Mini 1438: Gonzo Mafia (Scum Win)

[I Am Innocent]

that isn't an answer

in what post did wisdom troll you?

give a good answer and I will back off

Nah your vote is good. Keep in me.

This sounds like something scum would say, trying to sound townie. In actuality, town would realize that a vote on themselves is one less vote to pressure mafia, and would be best off trying to prove their towniness. Me no likey, so me:

vote: SE-Asians

(will be unavailable for most of the day due to the Easter holiday)

[I Am Innocent]

~20 pages to read, but by the looks of this page, someone is recommending a mass claim? Please tell me I'm missing something...

Off to catch up.

[I Am Innocent]

Not really a mass claim

A day-by-day claim, so to speak

What post/posts is/are this plan at? Doubt I will catch all the way up tonight, but would like to see it tonight.

[I Am Innocent]

^bad post

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VOTE: Bacde

^bad post

******

IAI could certainly bus you; his reasoning is weak and could work perfectly well as a quick towncred grab for your scumflip.

So my genius move is to take a 2/2/1 vote and move my partner to the front of the pack and L-4 for D1 towncred? Really????

Also Human, why no read of Bacde by 142? You have a read of me on one post, but nothing on Bacde. I thought his 129 & 131 were telling, but yet he is not in your reads, hmmmm...

******

My answer already answered in my previous previous previous post. Why do you ask?

Here. D6 Innocent Child. Do wish what you like.

With the VT claim, and now this, why are we up to 25 pages??? This should be lynched with fire by now?!?!?

Good place to stop.

[I Am Innocent]

IDEA:
day 1 cops, claim today
if doctor(s) exist, they will protect you

day 2 cops, claim tomorrow
if doctor(s) exist, they will protect you

that way
every day is a WIFOM struggle for scum
and every doc+cop combo we have is broken, so

don't like it

how about, nobody claims today, day 1 cop claims tomorrow, and day 2 cop claims D3 etc.

Say 10 town, 3 scum. Even with a mislynch, the chance of hitting a cop with no docs would be 1 outta 9....I'll take those chances and force the scum to play cat and mouse rather than give them free reight on 8 players...

Vote Count:

SE-Asians (L-4): I Am Innocent, Bacde, Human Destroyer
buldermar (L-6): SE-Asians
borkjerfkin (L-6): pirate mollie
Remembrance (L-6): Wisdom
Bacde (L-6): Nachomamma8

Not Voting: Remembrance, mantisdreamz, AngelusW, kuror0, borkjerfkin, buldermar

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.
Deadline is April 13th at 9:30 PM EST

[I Am Innocent]

it's spelled reign u moron!!!

[I Am Innocent]

I did explain my slight-town read on SE-Asians.

Basically, when he pressures you and is serious, you can't help but laugh. Lincolm said he felt it was funny when he pressures people (laughter is a danger response, to show you're not worried about a bad thing happening to you),

I'm town

, and I felt it was humorous too, but scum tend to be more serious when accused.

underlined part is not needed, feels forced that it was added.

Nope, I was stuck on the page you asked all those questions on, then I read the scum slip, which I'm wondering about.

Wondering if it is time to bus?

Nah sorry. I like to fake claim. My role in N5 so I like to survive. It doesn't matter.

VT to IC to N5 claim. Needs to die with fire.....TODAY!

You agree that you're scum, or that you know he likes to fake claim?

SE-Asians: Which one of your hydra heads, likes to not throw in the towel at l-2. Don't like this roll over stuff.

Yeah liking a Remebrance/SE Asian team more and more

@Lincolm is this your first time in a diffusion game?

Trying to give a scumbuddy an alibi?

oh cool i don't have to pretend to care today

VOTE: Se-asians

Now Human, this is a bus vote right here! Out of nowhere, pops in and puts his buddy at L-1.

SE-Asians is NOT scum, and that wasn't a scumslip. Everyone should unvote him instantly.

???? Can't wait to hear this.

UNVOTE: SE-Asians

Cold feet? Why the unvote, Mollie just took him off L-1???

There's scum in {Bacde, IaI and bork}. Definetely.
HD's push, although wrong, is townish.
mollie and Remembrance probtown.

Lincolm's VT claim was not serious. Why would anyone claim at that point? It was his way of showing his frustration regarding the argument with HD. It is not a scumslip and whoever continues to push this is scum trying to exploit the fact that Lincolm's language barrier makes him look scummier than he is.

yeah your not a very good player are you?

No it doesn't look like a slip. It IS obviously a sarcastic way to show his frustration.

Not how I read it either... (Bacde's 225 is exactly how I feel too)

VOTE: Wisdom I think he did actually scum slip.

I just checked the only scum QT I've ever joined and there was no set up information in the quick topic. Furthermore, when I got my role Pm, there was no information on the set up. He's probably just trying to look town.

So it is a scum slip and yet you vote someone else. Can we lynch this with fire today too? Please mod????

(And yeah, I read your next post, I still am not buying it)

HD is town by the way.

Bacde is town too.

No.

Yes

This is literally "Lynch SE-Asians and Remembrance in any order" now.

TAKE YOUR PICK FOLKS

Speak it brother!!!

That's acceptable; if you wanna argue that he's scum for other reasons I am willing to listen. But the claim wasn't a slip.

My greatest fear is that you're town. (Well actually it is that my penis will fall off, but this is a close second)

Don't make me vote you.
Remembrance is town.

srsly, if you end up being town, i will commission the scummies to add a worst townie award.

Next 5 pages coming...

Vote Count:

SE-Asians (L-4): I Am Innocent, Bacde, Human Destroyer
buldermar (L-6): SE-Asians
borkjerfkin (L-6): pirate mollie
Bacde (L-6): Nachomamma8

Not Voting: Remembrance, mantisdreamz, AngelusW, kuror0, borkjerfkin, buldermar, Wisdom

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.
Deadline is April 13th at 9:30 PM EST

[I Am Innocent]

UNVOTE:

Why did you unvote here?

Here, you will like my claim. VT. You can easily mislynch me.

This is an open setup with no Vanilla Townies.

10/10

VOTE: SE-Asians

VOTE: buldermar

Are you friggin kidding me? Well at least one good thing came out of your poor play, ur obv town. No scum would be this blatant.

Oh god... Why I know you Wis... Why I know you also Mollie... I wish both of you're scum together so I get lynched in that time.

Town don't know who is town and who is scum. Even I help, that isn't going to be a "help" because of their mindset.

Rem, Mollie, and Wisdom are town like a fuck. If they are scum, they wouldn't attempt to starting other discussion.

Well, in this condition scum have 1 free mislynch, but I think Bork's reaction is neutral reaction that can be alignment as town or scum.

Nacho in V/LA for 2 days. I still remember he posted it in Amurika.
Kuroro have activity like this because I'm in one game with him.

Reporting in, over.

Not one scum read, nice. Lynch with FIRE!!!

oh cool i don't have to pretend to care today

VOTE: Se-asians

^^ town

Don't be so sure.

Bulder is town too. 5 town down, 5 to go. this one's easy.

Hey Sora. Are you scum?

What the....??? We should really hydra together some time so i can help u with ur game...

Rem, Mollie, and Wisdom are town like a fuck. If they are scum, they wouldn't attempt to starting other discussion.

I think this could be important if SE-Asians somehow magically flips town.

Yep, see Rem.

Because he didn't know it will be Diffusion?

In that case he could just replace out.

yeah we're past this but thanks

Great, whose scum then?

Can you link me to a game of his in which he does something as retarded? That could make me change my mind.

Sigworthy

Hydra players:

1. SoraAdvent http://forum.mafiascum.net/memberlist.p ... le&u=19107
2: Thenewearth http://forum.mafiascum.net/memberlist.p ... le&u=20830
3. Lincolm. http://forum.mafiascum.net/memberlist.p ... le&u=20122

gung ho on helping out this slot, aren't u???

You are now speculating to justify things. No, Lincolm is not the kind not to read a pm or not to read QTs. Except if you have examples showing he doesn't usually read pms or qts.

taking back my town read on u

Ok what dafuq happened...

Uhm... Erm... Sorry for that outburst guys, I didn't even...

Anyways...

Is it just me or is bul sheeping HD to lynch us?
Not liking that at all.

Remembrance... I'm just not feeling this guy's town play yet.
Call it gut or meta or whatever you want but anyways...

Wisdom I'm not too keen on reading... But I'd say null-town for now

HD is totally town because gut feeling and town vibes (Totally not relieving pressure off by calling you town )
Or I could be wrong... Maybe scum trying to take advantage of our frustrations.

Everyone else needs to post more.

Again... Sorry for that outburst.

-Philippines

WHERE ARE THE SCUM READS?!?!?!

tne, you're currently voting HD. Do you agree with the vote, or do you wanna vote someone else?

coaching a teammate to start another wagon, any wagon?

Except that's how tne is as town too.

getting worse...

Wait there's a vote on HD?

No no no.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: buldermar

Call it wrong or something but there's something that strikes me as odd about joining the wagon
-Phil

BURN BABY BURN!!! (joined wisdom on the only other wagon....)

Need to wake up in 7 hrs, so this will have to continue during lunch tomorrow. Thru page 15 now

[I Am Innocent]

Read update:

Wisdom: Prob town. (Yeah, I know I'm late to the party).

Going to have look through ALL OF THIS ****ING ****. To find the reads from everyone else.

17 pages in and you have 1 read?

VOTE: Mantis

Cool. I'll do that then.

Lurker voting, scum tell you know that right? Why are you afraid to ruffle anyone's feathers?

^bad post

ha! this one I agreed with

@Remembrance: what about what you just did is scumhunting?

Scumcoaching for the win?

Still feeling a SEAsian/Remembrance/Bork team here.

#2 negative reinforcement. Don't control this game Wisdom. I've realized, I've been so busy reading I haven't been able to do my own thing since page 9. I do this kinda stuff.

I actually think I like this post.

Is this for real? Oh wait, your scumbuddies

Nacho, ur reads suck.

lolwut
Didn't you say he's town a few posts ago? Why do you sheep Nacho now? And why'd you unvote Mantis?

^good post

Thru page 24. Lunch over, so will need 1 more push

[I Am Innocent]

Webinar at lunch today, will have to finish catching up tonight.

I believe through my skim through that the claim was for a N1 role or not? I do not have a N1 role.

My thoughts on SE prior to the finishing catch up:
1) He lied twice and then said his role was for N5. He is the best best for a lynch
2) Not going to lie, I did not look at the setup til later. Thought it curious when I had a Night X .. role. So I could see town not knowing initially that scum knew there were 10 town divvied up by Y cops and 10 - Y doctors.
3) From #2, had SE Asians come out after the claim saying, oh, it was a joke, I hadn't realized the setup and didn't know my fake claims were ridiculous, I would have bought it based on my own lack of checking the setup. But he did not. He said it was to have him last longer in the game by not being a NK (VT, IC not til N6, etc)

So Wisdom, you can go screw yourself. I think the fact we have a player who has lied multiple times, refused to call players scummy for a long time, and whose "role" is conveniently not until the last night, this is the best play for a lynch D1. If I'm wrong, we get valuable information for the cops tonight. If I'm right, we get valuable information for the cops tonight + 1 dead EC. Can you really say a better D1 target than SE Asians that help the cops tonight, and hurt the town the least (claimed N5 power) if we are wrong?

Like I said, hope to be fully caught up by tonight. Wisdom, vote me now. You know nothing I say is going to change your mind, so stop playing the "thoughtful town role" by waiting for me to catchup...

[I Am Innocent]

#1 should say....best "bet" for a lynch tonight

[I Am Innocent]

Well just have doctors claim before cops

If no doctors claim don't have the cops claim

I actually like this Idea.

Worst case scenario is...

Doc claim --> Cop claim --> Scum choose to kill someone else --> Cop investigates town --> Scum kill N2 cop.

Or

We lynch N2 cop

What?

Oh... And scum successfully counterclaims the real cops/doctors

This sounds like scum thinking to me.

^bad post

Why was my Bacde vote a "bad post"?

Oh, so you don't like people just writing bad post and not elaborating, huh? Then stop that crap yourself.

I'll excuse you because you're stopping there, but if you continue pushing that the VT claim is a scumtell after you've read everything I'll vote you.

Still pushing it.

With the VT claim, and now this, why are we up to 25 pages??? This should be lynched with fire by now?!?!?

Good place to stop.

And again... Sorry for "our" little frustration fest.

So you admit it was a "joint effort"?

I don't get this. Would scum be more motivated to get this plan rolling than town?

This is actually what I am trying to figure out.

This is bad because if doctors claim, doctors will always be the target, meaning that our doctors effectively becomes useless.

This is not a bad thing. They are useless after one day anyway.

So you're willing to trade no chance of a succesful protection for a potentially guaranteed investigation?

I would. With odd numbers to start, it takes two successful protections to give us another lynch (in other words, not very likely!)

Getting long, will post this now.

[I Am Innocent]

Nah I think the doc should claim first.

There's no guarantee that the cop will not die if only the cop claims.
So Doc should claim first

At least scum gets WIFOM panic.

Probably too late now, but if Asians is wanting it, it gets me thinking it must be bad.

I finally realized why.

Outted docs on early days give scum a smaller pool to shoot for cops in later days. Unoutted docs keep the pool of unknowns larger.

[In my best wisdom voice]Next person that defends this slot gets my vote![/In my best wisdom voice]

pedit: I really hope you're town so I can feed you loads of humble pie after this game ends

[I Am Innocent]

Just realized that post by Asians that I quoted was #666, if that ain't a sign, I don't know what is!

SE-Asians (L-3): I Am Innocent, Bacde, Human Destroyer, kuror0
I Am Innocent (L-6): Wisdom
buldermar (L-6): SE-Asians
borkjerfkin (L-6): pirate mollie
Bacde (L-6): Nachomamma8, mantisdreamz

Not Voting: Remembrance, AngelusW, borkjerfkin, buldermar

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.
Deadline is April 13th at 9:30 PM EST

[I Am Innocent]

Btw if we're going through with this... Do we still random lynch or

just no lynch everytime

?

Holy friggin crap? Wisdom still think this slot is town????

[I Am Innocent]

Why did you unvote here?

Because Wisdom actually made a decent point about the fakeclaim and I wanted to look into Mollie some more.

Can you quote me the post with the decent point? (I put this in a separate post since I know you don't like post by post analysis...)

[I Am Innocent]

Borky, because he's competent, and just because he has read me as town does not mean Scum won't point out townie things town do. I've done it.

Can you elaborate on this?

Why is not having scum reads indicative of a scum alignment? To me it's mostly quite the opposite. As scum you really want to avoid getting locked into too many town reads early on, don't you?

Scared to ruffle other's feathers is what I usually see from most timid scum.

Question: You think I'm scum right? But you just pointed this out. Are you ignoring evidence?

How about you stop trying to be cute and just say what it is you think I am ignoring.

I will admit that his "I want to last till D5" is a bit weird given this context

Has there been anything worse in this game to go on then? If so, please list it. If not, why do you refuse to vote Asians when you seem to think this slot may be scum and this is the scummiest thing to go on?

and hurt the town the least (claimed N5 power)

You should not underestimate N5 PRs. They might turn out to be as helpful for the town as the N1 ones. In the last Diffusion game most PRs were N5 PRs and they managed to form a auto-town win plan on D4 that utilized them. So don't go around saying that N5 PRs are useless and it's better if we lynch them than others.

Wait, I thought earlier you said you didn't want to vote scum Remembrance because he claimed a N1 PR. Now you are saying later PRs are just as effective....which is it:

As to why I unvoted you; I'm not lynching a N1 PR.

Yes I did put an effort to save him when people were using the claim to peg him as scum. But other than that, it's not like I want to protect him from a lynch.

Just 50 posts earlier:

Nobody will be wondering about the VT claim, it was obvious sarcasm/frustration. Whoever still doubts that can die.

also kuror I have been one of the top posters and certainly the biggest **** stirrer how do you not have a read on my slot

To be fair, I am having trouble reading you too.

This just in: I'm probably going to choke AngelusW to death next time I see him.

Get Thor please. The original reason I signed up.

VOTE: I am Innocent

Makes you feel like more of man now, doesn't it?

Wisdom does not think that slot is town.

Then vote it.

AND......ALL.....CAUGHT....UP!!!!!!!

[I Am Innocent]

Stealing from the Mod:

Lean Town 1. Nachomamma8
Scum 2. Remembrance
Lean Town 3. mantisdreamz
Town 4. buldermar
Lean Scum 5. borkjerfkin
Lean Town 6. pirate mollie
Town 7. I Am Innocent
Null 8. AngelusW
Scum 9. SE-Asians (Lincolm + SorasAdvent + thenewearth Hydra)
Lean Town 10. Bacde
Town 11. Human Destroyer
Lean Town 12. Wisdom
Lean Town 13. kuror0

[I Am Innocent]

No, you're a better lynch.

Please answer the questions in the 4th section down in post 329

(actually please answer all my questions as they are all important)

[I Am Innocent]

Oh for future days, I suggest only cops claiming as per my response to scum Asians liking the docs claiming. Keeps the pool of unknowns larger for the scum.

What do you say that mr wise one?

[I Am Innocent]

Do you realise we just claim PR? What cops are you talking about?

I mean I like Nacho's original suggestion.

My thoughts are as follows:

Cops investigate, and then claim next day. No discussion about that.

Docs have two jobs, try to successfully protect, and stay silent. Why stay silent, because I'd rather have a N2 Doc get killed N3 than a N3 or N4 or N5 cop. And if a N2 Doc outs himself D2, that ain't gonna happen.

Going forward, Docs don't claim.

SE-Asians (L-4): I Am Innocent, Human Destroyer, kuror0
buldermar (L-6): SE-Asians
borkjerfkin (L-6): pirate mollie
Wisdom (L-3): Nachomamma8, buldermar, borkjerfkin, Fate
Fate (L-4): mantisdreamz, Remembrance, Wisdom

Not Voting: AngelusW

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.
Deadline is April 13th at 9:30 PM EST

[I Am Innocent]

I'll be frank. I think Se-Asian's is mislynch bait. Everyone is okay with voting him and I am tempted to as well. But that means scum are okay with his lynch too. EVERYONE is okay with Se. Ergo, scum are okay with his lynch. Scum do not play that way because it's intentionally suspicious, the arguing about and wanting to have the Doc's claim was not something scum would do because it's idiotic and suspicious to do so. Yes, I am going for the "too incompetent to be scum" argument. Why vote Buldermar? Why discuss it amongst the hydras if he wasn't town. Ultimately, he will probably be lynched anyway, I will follow tomorrow if he flips scum. But them's the breaks of having an opinion.

If everyone is okay with voting him, why is he still alive? I'll bet those "okay with voting him", but not, are probably his teammates looking for cred/chance to bus later if need be.

PS - from your post above "Everyone is okay with voting him

and I am tempted to as well

"

[I Am Innocent]

No one's outing themselves as a Doc. They're outing themselves as a PR.

So D2, what happens. Cops will say who they investigate, and by process of elimination that leaves who???? Docs maybe????

What do you think of switching to my plan on day 3, IaI?

I think we switch to it D2 personally. N1 Cops out their investigations D2, N1 docs will be outted due to process of elimination, damage done. But going forward, we still keep the pot as big as we can in my opinion by keeping N2+ Docs quiet.

[I Am Innocent]

Because he gave up and it pisses me off. That is the only reason I am tempted to.

I would never vote a town read of mine who gave up. I would push them to replace out.

Maybe my blinders are too tight, but I could see scum Remembrance getting ticked off at Scum Asians for giving up...

[I Am Innocent]

Yeah my issue right now w/ Wisdom:

You're really really really defending SE-Asians (

and I don't want to call it a chainsaw because I don't know SE-Asians' alignment and I don't really care for purposes of this post

) while being like "no it's totes ok to lynch SE-Asians" BUT FOR THE RIGHT REASONS

Like if you think he's scum (you've outright said you don't think he's town) you should not be directly impeding his lynch like this at every turn

The underline bothers me...it wasn't needed.

So D2, what happens. Cops will say who they investigate, and by process of elimination that leaves who???? Docs maybe????

That's fine, I see your point, but I mean ANY plan we come up with works better if more of the cops are early than the docs. That's simply the way this setup goes.

I feel Nacho's original plan works best under any setup personally (except for the one where all docs are N5, then it is the same). Keeping scum in the dark as much as possible is the best thing to do. No need for Docs to ever 1) claim they are docs and 2) when their night action is. We are essentially doing both if we continue this way!

Notice I am not voting him. and I have infact, advocated for him. I don't vote town reads.

I would never advocate for a town read either. Why are you?

I did that remark first I'm pretty sure. Even nacho quoted me. So now that IAI just resuscitates the topic and brings up things said before how is that specially towny?

This is all I see you mentioning of the plan, right:

I think the best thing we can't do is only make the cops claim, so all the available docs for that night if any, will know who to protect but scum will be in the dark if there is any doc for that night or not so they have to take even higher risks.

This implies benefits of THAT NIGHT for docs staying in the dark. I was talking about benefits of FUTURE NIGHTS for docs staying in the dark now (though I also agree with the benefits for THAT NIGHT as well).

For cops later in the game, it would be nice to have 2 or 3 docs (some or all of which already used their powers) unknown to scum so they don't know which is the real cop and which are hidden docs. Gives their chances of hitting that cop late game (who probably has decent odds of finding scum) to be much worse.

Rem is town also. About this plan, scums must immediately change tempo because of town's plan, so almost likely the N1 claims come from town because if I am scum, I like to discuss our fake claim first in our QT in the night. There is many things to discuss, like what night and how many docs and cops.

I really can't understand why this wagon keeps stalling...

Bork, Rememberance, Asians, I want cross reads of all of you. For Asians, I want those reads from all three of you.

The biggest one, he was planning about the plan, but he didn't use his own plan. There is no reason for scums doing this

What if Nacho realized that Bulder's plan is more exploitable(worse for the town) than his own?

I still feel Nacho's was the best. So scum Nacho was really putting himself out there by introducing a great plan that might not be countered....Not seeing it.

Allright, back from /LA.
Will discuss with partners over reads and such. yes,

I do have a slight scumread on IaI

and mentioned that Wisdom's passivity is something to be noted.

Before trying to catch up on the ten-odd pages I've missed,

I'll just say that scum is often far more passive

than town.

You think I've been passive? If not, please state your reasons.

N1 PR here too as well.

in your next post, please say if you're NOT an N1 PR as well to speed up the process

Objection. Can we kill his scum buddies instead?

@Se-Asians. I need to do an interview process for you I think. I'll just try to be on when you're on.

Good night folks.

Who are his scumbuddies again?

[I Am Innocent]

Bork, what are your current reads on Remembrance and Asians?

3. Se-Asians, I think is mislynch bait and I want to interview him when he gets on to demonstrate he is probably town. I have already taken a stance on this, but I will see what comes of it.

Interesting that you want to interview him, yet you already seem to know the outcome of the interview "demonstrate he is probably town". Is the interview for your benefit, or their benefit?

Then why did he follow bulder's and didn't insist on his own?

Fair question. I don't think Nacho realized how good his plan was.

Or am I misunderstanding the second part? I'm pretty much starved on scum reads. Hopefully I will be able to get something juicy from SE.

Why would this be your hope if 32 posts earlier you say "I want to interview him when he gets on to demonstrate he is probably town"?

The flaw of Nacho's plan is when the scums claim as cop. When you know this, this is safe play. The flaw of Buldermar's plan is when the there is only 1 town PR or no town PR. This is totally random.

Now you know it.

Not saying I agree with you, but why in the world would town-Asians tell scum what the safe play is? Who are you trying to help?

Additional question, when you're done answering that one. I asked a fairly difficult question to Bork, about his reads on Kuror, Bacde, and Nacho. He responded in two minutes, it takes me about 4 to make up stuff as scum. Does this affect your position on Bork in anyway?

Really?

I'll Iso him and think about it.

Requestiong Prod of IaI

Chill out, I'm here.

************

@Mollie, you feel so certain about Nacho that you are willing to risk a N1 power role? Who is your next best suspect?

@Rach/Wisdom/buld, everyone has N1 claimed and now chimed in, time to vote.

[I Am Innocent]

@Asians, what are your reads on Remembrance and Bork (want this from all 3 heads)?

[I Am Innocent]

Remembrance is town.

SE-Asians I still lean scum on for pretty much universally anti-town play. Other than that I can't tell wtf he's (they're?) even saying and tend not to read his posts.

Remembrance has defended SE Asians all game. Even when Remembrance hinted that he might vote for Asians, he said that thought along with everyone else suspecting Asians was the reason he thought Asians might be town. (nobody thought he was not town, which would mean scum were against Asians too)

Well Asians wagon has stalled, a few people claim town reads on Asians, yet Remembrance has not changed the town read that seemed to only be based on the number of people suspecting Asians.

It's possible I should be reading SE-Asians as null. I want to policy lynch the slot eventually I guess.

He claimed a N5 role....if he is not going to make it that far, what is the point of waiting?

@IaI, so are you lurking or what?

or what

@Rach/Wisdom/buld, everyone has N1 claimed and now chimed in, time to vote.

I'm more the hammering kind of guy.

So you have no preference between Fate, Wisdom, and Asians? (the correct answer is Asians by the way...)

If you find Nacho scummy for not doing much this game, why you find IAI town? Imo he has done A LOT less.

lol, if we disregard the plan, what has Nacho done this game? IaI has done some decent posts which have given me town vibes, and even if he still supports that SE-Asians is scum, he's certainly not pushing for his mislynch like Nacho did, first with Bacde and now with me.

I don't get this. I am certainly pushing for Asians lynch, though I hardly doubt it is a mislynch.

I'll Iso him and think about it.

Requestiong Prod of IaI

-post-

^Active lurking scum

That's what I was thinking.

HD/Rememberance, are you suggesting that I have my eyes constantly glued to the screen, and then as soon as I notice a prod of myself in 1275, that I SUBMIT a reply which quotes posts from 1124 to 1275....IN JUST ELEVEN MINUTES? No that would be silly,

borderline

scummy in fact, to suggest that.

Or maybe you could look through my iso and see when I typically post (night after the kids are asleep and lunch when I am free), and that I used my lunch hour that day to catch up on probably 8 pages or so (like I am doing right now).

Remembrance, when SE flips scum, you are next.

[I Am Innocent]

What changed your read?

I'm not as sure if Rem + IaI are scum + scum interactions.

So you take the guy defending Asians out of your scum reads instead of the guy who suspected Asians even before his ridiculous gambit?

Think man!

*though i'd like to hear from SE-Asians again

Putting him at L-3 might help....afterall, that unvote ain't doing squat.

@Fate, seriously, why don't you care that Mantis unvoted you after stating that there is scum on your wagon. For terrible reasons, I might add.
You gave an explanation, but Mantis bought it no questions asked. This doesn't make any sense to me.

i actually wasn't really paying attention to that comment. i don't really think there is.. unless SE Asians is scum. it's weird that they sort of disappeared

Kind of like sitting back and letting fate and wisdom duke it out for which IS gets mislynched, huh?

Not saying I agree with you, but why in the world would town-Asians tell scum what the safe play is? Who are you trying to help?

Everyone already know the scenario. It isn't a secret. I'm not the first who told it. In other side, I should told the flaws if I know it. Why I should keep the flaw as secret? I think you will answer, "You seek for towncreed".

There is a difference between saying a flaw in a plan, and saying "Scum should do X" The latter is guiding scum, which is.....wait for it.....scummy!

**********

So Remembrance/Asians, scum have day talk huh? That little Q&A wreaks of it. Let me reiterate, WHEN ASIANS FLIPS SCUM, YOU ARE NEXT REMEMBRANCE!!!

@Everyone else thoughts on this information?

"Did my plan work guys?"

geez I go to sleep and ya all post a novel while I am goone.

@ Nacho why am I so obv town to you?

BULDER STOP THAT my head now totally hurts...

We need to start consolidating our votes it looks like we got 4 days. (yes I know I have not voted yet...still working on my reads)

Your an obv town read for me too. Also agree on consolidating the votes. Mollie, move off Nacho. Buldermar, vote now and you can still hammer later. Probably.

Ummm, RachMarie, your not voting either...

Controlling for the language barrier, do you guys think these recent posts make him a town hydra or a scum hydra?

"Guys, I'm still waiting. Need to know if I'll get a scummy nom for this later or not..."

When did you introduce this interview publicly? Few days ago??? Enough time to work on your back and forth questions/answers in a scum qt perhaps?

okay what is this crap

this is not scum hunting this is a facsimile of scumhunting

nacho the main reason I am sus of you is cos your reads are opposite of mine. and your keeping your distance from me.

I need you to explain your town read on remembrance cos I am not seeing it

Well said.

Both Remembrance and SE-Asians look town to me from that exchange.
Remembrance shows genuine intent to try and read the slot with his questions, while SE-Asians also tries to answer the questions as effectively as he can, without giving out information that might be better kept hidden.

Town read of Wisdom....gone.

Sora and Tne Should have helped him out here, if he's really town or

even as scum

not liking the underlined

Well it is though

It's basically a terrible reason to join the wagon in order to get towncred when Asians should flip scum.

It's a bussing tell. Rem pulled one too.

Scum would have bussed after the VT & IC claims. My vote was before that. Try again buddy.

@IaI, take a position, give reads. I'm probably going to vote you today. Too much painting with a brush for my taste.

Mr Wishy Washy is asking for my reads. They are there, I've made plenty. I'm pretty sure two scum are you and Asians. I seem to recall from early in the game feeling that Bacde (now Fate) and Asians were on opposite sides, so it makes me happy to see these as 2 of the largest 3 wagons.

Who do you find as scum?

[I Am Innocent]

So Remembrance/Asians, scum have day talk huh? That little Q&A wreaks of it. Let me reiterate, WHEN ASIANS FLIPS SCUM, YOU ARE NEXT REMEMBRANCE!!!

what?
Do you realize SE-Asians is a hydra (which has a QT) or did you forget?

Yes I realize that. I'm also willing to bet scum have daytalk this game. I look forward to postgame to see if I'm right and if there is a little practice run in there between Remembrance and Asians on this "interview" that coincidentally took a few days to finally happen.

It's obvious that Remembrance did it to try to put his partner in a better light:

Post 1124 (before interview): "Se-Asians, I think is mislynch bait and I want to interview him when he gets on to demonstrate he is probably town."

Interviewing is about asking questions and getting answers. I would think answers would shape a read at this point. But Remembrance already seems to know what the answers are going to be...."to demonstrate he is probably town"

Post 1429 (finishing up interview): "@Everyone else thoughts on this information?"

Really seems to care about what others think of a top 3 vote getter at the moment... And in case that wasn't enough, he asks again!

Post 1435 "Controlling for the language barrier, do you guys think these recent posts make him a town hydra or a scum hydra?"

************

There has been talk about bussing, and I'm going to lay it out on the line for you right now. With 4-6 cops and no mafia power roles, mafia is not going to bus early unless a blatant mistake is made. Why, because those 4-6 cops mean 4-6 confirmed town to deal with, and the more cops you can get mislynched, the less cops/confirmed innocents you can kill at night.

There has been one blatant mistake this game, the VT, followed by IC claim, followed by the whoops, trying to stay alive for my N5 claim. No, "I didn't see the setup, and was joking". That would have been acceptable. But the excuse they gave is not.

If I was scum, I would have bussed early and then gotten off when I noticed the momentum dying down. Maybe even defended this player later.

Who is the one player who has done both. Remembrance.

SE Asians + Remembrance + ?

Doubt it is Wisdom and Fate.

You want to mislynch them, fine. But you want answers, and you want to hurt the team as little as possible by taking out a N5 power role, go for SE Asians. And then when he flips scum, don't forget to investigate Remembrance.

[I Am Innocent]

and I think I might be drunkposting

Built-in excuse for when I flip town?

Well it is though

It's basically a terrible reason to join the wagon in order to get towncred when Asians should flip scum.

It's a bussing tell. Rem pulled one too.

Scum would have bussed after the VT & IC claims. My vote was before that. Try again buddy.

^

this post

.

I am thinking of bc's push on se and how when nacho came in he picked up on that but I would have to look to see if he ever pointed the bus out.

so what do you think fate, IaI

Wow you are drunk posting. Care to clarify what you mean when you're sober?

Also D2 PRs need to out tomorrow BEFORE any results come in, for the record. Then I think the D3 switch to my plan would be optimal.

Nope, D2 Cops need to out tomorrow, D2 Docs stay hidden. NEED TO PROTECT FUTURE NIGHT COPS FROM FUTURE NIGHT KILLS.

Also think the lynchee today should post a list (scummiest to towniest) of order for the unknowns to go in to claim D2 cop or not. (If lynchee is scum, we ignore)

buld if it's wisdom or fate let's do fate. I agree with wisdom about mollie.

VOTE: Fate

Weren't you the guy talking a policy lynch of Asians eventually???

****

RachMarie, You Need To Vote!

Mantis, your vote is doing nothing on HD. Pick one of the top 3 please.

[I Am Innocent]

^ L-2

My feet are getting cold.

UNVOTE: Remembrance

L-3.

If you survive to day 2, what will you do?

Want more claims today, huh?

VOTE: IaI DUMB.

So why again? I want this on record.

[I Am Innocent]

Seriously Mollie, your level of patience, and your unwillingness to follow what others say is absolutely (awesome) difficult and complicates the game some. You could have sat on the read and waited until Night 2 group was out like it was suggested, but I get why you didn't do that.

More importantly, what do you think of Nacho? Given that Nacho pointed to Bacde initially? And since you already announced Fate was scum, can you tell me why you investigated him? Given your town read on Bacde?

As much as it pains me to say, I agree with Remembrance. The correct play is to sit on your scum investigation, let the day play out a little, and then release your results. Lots of lost information.

With that said, the things to do today in the correct order would have been:
1) the claimed N1 power roles release their results, or at least what power type they were (Cop, Doctor)
2) based on this distribution, the N2 cop dying, and now the N3 doctor, what is the best plan going forward (if all 3 had claimed doctor, and wisdom being a 4th doctor....would that change how we do things???)
3) then follow said plan

On average, you will have 2 power roles a night. With rach dying, that reduces the average to one for N2. If we have everybody claim, and one person claims a N2 power role, what do you think happens to them???

Based on the flips and Nacho/Mollies roles, my suggestion would have been for no one to claim. And if we did claim, to go with Nacho's original plan where just N2 cops claim. With 2 people already claiming no power role N2, and another person soft claiming towards having one, maybe we should finish, I don't know.

As for this game, I believe Fate is scum and will vote when discussion is done. My early notes say that Bacde and SE Asians were not on the same team, hence why I had a town read on that slot as SE Asians I believed strongly was scum. Needless to say, I no longer have confidence in that read.

Bork's replace out feels weird, and his L-1 vote from D1 still stands out as opportunistic.

HD reads mirrored my own D1 (SE Asians/remembrance), except I was also in his reads. Knowing my alignment and now guessing SE Asians is town, I'll say the last scum read is probably in HD/Remembrance. (basically, if remembrance flips town, then HD was likely tunneling hard on 3 townies while defending fate's slot)

Buldermar, Mollie, Kuror, Nacho all have felt town. SE Asians for the Fate scum investigation is also likely town. Mantis I would need to reread, but I remember thinking she was town.

[I Am Innocent]

With that said, Remembrance, claim please.

[I Am Innocent]

PS - everyone, iso HD and check out the interaction/thoughts on bacde/fate's slot

[I Am Innocent]

I still say IaI is the third scum, I don't give a shit how town he can make himself seem, he was awkward with his first post, and he is the type to sweet talk you out of your life insurance policy I mean really, 2 MISLYNCHES DUE TO FAKE COP CLAIMS IN POSH!!!!

Yeah, that was pretty impressive, wasn't it???

Sorry for being scant this weekend, 12 add'l family members in town (and in my house!) for my daughter's baptism yesterday. They are all gone and life is back to normal!

First thing's first, what are we doing?

1) Follow Nacho's plan (only N2 cops claim)
2) Follow Bulder's plan (all N2 powers claim a power, but don't say what role it is)
3) No claiming at all

Already explained how #2 is likely to out 1 role on avg, not good for us. Still not sure if #1 or #3 is better.

We have:
2 claimed doctors + 1 dead doctor
1 claimed cop + 1 dead cop

Assuming all are legit, we have 1-3 docs left and 2-4 cops left.

If we do #1 above and with no confirmed town (mollie would be close if/when Fate flips scum), I think the doc protects the/a N2 cop. I would trade an almost confirmed townie for another investigation result on someone that survives (this would assume the cop is not stupid enough to investigate mollie in this situation).

If we do #3, I still think the optimal move for a doctor is to protect someone outside of {mollie, nacho, remembrance}. Scum will want the remaining cops killed, esp with such a big pool of cops left (2-4 assuming mollie is legit).

Under #1 above where there are no N2 cops, I think the doctor acts similarly to #3 above.

[I Am Innocent]

Interesting, because I am a N2 cop too (3 of them???)

As for investigating me, that would kill 2 birds with 1 stone N2 as it would allow 2 investigations to be gone if there is no N2 doc and juror is legit by targeting me for the kill.

Lets finish the claims tho, and then my suggestion would be for mollie to split the list of remaining players excl fate evenly between the cops so no duplicate investigation could happen. Each cop then chooses someone from his list to investigate.

Sound good?

[I Am Innocent]

Stupid auto correct....juror above should read kuror

[I Am Innocent]

If a cop investigates the NK target, that is 1 wasted investigation. If that NK target happens to be a cop, then the dead cop never uses an investigation either, making the total 2 wasted investigations.

If we are both indeed cops, and neither investigates the other, we are guaranteed to confirm at least one player by the start of D3.

[I Am Innocent]

why the **** is fate not lynched already

Lets finish the claims tho, and then my suggestion would be for mollie to split the list of remaining players excl fate evenly between the cops so no duplicate investigation could happen. Each cop then chooses someone from his list to investigate.

.

[I Am Innocent]

1. Nachomamma8
2. Remembrance
3. mantisdreamz
4. Rubicon (Replaced buldermar)
5. borkjerfkin
6. pirate mollie
7. I Am Innocent
9. SE-Asians (Lincolm + SorasAdvent + thenewearth Hydra)
11. Human Destroyer
13. kuror0

Here is the list from the first post for help purposes. Tho mod has screwed up 4 & 5 apparently...

[I Am Innocent]

Who hasn't claimed yet if they are a N2 cop or not?

[I Am Innocent]

Buldermar, you a N2 cop? SE Asians, are you a N2 cop?

Based on hints these 2 both made earlier, I'm guessing no, so Mollie, get that list ready. I'll even get it started for you...

IAI pool: Kuror, ? ? ? ?

Kuror pool: IAI ? ? ? ?

[I Am Innocent]

nah, the pool crap is good. as long as pirate does a good job putting some scummy players tied to fate in each pool, we avoid accidently investigating the same player. I want a confirmed player D3!

[I Am Innocent]

Pff I did my pool before it was an idea. Leaving IaI aside I will either investigate Nacho, Mantis or Remem. So IaI can choose freely among the other players.

For completeness, feel free to add Mollie to your list.

Though if/when fate flips scum, mollie, you, and myself would be bad investigation targets in my opinion.

I will investigate one of the remaining 4 players {Asians, Bork's replacement, HD, bulder}

vote Fate

[I Am Innocent]

My suggestion for today:

First - Everyone gives their top 2 suspects (want this on record before I disclose my result)
Second - I disclose my result
Third - We talk about the plan going forward

Since I have inside information, I will give my top 2 suspects list last.

[I Am Innocent]

No more claims yet please.

[I Am Innocent]

Mollie, get back in here! U and Thor were the main 2 reasons I signed up for this game.

Mollie/Asians, once u both give ur top 2 suspects, I will release my results and give my top 2

[I Am Innocent]

Yeah I can see things haven't got that far.

Anyways this is some stuff that is on the top on my head:

-IaI first post of the day was really towny but his D1 play was awful imo. So I still maintain a little the scum read on him.
-I have Mantis as scum.
-I already said this but Nacho's plan proposal and discussion is totally a null tell. That aside I do have him as town.
-I hate that Remember sometimes contradicts himself or do weird stuff. Yet something about him screams town real hard to me.

I will aim one of those 4 for my night investigation(tonight).

/off to sleep.

Why did you investigate the town player over the scum player? And why would you include someone in your list who "screams town real hard" to you?

[I Am Innocent]

At kuror0, what do you think about the following unvote that basically killed the Fate wagon D1? Still scream town real hard for you? If not, did you miss this unvote D1 when developing your Remembrance D2 read?

^ L-2

My feet are getting cold.

UNVOTE: Remembrance

L-3.

If you survive to day 2, what will you do?

SE-Asians (L-4): I Am Innocent, Human Destroyer, kuror0
Wisdom (L-4): Fate, Nachomamma8, pirate mollie
Fate (L-2): Remembrance, SE-Asians, Wisdom, borkjerfkin, buldermar
Human Destroyer (L-6): mantisdreamz

Not Voting: RachMarie

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.
Deadline is April 13th at 9:30 PM EST

[I Am Innocent]

Here is a little tidbit from end of D2 that has got me concerned (chronologically):

Yeah I can see things haven't got that far.

Anyways this is some stuff that is on the top on my head:

-IaI first post of the day was really towny but his D1 play was awful imo. So I still maintain a little the scum read on him.
-I have Mantis as scum.
-I already said this but Nacho's plan proposal and discussion is totally a null tell. That aside I do have him as town.
-I hate that Remember sometimes contradicts himself or do weird stuff. Yet something about him screams town real hard to me.

I will aim one of those 4 for my night investigation(tonight).

/off to sleep.

Interesting, because I am a N2 cop too (3 of them???)

As for investigating me, that would kill 2 birds with 1 stone N2 as it would allow 2 investigations to be gone if there is no N2 doc and juror is legit by targeting me for the kill.

Lets finish the claims tho, and then my suggestion would be for mollie to split the list of remaining players excl fate evenly between the cops so no duplicate investigation could happen. Each cop then chooses someone from his list to investigate.

Sound good?

Buldermar, you a N2 cop? SE Asians, are you a N2 cop?

Based on hints these 2 both made earlier, I'm guessing no, so Mollie, get that list ready. I'll even get it started for you...

IAI pool: Kuror, ? ? ? ?

Kuror pool: IAI ? ? ? ?

don't investigate each other and don't do the pool ****

nah, the pool crap is good. as long as pirate does a good job putting some scummy players tied to fate in each pool, we avoid accidently investigating the same player. I want a confirmed player D3!

don't investigate each other
otherwise, we can have a... INVESTIGATIONS DRAFT

1. Nachomamma8
2. Remembrance
3. mantisdreamz
4. buldermar
5. Rubicon
6. pirate mollie
9. SE-Asians (Lincolm + SorasAdvent + thenewearth Hydra)
11. Human Destroyer

(or you could just investigate one of the first 4, kuror0 one of the second 4)

Pff I did my pool before it was an idea. Leaving IaI aside I will either investigate Nacho, Mantis or Remem. So IaI can choose freely among the other players.

I think SE are not a N2 cop so the only one missing to claim is HD.

[I Am Innocent]

I got a town result last night. I will say who once SE Asians checks in with a Top 2. I am now starting to wonder if Kuror is scum and chose the last scum as part of his list. This would ensure 1) that I did not investigate scum N2 2) they had free reign to kill anyone not named me or Kuror as the N2 docs would likely be protecting us (sorry pirate, this was the right move)

I suggested mollie divide the pool between us.

Nacho suggested randomly dividing the list (looking back at that post, Nacho suggested I take ALL THREE of the players Kuror originally wanted)

Nacho also suggested a draft as a 3rd option

Kuror rejected all three of these. Then the target he picks dies over either cop. Mollie/Buldie, remember what I did on Posh N2/D3....as the "cop", I also "targeted" the NK. Keeps the pool of confirmed town smaller....which would be needed as I would be confirming a town D3.

I'll have more to say why I have these suspicions after I release my investigation result.

Needless to say, my Top 2 are Kuror and Remembrance

[I Am Innocent]

Partially due to the jumping off of the Fate wagon at L-2, and partially due to the fact that Kuror had a scum read on Mantis, but Remembrance "screams town real hard" to him. Not the kind of player I'd expect a cop to consider investigating.

[I Am Innocent]

2740 also has some good information. Who was the first person to do an iso analysis of Nacho? Remembrance...

What were the results of this D2 iso in Remembrance's words:

"He suspected me then sort of changed his mind, telling Kuror0 he thought all four of the people in his pool were town." (remembrance looks good in the end)

"I think ending the day suspecting, Rubicon, HD, and Bulder at death. But his larger pool was me, Rubi, HD, Kuror0 and Bulder." (interesting who is on the 2nd list but not the first)

"He had a special town read on Kuror0, but then suspected Kuror0 was a scum team with Rubicon. And also felt he lurked this day (Kuror0 can, and probably should explain why)." (interesting this this was the only bullet where he asked a living player to explain why....how would a living player know what Nacho was thinking.....or maybe this was just to give a teammate time to minimize suspicion on himself: he "can....explain why", how the heck do you know he can explain why???)

All other bullets were on just the other players.

[I Am Innocent]

Changed my mind, I am not going to wait for SE Asians.

I investigated Human Destroyer last night. He came back as town.

That means between Rach, myself, HD, and Mollie, I am very certain that is 4 cops. We have between 4 & 6 cops. With Rubicon, Mantis, and SE Asians all still unknown, it makes Kuror0 seem a little more suspicious. Factor in the investigation target coincidentally ended up getting NK'd, and he insisted on his target list, I am believing less and less that he is legit.

Unless you think the scum team is HD & myself, he is a legit cop. We need him to be protected, or at least seem possibly protected, hence why I think we are best off keeping Rubicon and Mantis from claiming today (unless they are a N3 cop, then they claim and we split the investigation targets again, this time with Mollie dividing the list).

Thoughts on the plan?

PS - Those who had HD in their top 2, would you please replace him with someone else?

vote kuror0

[I Am Innocent]

I don't know why you mentioned the possibility of an HD/IaI scum team though. It's a false dilemma. There are more possibilities

With no godfather, framer, bus driver, etc, the only way HD is scum is if I am his teammate or if I am lying about my investigation, and I assure you I am not. Doing that in this type of game would be moronic.

So what other possibilities are you talking about?

Obligatory question: Why did you investigate HD, over the others on your list?

Mostly because Bulder and Bork hopped on the fate wagon and sat on it, while HD was pushing the counterwagons (SE Asians/Wisdom). There was also some connections I saw with Nacho, which during my reread N2 I started to heavily suspect (which makes his death even more bizarre!)

I don't see SE Asians & Bacde/Fate on the same team, so I didn't even consider that one.

Can you remember me where I rejected those options? Because right now I have no memory of doing so.

Post 2708

Also look that on both nights the kill went to people that weren't claimed powers for that night. As for why Nacho over Mollie or Bulde is not something I know the answer. I targeted him because I really wanted to have a 100% accurate read of him and work whit his reads and let others fully trust him, if I wanted just to give a fake investigation I could have gone for Remember or Mantis instead of just putting a rope around my neck having him killed the same night I confirm him.

Yes but the thing that bothers me is scum knows how many cops there are, so you are saying that you are town, so they went for Nacho, who used his doc power already, over:

1) You
2) Me
3) At least one future cop (HD)

That is pretty gutsy play on there part, to leave this many investigations on the board by killing someone who didn't look all that clean.

If scum was nervous to take a shot at outted N2 cops due to possible N2 docs, they should have at least taken a shot at the unknown pool*** (HD, Mantis, Rubicon) knowing there was at least one cop in that group.

*** It is for this reason I could also see a Kuror/Mantis team....why wouldn't scum Kuror take out town Mantis (and a future unknown power role) and say he investigated her instead?

First I must say I didn't "insist" on having my list. I first did it to narrow the possible targets and to let you choose freely so we didn't collide on the same target. Then Nacho or someone else said we both should do it and came whit more ideas but I'm pretty sure I didn't reject any option. It just happened to be the one that most people agreed whit. Also you could have asked me to trade people if you were uncomfortable whit it or something.

No, you just said "Pff I did my pool before it was an idea. Leaving IaI aside I will either investigate Nacho, Mantis or Remem. So IaI can choose freely among the other players."

This doesn't sound like someone willing to change their philosophy.

Wish I would have pushed it harder. Back then though, I didn't suspect you. Wasn't til D3 when I saw the NK target and then your investigation target and then HD's claim + my result. That is too many cops/unknowns to be left alone over a Doc who used his power already.

[I Am Innocent]

I suggested mollie divide the pool between us

.

wrt the bold: what are you talking about here

See the 2 posts below:

Lets finish the claims tho, and then my suggestion would be for mollie to split the list of remaining players excl fate evenly between the cops so no duplicate investigation could happen. Each cop then chooses someone from his list to investigate.

Sound good?

Buldermar, you a N2 cop? SE Asians, are you a N2 cop?

Based on hints these 2 both made earlier, I'm guessing no, so Mollie, get that list ready. I'll even get it started for you...

IAI pool: Kuror, ? ? ? ?

Kuror pool: IAI ? ? ? ?

Partially due to the jumping off of the Fate wagon at L-2, and partially due to the fact that Kuror had a scum read on Mantis, but Remembrance "screams town real hard" to him. Not the kind of player I'd expect a cop to consider investigating.

what are you talking about here

My concerns with Kuror/Remembrance is 1) why would kuror even include someone on his list to investigate who "screams town real hard". That typically does not fit the criteria for me when I consider who I investigate. Yet including him on his list kept me from investigating him as he would not be in my list...

Then the read itself, since when Fate got to L-2 D1, as soon as he did and claimed N3 cop, Remembrance jumped off the wagon. Hindsight to me would make that slot no longer "scream town real hard" just for that move alone.

[I Am Innocent]

You are theorizing a lot about the NK choice and accusing me based on that theory. I can't really know why they choose Nacho over all the other possible targets. If you gonna accuse me of being scum use facts and not theory because it is impossible for me to defend against suppositions.

Fact: Nacho died, over myself (I know I'm a cop), you (you say your a cop), and HD (I now know to be a cop)
Fact: You "investigated" the NK target
Fact: You picked the pool of people you wanted in your list
Fact: Scum could fake claim cop

Theory: Put those four things together, and it doesn't look good for you.

Here is my list from scummiest to towniest:

Kuror
Remembrance
Mantis
Rubicon
Bulder
SE Asians
Mollie
IAI/HD

[I Am Innocent]

That's why I was acknowledging I was letting you out.

The list was the idea most people agreed so don't try to blame it on me like I imposed it over everyone else's opinion

. When I first made it, it was to avoid colliding targets whit you, not to try to create a system.

Please show me where people agreed with your idea over mine or the 2 nacho suggested.

************

@SE Asians, with me and HD both being scum like you suggest, that puts the real cops at {Rach, Mollie, and Kuror}. Why did we kill Nacho over the unknown list, which would have to include at least one more cop?

When you step back and think about it, the only benefit of killing Nacho is 1) if there were no future cops to worry about or 2) if someone had a list of 3 candidates to investigate, and one was his teammate, and Nacho was one of the other two.

We know #1 doesn't possibly work***, so it makes #2 seem more likely, no?

First, I investigated Nacho who I also had as a townread and you don't see it as a problem. Second, don't judge me for not following the same criteria you would. It was my night action and I used it as I thought it was the best for town. Third, you could have asked me for a trade on people if you were uncomfortable whit it, it is not like I opposed to any change.

Lastly, I have already said what I think about Remem, some single actions are scummy but his overall play looks town motivated. Also, because I have experience playing whit him is that I have this read. Again don't judge me for having a different Point of view, I develop my reads whit my own criteria not following yours or a canon.

No no no! You and I said we were cops. Since scum can fake claim cop, neither you nor I should have had any say on our list. So "you could have asked me for a trade on people if you were uncomfortable whit it, it is not like I opposed to any change" was not a pro-town option.

Randomly dividing the list like 3rd party Nacho said was a good idea, splitting it based on the most confirmed player we had at the time (Mollie) was an even better idea. A pick em draft would have been an interesting idea, still not sure it was the best.

But you said, nope, I'm keeping my 3 players.

Do you at least agree if there was 1 fake cop and 1 real cop on a certain day with 2 remaining scum alive, that the 1 fake cop would probably want his teammate on his list?

[I Am Innocent]

Forgot the asterisk part:

***Either HD is a future cop like he says, or IAI/HD are the scum team meaning we had at least 1 future cop since only Mollie, Rach, Kuror would have been outted at this point

[I Am Innocent]

Rubicon, claim time

[I Am Innocent]

@IaI, what happened to your plan? Why are you suddenly okay with Rubicon claiming?

My plan went out the window when Rubicon got to L-1. I was okay with him claiming because if he was a N3 doc (or scum claiming to be a N3 doc), then HD survives and we get one more confirmed town/caught scum.

Whit Rubi this is the 6th Cop claim.

Which means if either SE Asians or Mantis are a cop, they should claim. It would mean every living doc is confirmed town, plus we would have a pool of {kuror, mollie, myself, rubicon, and the last claimed cop} to choose from today.

IaI why you asked Rubi to claim if you are voting me and seems you are still convinced I'm scum? Or that was your hammer intent claim? Or you changed your mind about me?

See my response above.

**********

What does everyone think about the 2 remaining players claiming their power role

(

but not the night

) based on the logic above?

I am for it for the record...

[I Am Innocent]

@SE Asians:

1) Scum want a guaranteed kill every night. So Wisdom dying N1 (future power role) makes sense to me.

N2 tho, does not. Why kill a player that has already used his power over a list of the unconfirmed players, at least one of which had to be a cop? (I have already explained whether HD is scum or not, that there had to be at least 1 cop N3-N5.) The only explanation I can come up with is that kuror is scum and use the opportunity to "investigate" a loud player that got NK'd.

Dinner time, will post more thoughts later...

[I Am Innocent]

"4 Claimed docs, N1 Nacho , N3 Wisdom, N1 Rem, N2 Buldermar."

Whoops forgot about Wisdom. So forget the part I said about confirming all the living docs, that was wrong.

I also still think that if Mantis and/or SE Asians are a cop, they should claim at this point. Then we have guaranteed scum in the living claimed cops, as 7 total would be had.

Rubicon's claim, conveniently a cop (more valuable than a doctor) and the night (4 being as recent as possible) is shady as all get out.

[I Am Innocent]

Here are some of my thoughts from my top 2 suspect list request:

1) Everyone submitted prior to my investigation reveal except SE Asians. I did not bother to wait because I had a town read on SE Asians based on the Bacde flip.

2) Nobody included me on their list prior to the investigation reveal (SE Asians included me after my reveal).

3) 3 people included HD on their list prior to my reveal, SE Asians was a 4th after my reveal.

4) HD defended Bacde/Fate heavily D1, and if he is town (which I know to be true), I would expect at least 1 scum to include him as he'd be an easy target.

Here are the top suspect list, I believe in the order they were submitted:

kuror - Rubicon & Mantis
bulder - Rubicon & Kuror
HD - SE Asians & Remembrance
Remembrance - Rubicon & HD
Rubicon - Bulder & HD & Mantis
Mantis - HD & Kuror & Rubicon
Mollie - Rubicon & Kuror
IAI - Kuror & Remembrance
SE Asians - IAI & HD

The 3 people that suspected HD prior to my reveal were Remembrance, Rubicon, and Mantis

I am willing to bet at least 1 scum in here.

What is going to happen N3 is HD is going to die.

If Rubicon is town and alive going into N4, scum must kill him. I lean towards picking someone else to lynch today for this reason, esp since we have so many shady cats still alive.

My pool to lynch from in order of preference is Kuror > Remembrance/Mantis > Builder

I do not want to lynch from the other players at this point.

If someone does not have a vote out there currently, they really need to place one.

Unofficial Vote Count:

mantisdreamz (L-2): pirate mollie, kuror0, Human Destroyer
kuror0 (L-3): I Am Innocent, mantisdreamz
Rubicon (L-4): Remembrance
Buldermar (L-4): Rubicon

SE-Asians, buldermar

[I Am Innocent]

IAI, forgive me if you have already commented on it, but what do you think of mantis voting kuror when taking into consideration your own pool to lynch from in order of preference being kuror then mantis?

If Kuror ends up being scum, I am pretty sure the last scum will be in his pool of suspects to investigate from N2, which at this point is only Remembrance and Mantis. I still lean towards Remembrance, but Mantis has felt very scummy today.

Since that didn't answer your question, while I could see a Kuror/Mantis team, I feel it is more likely one of them are scum rather than both of them. (Either it is Kuror and Remembrance or Mantis and ?)

i should say that i'm more unsure of IAI & HD pulling a gambit... just since it pretty much reveals their team (so huge risk)
but, scum could easily just pick a town player in thread to clear, and still look legit. especially - if they know or plan to night kill that person soon anyway.

So scum IAI clears town HD AFTER HD claims N3 cop? Then tells all remaining players to not claim so town HD (now a known cop) has a chance to be protected as far as scum know (since you and Rubicon were unknown at that time, and only 1 could be a scum if I were scum too).

No, that is some serious straw grasping there. You want me dead BEFORE HD gets killed at night, because the paragraph above basically moves me strongly towards likely town since it is so pro-town.

Mantis trying to soft push a lynch on Nacho. O.o

The quote I did above and this one:

do you think the nacho lynch is a bad one today, due to the PR claim?

Gives me the vibes of: "Well I would like to lynch him but I am not sure, so anyone care to go first to encourage me?".

Mantis's recent stance towards me (because i don't think anyone will get behind a IAI lynch. I think he's steering... take a look at his last post. If he's scum, he's lining up the lynches very well...) reminded me of this.

unvote Kuror
Vote Mantis

[I Am Innocent]

I hate to say this, but I prefer myself as lynch today and next is IaI. I can't say why because this is based on WIFOM in my point of view. I think you all smart enough to realize the scenario (by the way, I think of it until day 5, so town can win with this tactic).

This feels like a soft cop claim, if it is, just come out and say it already and we lynch between me, you, mollie, and rubicon today, cause at least one of us (cough cough, Rubicon) would have to be lying.

unvote Mantis

until this is sorted out.

[I Am Innocent]

Darn it, include Kuror in that list of cops too. So if you are a cop, Rubicon or Kuror is surely scum.

[I Am Innocent]

I agree. And based on suspicion and votes received this day, mantis should go first.

[I Am Innocent]

Let me go through the reasoning:

HD claims cop
IaI says he got an innocent result on HD town.
IaI says we should not lynch our scum reads or get them to claim so that HD can be protected by the scum team's ignorance of whether there is a doc or not.
-> Changes his mind, asks Rubicon to claim.
-> Does not get angry at Mantis for the mistake.
-> Claims Mantis is trying to get him killed, before he becomes obv. town because of his protown play this day.
-> You don't think IaI would do this because it lowers his chances of mislynches. Given the player's reads at the time of his announcement.

Is this correct?

Problem statement: when I gave my reads, I was fully and completely aware of who he had in his pool of investigation. I could have just as easily changed my secondary scum read, I hadn't announced it yet, and could have moved it into the other pool of investigations. but I didn't care because that's not my primary objective. Further, he has used this very same reasoning to defend himself from suspicion. The job of the scum team is to not get lynched. He has tried to convinced people of this by arguing that it wouldn't make sense for him to do what he has done as scum. But that is what scum's primary objective is. With that said, I'm more worried about the leading, than the "I'd never do this as scum" bit. Town do that a lot too. Sometimes it even makes sense. I'm also worried because his play changed substantially from day 1 to now.

Couple of corrections/clarifications:
"IaI says we should not lynch our scum reads or get them to claim so that HD can be protected by the scum team's ignorance of whether there is a doc or not." I asked for 2 people to be left alone, the two that could have been a N3 doc.

"-> Changes his mind, asks Rubicon to claim." Rubicon was at L-1, which means nobody listened to me. Should I have kept quiet and let a possible N3 doc die? So don't friggin make it sound like I just flip flopped for no friggin reason. So either you have an agenda here or are just a moron.

"-> Does not get angry at Mantis for the mistake." How do you know I wasn't angry. I have been angry at a lot of things this game. Another thing that angered me that I didn't feel the need to be brought up was Bulder's claim D3....no reason to say he was a night 2 doc. Keeping quiet adds to the pool of hidden possible docs that could have protected HD N3. Instead the scum could just check Bulder off their list as a doctor who already used his power (assuming he is town)

If I'm not replaced by the deadline, I'll switch my vote to whichever wagon Remembrance tells me to.

Why Remembrance over Mollie?

*************

My biggest issue before and still is that if me, kuror, HD, and Rubicon are all cops (I know 2 of these to be true), why did scum kill nacho rather than take a shot of the unknowns that included HD and Rubicon? Esp when kuror and I were very likely to return two results (the only chance we wouldn't is if kuror investigated Nacho).

Which in my mind means that at least one of kuror and Rubicon are scum. If it is kuror, I still say Remembrance or Mantis are the teammate. Not sure if Rubicon is the scum who the last teammate is.

Oh, and to Mantis's comment earlier that scum don't like to draw attention as a fake-cop by claiming to investigate the NK target, Mollie, Bulder, would you like to refute that comment based on what I did in Posh as the fake cop N2? WIFOM mantis.

I am willing to hammer Mantis, will give anyone who wants to speak one last chance.

[I Am Innocent]

vote mantis

[I Am Innocent]

Whatever mantis, when HD flips tomorrow remember that 2 of the 3 players I tried to protect d3 included u and hd, and that I tried to keep hd alive thru n3. If u flip n5 doc, remember it was ur gaffe of claiming which night that screwed that up. Nothing I did, my actions were all pro town...

[I Am Innocent]

Changed my mind, I am not going to wait for SE Asians.

I investigated Human Destroyer last night. He came back as town.

That means between Rach, myself, HD, and Mollie, I am very certain that is 4 cops. We have between 4 & 6 cops. With Rubicon, Mantis, and SE Asians all still unknown, it makes Kuror0 seem a little more suspicious. Factor in the investigation target coincidentally ended up getting NK'd, and he insisted on his target list, I am believing less and less that he is legit.

Unless you think the scum team is HD & myself, he is a legit cop. We need him to be protected, or at least seem possibly protected, hence why I think we are best off keeping Rubicon and Mantis from claiming today (unless they are a N3 cop, then they claim and we split the investigation targets again, this time with Mollie dividing the list).

Thoughts on the plan?

PS - Those who had HD in their top 2, would you please replace him with someone else?

vote kuror0

Fact #1: HD was a N3 cop
Fact #2: Mantis was a doctor
Fact #3: Scum did not know as of this post what night Mantis was a doctor (1/3 chance it was N3 for all they knew)
Fact #4: If SE Asians and Rubicon are both town, they would not know which is the doc, so if it was Rubicon, there could have been 2 docs that had a chance of being a N3 doc to protect HD

Now to see who pushed Rubicon (forcing a claim) and who was against the strategy of keeping future docs hidden so HD had a better chance of not being the N3 kill.

I think it's a decent plan, but I'm not fully convinced about your mantis read.

I'm thinking about IaI's plan. I don't like it because it is protecting my scum read. And also protects Mantis from having to do much today. But it has good points too. I need to think it over and decide if the benefits outweigh the cost.

Nvm that's evident from your vote, I suppose.

I have similar worries to yours, Rem.

Changed my mind, I am not going to wait for SE Asians.

I investigated Human Destroyer last night. He came back as town.

That means between Rach, myself, HD, and Mollie, I am very certain that is 4 cops. We have between 4 & 6 cops. With Rubicon, Mantis, and SE Asians all still unknown, it makes Kuror0 seem a little more suspicious. Factor in the investigation target coincidentally ended up getting NK'd, and he insisted on his target list, I am believing less and less that he is legit.

Unless you think the scum team is HD & myself, he is a legit cop. We need him to be protected, or at least seem possibly protected, hence why I think we are best off keeping Rubicon and Mantis from claiming today (unless they are a N3 cop, then they claim and we split the investigation targets again, this time with Mollie dividing the list).

Thoughts on the plan?

PS - Those who had HD in their top 2, would you please replace him with someone else?

vote kuror0

okay you are making sense here

IaI, I will probably not entirely trust you until I see your town game.

I am good with rubicon, that was the plan at the start of the day and he has not done anything to make me change my mind.

VOTE: rubicon

Requesting prod of Mantisdreams

Thank you.

@IaI, if you're going to entertain the possibility of being a scum team with HD, then you might as well go full tilt with all the other ideas as well. You're the only player so far who has been insecure about their claim. It not only forwards your plan (which is fine), but it is also a defense of your innocence since such a team would be somewhat unlikely.

After thinking about it, I don't agree with your plan. Even at an instinctual level I feel that there is scum being protected if such a plan were to be accepted. this does not mean you're scum with these people (Mantis/Rubicon), but you are probably protecting scum. I don't think such a plan is advantageous to town.

@Everyone, what do you think of IaI's plan? A few have already answered, but some haven't, I'd like to hear their opinion about it. Is there some way that this would be an advantageous to town, even if the plan protected scum this game day? A flaw I recognized when thinking about it, is that if one of them is scum, they not only don't have to be pressured today, but can claim another day and this will assure their survival for that day as well. You might be buying scum not just today, but also tomorrow, which is a huge price to pay.

I'm conflicted though. Because I keep thinking of the benefits associated with getting another confirmed town or catching scum through investigation. Ugh. I don't know.
Rubicon or Mantis is scum:
1. They live today
2. Can claim tomorrow.
Scum might get two days to live.

Rubicon or Mantis is scum:

We let them live:
The wifom works,
HD clears someone of suspicion (or we get unlucky and he investigates someone who gets nked)

Best case scenario: have 3 very likely town (neither Bulder or Mollie gets nked), or a scum gets investigated. Am I missing anything?

VOTE: Rubicon

This was the 4th vote. Remembrance and Buldermar already had 2 votes on Rubicon, but never did remove their votes despite both considering the plan at points. I am pretty sure one of them are scum.

[I Am Innocent]

Whatever mantis, when HD flips tomorrow remember that 2 of the 3 players I tried to protect d3 included u and hd, and that I tried to keep hd alive thru n3.

If u flip n5 doc, remember it was ur gaffe of claiming which night that screwed that up. Nothing I did, my actions were all pro town

...

To me, this looks like you just want to wash your hands off this.

To me, it looks like scum Kuror doesn't want me looking too town.

or to quote Wisdom ^bad post

@Kuror, why would scum IAI clear cop HD D3? And try to keep him protected by keeping docs (at least one, Mantis) hidden about what night they have their power? Why not clear someone else on my list, like SE Asians (voted him all D1), Rubicon, or Buldermar?

There is no reason. That's why. Same reason I pushed Nacho's plan to keep docs hidden so we could get investigations from people like HD. I've only suggested strategies that help town!

Your list is gone. Except Remembrance. I still believe that you are a fake cop, and Remembrance is your teammate. The same guy that derailed the Fate wagon D1, yet you continue to say is super town, but you want him on your list. Yeah, I don't buy it.

If you flip scum, Rubicon, you better investigate Remembrance tomorrow.

vote Kuror

**************

@Remembrance, Mantis flips, HD flips, nothing more to say than those weak opening day 2 posts you made???

**************

@Mod, I am traveling out of country from Sat-Thurs, with Wifi and my smartphone in my hotel room as the only internet access. I will be very LA.

Fri-Mon (Memorial Day) I will be out of state, with some access to a computer. Also somewhat LA.

After that I should be active through the remainder of the game

[I Am Innocent]

^ L-2

My feet are getting cold.

UNVOTE: Remembrance

L-3.

If you survive to day 2, what will you do?

SE-Asians (L-4): I Am Innocent, Human Destroyer, kuror0
Wisdom (L-4): Fate, Nachomamma8, pirate mollie
Fate (L-2): Remembrance, SE-Asians, Wisdom, borkjerfkin, buldermar
Human Destroyer (L-6): mantisdreamz

Not Voting: RachMarie

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.
Deadline is April 13th at 9:30 PM EST

The only one not voting as of this point was RachMarie, confirmed town.

Wisdom has 3 votes, one confirmed town, one confirmed scum, and one very likely town (mollie)

SE Asians if scum, is bussing his partner. He has one confirmed town on his wagon, and me and Kuror. If Asians is town, you can be sure one of me and Kuror are scum.

Knowing I am town, that means either Mollie pulled the biggest scum gambit I have seen in a while, or at least one scum is bussing Fate (two if Kuror is town).

Remembrance jumping off looks very very bad, esp under this scenario.

I really think this vote count is very telling in determining the scum team.

[I Am Innocent]

Flying back to the states tomorrow as I mentioned earlier. Catchup shortly thereafter.

[I Am Innocent]

Here are the top suspect list, I believe in the order they were submitted:

kuror - Rubicon & Mantis
bulder - Rubicon & Kuror
HD - SE Asians & Remembrance
Remembrance - Rubicon & HD
Rubicon - Bulder & HD & Mantis
Mantis - HD & Kuror & Rubicon
Mollie - Rubicon & Kuror
IAI - Kuror & Remembrance
SE Asians - IAI & HD

The 3 people that suspected HD prior to my reveal were Remembrance, Rubicon, and Mantis

I am willing to bet at least 1 scum in here.

One (at least) of Rubicon and Remembrance are scum.

[I Am Innocent]

Mom's computer sucks (which is where I am this weekend) so this is the best you get for responses....not as clean as it usually is:

First of all, there are 3 scum N1, 2 N2. So trying to figure out why scum Remembrance would or would not want to kill certain players is worthless without knowing the 3rd teammate.

My "wifoming" is not. I said AFTER HD claimed cop that HD was indeed town. I said AFTER HD claimed cop that Mantis and Rubicon should not claim their role, and esp not their night. Mantis a known doctor, could have protected HD for all the scum knew. THAT IS NOT WIFOM....THAT IS PRO-TOWN FACT RIGHT THERE. You pushing it any other way is just scummy.

And don't lie in saying "I think people are smart enough to go through and make their own conclusions. But you don't, you think everyone here is an idiot, except yourself." I have a ton of respect for Mollie, a big reason I joined this game. Nacho is also a great player, as is Wisdom....probably why both are dead. So now for the second time, stop trying to assume you know what is going through my head. Because that is twice you are wrong now.

And speaking of wanting you investigated, did you miss the part where it is only in the case Kuror flips scum??? So one, Kuror would have to be the lynch candidate, which with this town and my lack of confidence in it, I don't think that is going to happen today or ever. Second I would have to be right that he flipped scum. The fact that you are so nervous when two things would need to happen does not seem to be originating from clueless town. Now scum Remembrance with teammate Kuror would be nervous. See why this is pingin my scumdar?

As for the why you should have unvoted to consider the plan, I don't know, maybe if you thought it was even a chance of being a good plan that just maybe one of the two people who we are calling to protect should not get to L-1??? See without votes, no claim would happen. Scum would want the votes to stay there so a claim could happen and more knowledge would come of it.

IaI. You keep wifoming. Let me argue your way for a second. Why would I Nk or lynch those who were either completely certain I was town or had made cases for why I was town if they were scum? Cases which you have completely ignored. But you see, I don't argue this way because I think people are smart enough to go through and make their own conclusions. But you don't, you think everyone here is an idiot, except yourself. This is probably why Nacho thought you're an easy lynch.

Feel free to investigate me. But two things are going to happen tomorrow.

1. I will be dead.
2. Jon will not be dead.
3. You just forecasted who to investigate.
4. You know this but did it anyway. Which is anti-town. You're pretty much tunneling if you're town, since investigating me will reveal nothing I didn't already know.
5. Rubicon lied about replacing out as he was bored of mafia. Because he tried to replace into another game after he left this one. Which means...he's a jerk.

This was the 4th vote. Remembrance and Buldermar already had 2 votes on Rubicon, but never did remove their votes despite both considering the plan at points. I am pretty sure one of them are scum.

<- why would I need to unvote to consider your plan?

To me, it looks like scum Kuror doesn't want me looking too town.

<- Despite all your attempts to look at town as possible. Including but not limited saying you thought someone was going to hammer Rubicon, so you needed to ask him to claim before that happened. When this argument makes no logical sense, except you desperately trying to look town in all scenarios to gain credit to use as ammunition. Guess who else you killed because he kept challenging you? Guess who all of your scum reads are? Those that challenge you.

[I Am Innocent]

I don't understand it. It doesn't matter who Jon investigates if he is town because he will die. Investigating me, if he is town won't change anything, in fact announcing to investigate me under the assumption that Jon is town is down right illogical. I don't think he understands his position. The only thing directing the investigation does is implicate me in his death via guilt by association, a logical fallacy. Not that, that actually means anything either. @IaI, why did you even ask I be investigate if you're assuming Jon is town. Are you...? I don't understand.

I'm banking on Jon = Scum because Rubicon lied about his reasons for replacing out. If he lives tomorrow, we'll know the answer to this question regardless.

If Kuror flips scum, I am pretty sure you or jon would be the last scum. So if he survived, I'd want him to investigate you. Either you would be confirmed town, or he would have to go against you 1 vs 1 by saying you are scum (which with 1 mislynch at that point, it would be an auto-win).

[I Am Innocent]

I'm feeling a lazy right now, so I will post the stuff on my head tomorrow or something. IaI lining too many lynches based on too many speculations so without going further for now he is my biggest scum read.

VOTE: IaI

Lazy, OMGUS vote, confirmed scum.

Who else do you suspect?

[I Am Innocent]

Here are some of my thoughts from my top 2 suspect list request:

1) Everyone submitted prior to my investigation reveal except SE Asians. I did not bother to wait because I had a town read on SE Asians based on the Bacde flip.

2) Nobody included me on their list prior to the investigation reveal (SE Asians included me after my reveal).

3) 3 people included HD on their list prior to my reveal, SE Asians was a 4th after my reveal.

4) HD defended Bacde/Fate heavily D1, and if he is town (which I know to be true), I would expect at least 1 scum to include him as he'd be an easy target.

Here are the top suspect list, I believe in the order they were submitted:

kuror - Rubicon & Mantis
bulder - Rubicon & Kuror
HD - SE Asians & Remembrance
Remembrance - Rubicon & HD
Rubicon - Bulder & HD & Mantis
Mantis - HD & Kuror & Rubicon
Mollie - Rubicon & Kuror
IAI - Kuror & Remembrance
SE Asians - IAI & HD

The 3 people that suspected HD prior to my reveal were Remembrance, Rubicon, and Mantis

I am willing to bet at least 1 scum in here.

What is going to happen N3 is HD is going to die.

If Rubicon is town and alive going into N4, scum must kill him. I lean towards picking someone else to lynch today for this reason, esp since we have so many shady cats still alive.

My pool to lynch from in order of preference is Kuror > Remembrance/Mantis > Builder

I do not want to lynch from the other players at this point.

If someone does not have a vote out there currently, they really need to place one.

Unofficial Vote Count:

mantisdreamz (L-2): pirate mollie, kuror0, Human Destroyer
kuror0 (L-3): I Am Innocent, mantisdreamz
Rubicon (L-4): Remembrance
Buldermar (L-4): Rubicon

SE-Asians, buldermar

IaI. You keep wifoming. Let me argue your way for a second. Why would I Nk or lynch those who were either completely certain I was town or had made cases for why I was town if they were scum? Cases which you have completely ignored. But you see, I don't argue this way because I think people are smart enough to go through and make their own conclusions. But you don't, you think everyone here is an idiot, except yourself. This is probably why Nacho thought you're an easy lynch.

Feel free to investigate me. But two things are going to happen tomorrow.

1. I will be dead.
2. Jon will not be dead.
3. You just forecasted who to investigate.
4. You know this but did it anyway. Which is anti-town. You're pretty much tunneling if you're town, since investigating me will reveal nothing I didn't already know.
5. Rubicon lied about replacing out as he was bored of mafia. Because he tried to replace into another game after he left this one. Which means...he's a jerk.

This was the 4th vote. Remembrance and Buldermar already had 2 votes on Rubicon, but never did remove their votes despite both considering the plan at points. I am pretty sure one of them are scum.

<- why would I need to unvote to consider your plan?

To me, it looks like scum Kuror doesn't want me looking too town.

<- Despite all your attempts to look at town as possible. Including but not limited saying you thought someone was going to hammer Rubicon, so you needed to ask him to claim before that happened. When this argument makes no logical sense, except you desperately trying to look town in all scenarios to gain credit to use as ammunition. Guess who else you killed because he kept challenging you? Guess who all of your scum reads are? Those that challenge you.

I don't understand it. It doesn't matter who Jon investigates if he is town because he will die. Investigating me, if he is town won't change anything, in fact announcing to investigate me under the assumption that Jon is town is down right illogical. I don't think he understands his position. The only thing directing the investigation does is implicate me in his death via guilt by association, a logical fallacy. Not that, that actually means anything either. @IaI, why did you even ask I be investigate if you're assuming Jon is town. Are you...? I don't understand.

I'm banking on Jon = Scum because Rubicon lied about his reasons for replacing out. If he lives tomorrow, we'll know the answer to this question regardless.

I'm feeling a lazy right now, so I will post the stuff on my head tomorrow or something. IaI lining too many lynches based on too many speculations so without going further for now he is my biggest scum read.

VOTE: IaI

and lol and the "lining too many lynches". Was accused of the same thing D3 yet who got lynched....the person I tried to protect at the beginning of the day??? yeah, nice try.

[I Am Innocent]

stupid computer....only the last quote should have been on there.

[I Am Innocent]

oh god why the hell did we lynch mantis over rubicon what the fuck was I thinking at the time

jon you subbed into a seriously scummy slot and you are not making it any better

Just got back in from a lot of running around. A little more explanation would be helpful, I haven't really looked much at rubicon's play. I'll say the standard "don't lynch me I'm Town speech". But I really am.

Haven't Iso'd Kuror0 yet, just now getting to set down and really look at the game. I'm serious, p_m, I want your input, even if you think I'm scum. If I'm going to go, I'm going to go scumhunting. If I need to defend something, at least give me something better than "you're not making it better", please.

Remembrance is right, Rubicon was joining another game as he was abandoning this one. Not a kosher move for any player of any alignment.

I'm going to triple ISO kuror0, Remembrance, and IAI and see what I can.

Why just these 3 players?

[I Am Innocent]

2. Remembrance
5. jon_h61 [Replaced Rubicon (Replaced borkjerfkin)]
6. pirate mollie
7. I Am Innocent
9. SE-Asians (Lincolm + SorasAdvent + thenewearth Hydra)
13. kuror0

mollie and Asians are virtually confirmed town to me with Rem up there too, which means two of Rubi-slot, IAI and Kuro are scum.

If I can verify that IAI didn't make a gambit, the scum team will be Rubi-slot + Kuro

Either way, lynching Rubi today over either of Kuro and IAI is terrible, so todays lynch options are IAI and Kuro.

~10 posts earlier you said you were pretty sure I was town, what changed?

[I Am Innocent]

Reading IAI in ISO, the whole idea of getting top 2 suspects from every player could be a deliberate way to "figure out" who to pretend to have a result on if he was making a gambit.

Okay, go one step further. Why HD then? Why the now known N3 cop (and at that point, claimed cop), and why try to keep him safe by keeping Mantis, a now known doc hidden?

No reason other than I am town and my investigation was legit.

Why did Nacho die N2 over anyone from the unknown pool, which contained a known cop? And what are the chances that scum would just happen to pick Kuror's investigation target?

And why did Kuror only have 1 scum suspect in his pool to investigate, and not investigate that person (Mantis)?

[I Am Innocent]

Rubicon, claim time

Yes, I got the prod. Will post more tonight - I'm going out for the next few hours.

I'm a night 4 cop.

Could you explain to me again why you asked Rubi to claim?

He was at L-1, I did not want an accidental or purposeful hammer*** on a possible N3 doctor.

***And please people, don't act like this doesn't happen, I could go through a number of games where both town and scum hammer without a claim.

[I Am Innocent]

Now to see who pushed Rubicon (forcing a claim)

Also you're going to have to explain this to me. Am I wrong in my understanding that you were the one asking Rubicon to claim?

Claims don't happen at L-5, L-4, L-3, or L-2. They happen at L-1. So if those first 4 votes don't happen, no claim happens. Comprendo?

[I Am Innocent]

I knew HD was town because I investigated him. You, unless you are scum, did not. Yet you were in there trying to discredit me before I even got credit, like you knew 1) HD was town too (only scum or people who investigated him would know this) and that 2) you now had everyone's role, so you indeed were sure HD was the NK target.

So yes, coming from you at that point was indeed scummy, or in Wisdom's words, a bad post.

There is no way scum IAI would 1) pick a claimed N3 cop to clear when I had 3 other choices followed by 2) trying my best to keep the claimed cop protected......NO MATTER HOW MUCH TOWN CRED I COULD GET. So your attempt to insiniuate so is VERY scummy.

And stop saying I didn't do anything to stop your list. You came up with names, and I suggested a counter method and Nacho suggested two methods...yet you held the course. Don't blame us....you were the one who did not agree with our suggestions.

Lastly, you apparently are not reading my posts. I have repeated since Fate has flipped that SE Asians is town. So my putting it out there that if SE Asians is scum it means he bussed fate, it means I don't believe that is the case. At all. I dare you to find a post where I insinuate you this D3 or D4

So now that I got some time I will explain why IaI is my biggest scum read:

To me, this looks like you just want to wash your hands off this.

To me, it looks like scum Kuror doesn't want me looking too town.

or to quote Wisdom ^bad post

If you gonna say that's a bad post would be nice to explain beyond, "He doesn't want me to look too town" which is not a real reason to discredit a post. I said you were just washing your hands off that hammer because you were blaming the Mantis lynch on herself before she even flipped, if you have things to prove my previous statement is wrong then let us know, but don't downgrade it to a simple personal attack just so you can deflect it.

@Kuror, why would scum IAI clear cop HD D3? And try to keep him protected by keeping docs (at least one, Mantis) hidden about what night they have their power? Why not clear someone else on my list, like SE Asians (voted him all D1), Rubicon, or Buldermar?

Your list is gone. Except Remembrance. I still believe that you are a fake cop, and Remembrance is your teammate. The same guy that derailed the Fate wagon D1, yet you continue to say is super town, but you want him on your list. Yeah, I don't buy it.

If you flip scum, Rubicon, you better investigate Remembrance tomorrow.

The question why would scum do X, you know is pure wifom. But if you want an answer I can think one: You didn't reveal who was your night investigation and when HD claimed cop you had the perfect time not only to not reveal a new town but to get super easy town cred.

You keep going back to my list to try to frame me. I will remember you that on my list I picked 2 people I read as town(Remember and Nacho) and 2 people I read as scum(Mantis and you). So, yeah I wanted Remem on my list to keep the balance and you didn't do anything to stop it, now you come like I forced it or ignored stuff just to do my will when I didn't do that. Last line directing investigation... pro town.

And lastly there is this post:

^ L-2

My feet are getting cold.

UNVOTE: Remembrance

L-3.

If you survive to day 2, what will you do?

SE-Asians (L-4): I Am Innocent, Human Destroyer, kuror0
Wisdom (L-4): Fate, Nachomamma8, pirate mollie
Fate (L-2): Remembrance, SE-Asians, Wisdom, borkjerfkin, buldermar
Human Destroyer (L-6): mantisdreamz

Not Voting: RachMarie

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.
Deadline is April 13th at 9:30 PM EST

SE Asians if scum, is bussing his partner. He has one confirmed town on his wagon, and me and Kuror. If Asians is town, you can be sure one of me and Kuror are scum.

Knowing I am town, that means either Mollie pulled the biggest scum gambit I have seen in a while, or at least one scum is bussing Fate (two if Kuror is town).

Remembrance jumping off looks very very bad, esp under this scenario.

I really think this vote count is very telling in determining the scum team.

Oh, the lining ups.

First open the possibility of Asians bussing Fate.

Then we have either a mollie gambit or 2 people bussing fate once I flip town. So that leave as possible lynches the following people: Remember, Asians, Jon or bulde. So currently he has set the possibility to lynch pretty much every single player alive. And seen his previous day game, I'm sure once I flip town he will push for either Remem or Asians(Jon here if he is not dead) and say they were bussing Fate and ignoring my flip as he did whit Mantis.

As I've said before all his wild theorization has been used to push the lynches whit no real bases and he keeps using it to keep his options open. So all this stuff makes me believe firmly he is scum.

[I Am Innocent]

By the way, if I remember correctly, IaI and Rem is town based on play in D3. And Buldermar is pretty slick, I forget which post, but we have bad condition right now.

What did Rem do D3 that makes you believe that?

[I Am Innocent]

p_m definitely has a unique playstyle, and I'm trying to adjust to it. I'll bow to others' opinions who have played with her more.

This is where I stand
Town
Buldemar
pirate mollie
me

nullish
Remembrance
kuror0

scum
IAI
SE Asians

Believe it or not I'm still going through ISOs and trying to get better reads. Current conversations would probably be better for that though.

Please explain why you feel the town are town and scum are scum on this list.

[I Am Innocent]

In P898 I agreed with most of his reads. In 1302 his WKing of Nacho sounds sincere, from a Town's point of view. His willingness to admit he may have been wrong in P1348.

And reading back over him, I feel his reads progressed naturally. So maybe he is more Town than null to me.

Please tell me his reads then....cause I only see 1 scum read, the OMGUS vote on me.

[I Am Innocent]

In P898 I agreed with most of his reads. In 1302 his WKing of Nacho sounds sincere, from a Town's point of view. His willingness to admit he may have been wrong in P1348.

And reading back over him, I feel his reads progressed naturally. So maybe he is more Town than null to me.

Nacho is a loud player....typically who I like to buddy to when scum. Just sayin'

[I Am Innocent]

So this vote is to 1) change my position and 2) to have a calm, very well reasoned and non- tunneling mylo.

Nothing about me being scummy. Nice way to protect yourself when I flip town.

PS - the funniest part is how you keep saying I am pushing you when in fact I am more sure and am more pushing kuror.

[I Am Innocent]

KUROR WHO DO YOU SUSPECT AS SCUM BESIDES ME?!?!?

[I Am Innocent]

Bulder, here is the post with my plan. You and Remembrance had votes on Rubicon. I suggested "we are best off keeping Rubicon and Mantis from claiming today"

At this point, there were two votes on Rubicon, you and Remembrance. If I am being lynched today because I didn't specify "Please remove votes on these players" well then I guess I am getting lynched for what I didn't think needed to be spelled out.

At my mom's sucky computer, so feel free to follow the trail from this post. Basically from my recollection, there was some reaction that I was protecting players (HD, Mantis, or Rubicon). There was Remembrance being wishy washy etc. But those unvotes never happened, nor did people heed my plan as two more votes came by people I knew/or sure was town (HD, and Mollie if I recall correctly). At this point I knew my plan was not being heeded, so for fear of a quickhammer on someone who many people suspected, I asked for a claim of someone who could be a N3 doc.

Asking for a claim is DIFFERENT than who pushed for a claim. Pushing Rubicon toward a claim were all those against my plan, as well as all those who had votes on him. If you can't see that difference, then let's chat more on this postgame. Don't know how else I can spell that out for you now.

Before anyone hammers, ask yourself this:

I asked for top 2's, and other than SE Asians (who provided the list AFTER my HD investigation result was announced), I was on 0 TOP TWO LISTS. So why the gambit like people are suggesting. Why come up with plans that draw attention to me, why try to protect HD and even more, Mantis, an unknown many suspected. What scum motivation was there? Why not lay low, because that is how scum IAI would have played it at 7-2 with nobody suspecting him. Even if Rubicon was my partner, then that means only HD was the last living cop....and based on his top 2 was not going to investigate me. Why not lay low....I obv didn't need town cred (like Kuror suggests) because nobody suspected me!!!

Kuror continues to say he is lazy, insisted on his investigation list, didn't change it when 3 other plans were brought forward, then a town read who already used his power rendering him vanilla the rest of the game, who he says he investigated over his scum read, conveniently was the kill. Then his only scum read today is me, someone he did not suspect until D3 AFTER I STARTED ATTACKING HIM.

And you are picking me as the lynch before him. Shame on all of you. Whatever, at this point I am done playing with most of you. Many of you need a lot of work on your game. And Mollie, get over the last game already. Posh is over. I know I fooled you bad, but don't let the paranoia get to you. Read the section above and ask if you really think I'd play that way as scum?

Good luck, hope I am right about Kuror, cause if I am not, he is going to be the easy mislynch D5. And don't automatically believe jon D5 either, in LyLo fake scum can go for broke in that situation.

Changed my mind, I am not going to wait for SE Asians.

I investigated Human Destroyer last night. He came back as town.

That means between Rach, myself, HD, and Mollie, I am very certain that is 4 cops. We have between 4 & 6 cops. With Rubicon, Mantis, and SE Asians all still unknown, it makes Kuror0 seem a little more suspicious. Factor in the investigation target coincidentally ended up getting NK'd, and he insisted on his target list, I am believing less and less that he is legit.

Unless you think the scum team is HD & myself, he is a legit cop. We need him to be protected, or at least seem possibly protected, hence why I think we are best off keeping Rubicon and Mantis from claiming today (unless they are a N3 cop, then they claim and we split the investigation targets again, this time with Mollie dividing the list).

Thoughts on the plan?

PS - Those who had HD in their top 2, would you please replace him with someone else?

vote kuror0

[I Am Innocent]

^ L-2

My feet are getting cold.

UNVOTE: Remembrance

L-3.

If you survive to day 2, what will you do?

SE-Asians (L-4): I Am Innocent, Human Destroyer, kuror0
Wisdom (L-4): Fate, Nachomamma8, pirate mollie
Fate (L-2): Remembrance, SE-Asians, Wisdom, borkjerfkin, buldermar
Human Destroyer (L-6): mantisdreamz

Not Voting: RachMarie

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.
Deadline is April 13th at 9:30 PM EST

Also, don't forget this post. This unvote derailed the Fate wagon D1, and once my flip is revealed, the only living people not on Fate are kuror and pirate mollie. so unless you feel both of these are scum, that would mean at least one scum was on the Fate wagon. Why not the person who got cold feet...

[I Am Innocent]

Changed my mind, I am not going to wait for SE Asians.

I investigated Human Destroyer last night. He came back as town.

That means between Rach, myself, HD, and Mollie, I am very certain that is 4 cops. We have between 4 & 6 cops. With Rubicon, Mantis, and SE Asians all still unknown, it makes Kuror0 seem a little more suspicious. Factor in the investigation target coincidentally ended up getting NK'd, and he insisted on his target list, I am believing less and less that he is legit.

Unless you think the scum team is HD & myself, he is a legit cop. We need him to be protected, or at least seem possibly protected, hence why I think we are best off keeping Rubicon and Mantis from claiming today (unless they are a N3 cop, then they claim and we split the investigation targets again, this time with Mollie dividing the list).

Thoughts on the plan?

PS - Those who had HD in their top 2, would you please replace him with someone else?

vote kuror0

^ L-2

My feet are getting cold.

UNVOTE: Remembrance

L-3.

If you survive to day 2, what will you do?

SE-Asians (L-4): I Am Innocent, Human Destroyer, kuror0
Wisdom (L-4): Fate, Nachomamma8, pirate mollie
Fate (L-2): Remembrance, SE-Asians, Wisdom, borkjerfkin, buldermar
Human Destroyer (L-6): mantisdreamz

Not Voting: RachMarie

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.
Deadline is April 13th at 9:30 PM EST

Also like the "If you survive to day 2, what will you do?"

....like, give me some justification for letting you live partner....

Kuror & Remembrance, that is my best guess at this point in the game.

[I Am Innocent]

Only other thought I had was Fate claimed N3 cop. If Fate knew there were 6 real cops, he was putting himself in danger end game as cops died and came out. Plus the Nacho kill with 2 claimed N2 cops investigating, HD a N3 cop, Rubicon a claimed N4 cop, does not add up as scum worried about many future claims.

One cop is lying. I know I'm not, so it must be kuror and Rubicon, I am sure (at least) one of these are scum.

[I Am Innocent]

Before anyone hammers, ask yourself this:

I asked for top 2's, and other than SE Asians (who provided the list AFTER my HD investigation result was announced), I was on 0 TOP TWO LISTS. So why the gambit like people are suggesting. Why come up with plans that draw attention to me, why try to protect HD and even more, Mantis, an unknown many suspected. What scum motivation was there? Why not lay low, because that is how scum IAI would have played it at 7-2 with nobody suspecting him. Even if Rubicon was my partner, then that means only HD was the last living cop....and based on his top 2 was not going to investigate me. Why not lay low....I obv didn't need town cred (like Kuror suggests) because nobody suspected me!!!

This is the type of backwards self-meta that's utterly useless.

For all I know, you could do the gambit so that you can point out how unlikely it would be for you to do it as scum. IIRC, mollie even pointed out previously that you have done similar stuff in the past. That itself can potentially constitute scum-motivation.

Don't tell me "how scum IAI would have played it" - I trust that you're smart enough to understand why.

Forget scum IAI then. Insert scum Anybody in there. Does it make sense as good scum play?

[I Am Innocent]

And you are picking me as the lynch before him. Shame on all of you. Whatever, at this point I am done playing with most of you. Many of you need a lot of work on your game. And Mollie, get over the last game already. Posh is over. I know I fooled you bad, but don't let the paranoia get to you. Read the section above and ask if you really think I'd play that way as scum?

I havn't picked you before him as a lynch - you seem a bit quick to jump to conclusions? I've explicitly said that I don't actually care who gets lynched first as long as we lynch Rubi tomorrow instead of today.

Am I included in the group of people you are done playing with who needs to work on their game? This is an important question for a reason I will not disclose yet.

1) Do you think one, and only one of kuror and IAI are scum? If so, this statement is really bad "I've explicitly said that I don't actually care who gets lynched first as long as we lynch Rubi tomorrow instead of today."

2) If you are town, you are included in the group of people I do not care to play with in future games, yes.

[I Am Innocent]

Good luck, hope I am right about Kuror, cause if I am not, he is going to be the easy mislynch D5. And don't automatically believe jon D5 either, in LyLo fake scum can go for broke in that situation.

You must really think I'm retarded.

Your not the only one in this game I feel that way about right now.

[I Am Innocent]

^ L-2

My feet are getting cold.

UNVOTE: Remembrance

L-3.

If you survive to day 2, what will you do?

SE-Asians (L-4): I Am Innocent, Human Destroyer, kuror0
Wisdom (L-4): Fate, Nachomamma8, pirate mollie
Fate (L-2): Remembrance, SE-Asians, Wisdom, borkjerfkin, buldermar
Human Destroyer (L-6): mantisdreamz

Not Voting: RachMarie

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.
Deadline is April 13th at 9:30 PM EST

Also, don't forget this post. This unvote derailed the Fate wagon D1, and once my flip is revealed, the only living people not on Fate are kuror and pirate mollie. so unless you feel both of these are scum, that would mean at least one scum was on the Fate wagon. Why not the person who got cold feet...

If you actually are town and can explain how Rem without a doubt is scum because of that, I'll try to stay open-minded and read it carefully, because he's as firmly placed in my town-pile as they get.

kuror0 (L-3): I Am Innocent
I Am Innocent (L-1): kuror0, Remembrance, pirate mollie

Not Voting: buldermar, SE-Asians, jon_h61

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.
Deadline is on Thursday, May 30th, at 10:00 PM EST.

When I flip town, you will see that the only living players were kuror and mollie to not be on the fate wagon. Unless you think this is the scum team, that means there is scum on the Fate wagon. And who jumped off, for no good reason at all.....Remembrance.

Is he "without a doubt is scum because of that", no, but factor in his poor vote for me today, his being on kuror's investigation list despite being very town in kuror's eyes, his quick analysis of Nacho's reads as soon as Nacho was NK'd (portraying himself and kuror in as good a light as Remembrance could make it...), he is pretty scummy in my eyes, esp in concert with kuror. Once again, many of this is dependent on kuror being scum too, hence why I think kuror should go first.

[I Am Innocent]

Also like the "If you survive to day 2, what will you do?"

....like, give me some justification for letting you live partner....

I don't recall ever having seen scum communicate within the thread in this manner. Have you?

I've seen scum coach in thread before, yes.

[I Am Innocent]

are you voting IaI buldey?

Are you scum mollie? Because if so, well played. You seem to be skating by, and your "why am I still alive" comments feel a bit fake. Like you really thought you would die before a N3 cop with no docs???

[I Am Innocent]

Good luck, hope I am right about Kuror, cause if I am not, he is going to be the easy mislynch D5. And don't automatically believe jon D5 either, in LyLo fake scum can go for broke in that situation.

I think very likely the two scum will be in Rubi-slot, kuro and IAI. I think we shouldn't lynch Rubi-slot today for reasons already explained, so that makes it an option between IAI and kuro. I still have to look more into kuro as well.

Warning everyone to be wary of me seems more a ploy to keep yourself around. I don't think anyone who's posted lately are

automatically believing

me. This is especially worrying to me because I'm pretty certain I won't be around Day 5.

Remembrance I know you asked me some questions yesterday, but I didn't have time then. I'll get to them sometime today.

Buldemar Town
Remembrance Town
pirate mollie Town
me Town
Se-Asian Town???

That leaves IAI and kuror0. If we lynch one of them and they're not scum, and I'm alive tomorrow (doubtful), then I pray I get a guilty. I'll even investigate by consensus of my Town reads.
Does that worry you a little scums?

This feels fake.

[I Am Innocent]

"I think I've said it before but your confirmation of HD as town is one very easy way to get towncred and not having to reveal any other town."

MORON I HAD NOBODY SUSPECT ME ON THE TOP TWO. I DID NOT NEED TOWNCRED.

REVEALING HD AS TOWN IS NO DIFFERENT THAN REVEALING ANOTHER PLAYER AS TOWN, THAT DOES NOT MAKE SENSE.

"No cop has been lynched the on the day of his power and many of us has expressed being against lynching a cop before his potential reveal"

THAT IS BECAUSE THERE WERE ALWAYS POSSIBLE DOCS PROTECTING THEM. WHY WAS THERE NO POSSIBLE DOCS PROTECTING HD??? MAYBE BECAUSE PEOPLE DID NOT LISTEN TO MY PLAN ABOUT KEEPING RUBICON AND MANTIS OFF LIMITS!!!

"Due to scums night targets so far I still believe they are not that worried about night investigations."

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL...WHO DIED LAST NIGHT MORON!?!?!

"he is a good player and represents a threat to scum"

WHICH MADE HIM A BAD PERSON TO INVESTIGATE BECAUSE SCUM MIGHT POSSIBLY KILL HIM AT NIGHT. IF YOU WERE WRONG ABOUT MANTIS BEING SCUM, IT WOULDN'T MATTER BECAUSE SCUM WOULD LEAVE HER ALONE AS A MISLYNCH TARGET. YOUR CHOICE SUCKED...AND CONVENIENTLY WAS NK'D OVER FUTURE COPS/UNKNOWN POOL (E.G. HD)

"Taking it down to a omgus vote is lame. I have been saying since D3 I see your play as opportunistic and have said explicitly what I found scummy about you. You keep repeating that pattern on D4 and say my vote is only omgus?"

YOU DID NOT HAVE ME IN YOUR TOP 2 SUSPECTS AT THE BEGINNING OF D3. I ATTACKED YOU AND EVER SINCE YOU HAVE SUSPECTED ME. OMGUS AT THE CORE BABY!!!

My "wifoming" is not. I said AFTER HD claimed cop that HD was indeed town. I said AFTER HD claimed cop that Mantis and Rubicon should not claim their role, and esp not their night. Mantis a known doctor, could have protected HD for all the scum knew. THAT IS NOT WIFOM....THAT IS PRO-TOWN FACT RIGHT THERE. You pushing it any other way is just scummy.

I have a ton of respect for Mollie, a big reason I joined this game. Nacho is also a great player, as is Wisdom....probably why both are dead.

1st paragraph. Your wifom IS wifom. No matter how much you try to make it look better. I think I've said it before but your confirmation of HD as town is one very easy way to get towncred and not having to reveal any other town. You are accusing me of doing this when I investigate Nacho but you refuse to admit your case has a lot of similitudes, so keep twisting stuff. No cop has been lynched the on the day of his power and many of us has expressed being against lynching a cop before his potential reveal. So when you try to make it look like you saved HD from a lynch by confirming him as town is a total exaggeration to me. As far as trying to protect him by trying to keep hid the other 2 power roles is a normal follow up. Due to scums night targets so far I still believe they are not that worried about night investigations.

2nd paragraph. I want to point out how you have pushed on me super hard for Nacho being killed when I investigated him over other targets(possibly cop ones) but here you accept he is a good player and represents a threat to scum. So you understand why they could have killed him but still negate that understanding in order to push for my lynch. So tell me how is that pro town or objective in any way.

Lazy, OMGUS vote, confirmed scum.

Taking it down to a omgus vote is lame. I have been saying since D3 I see your play as opportunistic and have said explicitly what I found scummy about you. You keep repeating that pattern on D4 and say my vote is only omgus?

and lol and the "lining too many lynches". Was accused of the same thing D3 yet who got lynched....the person I tried to protect at the beginning of the day??? yeah, nice try.

Exactly my points. You are lining up people. You may have started defending but ended up hammering(one more time opportunistic plays) and washing your hands off it even before the flip.

Okay, go one step further. Why HD then? Why the now known N3 cop (and at that point, claimed cop), and why try to keep him safe by keeping Mantis, a now known doc hidden?

No reason other than I am town and my investigation was legit.

And why did Kuror only have 1 scum suspect in his pool to investigate, and not investigate that person (Mantis)?

Once again saying you did X action and that it can only come from town is an exaggeration. Trying to look more town by distorting facts is not something I consider pro town and have actually catch scum doing it.

About my list and the people on it. I have explained it already like 3 times. I first just said 4 people I had interest to investigate. 2 scums and 2 towns on my reads. I had reasons to want to investigate everyone of them, some stronger than others and so my pick. And I just did at first to avoid colliding targets whit the other cop. Later the thing advanced and stuff but I have tried to explain thoroughly my thought process and decisions I made since D2.

I knew HD was town because I investigated him. You, unless you are scum, did not. Yet you were in there trying to discredit me before I even got credit, like you knew 1) HD was town too (only scum or people who investigated him would know this) and that 2) you now had everyone's role, so you indeed were sure HD was the NK target.

So yes, coming from you at that point was indeed scummy, or in Wisdom's words, a bad post.

There is no way scum IAI would 1) pick a claimed N3 cop to clear when I had 3 other choices followed by 2) trying my best to keep the claimed cop protected......NO MATTER HOW MUCH TOWN CRED I COULD GET. So your attempt to insiniuate so is VERY scummy.

And stop saying I didn't do anything to stop your list. You came up with names, and I suggested a counter method and Nacho suggested two methods...yet you held the course. Don't blame us....you were the one who did not agree with our suggestions.

Lastly, you apparently are not reading my posts. I have repeated since Fate has flipped that SE Asians is town. So my putting it out there that if SE Asians is scum it means he bussed fate, it means I don't believe that is the case. At all. I dare you to find a post where I insinuate you this D3 or D4

I don't know what are you talking about on paragraph 1. I was talking about washing your hands off the Mantis hammer, never mentioned HD on that post, which is the one you called bad post.

Another "I swear I would never do this as scum" defense. Pure BS.

Lastly, one more time. I already explained the situations and thoughts about it. I even quoted the post where Nacho said to not investigate you and to not do some other idea there was out there. So please keep pushing on me based on this and ignoring what I have shown.



Well this is from the posts IaI made when he came back(page 129). I didn't had the chance to answer to it previously or to make my input so here it is. Soon more stuff from the other pages.

[I Am Innocent]

"I think I've said it before but your confirmation of HD as town is one very easy way to get towncred and not having to reveal any other town."

MORON I HAD NOBODY SUSPECT ME ON THE TOP TWO. I DID NOT NEED TOWNCRED.

REVEALING HD AS TOWN IS NO DIFFERENT THAN REVEALING ANOTHER PLAYER AS TOWN, THAT DOES NOT MAKE SENSE.

"No cop has been lynched the on the day of his power and many of us has expressed being against lynching a cop before his potential reveal"

THAT IS BECAUSE THERE WERE ALWAYS POSSIBLE DOCS PROTECTING THEM. WHY WAS THERE NO POSSIBLE DOCS PROTECTING HD??? MAYBE BECAUSE PEOPLE DID NOT LISTEN TO MY PLAN ABOUT KEEPING RUBICON AND MANTIS OFF LIMITS!!!

"Due to scums night targets so far I still believe they are not that worried about night investigations."

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL...WHO DIED LAST NIGHT MORON!?!?!

"he is a good player and represents a threat to scum"

WHICH MADE HIM A BAD PERSON TO INVESTIGATE BECAUSE SCUM MIGHT POSSIBLY KILL HIM AT NIGHT. IF YOU WERE WRONG ABOUT MANTIS BEING SCUM, IT WOULDN'T MATTER BECAUSE SCUM WOULD LEAVE HER ALONE AS A MISLYNCH TARGET. YOUR CHOICE SUCKED...AND CONVENIENTLY WAS NK'D OVER FUTURE COPS/UNKNOWN POOL (E.G. HD)

"Taking it down to a omgus vote is lame. I have been saying since D3 I see your play as opportunistic and have said explicitly what I found scummy about you. You keep repeating that pattern on D4 and say my vote is only omgus?"

YOU DID NOT HAVE ME IN YOUR TOP 2 SUSPECTS AT THE BEGINNING OF D3. I ATTACKED YOU AND EVER SINCE YOU HAVE SUSPECTED ME. OMGUS AT THE CORE BABY!!!

My "wifoming" is not. I said AFTER HD claimed cop that HD was indeed town. I said AFTER HD claimed cop that Mantis and Rubicon should not claim their role, and esp not their night. Mantis a known doctor, could have protected HD for all the scum knew. THAT IS NOT WIFOM....THAT IS PRO-TOWN FACT RIGHT THERE. You pushing it any other way is just scummy.

I have a ton of respect for Mollie, a big reason I joined this game. Nacho is also a great player, as is Wisdom....probably why both are dead.

1st paragraph. Your wifom IS wifom. No matter how much you try to make it look better. I think I've said it before but your confirmation of HD as town is one very easy way to get towncred and not having to reveal any other town. You are accusing me of doing this when I investigate Nacho but you refuse to admit your case has a lot of similitudes, so keep twisting stuff. No cop has been lynched the on the day of his power and many of us has expressed being against lynching a cop before his potential reveal. So when you try to make it look like you saved HD from a lynch by confirming him as town is a total exaggeration to me. As far as trying to protect him by trying to keep hid the other 2 power roles is a normal follow up. Due to scums night targets so far I still believe they are not that worried about night investigations.

2nd paragraph. I want to point out how you have pushed on me super hard for Nacho being killed when I investigated him over other targets(possibly cop ones) but here you accept he is a good player and represents a threat to scum. So you understand why they could have killed him but still negate that understanding in order to push for my lynch. So tell me how is that pro town or objective in any way.

Lazy, OMGUS vote, confirmed scum.

Taking it down to a omgus vote is lame. I have been saying since D3 I see your play as opportunistic and have said explicitly what I found scummy about you. You keep repeating that pattern on D4 and say my vote is only omgus?

and lol and the "lining too many lynches". Was accused of the same thing D3 yet who got lynched....the person I tried to protect at the beginning of the day??? yeah, nice try.

Exactly my points. You are lining up people. You may have started defending but ended up hammering(one more time opportunistic plays) and washing your hands off it even before the flip.

Okay, go one step further. Why HD then? Why the now known N3 cop (and at that point, claimed cop), and why try to keep him safe by keeping Mantis, a now known doc hidden?

No reason other than I am town and my investigation was legit.

And why did Kuror only have 1 scum suspect in his pool to investigate, and not investigate that person (Mantis)?

Once again saying you did X action and that it can only come from town is an exaggeration. Trying to look more town by distorting facts is not something I consider pro town and have actually catch scum doing it.

About my list and the people on it. I have explained it already like 3 times. I first just said 4 people I had interest to investigate. 2 scums and 2 towns on my reads. I had reasons to want to investigate everyone of them, some stronger than others and so my pick. And I just did at first to avoid colliding targets whit the other cop. Later the thing advanced and stuff but I have tried to explain thoroughly my thought process and decisions I made since D2.

I knew HD was town because I investigated him. You, unless you are scum, did not. Yet you were in there trying to discredit me before I even got credit, like you knew 1) HD was town too (only scum or people who investigated him would know this) and that 2) you now had everyone's role, so you indeed were sure HD was the NK target.

So yes, coming from you at that point was indeed scummy, or in Wisdom's words, a bad post.

There is no way scum IAI would 1) pick a claimed N3 cop to clear when I had 3 other choices followed by 2) trying my best to keep the claimed cop protected......NO MATTER HOW MUCH TOWN CRED I COULD GET. So your attempt to insiniuate so is VERY scummy.

And stop saying I didn't do anything to stop your list. You came up with names, and I suggested a counter method and Nacho suggested two methods...yet you held the course. Don't blame us....you were the one who did not agree with our suggestions.

Lastly, you apparently are not reading my posts. I have repeated since Fate has flipped that SE Asians is town. So my putting it out there that if SE Asians is scum it means he bussed fate, it means I don't believe that is the case. At all. I dare you to find a post where I insinuate you this D3 or D4

I don't know what are you talking about on paragraph 1. I was talking about washing your hands off the Mantis hammer, never mentioned HD on that post, which is the one you called bad post.

Another "I swear I would never do this as scum" defense. Pure BS.

Lastly, one more time. I already explained the situations and thoughts about it. I even quoted the post where Nacho said to not investigate you and to not do some other idea there was out there. So please keep pushing on me based on this and ignoring what I have shown.



Well this is from the posts IaI made when he came back(page 129). I didn't had the chance to answer to it previously or to make my input so here it is. Soon more stuff from the other pages.

[I Am Innocent]

KUROR, LIST OF PLAYERS FROM TOWNIEST TO SCUMMIEST, RIGHT NOW!

(OFF TO WORK NOW...WILL SAY THIS CAPS LOCK THING IS MAKING ME FEEL A BIT BETTER RIGHT NOW)

[I Am Innocent]

3 hours until deadline I think?

For mollie on why I hammered when I did...

[I Am Innocent]

IaI will you sheep my vote?

I might. I want to see what Kuror does now that his one suspect has only his vote now. With the deadline just over 24 hrs, his move interests me most. Also curious to see what bulder does, he was ready to hammer me earlier....does that hold true for kuror or jon if they get to L-1.

Jon who was ready to hammer me but now does not seem very interested in pushing to kuror to L-1 24+ hrs from the deadline is also interesting.

[I Am Innocent]

At this point seems it is jon or me, but I would really like to lynch IaI. The chances of him flipping scum are very high imo.

I will hope and wait for people to realize about IaI and vote him. I will vote for Jon if it is to secure a lynch before deadline not before that. Also couldn't help but notice how the IaI wagon fell apart just when the hammer was close and no one said anything of why they change their mind on him.

I will post my full reads before I get lynched or the day ends

.

You have been asked multiple times for reads, yet you continue to wait? I've seen passive scum do this for fear of upsetting other players/drawing their votes.

As for the IAI wagon falling apart, speak your mind. I am scum and one of my partners derailed it? Mollie? Remembrance? Stop being vague and put it out there. NOW!

[I Am Innocent]

Re post 3399 by Kuror

"one thing is not being worried about night investigations and other is not taking a free cop kill. That's the difference."

If they were truly not worried about night investigations, why not kill mollie over the free cop kill? Because maybe they were....I don't know......worried about night investigations???

The truth is, the scum don't like night investigations, but aren't willing to risk a No NK over it. Which makes sense. And with Nacho a N1 doc out there, they made the right move N1. N2 is still the one that bothers me. Bulder softclaimed doc, which makes sense why they didn't target me (or you if you are legit). But why Nacho over the unknown pool, which contained 1-2 cops (we'll know the number once jon flips)? The only reason I have is that they traded over a possible future cop kill over something else.

That something else looks bad for:
1) you, since you "investigated" the NK target and that allowed you an out for not confirming another living player
2) Jon, since the chances of hitting a future unknown cop were pretty high if the scum knew there were still 2 cops in the unknown pool (HD and Jon). If there was only 1 (HD), the chances of hitting that one is much less, and makes sense that scum might rather be willing to take out a loud leader.

So either way, I like were D4 is headed. These are the two best wagons imo. Need to hear from kuror (still), bulder (thought you were going to hammer last night?), and jon. Seems like 2 of these 3 are still waiting on a wagon on me to reform...

[I Am Innocent]

@ IAI I told Buldemar I'd lend him my vote.

By the way, this whole practice is very bad. Jon, I want you to answer why.

[I Am Innocent]

You keep saying kuror and me, but this is the 2nd time u've come after me, and this 2nd time despite kuror being closer to a lynch. I don't get it unless u two are scum mates...

Bulder and Jon, if u won't and don't move ur votes to kuror, my vote goes to u Jon. Lets see how adamant both of u feel that lynching Jon over kuror is the wrong move today...

[I Am Innocent]

possible scum teams: Bulder/Jon, Jon/Kuror, Kuror/Remembrance

Good luck. Remember my top 2 lists from D3 and who put HD on it (I GUARANTEE at least one of those 2 remaining players are scum), and remember the post/vote where Remembrance jumped off of Fate, that will be very telling too in that Kuror and Mollie were the only two people not on the Fate wagon when Remembrance jumped off (puts Kuror and Remembrance in a bad light). HIGHLY UNLIKELY THAT TWO TEAMMATES WERE BOTH BUSSING FATE.

Don't automatically believe/condemn Jon if/when he is still alive tomorrow. In LyLo, the WIFOM is going to be crazy with this bunch!

[I Am Innocent]

Willing to switch to Jon if Asians/Remembrance are game, or Kuror if Jon/Bulder are game. Otherwise, adios!

PS - And I <3 you too Mollie...still glad I signed up as frustrating as most of these players were.

[I Am Innocent]

^ L-2

My feet are getting cold.

UNVOTE: Remembrance

L-3.

If you survive to day 2, what will you do?

SE-Asians (L-4): I Am Innocent, Human Destroyer, kuror0
Wisdom (L-4): Fate, Nachomamma8, pirate mollie
Fate (L-2): Remembrance, SE-Asians, Wisdom, borkjerfkin, buldermar
Human Destroyer (L-6): mantisdreamz

Not Voting: RachMarie

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.
Deadline is April 13th at 9:30 PM EST

Also, don't forget this post. This unvote derailed the Fate wagon D1, and once my flip is revealed, the only living people not on Fate are kuror and pirate mollie. so unless you feel both of these are scum, that would mean at least one scum was on the Fate wagon. Why not the person who got cold feet...

For easier reference.

[I Am Innocent]

Here are the top suspect list, I believe in the order they were submitted:

kuror - Rubicon & Mantis
bulder - Rubicon & Kuror
HD - SE Asians & Remembrance
Remembrance - Rubicon & HD
Rubicon - Bulder & HD & Mantis
Mantis - HD & Kuror & Rubicon
Mollie - Rubicon & Kuror
IAI - Kuror & Remembrance
SE Asians - IAI & HD

The 3 people that suspected HD prior to my reveal were Remembrance, Rubicon, and Mantis

I am willing to bet at least 1 scum in here.

One (at least) of Rubicon and Remembrance are scum.

And this too...

[I Am Innocent]

Still feeling Kuror and Remembrance as I look at those top 2...

kuror0 (L-2): I Am Innocent, SE-Asians
I Am Innocent (L-1): kuror0, jon_h61, Remembrance
jon_h61 (L-3): pirate mollie

Not Voting: buldermar

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.
Deadline is on Thursday, May 30th, at 10:00 PM EST.

[I Am Innocent]

Will do my best here on my smart phone:

D3 after I confirmed that hd was a cop, I suggested a plan that said we consider mantis and rubicon off limits, to keep them from claiming.

I was quickly met with much sceptism that I was scum trying to protect a teammate. This was sign #1 that this was not going to happen.

Then rubicon, who had 2 votes when my plan was suggested, received 2 more, including the nearly confirmed cop hd and nearly confirmed town mollie. This was sign #2 that my plan was not being accepted.

Since my plan was not being accepted, I felt the next best thing to do was ensure an accidental or intentional hammer did not happen on an unclaimed player, esp since he could be a n3 doc. So I asked for the claim as I felt that was all i had left.

Since it was in the best interest of scum to know the unknown roles, I was curious to see where the votes came from that got rubicon to l-1 and to my claim request.

[I Am Innocent]

Jon you vote me, but if u are town, u think I was really protecting 3 players (hd mantis and urself) putting me and a teammate in a pot of 6 to lynch from d3?

At least I can see where mollie comes from when she points to u and me as a possible scum team...u tho, it does not make any sense.

[I Am Innocent]

I need to go back to day 2 but I think most players said that they were not a d2 power role. (Originally going off the revised plan) if bulder was the only unclaimed player for night 2, he is nearly confirmed town in my eyes as scum bulder could have killed me and said he protected kuror instead (bulder was in my pool). If there was another unclaimed player, scratch this idea.

Which keeps bringing me back to kuror...

[I Am Innocent]

Yeah bulder is town, by the time fate was lynched, bulder was the only possible n2 doc (unless scum did not believe Asians n5 claim day one). Scum bulder had a free shot at a cop and could have claimed to protect the other one...

[I Am Innocent]

Rubicon claimed no n2 power in post 2268, HD in 2269, mantis in 2642. Kuror and I claimed n2 cops + there were the 3 claimed players from n1 + fate.

That left bulder and Asians

[I Am Innocent]

Will do my best here on my smart phone:

D3 after I confirmed that hd was a cop, I suggested a plan that said we consider mantis and rubicon off limits, to keep them from claiming.

I was quickly met with much sceptism that I was scum trying to protect a teammate. This was sign #1 that this was not going to happen.

Then rubicon, who had 2 votes when my plan was suggested, received 2 more, including the nearly confirmed cop hd and nearly confirmed town mollie. This was sign #2 that my plan was not being accepted.

Since my plan was not being accepted, I felt the next best thing to do was ensure an accidental or intentional hammer did not happen on an unclaimed player, esp since he could be a n3 doc. So I asked for the claim as I felt that was all i had left.

Since it was in the best interest of scum to know the unknown roles, I was curious to see where the votes came from that got rubicon to l-1 and to my claim request.

You're leaving out key aspects of this - in fact you left out nearly everything that is my reasoning for thinking you're likely to be scum.

- b

I honestly thought your issue was that you think when I said "who pushed for the claim" I meant who asked for the claim (you really think I would have forgotten it was me? ), while I actually meant who ignored the plan and helped him get to L-1. If there is another key aspect like you say, please share it again and I'll do my best to address it.

[I Am Innocent]

What I think happened is that he essentially forgot that he was the one asking rubi to claim and he thought he could make a scumcase on someone by "looking into who pushed rubi for a claim".

LOL, so you thought I would just pick a random mystery player, and not even check out who that player was (myself, my teammate as you suggest, just some random X) and attack them?

Come on, you're smarter than that.

[I Am Innocent]

Will do my best here on my smart phone:

D3 after I confirmed that hd was a cop, I suggested a plan that said we consider mantis and rubicon off limits, to keep them from claiming.

I was quickly met with much sceptism that I was scum trying to protect a teammate. This was sign #1 that this was not going to happen.

Then rubicon, who had 2 votes when my plan was suggested, received 2 more, including the nearly confirmed cop hd and nearly confirmed town mollie. This was sign #2 that my plan was not being accepted.

Since my plan was not being accepted, I felt the next best thing to do was ensure an accidental or intentional hammer did not happen on an unclaimed player, esp since he could be a n3 doc. So I asked for the claim as I felt that was all i had left.

Since it was in the best interest of scum to know the unknown roles, I was curious to see where the votes came from that got rubicon to l-1 and to my claim request.

You're leaving out key aspects of this - in fact you left out nearly everything that is my reasoning for thinking you're likely to be scum.

- b

I honestly thought your issue was that you think when I said "who pushed for the claim" I meant who asked for the claim (you really think I would have forgotten it was me? ), while I actually meant who ignored the plan and helped him get to L-1. If there is another key aspect like you say, please share it again and I'll do my best to address it.

Yes, I really think you would have forgotten that it was you.

My issue is primarily that I think you by saying "who pushed for the claim" actually meant "who asked rubi to claim". You didn't mention this at all when explaining things to rem.

Anyway, I think there isn't really any merit to having you explain it now.

Read my next post and then remember my play in Posh....does that really sound like the same scum to you?

Posh - crumbed Cop in my first post as a traitor
Attacked two players D1 and then dropped my attack of one of those players D2 so I'd have a town investigation ready
investigated the n2 NK target and got people to believe it
had 2 scum investigations and got both killed.

ducks in a row buddy, and here you think scum IAI pick someone at random who could be me or a teammate? Read my explanation again and look at this post and think objectively which is more likely.....town IAI or scum IAI. Cause your the only one who is stuck on this.

[I Am Innocent]

What I think happened is that he essentially forgot that he was the one asking rubi to claim and he thought he could make a scumcase on someone by "looking into who pushed rubi for a claim".

LOL, so you thought I would just pick a random mystery player, and not even check out who that player was (myself, my teammate as you suggest, just some random X) and attack them?

Come on, you're smarter than that.

It was just a tiny part of a huge list of things you said you were going to do IIRC. I think you'd mention it and then later on go "hey look guys I now looked into this and bla bla", and just avoid mentioning it if it wouldn't work to your advantage.

I swear if you are condescending just one more time I'm going to stop being diplomatic in my conversation with you. You have already stated that you think I'm retarded and that you are never going to play with me again. I don't personally have any issues with you, but there is a limit to the amount of crap I'm willing to take from you.

Condescending, like maybe what you said in 3149 "I know you're not stupid, so quit acting that way."

Respect goes both ways. Both with you (see above) and Remembrance (calling me a jerk). Both ways buddy.

[I Am Innocent]

bulder, it was not a random game, I picked the one game that you and I played together. It also happens to be the only game I played with Mollie, not sure if I ever played with anyone else that is still living.

[I Am Innocent]

By the way IaI, where is Buldermar + Kuroro, Buldermar + Remembrance, and Jon + Remembrance possibility?

IaI, I want this to be answered.

I think based off the latest info I brought forward about everyone but Buldey claiming not to be a N2 power role going into N2, and both claimed cops living over Nacho, that he (bulder) is likely town. Jon and Remembrance could be a possibility if Kuroro flips town. I don't think he will, based on how he showed up less than 10 mins after Mollie came in to declare her hammer attempt. Feels like active scum lurking to me...

[I Am Innocent]

vote Remembrance

I will present the updated case shortly, but here are my thoughts:

1) Mollie is my top town read too. If she is scum, this game is lost as it seems nobody will ever vote for her, so I think we need to assume she is indeed town.
2) If we mislynch today, D6 is either MyLo (if SE Asians is a doc AND he correctly protects the right person) or LyLo (if no interference on the NK)
3) Because of #2, I think it is more important to have Mollie alive D6 than try to get to MyLo over LyLo, so I suggest we have SE Asians announce in thread D5 that he is going to protect her N5. That way if he is scum, Mollie has to still be alive D6 or we auto-lynch him, and if he is not scum, she will be alive D6 as he will protect her and that increases our chances to win the game based on #1.

Jon being a cop and not being the lynch D4 was huge. I have inside knowledge that two of the three main wagons D4 were on town, so I suggest each of you reread D4 with the mindsets, 1) what if IAI is scum (easy, then he is the last one) & 2) what if IAI is town, who is the last scum.

[I Am Innocent]

Of the 5 living players, 3 were on the Fate wagon. I was not, nor was Mollie.

Of the 3 on the wagon, one jumped off at a critical moment that killed the wagon, with the poor reasoning that "My feet are getting cold."

Bulder and SE Asians holding tight are + points for them.

At kuror0, what do you think about the following unvote that basically killed the Fate wagon D1? Still scream town real hard for you? If not, did you miss this unvote D1 when developing your Remembrance D2 read?

^ L-2

My feet are getting cold.

UNVOTE: Remembrance

L-3.

If you survive to day 2, what will you do?

SE-Asians (L-4): I Am Innocent, Human Destroyer, kuror0
Wisdom (L-4): Fate, Nachomamma8, pirate mollie
Fate (L-2): Remembrance, SE-Asians, Wisdom, borkjerfkin, buldermar
Human Destroyer (L-6): mantisdreamz

Not Voting: RachMarie

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.
Deadline is April 13th at 9:30 PM EST

[I Am Innocent]

Then there was this string.

Scum Kuror picked his targets, and then stuck with them despite 3 suggestions against that. I still maintain that he wanted to keep his teammate on his list and away from mine. There is only one player left alive from his final list, the "something about him screams town real hard to me" Remembrance.

Not the kind of the person I'd include on a list...

Here is a little tidbit from end of D2 that has got me concerned (chronologically):

Yeah I can see things haven't got that far.

Anyways this is some stuff that is on the top on my head:

-IaI first post of the day was really towny but his D1 play was awful imo. So I still maintain a little the scum read on him.
-I have Mantis as scum.
-I already said this but Nacho's plan proposal and discussion is totally a null tell. That aside I do have him as town.
-I hate that Remember sometimes contradicts himself or do weird stuff. Yet something about him screams town real hard to me.

I will aim one of those 4 for my night investigation(tonight).

/off to sleep.

Interesting, because I am a N2 cop too (3 of them???)

As for investigating me, that would kill 2 birds with 1 stone N2 as it would allow 2 investigations to be gone if there is no N2 doc and juror is legit by targeting me for the kill.

Lets finish the claims tho, and then my suggestion would be for mollie to split the list of remaining players excl fate evenly between the cops so no duplicate investigation could happen. Each cop then chooses someone from his list to investigate.

Sound good?

Buldermar, you a N2 cop? SE Asians, are you a N2 cop?

Based on hints these 2 both made earlier, I'm guessing no, so Mollie, get that list ready. I'll even get it started for you...

IAI pool: Kuror, ? ? ? ?

Kuror pool: IAI ? ? ? ?

don't investigate each other and don't do the pool ****

nah, the pool crap is good. as long as pirate does a good job putting some scummy players tied to fate in each pool, we avoid accidently investigating the same player. I want a confirmed player D3!

don't investigate each other
otherwise, we can have a... INVESTIGATIONS DRAFT

1. Nachomamma8
2. Remembrance
3. mantisdreamz
4. buldermar
5. Rubicon
6. pirate mollie
9. SE-Asians (Lincolm + SorasAdvent + thenewearth Hydra)
11. Human Destroyer

(or you could just investigate one of the first 4, kuror0 one of the second 4)

Pff I did my pool before it was an idea. Leaving IaI aside I will either investigate Nacho, Mantis or Remem. So IaI can choose freely among the other players.

I think SE are not a N2 cop so the only one missing to claim is HD.

[I Am Innocent]

The way Remembrance came in early D3 with a "why did Nacho die, hmmm, I'll do an analysis to figure out why" post. And who got painted the nicest in this picture....Kuror and Remembrance.

2740 also has some good information. Who was the first person to do an iso analysis of Nacho? Remembrance...

What were the results of this D2 iso in Remembrance's words:

"He suspected me then sort of changed his mind, telling Kuror0 he thought all four of the people in his pool were town." (remembrance looks good in the end)

"I think ending the day suspecting, Rubicon, HD, and Bulder at death. But his larger pool was me, Rubi, HD, Kuror0 and Bulder." (interesting who is on the 2nd list but not the first)

"He had a special town read on Kuror0, but then suspected Kuror0 was a scum team with Rubicon. And also felt he lurked this day (Kuror0 can, and probably should explain why)." (interesting this this was the only bullet where he asked a living player to explain why....how would a living player know what Nacho was thinking.....or maybe this was just to give a teammate time to minimize suspicion on himself: he "can....explain why", how the heck do you know he can explain why???)

All other bullets were on just the other players.

[I Am Innocent]

Terrible reason for voting me. Giving himself an out when I would have flipped town by saying it was so "we can have a very calm, very well reasoned and non-tunneling mylo"...

Not once there did he accuse me of being scum.

VOTE: IaI

The business end: If Jon is town, and he dies you'll vote me(This is assuming you are town) and lose. Since you have now declared you will be doing this, I can't let that happen. Change your position if you're town. I've read all of what you have said. Now go back and Iso me and iso the many people who have flipped town that have argued that I am town. Or you can die and we can have a very calm, very well reasoned and non-tunneling mylo, if you're town.

[I Am Innocent]

D4 starts by me saying if Kuror flips scum, the cop should investigate Remembrance.

Remembrance has a fit with the conclusion that jon should investigate who he feels is scum.

Like let me go further on this reasoning IaI.

Let's start with a proposition where you're town, I'm town and Jon's town, If you tell Jon to investigate me and he is town and you're town they are going to kill Jon or I because he would confirm me as town and erase your suspicion of my slot if you're town.

Scenario 1: I get nked: they would use my death to create more suspicions on his slot leading him to get lynched tomorrow. The reason being is that just because he announces he will investigate me is not a guarantee he will. If he investigates someone else and finds them to be scum, they risk losing since the rest of the town would be motivated to go back through their whole iso to confirm the veracity of this fact. Which is why I don't want to lynch that probable scum slot. He could very well investigate anyone else, so if he is town he will die tonight.

Scenario 2 (More likely if he's town): Jon get's nked. Or, Jon dies and your conf. bias kill me assuming I am scum that nked him and the scum team hammer for the win.

This second all town scenario, is generally, why I am willing to kill you today if I have to, because even if you're not scum you're going to lose this game which I have tried very hard to win. Because you're simply a liability if you're town. I can't trust you to pick right in Lylo. It's painfully obvious you're tunneling and ignoring the huge amount of arguments made to the contrary if you're town. Even this argument you're going to ignore, I've dealt with this too much.

Second set of propositions: I'm town, you're town and he's scum (he's probably scum) then he would either claim a guilty on me so that you would vote and they would hammer for the win using your conf. bias as a spring board. Or they would nk me. There's not really any advantage to confirming me as town when you're reading me as scum if you're town.

Now, why is Jon voting with you, IaI. For one, the last thing he should want is to end this day early given that he is going to die tonight if he is town. This uncharacteristic willingness to lynch Kuror0 right away is not in the town's or his best interests if he wants to contribute to the town he should think about it.

Pedit: I don't think it matters who you want to investigate if you're town Jon. Just investigate who you think is scum. I know I'm not and I also know that there is enough evidence to come to this conclusion in my iso. It's a waste to investigate me for that reason. Personally, I am almost completely sure you are scum because Rubicon lied to my face (metaphorically speaking).

Yet here he contradicts his earlier view by suggesting who should be investigated:

Also, I'd like IaI or Se-asians to be investigated Jon.
if only because this is Kuror's death post.
Good luck with your semester Kuror0.

Lastly, his votes D4 were Jon, me, Jon, me, and then Kuror. Looks like scum trying everything until a bus felt in order.

[I Am Innocent]

Here are the top suspect list, I believe in the order they were submitted:

kuror - Rubicon & Mantis
bulder - Rubicon & Kuror
HD - SE Asians & Remembrance
Remembrance - Rubicon & HD
Rubicon - Bulder & HD & Mantis
Mantis - HD & Kuror & Rubicon
Mollie - Rubicon & Kuror
IAI - Kuror & Remembrance
SE Asians - IAI & HD

The 3 people that suspected HD prior to my reveal were Remembrance, Rubicon, and Mantis

I am willing to bet at least 1 scum in here.

One (at least) of Rubicon and Remembrance are scum.

And this too...

Remembrance had HD in his top 2 prior to my investigation reveal, the last living player to do so. As someone who debated hard night 2 on who was the better investigation target (HD or rubicon), I know how easy HD would have been as mislynch material, so I strongly believe at least 1 of the 2 scum had him on his list (and now we know one, kuror, did not)

[I Am Innocent]

@IaI, if I'm not scum who is scum and why? I'm not scum, so it's worth you thinking it over. Similar question to anyone else that considers voting me.

I'm pretty sure I know who it is if it is not you.

Question to you. If you are town and the lynch candidate today, you know this game goes into D6.

What do you think is best for town, that Mollie is guaranteed to be alive D6 or that we possibly have a no kill N5?

Also, what do you think is better for town, that scum know who the backup targets are, or are kept more in the dark.

I have already expressed that I think it is better to have Mollie alive D6 (if we get to that point) than anything else. And if I am wrong about you, I don't think I want the scum in {Asians, Bulder} knowing who I am leaning towards. I did this once, where I kept the scum in the dark when town was up 4-1, and I ended up being the NK cause scum wanted to keep around the players he thought he knew where they were leaning (he ended up being wrong and town won). Had I not been the NK that game, I would have picked wrong (had that scum marked as town).

Long story short, not sure I want to tip my hand in case I am wrong about you. Still you must admit, Kuror insisting on keeping you on his investigation list despite you being very town to him + your cold feet unvote of Fate which derailed his wagon is the most condemning evidence we have, is it not?

Assuming you are being honest that you are town, who do you think is scum and why? You are asking player x to tell you why player y is town, I don't like that. Here's your chance, sell me on D6 if I am truly wrong about you or sell others on why Player x, y, or z is the better lynch day 5 than yourself.

[I Am Innocent]

Here is the said game http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... &start=575

[I Am Innocent]

IaI's plan is ideal, but it fails in practical application. I'm not going to elaborate.

How so? There is a mafia goon who cannot interfere with a doc protection.

We have mollie who everyone feels is town, or so much that three people have already stated they find her town/won't vote for her.

The other 4 players do not trust each other to different levels of degrees.

Regardless of a doc protection or not, we have 2 lynches to nail one scum.

If there is a NK not named mollie, you got a 3/4 shot (NK + 2 lynches) of nailing scum assuming we are all right that mollie is not scum (the NK gets rid of one of the players the others don't trust to some degree).

MyLo (3 town 1 scum) and LyLo (2 town, 1 scum), I think I'd prefer LyLo if one of the of the 3 is Mollie, wouldn't you?

[I Am Innocent]

Please reassess you've played Mafia for 2 years. You should know what town looks like by now.

Mollie saving my neck when multiple players were ready to lynch me by the end of the day. Following a claim on D2 that gave us a scum on a platter? Does that look like town?

SE Asians attacking kuror the whole day, and refusing to hop on jon with me. Someone on the Fate wagon D1 that did not hop off at L-2. Does that look like town?

2 of 4 nights where scum left cops alone, and 2 nights where cops were killed. The difference, there were no known docs N3 or N4. N1 had nacho, N2 allegedly had Bulder, who was in my scum pool. If Bulder is the last scum, why not kill me (scum have already shown a propensity to want cops dead before investigations are produced) and say he protected his teammate instead? Another player on the Fate wagon D1 that did not hop off at L-2. Does that look like town?

Funniest part is how your opening post agrees with all this, and includes me too:

The problem being, Is that I was pretty convinced yesterday that they were all town. That is literally it.

...but let me reassess...

[I Am Innocent]

Need something definite.

@Buldermar, can you tell me about those town slips you found on Se-Asians. Quote, reasoning, everything?
IaI made a pretty good case for town you.

Remembrance, this is what I was talking about with regards to player x explaining why player y is town.

[I Am Innocent]

but my point still stands

Posh has scarred you for life, hasn't it??? Lol.

Would it help if I traded my being lynched/falling on the sword D5 for SE Asians guaranteeing you protection N5? Can you guarantee me a win once the IAI paranoia is gone, cause the remaining two are just going to vote each other and you are going to decide this game...

[I Am Innocent]

PS - Cause that is how much I believe that is the right move strategically (killing 3 of the 4 players total that the 5 players are willing to vote out...)

[I Am Innocent]

Remembrance can u give me a post # when I was at L-1 and u were not on my wagon? I don't recall that ever happening...

[I Am Innocent]

@IaI, post 3467

Meh, at that pt it was 3-3 and right after Mollie expressed her intent to hammer Kuror. If scum remembrance switches at this pt, I flip town, Kuror goes today, and it is basically 1 vs 1 with u and Bulder, with the pressure leaning on you because of the last minute switch.

So no, I don't give you town pts for not switching with the deadline hrs away from happening.

[I Am Innocent]

And I'm not blind. It was quite clear Buldermar favored voting you over voting Kuror0. I didn't need to jump back and forth.

This on the other hand, may have some merit. I will go reread, but letting the cat out of the bag, Bulder is the only other player that I think can be scum at this pt.

[I Am Innocent]

why do we have SE as town again?

He had the chance to take out the cop with me and Remembrance:

Willing to switch to Jon if Asians/Remembrance are game, or Kuror if Jon/Bulder are game. Otherwise, adios!

PS - And I <3 you too Mollie...still glad I signed up as frustrating as most of these players were.

But refused and decided to stay on Kuror. That would have been one heck of a bus...

Factor in the connections between Bacde and Asians early in the game, I am pretty positive Asians is town.

Why would he know that?

He knows the number of roles, but not who has them unless he read your claim. For example, he assumed you were a cop. Instead of a doc and that someone must have fake claimed. But where does that assumption come from?

I don't know why he assumed me as cop also. The mafias know how many cops and docs. The last who claiming role (not claim night) sequentially is Rubicon, Mantis, and the last is me.

Let's say Rubicon's slot is scum, so he was fake claiming. So Mantis and I are the last who claim, but Mantis lynched in D3 and flipped as doc, so Jon knows what is my role even though I didn't claim. Other side, town still need my confirmation, and Jon did this.

I couldn't say that this is legit read, because if mafias realize this, then he gain a lot of towncreed in my view. Yeah, WIFOM...

I don't think mafias would fake claimed doc... But for stabilize the role, example if setup is 5 docs - 5 cops, someone of the mafias need to do this.

I really wanted someone said, "are you fake-claiming?" or anything like this in day 3 ... You know, I like fake-claiming. *sigh*

=

What is Jon's role? Oh, Hunter S. Thompson

Don't bother about investigate, not going to help. And what you did just make me paranoid.

=

Sorry IaI, I'm stick with my choice. Kuroro is the best choice

.

I don't think Buldermar + Jon are make sense. I strike this possibility. After Jon replaced in, he did buddying with Buldermar, I think this doesn't make sense as mafia + mafia.

By the way IaI, where is Buldermar + Kuroro, Buldermar + Remembrance, and Jon + Remembrance possibility?

=

IaI didn't do anything slip. When IaI asked Rubicon to claim, Rubicon in L-1. Time to claim, right?

=

I was frustrated... Any way, I think IaI's post make sense. His logic about the night kill are pretty good. Too good as scum.

Yes, I withdraw my accusation because I was wrong.

=

P-Edit : Bold text.

[I Am Innocent]

Entirety. Exams can't be helped. I went V/LA for the same reason earlier in the last game day.

This reminded me of something:

I imagine Kuror0 is ridiculously busy. The number of players who have announced they are taking tests and projects is very high. I went V/LA for the same reason (it's the first time I've ever announced a V/LA). He's still likely scum if you're telling the truth about being town IaI. I really hope you are.

What made you think Kuror was ridiculously busy? Was there something in thread? If so, can you reference it for me?

[I Am Innocent]

Why the hell I get feeling IaI bussing his partner whole day 4 now

Don't forget D3 too.

So plan going in to D3 was wait until HD claimed cop, then try to protect him by keeping two other players roles in the dark (Mantis and Rubicon, a doc and cop) which if followed, would have put doubt in the minds of scum if HD could have been protected that night or not.

As part of that, I say that these three players should not be lynched D3 (3 confirmed town) now, putting both scum on the chopping block with only 4 other town, one of which is nearly confirmed town mollie.

And then I bus the heck out of my partner D3, D4, etc...

All this rather than lay low, pick a different target to clear than the claimed cop, allow mantis and rubicon to get heat and have to claim, not bus my partner starting D3, etc?

[I Am Innocent]

I almost want to move my vote back to IaI

Go for it. You still have a 50/50 chance in LyLo between bulder and remembrance.

To Asians and Mollie, what does scum need right now? Two mislynches. Why is that? Because Kuror was lynched over the cop D4 and me.

So what is scum going to do going into D5? Maybe get a feel for where every one stands? Try not to make too many enemies? Look at Remembrance's and Bulders play and you'll realize if you can get over your paranoia about me that this game is in the bag. Their play (not mine) emulates this. They also in past days held out as long as possible (or in Bulder's case, forever) from lynching Kuror.

Seriously, just iso those 2 and myself on just D5 and look who is waffling and who is voting. Get over the paranoia, and realize we have two dead scum because 1) Mollie got a guilty on Fate and 2) because I attacked Kuror ever since D3 and basically went 1 vs 1 on him D4, and because Asians backed me up and didn't go to Jon with me.

3 guaranteed town right there with 2 lynches to go. If you can get over your paranoia, we will win.

PS - Remembrance and Bulder, in your next post, I want you two to stop waffling and to rank the players from scummiest to towniest. I will do likewise:

Remembrance
Bulder
Asians
Mollie

Asians, Mollie, from this point forward I do not want you doing this. Scum should not be tipped off where you are leaning D6 if they get that far...

If Asians or Mollie are somehow scum, I will personally take this loss on myself and nom that player for a scummy.

[I Am Innocent]

you can probably look at my wiki page and figure that one out. so why would anybody want me around? I mean I wouldn't want me around if I were town. his position feels manipulative but his resignation on the previous day sounded genuine.

You know how many wiki pages I have looked on this site? One. MagnaOfIllusion, cause I wanted to see if he gave me credit in his wiki for Kunkstar's Cyclic Experiment. MOI had a great plan, but he was NK'd D1 and I basically took it to a fairly easy win.

Mollie, I want you in LyLo because you are as confirmed town as we have. If we mislynch D6 and you are in LyLo, we got a random 50/50 chance at a win. You are not there, we have a random 33/67 chance at a win.

The key to LyLo is that neither town will vote for the other town. If you are town and you are there, it is VERY likely that the other town will not vote for you. That is half the battle. The other half is you picking right. And despite what your wiki page may or may not say about your LyLo record, I know you're a great scumhunter. You nailed Fate N1 and you read the Kuror vs IAI battle D4 correctly.

So in all sincerity, that is where I was coming from with why you should be in LyLo, and why it should be declared by Asians that he will be protecting you. No buddying up, it wasn't needed. You were going into N4 telling Bulder how town I was. Remember that? So just like D3 when nobody suspected me but scum Kuror was saying I needed town cred in protecting HD/Mantis/Rubicon, and I called it bologna? Same thing with scum IAI not needing to buddy you D5 because you already saw me as town. Truth is I am town and pushing the best strategy we have, just like I did with the Kuror/IAI lists D2 (which got ignored) and pushing Nacho's plan over the counter ones D1/D2 (which also got ignored D1)...

[I Am Innocent]

"what does scum need right now? Two mislynches."

Really? Asking what scum needs followed up by me telling you what scum needs makes me scum? Please...

Did you even read the rest of my post? Did you read those 3 D5 player iso's....they can't take long.

Favor, please unvote me for now. If I can't get the two players that I refuse to vote for today to not vote for me (you and Asians), I am going to be the lynch today. Which is a good thing because if we lynch town (mislynch...) today, one of you two are going to have to vote out the last player, and I don't want to be there with either of you if you think strongly I am scum.

Still, we need those lists from Remembrance and Bulder. Plus I would like to have a few parting suggestions before I am lynched regarding N5/D6. So once again, please unvote me for now.

*************

@Remembrance, why did you not provide a list after I asked for one? Why do you continue to stall? I would like you to submit yours before Bulder does his. Next post please.

As for your question, I have not reread D4 to see your motives vs Bulder's motives. I have in fact been busy.

Still the fact you are the only remaining living player who had easy target HD (a scummy player going into N2/D3 who defended Bacde/Fate hard D1) on his Top 2 list prior to my investigation reveal + Kuror continuing to keep you on his investigation list when he would have had a chance to switch things up based on Nacho's and my suggestions + the fact I survived N2, which if Bulder was scum (he was on my list), he could have fake protected Kuror and took me out all points to you being the last scum.

So my vote stands.

[I Am Innocent]

Still, we need those lists from Remembrance and Bulder.

I feel like you're trying to set yourself up to push me and call it scummy that I don't have any elaborate list ready knowing that I've been busy with exams, which could only be scum motivated. Could also be that you really just want a list, but it does stand out to me how you were trying to paint me as waffling when I've been quite explicit about the fact that I wanted you lynched yesterday for what I considered a scum slip.

"but it does stand out to me how you were trying to paint me as waffling" The deadline is in 24 hrs and you are the 1) only player not to cast a vote today or 2) make a definitive stance on where you are leaning.

If that's not waffling, I don't know what is.

*********************

Here are my thoughts:

Mollie - Scum investigation on Fate N1/D2, killed my wagon in a critical D4, and then after bulder voted me to make the count 3-3 vs kuror, she followed thru on her hammer of Kuror. That would be two busses, which is totally crazy scum play. Odds of scum are very slim.

SE Asians - Bacde/Fate attacked him to no end D1. D4 he was adamant about being on Kuror's wagon, unshakeable, immovable. When I offered to hop on jon's wagon with him and Remembrance, he did not. That puts his odds at very unlikely to be scum. His vote of me when he was so adamant I was town D4 is off, as was his replace out. But still I think it very unlikely he is scum.

Bulder - had a gut read on him early in the game. Should be noted that his revised plan outted the docs, which is worse than Nacho's plan. Could it have been scum pushing a counter plan to weaken town's chances of getting investigations in? Possibly, though I think scum would be better off following a weaker plan than being the one to draw attention by suggesting it in the first place. N3 is also positive pts in Bulders favor, because he had the chance to knock me off and say he protected Kuror. After all, he was one of the 4 people in my list... His play D4 was very suspect, positives for being adamant about not going after jon but forcing it to me vs kuror. But at one pt when jon started to get some heat/votes, I suggested to him that he follow thru with that by hopping on kuror along with jon, but he never did. Then after Mollie declared the hammer on kuror (one of the two people he wanted dead D4 instead of jon), he voted me to make it 3-3. Last ditch effort to save his companion? The other positive for Bulder is that he had multiple opportunities (early 130 pages) to hammer me but did not. He did state his intent to hammer me later, but thank goodness Mollie unvoted me which seemed to unravel everything. Then there is D5....plays the perfect scum game. See where everyone is leaning (which is Asians and Mollie likely town), then wants to see my accusations against Kuror/Remembrance being scum together.....accusations I had been making since D3!!!! If Bulder is scum, he can follow that plan either way. (If I go first, then he can use the plan to get Remembrance D6, if Remembrance went first and flipped town, well IAI orchestrated it). Very dangerous.

Remembrance. Killed the Fate wagon D1 by unvoting at L-2 after Fate claimed, was on Kuror's list despite screaming town to him, and had HD on his list as a suspect D3. Evidence pts to him being the last scum. He seems very concerned about dying, trying to win me over D5 on why he is town as opposed to trying to prove who is scum. Up until that last post. Not going to lie, based on that last post alone, my gut would say town. I understand why Mollie unvoted. But still, I can't get over the evidence. I know you think it is tunneling, but hey, didn't tunneling get us kuror. I did not let up d3 and especially D4. Look at every vote count D4 and see where my vote is.

With Asians skipping out and no deadline extension apparently,

I think Mollie, that you have to make the call who is today's lynch

. Bulder, Remembrance, and/or I should be the two other votes to ensure the lynch happens. I'd ask you to skim D4 one more time before you do so, and then allow enough time for the lynched player to say any remarks they have before ending this day.

[I Am Innocent]

Remem, what bothers you about that post or string of posts?

[I Am Innocent]

HOLY carps... I just finished reading the whole game and omg my head hurts.

First about Nacho's plan, at first sight looks good, I will re read the whole set up to make sure there is not a huge catch.

Wisdom and HD looks town to me.

Remember is giving me a pain in the ass. I really don't share most of his actions but i learned the hard way he can be town even playing like that.

SE-Asians is a huge anti-town player. Some of you have excused him saying that it is his normal meta but I seriously don't see anything helpful coming from him so far, so he is my best bet for a lynch today so far, we either get scum or a town playing against his wincon.

Those were the things at the top of my head, from now on my activity should be more regular and stuff. Now to rest a little.

first post and comes in with a weakass push on SE-Asians without a vote to back it up and a ridiculously fency read on Remembrance

It was not a push on him, I wanted to be clear that he is the best lynch option imo for now. I am not voting anybody yet, because now that i am here i want to see things as they come and timing is quite important for me, i would probably have much better reads if i read things as they were happening and not the whole 24 pages all of a sudden. So now is the time to get better reads and there is no need to put down my vote.

About the fency read on Remem.. well yeah, that's how it is for now, it is not something i can help. He does stuff I don't like at all, like sheeping too much and weird changes on his reads and does a lot of AtE but this is the 3rd game I have with him and I have seen him do exactly this as town, so that's why i have a conflicted read. For now i am giving him a slack and the benefit of doubt, but it is only matter of time before can get a solid read on him.

Early kuror posts...HD calls him out for a fency read on remembrance (i'd have to agree...)

[I Am Innocent]

Huh so I'm not a N1 PR. There are already 3 N1 PR. If anyone is fake claiming it is more likely to be the first ones, so ye Remember is most likely town.

There are 8 people(counting myself) who already claimed if they were or not N1 PR, we have 2 inactives, which leaves 3 people missing to claim if i am counting right. Please correct me if needed.

Quick to give Remember town pts for being the 3rd N1 PR to claim.

Remembrance (L-1): I Am Innocent, pirate mollie
I Am Innocent (L-2): SE-Asians
buldermar (L-2): Remembrance

Not Voting: buldermar

With 5 alive, it takes 3 to lynch.
Deadline is on Sunday, June 16th at 8:00 PM EST.

[I Am Innocent]

Ok so here is what i got so far:

Wisdom: Town. He is always trying to put logic behind every of his actions, while I don't agree with some of the stuff he says or do it is still clear to me where he is coming from, which is a very towny thing imo.

Bulde: Town. Pretty much the same as wisdom. He has always shown the logic behind his actions and has been asking a couple of good questions.

Remem: Leaning town. I really dislike some of the stuff he does, it throws me off really hard as i said before but, due to being the 3rd N1PR claim and that his latest stuff is not so shady i am going to put him here.

HD: Leaning town. I had him as a town read on my catch up but since then he hasn't done anything to strengthen that early read i will put him here.

Nacho: Null. Oh, boy. I have some real hard time deciding what to believe about nacho and have decided that I can't put him anywhere but null until more info has been provided. His plan is good but due to his previous game in the same format got me thinking a lot. First option is that Town-Nacho want to use the same plan that defeated him to win this game which is why he suggested it and etc. The second option is that maybe Scum-Nacho somewhere along his previous game, noticed there was a chance to break this strategy but it may have been too late in the game, so this time he can suggest the plan to get some easy towncred and try out a gambit to break the strategy. I may be being too paranoid but he claiming a N1 PR really got me nervous. So for now I will have Nacho sit here on my null space.

Mantiz: Slightly scum. Am I the only one surprised on so many town calls already to someone who just came in? That's a bit scary and weird. Also the soft suggestion on wisdom to vote the only remaining inactive out of 13 people is scummy.

IAI: Leaning scum. I want him to finish his catch up before jumping on him but so far seems like only an instigator watching if someone bites his accusations.

SE-Asians: Scum. Haven't done anything to move him from there since my initial scum read. I still can't see a good reason why a town would want to fakeclaim... twice, even if it indeed was sarcasm the timing was horrible. Also as i said before his overall game has been very anti town.

VOTE: SE-Asians

So those are my read for now, I'm sorry I left some people out but I haven't managed to get a hold on their slots so I rather take a little more time to develop those reads, also I am not used to this size of games so it is a little harder to keep track of everybody.

Interesting the Bacde/Fate is not on here.

Scum reads on me and Asians, Town reads on Bulder and Remembrance.

[I Am Innocent]

Thoughts on my large string of posts and recent accusations IaI?

Basically sounds like you think Bulder may be trying to set us up. I share those concerns to a degree. Like I said earlier, if I am wrong about you, he is almost assuredly the last scum and will run with that accusation that I was the one behind getting you lynched all the way to the win.

I still can't see how anyone who reads D4 though could think Mollie, Asians, or I are scum. When I saw Jon was the NK last night, I jumped for joy and said this game is in the bag. Can't believe Asians and Mollie, who both strongly defended me D4, all of sudden vote me despite the guy I pushed D4 flipping scum! How did his flip cause anything but even more surety to Asians and Mollie that I am indeed town is beyond me.

Regardless of what happens, we'll have lots to chat about postgame. I will have some apologies for some players on the way I acted, and some serious recommendations for some players on how to improve their play. Curious to see how this all plays out and if I was indeed right about you and Kuror as far back as D3.

[I Am Innocent]

I'll go for that asians guy based on the quote

Vote: SE-Asians

Saved me 40 pages thanks

So you replace and will just sheep the first bw you see to avoid any reading? You won't develop any read by your own or what's the idea behind this?

interesting, confirmed scum coaching

followed shortly thereafter by possible more scum coaching:

Because he gave up and it pisses me off. That is the only reason I am tempted to.

Your first post doesn't reflect why you were tempted to. If that's really your only reason try to be more clear next time because at least, I perceived it as a lot of flip floping.

[I Am Innocent]

I want to know. Why you asked for that list.

The list from towniest to scummiest (or vice versa, I can't remember)?

The underlined was why.

PS - Remembrance and Bulder, in your next post,

I want you two to stop waffling

and to rank the players from scummiest to towniest. I will do likewise:

Remembrance
Bulder
Asians
Mollie

Asians, Mollie, from this point forward I do not want you doing this. Scum should not be tipped off where you are leaning D6 if they get that far...

If Asians or Mollie are somehow scum, I will personally take this loss on myself and nom that player for a scummy.

At this point, I knew Asians and Mollie were not going to be lynched (I myself would never vote them and I spilled the beans on my Asians read when I saw Mollie worried about that slot).

So since it was just us, I wanted each player not named Asians/Mollie to commit. I picked you 1st since I had a bigger scum read on you than Bulder.

Answer you question?

[I Am Innocent]

Pretty sure I already had this discussion with a different player.

Well that was before Kuror flipped and we could start piecing the connections together...

Do you agree that Kuror was scum coaching Fate in that post I quoted?

So when you do admit so, would you also agree that it is possible Kuror would scum coach his other partner if he saw him doing something that might get him suspected?

[I Am Innocent]

I thought it was because you were worried about Buldermar. I mentioned this speculation in an earlier post.

I listed my suspects in order of scumminess in that same post I asked you and Bulder for the lists. I had you as scummier, so why would I ask Bulder to go before you?

[I Am Innocent]

Is there anyway I can convince you to lynch Buldermar today and try to lynch me tomorrow (if there is one)? I don't have confidence you can pull off that particular lynch in mylo/lylo.

I don't know IaI, this is the first time I've encountered scum Kuror0.

I agree that if you are the lynch today and you flip town, I will likely be lynched tomorrow. I would be okay if Bulder is the lynch today...but with Asians flaking and his vote on me, you need to get Mollie on board too.

Basically this close to the deadline, I think whoever Mollie shoots for is who is going to get lynched (the one exception is if you and Bulder team up on me since that is where Asians left his vote...)

Mollie, your thoughts?

[I Am Innocent]

Rather, #2.

I hear you and I actually agree with this. My favorite LyLo (actually MyLo) games (Newbie 1061) was when I went toe to toe against one of the loudest most obnoxious players on this site (RayFrost, I love ya!!!)....but when I realized he had to be the final scum I dug and dug and found the condemning evidence until everyone voted with me and we won.

[I Am Innocent]

Bulder, come out come out wherever you are...

[I Am Innocent]

taking a break to put the kids to bed while my wife comes home from the hospital...(major contractions the last 2 days despite being over 6 weeks from her due date!!!)

[I Am Innocent]

"So you replace and will just sheep the first bw you see to avoid any reading? You won't develop any read by your own or what's the idea behind this?"

I read this as Kuror chastising Fate and coaching him on some things that are giving him away.

"Your first post doesn't reflect why you were tempted to. If that's really your only reason try to be more clear next time because at least, I perceived it as a lot of flip floping."

This was less than 70 posts later and could be more scum coaching, this time to Remembrance (stop flip flopping so much)

Nothing to do with SE Asians....comprehendo?

[I Am Innocent]

"cos no one ever hardbusses in order to ensure a scum win"

None of those 3 players needed to hardbus when they did tho

1) You have had no suspicion since your N1/D2 result of Fate, so if you are the last scum, no need to throw your partner under the bus and save me.

2) Same thing with Asians, he has had little suspicion since Fate flipped (those 2 were obviously not teammates based on D1), so he had no reason to push Kuror as hard as he did D4 instead of the cop or me...

3) Then there is me, of the first 7 players who produced a top 2 list beginning of D3 (all but me and asians), not one player suspected me. So why would I have had a need of superbussing my partner starting on D3 (& then continuing D4)....answer: none whatsoever.

That is the point. There are times to bus a partner, when they make a mistake, when you need some town cred, but none of the 3 of us fit that bill. That is why this should be an auto win if everyone takes a step back and just thinks of this logically. Game set match.

[I Am Innocent]

I'm going to suspect that Bulder had some computer problems last night. Want to hear from him first before we make this the final decision.

[I Am Innocent]

Do you realise we just claim PR? What cops are you talking about?

I mean I like Nacho's original suggestion.

My thoughts are as follows:

Cops investigate, and then claim next day. No discussion about that.

Docs have two jobs, try to successfully protect, and stay silent. Why stay silent, because I'd rather have a N2 Doc get killed N3 than a N3 or N4 or N5 cop. And if a N2 Doc outs himself D2, that ain't gonna happen.

Going forward, Docs don't claim.

SE-Asians (L-4): I Am Innocent, Human Destroyer, kuror0
buldermar (L-6): SE-Asians
borkjerfkin (L-6): pirate mollie
Wisdom (L-3): Nachomamma8, buldermar, borkjerfkin, Fate
Fate (L-4): mantisdreamz, Remembrance, Wisdom

Not Voting: AngelusW

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.
Deadline is April 13th at 9:30 PM EST

For bulder

[I Am Innocent]

Alright, and how was my strategy inferior?

It is of my opinion that:

Docs have two jobs, try to successfully protect, and stay silent. Why stay silent, because I'd rather have a N2 Doc get killed N3 than a N3 or N4 or N5 cop. And if a N2 Doc outs himself D2, that ain't gonna happen.

Your method only focuses on the 1st part of that (successfully protect), not the second (stay silent).

By staying silent, it 1) keeps the pool of remaining unknown player roles larger later in the game which in essence helps keep future cops hidden, and 2) the scum will never know what night a doc has his protection so they will always have to decide whether or not to risk shooting a known cop that night or going after the pool of unknowns.

For example, at least one of you and Remembrance are legit doctors. Scum knew that person's powers were gone by N3, N4 etc. So they didn't have to worry about you or him protecting HD or Jon, they just killed away. Imagine if they did not know that power was expended....then it would have made the decision on who to kill the last two nights that much more difficult.

*****************

Mollie, what say you?

[I Am Innocent]

Mollie, since your alt unvote did not count, it looks like the voting is:

Remembrance (L-1): I Am Innocent, buldermar
I Am Innocent (L-2): SE-Asians
buldermar (L-1): Remembrance, pirate mollie

If you are insistent on bulder, let me know and I'll switch my vote. If you think Remembrance is the best bet, all you have to do is switch your vote. If you still think I'm the best bet, I'm sure one of Remembrance and bulder will follow you.

***************

If a D6 is needed, and we are at MyLo, (Asians protection goes through or scum decide not to NK,) then there is no concern of one mistaken vote ending the game quickly. Still, I would suggest Mollie to be the last vote that day.

If it is LyLo, Mollie should once again be the last vote that day. If both other players insist they feel Mollie is town, then those other 2 players should vote each other, and if Mollie does not quick vote one of then, she is confirmed town and both players can build their cases for Mollie to choose from.

[I Am Innocent]

I will continue to be checking in to see if Mollie makes an appearance. Deadline now in less than 2 hrs.

I could hammer bulder, and while I am totally fine with that as he is my #2 target, it feels very cheap as Mollie's intent was to unvote him in her last post. So I very much would like it if she came in and gave her thoughts and picked which of the 3 she thinks should be lynched.

[I Am Innocent]

If this does go to N5 like Remembrance is promising, this list is for the replacement:

List:

Bulder>IaI>>>Se-Asians. > Mollie.

In other words,

PROTECT MOLLIE

! You cannot protect yourself, I do not want protection. Chances are if you are town, there is little chance the scum will want to take a replacement player with unknown reads with them to MyLo/LyLo, so you will most likely be the target.

Don't care if this looks like posturing, I want this done right. No excuses for any replacement not to protect the player everyone else feels is most likely town.

[I Am Innocent]

VOTE: IaI

Mollie, swear I am town, so at least unvote for 2 or 3 days. I will keep my case small and brief. If your gut still says me, well then, oh well. But don't let Bulder win it this easily...

And if your scum, I'll make it easy it for you.

vote Buldermar

First point, we have two scum dead. Which of the living players (two of them) helped killed them and which did nothing to get either?

[I Am Innocent]

I will continue to be checking in to see if Mollie makes an appearance. Deadline now in less than 2 hrs.

I could hammer bulder, and while I am totally fine with that as he is my #2 target, it feels very cheap as Mollie's intent was to unvote him in her last post. So I very much would like it if she came in and gave her thoughts and picked which of the 3 she thinks should be lynched.

Point two. Why would scum not hammer bulder here, and "save" the player for LyLo they have been making a case on in conjunction with scum Kuror since D3? With deadline less than 2 hrs, no explanation would have been needed.

It would have 100% absolutely been the best move for scum IAI...

Answer: Because I am not scum, and Remembrance was my #1 read due to all the connections to Kuror.

[I Am Innocent]

good game bulder

Sorry to anyone I offended too. I felt most bad about Kuror, and the post where I called him Moron like 8 times. Hope you forgive me man...

Mollie, your paranoia got to you. You went back and forth on me the whole game....I wish you could see the difference I played in this game vs the last. Even bork picked up on that D1.

Remem, sorry, the HD being on your suspect list (still shocked neither bulder or kuror put him on there) + jumping off the fate wagon when you did + being on kuror's investigation list was too much too ignore. You were totally right D5 that I had a better chance of getting bulder first, and then going after you D6 had he flipped town. But "better chance" with mollie being in LyLo meant still a little chance at all. I believe strongly I had one shot with her, and I chose evidence over gut (your posts were VERY townie D5...sorry, just couldn't get off that evidence). Sorry all.

Asians, great job sticking with your guns D4 when we nailed Kuror. I almost jumped to Jon, had you come with me that would have really messed things up. You staying on Kuror gave me a near confirmed town read on you and kept us in the game as we nailed scum because of it.

Nacho great plan D1. Curious to know now if Bulder intentionally went with a lesser plan, or if he still believes his plan was as solid (trying to gain town cred). I strongly opine that the best course of action is that all docs stay hidden even after there powers are used.

Bulder, you played the apathetic, coasting game that always fools me. I need to do a better job weeding players like you out (Kuror had me fooled too until he said Nacho was his investigation target).

Thanks Majiffy for modding. And Booooooooooooooooooo to Thor for never ending up playing. Love playing with that guy.