Mini 581 - Andy's Death - Over

[Dave]

@Dave -- lurkers are bad enough, but one who seems to think it is alright is even worse. As a pro-town play, that was a huge no-no, and as a scum play that seemed to be a tell.

FoS: Dave.

@ avinashv: Read what i said again, i dont say i support not talking or "lurking", i say i pick my words carefully and i only post when i have something to say, if you want me to post more, i would only be repeating myself in other words, i post what i have to say.

[Jenter Brolincani]

The similar town action, Dodge, is not arguing for a d1 massclaim at all when it's so blatantly a stupid idea.

Also, you arguments are now useless. I haven't disproved that massclaim can win games, but you no longer have any evidence that they do, and you don't seem to be keen on providing any.

PbPA coming up when I get back in tonight.

[JDodge]

The similar town action, Dodge, is not arguing for a d1 massclaim at all when it's so blatantly a stupid idea.

Also, you arguments are now useless. I haven't disproved that massclaim can win games, but you no longer have any evidence that they do, and you don't seem to be keen on providing any.

PbPA coming up when I get back in tonight.

Question: Is there such a thing as a universal scumtell?

avin: It's the contradiction between the two posts which is glaringly obvious.

[Andycyca]

Vote Count:

JDodge- 3 (Dave, Jenter Brolincani, Sethaniel)
avinashv- 2 (camisade, goborage)
camisade- 1 (avinashv)
Ythill- 1 (JDodge)

Not voting (1): Ythill

5 to lynch.

@avinashv: thanks, I learned how useful it is with Cool-mod Ether

[avinashv]

@JDodge, #62 compared with #65? Yes, I agree. I'm not sure how much I put that down to him playing devil's advocate for his PBPA (as he should), but it's definitely something to think about.

@Ythill -- you haven't yet posting since my last post, but I see now that you're the last person left to vote. Based on what has happened since your PBPA, who would you vote for?

[JDodge]

And 64 combined altogether for one big happy family.

[camisade]

@camisade -- #72 was a big deal for me. You're essentially attacking him for having (and sticking) to an opinion. In #70 I most definitely agree with JDodge that you were fishing. Furthermore, JDodge is no longer at L-1, so you could happily vote for him, but you haven't done so yet. You just made my number 1 suspect.

Unvote, vote: camisade

.

I'm attacking him for sticking to a scummy opinion that's bad for the town. I'm not voting for him because it would put him at L-1. I don't want think he's lynch worthy. I'm fine with my vote on you because of your defense of JDodge.

I've played with JDodge before, and his play-style is...interesting . I never have a good read on him, because it seems that he's always a little scummy.

I don't think JDodge is a strong lynch candidate based on the reasons presented here---I don't particularly have a read one way or another on him, and these stats are just that...stats. It doesn't make him lynch-worthy at all.

You've never really posted any reasons why you think JDodge is so innocent.

Plus this argument against me seems sort of contradictory:

your post number 3:

FoS: camisade

. I'm your second most suspicious, but

Jdodge isn't lynch-worthy

? Then who's your most susipcious.

when you said the exact same thing later..

I don't think JDodge is a strong lynch candidate based on the reasons presented here---I don't particularly have a read one way or another on him, and these stats are just that...stats.

It doesn't make him lynch-worthy at all.

But I think that might just be you misunderstanding what I said earlier, which I explained but you never replied to.

[camisade]

By the way, I'm going to be gone Friday and back late Sunday. I'm going to my Aunt's wedding and probably won't have internet access.

[Ythill]

I wouldn’t call anything I’ve posted a PbPA. Just some questions to broaden the conversation.

FTR, I really don’t like the pressure to vote. We’re not in any hurry that I’m aware of, and I think I’m explicit enough in my opinions that you don’t need a marker. Remember that I was the first to non-random vote. It’s not like I’m fence sitting, I’m just busy. New job is taking 8-12 hours a day (16 last Monday) and I take care of a toddler when I’m not @ work.

Anyway…

It's the contradiction between the two posts which is glaringly obvious.

You must be misunderstanding me because there is no contradiction. I'll try to explain better. What I liked about you sticking to your guns regarding the theory argument was that it demonstrated that it really was your opinion. However, my question suggested that there may have been (town friendly) ulterior motives for bringing up your opinion.

Obviously, if it's your opinion, you've discussed it on MS before and know what kind of response is likely. Therefore I question whether you were actually trying to bring about a mass claim or whether, in part, you were hunting for scummy reactions to that suggestion. I still do not doubt that favoring mass-claims is actually your opinion.

Do you understand? Would I be safe in assuming, from your response, that the simple answer to my question is: there was no intent to flush out scum with your suggestion of mass-claim?

Why would I be suspicious of people just for not supporting an FBI claim?

I thought you were unclear in your accusation as to whether it was simply for agreement or for specific agreement with that point of view, because all you said was, “I'm gonna throw a second vote on avinashv for supporting JDodge.” I've not suggested you

should

be suspicious of anyone and I feel your answer is overly defensive.

I’ve gotta feed the kid. Will be back to further analyze and post my suspicions later tonight.

[Ythill]

Current opinions…

Dave isn’t lurking. He’s not being very original or wordy, but he’s commented on all relevant topics, defended against accusations, and answered questions quickly. I get the feeling that he is reading along and commenting when he deems it important, which is exactly what he said he was doing. So I find it suspicious that gob and avin have basically called him a lurker for answering honestly.

Other than the above, I don’t think gob’s done anything damning.

Jenter has put a lot of effort into proving JD wrong and therefore scum, which seems protown but honestly could be the machinations of a purposeful mislynch attempt.

I don’t like cam’s role fishing. Nor do I like the way he responded to the accusation with ad hom. Furthermore, I don’t like the way he said he was refraining from voting JD only because JD was @ L-1, but then failed to place his vote when JD had fewer votes.

Avin is really setting off my scum-sensors. He’s seriously buddying to JD, which I think is not indicative of JD’s alignment, because scum are more likely to target town with this behavior. I really don’t like his “your work is not your own” accusation against Jenter, because really what difference does it make? But Avin

is

scumhunting. Time will tell if it is an act.

Ironically enough, I’m starting to get a pro-town read on JD because of his overall tone and paranoia. I look forward to seeing what he will do now that the theory talk is at an end.

I’d like to see more hunting from Seth and Dave.

Summing up, my top suspects of the moment are avin and cam (in that order) but I really do think it’s too early for a definitive read. It is interesting that they are voting for each other; I don’t know what I think of that but I’ll throw another vote on my top suspect for now.

vote: avinashv

Please note that all of the above pertains to finding

mafia

. I am at a loss as to how we’re going to catch the SK because unless he’s an idiot he’ll be playing very pro-town.

[JDodge]

It's the contradiction between the two posts which is glaringly obvious.

You must be misunderstanding me because there is no contradiction. I'll try to explain better. What I liked about you sticking to your guns regarding the theory argument was that it demonstrated that it really was your opinion. However, my question suggested that there may have been (town friendly) ulterior motives for bringing up your opinion.

Obviously, if it's your opinion, you've discussed it on MS before and know what kind of response is likely. Therefore I question whether you were actually trying to bring about a mass claim or whether, in part, you were hunting for scummy reactions to that suggestion. I still do not doubt that favoring mass-claims is actually your opinion.

Do you understand? Would I be safe in assuming, from your response, that the simple answer to my question is: there was no intent to flush out scum with your suggestion of mass-claim?

I understood perfectly already. However, that is not really the main reason I am voting you - you have no logical reason nor basis to assume an ulterior motive in the first place. And your "Unless the SK is an idiot, he'll be playing pro-town" comment is also not pro-town.

[Jenter Brolincani]

Very short player by player readings list.

JDodge*
Inconsistent reasoning,poor arguments and stupid responses so far, I don't like what looks like rolefishing either. Read Scum.

goborage*
- Wrongly acccuses Dave of lurking (alothough this is really pretty minor, thought I'd mention it).
Apart from that rather piddlingly small point, I'm fine with gorborage's play. reading Town.

Dave*
Seems to be keeping up with the thread, not much content but his responses all seem to be perfectly fine to me... I'd like to see him put down a nice big post outlining all his suspicions. Reading Town.

Ythill*
Consistent, logical, and protown play. Town

camisade*
- Does what could be seen as rolefishing Dodge.
- He's skirmishing with avin, and not paying too much attention to the other players.
I'd like to see a Player by Player form camisade, but actually his play's not really too bad; I'm reading borderline.

Sethaniel*
He's actually posted vey little; get ome suspicions down, lad! Reading borrderline as there isn't enough either way.

avinashv*
- Buddies JDodge frm the start
- Says at one point where ther was a lot of pressure on Dodge;

I never have a good read on him, because it seems that he's always a little scummy.

I don't like this, it puts avin off the hook from saying anything decent and basically to mine eyes says that Dodge always looks a bit scummy, so his looking scummy now is now forgivable.
- Wrongly acccuses Dave of lurking (alothough this is really pretty minor, thought I'd mention it).
Reading Scum.

Jenter Brolincani*
Me town.

So town down to scum;

Me
Ythill
Gob
Dave
Cam/Seth
Avin
Dodge

[Ythill]

...you have no logical reason nor basis to assume an ulterior motive...

Can you show me where I've made that assumption? All I did was asked you a question. An appropriate answer could have been, "none." Besides, I've already given a logic basis for

suspecting there could be

ulterior motive, which is a different animal than assuming.

I see what you mean about the SK comment (I'm assuming you mean that it could help the SK to know this) but I didn't think of it that way. I believe our SK has no motivation to act scummy and I don't really think me pointing that out gives him less motivation.

[JDodge]

Answer the question, Jenter

[Jenter Brolincani]

I assume you mean the universl scumtell one;
Oh, yes, I think there is. Or rather, unless there are specific things you can treat as universally scummy things to do, there's never any real point scumhunting.

Among such things would be arguing in favour of a massclaim on d1 in an open setup game where it obviously doesn't have any real benefit.

[JDodge]

I assume you mean the universl scumtell one;
Oh, yes, I think there is. Or rather, unless there are specific things you can treat as universally scummy things to do, there's never any real point scumhunting.

Among such things would be arguing in favour of a massclaim on d1 in an open setup game where it obviously doesn't have any real benefit.

And herein lies the logical problem with your accusations.

In a vacuum, where everyone plays the same and puts off the same tells, there is a such thing as a universal scumtell. In this era of mafia as a whole, however, there has come a variation in playstyles that has lead to any universal scumtell being fairly useless. Anything that is a scumtell for one person is almost certainly a towntell for another nowadays.

Now when we consider this, you must ask yourself "Well then how do you scumhunt?". The answer to this is simple - you must know your opponent before you do battle with them. You must know what the other players will do in whatever situation. Said is the barrier between OK players and good players - good players know what their opponents will do in any given situation, and OK players will know what the majority will do in any given situation.

Therefore any usage of a universal scumtell has, in this day and age, become incredibly fallacious - an

argumentum ad populum

that says "because a majority of people do this as ____, then everyone who does this must be _____".

[JDodge]

EBWOP: Then again I suppose one must wonder if universal scumtells could be an exception as a social convention. Moral relativism and all that crap. Meta-ethical relativism would be a good argument for my side.

[Jenter Brolincani]

Right... nice crap, nice crap.

Basically you're saying that because you OFTEN make scummy moves, it becomes a towntell for you?

That doesn't work, sorry.

[camisade]

Now when we consider this, you must ask yourself "Well then how do you scumhunt?". The answer to this is simple - you must know your opponent before you do battle with them. You must know what the other players will do in whatever situation. Said is the barrier between OK players and good players - good players know what their opponents will do in any given situation, and OK players will know what the majority will do in any given situation.

But players can change their play style depending on what game they are playing in. If I acted a certain way as scum in game x, it doesn't mean that they'll act the same way in game y as scum.

[JDodge]

Right... nice crap, nice crap.

Basically you're saying that because you OFTEN make scummy moves, it becomes a towntell for you?

That doesn't work, sorry.

Nice strawman, read my damn post and then make your half-assed assumptions. Thanks.

But aren't universal scum/towntells also about people OFTEN making scummy moves?

Congratulations, from your perspective you have just disproven the entire game.

But players can change their play style depending on what game they are playing in. If I acted a certain way as scum in game x, it doesn't mean that they'll act the same way in game y as scum.

That's not the point. There is higher chance of consistency from game-to-game from a meta-tell than there is from game-to-game player-to-player from a "universal" tell.

Universal tells are tools of mediocrity for people too lazy to meta others and/or too dense to grasp the basic psychologies of mafia.

[Jenter Brolincani]

I have read your damn post. And yes, universal tells are about people OFTEN making scummy moves. That is why in situations like this one I look at a game ploy or action and think 'does this help us lynch scum'? If the answer is no, I ask 'is the player in question making an honest mistake'? And frankly you're too experienced for me to consider that arguing for an anti-town strategy incorrectly is an innocent slip.

You're also accusing every player on this site who doesn't metagame of being lazy... and that's a LOT of VERY good players you just called out.

You're trying to slip out of actually defending yourself by claiming that for you doing this is a towntell, and I don't buy it.

[Sethaniel]

First of all, sorry for not posting recently. I sprained my back and I'm on some really fun meds.

anyway:

unvote

@Ythill: As regards the quick L-1, my defense to that is "newbie." I haven't played much on this site, and didn't realize how involved the D1 discussions can be. I'm used to much quicker lynches (on other sites,) and my comments at the time of my JD vote were relevant to that.

@avinas: Your analysis/comments to me are just a restating of Ythill's, but with a much more accusatory/aggressive tone. You've done this several times with different people. It's almost as if you're looking for a bandwagon to join.

I'd vote avinashv, but now that I have a better understanding of how this site's games work, I'm more hesitant to move someone to L-1. So,

FoS avinashv

.

[JDodge]

I have read your damn post. And yes, universal tells are about people OFTEN making scummy moves. That is why in situations like this one I look at a game ploy or action and think 'does this help us lynch scum'? If the answer is no, I ask 'is the player in question making an honest mistake'? And frankly you're too experienced for me to consider that arguing for an anti-town strategy incorrectly is an innocent slip.

You're also accusing every player on this site who doesn't metagame of being lazy... and that's a LOT of VERY good players you just called out.

You're trying to slip out of actually defending yourself by claiming that for you doing this is a towntell, and I don't buy it.

I have never once made the claim that doing this is a towntell. I am claiming that it is a null-tell. Stop strawmanning me. Seriously.

And very good players do metagame to some extent. Tell me which "very good players" don't metagame and I will show you the most foolish, over-inflated egos on the entire site. Anyone who thinks they can get away from metagaming and still be a "very good player" needs to be dragged out into the middle of the field and shot.

There is no reason to not meta-game. Any player in any given role in any given game should be using any tool at their disposal to do their job effectively.

And quite frankly your personal line of logicks are flawed when you consider that any person can make a mistake (I have not. I still stand by what I said.) at any point - experience does not make you the all-mighty mistake-free deity of mafia.

[Jenter Brolincani]

But I still don't see how you can claim that a plan which decreases our statistical chances so badly and has other obvious disadavantages is a good plan.

And whether you are saying it is a null or town tell barely matters in this case. You are claiming it is not scummy, which it blatantly is.

There are also good reasons not to meta game. I don't consider metagaming a valid strategy in most cases.

Reasons;
a) Most of us have LIVES. I don't have the time to meta every other player in every game I play.
b) Players should always be trying to change their playstyle from game to game. Predicatable players lose games, to win you need to expect the unexpected, but keep the option open for the expected being true, thereby nullifying meta reads.
c) Continuing from b, players are in this game always trying to LOOK town. In different specific game this requires different styles and strategies. Unless you are keeping to a specific role traslated over form a specific setup, metaing is pointless as even a slight change in role can lead to major chages in gameplay. It's useless using a scum meta on a player who has Godfather role, because their role allows and rewards different playstyles.

I also never said people didn't make mistakes, I'm just saying that an EXPERIENCED player repeadedly making a BAD mistake when the logic has been pointed out to him/her doesn't look like an accident.

[JDodge]

It is no mistake. There is no accident. I indeed pushed and still stand by my massclaim idea.

A) Laziness.
B) Then that would defeat universal tells as well
C) That would also defeat universal tells

And I see how you backed away from the "very good players" thing, too. That tells me that you're fairly full of shit.