Mini 1438: Gonzo Mafia (Scum Win)

[buldermar]

"but it does stand out to me how you were trying to paint me as waffling" The deadline is in 24 hrs and you are the 1) only player not to cast a vote today or 2) make a definitive stance on where you are leaning.

If that's not waffling, I don't know what is.

So you find it better to constantly be changing your opinion and possibly contribute to an accidental hammer? I've never understood MS's obsession with votes, it's quite retarded. Only votes that actually leads to a lynch counts for anything.

Consider my vote on rem for trying to setup a mislynch of me tomorrow based on a multitude of straw men. There is also the possibility that he actually thought he did hammer and was just trying to quickly manipulate mollie prior to Majiffy closing the day with what he had already planned for tomorrow - havn't looked into it.

Remembrance (L-2): I Am Innocent
I Am Innocent (L-2): SE-Asians
buldermar (L-1): Remembrance, pirate mollie

Not Voting: buldermar

With 5 alive, it takes 3 to lynch.
Deadline is on Sunday, June 16th at 8:00 PM EST.

[buldermar]

Actually, fuck it. I don't even need to make sure I don't hammer.

VOTE: Rem

Reading the rest now as well.

[buldermar]

Should be noted that his revised plan outted the docs, which is worse than Nacho's plan.

What??

1) How so? Prove it.
2) If so, why didn't you point it out until now?

[buldermar]

Bulder, come out come out wherever you are...

I'm here. I was here yesterday as well, but there was major server lag.

[buldermar]

you hammer after asking a question of buldey in which he has had no time to answer

Rem didn't subsequently deny hammering, which leads me to conclude that he did indeed think he hammered.

[buldermar]

Oh well.

I think Buldermar is the last scum

personally. He forgets way to much and it sticks to what he imagines himself to be as scum, someone who doesn't say anything that is necessarily scummy, yet somehow votes wrong when he should vote right. Plausible deniability is a scum tell and Buldermar has excelled at it. He has not pressured people, but has taken on a more fatalistic stance, he reneged on a read that he seemed absolutely sure of. And did it using someone he himself thought was scum along with most of the town and for good reason. And then reveals he had no special reason for the read and has given one of the worst reasons for thinking someone is town I've seen in a while. There is so much there, but he never looks in the right places or concentrates on the right things.

His two hunting contributions for scum hunting are things that someone had pointed out or said before. It doesn't feel right.

Part of me wanted to keep Se-Asians here and just ask him to vote Buldermar and then get IaI to vote Buldermar with me. But I couldn't do that because he just wasn't active enough. So this is it.

So you decide to hammer IAI and in the very same post point out that you think I am the last scum. Then you present reasons for thinking I'm scum that could have been presented a long time ago, but wasn't. Why?

[I Am Innocent]

Do you realise we just claim PR? What cops are you talking about?

I mean I like Nacho's original suggestion.

My thoughts are as follows:

Cops investigate, and then claim next day. No discussion about that.

Docs have two jobs, try to successfully protect, and stay silent. Why stay silent, because I'd rather have a N2 Doc get killed N3 than a N3 or N4 or N5 cop. And if a N2 Doc outs himself D2, that ain't gonna happen.

Going forward, Docs don't claim.

SE-Asians (L-4): I Am Innocent, Human Destroyer, kuror0
buldermar (L-6): SE-Asians
borkjerfkin (L-6): pirate mollie
Wisdom (L-3): Nachomamma8, buldermar, borkjerfkin, Fate
Fate (L-4): mantisdreamz, Remembrance, Wisdom

Not Voting: AngelusW

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.
Deadline is April 13th at 9:30 PM EST

For bulder

[buldermar]

Do you realise we just claim PR? What cops are you talking about?

I mean I like Nacho's original suggestion.

My thoughts are as follows:

Cops investigate, and then claim next day. No discussion about that.

Docs have two jobs, try to successfully protect, and stay silent. Why stay silent, because I'd rather have a N2 Doc get killed N3 than a N3 or N4 or N5 cop. And if a N2 Doc outs himself D2, that ain't gonna happen.

Going forward, Docs don't claim.

SE-Asians (L-4): I Am Innocent, Human Destroyer, kuror0
buldermar (L-6): SE-Asians
borkjerfkin (L-6): pirate mollie
Wisdom (L-3): Nachomamma8, buldermar, borkjerfkin, Fate
Fate (L-4): mantisdreamz, Remembrance, Wisdom

Not Voting: AngelusW

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.
Deadline is April 13th at 9:30 PM EST

For bulder

Alright, and how was my strategy inferior?

[I Am Innocent]

Alright, and how was my strategy inferior?

It is of my opinion that:

Docs have two jobs, try to successfully protect, and stay silent. Why stay silent, because I'd rather have a N2 Doc get killed N3 than a N3 or N4 or N5 cop. And if a N2 Doc outs himself D2, that ain't gonna happen.

Your method only focuses on the 1st part of that (successfully protect), not the second (stay silent).

By staying silent, it 1) keeps the pool of remaining unknown player roles larger later in the game which in essence helps keep future cops hidden, and 2) the scum will never know what night a doc has his protection so they will always have to decide whether or not to risk shooting a known cop that night or going after the pool of unknowns.

For example, at least one of you and Remembrance are legit doctors. Scum knew that person's powers were gone by N3, N4 etc. So they didn't have to worry about you or him protecting HD or Jon, they just killed away. Imagine if they did not know that power was expended....then it would have made the decision on who to kill the last two nights that much more difficult.

*****************

Mollie, what say you?

[I Am Innocent]

Mollie, since your alt unvote did not count, it looks like the voting is:

Remembrance (L-1): I Am Innocent, buldermar
I Am Innocent (L-2): SE-Asians
buldermar (L-1): Remembrance, pirate mollie

If you are insistent on bulder, let me know and I'll switch my vote. If you think Remembrance is the best bet, all you have to do is switch your vote. If you still think I'm the best bet, I'm sure one of Remembrance and bulder will follow you.

***************

If a D6 is needed, and we are at MyLo, (Asians protection goes through or scum decide not to NK,) then there is no concern of one mistaken vote ending the game quickly. Still, I would suggest Mollie to be the last vote that day.

If it is LyLo, Mollie should once again be the last vote that day. If both other players insist they feel Mollie is town, then those other 2 players should vote each other, and if Mollie does not quick vote one of then, she is confirmed town and both players can build their cases for Mollie to choose from.

[Remembrance]

Hi.

[Remembrance]

If does point to a town alignment when a town-hydra specifically is more likely to do something as a joke than is a scum-hydra. It isn't the only thing regarding him. We were talking about one thing specifically, which I found, and now you're holding it against me that I didn't find other things as well that you never asked for and I never saw an incentive to find.

Using this reasoning to be 100% confident of a town read is ridiculous. And there was no further incentive because you barely mentioned Se-Asians, you barely made cases any cases for people including him.

[Remembrance]

You barely pushed for it.

"It sounds like" is just as easy a push as anything else "Well, actually I misinterpreted it" is the easiest thing to back out of in the world.

furthermore you also accused IaI of "sounding like"

We can't both be scum Buldermar.

[Remembrance]

This isn't the product of someone who is actually thinking of what they're doing as town. Simply deciding what they need to do to win as scum. He used the logic that he himself disagreed with earlier in the game to renege on his town read of me. He consistently challenged players that had me as scum or suspected me, yet now I learn he had nothing in particular that made him have that belief. Why? What is the purpose of doing that? Why did he invite me to a town block when he had nothing substantial the whole game that warranted that conviction?

You are making up something again. This time you're making up that I did not have something substantial because I cannot currently remember one particular post. I'm sure that if I go back, I can figure out why I read you as town and what I was thinking regarding specific posts, but you never made a point of this being so important to you (presumeably because you were hoping for this particular scenario to base a push on).

Actually, you can't remember a variety of posts.

[Remembrance]

"I was not hoping for"

I didn't imagine you would have nothing. Who would expect that?

[Remembrance]

You've been in this game for 3 months.

[Remembrance]

"but it does stand out to me how you were trying to paint me as waffling" The deadline is in 24 hrs and you are the 1) only player not to cast a vote today or 2) make a definitive stance on where you are leaning.

If that's not waffling, I don't know what is.

So you find it better to constantly be changing your opinion and possibly contribute to an accidental hammer? I've never understood MS's obsession with votes, it's quite retarded. Only votes that actually leads to a lynch counts for anything.

Consider my vote on rem for trying to setup a mislynch of me tomorrow based on a multitude of straw men. There is also the possibility that he actually thought he did hammer and was just trying to quickly manipulate mollie prior to Majiffy closing the day with what he had already planned for tomorrow - havn't looked into it.

Remembrance (L-2): I Am Innocent
I Am Innocent (L-2): SE-Asians
buldermar (L-1): Remembrance, pirate mollie

Not Voting: buldermar

With 5 alive, it takes 3 to lynch.
Deadline is on Sunday, June 16th at 8:00 PM EST.

If you haven't even looked at it. Then how can you confirm or deny something or even speculate on it.

[Remembrance]

Buldermar it's not about "looking back to find" You should have reasons to start with, it's scary that you don't have many reasons when I dig.

You concentrated on a plan, forgot things, accused IaI via soft pushes after attacking you, asked IaI for a case which you never and continue not to look at and while still not looking at it prioritize voting me over the person you thought scum slipped yesterday.

[Remembrance]

Buldermar's case for Se-Asians is strange. I've pointed out things that make Se-Asians most likely town, but Buldermar didn't, Nothing in that quote actually points to a town alignment, the information just points to the possibility that he joked around about his fake claim, yet he satisfied himself with it and then used that to town read him (to the point of excluding him as a possibility) he then goes on to compliment him for a "brilliant" plan that he won't elaborate on. It might not be what Se was thinking(or if Se-Asians even had a plan at all), it is essentially an under the table compliment that is untraceable.

If does point to a town alignment when a town-hydra specifically is more likely to do something as a joke than is a scum-hydra. It isn't the only thing regarding him. We were talking about one thing specifically, which I found, and now you're holding it against me that I didn't find other things as well that you never asked for and I never saw an incentive to find.

I didn't say it was a plan IIRC, but if I did use the word plan that was misleading. He is doing a brilliant thing in announcing that he is protecting mollie because it frees him up to protect others as well while still guaranteeing that mollie isn't nk'ed because scum can't know for sure whether he actually protects mollie 100% of the time or some lower percentage of the time. I was positive that this is what he intended to do because he phrased his post like "actually I'M PROTECTING MOLLIE" or something like that with emphasis on protecting mollie.

Fuck you for pushing this retarded point of me giving him some sort of under the table compliment.

Awesome. This is way more in line with your scum meta.

[Remembrance]

Buldermar that plan of Se's is far from Brilliant. That's standard doc play. /:

[Remembrance]

Going to write some stuff I tried that might not indicate alignment.

Mollie when you did that thing where you asked about the "Karma/I hope you're town 'rem", I realized it has the effect of causing the player to reciprocate/reassure the player, I don't know if Town or Maf are more likely to do it, but from another game I've seen some players be rejected on invitations to chat/prompts by Mafia so I tried doing it on IaI, but he never tried to reassure me near the end of yesterday. I was wondering if he just lacks in empathy because he has been accusing me of being scum for 3 months or if it was the sometimes apathetic Mafia reading that tend to fail to pick up on such ques.

Se-Asians replace out was slightly strange as IaI mentioned, he said he was currently reading when he got replaced and I was surprised when he didn't try to contribute to us at the last minute like Rubicon did.

Se-Asians posted in other threads but tended to wait till the last moment to post in our thread. I know activity analysis is mostly crap and some players prefer other games. But he was frequently going over the two day limit. While occasionally still posting elsewhere. He relied on us not prodding him multiple times when he could have been forced replaced much earlier, but sometimes posted elsewhere after the 2 day limit had been reached. Not sure if town or scum indicative, "trust indicative" maybe. It's probably null as I can see it being either one.

IaI hadn't involved himself with Buldermar or this push to an extent that is slightly lower than I was expecting. It was basically a summarization and an "I too think these things, maybe" It keeps his head down. But I swear to god that I think this is the most generic argument ever and who knows how many times this has been stated by both alignments both correctly and incorrectly. Probably need further questioning or additional tells/more precise analysis that allows for this kind of thing to work.

Mollie never put her dancing shoes on.

I didn't try anything unique or weird with Buldermar. I didn't think I'd have to. This game has taught me the dangers of having an early strong town read on someone and announcing it though. I really should have pressured him more to get a better idea of his alignment. I stalled way too long on reading his meta, he was one of the last. And I'm starting to understand the value of reading meta early. Sometimes it's a waste of time. But occasionally it can be the key to figuring out a person's play, it would have helped solidify his alignment in my mind better than it is right now.

I don't know if any of that is useful or not, but it might be something else to mull over or maybe it is significant in someway that I don't understand yet. Not that there isn't already enough.

It would be funny if we 3 were all town though. Also, yeah. While I appreciate players pitting themselves against each other in glorious gladiator combat as IaI says, I'm more interested in catching scum, so please don't forget to question other people before placing your vote, it's the conclusion of a long game. And many players have put their work into this. No pressure.

[Remembrance]

*This is for in case I get lynched. I have some plans because of Father's day so I won't be here to give my final thoughts etc.

[Remembrance]

Oh well.

I think Buldermar is the last scum

personally. He forgets way to much and it sticks to what he imagines himself to be as scum, someone who doesn't say anything that is necessarily scummy, yet somehow votes wrong when he should vote right. Plausible deniability is a scum tell and Buldermar has excelled at it. He has not pressured people, but has taken on a more fatalistic stance, he reneged on a read that he seemed absolutely sure of. And did it using someone he himself thought was scum along with most of the town and for good reason. And then reveals he had no special reason for the read and has given one of the worst reasons for thinking someone is town I've seen in a while. There is so much there, but he never looks in the right places or concentrates on the right things.

His two hunting contributions for scum hunting are things that someone had pointed out or said before. It doesn't feel right.

Part of me wanted to keep Se-Asians here and just ask him to vote Buldermar and then get IaI to vote Buldermar with me. But I couldn't do that because he just wasn't active enough. So this is it.

So you decide to hammer IAI and in the very same post point out that you think I am the last scum. Then you present reasons for thinking I'm scum that could have been presented a long time ago, but wasn't. Why?

You weren't here. So I couldn't question you nor could I pressure you. I voted IaI because Mollie said she wouldn't vote you and I just force replaced the necessary 3rd vote. I wrote this already.

[Remembrance]

You know my policy on this already Buldermar. I don't pressure people that don't have the time.

[I Am Innocent]

I will continue to be checking in to see if Mollie makes an appearance. Deadline now in less than 2 hrs.

I could hammer bulder, and while I am totally fine with that as he is my #2 target, it feels very cheap as Mollie's intent was to unvote him in her last post. So I very much would like it if she came in and gave her thoughts and picked which of the 3 she thinks should be lynched.