NG 1479: Somebody's Gonna Die! (OVER!)

[Mr. Flay]

First Vote Count of Day Three:

Not Voting - goodmorning, HighShroomish, jon_h61, Matti, VictorDeAngelo

With five alive, it will take just three votes to lynch.

[goodmorning]

Maybe I'm reading too much into it because I'm annoyed.

If

you're Town, and you're scum reading me because you're annoyed at me, I ask you to take another look and see if you think I'm trying to out scum or not. The warm fuzzy feelings will come when we lynch scum.

I have issues with that one particular phrase perhaps because of annoyance. My read on you is much much more than that.

Plus I'd really like the others to show up so there can be some interactions with them.

Yeah, I'm going to be sliding back posting and working more on reading for this reason.

[jon_h61]

After a re-reread, I'll apologize in advance if I'm wrong, sorry gm, but I think I'm convinced that gm's slot is scum.

I'll stand by that, and I'm ready to back it up with a vote. First I want to hear what everyone thinks.

I guess I'm calling for a 1v1 with gm. We have to lynch her or we lose! That's where I stand! (insert smiley crossing his fingers)

We'll see.

[goodmorning]

You already know what everyone else thinks. You wouldn't be calling for a 1v1 if you didn't think you could win it.

And I can't even be properly disappointed in you because it's good strategy.

[jon_h61]

The truth is I think you have to die for Town to win, and I'm asking town to step up, if they think I'm right. I've lost enough to know anything can happen. Like me being wrong. I've been wrong several times lately.

Titus, neil, etc...

But I've been right too.

Everyone needs to speak up.

[HighShroomish]

Matti, I'm waiting.

[jon_h61]

@ gm I can point you to a game where at the last minute, in LYLO I changed my mind, and hung scum. Forget about me, who else is scum? I want your opinion because if you're Town, who might be on the block soon, you should be trying to point me to the true scum.

pedit me too.

[goodmorning]

He followed up mine. He said, basically, IDEK. Yet he expects me to have an answer to it.

You're right I didn't give out any scum reads yet, and it might have been unfair to ask for yours. I'm still working on figuring you out. Plus I'd really like the others to show up so there can be some interactions with them.

@ gm Forget about me, who else is scum? I want your opinion because if you're Town, who might be on the block soon, you should be trying to point me to the true scum.

1. And here I thought it would be difficult to contradict oneself within 8 posts.
2. You were the one who brought up the fact that this is, in fact, LyLo/MyLo. If I get lynched the game is over. I hardly need to point

anyone

to

any

other Scum but you, because you chose this battle and I'm fairly sure I don't get to win it.
3. I've stated my opinion multiple times. You, on the other hand, seem to have been taking an awful lot of posts to say an awful lot of nothing. If nobody is willing to see this, fine. I'll at least be able to take it as a teaching opportunity.

The truth is I think you have to die for Town to win, and I'm asking town to step up, if they think I'm right.

If you really felt this way you would have stomped my lynch through yesterday. Why didn't you?
(Keep in mind that "benefit of the doubt" has no place in games of Mafia, and that you were the main driving force behind my reaching L-1.)

@Everyone who isn't jon:
1. Does anyone have any objections to narrowing today's lynch field to jon and me?
2. Now would be a good time to ask me any questions that you could possibly want answered.

[jon_h61]

Yes, I agree with gm. Everyone needs to be voicing opinions, and working on getting Town consensus. I think gm's most probably scum, she says I am. We both want your input.

[jon_h61]

@ gm Strawman and AtE noted. I don't care that I contradicted myself.

3. I've stated my opinion multiple times. You, on the other hand, seem to have been taking an awful lot of posts to say an awful lot of nothing. If nobody is willing to see this, fine. I'll at least be able to take it as a teaching opportunity.

You've stated your opinion, yes, but the things you're using to try to make me appear scummie is the issue.

You're trying to blow this fake pre-knowledge thing into something. If it could be only one of two picks from the Matrix, then obviously, there might be a RB. BUT he'd be useless to scum (except being turned into a fake scum tell) as a Role Blocker, Town doesn't have anything to block.

You trying to make certain sentences stretch into some fantastic statement that just isn't there.

I think your scum buddy is afraid to come out and play, they're scared one of the Town will trip them up.


I wish the other two Town would show up and help ask questions. I'm going to ISO Matti and Shrooms and dig up a few questions for them. I'll glance back over Victor's too, but I've read his several times now. Surely you guys have

something

to say.

[Matti]

Matti, I'm waiting.

I appreciate the patience - I haven't forgotten and I'm not avoiding intentionally.

I got out of work at 10pm last night and am back here now. I'll get something together today.

[VictorDeAngelo]

I don't want to narrow down the field until I finish looking over the game. I still want to know from Jon who his leading suspect is for GM's scumbuddy. The whole people aren't posting enough isn't sitting right with me. I'll try to get some questions at the end of this reread if anything stands out.

Jon (284) tells VW there should already be scum on his wagon. I don't remember him following up on this.

Chitmap is still just echoing popular opinion (295)

Actual is it just me is Jon overfriendly with Void. He's not backed away from the wagon but after asking him to find scum he seems to be buddying him (298).

I do like Jon's interactions with HITD here though. He has been consistant with this push.

Espe continues to stick to Edos/RC slot although he doesn't really offer much explanation. He then distances himself from the upcoming townflip of VW without actually doing anything to try and stop it (320).

Matti replaces into the SD/Drone role. He only focuses on four players - Espe/Jon/RC/Void - he just why are you voting for the person your voting for in four different ways. Looking back this questioning feels kinda forced. (329).

Matti's 332 does read quite towny though.

Jon keeps talking about metadiving Espe (I thought he'd already done that in the game)

@Jon

- How many players have you metadived this game excluding Espe?

Chitmap (351) looking back at this post, the first question looks like a decent attack on VW but the second has the whiff of chainsawing about it.

And the day ends. The final votecount:

Final Vote Count of Day One:

Voidwalker1234 - 5 (jon_h61, VictorDeAngelo, RedCoyote, chitmap2510, YurikoJasmine)

VictorDeAngelo - 2 (HiddenInTheDark, Voidwalker1234)
RedCoyote - 1 (Espeonage)

Not Voting - 1 (Matti)

---

After what seems like an eternity, the frazzled town drags Voidwalker reluctantly to the makeshift gallows. Fear and apathy warred with their bloodlust, but the Mafia were not going to leave without drastic action. Unfortunately, in this case the victim of their wrath was a simple townie like most of them...

Voidwalker1234,

Vanilla Townie

, has been lynched Day One.

I let HITD distract me from the wagon yesterday (I guess he really did just have a good townread on VW after all). I would be surprised if there wasn't one scum on the VW wagon after all. My thinking is Chitmap, he didn't ever really express any strong feeling about the wagon looked opportunistic with the vote. It could be Jon as well - despite all the criticism of Espe he has stuck to the VW since following Edos onto it early on.

I don't understand Espe's reasons for his vote on RC. Matti was not caught up at this point -

@Matti

who would you have voted for Day 1 and why?

I guess the votecounts are now less conclusive with HITD being town. If I would have to pick a scumteam out of you four based on Day 1's play it would Espe/Chitmap with the caveat that the Drone/SafetyDance/Matti role didn't provide much content. I have niggles about Jon but I finding him the towniest of the group of remaining players.

[goodmorning]

Is it just me, or do you talk about jon twice as often as you talk about anyone else?
Also, why didn't you answer my question?

[VictorDeAngelo]

Is it just me, or do you talk about jon twice as often as you talk about anyone else?

What point are you trying to make?

Also, why didn't you answer my question?

What question?

[goodmorning]

Is it just me, or do you talk about jon twice as often as you talk about anyone else?

What point are you trying to make?

What point do you think I'm trying to make? Does everything I say have to be making a point?

Also, why didn't you answer my question?

What question?

@Everyone who isn't jon:
1. Does anyone have any objections to narrowing today's lynch field to jon and me?
2. Now would be a good time to ask me any questions that you could possibly want answered.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Is it just me, or do you talk about jon twice as often as you talk about anyone else?

What point are you trying to make?

What point do you think I'm trying to make? Does everything I say have to be making a point?

So was it just an idle observation.

Also, why didn't you answer my question?

What question?

@Everyone who isn't jon:
1. Does anyone have any objections to narrowing today's lynch field to jon and me?
2. Now would be a good time to ask me any questions that you could possibly want answered.

I don't want to narrow down the field until I finish looking over the game. I still want to know from Jon who his leading suspect is for GM's scumbuddy. The whole people aren't posting enough isn't sitting right with me. I'll try to get some questions at the end of this reread if anything stands out.

[Matti]

I'm going to address the parts of HighShroomish's last wall post that I think will either take me forward as a player or us forward as a town. Apologies if it seems like I'm ignoring anything, please highlight those elements and I'll revisit them if you'd like. I'm trying not to get into a position where we are just head to head to no town benefit. Plus I'm tight on time.

In post 519, HighShroomish wrote:
2) Your interactions with me have a good amount of bull shit in them.

I would counter with your recent posts about me have a significant amount of bias in them and seem scummier because of it.

I don't feel there is any bull shit in my interactions with you that I won't have addressed in this post - point them out to me and I'll deal with them if I can - if not and I'm just lying to get you lynched - you got me - do the work and earn the lynch.

I think I explained fairly decently what the bull shit was. The only thing is you didn't quote it.

Then I'm missing it, sorry, help me out and highlight it in a way I simply can't miss and let's get to that. I don't think I bull shitted you.

in post 526, HighShroomish wrote:

This is where my post gets a bit confusing. This goes back up to the area of the posts before our interaction. It's fluff. Scum/town hunting is pulling reactions out of people and getting answers to questions, getting reads. You've just been picking them up as you've been going along.

Our interaction was started with questions from me - how have I been picking reads up as I go along - genuinely interested in learning a decent alternative to what I've been doing so far.


Regarding the HiddenInTheDark stuff :

"Okay, that was a rather harsh on my part. You can't create a read on someone if you exclude some of there posts. No matter if you take out the good or the bad. It will probably give you a wrong impression of that person. You have to take into calculation all their posts, as they all are part of their play."
I guess I viewed things a little differently from you however I can see why you reacted the way you did - :shrug: I'm trying to find ways to look at things and get information out. I'm not necessarily going to hit a good way or method first time each time.

You are right you can't ignore scummy play - I guess what I'm trying to put across was that while I felt there was scummy play from HiddenInTheDark - no arguments there - my over-riding feeling was one of misplaced or messed up town. So I was looking to see if there was any support for this idea from you - but in a rather messed up manner.

I appreciate the pointers and the discussion on this it really helps me clarify a lot of my thinking by having to justify it like this.

In post 519, HighShroomish wrote:
"And then Matti proceeds to agree with me that you can't separate a player from his posts. WHAT THE FUCK."


At no point do I ask you to separate the player from the posts.

Uh, yeah you did...

No I don't believe I did as I was looking at a player from some of his posts - different views again, this is a contest that doesn't help.

In post 519, HighShroomish wrote:
3) As far as I can tell, in his 409, he thinks I'm tunneling HITD. I asked him one question. I'm tunneling on Matti more than HITD, and I'm not even tunneling!

I did not mean to imply you were tunnelling - it was directed to VictorDeAngelo - it was a poorly worded post. The comments were to everyone so I feel it's clear that the (you) in question wasn't HighShroomish.

Thanks for clearing that up.

No bother - we are getting there and I'm learning a lot.

In post 519, HighShroomish wrote:
4) This should sum up another part of his 409 decently as well-
You memory better be perfect as hell or you are definitely scum.

I'm sorry this doesn't make sense to me - please expand on it. -

You explained this one - I now understand what you meant by that post.

My aim was not to say remember perfectly or be scum but to say that I'd like you to offer some support for your position that isn't just your opinion. I appreciate it's a lot to do, but in one way of viewing it, you offer an opinion and, with a chance to back it up, don't. I see that as somewhat scummy. I shouldn't have cast doubt on your memory that was childish.

And that jaw is going to need to get a bit stronger if you want to get into wall wars

You aren't wrong. I'm struggling to keep up with all this and keep things straight.

HighShroomish wrote:

I'm struggling not to write a huge thesis to this already big post. Please don't tempt me. It would probably get me mod killed or force replaced.

Ok, I'm struggling with the size of your posts as it is I don't need any more to deal with! I still feel the way that I stated above - that your playstyle is strongly built around your (pretty strong) force of playing and posting. I guess I feel it keenly as a new player - glass jaw again perhaps?

In post 519, HighShroomish wrote:
"And he goes with the flow, except that he isn't changing his read on me"

So exactly how am I going with the flow? By being the only player voting for you? By making you be the only player voting for me? This sentence makes no sense to me - could you please explain [2] it further?
You are spot on about me not posting for 3 days but some of your points seem contradictory I'm going with the flow, except....Doesn't work for me - but I'm biased.
By having the same reads as most of the other players except for the fact that you are scum reading me.
In post 519, HighShroomish wrote:
", which he could hardly do now without drawing suspicion. "

I totally disagree. I think you can change reads anytime based on posts and interactions.
Simply swapping votes with little to no reason would DEFINATELY draw suspicion. I'm not swapping MY vote.

If you suddenly stopped voting me along with giving up on trying to get people to vote me, then that would most definitely draw some sort of suspicion.

So you agree with me - great. Facts: I stopped being active in the thread and kept my vote on you. My read on you was slightly scummy.

I was actually very serious in saying I was the most town as fuck GUY around here. And did I mention I said nothing about girl?(yes, I just did that)

I totally missed that.

And that wasn't OMGUS. What I did with voting you was more OMGUS than what you did.

Ok I'm not understanding OMGUS in that case - I had understood it was the response to something that another player has done that you don't agree with hence the reaction OhMyGodYouSuck. No?

I'm on the "coat tails of VictorDeAngelo" because he posted before I was able to. I "took the hint from jon_h61" because I was busy up until then.

I see how you dismiss my points however I don't know if that's true or not and I will never find out. I say your play feels scummy to me because of my points above (if I don't accept your explanation).

Now if you can remove my OMGUS of HighShroomish which I freely admit is an element here - then I still feel he has scum elements.

Yours wasn't OMGUS. Just sayin.

Damnit - trying to walk the walk and failing. So I just reacted to your response then, no OMGUS - whatever that is.

My vote stays - convince me it should be elsewhere I don't think HiddenInTheDark is scum.

It's easy to say now but I'm happy at least that I could see the newb town struggling in HiddenInTheDark's play though it is easy to see why I could. So I've been able to get some reads right at least.



Right now HighShroomish and myself are busy back and forwarding about each other to much more effect on his part than mine, no surprise there really. I don't like his play style but his method of countering my points seems organised and I'd normally attribute town leaning to something like that so he's less scummy because of this. Now his willingness to interact and try and help out with my learning helps my view as well. I don't see much benefit in scum doing that, or am I being naive?

That said I'm hardly promoting the interaction with these absences - my apologies all around - if this is not enough for you guys I'll replace out. We have 10 + days to discuss and vote and I don't want to limit our time if that'll affect town's chances. I've got a variable work schedule that I can't predict and it's been very busy. I'll do my very best to post once a day but I just can't guarantee it.



Responding to a few other points, chime in if I don't answer any points you've put to me:

jon_h61 (531) asked about my mafia experience. :- I've played the game two games in real life and this is my first game on the interwebs. I was town once and mafia once in those games.

VictoDeAngelo (611) said "Matti replaces into the SD/Drone role. He only focuses on four players - Espe/Jon/RC/Void - he just why are you voting for the person your voting for in four different ways. Looking back this questioning feels kinda forced"

I explain in that post why I pick those four players:

"Initial questions if you care to get back to me while I'm catching up - yes I'm likely to find the answers by reading, yes it'll be useful if you add something here to help me out as I don't have too long.
(Cherry-picking the more experienced players and the top voted player for now)"

I question HiddenInTheDark in (341), VictorDeAngelo and HiddenInTheDark in (364), VictorDeAngelo and Espeonage and HighShroomish in (378).

Hope that clears that up?


VictorDeAngelo also asked who I would have voted for in day 1 - my post (364) details my reads as I got caught up. I'm those reads I felt Espeonage and chitmap2510 were scummiest but not super scum so one of those would have received my vote


Everyone wants more interaction from me and some reads so I'll summarise my position on the four of you:


HighShroomish - Scum read originally from the chitmap2510 days and his earliest interactions which is starting to fade a bit with the walls and me having to make myself understood.

VictorDeAngelo - original nullish read moved scummy and has become more town as he contributes - would be a bit stronger town but, as with HighShroomish, I'm not a fan of the playstyle and in particular his interactions with dritan and Drone67 in the early part of the game. I find his recent reviews useful to me.

jon_h61 - Seems town. Felt like that at the start and still does unless I'm missing something obvious? His focussing on other players is a slight negative aspect but his willingness to talk (and talk and talk) around those points makes him feel town.

[Note - is what jon_h61 is doing to goodmorning tunnelling?]

goodmorning - Town read of my slot based solely on her read of SafetyDance. While I'm the beneficiary I'm not wholly happy that as town we guarantee town based on read alone. That's like me accepting what HighShroomish tells me without questioning it. Not a huge fan. However, the playstyle of goodmorning is one I like with some of her points making sense to me as a newb. I'm reading this slot null due to goodmorning's slight town lean and Espeonage's scum lean


HighShroomish - could you outline why you voted goodmorning yesterday - is it all obvious in the thread or are you adding in anything else?

[TOWN] --- jon_h61 --- VictorDeAngelo - goodmorning - HighShroomish -------- [SCUM]

6 possible pairs of SCUM in this list of which I'll discount those including jon_h61 for the moment -

1) VictorDeAngelo + goodmorning
2) goodmorning + HighShroomish
3) Highshroomish + VictorDeAngelo

I'll get to looking into those pairs now and will get back soon as I can.

[goodmorning]

ohffs

effort is not indicative of alignment matti

srsly

[Matti]

Sorry for the text wall goodmorning.

If I can be less verbose I will.

I thought HighShroomish made the point that my lack of effort in 'disappearing' was close to a scum tell? Wouldn't that make effort alignment indicative at that point?

[jon_h61]

effort is not indicative of alignment matti

I'll again agree with gm, lots of things aren't alignment indicative.

I've looked through a lot of gm's games, and this one. I'll reiterate any points asked, but I'm convinced she has a scum slot. I'm going to go ahead and vote her. If one of us

has to be

scum, well, I know I'm not.

Take note how she accused me of calling for the 1v1. I did,

this

time. She called for it first, twice.

Speculation

I think she was hoping that I'd alienate the Town base with my responses to her posts. Notice how she attempts to come off as the beaten underdog, going for the sympathy vote.(my AtE)

Look at her quite substantial list of games.(this is burden of proficiency, another logical fallacy) She has the skill and experience to pull off a scum win.

I'm more than willing to vote her. (OMGUS)


@ Matti I've seen lots of things called OMGUS, neil tried to accuse me of OMGUSing him the last game we played together, just because I said I needed to take a closer look at his slot. Neither of us was voting the other one. My advice, don't get too hung up on definitions, stay away from absolutes, try to see

why

someone is defending, attacking, buddying, etc... Don't waste a lot of time on scum tells, they rarely catch scum.

As you play more games, work out what feels right to you, there's no one right way to play Mafia. Most of all, learn to trust your gut, don't take it too seriously, and play to have fun.


VOTE: goodmorning This is where all good and law abiding, upstanding, moral, conscientious, (fill in the adjective) Town should be placing their votes! We can't let this horrible trend of scum winning over half of the Matrix6 games continue!

[jon_h61]

Sorry for the text wall goodmorning.

If I can be less verbose I will.

I thought HighShroomish made the point that my lack of effort in 'disappearing' was close to a scum tell? Wouldn't that make effort alignment indicative at that point?

If you're Town and get hung up on trying to look like you're doing the "Townie" thing, you've just fallen into a trap. If you're scum, well, carry on.

On the issue of walls, lots of people skip them. They're mostly for the two players walling back and forth. I, personally, read every one of them. But conciseness

is

a virtue.

[jon_h61]

@ Matti DON'T REPLACE OUT! Vote gm!

[Matti]

Sorry for the text wall goodmorning.

If I can be less verbose I will.

I thought HighShroomish made the point that my lack of effort in 'disappearing' was close to a scum tell? Wouldn't that make effort alignment indicative at that point?

If you're Town and get hung up on trying to look like you're doing the "Townie" thing, you've just fallen into a trap. If you're scum, well, carry on.

On the issue of walls, lots of people skip them. They're mostly for the two players walling back and forth. I, personally, read every one of them. But conciseness

is

a virtue.

How on earth have I fallen into a trap? Could you explain please?

Either I'm town and I explained why I thought a point had been made regarding effort and alignment or I'm scum and I did the same.

Again, I get the feeling I'm missing something.

------------------


My gut/original reads put the chitmap2510 and Espeonage slots a bit more scummy than the others.

[VictorDeAngelo]

@ Matti DON'T REPLACE OUT! Vote gm!

When did Matti say he was gonna replace out?

[jon_h61]

@ Victor In his last wall. I missed it the first time I read over it too.

@ MAtti What I meant was if you start worrying about looking Town too much, scum can start using it against you, and make you appear even more scummie.