, why are you voting BB?

irrelevant

[Nachomamma8]

But you had not done it at the time that I made that statement.

But I am now.
Am I magical town at last?
Because if I am, your case was weak for me being scum, and it's weak for it being town. If I'm not, you haven't explained yourself well enough.

Nope. I'm starting to make my way to a less scummy read of Mastin myself. My issue was with the sheeping as I can't imagine why anyone would read his contribution to the game thus far and sheep him. It's completely independent of his alignment.

He hasn't done much, he's still town, I still trust him.

Nope, didn't care about why you trusted his town read on CooLDog. I was just wondering why if you trusted his town reads you were voting BB. It was completely independent of his read on CoolDog.

The cooldog read is an example of the townreads I trust of Faraday's. I don't trust the BBMolla read because of the counterwagon bit.

[Nachomamma8]

I haven't finished my reread, but if I had to choose a wagon now it would be Nacho mostly based on trekker's play rather than Nacho's play.

My town and scumreads are pretty even on these wagons which presents a problem

looks like you have to look at who is actually being wagoned!
and what about trekker was scummy that wasn't scummy about me in pretty much the exact same way?
i'm guessing he trolled and lurked.
i trolled and lurked.
here we are.

[Nachomamma8]

first paragraph gets the quote game

Beyond that, you are sheeping another player.

Because he's a townread and I trusted him? Now, because I see what he sees?

You can't even give reasons for why you are voting the person you are voting for other than, "yep, trust Mastin and I see what he sees now."

I don't really like BBMolla right now because he doesn't know me at all and yet is piggybacking on the Faraday-Chesskid case that I can do better, and he's piggybacking the "Nacho wagon is full of townies" bullshit. He's also been playing the "if you lynch me, kill x" maneuver multiple times. And I usually like that because it's fun and genuine and things, but everytime he's pulled it, it's been on his counterwagon. Every. Single. Time. Also, the "yo make AV say that I roleblocked him so I'm confirmed as town" was weird as shit and stupid and scummy. His reasoning for people being town and scum is either recycled or made-up and bullshit. Honestly, were you convinced when he found you to be town because of the "bullshit wagon on you and your reaction to it?". That's almost as bad as saying [insert name here] is being protown for putting forward unique ideas and trying hard to find the scum.

AND the only person you're really interacting with is me. You haven't scumhunted.

yeah, i started posting like 5 hours ago or something like that. you're pretty much the only person here.

You've given a few townreads and said you trust Faraday's town reads, but that's about it, and that's only because I said you weren't.

pretty much, yeah. those are the reads i have. others will come as they develop.

Really? Why? I have seen no evidence to suggest that I should trust any one of his scum reads, even if I do end up thinking he's town.

There's a deeper thought process that's not going on in thread.

[Nachomamma8]

Why start posting now, Nacho?

Game is more interesting when I have things to respond to and a lynch to push.

[Nachomamma8]

Oversoul specifically (not the person he replaced)

He actually hasn't done anything but has played around the subject, probably scum.

Feysal

town

Haze

sort of leaning town for the shadow/bb frustration.
not a real read.

[Nachomamma8]

Things that are a waste of time: quote wall wars. Tell me what you want me to know succinctly or don't bother arguing.

give me a dollar.

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho, why is Feysal town?

I like the ballsiness to attack the Magua and MoI hydra, I like overall posting, I don't see bad things from Feysal.

Quite frankly, that means as much to me as BB's statement about my reaction to my earlier wagon or suspicion means to you.

Which is alright at this time. I'm not using mastin's vote as the foundation for mine anymore, so I feel that it's a bit more prudent to let him defend himself now.

[Nachomamma8]

Things that are a waste of time: quote wall wars. Tell me what you want me to know succinctly or don't bother arguing.

No offense Junpei, but I'm pretty sure we weren't interacting or arguing or quote wall waring for your benefit. Pretty sure we were interacting as a means of evaluating each other.

But you were making a point weren't you? You guys were debating something of importance right? You have opinions you value right? You want town to understand and appreciate those values right?

actually, no.
we were discussing things between us in what we found to be the most effective way possible.
if the town wants to garner reads from our interaction, well, good for them. if they have a problem with quote walls, then they better initiate their own.

[Nachomamma8]

Unvote, Vote: Cooldog

[Nachomamma8]

Wait a tick...BB, who are you claiming to have blocke last night?

I blocked Feysal.

I was still hoping the scumblocker would block you and I'd get confirmed notblockingPine.

Balls.

Lol at MoI flipping scum

VOTE: Nacho

Do you have a reason today, or still no...?

What do you mean he trolled? What do you mean you trolled?

(sorry for spam posting didn't mean to post the other one individually)

Do ISOs. It should be obvious.

Feysal, I'll name my preferred lynch after more people have made posts.

This is bullshit.

Vote: Oversoul

[Nachomamma8]

For the record I would say I am about 80% certain that Mina is the last Chaotic Evil scum.

I recognize that I could be wrong and it may be safer to wait on the mass ethics claim.

Shadow, I sincerely hope you try to verify BBmolla's actions at *some* point since I consider it much more likely that BBmolla would be the lying scum as his claim is much more simplistic and *wouldn't* screw him as much as Pine's claim should one of the opposite teams win.

If Mina is scum, we will know very quickly.

@Oversoul - I never claimed anything, other than what my night 2 action was, and my result, which was more or less mod confirmed given the unusual nature. Stop rolefishing.

Generic claims are suspect.

Result?

[Nachomamma8]

PEREGRINE CLAIM YOUR RESULTS

[Nachomamma8]

nacho, how so?

Mina hates scum, and thus her scumgame is trash.

[Nachomamma8]

alright, cool

Unvote, Vote: BBMolla

[Nachomamma8]

alright, cool

Unvote, Vote: BBMolla

[Nachomamma8]

why the hell did you take so long to counterclaim?

[Nachomamma8]

How does a roleblocker know they are blocked.

nothing feysal said suggested that they would know

[Nachomamma8]

How does a roleblocker know they are blocked.

nothing feysal said suggested that they would know

Eh I got the initial impression that Feysal knew he was blocked too when he stated he was only successful the second night and the first night he was unsuccessful but no one claimed

Feysal didn't claim roleblocker though.

[Nachomamma8]

Nachomamma8, where did you ever get the idea that I either hate scum or am trash at it? I'm pretty sure I've never played with you other than in Abarat (where we were both town). Maybe I shouldn't be ruining my meta for the next time I'm in a Choose Your Alignment game, but I think I'm at least okay as scum. And I don't particularly hate it; in general I find town less stressful, but sometimes it's nice to have a direction or strategy to head toward instead of being completely paralyzed because I have no opinions on anything and know whatever I say will be wrong.

I remember Faraday maybe commenting that you didn't really like scum all that much. I'll review your meta later, but I still feel that you aren't that difficult to read as scum.

Is there more to your Oversoul vote than that quote? Because that's an extremely shallow reason to suspect someone--who lies about something as easy to fake as a top suspect. How is that even scummy?

The vote was me expressing dislike with Oversoul's tactics. His "oh scum will parrot me" bit was stupid at best, and I wanted him to out his convictions if he had them.

[Nachomamma8]

I think the six scum to eight scum debate is ridiculously stupid and a waste of time, considering we'll probably figure it out ourselves in a couple lynches.

[Nachomamma8]

lawful.

[Nachomamma8]

You obviously are either scum with no result who's afraid of being wrong on me or you have a result on someone else; stop bothering me.

Why do you think this, exactly?

[Nachomamma8]

I'm going to find all of the lawful claims before posting something more. All I remember is TD, Tammy, and Mina, and I don't really want to vote one of them quite yet.

[Nachomamma8]

Hi ya'll lets get this fustercluck back on track shall we? As a rule when I replace in I only read the last ten pages. This is what I have just done. If there is pertinent information beyond that, tell me and quote the area, I'll go back and re read it. Here's what I got from the last ten pages.

Mos Scum=Pine Scum
Mos Scum= Junpei town
Junpei Town= Mos Scum
Cool dog Scum= Tammy scum
HLScum=Tammy town
Tammy Town=HL Scum
Mos Scum= Zdenek Town
Zdenek scum= Mos scum
Empking= Town
Lost Butterfly= town
BB= possible scum (major lurking=BB scum)
Pine Scum= PV town
PIneSCUm =GV town
MOS SCum= BB Town

VOTE: MOS This lynch gives us a lot of information as well as likely being scum, lets get this rolling folks.

Okay, this is really, really strange. No actual reads, no anything, just connections. Connections that he would never follow up on. Also, the vote on MoS seems really out of place to me. Even more out of place is MoS's response. Instead of attacking, instead of really doing anything, points out this:

Mos Scum= Zdenek Town
Zdenek scum= Mos scum

says he'll reevaluate the read on the slot, and then no reevaluation. Yeah, they take potshots at each other, and MoS said he would be willing to vote TD if the BBMolla wagon doesn't happen, but he never actually goes through with it. He also continues to vote and unvote MoS for the rest of the game, but it never sticks for long, and MoS continuously ignores it. Cooldog and MoS were buddying pretty hard while they were still alive, so this unnatural sort of bussing seems to be TD's way of keeping himself distant from both of them.

There's also this:

Ok, so, pine is chaotic evil role blocker Its good to know that. However killing him now is wrong, we need to go after the rest of the lawful evil team, I can see it being oversoul/mina, but that seems a little off, My vote for today deserves some thought.

We still need to be working on finding the lawful evil team, killing pine and taking all our lawful good townies out of the game seems like not the play. Once we hit a lawful evil guy then we can kill him. Then go after our final Lawful Evil Scum.

Pay attention, if we kill pine now all the lawful town will leave, no reason to do that yet. DERP.

BB, if you refuse to RB pine then he needs to die, and all the lawful good town will leave, is that what you want?

K Lawful Wtev.

I understand some chaotic good that don't mind getting chaotic scum killed first so lawful town could leave first, but this is a tiny bit ridiculous to be coming from lawful town. If he really was so convinced he was on the verge of winning, it seems strange that he would be so opposed to killing Pine. But, if he was the last chaotic evil and knew Pine wasn't, then it makes sense he would want to go after lawful evil for a while and save the Pine mislynch for later.

[Nachomamma8]

...and yeah. Tammy doesn't really have any connections with Chaotic Evil, and I've had a townread on her since the wallbattle and see no reason to revoke that now. Faraday I had a townread on then, even moreso with MoS's flip. I don't think all three of the CE scumteam would put all of their eggs in one basket like that. Plus, Mina is still reading pretty town from her play. Mastin turning on me recently makes me tear, but I seriously doubt he's scum.

..which leaves Feysal, who I seriously doubt is chaotic scum, thanks to the BBMolla counterclaim.

so,

Unvote, Vote: TD

[Nachomamma8]

Last CE is among the non-Feysal, yes.
Go to night, CE shoots Feysal.
You shoot Tammy.
I'm endgamed by Mastin.

I would much rather wait for Feysal's result and lynch chesskid. Then, tomorrow it will be 2-1 LyLo, regardless of what anyone times to do.

[Nachomamma8]

Hmm...

Let's say we lynch Nacho - who I actually think is the best target due to him coming in and making that case against TD when he was likely to be lynched yesterday.

If we're right, we leave the game, you guys lynch Chess tomorrow.

If we're wrong, it's probably Mastin. Chesskid shoots him, hopefully, and we leave the game if it's Mastin and you guys lynch Chesskid tomorrow.

Let's say he sabotages and kills me. Last lawful could kill Feysal. Damn they would win.

exactly.
and it's better that it's us and only us voting on it tomorrow anyways.
look at TD's lynch yesterday; there was two Lawfuls voting, and six chaotics.

[Nachomamma8]

if chesskid flips something other than commoner, it's also possible that we can use Feysal's results to clear/condemn people during lylo.

[Nachomamma8]

but Feysal might have an investigation on me/mastin that could help tomorrow.

[Nachomamma8]

but Feysal might have an investigation on me/mastin that could help tomorrow.

[Nachomamma8]

So he outs it right now.

How does his result depend on if i'm a commoner or not?

if you aren't a commoner, then commoner results are clears

[Nachomamma8]

ok
and what reason do I have to lie about being a commoner as caught scum?

just as much reason as you have to offer us the chance to win.

[Nachomamma8]

You know, in hindsight, we really ought to have mass ethics claimed Day One. Scum would have been forced to commit to an alignment, I'd have immediately been a full cop, Cleric(s) would have had full protects, the night kills would have been balanced between the two Towns instead of lopsided as they are now, possibility of scum crosskills would have been excellent...meh.

PE: Nacho continuing to fear the Chesskid Plan after I explained it simply in 4054 makes him pretty obvscum in my eyes.

i will be glad to go along with it if you people be quiet and let the other lawfuls speak.
more than happy, in fact.

[Nachomamma8]

Having lil' bit o' trouble with my internet, and am quite busy for the next 72 hours, anyway, but I did notice that for some reason, there's a Shadow wagon, to which I can only say WTF. I'd rather no-lynch than see Shadow lynched. I'm a good 94% convinced Shadow's a mislynch.

Same only moreso with regards to BBMolla.

[Nachomamma8]

Yes. Nacho's being pushed by (and as a counterwagon to) BBMolla, Chaotic Evil.

Conclusion: barring powerbus shenanigans, Nacho is not Chaotic Evil.

Vote: Nacho

. Current best guess for Chaotic Evil, though I'll get back to you on that.

[Nachomamma8]

okay, let's try this again, then.

I did it, I did it! I got one scumteam!

Pine, Cooldog, and LynchMePls/ooba are Lawful Evil

.

Haven't yet worked out the Chaotic scumteam, but I'm 90% certain on the scumteam, based off of (lack of, in some cases) interactions.

That took surprisingly little time to finish.

The Chaotic Evil Scumteam is Tammy, Lost Butterfly, and Mastermind of Sin

.

I didn't even need to Iso Tammy or MoS. Butterfly gave me enough from that ISO alone.

Okay. Modded game's over. That'll open up some extra time. Now I haven't actually been using my QT (call it falling back into bad habits ), partially because I haven't really been following along since, what? Page 56? Something like that, way back there. And partially because of apathy. (Creating a self-sustaining loop: because of the apathy, no posts in QT. No posts in QT makes me more apathetic, as I'm less driven to continue.)

Here's the thing, though.

Both lead wagons stink. AV's among my strongest townreads. As is to a lesser extent, BBMolla. I might not remember much about the game, but I remember that much.

CooLDoG (3) - Nachomamma8 (trekker), Moneybags, Shadow1psc
AurorusVox (6) - greenknight, Lost Butterfly, Jackal711, Feysal, BBmolla, Shadoweh
Pine (3) - Haze, mastin2, Lord Mhork
BBmolla (6) - Mastermind of Sin, Empking, AurorusVox, Pine, CooLDoG, brizingre1

The strongest bandwagons. BBMolla looks painfully scumdriven, as it has MoS (scumread), Empking (nullread), Pine (scumread), AND Cooldog (scumread) on it, along with brizingre1 (bottom of my townread list, if memory serves). The AV wagon's slightly better, but still not great: greenknight (nullread), Butterfly (scumread), Jackal (scumread), and Feysal (don't even remember him being in the game). But it's still horribad. Compare that to the Pine wagon (made up of townreads) and the Cooldog wagon (which the weakest read in there is Nacho, at null). No contest here. Pine's the clear choice.

this is mostly for chesskid at this point

[Nachomamma8]

mastin usually overthinks how to treat his buddies.
in this game, MoS and CoolDoG buddied hard, and so I'm assuming that he bussed both decently hard in order not to go down with the ship.
(...which makes much more sense than him being scum with bbmolla and shadoweh >.>)

Food for thought.

...yeah. He fooled me, and I concede this round to him.

[Nachomamma8]

Let's say we lynch Nacho - who I actually think is the best target due to him coming in and making that case against TD when he was likely to be lynched yesterday.

I don't really think this is fair. When I am about to be lynched, I fight. Especially when there really isn't a case, just like now.

[Nachomamma8]

I've already said I support lynching Nacho/Mastin.

@NumberCrunchers, do we have the manpower to mislynch today, have Chess shoot CG, CE shoot LG, and then lynch CE tomorrow BEFORE we lynch Chesskid?
What I mean is, would this work:

- Lynch Nacho
- Chess shoots Pine
- Mastin shoots Feysal
- Lynch Mastin
- Chess shoots AurorusVox
- Lynch Chess

Because we could lynch between just TWO LawfulClaimants tomorrow if this is the case, rather than Chess potentially shooting one of the final LGs?

Mastin would leave the game after successfully killing Feysal.

[Nachomamma8]

Let's say we lynch Nacho - who I actually think is the best target due to him coming in and making that case against TD when he was likely to be lynched yesterday.

I don't really think this is fair. When I am about to be lynched, I fight. Especially when there really isn't a case, just like now.

I don't expect you not to fight, but when you don't do much except for put together a case when you're up for a lynching it's suspicious.

Read what happened yesterday again. I made a case on TD, and he was powerlynched. I had no chance to do anything else.

[Nachomamma8]

His posting's been weak, and only when it was clear that he had a very real chance of being lynched did he pick the slack up and start posting actively. From memory, I can say that his play reminds me a LOT of when he replaced into the first game I saw him in, Newbie 1024, and has similarities to how he played as scum in Outdoorsmen Mafia 2 when hydra'ing with me, and that his play comes across as not being the same as his townself, and while there are similarities, overall seems like it's more a mimicry of his town-self than anything else.

I'm pretty fucking sure outdoorsman mafia 2 was years ago.
But, if you'd like to go down that path, we were regarded as town the entire game. In the end, EMPKING got a guilty on us, and we planned to spam the town out, but I didn't make it to the thread this time and you made your last stand alone. How the hell is this similar at all?

[Nachomamma8]

Unvote
Vote: Nacho

Don't remember if I did that or not.

We're lynching Mastin or Nacho today, to give the Lawful Goods a better chance of winning. CG have already won. Lynching chesskid today would just be selfish.

1. What do we have against the CE guy?
2. How does lynching out of the four CE suspects today better than lynching out of three tomorrow?

chesskid can take a shot at a CE suspect tomorrow if he wants.

[Nachomamma8]

Unvote
Vote: Nacho

Don't remember if I did that or not.

We're lynching Mastin or Nacho today, to give the Lawful Goods a better chance of winning. CG have already won. Lynching chesskid today would just be selfish.

1. What do we have against the CE guy?
2. How does lynching out of the four CE suspects today better than lynching out of three tomorrow?

You do nothing all game and now you're going to weigh in? Seriously? But, sure, I guess you have nothing against the last CE guy, just like we had nothing against BB or Shadoweh yet we helped to lynch them. Feysal knew BB was lawful evil, not CE, and we went after him anyway.

And this is a great example for why it's a good thing we didn't massclaim on day one. A couple people can't be bothered to just not do a damn thing so the other town has a better chance to win.

Like seriously, it's costing you absolutely nothing.

Ignore them. Focus on me.

[Nachomamma8]

We still need to be working on finding the lawful evil team, killing pine and taking all our lawful good townies out of the game seems like not the play. Once we hit a lawful evil guy then we can kill him. Then go after our final Lawful Evil Scum.

Just posting this since you wonder if the LG have any pride. This is before Feysal outed BB. CE was down to one member. Feysal could have held his breath about BB being a member of LE, and we could have hunted for the last CE. TD was certain it was Pine, but didn't want to lynch him because he didn't think it would be fair to CG town if we took out our team first and left.

TAMMY
so far, majority CG have said that we can make our lynch first.
So focus on making our lynch first.
Ignore them for now.

[Nachomamma8]

Okay fine, if you guys don't want to follow that plan, we can't make you since we're in the minority, but if you want to get all ethical about it the least you could do is help in the determination of who the last one is.

no this is not the posting you should be making. focus on me and mastin.

[Nachomamma8]

Hey, Lawful Good, are you guys done discussing theory? Sweet.
CG have no moral obligation to help us whatsoever. They have no moral obligation to help CE. It doesn't matter which way they choose. If we NEED chesskid in order to win, then we don't deserve it. If they want to let him help us, cool, whatever. The point is that we don't even deserve the second chance in the first place, so complaining and guilttripping and blah blah blah won't help us. Tammy, Empking is one person. So far, I count Moneybags, Pine, Junpei, AVox, all willing to help us to some extent. The rest are lurking because they're losing interest, but I guarantee they will be MORE willing to help us if we can actually start moving towards a decision rather than bicker.

I find mastin to be scum. What he's digging up right now is poor reasoning, and so far, I'm 99% sure that he's scum. The case against me so far has been a bunch of Burden of Proficiency (I was slow to get started, but I definitely would charge you that it didn't last forever), the push on TD (I addressed this, you never responded), and then whatever mastin cooks up. Is there any other reason you find me to be scum? When me and mastin get started, it will be a wallbattle. Him and I generally wall more than your average player when backed against a wall, and I'm sure he will have a lot of mud to throw at me. So I suggest you guide the chaos a bit and bring up criticisms on both of our play.

[Nachomamma8]

First of all, to explain my meta read on mastin. There are two major points on my meta read on mastin: One, which I will keep secret for now, and Two, which was based on how he treated the scum role. For the most part, mastin finds himself a weaker scum player and puts more effort into his scum play than his town play in order to increase his chances of winning. This is why I overlooked him for so long. For reference, you can check out DC Universe, which was recently completed, where mastin replaced into a scumrole, hauled ass, and I hammered him as town without much hesitation. His play here is ridiculously different than his play there, as you can see by comparing ISOs. The reason why I'm turning on him now as opposed to you is because of how unnatural his behavior towards MoS and CooLDoG was, and because of how much you've been insisting on the chesskid plan. The only way I could forsee you as scum losing at this moment is because of the chesskid plan, so I couldn't really see you screwing yourself over that hard. Mastin's observation that I turned on him when I had no other place to turn is spot-on; TD was pretty much the only person I could see as scum yesterday, and when he flipped town, the only person I had to turn to was the person I had cleared on a meta read and then largely ignored.

[Nachomamma8]

Next, connections.
To see how mastin plays scum, check out this game[/url[. It's a bit old, I know, and obviously mastin has improved his scumgame from this point, but notice how hard he busses both T-Bone and I. He ends up surviving for a few days, and is lynched because people think he's scum from the other faction. Then, check out this game, where he refused to lynch me even though it directly lead to a no-lynch. He took a bit of a middleground here, but it's still important to note that Mastin had both of the CE scumteam as scumreads for the majority of the game, but didn't really push lynches on either of them (voted for CooLDoG once). If you'd like, I can quote how many times he's brought up how scummy each were individually; he just never followed through on them.

[Nachomamma8]

Second link.

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho, you know you just made a meta case for MastinTown, right? Mastinscum would be flailing his ass off trying to find any escape.

MastinTown would still be doing something.
I know I won't convince you of anything since you aren't in the same position that I am, but this Mastin is different. Hence why I didn't catch onto it until it was shoved in my face.

[Nachomamma8]

He's been called out a LOT recently, chiefly by me, for his practice of bussing. I think he's stopped powerbussing as his default.

And now he's relying more on distancing.
Tell me, knowing mastin, that you don't find it odd that he had TWO scumreads the entire game that he never pushed, and those two scumreads ended up as 2/3 of the CE scumteam.

[Nachomamma8]

PEREGRINE CLAIM YOUR RESULTS

I forgot that this struck me as odd. Why did you assume that Peregrine had results to claim? He claimed that he had a one shot power from a gift.

I remembered that he had a result on CooLDoG. I didn't remember that he claimed a one-shot power.

[Nachomamma8]

Let's say we lynch Nacho - who I actually think is the best target due to him coming in and making that case against TD when he was likely to be lynched yesterday.

I don't really think this is fair. When I am about to be lynched, I fight. Especially when there really isn't a case, just like now.

I don't expect you not to fight, but when you don't do much except for put together a case when you're up for a lynching it's suspicious.

Read what happened yesterday again. I made a case on TD, and he was powerlynched. I had no chance to do anything else.

I know he was powerlynched for whatever reasons, but what I'm saying is that at two crucial points in the game when your life was on the line, you popped in and did something. The first was when I wrote my case on you and we had our wall battle, and the second was yesterday. You haven't done anything else all game, practically - I don't have the thread memorized and I need to ISO you.

It's suspicious.

three times.
I'm doing shit now, and my life is on the line.

mastin, on the other hand, has only started doing things now that his life is on the line.

we're all batting 100% on the self-preservation count, last time I checked.

[Nachomamma8]

also, there really wasn't a whole lot to do until lately.
days 2-4 were powerwagon galore. I'm not going to put a lot into a game that's figuring itself out.

[Nachomamma8]

And once again, it continues today, where the ONLY reason he's pushing me as scum is because there's nobody else he can realistically hope to get mislynched.

I still had it in mind that you could be scum, but it was Nacho who convinced me you were town, simply because he was insisting on you being town. I've had a scumread on Nacho's slot for pretty much the entire game. I had a scumread on you for pretty much the entire game as well, yes, but only one of the two can be correct--and what I saw going into the night made me think it was him.

If the second quote is true, why are you the only person I could realistically hope to get mislynched?

[Nachomamma8]

Are you fucking kidding me? I'm trying to find the truth and somehow that makes me scum? Like whut? I get paranoia, but seriously?

You want a Mastin v Nacho show? I want the truth. If you think I'm just getting in the way, I direct you to NY146, where my "clerical stuff" in LyLo helped me realize that Magna was the last killer. If they ever do get around to it, they're going to be throwing up their interpretations of why the other is scum, but the evidence is what will hopefully help us find the truth. How am I even coming close to getting in the way?

If I was scum in this situation, I'd be sitting back and waiting for the show because the truth wouldn't matter to me. You know what CE killed Regfan. If I were CE, tell me why Regfan got killed the night he did. There is no way in hell, I as scum, would let Regfan get killed by my team when he had a strong town read on me. Have you ever seen how much Regfan defends his strong town reads? He once told me that I was sure as hell going to listen to him and not lynch one of his strong town reads. (He in return got an extremely long rant about the proper way to speak to me in a game, but I digress). The point is, I wouldn't kill him. If I were scum also, Mina would still be alive. Again, town read. I don't kill people who have town reads on me when I'm scum. I just don't.

This is stupid. I'm not scum, but I'm trying to figure out who the hell is.

You get distracted waaay too easily. I'm not calling you scum, mastin's not calling you scum, and Feysal's a non-presence right now, so you really don't have anything to defend against.

[Nachomamma8]

This is a misrep of the point I was making. Tammy had been a scumread for much of the game, yes, but Nacho's townread on her was the final straw which pushed her once and for all into the conftown pile: she was already a townread and already considered likely town before then, as I explained in the post and gave the reasoning for.

It's a question, not a misrep. Answer it.

Nacho never answered.

He never said "Yes". He never responded to my question, asking if he were town. He probably didn't want to lie to me, and figured I'd let it slip.

I didn't show it in-thread, but I have a QT post somewhere where I say, "Nacho still hasn't answered" or something to that effect, and made sure to note him from that point on.

Mastin, I love you to death, but you know that I would easily lie to you if I were scum for the sake of the game. The fact that this is one of the cornerstones of your case is a bit ridiculous.

And then he "randomly" voted Foxace (who he later made clear was a real scumread, not just a RVote), and "randomly" voted MoS (when he was--like me--suspicious of MoS's entrance to the game), and "randomly" voted Tammy, and considering MY early-Tammy-fear, he probably saw much the same as I did.

In other words, ML took my technique and one-upped it, using it better than I did in the newbie game. He learned to give his reads early-on while still appearing to be playing along, while he was truthfully and stealthily scumhunting. And he formed many of the same reads that I held, too, furthering the evidence supporting that he was thinking like I would. Basically, while he didn't get things *quite* right, he probably was thinking, "Okay, think, 'What would Mastin do?'"

There are a couple problems with this.
First of all, ML doesn't think the same way you do at all.
Second of all, even if he scumhunted the same way you did, it'd be pretty fucking unlikely that he would end up on MoS and CD.
Third of all, this line of reasoning is a serious, serious stretch.

[Nachomamma8]

but Nacho's townread on her was the final straw which pushed her once and for all into the conftown pile: she was already a townread and already considered likely town before then, as I explained in the post and gave the reasoning for.

Also, this still doesn't make sense. You didn't push for tammy at all either. Instead, when I attacked you, you went into super defensive mode. Why does me attacking you first make Tammy conftown?

3: Business. I don't think my mind was entirely in the game at the time. I knew I wanted BBMolla dead, but I think my attention at the time was elsewhere. And because my attention was elsewhere, I didn't really keep track of my reads.
That is, until the Cooldog lynch, and MoS NK.

I can't believe you would forget about me being scum in a game.

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: Mastin

Good shit.