Recent Newbies

[ShadowLurker]

Recently, a lot of Newbies have been skipping Newbie Games, or have just seemed to be getting worse. While there are still a lot of good Newbies, the general quality of play seems to be declining.

In addition, the quality of Newbie Games in particular is declining. It is obvious that the latter is at minimum partially responsible for the former but I'm seeing a lot of no thought plays more and more:

1) Self-hammering. A lot of Newbies have been giving up and self hammering
rather than trying to argue. I think I saw an IC selfhammer in a game. Newbies need to be taught that mafia is not that personal, and to use rational arguments.

2) Ending the Day Early/Excessive Bandwagoning - I recently saw an IC hammer on Page 2. While this has happened several times already and they've been mostly accidents. This was an IC. Of the less and less newbies that are actually playing Newbie Games first, this is NOT the kind of behavior we should be teaching them.

3) Only using the arguments "I'm Town." I believe this should be explained in Newbie Games.

4) Using the Argument "Lynches risk losing a townie, so we should No Lynch." I believe this should be explained in Newbie Games.

So what do we need to do?

1) Get more ICs signed up for Newbie Games. There's a queue of Newbies right now and the more Newbie Games we run the more experienced we can improve. However, you should not IC if you don't plan to teach newbies.

2)

THE ICS NEED TO START PLAYING BETTER

. You should not be ICing if you do not handle newbies well. ICs should be patient and teach flawed arguments as well as set an example for good behavior. Not reading your role PM in a NEWBIE GAME of all games or hammering on Page 2 is not a good idea. Discussion and rational arguments need to be encouraged. Not reading your role PM or quickhammering in a Mini or something is annoying and will look bad for you, but they need to be KEPT to the other games.


Thoughts/Comments?

[Thok]

Basically I agree with most of the above; I just want to add my two cents.

I've seen a lot of people proclaim "Newbies need to see weird play styles, so they'll be used to them when they join larger games," as a justification for wild/flawed play. (Generally this is used to justify hyperaggressive play where an IC attacks everybody.)

MANY NEWBIES ALREADY PLAY IN A NONSTANDARD WAY!!!!

A significant number of newbies are too aggressive and need to be gently told that not every weird line is a scum tell. This is hard to do if you're jumping around at every remark. Many of the remaining newbies need to develop confidence that they can analyze other's remarks and can reasonably assess motives of those posting in thread. That's hard to do if somebody is wildly accusing everybody at a drop of a hat and dominating the thread.

The point of IC's is to give Newbies a feel for some idea of what reasonable play is so they know what a good starting point is for playing mafia. If a newbie later wants to develop their own flair or quirks, they'll have a chance to do so in larger games.

[Rainbow Brite]

2)

THE ICS NEED TO START PLAYING BETTER

. You should not be ICing if you do not handle newbies well. ICs should be patient and teach flawed arguments as well as set an example for good behavior. Not reading your role PM in a NEWBIE GAME of all games or hammering on Page 2 is not a good idea.

agreed. newbie games are not like other games - playing in them is a resposibility, it's community service, it's

not primarily for your own enjoyment

.

that's not to say they can't or shouldn't be fun, or played to win, but the role of ic's in newbie games is the voice of reason and to keep the game as enjoyable and flowing as possible.

that means no weird plays, but also means being sparing with the huge page-long analyses (which i'm prone to do - no point teaching newbies "follow the analyst").

[ChannelDelibird]

I agree entirely. I've been really taken aback by the number of newbies in New York games recently and I'm thinking that maybe we should consider making playing in at least one Road to Rome game mandatory to play any other game?

[Twito]

I really feel like part of this discussion.

I agree completely that newbies should start with newbiegames. Having 10+ newbies in a big game is horrible and makes it impossible to "teach" them.
The problem with the helping part is that looks kinda scummy tbh to start with all those "helpful" posts. Could be done though. The terms (such as FoS, OMGUS..) should be told on newbie games.

[spectrumvoid]

I did something horrible. I asked to be replaced in Mafia 57 because I couldn't tolerate the crazily high number of newbies in there. It's because the game was insane.

Can we have some kind of IC-standard thing in the newbie queue? I've played with ICs who don't deserve to be ICs.

Also, can we have some kind of newbie-ratio in large games? I'm not saying all newbies are bad, but when every other post isn't about the game, but about mafia strategy, it's just so tiring for me to have to explain myself every other post.

I'm also sick of repeating the same things over and over again. There are some newbies (*cough ~N9V~ cough*) who REFUSE to get it. I explained till I completely gave up.

We also need some kind of post explicitly telling people that MS.net is different. A lot of people have attitude problems, ie, they think that 'they know best' because they've played mafia before somewhere else, and therefore refuse to listen to any advice. I was from IRC mafia myself, and I know that it's completely different. When I start explaining what they did wrong, they vote me for not voting them, and for not wanting to lynch them for their mistake. If I did this with every newbie game, I swear the game will be over in less than 5 pages.

Sorry for the rant, but I'm in 3 newbies at the moment, so I feel pretty strongly about this.

[spectrumvoid]

Twito: Nice to see you in this thread *cough role pm cough*.

[Kelly Chen]

I did something horrible. I asked to be replaced in Mafia 57 because I couldn't tolerate the crazily high number of newbies in there. It's because the game was insane.

/disapprove of this

Can we have some kind of IC-standard thing in the newbie queue? I've played with ICs who don't deserve to be ICs.

/empathize

Also, can we have some kind of newbie-ratio in large games? I'm not saying all newbies are bad, but when every other post isn't about the game, but about mafia strategy, it's just so tiring for me to have to explain myself every other post.

I believe this is practically impossible, since demand for players is so high, there are just not enough experienced players to fill these games.

On a related note, I believe we are pumping out new games too fast or too many at a time [/hypocrite, but what can I do? It's not like stepping backwards in the queue and delaying my turn will help].

Sorry for the rant, but I'm in 3 newbies at the moment, so I feel pretty strongly about this.

I'd sign up to help you if I didn't expect to have to wage war to get replacements when I need them (i.e. replacement swapping).

Eh, alright I'll sign up for one.

[Glork]

Twito: Nice to see you in this thread *cough role pm cough*.

*coughSelfHammerAlsocough*

[Coron]

I've stopped playing in newbies because I felt that dealing with someone like me might not be the best infuence on the newbies, but if things like THIS are actually happening I might come back.

Note:
In some cases self hammering as scum is beneficial, especially if you've been investigated by an uncountered cop, etc.

[molestargazer]

Well, as a newbie myself I can empathise with what you are going through.

I think that a Mandatory newbie game would be very beneficial - when I came here I had played only in games where FoS was the most complicated term used. My newbie game helped me to understand terms such as WIFOM, hammering, and so on, and I feel like I can fit in a lot better.
However, I know I'm not a very good player still - I personally will stick to one game at a time for a while - perhaps for newbie's first few games we should try and limit them to one at a time so they can concentrate properly on one and not get confused? Just a thought.

[GreenLiquid]

I've thought of the idea of a forced newbie before, and really didn't like it. It seemed to much as a strict requirement on an otherwise pretty clean queue system. But in light of recent events, I've reconsidered.

Newbie games are the best way for newbies to get familiar with Mafia: they're quick, simple, and small. They guarantee that an experienced player will be there to help, and the small numbers means that the experienced players will be able to provide over-the-shoulder type guidance that wouldn't be feasable in a larger game.

Larger games, on the other hand, can be too much for newbies to handle. For one thing, they often have to make up their own claims. If you've never played before, will you even know what fakeclaims are the norm? All too often I see newbies claim ridiculously improbable roles in larger games, but can you blame them? Newbie games, with not only a predefined list of roles but a knowledge of how often they will occur, are a much better environment for newbies to figure out what's good, what's bad, and what to avoid.

I really don't want to this site to become strict in it's policies. Mafiascum is a great thing because of its freedoms, because it lacks the long waits and annoying restrictions of other websites. But is adding a requirement to playing an acceptable price to pay when it comes to teaching newbies? Or will it dissuade them from playing a game in the first place? I can't be sure of that, but I can be sure that something needs to be done to help newbies understand the game of mafia.

I don't blame them for a second, either. One must understand that it's not the newbies' fault. They just think that from their experience in real life or their games on another website that they have mastered mafia and know enough to join in the bigger games. Sometimes, they just don't understand how the queue works, and don't understand how a newbie game will help them become better. We need to make sure the newbies realize how valuable a newbie game can be to their knowledge and understanding of the game of mafia.

Furthermore, being an IC should not be thought of as a privellege but as a recognized responsibility. It is a service to the community. IC's should be ready to help newbies, not just lynch them in the blink of an eye. A newbie game is not the time to try a new strategy, and not a time to be haughty or stuck up. It is important to understand that newbie games are an important first impression, and incorrect behavior on the part of our IC's will not only potentially dissuade newbies from ever playering again, but may influence their way of playing as they develop in mafia. It is important to adopt an attidute of understanding and a gentle, teaching touch if one decides to play as an IC.

Anyways, apologies for the long post but I do believe that the very foundation of Mafiascum are our newbies, and we must ensure that their introduction to the game of mafia is informative, fun, and above all positive. For our community to continue to grow in a positive manner and to produce lively and dedicated players, it is crucial that we maximize the influence and quality of our newbie games.

[ShadowLurker]

I've stopped playing in newbies because I felt that dealing with someone like me might not be the best infuence on the newbies, but if things like THIS are actually happening I might come back.

Note:
In some cases self hammering as scum is beneficial, especially if you've been investigated by an uncountered cop, etc.

That's the reason I mainly don't sign up for newbies, I don't think I am the best teacher. Although I'm sure I could behave myself if I tried

Well all the self hammers I've seen so far have been from Town.

Well, as a newbie myself I can empathise with what you are going through.

I think that a Mandatory newbie game would be very beneficial - when I came here I had played only in games where FoS was the most complicated term used. My newbie game helped me to understand terms such as WIFOM, hammering, and so on, and I feel like I can fit in a lot better.
However, I know I'm not a very good player still - I personally will stick to one game at a time for a while - perhaps for newbie's first few games we should try and limit them to one at a time so they can concentrate properly on one and not get confused? Just a thought.

See newbies that are willing to learn as well as critically assess themselves are a great asset for this site. They bring in new players and more games and more games help them. Some newbies seem to refuse to think though even when you try and explain it to them. Some of them are downright arrogant.

[Seol]

Furthermore, being an IC should not be thought of as a privellege but as a recognized responsibility. It is a service to the community. IC's should be ready to help newbies, not just lynch them in the blink of an eye.

QFT.

Well all the self hammers I've seen so far have been from Town.

Self-hammering as town = absolutely wrong. Never correct strategically (in a noob game definitely), nothing more than a petulant act of frustration. ICs should not be succumbing to such destructive acts against their side, and if they are, they shouldn't be ICs.

Self-hammering as scum is a different matter - occasionally viable and therefore reasonable in a newbie game in the circumstances where it's justified.

There's a reason I don't use Brite for newbie games, only Seol.

[Trojan Horse]

I've been really taken aback by the number of newbies in New York games recently and I'm thinking that maybe we should consider making playing in at least one Road to Rome game mandatory to play any other game?

Until now, my graduate school work has kept me from committing to playing in any forum games. Of course, I've had enough spare time to make the occasional post in the mafia discussion forum, and to play several scumchat games. But no forum games yet; I can never be sure I'll have enough time to play the game to its conclusion. I'll correct this horrible mistake later this year, once my Ph.D. is complete.

I'd prefer to play a mini game first, but if I'm forced to start with a newbie, so be it. I certainly can understand the reasoning behind making a newbie game mandatory before playing any other games. (And I wouldn't want you to make an exception for me; others would then want one too... )

[Twito]

Twito: Nice to see you in this thread *cough role pm cough*.

Did it only once. Not planning on doing it again. It wasn't really that much fun at all..

Twito: Nice to see you in this thread *cough role pm cough*.

*coughSelfHammerAlsocough*

Wasn't planning to selfhammer I explained it. I though it wouldn't be counted coz of not unvoting first.

I've stopped playing in newbies because I felt that dealing with someone like me might not be the best infuence on the newbies, but if things like THIS are actually happening I might come back.

I was away for a while aswell but now I'm back. Worse than ever as some ppl seem to think.

Me also could behave myself if me tried.

[Norinel]

Can we have some kind of IC-standard thing in the newbie queue? I've played with ICs who don't deserve to be ICs.

On the one hand, with my idea about how the numbers, enacting a standard that would exclude people would probably mean most Newbie games would be 5 new/2 IC. But we might be trading quantity for quality, which'd be a good thing.

Is there some way we could up the quality without cutting quantity as much? Maybe passing the IC test or whatever could put you on a list to be contacted if the queue just plain needs more people, so if we need a couple more I can run down the line and ask if you're interested?

(And if there are specific cases where an IC player should be talked to or restricted from newbie games, PM me. Even if there isn't a specific procedure, I'd like to know who people are concerned with.)

[Mr. Flay]

I think we do pump out too many games at a time sometimes, and I'm not really sure why so many new players (not necessarily newbies at Mafia, but new to MafiaScum) join New York/Theme Park games. Maybe it's easier to understand the "10 slots left in Naruto Mafia!" header than the Newbie Game queue? Any recent newbies got a comment? I know I'm not a typical case, because I learned through reading over -o-'s shoulder, and my first several games were newbies and minis. That was also

almost two years ago now

almost three years ago (?!?), which is medieval history in MS time.

Requiring players to sign up for a newbie game first as a sitewide policy is probably too much. Strongly encouraging it by any means possible is a good idea though. That means FAQs, answering questions from newbies posting in non-Queue threads about how to play, scumchat, etc. Allowing mods to give preference to non-Townsperson players might be something to revisit (I know mith has said the Queues should be first-come-first-serve, just throwing it out there). And Norinel's idea of a waitlist of known good ICs willing to help out would probably alleviate some strain there.

But I'm really disappointed in the level of play at many levels of the game, not just the Newbies, frankly. People should moderate how many games they are in based on how many they can actually pay attention to and participate to the best of their ability in, in my view. Maybe that makes me an elitist snob...

[IH]

...What about..... for larger themed games mod's have the right to refuse newbie's playing to enhance the game quality, and for funky mechanics.

Not only that, but whenever a newbie or a signup comes up, have all mods to post "if you are new, it is advised for you to play one newbie game, as it is the same, and a little less confusing" just in case newbies don't get the signups. I remember a few months back that I was pretty confused on what to do....

of course I am a dumbass. = )

[Zindaras]

Is there some way we could up the quality without cutting quantity as much? Maybe passing the IC test or whatever could put you on a list to be contacted if the queue just plain needs more people, so if we need a couple more I can run down the line and ask if you're interested?

Yeah, this is pretty much what I had in mind. I'm okay with playing newbies, but I prefer to keep to bigger games. However, when necessary, I'm always okay with playing in one, simply because I view it as a responsibility to help newbies. So a list of "call me when you need me" players seems like a great idea to me.

I think we do pump out too many games at a time sometimes, and I'm not really sure why so many new players (not necessarily newbies at Mafia, but new to MafiaScum) join New York/Theme Park games. Maybe it's easier to understand the "10 slots left in Naruto Mafia!" header than the Newbie Game queue? Any recent newbies got a comment? I know I'm not a typical case, because I learned through reading over -o-'s shoulder, and my first several games were newbies and minis. That was also

almost two years ago now

almost three years ago (?!?), which is medieval history in MS time

I think that, with all respect to the newbies, it all depends on their "talent". My first game was a big and rather complex game (Cults, Cops with sanity issues, strange roles) and I managed to do pretty well in it. While there surely was/is an increase in playskills, you can usually see how far a newbie's going to go from his first game.

I think that the problem we have is that, currently, we're getting a lot of newbies who aren't going to go very far.

[AndrewS]

Me also could behave myself if me tried.

Then try!

[Glork]

Me also could behave myself if me tried.

Then try!

[Mr Finch]

Speaking for myself here (as a newbie):

I found the site originally through some completely unrelated blog entries. I liked the sound of the game but a quick peek through the Wiki told me there was a lot for me to learn before joining a mainstream game. Then I found The Road To Rome. Ok, newbie games. Right, where to sign up?

I joined the forum and signed up in the newbie thread. I then spent the time waiting for a game to start reading through old games, the wiki, Mafia Discussion and essentially anything I could find.

Having got a few things wrong in the first game, I have learned a bit and signed up for a second which is still in progress. I got told in this game that I am "uber-intelligent. I'm not, I took the time to scope how it works. Something that MOST newbies don't seem to do.

One of the things that I realised very quickly is that there is a hell of a lot more to learn than just the roles in the C9. I am probably going to play at least one more newbie before signing up for anything else.

Reading through a few of the New York games, I had also noticed how many newbies had signed up. No matter what their claimed experience of the Mafia game,I have seen (even in my limited experience) newbie mistakes.

I agree that you can't make playing a Newbie game mandatory, but perhaps a huge sign on either the homepage, in the Wiki or a sticky thread in the forum that says something like "Played Mafia Before? New Here? We suggest you play a newbie game first." And then give a few reasons why. Perhaps you could highlight the way things are done differently here to other forums or in meatworld?

I think that the problem we have is that, currently, we're getting a lot of newbies who aren't going to go very far.

QFT.

The problem with many people (newbies) is that they think something looks "like a bit of fun", sign up and play half a game (outside the newbie game) realise it's a hell of a commitment and disappear without a trace.

Something I have wondered as a total newbie to the environment is the setup of the newbie game. No problem with 2/3 ICs and 4/5 Newbies and a MOD. What I wondered is if a really dedicated person (advisor if you like) posts and educates the newbies with where the newbie might be going wrong, what certain terms might mean etc. The advisor couldn't be lynched and would take no part in the play of the game, they would just be there to advise.

The ICs could then play their own roles bringing the experience to the game without having to educate too. Perhaps the MOD could play the advisor role?

Might be a way out suggestion, but it was just a thought I had.

I have typed for too long so will shut up now!

[ChannelDelibird]

Finch - you make some good points but the Advisor role is infeasible. It's very, very hard, I'd say impossible, to do it in an unbiased way, and it stops the game being natural. Part of the reason that the newbie games exist is to learn from mistakes. It's also teaching newbies that they can't function without an advisor in the future.

[Mr Finch]

That's quite true, thanks. I thought I'd put it out there. If it won't work then hey ho!