Policy Discussion: Banning Players

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Post Post #25 (ISO) » Wed Feb 14, 2007 3:00 am

Post by Thestatusquo »

1. Do you feel experience requirements are acceptable in Large (Theme/Normal) games?

Yes. I am of the opinion that who is let into a game should be at the sole discretion of the mod. There are plenty of other games to join if a given mod doesn't want you.

2. If so, do you think they would be appropriate for other types of games, such as Mini Theme games?

Yes. Discretion of the mod. I don't see how that would change just because the game got smaller.

3. Should Mods be allowed to ban specific players from their games?

Yes. A mods game is their kingdom. Just as they should be allowed to modkill and set rules at their discretion, they should be able to oversee the signups at their discretion.

4. If so, what reasons are acceptable for doing so?

Anything. What the mod decides for their game should be law. If a mod wants to ban all players with a name begining in "R" from their game, then they should have that right. It may be a bit stupid, but so are a lot of things that happen in a game of mafia. My main point is that the mod should be the sole determining factor of who plays in their game, and in what capacity.
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Post Post #26 (ISO) » Wed Feb 14, 2007 4:29 am

Post by mikeburnfire »

I do not disagree with anything TSQ has said.
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Post Post #27 (ISO) » Wed Feb 14, 2007 4:59 am

Post by Mr. Flay »

I do. I think all of this "the mod's game is their kingdom" stuff is counter to the mission of this site, which is to provide quality Online Mafia games for all comers. If mod's have ultimate authority over their games, why do we have Moderation Queues? Why do we sometimes require games to be reviewed? Why do you think mith set up the first-come-first-served criterion for queues in the first place? If we go down that route, I believe we'll rapidly balkanize into cliques and mod abuse and becoming newbie unfriendly.
Adele wrote:Is it that rare for people to pm their preferred players to give them a heads-up that a certain game is starting soon and they'd be very welcome, so they stand a better chance of signing up quickly? Or is that a naughty thing to do? :oops:
I don't think it's all that naughty, personally. Queues sometimes fill up so quickly here that if you know someone wants to play an upcoming game of yours, dropping them a line doesn't seem too bad. But if you're sending out 16 invitations to your 18 player game, or waiting til all of your buddies are on scumchat before posting your signup thread...yeah, that's probably skirting the boundaries of fair play a bit.
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Post Post #28 (ISO) » Wed Feb 14, 2007 5:24 am

Post by mikehart »

Thestatusquo wrote:
3. Should Mods be allowed to ban specific players from their games?

Yes. A mods game is their kingdom. Just as they should be allowed to modkill and set rules at their discretion, they should be able to oversee the signups at their discretion.

4. If so, what reasons are acceptable for doing so?

Anything. What the mod decides for their game should be law. If a mod wants to ban all players with a name begining in "R" from their game, then they should have that right. It may be a bit stupid, but so are a lot of things that happen in a game of mafia. My main point is that the mod should be the sole determining factor of who plays in their game, and in what capacity.
QFT
Mr. Flay wrote:I do. I think all of this "the mod's game is their kingdom" stuff is counter to the mission of this site, which is to provide quality Online Mafia games for all comers. If mod's have ultimate authority over their games, why do we have Moderation Queues? Why do we sometimes require games to be reviewed? Why do you think mith set up the first-come-first-served criterion for queues in the first place? If we go down that route, I believe we'll rapidly balkanize into cliques and mod abuse and becoming newbie unfriendly.
What about a large normal or theme? For both mods are responsible for their own sign-ups and the like.
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Post Post #29 (ISO) » Wed Feb 14, 2007 5:26 am

Post by petroleumjelly »

Not entirely sure I agree with that, Flay.
Mr. Flay wrote:If mod's have ultimate authority over their games, why do we have Moderation Queues? Why do we sometimes require games to be reviewed? Why do you think mith set up the first-come-first-served criterion for queues in the first place?
This seems more like an iteration of "is-ought" to me. "That's the way it is, so that's the way it ought to be". There is nothing saying we
have
to have Moderation Queues, or reviewed games, or first-come-first-serve criterions. Also, to answer your questions:

1.) We have Moderation Queues so that each Mod has to undergo the same waiting time before they can mod their game, so that games are not being signed for in an unorganized manner. This has no bearing on how the mod is to conduct their game once it is ready for sign-ups.

2.) We have games reviewed because players tend to dislike games which later turn out to be unbalanced - this will adversely affect that players who sign up for that mod in the future. Players also like a sense of fairness; if they are given a role, they expect fair chances at being able to win with it.

3.) First-come-first-serve for queues is simply how it has always
been
: there is nothing saying that's the way it has to
stay
. Reasons were probably along the lines of organization, [general] equality, and consistency.
Mr. Flay wrote:If we go down that route, I believe we'll rapidly balkanize into cliques and mod abuse and becoming newbie unfriendly.
*slaps self to stop from mentioning slopes of slipperiness*

This, however, is likely somewhat true. The problem is, I (for one) am probably
already
at or near the stage of being frustrated with certain players and newbies who have little to no experience, and I keep thinking that I would enjoy the occasional game which guarantees that I
will not
have to play with those players. This of course ties in well with the invitationals thread, but it can also go hand-in-hand with 'banning players' in particular.

If a mod has spent time both designing a game and waiting for it to bump up the queue so it can be modded, I would certainly think they have the right to disallow players who they think will:

A.) Not understand their role, or game mechanics
B.) Not participate fully [lurk]
C.) Flake out [need replacement]
D.) Be unnecessarily crass, or insulting
E.) Have had a prior history of a problem with that mod or another game.

Designing a game is like opening a convenience store on the city block. You
still
have to follow set rules (like everybody else in the city), but it's your right to deny customers if you have good reason to do so... after all, you're only hurting your own business at your own risk.

Edit:
However, if such a discriminatory practice would hinder the movement of items or people across borders, Congress has the right to regulate or prohibit such practices under the Interstate Commerce Clause. Poli-Sci FTW!

Note: I do not think that
every
game should have such criterions; far from it. If everybody were to deny the same players the chance to play in games, it would be overly discriminatory and allow those players little to no chances to change what is "wrong" with their play. Of course, Newbie Games and Open Set-Up Games [since they have fixed set-ups which do not vary with Mods] should have no means for denial excepting for technical rules (such as "you can't play in more than 2 newbie games at a time", etc).
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Post Post #30 (ISO) » Wed Feb 14, 2007 9:21 am

Post by Mr. Flay »

I'll see your "is/ought" and raise you an "is&ought" - that's the way it is and AND it's the way it ought to be, in my opinion. That may sound elitist, but there's a lot of anecdotal experience in my world (performing plays and ritual, MUDs, neighborhood watch, mediation) that the things which are uncontrolled tend to be both of lower quality AND of lower perceived value by the participants. MafiaScum definitely errs from time to time on the "too long and thoughty" scale, but I think we've done very well on controlling bad moderator behavior so far.

1) We also have Moderation Queues so that List Moderators can control who is getting in the queue. I've seen several signup threads for Large Themes shut down because people didn't even follow the lightweight process there, and several of them are games that obviously hadn't been thought out very well. Co-moderators and setup reviews are becoming more common, and I think that's a good thing.

2) Why does fairness not also include who can play in what games? If a player perceives that a moderator will never let them in any of their games, ever again, because they got them lynched that one time, is that fair? If Townspersons cannot get into any games they want because everyone starts yelling at them to "Go back to The Road To Rome!", is that fair? If you're not chatting in MishMash and General Discussion, it can take a LONG time to get to Mafia Scum or even Goon level in the forum with just game-related posts.

3) Now here I agree with you somewhat (and I knew my slope was somewhat slippery when I said it). I think first-come-first-serve is not necessarily ideal in ALL situations, but for most games it suffices. Heavy changes to Game Mechanics, really elaborately worked Themes, and problem players (which I don't see your examples rising to the level of, frankly) are special cases that could do with some discretionary power, and I think that's why mith made this thread to begin with. It's certainly been given a blind eye from time to time in the past (there's an old thread where DP, I think, said that he wouldn't allow any Townspersons into his large games).

I know certain people can be irritating, although even one of them I recently had the pleasure to play with and found his arguments logical and his play relatively careful. So there is hope!
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Post Post #31 (ISO) » Wed Feb 14, 2007 12:09 pm

Post by Cogito Ergo Sum »

Mr Flay wrote:If you're not chatting in MishMash and General Discussion, it can take a LONG time to get to Mafia Scum or even Goon level in the forum with just game-related posts.
Um, only posts in the mafia games forums count for one's post count and as such for one's title. Game-related posts are the only way to get to Goon and Mafia Scum.
Scumchat is awesome. Yarr!

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Post Post #32 (ISO) » Wed Feb 14, 2007 12:39 pm

Post by Mr. Flay »

Errr, right. :oops: I guess my point is that some players can learn the ropes of our brand of Mafia in 10-20 posts of a Newbie Game, while others take much longer. Applying a blanket exclusion of "All Townspersons/Goons" seems self-defeating to me.
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Post Post #33 (ISO) » Wed Feb 14, 2007 2:12 pm

Post by Thestatusquo »

I don't recall anyone advocating that lines should be drawn there, but perhaps I just don't have a good memory (Note, I am not being sarcastic here)
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Post Post #34 (ISO) » Wed Feb 14, 2007 3:24 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

Mr. Flay wrote:I'll see your "is/ought" and raise you an "is&ought" - that's the way it is and AND it's the way it ought to be, in my opinion. That may sound elitist, but there's a lot of anecdotal experience in my world (performing plays and ritual, MUDs, neighborhood watch, mediation) that the
things which are uncontrolled tend to be both of lower quality AND of lower perceived value by the participants.
MafiaScum definitely errs from time to time on the "too long and thoughty" scale, but I think we've done very well on controlling bad moderator behavior so far.
Your point works both ways. If you allow moderators a filtering process for their games, you are giving
that much more control
to the moderator, which will thereby heighten the quality.
Mr. Flay wrote:1) We also have Moderation Queues so that List Moderators can control who is getting in the queue. I've seen several signup threads for Large Themes shut down because people didn't even follow the lightweight process there, and several of them are games that obviously hadn't been thought out very well. Co-moderators and setup reviews are becoming more common, and I think that's a good thing.
I agree: the queue system keeps things nice and orderly, and makes sure that moderators are experienced enough to mod and can make a balanced set-up.

But the focus of this discussion is what to do once that moderator reaches the point when their game is open for sign-ups. In the same manner some players cannot play in some mini games (if they are already in 4 other mini games, for example), moderators should have some control over who signs up for their games.
Mr. Flay wrote:2) Why does fairness not also include who can play in what games?
If a player perceives that a moderator will never let them in any of their games, ever again, because they got them lynched that one time, is that fair?
If Townspersons cannot get into any games they want because everyone starts yelling at them to "Go back to The Road To Rome!", is that fair? If you're not chatting in MishMash and General Discussion, it can take a LONG time to get to Mafia Scum or even Goon level in the forum with just game-related posts.
I'll split this into sections.

A.) Again, I can argue both ways. Fairness should also apply to all the
other
players in the game... you don't toss in a guy who can't aim a gun in a military squadron, because he's just as likely to be a liability as a help. The same goes for the type of players I would think are being the targets of 'bans' from games: until they can learn to use their tools, or at least are making marked efforts at improving, I can understand an unwillingness to let them play with the "big boys" until they've at least shown their worth in the "little league".

B.) The situation you present is not one of the reasons I would agree with a mod 'banning' a player from their games: vendettas are not a sufficient reason so far as I'm concerned. Only if you have good reason to believe that a player will ruin a game in some manner (as I described earlier) do I find it allowable to kindly tell a player to sign up for something different.

C.) A Mod which denies a "townsperson" on the basis of them being a townsperson is not being fair: as do other mods, if I spend my time making a carefully balanced set-up with what I consider to be intriguing mechanics or roles, I do not want them ruined because some player doesn't understand the basics of mafia and will claim right off the bat, or get themselves modkilled by quoting, etc etc.

For example, for Royal Family Mafia, I had two players who had never played a game on Mafia Scum sign up for my game... all I did was PM each of them asking for any past experiences in playing Mafia, and whether or not they understood basic roles (such as those found on the Wiki). After they responded, I decided that they were knowledgeable enough that I had no qualms keeping them on the roster, and the game opened soon afterwards. Denying completely raw newbies (as in "I've never played before, but it looks exciting!") is acceptable for an intricate set-up, but
not
an open set-up [which we now have at mini size, New York size,
and
Newbie game size], since there are no special mechanics which can be ruined.

I do agree with you that players can and do improve over time: but there are plenty of games other than Mini Larges or Mini Themes in which those players can do so. I do not agree with the "I can ban you no questions asked" attitude, since I think people have a right to know exactly why they are being disallowed from playing so that they, at the very least, can make an effort to either argue the opposite or change their play in some manner so as to appease the mod.
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Post Post #35 (ISO) » Wed Feb 14, 2007 11:14 pm

Post by Zindaras »

Have I mentioned that I love PJ?

'Cause I do.
Mr. Flay wrote:I don't think it's all that naughty, personally. Queues sometimes fill up so quickly here that if you know someone wants to play an upcoming game of yours, dropping them a line doesn't seem too bad. But if you're sending out 16 invitations to your 18 player game, or waiting til all of your buddies are on scumchat before posting your signup thread...yeah, that's probably skirting the boundaries of fair play a bit.
What's wrong with getting out 16 invitations for an 18 (or even a 16) player game? If they want to play, why should they not?
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Post Post #36 (ISO) » Thu Feb 15, 2007 4:49 am

Post by Mr. Flay »

Uhm, because that would make in an Invitational, which you have to get permission for?? :?
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Post Post #37 (ISO) » Thu Feb 15, 2007 5:46 am

Post by Adele »

Mr. Flay wrote:Uhm, because that would make in an Invitational, which you have to get permission for?? :?
I don't want this to turn cliquey. The fact that ShadowLurker has become a Player Of Note in just a few months is one of the great things about this site (considering that there have been games that lasted longer than he's yet been onsite :shock: ). So I certainly agree that invitationals shouldn't be the norm (though if they were I suppose the A-list and B-list players would have to turn down so many that newbies still did get a look-in). But what's the harm in thinking "I've worked really hard for a good set-up that I know Zindaras, MeMe, Stoofer, Fritz, AniX, Pooky, Rainbow Brite and CES would really appreciate - and all the more if they could play it with one another", what's the harm?

I guess what I'm saying is, why are invitationals by permission only?
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Post Post #38 (ISO) » Thu Feb 15, 2007 6:27 am

Post by Mr Stoofer »

Adele wrote:I guess what I'm saying is, why are invitationals by permission only?
I think this discussion has moved over into the subject area of Policy Discussion: Invitationals. Although I accept there is an overlap.

I always understood that there was a difference between:

1
. An Invitational -- which operates outside the List system, and requires permission

2
. A game within the List system, which the Mod notifies to some people before general sign-ups open -- which I always assumed was permissible -- it certainly happens a lot and there has been no attempt by authority to ban it.

I understood that this thread was talking about, amongst other things, Type 1 and that Policy Discussion: Invitationals is the place to discuss Type 2.
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Post Post #39 (ISO) » Thu Feb 15, 2007 8:30 am

Post by Kelly Chen »

petroleumjelly wrote:Denying completely raw newbies (as in "I've never played before, but it looks exciting!") is acceptable for an intricate set-up, but
not
an open set-up [which we now have at mini size, New York size,
and
Newbie game size], since there are no special mechanics which can be ruined.
I don't understand here whether you're making a distinction between "intricate" and "open," or you're saying that intricate open setups don't have "special mechanics which can be ruined."
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Post Post #40 (ISO) » Thu Feb 15, 2007 8:37 am

Post by Seol »

Open setups can be reused. With many closed setups, there's a moment of revelation which is one-off, and can't ever be reused.
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Post Post #41 (ISO) » Thu Feb 15, 2007 9:09 am

Post by Kelly Chen »

Oh I see. The concern is that a closed setup can only be tried once. Whereas if newbs wreck an open setup, the mod can always get back in line and try it again later with different newbs.
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Post Post #42 (ISO) » Fri Feb 16, 2007 11:46 pm

Post by BrianMcQueso »

mith wrote:3. Should Mods be allowed to ban specific players from their games?
everybody wrote:Yes!
Am I the only one that believes that moderators banning players from joining their games is not acceptable under
any
circumstances? Some of my fellow scummers have mentioned that it is acceptable as long as it doesn't come as the result of personal grudges. However, if a moderator decides to ban a player, that in itself is a subjective decision. If one moderator allows a player to play while another moderator refuses to allow them to play, then it is bias, it is discrimination, and it is something we don't need here on the boards.

If a player's behavior has become disruptive or harmful to the boards to a degree where it would seem justified to ban them from a game, then it should be a decision made by the MafiaScum community, and apply to all games a player would be able to join. If a player is to be banned, they should be banned from all games. I believe this is an all-or-nothing situation. As soon as it blurs that line, then people are being treated unfairly.
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Post Post #43 (ISO) » Sat Feb 17, 2007 4:47 am

Post by Yosarian2 »

mith wrote:
1. Do you feel experience requirements are acceptable in Large (Theme/Normal) games?
Sure. Don't see any reason why not.
2. If so, do you think they would be appropriate for other types of games, such as Mini Theme games?
Well, I would tend to think that if you haven't modded before a theme mini game's not a bad place to start, unless the game has really difficult rules. I don't really see why a new mod should be able to mod a mini normal but not a mini theme, although it should be suggested that you not try to run a theme with complex voting rules or anything like that your first time out.


Edit: Ah, misread the thread, thought we were talking about modding requirements. As for playing requirements, there's nothing wrong with a mod having a game and requesting only experenced players join. For example, I wouldn't want to have a newbie join a Time Travel Mafia game.
3. Should Mods be allowed to ban specific players from their games?
Yes.
4. If so, what reasons are acceptable for doing so?
Intentional disruptions of the game (I hate you guys!!! Just for that, I'm going to tell you who my three scum partners are!). Intentional premeditated cheating. And a severe and chronic pattern of inactivity, although in that case there should be another chance for the player to try again, perhaps by limiting him to one game at a time until he's proved he can be an active player.
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Post Post #44 (ISO) » Sat Feb 17, 2007 5:26 am

Post by Kelly Chen »

BrianMcQueso wrote:Am I the only one that believes that moderators banning players from joining their games is not acceptable under
any
circumstances?
I think that is quite a bad suggestion.
Some of my fellow scummers have mentioned that it is acceptable as long as it doesn't come as the result of personal grudges. However, if a moderator decides to ban a player, that in itself is a subjective decision.
Who's going to make better decisions for the game than its mod?

How about this: The mod has to have some other mod back them up on the decision.
If one moderator allows a player to play while another moderator refuses to allow them to play, then it is bias, it is discrimination, and it is something we don't need here on the boards.
It's GOOD bias. If you're so useless, or are perceived as such a risk, that you make a mod want to ban you, I don't know why you should have the right to know in advance which mods will admit you.
If a player's behavior has become disruptive or harmful to the boards to a degree where it would seem justified to ban them from a game, then it should be a decision made by the MafiaScum community, and apply to all games a player would be able to join. If a player is to be banned, they should be banned from all games.
I think an institutionalized global ban list, in place of isolated decisions, would be much uglier and much less useful.
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Post Post #45 (ISO) » Sat Feb 17, 2007 11:33 am

Post by Zindaras »

Mr. Flay wrote:Uhm, because that would make in an Invitational, which you have to get permission for?? :?
I thought that was just the official invitationals.
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Post Post #46 (ISO) » Sat Feb 17, 2007 11:55 am

Post by Adele »

Zindaras wrote:
Mr. Flay wrote:Uhm, because that would make in an Invitational, which you have to get permission for?? :?
I thought that was just the official invitationals.
Exactly, me too.
BrianMcQueso wrote:Some of my fellow scummers have mentioned that it is acceptable as long as it doesn't come as the result of personal grudges. However, if a moderator decides to ban a player, that in itself is a subjective decision.
Yep.
I might make the subjective decision, having spent a couple dozen hours working on a subtle, interesting setup and waited 3 months to get to run a game, that I don't want player X who always acts like a chump essentially shoves a load of white noise into peoples' scumdars and who's hurt more than one game I've played with him. Others may have lower standards, find it amusing, or try to metagame him in-game.

Others may, for whatever reason, want to be able to guarantee that their game's pg-13. If you run a search on game-thread instances of the word "fuck", you'll get a pretty good idea of some people you wouldn't want in such a game; is it unfair to say "the forum states pg-13yness and you fail to keep to it, so I can't be sure you'll keep to my rules, so you can't join"?

Or if you're running a game you know oftentimes lurkers would kill stone dead, and replacements would really really hurt...

etc etc etc.
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Post Post #47 (ISO) » Sat Feb 17, 2007 12:41 pm

Post by Raging Rabbit »

Adele wrote:Others may, for whatever reason, want to be able to guarantee that their game's pg-13. If you run a search on game-thread instances of the word "fuck", you'll get a pretty good idea of some people you wouldn't want in such a game; is it unfair to say "the forum states pg-13yness and you fail to keep to it, so I can't be sure you'll keep to my rules, so you can't join"?
Incidentally, is there a site policy on PG-13ness? I personally object censorship in all it's forms and find the occasional "fuck" very useful, but wouldn't blatantly disobey any site rules or anything.
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Post Post #48 (ISO) » Sat Feb 17, 2007 12:51 pm

Post by Adele »

To the best of my knowledge, mith wants games kept pg-13 but leaves the policing of it to mods, while he's tolerant of bad language in the discussion forums. I could be wrong, though.
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Post Post #49 (ISO) » Sat Feb 17, 2007 1:45 pm

Post by Fircoal »

1. Do you feel experience requirements are acceptable in Large (Theme/Normal) games?

Yes, but it should also take in account how many games the person is playing at the time, if they are a newbie.

2. If so, do you think they would be appropriate for other types of games, such as Mini Theme games?

No

3. Should Mods be allowed to ban specific players from their games?

YES!

4. If so, what reasons are acceptable for doing so?

Abuse, cheating, breaking the rules, being replaced a lot, being modkilled a lot.

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