Mini 1414: Mafia and Werewolves - Game Over

[Hume]

@

the director

;

Sounds good to me. VOTE: Golden Mean

- Why does it sound good to you?


@

Xegarus

;

VOTE: Director Doesn't sound good to me.

- Why not?


@

JasonWazza

;

VOTE: Revenus

Clearly scum.

-Why?


@

Everyone

;

First post: joke about RVS voting to avoid RVS voting
Second post: This vote is not random
Third post: Says the vote is random even though it's not random, sets up future target (probably gonna tunnel him by the end of D1) and also attack on intelligence for good measure

This post does not read town to me for the following reasons.
- Firstly, there is nothing inherently scummy about avoiding the random voting stage. There is a large segment of town players who do not see any value in the random voting stage.
- Secondly, I think Revenus's second post clearly was a random post or quasi-random post. I can understand one misreading of it, as the director may have done. However, especially after Revenus pointed out it wasn't a serious post, I think most people reading that should see it was not intended seriously. This has two consequences - firstly that actually Revenus did enter the RVS, nullifying evilpacman18's first point and third point, and secondly that the vote was not fully rational and was at least partially informed by chance, nullifying evilpacman18's second point.
- Thirdly, as town, if you think someone is setting up a future target at the start of D1, you don't shout all about it. When you think "Player X is going to target Player Y", that's a hypothesis. You find out if this hypothesis has any truth or not by testing it. You do that by waiting, and seeing if Player X

is

actually targeting Player Y. What evilpacman18 has done is prevent his hypothesis from being tested at all, and put forth an assertion with no backing, in a single line.
- Fourth, although I wish it were otherwise, it's not the case that town = polite and scum = rude. There's no particular reason why Revenus insulting people necessarily makes him scum, it could just make him a rather unhelpful town player. There are rather a lot of unhelpful town players.

The only random vote in RVS is the first one. Everyone else then reacts to that vote and makes a decision with some (albeit very small) amount of knowledge. You reacted to that first vote by deciding to not vote, then voted on someone who didn't jump on a quick wagon, then went on the attack.

There are elements of this I agree with and elements I disagree with. I mean, the first vote, if you look at it, wasn't actually random. Someone voted for GoldenMean because they dislike maths. They didn't throw a dice or consult an RNG, they formed a reason and moved from that reason to a vote. We call it random because the reason was irrelevant to the actual game - the reason for our vote will produce no better an outcome than random. As such, there are definitely more random votes than solely the first one. If I am the first poster and just say "I'm voting Player X because I dislike consonants", then the next poster doesn't really have that much of a relevant reason either in the sense that reason is strongly likely to produce any particular outcome. The more information we get, the less random our votes will become, but it isn't an instant process.

Also from a read of other games of yours, you're not nearly so hostile or pretentious of town. You sound like being in the informed minority is giving you a superiority complex.

I dislike this post because it isn't even true. Take a look at Newbie 1156 in ISO. This is exactly how Revenus plays as town. I don't like it. I think it's poor play for town. But that doesn't change the fact that's how Revenus plays as town.

And to piggyoff that; the director's reaction to evilpacman's claim is townish because A. it implies he went through and glanced at the games and B. came to a good conclusion.

Not really. The name of this thread implies there are two mafia teams. piggyoff could be scum, and B. would still be a useful conclusion because from his perspective lynching enemy scum actually makes the odds much better for him than lynching enemy town.

Hush, you're dead.

I'd prefer he kept talking because if he flips town, we'll know what he said was what he thought was true.


On more general thoughts, I'd like it if people started putting slightly more elaborated reasons in their posts. I'm seeing a lot of "you've done X, therefore you are scum", without explaining why doing X necessitates that someone is scum. As for me, I'm going to put my vote on VOTE: evilpacman18 because I'd like to hear why he decided that using incomplete meta was valuable and why asserting someone is creating future targets on the basis of a single post is of any use.

[Xegarus]

Why not?

Cause :
It was a RVS vote.
A RVS wagon was forming.
He put no reason but 'it sounds good' forward.

[Hume]

EBWOP: Where I said "piggyoff", I obviously meant "the director".

[Revenus]

^ brilliant town post by hume

[rapidcanyon]

VOTE COUNT 1.2

Golden Mean

- 3/7 (Josh Lyman, WT Snacks, the director)

the director

- 1/7 (Xegarus)

Xegarus

- 1/7 (Revenus)

Revenus

- 2/7 (JasonWazza, evilpacman18)

WT Snacks

- 1/7 (Navarre)

Navarre

- 1/7 (Hiraki)

evilpacman18

- 1/7 (Hume)

Not Voting (3)

: JacobSavage, YOLO, Golden Mean

Deadline

: February 6th, 10PM, PST.

Day 1 ends in (expired on 2013-02-06 22:00:00)

[Hume]

Uh, rapid? Fairly sure I am voting.

~ My mistake. Fixed.

[JacobSavage]

^ brilliant town post by hume

It's just so beautiful -sniff-

[WT Snacks]

^ brilliant town post by hume

Seriously that's a lot of words trying to analyze a mostly RVS.

^ brilliant town post by hume

Stop trying to find a town buddy, long =/= brilliant. What part of his post is brilliant? That part where he asks why someone made a random vote during RVS?

[WT Snacks]

Dammit, first quote is supposed to be of Hume's novel.

[WT Snacks]

On a more srs note:

Revenus is doing zero scumhunting, which is pretty funny coming from someone who claims so vocally to be town. Assuming that dayvig was fake I'm comfortable with where our vote is.

[Hiraki]

Don't tell me what to do scum.

You do realize if you are still alive that you've got this whole mess of shit because you've been complaining about being daykilled rather than actually explaining everything.

Not to mention:

However, the fact that none of you can read sarcasm bodes poorly for this game, and speaks great volumes about your intelligence.

Oh shit, bro. We're all insulted because you acted like a fucking idiot and we called you out on it. Fuck--no one should really give a shit about your alignment at this point. You're a player I don't like and would absolutely adore getting rid of especially in Day 2--a prick. (ex: Nero Cain? Remember that nice bloke?)

In addition, I took the liberty of looking at some of your completed games. Pretty sure you flipped town on all of them and played a fierce and anal game in both of them. This game? The sarcasm card. That's a pretty big flip there, bud.

to the fact that Hiraki has done nothing beyond say that Navarre has done nothing.

Is that why the beginning of my post basically referenced the shitstorm that erupted on Page 1 and gave my opinion on it?

Let's do this whole anal assessment that I believe you pull off in some of your earlier games:

i seriously hope that is a dayvig

Ok--so why would I hope that Revenus dies with a dayvig.

Does it mean that condone or condemn his actions? Pretty sure it's the latter but we're not 100% sure here so let's not assume.

Not to mention, you're just holding a grudge. Not surprising. Your arrogance basically showed that this was expected.

Why do it if it is a waste?

Please--not you too.

He's saying that it's a waste because he doesn't care if it's town or scum. Either way this is a good kill.

- Firstly, there is nothing inherently scummy about avoiding the random voting stage. There is a large segment of town players who do not see any value in the random voting stage.

There's a difference between avoiding RVS and talking about avoiding RVS. Not to go biblical here but it's like the whole gospel segment on praying. You don't brag about it. Applies to real life too.

- Secondly, I think Revenus's second post clearly was a random post or quasi-random post. I can understand one misreading of it, as the director may have done. However, especially after Revenus pointed out it wasn't a serious post, I think most people reading that should see it was not intended seriously. This has two consequences - firstly that actually Revenus did enter the RVS, nullifying evilpacman18's first point and third point, and secondly that the vote was not fully rational and was at least partially informed by chance, nullifying evilpacman18's second point.

But that's the entire point. He voted on a non-serious accusation. That's randomly voting--not to the definition but still pretty close that the differences are small in number. At any rate, your conclusion to this doesn't make any real conclusion. Both of those options are still bad enough, no?

- Thirdly, as town, if you think someone is setting up a future target at the start of D1, you don't shout all about it. When you think "Player X is going to target Player Y", that's a hypothesis. You find out if this hypothesis has any truth or not by testing it. You do that by waiting, and seeing if Player X is actually targeting Player Y. What evilpacman18 has done is prevent his hypothesis from being tested at all, and put forth an assertion with no backing, in a single line.

This is SleepyKrew writing. Don't deny it. You both have proper shark avatars to. #winning

Anyway, while I agree the hypothesis was a little off--the major point I found was that there's an ad hom attack (which is newbie aligned--I'm not particularly sure myself on scum/town alignment) and that there's a random vote, again, from someone who flaunted that he wouldn't do it.

So either we're all making mistakes or Revenus' humor is bad (the second is assured) and the first will get him mislynched if he's town. Either way, I'm not sure on his alignment but I can understand why there may be a vote on him.

(note this was at like 12:30 PM EST)

- Fourth, although I wish it were otherwise, it's not the case that town = polite and scum = rude. There's no particular reason why Revenus insulting people necessarily makes him scum, it could just make him a rather unhelpful town player. There are rather a lot of unhelpful town players.

Yes--which makes a plausible vigshot so fulfilling. In addition, what does this have to do with EPM's post?

I feel as though Hume's trying to find mistakes rather than scumslips in this post.

I dislike this post because it isn't even true. Take a look at Newbie 1156 in ISO. This is exactly how Revenus plays as town. I don't like it. I think it's poor play for town. But that doesn't change the fact that's how Revenus plays as town.

Good work but wrong.

It's true that Revenus plays pretty poorly when under suspicion(among a douchey attitude)--Newbie 1156 proves this point.

What Newbie 1156 doesn't show is Revenus' early game reactions matching up with this game's early game reactions, for example.

topic is way too slow IMO

So you press and argue that someone hinting at being the cop on DAY 1 PAGE 1 is better than late game? Are you serious? Then you back down sayin "oh well since u guys said it was bad, it's bad"


And for those of you telling me to lay down a vote to "speed things up" we have plenty of time to make a decision and laying my vote down randomly is hardly a tool for discussion.

But since this guy is yelling "hey guys i'm scum"

While sure--this game is different because Revenus was exerted into his early tactic of "everyone sucks but me because I'm being targeted" the problem was his posts before it. They're literally nothing alike.

Hey--let's even go with a fucking blast from the past. I've played with Revenus in NY 142.

I don't negotiate with terrorists.

If what you guys say is true

UNVOTE: whoever
VOTE: Beck

For whining about a game that has no bearing on this one.

There's literally a

huge

difference in playstyle here.

Rev isn't a huge dick and makes his point. In this game? It's like you're talking to a fucking wall. The wall won't talk back and if it does, you're insane because whatever the wall said was wrong.

On a more srs note:

Revenus is doing zero scumhunting, which is pretty funny coming from someone who claims so vocally to be town. Assuming that dayvig was fake I'm comfortable with where our vote is.

Give me credit mofo

also because the dayvig was fake (though gj on the whole reaction garnering)

Unvote, Vote: Revenus

Navarre dies next though.

[the director]

- Why does it sound good to you?

Wagons are always good.

There are elements of this I agree with and elements I disagree with. I mean, the first vote, if you look at it, wasn't actually random.

First let me say that while your playstyle is excellent for seeing the "big picture" and being able to trace the stories that players are telling, I would suggest cutting up your walls into two or three separate posts. You play what I like to call "The Lawyer" playstyle, long wordy posts that contain analysis. While a very powerful playstyle, it would be more effective if your thoughts were broken up into bite sized pieces. Just a suggestion.

At any rate, Revenus is playing scared and overcompensating for his concerns with attacks and insults. Here is the story he is telling:

> Posts joke instead of vote in first post. Classic scared entrance. Knows that he should post, but doesn't want to make a splash so makes an awkward joke while waiting to see what the other more confident players are doing. This decision was neither random nor can be written off as "some players don't like placing RVS votes" because he places what he calls an RVS vote in his very next post.

> Votes the anti-wagon voter. This is a very safe play. Instead of being vote four (the bolder and more risky move) on the current wagon, he attacks the player who decides to not jump on the wagon. This is a very defensible position, and as such very safe. This is a theme that I have seen very often.*

> Immediately starts retreating further and further as the heat on him builds. In order to cover his retreat, he drops insults and attacks to cover the fact that he is scared.

It is very likely he is scum, with a small chance that he is a survivalist/newbie townie. Knowing that there is considerable meta on him, it is safe to assume he knows how to play town (and thus not a newbie) and therefore simply does not have a strong scum play.

*Further explanation to what I am talking about.

Player A,B, and C start an RVS wagon.
Player D votes either Player B or C for "weak reasoning to jump on the wagon".
Player E votes player D for "stepping in front of the wagon." <---- this is very easy for Player E to defend and rationalize, and thus is very, very safe.

Revenus is Player E, and is usually a scum slot. Sometimes is a newbie/survivalist townie.

[Xegarus]

He's saying that it's a waste because he doesn't care if it's town or scum. Either way this is a good kill.

If it was a good kill, therefore by definition it would not be a waste.

[JasonWazza]

@MOD: Was Revenus actually DayVig'd in post 32

If that isn't the case (which i now highly doubt considering a VC was posted) then i think Josh has some serious explaining to do.

@

JasonWazza

;

VOTE: Revenus

Clearly scum.

-Why?

Read the next part

@

Everyone

;

First post: joke about RVS voting to avoid RVS voting
Second post: This vote is not random
Third post: Says the vote is random even though it's not random, sets up future target (probably gonna tunnel him by the end of D1) and also attack on intelligence for good measure

This post does not read town to me for the following reasons.
- Firstly, there is nothing inherently scummy about avoiding the random voting stage. There is a large segment of town players who do not see any value in the random voting stage.
- Secondly, I think Revenus's second post clearly was a random post or quasi-random post. I can understand one misreading of it, as the director may have done. However, especially after Revenus pointed out it wasn't a serious post, I think most people reading that should see it was not intended seriously. This has two consequences - firstly that actually Revenus did enter the RVS, nullifying evilpacman18's first point and third point, and secondly that the vote was not fully rational and was at least partially informed by chance, nullifying evilpacman18's second point.
- Thirdly, as town, if you think someone is setting up a future target at the start of D1, you don't shout all about it. When you think "Player X is going to target Player Y", that's a hypothesis. You find out if this hypothesis has any truth or not by testing it. You do that by waiting, and seeing if Player X

is

actually targeting Player Y. What evilpacman18 has done is prevent his hypothesis from being tested at all, and put forth an assertion with no backing, in a single line.
- Fourth, although I wish it were otherwise, it's not the case that town = polite and scum = rude. There's no particular reason why Revenus insulting people necessarily makes him scum, it could just make him a rather unhelpful town player. There are rather a lot of unhelpful town players.

Firstly, Who gives a shit, that wasn't the bad part
Secondly, so he's allowed to be against random voting and then random vote? Even though he see's no point in it? I honestly don't see how it nullifys ANY of his point's other then the fact that you are willing to bypass them by any means nessecary.

Fact, clearly he is against RVing, Also Fact, He RV'd.

Call me odd but most of the time i don't do something i am against.

Thirdly, It doesn't stop something look like it is going that way.
Forthly, Being a prick doesn't make him anything but anti-town i agree, but the way he is RVing makes him seem anti town.

The only random vote in RVS is the first one. Everyone else then reacts to that vote and makes a decision with some (albeit very small) amount of knowledge. You reacted to that first vote by deciding to not vote, then voted on someone who didn't jump on a quick wagon, then went on the attack.

There are elements of this I agree with and elements I disagree with. I mean, the first vote, if you look at it, wasn't actually random. Someone voted for GoldenMean because they dislike maths. They didn't throw a dice or consult an RNG, they formed a reason and moved from that reason to a vote. We call it random because the reason was irrelevant to the actual game - the reason for our vote will produce no better an outcome than random. As such, there are definitely more random votes than solely the first one. If I am the first poster and just say "I'm voting Player X because I dislike consonants", then the next poster doesn't really have that much of a relevant reason either in the sense that reason is strongly likely to produce any particular outcome. The more information we get, the less random our votes will become, but it isn't an instant process.

TL;DR
His vote wasn't random but in the sense of information it was.

Also from a read of other games of yours, you're not nearly so hostile or pretentious of town. You sound like being in the informed minority is giving you a superiority complex.

I dislike this post because it isn't even true. Take a look at Newbie 1156 in ISO. This is exactly how Revenus plays as town. I don't like it. I think it's poor play for town. But that doesn't change the fact that's how Revenus plays as town.

I love how people use the meta defense, if you are gonna seriously defend people with meta prove that he doesn't do it as scum as well.

And to piggyoff that; the director's reaction to evilpacman's claim is townish because A. it implies he went through and glanced at the games and B. came to a good conclusion.

Not really. The name of this thread implies there are two mafia teams. piggyoff could be scum, and B. would still be a useful conclusion because from his perspective lynching enemy scum actually makes the odds much better for him than lynching enemy town.

Gonna bang on a bit of theory here, Killing the enemy scum team is only actually good for either scum team if you feel the scum team is gonna kill one of you, more kills on town= game over sooner= less slips

On more general thoughts, I'd like it if people started putting slightly more elaborated reasons in their posts. I'm seeing a lot of "you've done X, therefore you are scum", without explaining why doing X necessitates that someone is scum. As for me, I'm going to put my vote on VOTE: evilpacman18 because I'd like to hear why he decided that using incomplete meta was valuable and why asserting someone is creating future targets on the basis of a single post is of any use.

OK let's turn this around, why is using Revenus's uncomplete meta valuable?

It goe's both fucking ways your using only his town meta, does he do it as scum?

If yes then this defense doesn't actually make the tell town, it makes it null, in which case he still could be very easily scum.

^ brilliant town post by hume

It's just so beautiful -sniff-

Hey what is your opinion on everything else Jacob?
Or are you gonna be a useless anti-town pain in the ass?

He's saying that it's a waste because he doesn't care if it's town or scum. Either way this is a good kill.

If it was a good kill, therefore by definition it would not be a waste.

Kill the lurker is a good kill but can easily be made out to be a waste.

Same with almost any kill, the idea of the kill is to hit scum, not hit the anti-town Town players.

[JacobSavage]

Or are you gonna be a useless anti-town pain in the ass?

I was going to stick with the usual program, so yes... I probably will.

[Josh Lyman]

also because the dayvig was fake (though gj on the whole reaction garnering)

Thank you. (And Jason, that should answer your question.)

unvote

Vote: Revenus

[WT Snacks]

vote Xegarus

Clearly trying to derail the wagon on his scumbuddy gg

So Revenus, you're still voting your "random" vote. How come?

[the director]

Just realized we have a Jacob, Josh, and Jason in the game. This ... may get confusing.

[Revenus]

First, I want clarification on if the dayvig was fake. Assuming it's not

Vote:Josh

If you are town and rolled with a fake dayvig, I can only assume you were looking for certain reactions from people in general. You don't explain this at all, and in fact, you tell me to "shut up" when I'm freaking out, and then your next post after the mod posts is "thank you". My assumption is that then you are scum and that you were hoping for some sort of PR crumb.

@WTSnacks

You do realize that analyzing RVS is WHY most of my wagon is attacking me right? If you didn't read it, then why are you even

[Hiraki]

You mean...he pretended to shot

you

in order to get a reaction from

you

in order to further his read on

you

Does anyone see a pattern here?

And why would he ever assume that you were a PR?

[Revenus]

oops sorry, hit submit without finishing my post


(post 68 continued)


...why are you even commenting on my reaction to it? Why do I think it's town? He quickly finds the basic flaw against my case, so I love it obviously. Also, at the same time, he looks at the rest of the posts in a logical composed manner; he finds the same faults with pacman's vote on me as I did.

Revenus is doing zero scumhunting, which is pretty funny coming from someone who claims so vocally to be town. Assuming that dayvig was fake I'm comfortable with where our vote is.

You do realize I thought I got dayvigged right? I'm not running around shouting that I'm town before this bro.
and then

So Revenus, you're still voting your "random" vote. How come?

Again, thought I was dayvigged, why would I bother voting someone in that case? No one is going to look at the dead townie's opinion who was running around like a dead chicken with his head cut off.

And then you say I'm fine with where "we're" going today with the lynch. Null on that, but then that implies that you agree with the reasoning for my wagon. Then go fucking read Hume's post and you'll see why his "useless RVS discussion" is actually quite useful.


Finally: To Hiraki. I read through your wall and I'm gonna get to one thing; you posted 4 random quotes from two games in which I had like 700 combined. Furthermore, our NY game was over a year and a half ago...

There's literally a huge difference in playstyle here.

Rev isn't a huge dick and makes his point. In this game? It's like you're talking to a fucking wall. The wall won't talk back and if it does, you're insane because whatever the wall said was wrong.

Again, you posting 2 random quotes from this game means nothing, and I went back and looked and I had almost 0 pressure at that point.

Don't like that you're trying to justify the dayvig; just come out and say you think I'm useless and you won't look so disingenuous. However, the fact that you actually reacted to the dayvig in a 'townish' way "oh, Josh vigged a player I think is useless" is good; you're still an ass. We'll throw you in the null/town pile for now.

@thedirector

Your point is contingent on my 'rvs' vote being serious; it wasn't and it still isn't. I will give you a point in that I'm not the best dealing with pressure, but this is again depedent on the pressure. Look at it from my point of view; people are literally taking what I put down as a joke vote and voting me for it, all under the pretense of assuming that it wasn't a joke vote. Let me ask you this; if you KNOW that my first few posts are joking, does that change your case at all on me, or is it now because I reacted poorly to the 'pressure' on me?

Also for hume's point earlier on thedirector (and jason addressed this too); assuming we have 2 scum teams, if they're going to help town find the other scumteam, I really don't care at this point, and plus, thedirector's post was less 'throwing dirt' on potential scum, and more 'i'll think independently about it/i need some proof first', which is good IMO.


pedit: Did he say that? No? What was the reaction he was looking for? I'm assuming since he didn't post about any of that he was looking for a PR crumb.

[Revenus]

Finally, Jason is townish for his most recent post. But @Jason; I did the same thing in our game (newbie 1302) in regards to claiming, and this specific example was me under far more pressure, so take that as you will.

And finally, since we're using quotes from old games against me

This is me under some pressure in NY 142 (you can take a look at any of the posts around this one, but here's an example from day 1)

Anyways, vote me. If you people can barely grasp the concept of scumhunting or improving town play on d1 to set up further days, then I feel sorry for players like Pine who clearly think they're good at this game. If Faraday is town (which he is), then town should follow him like the pied piper because he seems like the only one in this game who actually has a grip and is trying. And he's a replacement.

or

the plot twist is that Pine is probably on Beck's level of ineptitude.

or

Anyways, feel free to lynch me, your town will lose as soon as scum picks off the remaining players who have a brain.

Not using this to go "OH HEY I'M DEFTOWN", but if you're going to use random quotes from a game to attack me, and go 'he didn't do any of this' to refer to my behavior this game, then I'm sure as hell going to defend myself with quotes from the same game. Note: I didn't even really go looking for these, I scrolled down to the middle of my iso, and boom, so

@to Hiraki

Don't be disingenuous.

[Hiraki]

You scrolled through your ISO and found some posts that confirmed stuff I already said?

What a coincidence!

[Josh Lyman]

No one is going to look at the dead townie's opinion who was running around like a dead chicken with his head cut off.

See, here, you're wrong. If you were indeed town, you would've (hopefully) provided reads and other thoughts. After a townflip, we'd know they were Town thoughts.

pedit: Did he say that? No? What was the reaction he was looking for? I'm assuming since he didn't post about any of that he was looking for a PR crumb.

I was not looking for any specific reaction, I was just looking for any reaction. And I got one. And I'm voting you, because you're scum.

[Revenus]

Exactly, how does that confirm stuff about what you said?

Was I under attack by page 1 in either of those games? No? So what the fuck are you talking about.


pedit: So any reaction to me being dayvigged=scum. Oh.

And as far as

See, here, you're wrong. If you were indeed town, you would've (hopefully) provided reads and other thoughts. After a townflip, we'd know they were Town thoughts.

If you look at post 30/31, there were my reads up to the point where I got shot, unless you're asking me to give thoughts on the entire game; that's fucking contrived.

And finally your second point is gigantic heaping mountain of bullshit. You know how many people are going to pay attention to the dead townie's opinion from 3 pages into d1? 0. It's the same principle with lynched townies on d1; how often do people look at the opinions of d1 lynched townies to find scum? The whole reason they were mislynched is because town *didn't* think the dead townies were credible.

Right now, from what I see, you call me useless, blam blam, fake dayvig, then vote me, because in your words "I reacted". Durrrr