Mini 1414: Mafia and Werewolves - Game Over

[Hume]

Spoiler:

vote Xegarus

Clearly trying to derail the wagon on his scumbuddy gg

Huh?

If you are saying that he was derailing a wagon on his scumbuddy, that implies you think Xegarus (no votes) and Golden Mean (3 votes) are both scum. Why vote for the one with no votes instead of the one who already has a wagon on him already?

Huh?

If you are taking my RVS vote seriously you are probably scum or a moron. We'll see.

VOTE: Revenus

Clearly scum.

Revenus is scum lol.

First post: joke about RVS voting to avoid RVS voting
Second post: This vote is not random
Third post: Says the vote is random even though it's not random, sets up future target (probably gonna tunnel him by the end of D1) and also attack on intelligence for good measure

vote: Revenus

pre-edit
Ah Jason beat me to it.

Huh?

If you are taking my RVS vote seriously you are probably scum or a moron. We'll see.

The only random vote in RVS is the first one. Everyone else then reacts to that vote and makes a decision with some (albeit very small) amount of knowledge. You reacted to that first vote by deciding to not vote, then voted on someone who didn't jump on a quick wagon, then went on the attack.

That being said, you called two people scum and voted for the lesser wagon. Are you now saying that Golden is not actually scum?

What I meant to say is, bitch please. If you can't tell I was being sarcastic, then please replace out.

Going hostile so soon? Tsk tsk. Surely you aren't trying to hide a tell so soon by overcompensating with attacks.

And all my insults and hositlity have not been jokes, because honestly this 'suspicion' so far is retarded.

Yes you can be joking in it, but pretending everything you have done is a joke because your getting suspicion is bad, and extremely scummy.

I fucking was joking in my first two posts, so don't say it's pretending.

RVS is supposed to get us information, not to be a big joke that gets us no where.

RVS IS a big joke and the fact that you pretend like you're able to get information from it is stupid; anything gained from RVS is negligible at best. Don't be retarded.

And to director; you can call me scared, but you're wrong.

You CAN get information from it, that is the idea of RVS to get us information that we can start the game from, You pretending it's just a big joke is terrible.

Yes you can be joking in it, but pretending everything you have done is a joke because your getting suspicion is bad, and extremely scummy.

Also from a read of other games of yours, you're not nearly so hostile or pretentious of town. You sound like being in the informed minority is giving you a superiority complex.

You already read through all my other games? Really?

RVS is supposed to get us information, not to be a big joke that gets us no where.

RVS IS a big joke and the fact that you pretend like you're able to get information from it is stupid; anything gained from RVS is negligible at best. Don't be retarded.

And to director; you can call me scared, but you're wrong.

Also from a read of other games of yours, you're not nearly so hostile or pretentious of town. You sound like being in the informed minority is giving you a superiority complex.

Considering every game he has been in is a freaking novel, I'm going to need you to link the games you based this read on or I'm going to classify it as hearsay and unproven.

@Revenus - Alarm bells are ringing, my friend. You have now gone from calling two people scum, to only the person you are voting is scum, to now no one is scum, all under the dual reasoning of "RVS" and "sarcasm". Interlaced in your posts is attacks, insults, and aggression. You are painting a picture of a player who is clearly very scared.

The fact that your joking about thing's isn't good.

RVS is supposed to get us information, not to be a big joke that gets us no where.

But, ok, in all seriousness, I'll try to make my sarcasm a little more obvious to the more dense of you people, and the fact that pacman is using 2 joke posts to attack me is seriously stupid.

And I'll try to be nice from now on.

Also from a read of other games of yours, you're not nearly so hostile or pretentious of town. You sound like being in the informed minority is giving you a superiority complex.

That being said, you called two people scum and voted for the lesser wagon. Are you now saying that Golden is not actually scum?

I wasn't saying either of them were scum because I was joking.

However, the fact that none of you can read sarcasm bodes poorly for this game, and speaks great volumes about your intelligence.

Second post: This vote is not random
Third post: Says the vote is random even though it's not random, sets up future target (probably gonna tunnel him by the end of D1) and also attack on intelligence for good measure

What I meant to say is, bitch please. If you can't tell I was being sarcastic, then please replace out.

man you caught me already, u must be undefeated as town u r so good at this game

vote Xegarus

Clearly trying to derail the wagon on his scumbuddy gg

VOTE: Director
Doesn't sound good to me.

Sounds good to me.

VOTE: Golden Mean

VOTE: Golden Mean

wagon wagon go go go

look at me rvs voting

Vote: Golden Mean

I hate math.

The vote isn't a joke, there is a vote there, how is that a joke?

But i find it funny you only addressed that part.

P-Edit: So being a prick is gonna help the town?

Seriously the suspicion is not retarded.

The vote is still a joke; are you seriously attacking me on this?

I don't have any suspicions on scum yet, so therefore, none because right now everyone attacking me is equally stupid and so right now I'm trying to find out which one of you legit thinks is stupid, and which one of you are faking it.


pedit: None of the votes count so far? /confused

Sorry, slow internet. I copy-pasted the first Vote Count but my internet died before I could fix it.

Fixed now.

VOTE: WT snacks

Keep the votes coming people!

So Rev, who do you think is most likely to be 'faking' it?

VOTE: WT snacks

Keep the votes coming people!

Got nothing to say about what is going on?

~ Used a spoiler to hide this post.

Welll damn. I'd literally just typed up a long post aimed at Revenus, Jason and pac and I get ninja'd by a Dayvig of all things.

[Hume]

EBWOP: Whaaaaat. All the multi-quotes from my super long post carried into my quick reply despite clearing them? Sorry for that clusterfuck, guys. Rapidcanyon, you mind cleaning that post up?

[Hume]

Also Hume: type out what you were gonna type out anyways IMO

pedit: I *was* curious about why you quoted everything.

If you check my meta you can see why I do that. I play by quoting pretty much everything between my last post and the current post, then delete piece by piece stuff I'm not interested in following through further. I ask questions based on the remaining material. I'll retype the gist of my original post shortly.

[Hume]

@

the director

;

Sounds good to me. VOTE: Golden Mean

- Why does it sound good to you?


@

Xegarus

;

VOTE: Director Doesn't sound good to me.

- Why not?


@

JasonWazza

;

VOTE: Revenus

Clearly scum.

-Why?


@

Everyone

;

First post: joke about RVS voting to avoid RVS voting
Second post: This vote is not random
Third post: Says the vote is random even though it's not random, sets up future target (probably gonna tunnel him by the end of D1) and also attack on intelligence for good measure

This post does not read town to me for the following reasons.
- Firstly, there is nothing inherently scummy about avoiding the random voting stage. There is a large segment of town players who do not see any value in the random voting stage.
- Secondly, I think Revenus's second post clearly was a random post or quasi-random post. I can understand one misreading of it, as the director may have done. However, especially after Revenus pointed out it wasn't a serious post, I think most people reading that should see it was not intended seriously. This has two consequences - firstly that actually Revenus did enter the RVS, nullifying evilpacman18's first point and third point, and secondly that the vote was not fully rational and was at least partially informed by chance, nullifying evilpacman18's second point.
- Thirdly, as town, if you think someone is setting up a future target at the start of D1, you don't shout all about it. When you think "Player X is going to target Player Y", that's a hypothesis. You find out if this hypothesis has any truth or not by testing it. You do that by waiting, and seeing if Player X

is

actually targeting Player Y. What evilpacman18 has done is prevent his hypothesis from being tested at all, and put forth an assertion with no backing, in a single line.
- Fourth, although I wish it were otherwise, it's not the case that town = polite and scum = rude. There's no particular reason why Revenus insulting people necessarily makes him scum, it could just make him a rather unhelpful town player. There are rather a lot of unhelpful town players.

The only random vote in RVS is the first one. Everyone else then reacts to that vote and makes a decision with some (albeit very small) amount of knowledge. You reacted to that first vote by deciding to not vote, then voted on someone who didn't jump on a quick wagon, then went on the attack.

There are elements of this I agree with and elements I disagree with. I mean, the first vote, if you look at it, wasn't actually random. Someone voted for GoldenMean because they dislike maths. They didn't throw a dice or consult an RNG, they formed a reason and moved from that reason to a vote. We call it random because the reason was irrelevant to the actual game - the reason for our vote will produce no better an outcome than random. As such, there are definitely more random votes than solely the first one. If I am the first poster and just say "I'm voting Player X because I dislike consonants", then the next poster doesn't really have that much of a relevant reason either in the sense that reason is strongly likely to produce any particular outcome. The more information we get, the less random our votes will become, but it isn't an instant process.

Also from a read of other games of yours, you're not nearly so hostile or pretentious of town. You sound like being in the informed minority is giving you a superiority complex.

I dislike this post because it isn't even true. Take a look at Newbie 1156 in ISO. This is exactly how Revenus plays as town. I don't like it. I think it's poor play for town. But that doesn't change the fact that's how Revenus plays as town.

And to piggyoff that; the director's reaction to evilpacman's claim is townish because A. it implies he went through and glanced at the games and B. came to a good conclusion.

Not really. The name of this thread implies there are two mafia teams. piggyoff could be scum, and B. would still be a useful conclusion because from his perspective lynching enemy scum actually makes the odds much better for him than lynching enemy town.

Hush, you're dead.

I'd prefer he kept talking because if he flips town, we'll know what he said was what he thought was true.


On more general thoughts, I'd like it if people started putting slightly more elaborated reasons in their posts. I'm seeing a lot of "you've done X, therefore you are scum", without explaining why doing X necessitates that someone is scum. As for me, I'm going to put my vote on VOTE: evilpacman18 because I'd like to hear why he decided that using incomplete meta was valuable and why asserting someone is creating future targets on the basis of a single post is of any use.

[Hume]

EBWOP: Where I said "piggyoff", I obviously meant "the director".

[Hume]

Uh, rapid? Fairly sure I am voting.

~ My mistake. Fixed.

[Hume]

Response for Hikari:

There's a difference between avoiding RVS and talking about avoiding RVS. Not to go biblical here but it's like the whole gospel segment on praying. You don't brag about it. Applies to real life too.

Why not? Why does talking about the fact you don't like RVS make you scummy? What's the line of logic there? I don't like RVS. I'll say that straight up. I can imagine why others may also not like it. How does that make me or them scummy?

But that's the entire point. He voted on a non-serious accusation. That's randomly voting--not to the definition but still pretty close that the differences are small in number. At any rate, your conclusion to this doesn't make any real conclusion. Both of those options are still bad enough, no?

Not necessarily when there's not any further reasoning behind them. I'm not convinced.

This is SleepyKrew writing. Don't deny it. You both have proper shark avatars to. #winning

I'm not Sleepy Krew, but if I ever meet him I'll pass on the compliment.

Anyway, while I agree the hypothesis was a little off--the major point I found was that there's an ad hom attack (which is newbie aligned--I'm not particularly sure myself on scum/town alignment) and that there's a random vote, again, from someone who flaunted that he wouldn't do it.

So either we're all making mistakes or Revenus' humor is bad (the second is assured) and the first will get him mislynched if he's town. Either way, I'm not sure on his alignment but I can understand why there may be a vote on him.

This part I can agree on. Personally, I think he's town. On the other hand, if he were to be the subject of the lynch, I can't say I'd weep for him, because looking back over the last few pages he's reached the point where his antics have become so central to what we're talking about they're distracting from other possible values.

Yes--which makes a plausible vigshot so fulfilling. In addition, what does this have to do with EPM's post?

EPM said he was insulting people's intelligence and that made him scum. I was pointing out being insulting probably doesn't actually correlate that will with being scum. It had quite a lot to do with EPM's post and I question how well you actually read both his post and mine if you couldn't see that.

Good work but wrong.

-shrugs- I disagree with your interpretation and stand by my original reading. I simply don't see it the same way you do.

Response to the director:

Wagons are always good.

Factually not true when they can lead to a quicklynch and shut down a day before town can get any information. See my first game, Newbie 1311.

At any rate, Revenus is playing scared and overcompensating for his concerns with attacks and insults. Here is the story he is telling:

clipped for length

Hmm. You actually present a good case and I can see how that would work much better than Hikari's argument. You've altered my read somewhat.

Secondly, so he's allowed to be against random voting and then random vote? Even though he see's no point in it? I honestly don't see how it nullifys ANY of his point's other then the fact that you are willing to bypass them by any means nessecary.

Fact, clearly he is against RVing, Also Fact, He RV'd.

And? I often do the same. Maybe it's because I've only really played newbie-tier games both on this site and others, but if you don't engage in the RVS, everyone starts bitching at you for the next day. I don't want town to be bitching at me when they could be scum-hunting. On the other hand, if nobody ever indicates they think RVS is shit, then the fact a large group of people think RVS is shit isn't going to spread. I think it's perfectly possible to therefore say "I hate RVS, but frankly I don't have the energy to argue about something that would be better off in Mafia Discussion than an actual game, so w/e random VOTE: Bob".

I love how people use the meta defense, if you are gonna seriously defend people with meta prove that he doesn't do it as scum as well.

No. evilpacman's hypothesis was: "Player X behaves with characteristics Y if and only if they are scum." "Player X is currently behaving with characteristics Y", therefore "Player X is scum". If I can prove the premise that "Player X behaves with characteristics Y if and only if they are scum" wrong, then the conclusion is wrong. That's what I did, by pointing out he behaves pretty similarly when scum. I'm not saying this therefore makes him town. I'm just saying it doesn't necessitate that he is scum. I'm not really concerned with defending Revenus per se, I just thought evilpacman's attack was really rather dodgy - rather than defending Revenus I was attacking evilpacman's attack.

Gonna bang on a bit of theory here, Killing the enemy scum team is only actually good for either scum team if you feel the scum team is gonna kill one of you, more kills on town= game over sooner= less slips

On the other hand, higher chance you die at night. -shrugs-

OK let's turn this around, why is using Revenus's uncomplete meta valuable?

It goe's both fucking ways your using only his town meta, does he do it as scum?

If yes then this defense doesn't actually make the tell town, it makes it null, in which case he still could be very easily scum.

Answered these above.

Okay, going to do some ISO'ing then post a scum read. Will be up either tonight or tomorrow night depending on how long it takes.

Also on a total sidenote, YOLO: love the avatar.

[Hume]

EBWOP: where it says "values" it should say "avenues".

[Hume]

I'm really sorry, guys. I've had one of those days that ended up metastasizing and turning into one of those weeks, pretty much. I'm basically through it now, but I'm absolutely knackered and it's late-ish where I am and I need some sleep. This is basically just a prod dodge post but it comes with the guarantee of a decent post tomorrow. Hope that's okay for now.