Large Normal 238 | Weiqi, Baduk, Go | Endgame

[MalcolmTucker]

Lot to catch up on here, will do a readthrough of what I've missed so far.

[MalcolmTucker]

Anyway, main reads so far. Wu seems incredibly suspicious so far to me and I'm surprised it took until p11 of the game for Nero to pick up on this. Basically all of their early posts were either jokes or non-comments which allowed them to appear active without getting too involved in the game and actually taking stances either way. If they come back mafia, worth looking at other players early on who had theories but didn't pick up on that.

I didn't necessarily suspect Tenebros on the basis of their early posts but found some of their later defences incredibly weak attempts to divert attention away from them without addressing accusations at-hand.

Yet seems solidly townie so far, if not would be a very bold strategy for mafia playing their first game on the site. Also appears to have a sort of absolute confidence in their reads which can often be townie, mafia maybe more likely to hedge their bets and avoid going too heavily in on someone who could later be confirmed town.

[MalcolmTucker]

Also TR'ing Frogster, their early question seemed so bizarre a theory for a mafia player to have, not sure why you'd draw attention to yourself with that. Also TR'ing Datisi at the moment, their frustrations re early accusations seemed fairly genuine to me at a point where players were keen to just get any theories or suspicions off the ground to get the game going.

[MalcolmTucker]

Alright, this wagon on Wu feels pretty weak. You can argue that "Well, they haven't really scumhunted, they've lurked, and yadda yadda yadda", but I mean it hasn't even been 24 hours since this game skyrocketed into an absurd twenty pages.

Not to mention, I'm getting some opportunistic vibes going on with these votes.

VOTE: Daitisi

Content to just push on players who are getting attention thrown their way and I haven't really gotten the impression that it's a town tell of "Pressuring for information" from them.

Couldn't the latter part of your argument apply to pretty much anyone there? If Wu isn't worthy of suspicion because the game remains in its early stages, why is anyone else? After all, unless someone is having a terrible game it's largely all gut-reads at this point. It's not as if Wu was piled on initially either, there was some lingering suspicion sparked about 10/11 pages into the game, all of which seemed based on pretty solid reasoning for me. This feels like quite a weak defence which conveniently ignores the points that were actually being made against Wu.

[MalcolmTucker]

I think we should mount the pressure on Datisi sooner rather than later.

Let’s get some wagons going, guys. I don’t want to stall around all day and move last minute and scramble when we can just go sheep sheep sheep.

This felt like a bit of an odd post, like Yeet's a little bit desperate to get on Datisi. It comes just a couple of posts after they were arguing Datisi was the most unpopular player in the game so far, so from that POV it's not as if there hasn't been a lot of pressure on them so far. What's with the absolute desperation here? I don't think there's any need to form a definitive wagon this early in the game, multiple players being suspected can be good for making/ruling out connections between players instead of putting all of our focus onto one individual player at the expense of others.

[MalcolmTucker]

I TR Skitter, but I’m pretty sure some of her townreads and all of her scumreads are wildly wrong (less sure on Eyes, but still).

Malcolm is a strong TR and that’s a good catch from him.

To follow up on this - for what it's worth I'd mostly been TR'ing Yeet until now and felt like their approach would've been quite strange and really bold from mafia. But that post just caught me as incredibly weird when going through, how can you simultaneously be frustrated there's not enough of a bandwagon on someone while insisting they've been the most mafia-read player so far? Yeet may still come out as town and that wouldn't surprise me but I dunno, just a really odd post to make.

[MalcolmTucker]

I TR Skitter, but I’m pretty sure some of her townreads and all of her scumreads are wildly wrong (less sure on Eyes, but still).

Malcolm is a strong TR and that’s a good catch from him.

To follow up on this - for what it's worth I'd mostly been TR'ing Yeet until now and felt like their approach would've been quite strange and really bold from mafia. But that post just caught me as incredibly weird when going through, how can you simultaneously be frustrated there's not enough of a bandwagon on someone while insisting they've been the most mafia-read player so far? Yeet may still come out as town and that wouldn't surprise me but I dunno, just a really odd post to make.

Any scumreads?

Mentioned in my first post that Wu is probably my main SR so far. I was catching up through the thread last night and was surprised it took until Page11 when Nero pointed out they'd done nothing with their slot so far despite there being plenty to talk about early on.

Found some of Tenebros responses to accusations against them particularly weak as well, deflecting from the actual points being made instead of addressing them directly.

[MalcolmTucker]

What's the bullet point case on datisi again?

Basically, Daitisi was one to throw their hat into the popular pressure of Wu and Monkey. It just came off as lazy and convenient to me.

Going back to this, it's not as if Datisi didn't have their own reads or suspicions early on though. If I remember correctly they'd had a go at both Tenebros and Skitter. There'd be no need for them to desperately conjure up some sudden mafia reads for having a lack of them so far.

Overall I feel like the mafia case for Datisi feels really disjointed and inconsistent so far and I'm not seeing it yet. Yeet's initial push early on was based on very little and Yeet was confidently making all sorts of big claims and giving major reads at an incredibly early point in the game with a confidence that probably wasn't warranted.

[MalcolmTucker]

What's the bullet point case on datisi again?

Basically, Daitisi was one to throw their hat into the popular pressure of Wu and Monkey. It just came off as lazy and convenient to me.

that's not my name

did you actually read this game or did you just read a bad cliffnotes version in the scum pt? i said that i find monkey scummy on the surface but that i'm aware it doesn't automatically make him scum since i know he's better than that. and i agreed with generalwu's iso being bad. that's it. this post is kinda implying that i did not do anything else this game up until that point (due to the "lazy" comment), which like??? push on tenebro? push on skitter? HE-LLO?

Pressure, throwing shade, what does it matter? My point is that he felt to give attention to him when Monkey was an obvious player of contention. If it were a "passing observation" it'd be one thing, but he felt that he had to get involved in the process with the pressure on Monkey. It wouldn't be such a red flag with me, but Datisi was also involved with the shit with Wu, which I felt was a weak push in the first place.

lol the backpedalling

again, i said the shitty iso up until that point didn't make him scum (he probably is scum, but not because of that part). and where did i "get involved"? i had like, at most ONE post on generalwu, and that post happened after i got shit for

ignoring

nero's case on wu! like

Mentioned before but yeah the idea you were bandwagoning on Wu/HumaneMonkey struck me as incredibly weird and bordered on a false representation of the game so far. You had plenty of reads early and weren't exactly a player who needed to conjure up a couple of nothing suspects out of nowhere to appear townie or anything. Felt like a bit of a reach.

[MalcolmTucker]

It is interesting that Datisi is pretty much universally very unpopular today (except in Aristeia’s eyes, but I worry she may be biased. Nevertheless I am still keeping her opinion very much in mind because I presume she knows him well).

Is he normally this unpopular at gamestart?

Why is it interesting? I would say Wu and Monkey have gotten more shade thrown on them than Daitisi has.

Alright, this wagon on Wu feels pretty weak. You can argue that "Well, they haven't really scumhunted, they've lurked, and yadda yadda yadda", but I mean it hasn't even been 24 hours since this game skyrocketed into an absurd twenty pages. Not to mention, I'm getting some opportunistic vibes going on with these votes.

VOTE: Daitisi

Content to just push on players who are getting attention thrown their way and I haven't really gotten the impression that it's a town tell of "Pressuring for information" from them.

What's the bullet point case on datisi again?

Basically, Daitisi was one to throw their hat into the popular pressure of Wu and Monkey. It just came off as lazy and convenient to me.

Wu needs to step the fuck up and start contributing to the game.

What's the bullet point case on datisi again?

Basically, Daitisi was one to throw their hat into the popular pressure of Wu and Monkey. It just came off as lazy and convenient to me.

I kind of feel like you've done the same with the pressure of Datisi

I'm not so sure about that. I think I may have been the first one to vote Datisi.

I dunno what to think of a lot of these posts. The impression you'd get from them is that Datisi has only had some passing suspicion while everyone has constantly been on Wu. But that's just...not really the case.

If you look through the vote tallies so far whenever the mod has summed them up, Datisi has been leading them all except from one, when Wu was briefly ahead. Datisi became the first early suspect of the game as a result of Yeet's early suspicion which was ultimately based on very little concrete info. Wu had nobody calling out their filler posts until p11.

Some of these posts just don't really match up with the reality of where the game has been at so far which I find odd.

[MalcolmTucker]

Reading through Nordom's style, I dunno if this is how they usually play it, but it also feels like there's a weird mix of some absolute statements and suspicions mixed with a lot of tentative questions directed at other players like their conviction stance on Datisi. A bit like they're content to be forceful and pushy with some players but not with others.

[MalcolmTucker]

Nordom, who is scum?

Uh, Daitisi I guess, but I'm waiting for them respond.

What's the bullet point case on datisi again?

Basically, Daitisi was one to throw their hat into the popular pressure of Wu and Monkey. It just came off as lazy and convenient to me.

If Datisi's replies in a satisfactory manner, I'm switching my vote to VP.

VOTE: nordom

gee, i wonder where i saw this kinda reasoning before

last two games i saw a post like this, it came from scum both times

(i'm not yet certain if i wanna end up on nordom, but this feels fitting to change now, both as a scumread on nordom and as a not-quite-scumread-anymore on skitter)

Hello, maf

Re 949 @Nordom, this doesn't read to me like a player you don't have a confident mafia read of.

[MalcolmTucker]

Found some of Tenebros responses to accusations against them particularly weak as well, deflecting from the actual points being made instead of addressing them directly.

Salutations, Mr. Tucker.

I addressed this and directed points at you. Are you choosing to ignore them and maintain your argument nonetheless?

Sorry where did you do this? I'm looking through your ISO and can't find any response from after my post. But I'm sure you'll appreciate the game has had plenty of posts so far and lots easily get missed in the shuffle...your defensiveness is noted. Happy to take any points you have onboard though and evaluate my stance and where I am from there.

[MalcolmTucker]

It started when Deas voted for me. My initial thought was "Oh, okay maybe this is just a mis-informed effort post by town"

But, when I started thinking about it, it feels like maf trying to cut me off at the pass before I can make any possible move towards them. Deas came out with that post after I repeatedly gave comments that were questioning them. I honestly feel like he was trying to pocket me, but saw it wouldn't be so easy and decided to take the initiative in voting me first.

This feels like...a bit of a reach. Like, how many votes did you have at the time? How strongly has Deas been pushing a bandwagon on you since? Not that it rules out Deas being mafia but it could quite easily just be someone who thinks you're suspicious casting a vote on you.

[MalcolmTucker]

It seems like you are simultaneously demanding that I be defensive and demanding that I go on an offensive in order to satisfy you.

Convincing you is not at the top of my priority list right now anyway, thank you. I am planning to engage with more people and trying to hunt, but you are the one who said I was being dismissive. Suspecting me for responding to it seems at odds with your point that I am suspicious for not responding to the suspicions of others.

Posts like this are kinda why I find you dodgy @tenebros. Like it's an absolutely nothing post in terms of rebuking suspicion against you while also trying to invert the entire discussion against the person who's potentially accused you of being mafia in the first place. It's deflection.

It's also odd that early in the game you accused Datisi of being overly sensitive and defensive about the initial push for them, and yet once heat was directed your way, you kinda moved between a similarly defensive stance and sometimes brushing off the heat with throwaway jokes about how exciting it was. There's an inconsistency there, like you don't want to appear too worried about any heat while also being aware you have to mount some sort of response to clear your name.

[MalcolmTucker]

i think? nordom is townie for going back and actually reading what my actions were (and openly contrasting them at the time i'm getting attacked)

i don't think a newer scum player decides to white knight me at this time when a couple of people have come out to voice their support of me

i think? malcolm* is townie lmfao

Like, down the line I could reverse my stance, but after pouring through the thread and through different people's ISOs, I'm still not particularly sure what the consistent case against you is meant to be at this point? It seems to be that you were either too defensive when you came under some pressure, which could apply to Tenebros, or that you jumped on the HumaneMonkey/Wu bandwagon, which isn't really true, and could apply to a few other players anyway who didn't say anything about Wu until Nero first mentioned him.

[MalcolmTucker]

Malcom, I think you're getting too over-excited in the pants from Datisi's lazy town read on you. You gotta dig deeper.

Sorry but this is an attempt to deflect and doesn't actually address my reads so far.

Datisi's TR on me pretty much literally just came in on me. Had no idea how they felt about me up until now.

After I first caught up on the game last night I said my main two mafia reads were Wu/Tenebros. Reading the latter as potential mafia based on early exchanges would likely, by process of elimination, mean Datisi is a lot less likely to be mafia as a result.

Like it's not as if I was sitting on the fence here and only decided to TR Datisi once they did the same with me?

[MalcolmTucker]

your defensiveness is noted.

Really? All I asked was for you to address questions I had asked you, and that is defensive?

I will look for the post.

You're implying I chose to ignore questions you asked me that, from looking back from your ISO, I can't find. Clearly I am not ignoring them, what basis would I have for doing that at such an early stage in the game? Your post felt unnecessarily defensive based on a brief read from me that you might be mafia...the very same reasoning you used to justify your suspicions of Datisi early on.

[MalcolmTucker]

Reading through Nordom's style, I dunno if this is how they usually play it, but it also feels like there's a weird mix of some absolute statements and suspicions mixed with a lot of tentative questions directed at other players like their conviction stance on Datisi. A bit like they're content to be forceful and pushy with some players but not with others.

i saw this too, when they did the cocky "mmhmmm" thing with skitter after a terrible argument they were super quick afterwards to be like "but don't worry i townread skitter" bc skitter is apparently kinda scary

Yeah, like at some points there are sequences of posts with lots of tentative questions which could be read as helpful townie not wanting to jump to conclusions...but then they'll go out right afterwards and say Deas is definitely mafia because of a vague theory concocted up out of nowhere that doesn't particularly make sense. At least someone like Yeet has been more conclusive when they've gone in with absolute theories and reads early on.

[MalcolmTucker]

I didn't necessarily suspect Tenebros on the basis of their early posts but found some of their later defences incredibly weak attempts to divert attention away from them without addressing accusations at-hand.

If you wish to call my defenses weak, you should cite what specifically was weak.

I don't understand how I can be making "defences" while also "not addressing accusations at hand." What accusations at hand would you like me to address? If you feel there are unanswered questions, you can ask them yourself, and if you really want to figure me out, I think you will do so.

Also TR'ing Frogster, their early question seemed so bizarre a theory for a mafia player to have, not sure why you'd draw attention to yourself with that. Also TR'ing Datisi at the moment, their frustrations re early accusations seemed fairly genuine to me at a point where players were keen to just get any theories or suspicions off the ground to get the game going.

Why is Frogster drawing attention to himself different from me drawing attention to myself? I don't disagree that it could be seen that way, but I want to hear your explanation.

I guess I am a tiny bit biased here but I think he's not as carefree as scum tho I haven't actually played with scum him this is just based on what he's said about his scum game previously.

You think Datisi is carefree this game? I think he seems quite upset about a small amount of pressure.

Here you go, Mr. Tucker.

My wider point was that you've facilitated between kinda jokingly shrugging off accusations and getting more defensive about them. Neither on its own is a particular mafia tell, the two of them together is worth noting.

[MalcolmTucker]

as a gay man,

i feel that phrases like "butt-buddies" is meant to put me down, to make gay people feel lesser. i don't deserve that.

so no. it is not acceptable and i do not need to get a thicker skin. please do not continue down this path. thank you.

Yeah, nah. You do need to get a thicker skin. My intent when I was typing "butt-buddies" wasn't "Let me take a dig at homosexual people" it was for the sake of levity.

I don't want to come off as an insensitive shithead, but where does the censorship end?

It was an unnecessary comment to refer to potential teammates, you've had it explained by someone why it might come across as offensive and now you're rambling on about censorship. Probably best to just acknowledge the word usage wasn't good and then we can move on.

[MalcolmTucker]

I didn't necessarily suspect Tenebros on the basis of their early posts but found some of their later defences incredibly weak attempts to divert attention away from them without addressing accusations at-hand.

If you wish to call my defenses weak, you should cite what specifically was weak.

I don't understand how I can be making "defences" while also "not addressing accusations at hand." What accusations at hand would you like me to address? If you feel there are unanswered questions, you can ask them yourself, and if you really want to figure me out, I think you will do so.

Also TR'ing Frogster, their early question seemed so bizarre a theory for a mafia player to have, not sure why you'd draw attention to yourself with that. Also TR'ing Datisi at the moment, their frustrations re early accusations seemed fairly genuine to me at a point where players were keen to just get any theories or suspicions off the ground to get the game going.

Why is Frogster drawing attention to himself different from me drawing attention to myself? I don't disagree that it could be seen that way, but I want to hear your explanation.

I guess I am a tiny bit biased here but I think he's not as carefree as scum tho I haven't actually played with scum him this is just based on what he's said about his scum game previously.

You think Datisi is carefree this game? I think he seems quite upset about a small amount of pressure.

Here you go, Mr. Tucker.

My wider point was that you've facilitated between kinda jokingly shrugging off accusations and getting more defensive about them. Neither on its own is a particular mafia tell, the two of them together is worth noting.

*Vacillated, not facilitated fs.

[MalcolmTucker]

Since I've not cast one yet, I'll go:

VOTE: GeneralWu

[MalcolmTucker]

wu hasn't done anything to make me think he's town (my meta read = he's always a fluffposter early, so that means nothing to me, and i don't see any reason to suspect him for it) but imo he's not a very useful place to push yet for the same reasons you said scorp isn't

I'm obviously not conclusive on him being mafia yet and want to hear more but happy for a placeholder vote to sit there for now.

[MalcolmTucker]

VOTE: Datisi

Post 39 feels unnatural to me.

Frogsterking, you may need to do some research on what to expect from this game.

tenebro on the other hand walked in, saw that i'm getting pressure, dropped a vote on me based on weak reasoning, and left.

Did you feel pressured by one vote?

Are you expecting strong reasoning so early in the game?

Datisi do you think I am meme-pushing you? Is that why you feel rather unaffected by my push on you? I can assure you that I am not memeing with this push on you.

anyone who thinks they can lockscum me on page 2 is lying either to themselves or to everyone else

you may not be meming but the push itself is a meme

I see a contradiction here. If you really were so unconcerned about this push, you would not need to dismiss it this way.

I'm already controversial. How exciting!

why does this excite you

Why shouldn't it? Everyone wants to talk about me! I'm drinking in the attention! Plus, I can't get any information from how players approach me if there is universal agreement about me. That's boring.

I am not sure how you got that idea from what I wrote, but okay.

It would be difficult for me to think any case against me had merit when I know it to be wrong.

I am not trying to be dismissive of anyone. But I do think it goes without saying that I do not agree with votes against me.

My hope was to be a good listener. It sounds like I'm not doing well.

It seems like you are simultaneously demanding that I be defensive and demanding that I go on an offensive in order to satisfy you.

Convincing you is not at the top of my priority list right now anyway, thank you. I am planning to engage with more people and trying to hunt, but you are the one who said I was being dismissive. Suspecting me for responding to it seems at odds with your point that I am suspicious for not responding to the suspicions of others.

Like. If you take issue with votes on you, then start a dialogue, like you literally stated yourself.

Thank you, but I plan to play the game my way. I'm sorry if that does not line up with your ideas about townie behavior.

VOTE: fua

This person chose to pick a fight with me because they perceived me as a weak player they could win an argument against, but their attack did not make sense. Furthermore, in the bottom of 266, they treat me like they know I am town.

some people not mentioned in your list haven't even posted?? excuse me for asking i guess

class starting back again, cheers

I don't like the way Datisi focused on nitpicking rather than the substance of Nero Cain's argument.

@tenebros, re your previous post to me

I'm not "crushing off" your post, I just didn't think it provided particularly strong reasoning for your play so far from a town POV.

In pretty much every post here you're basically either incredibly defensive, something you thought may have been a mafia tell for Datisi, you joke about being suspected, or you don't actually acknowledge any reasoning against you and try to twist it against the person accusing you to take the heat off without having to make any substantive points.

Like there's basically nothing in here which gives anyone a better idea as to your alignment either way despite there being plenty of posts, it's mostly deflection designed at directing suspicion onto someone else after you got some heat for a fairly weak first vote.

[MalcolmTucker]

Alright, this wagon on Wu feels pretty weak. You can argue that "Well, they haven't really scumhunted, they've lurked, and yadda yadda yadda", but I mean it hasn't even been 24 hours since this game skyrocketed into an absurd twenty pages.

Not to mention, I'm getting some opportunistic vibes going on with these votes.

VOTE: Daitisi

Content to just push on players who are getting attention thrown their way and I haven't really gotten the impression that it's a town tell of "Pressuring for information" from them.

this is why I decided to vote Nord. I felt like the defense was strange.

he's also being a hypocrite by saying that the votes on Wu were opportunistic (weren't there like only 2 or 3 SRS votes on him?) while joining the dats wagon

Nordom's play has been incredibly suspect but I dunno if they're actually mafia, feel like their play has been inconsistent to a degree you wouldn't expect from a mafia player perhaps wanting to be more careful and measured. But could just be inexperienced newbie struggling to blend in and then doubling down out of panic.

[MalcolmTucker]

Alright, this wagon on Wu feels pretty weak. You can argue that "Well, they haven't really scumhunted, they've lurked, and yadda yadda yadda", but I mean it hasn't even been 24 hours since this game skyrocketed into an absurd twenty pages.

Not to mention, I'm getting some opportunistic vibes going on with these votes.

VOTE: Daitisi

Content to just push on players who are getting attention thrown their way and I haven't really gotten the impression that it's a town tell of "Pressuring for information" from them.

this is why I decided to vote Nord. I felt like the defense was strange.

he's also being a hypocrite by saying that the votes on Wu were opportunistic (weren't there like only 2 or 3 SRS votes on him?) while joining the dats wagon

Nordom's play has been incredibly suspect but I dunno if they're actually mafia, feel like their play has been inconsistent to a degree you wouldn't expect from a mafia player perhaps wanting to be more careful and measured. But could just be inexperienced newbie struggling to blend in and then doubling down out of panic.

No, he's apparently not a newbie judging by his comments throughout the game. I really can't see him being partners with anyone that wouldn't tell him to shut up in the scum thread.

Fair enough, the game is large enough anyway that he could have probably pulled back a bit to allow the heat to drift onto someone else, far from being nailed on to go out even at this stage.

[MalcolmTucker]

Only just noticed Nordom was replaced, what a hill to let yourself go out on.

[MalcolmTucker]

Surely the central difference between Wu and Scorpious is post count? The two players aren't really the same here: Scorpious has been generally inactive so far with seven posts, by contrast Wu has almost 40 posts and yet hasn't said much in most of them. Indeed that's what got the Wu suspicions rolling initially; they made a whole load of posts early in the game without saying much despite plenty of active debate where they could have made their own reads.

[MalcolmTucker]

Datisi is the leading wagon I believe despite taking up a lot of space and actually playing the game. To my understanding No one townreads him except one person who knows him more intimately than others, it seems. He is not a polarizing slot as much as a universally southnull slot.

Wu seems to blend into the background more with less content/words ratio.

Monkey is a more polarizing slot rather than purely getting flak. I could be biased since I was one of the monkey defenders.

I think we should mount the pressure on Datisi sooner rather than later.

Let’s get some wagons going, guys. I don’t want to stall around all day and move last minute and scramble when we can just go sheep sheep sheep.

It is interesting that Datisi is pretty much universally very unpopular today (except in Aristeia’s eyes, but I worry she may be biased. Nevertheless I am still keeping her opinion very much in mind because I presume she knows him well).

Is he normally this unpopular at gamestart?

Re Yeet - I don't think they've been particularly scummy yet and their early assertions felt bold for a mafia who'd want to blend in, but this sequence of posts was really, really bad. At one moment claiming Datisi is the most heavily suspected player and then in the next post claiming not enough pressure is going on them. Which is it?

I do note Yeet's not posted at all since this sequence either. I dunno, if Yeet is mafia then they may have felt they went in too heavily in the early stages and want to sit back later. Although it could be more of a timezone thing depending on when they post, but that's around 17 hours now.

[MalcolmTucker]

In fairness to Skitter, Wu and Scorp prob aren't all that different in a way. Wu got suspected for active lurking and then disappeared. Wich I guess you could argue that is scum lurking it out? And Scorp just has done shit all and pressure never developed there.

Yeah to a point, just I think it's notable that whereas Scorp has been quiet in general (which I'd say is generally fairly NAI), Wu has actually made quite a few posts so far for a player who hasn't contributed much. Like having almost 40 so far is remarkable for a player who hasn't made an active contribution in terms of proper reads or pushes or questioning.

[MalcolmTucker]

I think he said something about liking Skitter but thats been all.

Yeah mild defence of Skitter is about as strong as he's given it so far. Like 10% of his posts are about Chairman Mao.

[MalcolmTucker]

I think he said something about liking Skitter but thats been all.

Yeah mild defence of Skitter is about as strong as he's given it so far. Like 10% of his posts are about Chairman Mao.

[MalcolmTucker]

^ Double post very much not intentional.

[MalcolmTucker]

STD - Has brought new ideas to the table and is putting in some effort to be visible and play the game. More of a townlean than full town, but still.

I would characterize this as exaggerated at best.

@tenebros, re your previous post to me

I'm not "crushing off" your post, I just didn't think it provided particularly strong reasoning for your play so far from a town POV.

In pretty much every post here you're basically either incredibly defensive, something you thought may have been a mafia tell for Datisi, you joke about being suspected, or you don't actually acknowledge any reasoning against you and try to twist it against the person accusing you to take the heat off without having to make any substantive points.

Like there's basically nothing in here which gives anyone a better idea as to your alignment either way despite there being plenty of posts, it's mostly deflection designed at directing suspicion onto someone else after you got some heat for a fairly weak first vote.

You are brushing it off, because I asked you to back up specific assertions and you have refused to do so.

You have called my defenses weak, and I want to hear what is weak about them. Tear me apart. Don't stand at a distance and repeat "nothing in here gives anyone a better idea." Explain how these posts are deflection rather than the addressing of accusations you and fua so greatly crave.

I continue to be baffled by your and fua's claims that I am at once too defensive and failing to address accusations. I want you to cite the accusations I have not addressed.

You now claim I am simultaneously not acknowledging reasoning against me -- again, what reasoning am I not addressing, and why am I obligated to address it -- while also twisting it against fua. How could I possibly twist an accusation against fua without acknowledging it? That is literally not possible.

Also, VOTE: fua

They are deflection because you literally continually avoided actually addressing any of the points anyone was making about you early in the game and instead tried to divert heat onto people who were accusing you with flippant remarks. I've outlined how you did that in the literal post you've quoted, I don't get what's so difficult about that?

[MalcolmTucker]

I kinda have this feeling that there might be scum defending me for free towncred.

See I kinda like this post, if you're town the logic is reasonable and it's fairly calm and measured and not too jumpy and defensive given the suspicion you've come under. Will need to hear more from you though going forward, because if you're mafia could just be playing it coolly...after all a frantic and big long post where you mount a defence of yourself after being relatively quiet so far could potentially only make you look worse. But if you are town, this logic is probably solid.

[MalcolmTucker]

who is even defending you

I don't have any posts to hand but there's definitely been a couple of posts who have been less keen on a Wu vote at this stage. Nobody is exactly mounting a huge defence but then suspicion of him has been sporadic - if still fairly consistent - anyway for the most part.

[MalcolmTucker]

Malcolm if Yeet isn't your top townread by the end of D1 would you be willing to compromise on them to meet the deadline?

Not yet no, I'm undecided on them, they've both simultaneously managed to appear very townie and kinda dodgy at certain points. The deadline is days off though, isn't it? No reason to push yet, this turn has been frantic and chaotic in a good way insofar as I think we're getting plenty of info that could prove useful later in the game.

[MalcolmTucker]

Since I'm willing to give Wu a fair hearing and I'm going to be fairly quiet activity wise tomorrow, for now:

UNVOTE: GeneralWu

But far from convinced yet, would just rather my placeholder wasn't sitting there potentially into Saturday if I don't get the chance to say much beyond tomorrow morning at a push.

[MalcolmTucker]

One more thing I meant to mention in my previous post: I am not sure about Wu being scum anymore. I thought his reaction to being accused of fillering, which was to make one game post and then continue to filler, showed a mildly town lack of concern about how he is perceived.

Yeah as I suggested he could be playing it coolly at this point considering suspicion on him has been far from definitive, but he's not exactly seemed panicked mafia in his last couple of posts.

[MalcolmTucker]

who is even defending you

I don't have any posts to hand but there's definitely been a couple of posts who have been less keen on a Wu vote at this stage. Nobody is exactly mounting a huge defence but then suspicion of him has been sporadic - if still fairly consistent - anyway for the most part.

eh this is why i said a long time ago that i didn't think seeing his response to pressure was going to be that useful -- he responded to pressure in pretty much the same way in both his scum and town games (basically like this, pretty nonchalant)

That's fair enough, I obviously don't have the advantage of a meta on him yet.

[MalcolmTucker]

Apologies for inactivity before the elimination, should be around a bit more now. Done my catching up in the past couple of days.

[MalcolmTucker]

@Yeet can you explain your discrepancies between posts 1214, 1629, 2002 and post 2218.

Initially you push Fua over a pretty consistent period of time, and yet after their vigilante reveal you then indicate you got a vibe they may have had their given role? If that was the case, why were you pushing Fua as potential mafia so consistently?

I'm really not sure what to make of your slot so far in general. Early on you struck me as very town - you were boldly making sometimes baseless accusations without any care as to how you came across but that helped progress the game. But it's notable that your playing style has since changed a fair bit, you seem a bit more tentative now when it comes to making outright accusations despite us having more to go on. Your play feels deliberately more measured and careful, but I'm not sure why that is...after all you didn't necessarily come under a lot of heat for your early posts.

[MalcolmTucker]

I was heavily critical of them in turn one but tenebros is coming across as more town for me as the game goes on. Post 1460 struck me as a genuine bit of townie frustration. Much as plenty of players got annoyed at MathBlade after their entry into the game, this didn't particularly feel like the type of post a mafia team member would make toward pretty much the first fully confirmed town player of the game.

I think some players have since used the heavy post-load and the fast-moving pace of the game to disguise actually giving reads or to also appear like frustrated townies (primarily Scorpious), but tenebros felt kinda genuine to me with this, was a bit of a gut-feeling at the time but a few of their posts since have felt more town too.

[MalcolmTucker]

VP's continual theory that Nero/Wu may have been mafia together and that Nero was potentially backing away from Wu because they were teammates really made no sense at all to me but they notably kept pushing it, in posts 1339, 1344, 1939 and 2128 to give just some examples.

It just doesn't chime. Nero was basically the first player in the game to mention that Wu was not contributing a heavy amount and that they were coming across as suspicious for it. I don't see why there'd be any benefit to throwing your teammate into the mix like that early in the game...in retrospect without that post it's quite possible there'd have never been a bandwagon against Wu at all in turn one.

I dunno, the way VP just kept pushing this felt strange, as if it was potential mafia who'd come up with a theory to push Nero/Wu and who felt like they couldn't drop it without seeming suspicious for doing so.

[MalcolmTucker]

To add to the above, that's not to say Nero can't end up being mafia further down the line if VP does end up being town. But the idea of Nero/Wu together never worked. In fact Nero being mafia who pushed an easy town slot to potentially get rid of but being reluctant to go ahead with it (with solid reasoning for doing so early on) would arguably make more sense than them being teammates. Unless you're actually mafia yourself and know that's not the case.

[MalcolmTucker]

I see no reason why today shouldn't end in the death of 1 of VP, Eyes, Skitter or April.

VOTE: VP

I mean he's prob scum anyways but he's already claimed so low risk, high reward

What's your read on Eyes so far? Not been a whole lot there, struggling to figure out if their frustration with the high post count is genuine town frustration or not.

[MalcolmTucker]

I was heavily critical of them in turn one but tenebros is coming across as more town for me as the game goes on. Post 1460 struck me as a genuine bit of townie frustration. Much as plenty of players got annoyed at MathBlade after their entry into the game, this didn't particularly feel like the type of post a mafia team member would make toward pretty much the first fully confirmed town player of the game.

I think some players have since used the heavy post-load and the fast-moving pace of the game to disguise actually giving reads or to also appear like frustrated townies (primarily Scorpious), but tenebros felt kinda genuine to me with this, was a bit of a gut-feeling at the time but a few of their posts since have felt more town too.

Seems we are moving in opposite directions.

I would challenge the point re: MathBlade, as I think criticising MathBlade would seem pretty safe to scum with almost everyone doing it.
Honestly, it seems sort of odd to me that uninformed Tenebro-town would criticise MathBlade in the same way given their expressed lack of confidence at other points.

Fair enough, I'll take a more detailed ISO look at some point and see where I stand on it. I had heavy suspicion in turn one but like I said a few posts changed my mind a bit. But your post above feels genuine and makes a solid case.

[MalcolmTucker]

Why does me not claiming who I shot at matter? Who the vig shoots isn’t alignment indicative at all.

I'm warier than some to get rid of you right away, but why would you not tell us? It's useful for town transparency. If you're mafia, you also get away with not having to justify your choice from a town POV. Just tell us.

[MalcolmTucker]

Fire is probably my top TR for what it's worth, in alignment with them on most things but just generally got a good thought process going on and logical approach.

[MalcolmTucker]

Fire is probably my top TR for what it's worth, in alignment with them on most things but just generally got a good thought process going on and logical approach.

Not Mathblade?

Top TR aside from confirmed townies. That's less a TR considering it seems pretty definitive at this point given the night turn.

[MalcolmTucker]

Fua's frustration in leaving the game seems quite genuine, although happy to be countered on that.

[MalcolmTucker]

please direct me to your planet where there are no jobs and limitless time for mafia..

I'm not reading 50 pages, got a question? ask I'll find the context and answer..

you guys will turn me into your new wagon and we will have a fun time..

I get reading back through the whole thread is difficult but you've made 50 posts and it feels like a significant number of them have either been off-topic or moaning about there being too many posts, the latter of which doesn't particularly help. "I don't have any specific reads or thoughts because the game is too busy" looks like a convenient way to just avoid having any actual reads, you could've used the time you've spent complaining about this to skim through someone's ISO or whatever.

[MalcolmTucker]

^ Almost 50 posts, re the above, to be accurate.

[MalcolmTucker]

Hood people what happened in your hood overnight?

Nero pushed me to talk about reads. I told him I'm not doing that in a hood with a potential scum, and that it was kinda antitown to push it repeatedly.

That was all.

I doubt the hood is gonna get used much until we descum it

Your reads are surely going to be seen when you post them here anyway? Like, I get playing your cards close to your chest sometimes, but mafia are going to find out what a lot of us think because that is a natural condition of playing the game, and you can basically repeat whatever was being said in your hood anyway.

[MalcolmTucker]

I don't think Cape pushing the hammer on Wu (whether intentional or unintentional) is particularly problematic given lots of players spent basically 10-20 pages desperate for the turn to come to an end. Wu was clearly seen as the strongest consistent candidate by that point for elimination despite uncertainties over their role.

[MalcolmTucker]

Furthermore, in the bottom of 266, they treat me like they know I am town.

Can you give me specifics of what you're seeing there?

I think we should consolidate on one of HEM/Tenebro to push pressure and advance game state rather than splitting

Isn't town's biggest power early in large games driving dueling wagons? That's how you get good info for future use. Why do you think we should focus on one and not the other here?

I scumread Tenebro hard based on 116 and the attempt to defuse suspicion by essentially saying it’s just a bandwagon

I don't remember doing this. What do you mean?

“I’m so popular, everyone is looking at me” is basically a degradation of the reason to actually suspect you and dismisses it as a trend rather than a veritable case.

I am not sure how you got that idea from what I wrote, but okay.

It would be difficult for me to think any case against me had merit when I know it to be wrong.

Yes, but I would think you would at least go and defend your position or acknowledge the votes on you. Your playstyle so far has been very dismissive and I find that that typically comes from scum.

Fua looks objectively terrible in this exchange, and isn't even scumreading Tenesbro's 116 for the correct reason (which is that reads like pocketing of Yeet.)

Also, VOTE: fua

Vote Wu or HEM

Perhaps I am able to ascertain why you'd think that. You may have a point.

VOTE: Dragons

Vote Wu or HEM.

Large games should consolidate D1 as fast as possible or we will end up at 100+ pages for D1 and that's just annoying later in the game.

I don't want to right now. If you want me to consider a popular vote target, wait for Nordom's replacement.

That's not Wu or HEM.

Large games are about compromise early on and moving things forward. We will get more info out of running up these Jabronis than we will out of you single voting dragons.

Be a team player!

I'd be interested to know where VP's thoughts stand on tenebros so far, and vice versa. Looking through their ISO there are a lot of soft interactions here without much of an indication as to what VP or tenebros necessarily think of each other as individual players. Like there isn't really a strong defence of tenebros while under pressure, but there's an attempt to paint Fua in a bad light after an exchange with tenebros, for example.

[MalcolmTucker]

I don't think Cape pushing the hammer on Wu (whether intentional or unintentional) is particularly problematic given lots of players spent basically 10-20 pages desperate for the turn to come to an end. Wu was clearly seen as the strongest consistent candidate by that point for elimination despite uncertainties over their role.

That's not why he hammered though. He stated extensive reasons that were anything but "this is a consensus read for the day".

Also, why hammer without asking for a claim?

I feel like Wu would have surely claimed long before the actual hammer was dropped. They'd been under suspicion for most of the game and remained prime target by that point.

[MalcolmTucker]

Hood people what happened in your hood overnight?

Nero pushed me to talk about reads. I told him I'm not doing that in a hood with a potential scum, and that it was kinda antitown to push it repeatedly.

That was all.

I doubt the hood is gonna get used much until we descum it

Your reads are surely going to be seen when you post them here anyway? Like, I get playing your cards close to your chest sometimes, but mafia are going to find out what a lot of us think because that is a natural condition of playing the game, and you can basically repeat whatever was being said in your hood anyway.

There is no incentive for me to give scum information while they are making their NK.

As you say, my reads will be posted in thread. Why are you defending Nero exactly?

What info were you likely to give them that was going to influence their kill? Seems clear they were either going to go for one of the masons or vigilante (if Fua was telling the truth).

[MalcolmTucker]

I'd be interested to know where VP's thoughts stand on tenebros so far, and vice versa. Looking through their ISO there are a lot of soft interactions here without much of an indication as to what VP or tenebros necessarily think of each other as individual players. Like there isn't really a strong defence of tenebros while under pressure, but there's an attempt to paint Fua in a bad light after an exchange with tenebros, for example.

I haven't found tenebros all that scummy, and fua did look like shit in that interaction, as well as for not killing/not claiming target this morning.

You seem very eager to shade me on flimsy reasons.

I don't think my main reason as stated earlier is particularly flimsy - you regularly claimed Nero was suspect for pushing Wu without voting for them despite the fact Nero/Wu weren't going to end up being teammates since Nero was the first person to shade Wu when there was no heat on them, an illogical strategy for two mafia to pursue. I found that incredibly strange and it felt a bit like you were potentially pursuing that line because it would have been odd to back off.

[MalcolmTucker]

I feel like Wu would have surely claimed long before the actual hammer was dropped. They'd been under suspicion for most of the game and remained prime target by that point.

General play is to demand a claim when someone is E-1. You think he should have just claimed on his own?

At what point should he have done that?

Probably around a point where it became apparent he was under constant suspicion and was likely to be eliminated. If you're at the point of hammer then, well yeah, that wouldn't be a bad time to reveal certainly. MathBlade and Fua did it for much less. We can debate the logic of their exact timing but I don't think anyone thought their respective claims were completely ridiculous or harmful to the town.

[MalcolmTucker]

What info were you likely to give them that was going to influence their kill? Seems clear they were either going to go for one of the masons or vigilante (if Fua was telling the truth).

*claimed vigilante.

But why is that so obvious? Masons aren't necessarily an early game threat to scum (though they need to be dealt with).

As far as info, scum can make kills that play to people's biases and reads. There is no incentive for me to give them any information at that point.

What are you even arguing exactly? You think I'm scummy because I wouldn't put my reads in the hood last night?

I don't think this part is particularly scummy no, I'm just unsure Nero being keen to hear some reads is all that much scummier either. How do we even know there's mafia in the hood? I'd get the concern later in the game but turn one it was always likely to be one of the role revealed players. I'm open to persuasion re Nero in general, I don't believe this is particularly great evidence.

[MalcolmTucker]

broke: skitter v fua is svs
woke: baltar v malcolm is svs

(no, i don't actively scumread either of them atm, but this convo feels kinda odd at least from skimming... like, discussing things in a more detailed manner than it would be natural to? idk lole)

Eh I don't reckon I'd have any incentive to push mafia VP at the moment, they've come in for some heat but not enough for it to be beneficial for a prospective teammate to come in and put pressure on them.

[MalcolmTucker]

I found that incredibly strange and it felt a bit like you were potentially pursuing that line because it would have been odd to back off.

Actually my point made total sense and what you're arguing is dumb. If you think I'm afraid to switch positions as scum, you don't know my game at all.

Nero banging for Wu's yeet for half the day and then suddenly not being interested for extremely vague meta reasons when the Wu wagon got real is Hella suspicious on its face.

Nero was the first person to throw any shade on Wu at all. Reading the game early on I found it strange how nobody commented on the fact Wu was regularly posting but giving no reads or opinions. Nero is the first to point this out, and it's the first, initial point in the game that Wu came under any pressure. From there it never really quite went away fully, leading to the eventual elimination. If the two of them had been teammates then this would have quite frankly been dreadful play and this should have been apparent in day one.

I'm perfectly open to the idea Nero saw an easy day one target and pushed that on solid evidence without fully sticking to it, and there's a case to be made this is what happened if you're town, but from your POV this argument would only work if you were convinced Wu was actually town. There was just no logical means by which they were on the mafia team together barring a massive error by Nero wherein he stuck his teammate into the shit when there were plenty of other quiet or inactive players to target.

[MalcolmTucker]

not gonna talk too much about fua atm since the slot is not currently in the game, but if i were a vig and my kill didn't go through my first thought would be that someone in my poe got scared. is that a fair thing to think, yay or nay? would scum roleblock a vig kill that was likely going to hit town just to cause confusion and avoid confirming the vig?

anyway i thought it was kinda weird that fua didn't jump to that thought right away, or even consider it at all as far as i can tell. but then, their "oh there's a doctor or a roleblocker, wait no, doctor doesn't make sense" reads kinda pure immediate reaction thought process to me? like if they're scum they know already the kill isn't going through and have probably planned out what they're gonna say. the moment of confusion feels kinda towny to me, but maybe that's faked, idk

I don't think their refusal to say who they targeted helped at all, but it does feel kinda weird in retrospect how keen some people were to immediately jump all over them being mafia when a blocked kill is feasible. Although as I say once they continually refused to say who they targeted the suspicion started to feel a lot more understandable.

[MalcolmTucker]

I do not think it makes sense to go after the fua slot today and I think it's possible some maf were hopeful they could get that through. I am becoming a little suspicious of skitter, even though I don't want to as she is really the only player who has taken a firm stance in support of me when I believe scum see me as a mislim they would like to achieve.

It is interesting to me that the scum kill shows no fear of a doctor whatsoever. At least, I would think HEM would be the most obvious save.

In retrospect is it not possible, if we have a town doctor, that they would have saved Fua if they told the truth in their claim? Vigilante would be more valuable than a mason from that POV due to their immediate powers to take someone out? Mafia may have felt more confident going for a confirmed mason from that POV.

[MalcolmTucker]

Eyes and Scorpious have gotten plenty of flak for doing nothing. Why hasn't Dragons? I realize they made one or two slightly townie sounding posts, but the extent to which everyone has completely ignored them does not sit right with me.

Post counts and complaints about the speed of the game has been what's made me find Scorpious a bit more suspicious. They've repeatedly shied away from giving reads and have regularly made posts claiming there's too much to catch up on, but instead of then trying to catch up they are then making big, lengthy posts about stuff that has nothing to do with the game at all. They've made almost 50 posts...that's quite a lot and not exactly inactivity to the same degree as STD.

I'm not against giving STD more attention further down the line, because they've certainly done nothing to clear their name, but would potentially feel like a bit of a wasted vote this turn where we don't necessarily learn anything.

On Eyes I'm kinda neutral. Their initial frustration seems genuine but again there's been nothing there to rule them out yet.

[MalcolmTucker]

You know an apology for “miscounting” would go a long way. You haven’t shown any regret for quick hammering.

This is a weird post. You, among a number of other people, were keen for turn one to be over and for us to get the game moving. Wu had been given plenty of time to claim and should've known writing was on the wall. Players suddenly being so reticent about the elimination they were pushing, or complaining about an elimination in general when they were willing for the turn to end, is not particularly good.

[MalcolmTucker]

I think a lot of Cape's reasoning in their post on the previous page is solid to be honest. Articulates the inconsistency and incoherence of the whole Wu/Nero/VP better than I could.

[MalcolmTucker]

You know an apology for “miscounting” would go a long way. You haven’t shown any regret for quick hammering.

This is a weird post. You, among a number of other people, were keen for turn one to be over and for us to get the game moving. Wu had been given plenty of time to claim and should've known writing was on the wall. Players suddenly being so reticent about the elimination they were pushing, or complaining about an elimination in general when they were willing for the turn to end, is not particularly good.

Please tell me where in my ISO I wanted D1 to be over…?

Earlier in the game you were keen to get a wagon going on Datisi. You were then fine to jump on the Wu bandwagon to, again, help keep the game moving. If you didn't want the turn to end then I apologise for reading you wrong, but the impression I've very much gotten is you were fine for us to push ahead with an elimination.

[MalcolmTucker]

Perhaps I am able to ascertain why you'd think that. You may have a point.

VOTE: Dragons

Vote Wu or HEM.

Large games should consolidate D1 as fast as possible or we will end up at 100+ pages for D1 and that's just annoying later in the game.

THIS right here is why my sequence on Datisi was not wrong. We need to get things moving and start pushing in this kind of game since opinions will be far more fragmented. The probability that close to half the people in this game have the same top scumread is far lower than in a smaller game. That means we need to compromise and not always vote our top scumread at any given point. We don't want to dilly dally the whole day and scramble with no info at the end. I am saying this now so that we do not get caught in problems down the line. Just to put my money where my mouth is, I will VOTE: humaneatingmonkey, even though my last impression of him is light town (although I feel more nullish on him anyway).

Yes, Aristeia's townread on Datisi gives me some pause on him being scum. No, that doesn't mean I still don't want more pressure on him and to run him up. If people want to start voting Datisi again I will gladly switch back. And me pointing out that I didn't think many people at the time had a favorable opinion on him.

I haven't fully caught up (nor do I intend to in such a large game) but it seems things have changed. It is concerning that people are using my recent activity to discredit the townie vibes that I gave earlier. It is possible that this is scum motivated to keep the PoE wider, but it seems more likely to me that this is just poor activity logic.

Here is a point on day one when both Yeet/VP argue for pushing the game forward to the point where they'd basically be keen for an elimination so the thread doesn't get too clogged. But now Cape is suspicious for hammering someone they were largely fine to eliminate all along.

Also of course this has Yeet voting for a now night-eliminated mason even though they didn't really believe they were mafia at the time. Hardly the approach of players fine for a round to drag out to be ultra-careful and not end up forcing a role reveal.

Increasingly don't think there's any reason the two players here can't be mafia together.

[MalcolmTucker]

Wanting to move the game is not the same as wanting D1 to be over immediately.

You were literally in agreement with a post earlier in the game that said it was bad for the game to reach 100-odd pages without getting to a conclusion. If you were fine with dragging the game out longer at a later point that's a clear and deliberate shift.

[MalcolmTucker]

I don’t townread this slot and honestly I’m sort of running out of places I want to vote.

are too many of them your partners?

I'm also unsure how a player who was basically making absolute claims on who was mafia about two hours into the game is now completely stumped as to who to vote for over 2,000 posts into the game with a multitude of interactions to base their views on. They also conveniently haven't actually presented a scum-case for me at all because they presumably don't have one and feel their suspicions need to go somewhere. Yeet's early approach is still making me wary to be completely certain about their mafia leanings but it's looking more and more convincing, their entire style and approach has increasingly changed as the game has gone on.

[MalcolmTucker]

I don’t townread this slot and honestly I’m sort of running out of places I want to vote.

are too many of them your partners?

I'm also unsure how a player who was basically making absolute claims on who was mafia about two hours into the game is now completely stumped as to who to vote for over 2,000 posts into the game with a multitude of interactions to base their views on. They also conveniently haven't actually presented a scum-case for me at all because they presumably don't have one and feel their suspicions need to go somewhere. Yeet's early approach is still making me wary to be completely certain about their mafia leanings but it's looking more and more convincing, their entire style and approach has increasingly changed as the game has gone on.

Information has changed since 2 hours into the game, funnily enough. And that was early game.

What fundamentally changed though? It's largely been acknowledged that a lot of fairly useless posts were made at around the middlepoint of turn one and that for a while the game wasn't necessarily going anywhere. By the time Cape hammered it was increasingly apparent no other consensus wagon was likely to follow. Like, you were on that wagon, despite - so far as I can remember, please correct me if wrong - not exactly being all gungho for Wu yourself. I still don't see why it was suddenly a good thing from your POV and from VP's POV for the game to be stretching on when early you were clearly keen on getting wagons going.

[MalcolmTucker]

Go is often said to have three rules, of which the first is capturing stones. The four intersections connecting to a stone are it's liberties. If your opponent surrounds all the liberties of a stone it is captured. A stone with only one liberty left is in

atari

, which is where the game company get it's name from,

---

Official Votecount 1.1

Datisi (2): skitter30, tenebrousluminary

[E-8]

tenebrousluminary (2): Datisi, fireisredsir

[E-8]

skitter30 (1): Yeet
Yeet (1): Frogsterking

Not Voting (13): Scorpious, Save The Dragons, Nero Cain, DeasVail, MalcolmTucker, fua, Eyes without a face, VP Baltar, Aristeia, Cape90, Nordom, humaneatingmonkey, GeneralWu

With 19 players alive, it takes 10 votes to achieve an eliminaton.

Day 1 will end in (expired on 2022-03-12 05:15:00).

Stones connected horizontally and vertically form groups. To capture a group all the liberties of all the stones need to be taken.

---

Official Votecount 1.2

Datisi (4): tenebrousluminary, skitter30, Yeet, humaneatingmonkey

[E-6]

humaneatingmonkey (3): Aristeia, Cape90, Nero Cain
tenebrousluminary (2): fireisredsir, fua
skitter30 (1): Datisi
Yeet (1): Frogsterking

Not Voting (8): Scorpious, Save The Dragons, DeasVail, MalcolmTucker, Eyes without a face, VP Baltar, Nordom, GeneralWu

With 19 players alive, it takes 10 votes to achieve an eliminaton.

Day 1 will end in (expired on 2022-03-12 05:15:00).

There was an error in this vote count where

Yeet

was listed as voting

skitter30

. It was fixed as of post 498

The second rule of go is the suicide rule. You cannot play in a position that reduces the liberties of one of your groups to zero, resulting in it being captured.

---

Official Votecount 1.3

GeneralWu (4): Nero Cain, fua, VP Baltar, tenebrousluminary

[E-6]

Datisi (3): skitter30, Yeet, humaneatingmonkey
tenebrousluminary (2): fireisredsir, Save The Dragons
humaneatingmonkey (2): Aristeia, Cape90
skitter30 (1): Datisi
Yeet (1): Frogsterking

Not Voting (6): Scorpious, DeasVail, MalcolmTucker, Eyes without a face, Nordom, GeneralWu

With 19 players alive, it takes 10 votes to achieve an eliminaton.

Day 1 will end in (expired on 2022-03-12 05:15:00).

It isn't suicide to play a stone that captures your opponents stones, even if it has no liberties before the capture removes those stones.

---

Official Votecount 1.4

Datisi (5): skitter30, Yeet, humaneatingmonkey, Nordom, tenebrousluminary

[E-5]

humaneatingmonkey (3): Aristeia, Cape90, VP Baltar
Yeet (2): Frogsterking, Nero Cain
skitter30 (1): Datisi
Eyes without a face (1): Save The Dragons
tenebrousluminary (1): fireisredsir
GeneralWu (1): fua

Not Voting (5): Scorpious, DeasVail, MalcolmTucker, Eyes without a face, GeneralWu

With 19 players alive, it takes 10 votes to achieve an eliminaton.

Day 1 will end in (expired on 2022-03-12 05:15:00).

The third rule of go is

ko

which prevents situations where a player immediately returns the board back to the previous position. In the image below if you have just played one of the red marked stones your opponent could not immediately capture back.

---

Official Votecount 1.6

Datisi (5): skitter30, Yeet, humaneatingmonkey, Nordom, tenebrousluminary

[E-5]

Nordom (3): fireisredsir, DeasVail, Nero Cain
humaneatingmonkey (2): Aristeia, Cape90
fua (1): VP Baltar
skitter30 (1): Datisi
Eyes without a face (1): Save The Dragons
Yeet (1): Frogsterking
GeneralWu (1): fua

Not Voting (4): Scorpious, MalcolmTucker, Eyes without a face, GeneralWu

With 19 players alive, it takes 10 votes to achieve an eliminaton.

Day 1 will end in (expired on 2022-03-12 05:15:00).

click here for joined mod iso.

Apologies for the big quotes, but I'm really interested in how the Datisi heat suddenly died off after a while. Like, there's obviously some confirmed town in here, but I always felt like the Datisi heat was pretty poorly constructed and didn't work. Increasingly I'm wondering if there's some solid logic here in the idea that some mafia themselves started to realise it was a rubbish wagon and directed their attentions elsewhere before it got them into more trouble.

[MalcolmTucker]

What was ever actually wrong with Datisi's posts though? Like I'm still not seeing it.

[MalcolmTucker]

Why on earth did vig shoot Fua

[MalcolmTucker]

Why on earth did vig shoot Fua

Not Fua, fire sorry

[MalcolmTucker]

I am Fua lol

Yeah typo from me.

[MalcolmTucker]

So if I'm understanding correctly, either Fire is mafia with roleblocker, or Fua/Enchant is lying?

If so I'm leaning towards the latter here. I get Fire could be playing a very strong mafia game but they've come across townie as feck to me. And while I can see a vig having a genius call and catching a good player out, Fua's game was a bit all over the place...a Fire kill just seems so baffling from that POV.

[MalcolmTucker]

Math, i'm not opposed to a Scorpious wagon because it's not like we are losing some asset if we're wrong. It feels a little low information even if we hit correctly, but I'll think about it. His vote on me for no reason doesn't make a lot of sense.

We did the "no biggie if we're wrong" wagon yesterday. Now we need to be right.

From this POV I don't think your STD vote makes much sense. Like they could be mafia, but they've posted so little that you nor any of us don't have much to go on there beyond a vibe. That's a pretty big day two risk, no?

[MalcolmTucker]

So if I'm understanding correctly, either Fire is mafia with roleblocker, or Fua/Enchant is lying?

If so I'm leaning towards the latter here. I get Fire could be playing a very strong mafia game but they've come across townie as feck to me. And while I can see a vig having a genius call and catching a good player out, Fua's game was a bit all over the place...a Fire kill just seems so baffling from that POV.

There are a lot more possibilities than you have just listed. Fua was not clear about who they would shoot. There's also a possibility of a mafia doctor or BP, although I would rate that as unlikely.

Cool, just trying to gauge. From a vig POV I personally feel like Fire was such a bad choice unless Enchant's slot instinctually had it right.

[MalcolmTucker]

Going for Scorp today is lazy. I think scum would love nothing more than for us to waste another day.

VOTE: VPB, but I think Yeet has an agenda today too.

Well, I am actually scumhunting and asking questions to determine people's alignments. Big agenda energy.

What are you doing btw?

Didn't you vote dragons? Is that fundamentally different from a Scorp wagon?

Agree with you on this. Fine with tenebros sitting a vote on STD now to put on some pressure, but it's ultimately going for an incredibly low activity poster and the moment you vote for someone you ideally want to convince others to do the same. If not you aren't even putting any pressure on said player. Weird contradiction in tenebros' play.

[MalcolmTucker]

I don't think either Scorpious or STD have done anything to particularly clear themselves as of yet, and I kinda agree with Deas' post above that Scorpious' reluctance to accept why they might be suspected doesn't look great.

But I'm kinda wary on eliminating either at the moment. A lot of the suspicion of them still feels more vibes-based than evidence-based right now. That's fine on turn one when you lack concrete info to eliminate someone but I don't think it's necessarily how we should be pursuing turn two. It feels like a somewhat safe vote...if they come back clean then the people who voted them can say they just felt bad and more active posters directing traffic get to influence the game while maybe being mafia.

I'd be interested in how they approach turn three if they get through. Both have been more active but if they go silent after being in the clear for a round then that's very suspect.

Anyway I'm not liking tenebros posts in the past few pages. The STD vote from the past has felt quite weak for someone portraying themselves as "actively scumhunting", it's basically just getting vibes from a low-count poster to be honest. The idea they've regularly gone against mainstream reads as well doesn't really hold that much ground, like who cares, everyone at some point in the game who's town should be going for a read or two that doesn't just align with the majority, it's part of the game, and using it as an attempted defence smacks of desperation a little bit.

[MalcolmTucker]

And to boot, I don't think he knows Math is a mason.

This is going to make heads explode, and then I have to commute...

How would I know if anyone is a Mason? was it said? is it implied?

Did i just miss it in the 50 pages i missed?

be back later

I don't think Scorpious has come out well so far, but there's a kinda townie vibe to this in that I expect mafia at least would pay more attention to a mason claim and would likely be aware of it from their own thread. Obviously there's the possibility of a misdirect but considering Scorpious has come under suspicion that's really risky and hasn't even worked all that well either.

[MalcolmTucker]

I don't think either Scorpious or STD have done anything to particularly clear themselves as of yet, and I kinda agree with Deas' post above that Scorpious' reluctance to accept why they might be suspected doesn't look great.

But I'm kinda wary on eliminating either at the moment. A lot of the suspicion of them still feels more vibes-based than evidence-based right now. That's fine on turn one when you lack concrete info to eliminate someone but I don't think it's necessarily how we should be pursuing turn two. It feels like a somewhat safe vote...if they come back clean then the people who voted them can say they just felt bad and more active posters directing traffic get to influence the game while maybe being mafia.

I'd be interested in how they approach turn three if they get through. Both have been more active but if they go silent after being in the clear for a round then that's very suspect.

Anyway I'm not liking tenebros posts in the past few pages. The STD vote from the past has felt quite weak for someone portraying themselves as "actively scumhunting", it's basically just getting vibes from a low-count poster to be honest. The idea they've regularly gone against mainstream reads as well doesn't really hold that much ground, like who cares, everyone at some point in the game who's town should be going for a read or two that doesn't just align with the majority, it's part of the game, and using it as an attempted defence smacks of desperation a little bit.

I am the opposite of desperate. What I am is nearly out of fucks to give.

If you're town I get it's frustrating but then facing off accusations is kinda such a basic component of the game, we all have to deal with it when town sometimes, it sucks but it happens.

We can only go on the evidence of what people are posting, and for me the idea you're massively always going against the grain or consensus just isn't really true, like you've had some interesting or individual reads here or there but then so has everyone. And your main individual read today has largely just been based on a player's general inactivity, which on turn two feels like an incredibly safe approach for a mafia player.

[MalcolmTucker]

I've gone back and forth on them but tenebros most recent posts in the past few pages are incredibly mafia-leaning. Notably there is a lot of deflection with stuff like "go target your friends" without that ever actually being explained. They seem completely unwilling to actually accept the idea people may think they're mafia in a way that feels dishonest and like they're trying to come across as frustrated townie.

The whole idea someone like Deas is just trying to protect their friends while tenebros is being some maverick thinking outside the box just fundamentally isn't true when their main push yesterday was STD, simply based on their inactivity without much post-based evidence. Like I don't think a Scorpious wagon is a particularly great idea, but you can't say claim they're an easy target and then pivot onto STD instead. Major inconsistency.

VOTE: tenebrousluminary

[MalcolmTucker]

April's slot increasingly feels like it might be mafia. It had come under a lot of pressure before they replaced in and I didn't necessarily agree at the time, but their posts have been incredibly tentative and the idea used by them that we can't suspect them because they've only made a few posts - despite being a replacement - is hilarious.

[MalcolmTucker]

Like I don't think a Scorpious wagon is a particularly great idea, but you can't say claim they're an easy target and then pivot onto STD instead. Major inconsistency.

Good thing that is not the order in which those events happened.

You consistently have said you don't think voting for Scorpious is a good idea, and you consistently suspected STD yesterday. Would you be happy with STD's elimination now? If not why did you spend so much time putting pressure on them instead of a player who might actually be eliminated?

[MalcolmTucker]

VOTE: Dragons

Eyes and Scorpious have gotten plenty of flak for doing nothing. Why hasn't Dragons? I realize they made one or two slightly townie sounding posts, but the extent to which everyone has completely ignored them does not sit right with me.

Dragons is most notably different because they were the only one of the three to vote GeneralWu. Additionally, I feel they are the most capable of giving more, they have the fewest posts and I have the least sense of who they are within the game.

Also, I have felt at times that Dragons has in fact read the game. Scorp isn't doing anything because they have not read the game. What's Dragons' excuse?

Dragons is most notably different because they were the only one of the three to vote GeneralWu. Additionally, I feel they are the most capable of giving more, they have the fewest posts and I have the least sense of who they are within the game.

Also, I have felt at times that Dragons has in fact read the game. Scorp isn't doing anything because they have not read the game. What's Dragons' excuse?

read my posts i've been giving reads and shit

Exactly. You are present enough to have reads. So you are capable of producing content.

Dragons is most notably different because they were the only one of the three to vote GeneralWu. Additionally, I feel they are the most capable of giving more, they have the fewest posts and I have the least sense of who they are within the game.

Also, I have felt at times that Dragons has in fact read the game. Scorp isn't doing anything because they have not read the game. What's Dragons' excuse?

read my posts i've been giving reads and shit

Exactly. You are present enough to have reads. So you are capable of producing content.

and i am so what's your point

You appear to be doing so right now. I am explaining why I voted for you a while ago.

One example of my being contrary was taking monkey's side against Aristeia.

why hasn't my taking of monkey's side against aristeia shaped your read of me

I don't think you're partners with her, if that helps.

At the time, I didn't suspect her and your take was pretty hot. I just thought she was making a bad argument.

You pushed him plenty.

[MalcolmTucker]

How does this magical "player who might be eliminated" status come about if not by starting somewhere, anyway?

Why am I only allowed to vote for certain players? This is yet another narrative that has repeatedly been pushed on me and only me.

But you're saying you didn't even actually want him to be eliminated? That's my point. You're chastising other players for not being bold enough for their reads or for protecting their friends and yet your initial vote yesterday and some of your sustained pressure afterwards was on STD while you simultaneously argued voting for Scorpious was lazy.

Again the stuff at the end like being a victim of a "narrative", this is just another deflection because whenever you are asked perfectly legitimate questions you continually want others to believe you are being targeted in a vendetta or whatever to plant seeds of doubt. Why can you simply not reply to an accusation with a basic response that doesn't attempt to deflect from the issue at hand?

[MalcolmTucker]

Like you claim you're the one making bold reads while Deas protects his friends, but who have you actually consistently wanted eliminated? Who have you been properly pushing for info all that consistently? Like the posts you made on STD yesterday were more developed than your reads on any other player. And yet you are getting at others for supposedly being lazy - I don't think you've been lazy for what it's worth, I just think this idea you've been any more developed or interesting in your reads than the average player to be entirely false.

[MalcolmTucker]

Malcolm what is the point you're trying to make right now and is it addressed toward luminary or other players who are considering voting luminary?

My point is that there are continual inconsistencies in Luminary's play and that these hint toward being mafia. They accuse Deas of "protecting friends" but don't elaborate on who this is. They accuse others of being lazy for a Scorpious wagon and yet lumped their vote and most of their suspicion on STD on the basis of inactivity alone. They regularly deflect when accusations are thrown their away to try and move the discussion away from the issue at-hand with the continual idea basically every player questioning them is being dishonest.

[MalcolmTucker]

Like the posts you made on STD yesterday were more developed than your reads on any other player.

This is simply a lie.

Go away.

Again you have the chance here to say who you have continually suspected more than STD yesterday. You don't give it, instead you just accuse me of lying. Like I'm open to counter-evidence but I'm just not seeing it from looking at your ISO.

[MalcolmTucker]

I am today's elim. It's clear that's what the people want. Get on with it and quit demanding responses from me when you have already decided not to be satisfied with them before I even start typing.

Why are you playing this way if you are town? Being suspected is a fundamental part of mafia unless you expect us to just continually give you a free pass based on your word? I am town. I don't want the round ended quickly because I suspect a number of players and am open to changing my vote. But to do that you actually need to convince me you're town and work with me instead of calling me a liar and saying things about your own play that just don't match up to the game.

I suspected you turn one and initially started TR'ing you yesterday. I'm open to persuasion, but I'm just not seeing it based on recent posts. But it's not like I have dogmatically pursued you as mafia without any nuance from the start.

[MalcolmTucker]

I do not think it makes sense to go after the fua slot today and I think it's possible some maf were hopeful they could get that through. I am becoming a little suspicious of skitter, even though I don't want to as she is really the only player who has taken a firm stance in support of me when I believe scum see me as a mislim they would like to achieve.

It is interesting to me that the scum kill shows no fear of a doctor whatsoever. At least, I would think HEM would be the most obvious save.

Sorry tenebros, but this does not reflect the idea that fua (enchant now I think?) was your main suspect yesterday at all. And I am specifically talking about turn two here, which I have made clear.

[MalcolmTucker]

Deas:

I was scumreading fua on this basis earlier for their poorly thought out attack on me. I am now ignoring the slot due to its vig claim. I am becoming concerned about you, if silently, because you're providing yet another vector by which I am forced to spend all my time defending myself, or so would be the case if I continue to play this game the way you want me to. fire made a strong push against me earlier and I scumread him for it, but in light of his convincing insights on fua, I have rethought this. In fact, that he is not at all concerned with how he is perceived may be a good sign.

One example of my being contrary was taking monkey's side against Aristeia. I was also one of the first to go after Datisi, but since everyone seemed to think I only did so because Yeet did first, I do not expect this to resonate. I feel there are likely more examples but again cannot be arsed to look for them and if you wish to park your vote on me for that, so be it.

But overall, at this point, it's the softer and more timid shading of me coming from other places that I'm more concerned about. I'm being kept in the elim pool and saved for later. No, I do not have an exhaustive list of who is guilty of this. My thinking is evolving in real time. Surely I don't read as someone who showed up to today with a plan given what a mess my suspicions have been.

Also this last night. Fua was absolutely not your consistent main target yesterday. It doesn't reflect your posting history at all.

[MalcolmTucker]

I do not think it makes sense to go after the fua slot today and I think it's possible some maf were hopeful they could get that through. I am becoming a little suspicious of skitter, even though I don't want to as she is really the only player who has taken a firm stance in support of me when I believe scum see me as a mislim they would like to achieve.

It is interesting to me that the scum kill shows no fear of a doctor whatsoever. At least, I would think HEM would be the most obvious save.

Sorry tenebros, but this does not reflect the idea that fua (enchant now I think?) was your main suspect yesterday at all. And I am specifically talking about turn two here, which I have made clear.

After they claimed vig? No shit, Sherlock.

I specifically meant your main suspects in turn two. Who else did you suspect more than STD yesterday? If that was not clear from my initial post then I apologise, but the point I'm making is you are accusing others of lacking bold reads and yet the only player you applied any consistent pressure to yesterday was STD based on their inactivity, while calling Scorpious a lazy vote.

[MalcolmTucker]

I did not have a consistent main target yesterday.

It is almost as though I change my reads based on new information like someone who is trying to solve the game with an open mind. I spent plenty of time suspecting fua before they claimed vig. You may misrep that as much as you please.

Well yeah. So despite calling Scorpious a weak vote you put more focus onto STD than any other player. Like who do you actually want to eliminate at the moment? Or who would your top three choices be for elimination?

[MalcolmTucker]

VP, Deas, maybe Yeet or April. Excited to come under fire for bringing up a new read I haven't mentioned in response to being specifically asked for my reads!

VP you have at least previously pushed for and voted even if there wasn't too much beyond that. My point is again you've been claiming you've made bold reads outside the mainstream when Deas is the only one there that's outside the box right now and it's not as if you said anything remarkable re most of them. Like you're perfectly welcome to push them later and I'll reassess my current vote on the basis of how everyone looks. Far from definitive I'll vote you out yet depending on how the game develops.

[MalcolmTucker]

Malcolm what is the point you're trying to make right now and is it addressed toward luminary or other players who are considering voting luminary?

My point is that there are continual inconsistencies in Luminary's play and that these hint toward being mafia. They accuse Deas of "protecting friends" but don't elaborate on who this is. They accuse others of being lazy for a Scorpious wagon and yet lumped their vote and most of their suspicion on STD on the basis of inactivity alone. They regularly deflect when accusations are thrown their away to try and move the discussion away from the issue at-hand with the continual idea basically every player questioning them is being dishonest.

This looks TvT, sorry Malcolm. I think it's possible some of these things from luminary are a result of being distracted from getting pushed. If it makes you feel any better I think you won the 1v1 because of the stronger rhetoric and organization of your posts.

I've gone back and forth a bit, I could swing back to town re tenebros but leaning mafia right now, key part is figuring out whether their frustration is genuine or mafia feint.

[MalcolmTucker]

I guess my position is that tenebro does not strike me as someone playing with experience and confidence, regardless of their alignment, and I am if anything concerned by the inconsistencies between periods of not knowing who to vote for/not feeling comfortable pushing a non-main target and occasional other periods of confidently asserting someone as scum (fua). I think that self-consciousness is something that is very hard to shake off as scum, and while I agree that it is more prominent in newer players, I don't see tenebro's experience level as super critical to my read given the evidence in-thread of low confidence.
In regards to continuing to post, I think that can be just as much a personality/playstyle thing as an experience thing. On the rare occasion where I have seen someone ghost as scum, it's just as often been experienced players as newer players.

That's my take at least.

I've gone back and forth on them but tenebros most recent posts in the past few pages are incredibly mafia-leaning. Notably there is a lot of deflection with stuff like "go target your friends" without that ever actually being explained. They seem completely unwilling to actually accept the idea people may think they're mafia in a way that feels dishonest and like they're trying to come across as frustrated townie.

The whole idea someone like Deas is just trying to protect their friends while tenebros is being some maverick thinking outside the box just fundamentally isn't true when their main push yesterday was STD, simply based on their inactivity without much post-based evidence. Like I don't think a Scorpious wagon is a particularly great idea, but you can't say claim they're an easy target and then pivot onto STD instead. Major inconsistency.

VOTE: tenebrousluminary

April's slot increasingly feels like it might be mafia. It had come under a lot of pressure before they replaced in and I didn't necessarily agree at the time, but their posts have been incredibly tentative and the idea used by them that we can't suspect them because they've only made a few posts - despite being a replacement - is hilarious.

DeasVail defense on tene,

followed by a push by Malcolm with an additional side moment piece slot from a slot that had zero pull/momentum

in the game at the time is a key point.

Deas can go green because it was a very specific and genuine feeling of defense on Tene, kind of the exact opposite of Malcolm. I see Tene as townier because of a lot of things Malc pushed as reasons for them being scum. It feels like scum pushing town for faults in the townies play because they can see the faults better from a scum perspective.

Only reason your slot has had zero momentum is because you're a replace-in and the slot has been quiet for a while. The slot was under heavy pressure turn one. I was unsure how I felt about it at the time but your posts so far haven't reassured me. What's your actual proper mafia case for me beyond like one post that happens to mention you?

[MalcolmTucker]

I've had like three posts, anyone saying I'm scummy is pulling it out of their ass. I've only been in this game less than 48 hours total of day time.

This post is really not good. It isn't the start of the game, clearly people are reading based off the slot and not the individual posts from April, and they should know that. I was unsure on the slot day one but the pressure that was put on it seemed fair at the time given the circumstances.

[MalcolmTucker]

Honestly, guy replacing in and not reading and then not helping to find scum (if you aren't) isn't great town play. I get that it could be more gimmick play than AI playbut its still not great

Yeah April pretty much said early doors that they don't plan to actually check back before from when they replaced in. Irrespective of their alignment I'm not sure why any of their reads should particularly be taken seriously as a result of that because this is a game that requires reading back to some degree to assess players are and why they have been TR'd or mafia read so far. Feels like a convenient way to ignore previous accusations on the slot.

[MalcolmTucker]

Luminary are you pushing Malcolm now, what is happening?

I will say, Frogster's aloofness in this game is very different from his town play in the last game.

What's up with that Frog? You've seemed not super engaged with the flow of the game for awhile now.

Feels like they're asking a lot of softball questions without committing to stances.

[MalcolmTucker]

wrong. One doesn't necessarily need to read back to get reads and play.

You don't need to read back every post but a new player should at least be trying to gauge how the game has gone so far to deduce how likely their read based off one or two posts is to be correct. Otherwise I don't think their views counts for much, especially when we're on 3k posts.

[MalcolmTucker]

I've only played with Frogster once and while I won't rely on meta too much, they kinda played like this as town. Sudden flurry in votes is kinda interesting though. The slot could probably do with some pressure if nothing else since they've gotten an easy ride but wouldn't advocate for elimination right now.

[MalcolmTucker]

Yeah I hate the sudden flurry with no case.

Which of the votes do you question?

Malcom, can you link the game you're referring to?

viewtopic.php?f=51&t=88932

Here you go. As I say only time we've played together and their approach was basically identical to this early on. They got a stronger read towards the end of the game though so not a completely neutral approach, but a lot of kinda softball questions and stuff like that.

[MalcolmTucker]

I don’t Have a strong opinion on tenebro. Could be frustrated Town or AtE scum. I could see either. If I had to pick maybe slightly lean town because it’s a sort of believable frustration.

You two could easily be teammates and this does nothing to dissuade me of that. You're understandably not jumping onto the wagon but town hinting anyway while not making a particularly strong defence that openly shows you off as partners.

[MalcolmTucker]

I'm starting to read go over some of the sections. Can someone explain to me why MathBlade even claimed both of you guys as Mason to begin with? You two weren't even like that high at that point...

Like what was the point? There was plenty of room to start talking yourselves out of the wagon. Instead MathBlade just decided with like half the required votes on you guys not even halfway into D1 to just throw out the mason bomb immediately.

What is the point of interrogating this? It was probably suboptimal but we cannot exactly undo it now.

These pages have damaged my yeet read successfully but not enough to vote them. I am unsure what case there is against skitter apart from comparisons to other games which I do not really care about.

Looking through the game, this is about as strong as any disagreements get between Yeet/tenebros for the most part. Don't think it's quite enough to rule them out as potential partners.

[MalcolmTucker]

It’s weird that there’s an implicit expectation that somehow that post was supposed to change your mind on us being partners. Why did you frame it that way?

I'm not quite sure what you mean here? I'm pointing out the two of you have generally been pretty chill with each other most of the game and this is the only occasion where things start to get a bit heated. But it never really lasted and arguably seems quite artificial.

[MalcolmTucker]

Yeah I hate the sudden flurry with no case.

Which of the votes do you question?

Malcom, can you link the game you're referring to?

viewtopic.php?f=51&t=88932

Here you go. As I say only time we've played together and their approach was basically identical to this early on. They got a stronger read towards the end of the game though so not a completely neutral approach, but a lot of kinda softball questions and stuff like that.

Is that the same though? This game he pushed Yeet almost all of D1 out of an RVS vote, and then followed tenebros onto fua/enchant (which I would assume you'd find interesting)

In the game you linked he pushed Galron semi-aggressively early on, and had some tinfoil things like voting Not Mafia. He definitely has some softballs that game too, but I'm not certain it is analogous. Compare the ISOs directly

Not necessarily identical but more just the general posting style seems similar. Frogster's definitely been less engaged this game I'd say but a lot of the softball questions and the like which helped sparked sudden interest in them don't feel out of character.

[MalcolmTucker]

I’m having trouble finding scumreads this game. That’s why I’m poking and prodding around.

Well yeah but then you were filled with certainty on day one with little info to go on. What's changed?

[MalcolmTucker]

More info to go on. I change my reads based on new information. Primarily it has been reasons to think people were town I previously thought were scum.

But having more info to go on also should make it easier to SR other people no? Like I'm baffled how a few select posts early on had you reaching immediate conclusions, whereas now with thousands of posts you say you're struggling to have any conclusive thoughts.

If you are mafia then I suppose there's a logic where you go in early with lots of reads because it's fundamentally hard for anyone to prove them - part of the early game is throwing around shit and seeing what sticks and provoking people into interesting responses, but if you're mafia it's arguably more difficult to feign interest in someone because they have more evidence with which to mount a defence. But such an approach would still allow you to build a reputation as an engaged player with "reads" instead of someone sitting back and not saying as much.

[MalcolmTucker]

Should I be townreading you, Malcolm? I noticed quite a few others think you are townie however it is hard for me to read you as such. I can’t find any reasons to scumread you either, you’re just very null all around to me.

I mean yes, you should be TR'ing me, but then I'm obviously going to say that irrespective of my alignment so this feels like a fluff question.

But I'd say my reads have been fairly consistent while being relaxed enough for me to change my mind and update my reads on new info which helps the town. Eg I town read you early on but your play since later in turn one has struck me as increasingly mafia. I pushed tenebros early on, got more of a town vibe, and now get a mafia vibe again. I'm trying to back up any assertions I have with proper evidence and I don't think I've been agenda-driven in a way mafia might be.

[MalcolmTucker]

Do I give you a similar impression, fire?

yeet was there a reason you asked this?

It's also interesting that Yeet comments on your post without a question instead of giving any info to the town as to how they feel about tenebros as a result of your read. It's cagey.

[MalcolmTucker]

I suspect that Frogsterking is aligned with the town.

VOTE: Datisi

I feel jittery about this slot’s opening posts.

VOTE: Datisi

I feel jittery about this slot’s opening posts.

good vote

what gives you the jitters?

Now I think you are scum subliminally signaling to me that I have, in fact, made a good vote.

You are not helping your case, scumDatisi.

Frogsterking is confirmed town to me. I will not accept any vote on Frogsterking.

On the other hand, Datisi is most likely scum this game.

VOTE: Datisi

Post 39 feels unnatural to me.

Frogsterking, you may need to do some research on what to expect from this game.

I also don’t like 39. I don’t like the way Datisi is engaging the thread.

I also wouldn’t mind getting Datisi hammered soon.

I can guarantee at least one scum has posted.

Save the Dragons is also town.

If I am wrong on Datisi, then skitter30 is scum.

Datisi’s responses do not ease my anxiety about his alignment.

After readinf 71 multiple times, i actually dont think i got any clarity from it >.>

Why is it more believeable that me/dats would townbin you than for yeet to do the same thing?

~

Nai = non alignment indicative

In other words i'm saying what dats has done thus far is neither townie nor scummy for him

skitter30, I don’t believe you are being consistent in your explanation.

I don’t believe that you would say that you’re not sure why people think Datisi is scum when you know exactly how he plays and believe this to be his town self.

You are assuming that we know him implicitly there. We do not know Datisi, so why would you expect us to have the same opinion on him with your knowledge?

You would’ve simply said that Datisi’s posts are “NAI”, without the part where you’re “not sure why people dislike him”.

It doesn’t make sense, it’s not a real read, and your approach to this whole thing feels like it’s not coming from a genuine solving headspace - rather it was feeble attempt to provide content and you felt the urge to white knight him.

Vote: skitter30

Like can anyone read these posts and tell me they even slightly resemble the Yeet we're seeing now? Within just over 100 posts they:

- Make at least two hard scum reads.
- Make two strong TR's.
- Say they want a player hammered soon.
- 'Guarantee' mafia has posted.

None of this squares up with a player who now - over 300 posts into the game - is flip-flopping regularly and admits they don't have any particularly strong mafia reads. It's like a different player. But there is surely no reason for Yeet to deliberately alter their approach to the game as a townie.

[MalcolmTucker]

Again I find this early Datisi wagon really interesting, especially given the possibility of tenebros/Yeet as teammates.

Both push early on without much of a case, especially Yeet who basically thinks they've caught mafia about 60 posts into the game.

But the case against Datisi was never coherent or all that good. Is it possible someone in a mafia thread realised this and told them to chill a bit? The argument, from tenebros at least, is that Datisi's posting improved but I still don't see what they did which was all that wrong in the first place anyway.

[MalcolmTucker]

Re 3236 - that should say over 3k posts into the game, not 300, obviously.

[MalcolmTucker]

I think I have gotten myself into a tunnel and after a reassessment I am no longer sure of this read.

UNVOTE: Tenebro

Reading through tenebro’ Iso again, I am more inclined to think that the dismissive nature is an unhelpful way of communicating, but I don’t actually think it lines up with the scum-tenebro image that I had created for myself. If I thought that tenebro was scum trying to blend in and appease, then their approach to suspicion in fact does the opposite.

I am happy to discuss with anyone regarding this, and would particularly be interested if anyone thinks I am making a mistake in backing off this, but I think it’s more likely that tenebro-scum was a world I wanted to be true rather than one that actually is true.

Yes I think this is a good unvote I think luminary is town and more likely to receive negative attention than other players for non-AI reasons. I believe it's the best explanation.

Not had a chance to catch up tonight, but based on these will do so in the morning and evaluate where I am on tenebros. Been pretty keen at times on it as a mafia slot and I don't think tenebros has played a particularly townie game, but did have a stint during turn one where I doubted my read so that could be telling me something.

[MalcolmTucker]

before I tipped you off.

Lol OK yeah, I'm sure.

When did you start scum reading me?

When Malcolm was patiently explaining to you why the meta read doesn't make sense and you didn't bother to fake any kind of recognition or reaction

I stand by my points on your meta read, but as someone who suspects VP I don't think their response was particularly terrible, there are some subtle differences in play there even if the overall style is similar.

[MalcolmTucker]

I am experiencing a lack of confidence again.

I hate that I have been so OMGUS-driven this game yet I see Deas unvoting and can't help but want to reconsider.

I feel better about a handful of townreads than any scumreads. Scorp, Nero, fire, Cape are all town to me. That provides some grounding. April's posts have felt good as well.

I still suspect VP and Yeet. I do not have a good reason for this.

But feeling less gung ho about everything in general.

As I peruse the player list, Eyes jumps out as someone I should investigate more.

I am aware that this post involves me both bringing up a boring lurker suspicion and returning to lower confidence at a time when that might look convenient. I hereby decree that this self-aware line makes it okay.

I dunno, despite others revising their views I'm not sure I'm necessarily feeling any better about tenebros after reading this post.

The conscious change in tone could be a townie modifying their style to appear less combative but I feel like it's potentially a mafia player who's escaped elimination narrowly trying to get some goodwill with the town.

I also don't think the "self-aware" line at the end really does much to stop the post from still ultimately saying very little in the grand scheme of things.

Re bolded part, I've suspected at different periods tenebros is either mafia with Yeet or VP. The former seems perfectly possible, the latter maybe less likely now they've gone for each other a bit more, albeit either one on their own still works perfectly well. Throwing in a bit of suspicion against whichever one is hypothetically their teammate without elaborating on it feels quite plausible to me, creates minimal distance without putting any pressure on them at all.

Like there's a perfectly good case to be made for either VP or Yeet, it's not just a gut-read to go for either player, so how does tenebros not have a good reason for this read?

[MalcolmTucker]

poe town. I've been just sorta nodding along with his posting. Not really in love with your case. Why is he the worst Tene voter?

his case is political, pushing faults in a town play rather than looking for scum. comes across well to most townies, and if you look at frogster, he even pushed them expecting it to be a TvT in the form of TeneScum being questioned instead of any MalcolmScum.

Should I be townreading you, Malcolm? I noticed quite a few others think you are townie however it is hard for me to read you as such. I can’t find any reasons to scumread you either, you’re just very null all around to me.

This is actually a reason I'm scum reading Malcolm.

I unfortunately shoot my shot a bit too early because I don't think a strong case is there for scumMalcolm, I just believe them to be scum, if that makes sense.

It's part of the "he's saying all of the right things" for certain people, but it isn't the right thing for people who were on the side like us, which is a sign he's pandering to the popular choice, and even leading that trajectory. he's kind of doing it while out in the forefront and while also having that behind the scene energy.

Reading back and this doesn't feel like a particularly strong mafia case at all, the arguments being made are a reach and don't line up.

Re the first part, I fail to see how my read of tenebros is "political". Pointing out that someone's playing doesn't feel town is perfectly legitimate because it can for obvious reasons sometimes be a good mafia tell, not everyone manages to disguise their allegiance perfectly.

Tenebros has regularly deflected when faced with pressure or arguments in a way that often seems designed to project pressure back onto the other player to make other townies distrust them. In many cases they don't address the actual accusations at hand but simply post on in the hope that said accusations will be ignored.

There are points where their play has struck me as potentially townie as well (later in turn one particularly) but I don't think my case is particularly dishonest.

Re your second post, it feels a bit all over the place to the point where I'm not sure where your case on me actually lies at all? Like your frustration with me seems to be both that I'm making developed posts without dominating the game? That seems like a reasonable approach in a game where we've had players offering no reads and players hyper-posting.

When making reads I've tried to develop them, referring to player ISOs when relevant and attempting to make links between potential teammates. Like I think this is inherently a lot more town than lazily going for low activity players who might be easy targets. Why am I the one making easy reads instead of someone else?

You say you "shoot your shot" too early but what is this supposed to mean? There's almost a vibe here where you replaced in as mafia, immediately suggested I might be mafia, but when you read back through the game realised you had no case against me at all.

Like if you're town, how did you shoot your shot too early? It's day two and you still have plenty of time to make your case as the game goes forward.

[MalcolmTucker]

Yeah I don't think voting out Skitter's slot is the best approach here, at least need to gauge how their replacement approaches things.

[MalcolmTucker]

April, looking through Malcolm and VP, I would feel better about eliminating VP at this point. Was there a particularly compelling reason you had for not eliminating VP? Apologies if I've missed it.

There's no actual case. That's the most compelling case for not eliminating me.

I'm fairly-annoyed at how badly town is playing here, but will try to answer questions before this laziness slumps toward my elim, which is what is happening.

You seem experienced enough to know that "wah, no case" is a classic scum defense, and yet.

Yeah I don't think that is a particularly great post.

I don't think the case against VP is absolutely 100% solid which is why I'm not voting for them at the moment, but there have been plenty of reasons presented for why they should go out and I'm sure they know that.

The "town is playing bad" feels like a classic deflection - makes posters on the fence second guess where they stand in an attempt to sway it.

[MalcolmTucker]

yeah, again, this is where VP's insinuations don't match what he's actually saying. when asked to commit to some actual individual scumreads, he lists 6 people (3297) and none of them are nero, but here he's discrediting nero in a way that can only imply that he thinks nero is scum. it's just shade for the sake of shade and he doesn't actually believe it. i don't know why anyone would do that unless they're maf

If VP is mafia, I'd wager there's at least one mafia in that list of six who's been thrown in there to create some distance. Maybe Yeet possibly? I feel like Yeet's in this weird position where there's a few players who have cast doubt on them at times without ever going in any further on the case.

[MalcolmTucker]

I think we should consolidate on one of HEM/Tenebro to push pressure and advance game state rather than splitting

Isn't town's biggest power early in large games driving dueling wagons? That's how you get good info for future use. Why do you think we should focus on one and not the other here?

I just finished reading through page 10, so I'm still in catch up. Here is kind of what I have for reads out of that so far:


Town:

Frogsterking

- early attack on Yeet over game delay is tinfoil I'd expect from town FK

Yeet

- wild noob read after wild noob read. Somewhat question if Yeet is not an alt though, in which case maybe this means nothing.

fireisredsir

- has independent thought, calling out post 116 as bad is good. Also seems to not mind poking people, which I appreciate.

skitter30

- Kind of like their pressure on Datisi, but think the over defense of tenesbro is unwarranted. This is probably closer to a null read than a townread in terms of confidence, but I like that she is mixing it up.

Cape90

- probably town for finding frogster town and asking pretty open questions.

Ari

- I like her pressure and vote on monkey when he was being kind of ridiculous.


Null:

DeasVail

- commenting, but not doing a ton. Maybe lean townish.


Scum:

fua

- I find the hard scum read of tenesbro a little contrived, and possibly piling on to a popular opinion in thread.

monkey

- The whole intereaction with ari looks like monkey got over confident with a poke and couldn't explain the position.

why do you think ari and i are tvt? i came out of that scumreading ari.

so you think ari and datisi are scum buddies here? idgi

it is unfortunate Dats views the world through the lens of cautious paranoia but its also kind of endearing <3

in 90% of cases, yes.

That LimLo in Guardians was excruciating!

HEM dropped in a bit aggressively, Ari posted a readslist where he was at the bottom, and he asked her to elaborate on all of them.

Yes, and HEM was flipping a shit somewhat unprompted when Ari asked for clarification. His overreaction to that whole situation was why he got run up. It read as scum misreading and overreacting to the intent of a question.

What is the case on Ari? I'm going to give up on reading pages of spam shitting from a bunch of people.

Ari, vote Wu.

Furthermore VP before I posted the game was wagoning two masons
It was terrible play before I even posted.

Actually, I was pushing for Wu or HEM flip, and that's where the day was heading, not toward both the masons getting wagoned. You just didn't read the game before you claimed.

I'm not even mad at you for claiming. Whatever. Not how I would have played it, but I get where you're coming from. It's the same logic as our last game when I cleared A50.

But listen, you spamming the thread to make the same points again and again is not helpful. You only need to say it once. The beauty of forum mafia is that your words are immortalized forever and people can refer back to them.

When I say loud, I mean you spam the thread and say the same things repeatedly and insist you're right even if lots of other people disagree. It's exhausting and makes catching up impossible for people.

I'm trying to work with you. if you have an actual Ari case, post that shit.

There’s a wagon on Ari for a reason
Stop focusing on me if you’re town.

WHAT IS THE REASON FOR THE ARI WAGON?????????

Like I asked for this case more than once, and "she argued with Hem and doesn't vote WU" is not a fucking case. So ELI5


And I'm talking to you because you're 50% of the posts in a LARGE GAME since you entered. If you would chill the fuck out and stop trying to big dick energy the whole game, we could land somewhere good today. There have been 12+ pages added since I got up 5 hours ago, and you can't tell me that is quality work happening in those pages because I read half of them before I had to come here to the future and plead with you to have some sense.

Ari, you want to join me on the Wu wagon?

Math, you officially have the most posts in the game. Let that sink in.

It’s a pretty outlandish claim all of herself, VP, Skitter, Datisi, fire, and Yeet are all town.
It’s even more outlandish DV, tene, Cape, and Nero are all town.

Yeah, what you're saying is fair here. There has to be some scum in there when that is half the town.

Did ari say both the mason wagons are pure? If so I missed that in the pages I didn't read

it's in the way that you dismiss the case against ari and have announced that the past 20 pages are barely worth reading. it sends the wrong message.

please consider this post when backreading ari. i would like to know what you think about it, even if it's a dissenting opinion.

I can see the case you're making. What I'm trying to weigh is that ari and mathblade just finished a bitter AF game, and it's behind them, but also I am certain there are tender egos there. So it's like, is ari just acting contrarian to Math because of that?

Math did come in this game and start yelling in a similar way to that past game. I wasn't even alive when that fight happened and it was kind of triggering for me.

Ari's replaced, so I'm not really that attached and if we just yeet that slot D1, then whatever. D1 in a large isn't that important.

I think Wu looks not great in wagon positions and the fact his wagon falls apart at e-5 everytime is a red flag for me, but I'm not lockscum on anyone at this point and can be convinced to compromise.

But also, Ari's readslist was kind of a turd.

Does anyone have any thoughts on the possibility of VP/April being teammates together? I feel like it's a definite possibility and there's nothing in ISOs to necessarily discredit it for the most part.

VP feels like they're regularly throwing a lot of softball questions at Ari early game with fairly soft defences of them as well. They don't necessarily commit to the slot being full-on town because that potentially makes any association all too clear, but there are notably a few questions to the rest of the town against Ari - what's the case against them etc, in case VP was maybe reluctant to mount too strong a defence in case somebody had a more solid read on them. Likewise VP discredits their readlist to potentially create some distance between them, but doesn't necessarily elaborate on what's wrong with it at all.

I'd be intrigued to know VP's thoughts on how April has played the game so far, and what they make of what I thought was April's fairly flimsy mafia case against me.

[MalcolmTucker]

The "town is playing bad" feels like a classic deflection - makes posters on the fence second guess where they stand in an attempt to sway it.

Nah, just the math vote is kind of the last straw for me. I'm not going to put a bunch of effort into something I've already dedicated a lot of time to for very few results.

I don't need to spend half my work day trying to convince lazy townies to actually critically think about the arguments being presented.

I've pressed people to articulate their reasons. I've posted rebuttals to those reasons and pointed out why they are bad.

What else am I supposed to be doing here in your eyes? As I stated before, my flip is going to justify everything I'm saying.

Again I don't think this is a particularly helpful approach at all. You're (presumably) experienced at this and if you are town, you'll know handling accusations and sustained pressure is a fundamental part of the game.

Like from an uninformed town POV, some of these posts (like the ones tenebros has made) feel less like genuine frustration and more an attempt to plant seeds in the heads of townies that we're actually very stupid for voting you. You talk about players not going on personalities and focusing on actual content instead, but this is like the definition of an appeal to emotion that is very much intended to direct players away from you without giving solid evidence as to why they should do so. I don't have a meta on you but you seem experienced...do you think calling townies lazy is likely to get them onside?

I don't really see that either, most of the game has seen players be quite engaged and a wide range of players have been suspected.

[MalcolmTucker]

I'd be intrigued to know VP's thoughts on how April has played the game so far, and what they make of what I thought was April's fairly flimsy mafia case against me.

My thoughts on the Ari slot:

I didn't really have a scum read on Ari. I could see an argument being made against this slot, but their frustration with the game also struck me as genuine.

As for April's case on you, IDK. April plays and thinks about the game very differently than me. I don't find it all that convincing, but I do appreciate pressure being applied in novel places today.

The biggest point against April I think is that she could be scum trying to pocket me. I found it a little weird that she agreed that my Cape case was decent, when what I posted would actually take a little time to fact check to see if what I was saying was accurate.

Could be laziness, and April certainly had other things to reread, but given where she put me on her list, I'd think she'd want to check out my thoughts for accuracy/scum motivation.

I don't hate this line of reasoning actually, would be a clever play from April if you're town and eventually get eliminated.

[MalcolmTucker]

I'll respond more in the morning but this wagon on me is genuinely astonishingly lazy, no actual evidence provided for a mafia case.

[MalcolmTucker]

I am at the bottom of page 123 and

at that point

I think I have more or less developed reads that look like this:

Town reads: Nero, VP, Enchant, fire, STD, Deas

Almost-Town: Yeet, Malcolm

Can't decide: Scorp, Datisi, skitter, April, Cape

Scum leans: tene, frog

Note that these are mostly impressions although claims do play a part of it. Also names in each category are not necessarily ordered

Eyes TR'd me the other day. What has particularly changed?

[MalcolmTucker]

I don't think everyone on my wagon is mafia but it's such an obvious desperate scum case, at least one if not two on there.

[MalcolmTucker]

considering i had eyes and yeet as top picks for VP partners idk if i can really endorse this

but maybe im wrong, idk

If anything, the fact those are the 2 directly following onto Malcolm is almost a little too spot on to be in a team with VP.

To be clear, you think Yeet might be in a team with me? Blatantly incorrect if so given the play so far.

[MalcolmTucker]

no

actual

evidence provided for a mafia case.

Also, I want people to look into this way of phrasing.

He said there's no "actual" evidence, implying that there would indeed be some type of evidence that could be found.

If he was town, "actual" evidence wouldn't be something he needs to bring up, because it would simply be "there's no evidence".


This is a "they're right but for the wrong reasons/no reason" scum defense by Malcolm.

What is your actual case against me? You admitted early on you "shoot your shot" early because you had no actual case. Now you're just manufacturing it.

[MalcolmTucker]

considering i had eyes and yeet as top picks for VP partners idk if i can really endorse this

but maybe im wrong, idk

If anything, the fact those are the 2 directly following onto Malcolm is almost a little too spot on to be in a team with VP.

To be clear, you think Yeet might be in a team with me? Blatantly incorrect if so given the play so far.

I've had yeet green for a long time, buddy.

Okay then maybe I'm too drunk but I genuinely dunno what your above post means.

[MalcolmTucker]

Like I've been miseliminated before but, as a last post before I check out for the night, I genuinely do not understand the case against me.

April's read is just really lazy. They admitted early on they'd barely read up on the game and they started accusing me. Since then their read on me has felt incredibly dishonest and lacking in substance. Like, again, I genuinely don't know what the case against me is at this point? April's argument basically seems to be I am simultaneously too townie and too suspect. Again, just bare nonsense.

[MalcolmTucker]

also it took great effort to overcome my urges and not go with my initial instinct of "im obvtown so anyone suspecting me is confscum gg lock em up"

oh and i still think VP/malc is decently likely

Interesting. I hadn't really thought about that pairing, but I can see some cases for it.

Malcolm hasnt hopped onto the VPB wagon, and VPB has shied away from Malcolm.

I'll keep it in the back of my mind, not necessarily feeling it, but it's something I'll think about.

I really liked VPB's last hurrah post.

when you first brought up malcolm, him and VP as a pairing was my first thought. i think it makes sense with the tene wagon, and some of the interactions early. but that's from the perspective of thinking VP is the scummier one, so idk if it's as clear of a connection in the other direction

Sorry but you're a better player than this I reckon, the idea of a team of me and VP just doesn't work. Like I've put consistent pressure on that slot at times which would be unnecessary from mafia.

[MalcolmTucker]

This wagon is genuinely all over the place, like there's town on it of course since it's not all mafia but I am yet to see one proper argument for me being scum.

[MalcolmTucker]

VOTE: Malcolm

at first i didn't buy the "im for sure getting elimmed so here are my last words... take me away..." from VP considering he isn't really in immediate danger of a lim, but. maybe i do buy it. i'm ok with seeing what happens here instead

I don’t buy it and think pre-elim effort posting is largely NAI (although appreciated regardless!)

but I’m not opposed to Malcolm being voted.

I’ll do a deeper dive into my read on Malcolm probably tonight Aus time.

At what point have you suspected me so far? This is just a really weird wagon, makes no sense.

[MalcolmTucker]

when you first brought up malcolm, him and VP as a pairing was my first thought. i think it makes sense with the tene wagon, and some of the interactions early. but that's from the perspective of thinking VP is the scummier one, so idk if it's as clear of a connection in the other direction

If you think we are partners, why are you getting off my much bigger wagon?

Yeah this logic makes no sense at all, like I've obviously not been all-out to eliminate you, but I'd argue I've had solid suspicion of you so far.

[MalcolmTucker]

VOTE: Malcolm

at first i didn't buy the "im for sure getting elimmed so here are my last words... take me away..." from VP considering he isn't really in immediate danger of a lim, but. maybe i do buy it. i'm ok with seeing what happens here instead

I don’t buy it and think pre-elim effort posting is largely NAI (although appreciated regardless!)

but I’m not opposed to Malcolm being voted.

I’ll do a deeper dive into my read on Malcolm probably tonight Aus time.

At what point have you suspected me so far? This is just a really weird wagon, makes no sense.

I have not. By “voted” I mean receiving votes rather than being eliminated. I haven’t decided whether I’m okay with that yet and need to spend some time thinking about my read on you. Your play has not stuck out to me either way so far.

Okay, but there are 17 players remaining in the game? How can you be fine with a null read being eliminated? There's more than enough out there so far to support the elimination of a player who you actually suspect.

[MalcolmTucker]

To add to the above, that's not to say Nero can't end up being mafia further down the line if VP does end up being town. But the idea of Nero/Wu together never worked. In fact Nero being mafia who pushed an easy town slot to potentially get rid of but being reluctant to go ahead with it (with solid reasoning for doing so early on) would arguably make more sense than them being teammates. Unless you're actually mafia yourself and know that's not the case.

VP's continual theory that Nero/Wu may have been mafia together and that Nero was potentially backing away from Wu because they were teammates really made no sense at all to me but they notably kept pushing it, in posts 1339, 1344, 1939 and 2128 to give just some examples.

It just doesn't chime. Nero was basically the first player in the game to mention that Wu was not contributing a heavy amount and that they were coming across as suspicious for it. I don't see why there'd be any benefit to throwing your teammate into the mix like that early in the game...in retrospect without that post it's quite possible there'd have never been a bandwagon against Wu at all in turn one.

I dunno, the way VP just kept pushing this felt strange, as if it was potential mafia who'd come up with a theory to push Nero/Wu and who felt like they couldn't drop it without seeming suspicious for doing so.

Hood people what happened in your hood overnight?

Nero pushed me to talk about reads. I told him I'm not doing that in a hood with a potential scum, and that it was kinda antitown to push it repeatedly.

That was all.

I doubt the hood is gonna get used much until we descum it

Your reads are surely going to be seen when you post them here anyway? Like, I get playing your cards close to your chest sometimes, but mafia are going to find out what a lot of us think because that is a natural condition of playing the game, and you can basically repeat whatever was being said in your hood anyway.

Furthermore, in the bottom of 266, they treat me like they know I am town.

Can you give me specifics of what you're seeing there?

I think we should consolidate on one of HEM/Tenebro to push pressure and advance game state rather than splitting

Isn't town's biggest power early in large games driving dueling wagons? That's how you get good info for future use. Why do you think we should focus on one and not the other here?

I scumread Tenebro hard based on 116 and the attempt to defuse suspicion by essentially saying it’s just a bandwagon

I don't remember doing this. What do you mean?

“I’m so popular, everyone is looking at me” is basically a degradation of the reason to actually suspect you and dismisses it as a trend rather than a veritable case.

I am not sure how you got that idea from what I wrote, but okay.

It would be difficult for me to think any case against me had merit when I know it to be wrong.

Yes, but I would think you would at least go and defend your position or acknowledge the votes on you. Your playstyle so far has been very dismissive and I find that that typically comes from scum.

Fua looks objectively terrible in this exchange, and isn't even scumreading Tenesbro's 116 for the correct reason (which is that reads like pocketing of Yeet.)

Also, VOTE: fua

Vote Wu or HEM

Perhaps I am able to ascertain why you'd think that. You may have a point.

VOTE: Dragons

Vote Wu or HEM.

Large games should consolidate D1 as fast as possible or we will end up at 100+ pages for D1 and that's just annoying later in the game.

I don't want to right now. If you want me to consider a popular vote target, wait for Nordom's replacement.

That's not Wu or HEM.

Large games are about compromise early on and moving things forward. We will get more info out of running up these Jabronis than we will out of you single voting dragons.

Be a team player!

I'd be interested to know where VP's thoughts stand on tenebros so far, and vice versa. Looking through their ISO there are a lot of soft interactions here without much of an indication as to what VP or tenebros necessarily think of each other as individual players. Like there isn't really a strong defence of tenebros while under pressure, but there's an attempt to paint Fua in a bad light after an exchange with tenebros, for example.

I don't think Cape pushing the hammer on Wu (whether intentional or unintentional) is particularly problematic given lots of players spent basically 10-20 pages desperate for the turn to come to an end. Wu was clearly seen as the strongest consistent candidate by that point for elimination despite uncertainties over their role.

That's not why he hammered though. He stated extensive reasons that were anything but "this is a consensus read for the day".

Also, why hammer without asking for a claim?

I feel like Wu would have surely claimed long before the actual hammer was dropped. They'd been under suspicion for most of the game and remained prime target by that point.

I'd be interested to know where VP's thoughts stand on tenebros so far, and vice versa. Looking through their ISO there are a lot of soft interactions here without much of an indication as to what VP or tenebros necessarily think of each other as individual players. Like there isn't really a strong defence of tenebros while under pressure, but there's an attempt to paint Fua in a bad light after an exchange with tenebros, for example.

I haven't found tenebros all that scummy, and fua did look like shit in that interaction, as well as for not killing/not claiming target this morning.

You seem very eager to shade me on flimsy reasons.

I don't think my main reason as stated earlier is particularly flimsy - you regularly claimed Nero was suspect for pushing Wu without voting for them despite the fact Nero/Wu weren't going to end up being teammates since Nero was the first person to shade Wu when there was no heat on them, an illogical strategy for two mafia to pursue. I found that incredibly strange and it felt a bit like you were potentially pursuing that line because it would have been odd to back off.

I found that incredibly strange and it felt a bit like you were potentially pursuing that line because it would have been odd to back off.

Actually my point made total sense and what you're arguing is dumb. If you think I'm afraid to switch positions as scum, you don't know my game at all.

Nero banging for Wu's yeet for half the day and then suddenly not being interested for extremely vague meta reasons when the Wu wagon got real is Hella suspicious on its face.

Nero was the first person to throw any shade on Wu at all. Reading the game early on I found it strange how nobody commented on the fact Wu was regularly posting but giving no reads or opinions. Nero is the first to point this out, and it's the first, initial point in the game that Wu came under any pressure. From there it never really quite went away fully, leading to the eventual elimination. If the two of them had been teammates then this would have quite frankly been dreadful play and this should have been apparent in day one.

I'm perfectly open to the idea Nero saw an easy day one target and pushed that on solid evidence without fully sticking to it, and there's a case to be made this is what happened if you're town, but from your POV this argument would only work if you were convinced Wu was actually town. There was just no logical means by which they were on the mafia team together barring a massive error by Nero wherein he stuck his teammate into the shit when there were plenty of other quiet or inactive players to target.

Perhaps I am able to ascertain why you'd think that. You may have a point.

VOTE: Dragons

Vote Wu or HEM.

Large games should consolidate D1 as fast as possible or we will end up at 100+ pages for D1 and that's just annoying later in the game.

THIS right here is why my sequence on Datisi was not wrong. We need to get things moving and start pushing in this kind of game since opinions will be far more fragmented. The probability that close to half the people in this game have the same top scumread is far lower than in a smaller game. That means we need to compromise and not always vote our top scumread at any given point. We don't want to dilly dally the whole day and scramble with no info at the end. I am saying this now so that we do not get caught in problems down the line. Just to put my money where my mouth is, I will VOTE: humaneatingmonkey, even though my last impression of him is light town (although I feel more nullish on him anyway).

Yes, Aristeia's townread on Datisi gives me some pause on him being scum. No, that doesn't mean I still don't want more pressure on him and to run him up. If people want to start voting Datisi again I will gladly switch back. And me pointing out that I didn't think many people at the time had a favorable opinion on him.

I haven't fully caught up (nor do I intend to in such a large game) but it seems things have changed. It is concerning that people are using my recent activity to discredit the townie vibes that I gave earlier. It is possible that this is scum motivated to keep the PoE wider, but it seems more likely to me that this is just poor activity logic.

Here is a point on day one when both Yeet/VP argue for pushing the game forward to the point where they'd basically be keen for an elimination so the thread doesn't get too clogged. But now Cape is suspicious for hammering someone they were largely fine to eliminate all along.

Also of course this has Yeet voting for a now night-eliminated mason even though they didn't really believe they were mafia at the time. Hardly the approach of players fine for a round to drag out to be ultra-careful and not end up forcing a role reveal.

Increasingly don't think there's any reason the two players here can't be mafia together.

yeah, again, this is where VP's insinuations don't match what he's actually saying. when asked to commit to some actual individual scumreads, he lists 6 people (3297) and none of them are nero, but here he's discrediting nero in a way that can only imply that he thinks nero is scum. it's just shade for the sake of shade and he doesn't actually believe it. i don't know why anyone would do that unless they're maf

If VP is mafia, I'd wager there's at least one mafia in that list of six who's been thrown in there to create some distance. Maybe Yeet possibly? I feel like Yeet's in this weird position where there's a few players who have cast doubt on them at times without ever going in any further on the case.

I think we should consolidate on one of HEM/Tenebro to push pressure and advance game state rather than splitting

Isn't town's biggest power early in large games driving dueling wagons? That's how you get good info for future use. Why do you think we should focus on one and not the other here?

I just finished reading through page 10, so I'm still in catch up. Here is kind of what I have for reads out of that so far:


Town:

Frogsterking

- early attack on Yeet over game delay is tinfoil I'd expect from town FK

Yeet

- wild noob read after wild noob read. Somewhat question if Yeet is not an alt though, in which case maybe this means nothing.

fireisredsir

- has independent thought, calling out post 116 as bad is good. Also seems to not mind poking people, which I appreciate.

skitter30

- Kind of like their pressure on Datisi, but think the over defense of tenesbro is unwarranted. This is probably closer to a null read than a townread in terms of confidence, but I like that she is mixing it up.

Cape90

- probably town for finding frogster town and asking pretty open questions.

Ari

- I like her pressure and vote on monkey when he was being kind of ridiculous.


Null:

DeasVail

- commenting, but not doing a ton. Maybe lean townish.


Scum:

fua

- I find the hard scum read of tenesbro a little contrived, and possibly piling on to a popular opinion in thread.

monkey

- The whole intereaction with ari looks like monkey got over confident with a poke and couldn't explain the position.

why do you think ari and i are tvt? i came out of that scumreading ari.

so you think ari and datisi are scum buddies here? idgi

it is unfortunate Dats views the world through the lens of cautious paranoia but its also kind of endearing <3

in 90% of cases, yes.

That LimLo in Guardians was excruciating!

HEM dropped in a bit aggressively, Ari posted a readslist where he was at the bottom, and he asked her to elaborate on all of them.

Yes, and HEM was flipping a shit somewhat unprompted when Ari asked for clarification. His overreaction to that whole situation was why he got run up. It read as scum misreading and overreacting to the intent of a question.

What is the case on Ari? I'm going to give up on reading pages of spam shitting from a bunch of people.

Ari, vote Wu.

Furthermore VP before I posted the game was wagoning two masons
It was terrible play before I even posted.

Actually, I was pushing for Wu or HEM flip, and that's where the day was heading, not toward both the masons getting wagoned. You just didn't read the game before you claimed.

I'm not even mad at you for claiming. Whatever. Not how I would have played it, but I get where you're coming from. It's the same logic as our last game when I cleared A50.

But listen, you spamming the thread to make the same points again and again is not helpful. You only need to say it once. The beauty of forum mafia is that your words are immortalized forever and people can refer back to them.

When I say loud, I mean you spam the thread and say the same things repeatedly and insist you're right even if lots of other people disagree. It's exhausting and makes catching up impossible for people.

I'm trying to work with you. if you have an actual Ari case, post that shit.

There’s a wagon on Ari for a reason
Stop focusing on me if you’re town.

WHAT IS THE REASON FOR THE ARI WAGON?????????

Like I asked for this case more than once, and "she argued with Hem and doesn't vote WU" is not a fucking case. So ELI5


And I'm talking to you because you're 50% of the posts in a LARGE GAME since you entered. If you would chill the fuck out and stop trying to big dick energy the whole game, we could land somewhere good today. There have been 12+ pages added since I got up 5 hours ago, and you can't tell me that is quality work happening in those pages because I read half of them before I had to come here to the future and plead with you to have some sense.

Ari, you want to join me on the Wu wagon?

Math, you officially have the most posts in the game. Let that sink in.

It’s a pretty outlandish claim all of herself, VP, Skitter, Datisi, fire, and Yeet are all town.
It’s even more outlandish DV, tene, Cape, and Nero are all town.

Yeah, what you're saying is fair here. There has to be some scum in there when that is half the town.

Did ari say both the mason wagons are pure? If so I missed that in the pages I didn't read

it's in the way that you dismiss the case against ari and have announced that the past 20 pages are barely worth reading. it sends the wrong message.

please consider this post when backreading ari. i would like to know what you think about it, even if it's a dissenting opinion.

I can see the case you're making. What I'm trying to weigh is that ari and mathblade just finished a bitter AF game, and it's behind them, but also I am certain there are tender egos there. So it's like, is ari just acting contrarian to Math because of that?

Math did come in this game and start yelling in a similar way to that past game. I wasn't even alive when that fight happened and it was kind of triggering for me.

Ari's replaced, so I'm not really that attached and if we just yeet that slot D1, then whatever. D1 in a large isn't that important.

I think Wu looks not great in wagon positions and the fact his wagon falls apart at e-5 everytime is a red flag for me, but I'm not lockscum on anyone at this point and can be convinced to compromise.

But also, Ari's readslist was kind of a turd.

Does anyone have any thoughts on the possibility of VP/April being teammates together? I feel like it's a definite possibility and there's nothing in ISOs to necessarily discredit it for the most part.

VP feels like they're regularly throwing a lot of softball questions at Ari early game with fairly soft defences of them as well. They don't necessarily commit to the slot being full-on town because that potentially makes any association all too clear, but there are notably a few questions to the rest of the town against Ari - what's the case against them etc, in case VP was maybe reluctant to mount too strong a defence in case somebody had a more solid read on them. Likewise VP discredits their readlist to potentially create some distance between them, but doesn't necessarily elaborate on what's wrong with it at all.

I'd be intrigued to know VP's thoughts on how April has played the game so far, and what they make of what I thought was April's fairly flimsy mafia case against me.

Sorry Fire, but none of this makes sense from the point of me and VP being teammates. I'm genuinely baffled at this because your reads have been solid so far but VP has consistently been someone I've applied pressure to. There's no incentive to most of these posts from a mafia POV given VP has been under consistent pressure.

[MalcolmTucker]

Can someone actually outline what the actual case is against me beyond vibes and players who replaced in and made their decision on me without reading back on any previous posts? Like I'm keen to respond in the morning but there is not a single post here that makes a solid case for anything resembling elimination.

[MalcolmTucker]

Like why is April's slot under so little pressure? It was heavily pushed on day one, Ari left the game, April came in, argued they weren't mafia based on their lack of posting, despite being a replace-in, then accused me and admitted they had no clue as to what was actually going on in the game while doing so, and yet has stuck to that wagon since. It's just such a nonsense case and it's ridiculous town are even contemplating it at the moment.

[MalcolmTucker]

Sorry Fire, but none of this makes sense from the point of me and VP being teammates. I'm genuinely baffled at this because your reads have been solid so far but VP has consistently been someone I've applied pressure to. There's no incentive to most of these posts from a mafia POV given VP has been under consistent pressure.

what makes you think my reads are solid? i don't feel very confident in them

also disagree, those kind of posts are very in the range of what maf partners will do

Why am I, hypothetically as mafia, spending time building a proper team case against a teammate who has the most votes this round? It's just incredibly counterproductive.

I generally just feel your reads have been solid so far, generally interesting without feeling too aligned to any agenda.

[MalcolmTucker]

Can someone actually outline what the actual case is against me beyond vibes and players who replaced in and made their decision on me without reading back on any previous posts? Like I'm keen to respond in the morning but there is not a single post here that makes a solid case for anything resembling elimination.

Does there need to be a case?

Yes? We're over 3,000 posts in, what are you doing if you are considering eliminating someone without a case for them?

[MalcolmTucker]

Like why is April's slot under so little pressure? It was heavily pushed on day one, Ari left the game, April came in, argued they weren't mafia based on their lack of posting, despite being a replace-in, then accused me and admitted they had no clue as to what was actually going on in the game while doing so, and yet has stuck to that wagon since. It's just such a nonsense case and it's ridiculous town are even contemplating it at the moment.

Did you ever pressure the slot?

(I honestly don’t remember and can’t easily check rn so it’s a genuine question)

Not until April posted regularly - I've stated before I thought Ari seemed genuine because I didn't think mafia would pressure the masons so hard, but April's read of me has been so weak and incoherent that I feel like it's borderline desperate mafia trying to build a case against someone else with little to go on.

[MalcolmTucker]

My way too early prediction theory right now is:

Malcolm, Fire, Scorpius, Skitter slot

If I may contribute another reason to my case for Scorp town, I do not think as scum he would have reacted to my defending him by questioning my motives. He needed allies at that time and I think he would have just taken it.

Noted. Yeah, I had scorp town for a while too, so it's really a POE slot for me.

What're your thoughts on Malcolm?

I think he could be scum, not feeling it super strongly. I think he likes to hide behind a veneer of reasonability that makes it hard for me to read him in either direction, and you have some good points,

and his "wah, no case" defense is no less unconvincing than when VP did it.

So I'm planning to stick with my VP vote, but I am not mad there is a malcolm wagon at all.

I genuinely don't like to approach the game this way, because I'm aware I've gotten at you for similar and VP for similar as well. I'm happy to be productive and helpful (once I finally get to bed and then get up in the morning).

But I genuinely need to know what the case against me is to be able to do so. I don't think you can compare me with VP. The current wagon against me has sort of materialised out of nowhere and doesn't feel particularly strong or logic-based. The main person behind it is April. April basically admitted they "shoot their shot" too early. What does this mean? It feels like mafia admitting they built a case on someone they had no evidence on, but they kept pursuing it anyway.

Then you have Eyes. I have no strong mafia read on Eyes, but until now Eyes has directed no suspicion towards me. It's not a strong case. Likewise, Yeet has repeatedly said they don't have particularly strong reads and they have gone for me.

Fire's read feels weak...felt they've played well so far but I don't get what it is based on. The idea of me and VP as a team is just bollocks for anyone checking ISOs regularly.

Like there's one player here who consistently has thought I'm mafia, and they're a replace-in who basically bragged about not reading up on the game early doors and admitted they went in on me too early.

[MalcolmTucker]

Like why is April's slot under so little pressure? It was heavily pushed on day one, Ari left the game, April came in, argued they weren't mafia based on their lack of posting, despite being a replace-in, then accused me and admitted they had no clue as to what was actually going on in the game while doing so, and yet has stuck to that wagon since. It's just such a nonsense case and it's ridiculous town are even contemplating it at the moment.

Did you ever pressure the slot?

(I honestly don’t remember and can’t easily check rn so it’s a genuine question)

Not until April posted regularly - I've stated before I thought Ari seemed genuine because I didn't think mafia would pressure the masons so hard, but April's read of me has been so weak and incoherent that I feel like it's borderline desperate mafia trying to build a case against someone else with little to go on.

Why would she be desperate?

A replace-in starting with a weak hand. Ari was under heavy suspicion until they backed out. Then April said little on turn one. Since then the slot has escaped suspicion.

[MalcolmTucker]

If you think we are partners, why are you getting off my much bigger wagon?

i think it's a possibility. and cause i think april has cool ideas and im a big fan of the sudden unexpected wagon to see if it throws scum off their balance

This is fake as fuck

It genuinely might be the worst theory of the game so far and I've rated most of Fire's posts. You might be mafia. I know I'm not, but feck it, I get why it's sensible to apply some pressure. The idea we're mafia together is genuinely just incoherent.

[MalcolmTucker]

Like why is April's slot under so little pressure? It was heavily pushed on day one, Ari left the game, April came in, argued they weren't mafia based on their lack of posting, despite being a replace-in, then accused me and admitted they had no clue as to what was actually going on in the game while doing so, and yet has stuck to that wagon since. It's just such a nonsense case and it's ridiculous town are even contemplating it at the moment.

She is solving. Not exactly rocket science to piece together why she isn't getting votes.

Solving what exactly? Posting reads is what anyone else is doing. What is the turn one history of this slot being ignored entirely?

[MalcolmTucker]

In a smaller game I could see mafia Malcolm pressuring VP a bit to create deliberate distance. But in a 15+ person game there is just absolutely no sense in me going through proper ISO hunts on VP if they are my teammate to try and higlight a possible mafia case when they are already under pressure. Whatever you think of us individually, the case for us as a team is just entirely non-existent.

[MalcolmTucker]

Look through my ISO and analyse all my mentions of VP if you want. It is fundamentally not the ISO of teammates, there is no need for me to so consistently suspect them at this point in the game.

[MalcolmTucker]

VP's continual theory that Nero/Wu may have been mafia together and that Nero was potentially backing away from Wu because they were teammates really made no sense at all to me but they notably kept pushing it, in posts 1339, 1344, 1939 and 2128 to give just some examples.

It just doesn't chime. Nero was basically the first player in the game to mention that Wu was not contributing a heavy amount and that they were coming across as suspicious for it. I don't see why there'd be any benefit to throwing your teammate into the mix like that early in the game...in retrospect without that post it's quite possible there'd have never been a bandwagon against Wu at all in turn one.

I dunno, the way VP just kept pushing this felt strange, as if it was potential mafia who'd come up with a theory to push Nero/Wu and who felt like they couldn't drop it without seeming suspicious for doing so.

Again this was one of my first posts turn two. I have no reason to properly start mafia-casing VP this early having barely done so before. As a townie, my big readthrough (I had like 50 pages to catch up on) flipped VP from very null to potential mafia.

[MalcolmTucker]

Look through my ISO and analyse all my mentions of VP if you want. It is fundamentally not the ISO of teammates, there is no need for me to so consistently suspect them at this point in the game.

Your intense focus on the viability of a you-VP mafia team is very curious!

I note you aren't addressing the points being made here.

[MalcolmTucker]

Like why is April's slot under so little pressure? It was heavily pushed on day one, Ari left the game, April came in, argued they weren't mafia based on their lack of posting, despite being a replace-in, then accused me and admitted they had no clue as to what was actually going on in the game while doing so, and yet has stuck to that wagon since. It's just such a nonsense case and it's ridiculous town are even contemplating it at the moment.

Let's assume April's case against you is incorrect, why should that automatically mean town should be pressuring April?

Ari's slot was under heavy pressure day one but that basically died out right after the replacement. Which can basically apply to about half the game now.

[MalcolmTucker]

VOTE: Yeet

Constant vote changes, terrible logic for all of them. A prime suspect I reckon.

[MalcolmTucker]

Tell you what April, I'll give Malcom today to respond. Lacking that, I'll give you my vote by EOD

Afternoon, sorry, busy weekend. All I can really say here is that April's mafia read on me has been inconsistent and just isn't that strong.

April's initial suspicion of me came when I was pushing tenebros a while back after they'd entered the game. Whatever you think of tenebros I don't think my arguments were particularly incorrect or suspicious at all, tenebros was regularly dodging and deflecting questions and just generally wasn't being helpful. At the same time they weren't particularly committing to reads. Their game came across as incredibly suspect and I personally think I was correct to push on that.

Post 3152 from April implies I was backing off tenebros in a way that could seem acceptable if I was mafia and they were town but I'd been incredibly consistent from early in day two that tenebros was suspect but far from confirmed mafia. In a large game where plenty of people have had reads all over the place this seems like a perfectly acceptable line to take, and I'm not sure why I was targeted so strongly for wavering when players like Yeet, tenebros and others have done the same in worse circumstances.

As I've mentioned before, in post 3473 April mentions "shooting their shot" too early on me. This is important because it suggests their initial mafia read was a bit of a lazy one which was based more on initial vibes than actually reading back through the game and trying to deduce who is mafia and who isn't. I'm accused of "pandering to the popular choice" but again I don't think this particularly lines up with how I've approached the game so far for the most part.

And again, I'm certainly far from the worst in this regard when there are other players who have opportunistically thrown their vote onto easy wagons without giving an explanation for doing so. Why am I the target here, for reasonable interrogations of players who I think might be mafia? The suggestion seems to be I need to be a lot more forthright and definitive in who I suspect but this again seems like a silly reason to push for me when there are players who have been much worse in this regard when it comes to inactivity. It's perfectly reasonable for townies to occasionally change their mind on a player or to be open to persuasion. That's good town-play.

Again in post 3705 April says there's not a strong case against me and yet I've been by far their most consistent push. I think it's fine to have a read based on vibes and to push a player who's had a lack of suspicion so far, but this just doesn't line up with a deliberate and continuous push for my elimination. In turn two you should really not be pushing to eliminate a player you don't have at least a somewhat strong read on. Even above you can see April's frustration the wagon against me hasn't taken off, but have they taken a moment to maybe evaluate why that is the case?

And the end result is I don't think this case against me is particularly genuine or well thought-out. It feels as if April read a couple of my posts early on, decided I was mafia, and has since tried to make the evidence fit that instead of the other way around. I'm expected to respond here to the case against me, for example, but what is the actual case against me? And if there isn't really one and this is all based on a hunch, why am I being targeted instead of a more inactive player who's given across similar vibes?

[MalcolmTucker]

Anyway, regarding players other than myself, I still think a wagon on Scorpious this turn isn't a particularly good idea, their play hasn't been great but it's felt lazy and overly convenient whenever it has come up.

My two main choices would be Yeet and tenebros, but both of them look safe for now and so I wouldn't be against a YPB wagon if it looks like our best option.

It's a difficult one because I don't particularly TR all of our newer turn two/end of turn one replace-ins but it may be a bit premature to get rid of them.

I can't figure out if April's reads of me are just persistent townie who's in the wrong or mafia trying to throw townies under the bus for their own convenience. Like I say their read of me hasn't been consistent or genuine but some of their posts (like admitting they don't have a solid case for me) don't exactly feel like how a forensic mafia player approaches the game.

[MalcolmTucker]

Quick skim of the last 6-7 pages. I don't see Baltar or April as scum.

Looks like town Math.

Scorpious I can see as lazy town or lazy scum either one. Eyes w/out a face maybe town, I don't know, the JAQing doesn't do much for me.

Math is confirmed town, mason. Their partner died in first night turn after the reveal.

[MalcolmTucker]

VOTE: VP

Nope. Now I kinda want VP since Galron is pinging me hard.

My meta the past few posts has been extremely different from prior games he has seen me in so I suspect that was coached which means I am doing what scum want so VP needs to go even though I personally TR him

Regardless of flip Galron needs to die.

What does flipping me have to do with galron?

Galron would be scumreading me for not hyperposting. Yet instead he goes this is town math. Therefore Galron is scum.

Galron as scum scumreading me means that I am doing what scum want. Therefore scum want me not on VP.

if Galron were mafia though, would they not at least ask their buddies for who has a role etc so far? I see where you're going with this and the logic isn't bad, but it seems feasible as well Galron just hasn't read up on a lot of the game so far and through out a quick read.

[MalcolmTucker]

Because if you were informed I was a mason before making that post then there’s no reason to put out a town read on me because conf town.

I don't think math is wrong about this. Weird to say you saw math confirmed town and then posted a town case. I'll check timestamps on this later...


Anyhow,

VOTE: malcom

I think it's me, Malcom or Scorp today. After taking some time to deliberate, Scorp is kind of a low info yeet. I'm still not sold on Malcom, but I think it's a flip that will help illuminate April's alignment more clearly, and that is good for the game long term.

No offense if it ends up being me today, just consider my reads seriously when I'm dead if that is the case.

Pedit- Nero remains the biggest village idiot in this game. I stated in the hood that those are the only reasonable yeets and he comes into thread to state it like he isn't regurgitating my thoughts as his own.

I'm naturally against an elimination on myself given I'm town, but I don't necessarily disagree with this logic: Scorpious is a low effort elimination and if nothing else me/you going out would hopefully provide some useful info in terms of alignments going forward.

[MalcolmTucker]

It feels as if April read a couple of my posts early on, decided I was mafia, and has since tried to make the evidence fit that instead of the other way around

This is how I feel about some of the things you've said about me. What goes around comes around I guess.

I'd disagree with that entirely. I'd say I mostly TR'd you early on since your approach felt too blatant to be mafia. Since then though your playing style has changed completely and your reads have become a lot less clear and a lot more jumpy.

[MalcolmTucker]

Does vig get a shot every turn or is it just once per game? Assumed it'd been squandered if it was the latter.

[MalcolmTucker]

VOTE: VP

Nope. Now I kinda want VP since Galron is pinging me hard.

My meta the past few posts has been extremely different from prior games he has seen me in so I suspect that was coached which means I am doing what scum want so VP needs to go even though I personally TR him

Regardless of flip Galron needs to die.

I read this post tice and am struggling to get it still. If Galron is the one you want why are you voting VP? You started by stating Galron was pinging you so you want VP (!!) and ended with Galron needs to die regardless. (Sorry if there's something I misunderstood)

Math is thinking of vig here I believe, they want Galron taken out that way. We're also at a point where it's probably difficult to see a new wagon emerging entirely barring a major push.

[MalcolmTucker]

Vig Dragons, Titus, Galron, or the survivor of Malc/VP if they flip town.

So you think all these people are scum?

No, but I don't townread them and I think they'd provide some info.

What info does a Dragons vig provide?

I'd love to know why Scorp is always pushed instead of him.

Surely this could go for vice versa here too though? I'm not sure what STD has particularly done at any point regarding their lack of activity or not keeping up with the game that wouldn't also apply to Scorpious. I don't think either of them should be eliminated this turn for what it's worth but this feels like weak reasoning.

[MalcolmTucker]

i don't think it's vp
i don't think it's malcolm
i think tene's scorpius towncase is bunk
i think it's scorpius

tene's suspicion on people on scorp doesn't make sense either, i don't see why scum would try so hard to get a nothingburger slot limmed over one of the two wagons people posting

Could be a bit of both? Whatever is happening it's unlikely mafia are all jumping on wagons together, bit too obvious. No doubt some of the people who've quickly switched votes or changed preferences will be town. It's just that it's also a good place for mafia to hide.

[MalcolmTucker]

I am at the bottom of page 123 and

at that point

I think I have more or less developed reads that look like this:

Town reads: Nero, VP, Enchant, fire, STD, Deas

Almost-Town: Yeet, Malcolm

Can't decide: Scorp, Datisi, skitter, April, Cape

Scum leans: tene, frog

Note that these are mostly impressions although claims do play a part of it. Also names in each category are not necessarily ordered

VOTE: Malcolm

Willing to give this a try but I reserve the right to retract my vote if I am not satisfied with the result.

Malcolm why are you just sitting on your vanity wagon with 2.5 days to deadline but not pushing me?

Quite simply I've just not bothered changing yet - if VP is going out I'm okay with that but you've been a bigger mafia read for me so far. I generally only vote sparingly whenever I play anyway, and aware VP's votes are building up so not necessarily wanting to just jump in and let someone hammer if there are any last minute changes to be had.

But if it makes you happy:

UNVOTE: Yeet

[MalcolmTucker]

Sorry did not mean to quote Eyes above - was in regards to a different post re their varying suspicion of me so far, and how it kinda suddenly flipped, with Eyes' excuse for that being fairly poor. But yeah, that addresses Yeet's enquiry anyway.

[MalcolmTucker]

VP what would you be doing differently if you were scum this game?

Not listing so many people off and drawing so much attention to myself. I probably would have played nice with Nero earlier and wouldn't have opened the day in a very aggressive manner. I'd be calling town players who are on the wrong track smart and be playing with my long term survivability in mind.

Yeah, this kind of checks out, honestly. I'm once again fine with you being town here.

I kinda feel like quite a few players are TR'ing VP without making a particularly substantive or developed case for him being so that might implicate anyone else. Mostly it's just "I'd be sad to see VP eliminated" or "he's town" but VP himself is the only one who has particularly made a strong "VP town" case.

[MalcolmTucker]

Malcolm why are you just sitting on your vanity wagon with 2.5 days to deadline but not pushing me?

probably because he is town.

Profound idea I had there

?

Oh

I thought you were referring to 2 different people in 4277 and not just yourself twice. Which is kinda odd like, wouldn't voting a vanity wagon that is you

be

a push on you?

Not sure I like Malcolm's unvote on you right after that to be fair with you

I think it's fair enough - for the moment it seems fairly evident Yeet isn't going to go out unless anyone else in potentially willing to join me on that wagon at all. If they aren't then it's a completely wasted vote and I'm best reconsidering. As stated before I generally vote sparingly in most games anyway and will assess any larger wagons before jumping on them. If we're at an impasse and struggling for numbers I'd be happy to put through the VP wagon to move the game on. But Yeet would still be my first choice for elimination if the game as a whole was open to an elimination other than me, Scorpious or VP at this stage with the deadline nearing.

[MalcolmTucker]

Also to address Yeet's point - I have pushed them regularly and if they want I'm happy to continue doing so, but I'd say I've made most of my main points for now and the wagon does not appear to be convincing anyone for this turn even if it may work next round. What else is there for me to say? If I kept on at Yeet constantly right now I'd likely be accused of tunnelling them in a way that'd be perceived as unhelpful. Also I've just generally not been active and I haven't made a lot of posts in the past couple of days.

[MalcolmTucker]

What I'd say re me/Cape is that they've quite strongly TR'd me in a way that would be a bit obvious and potentially OTT for someone who - if they're mafia from a town POV - seems to have played relatively well so far without coming under heavy suspicion. But I do accept there's nothing which would disassociate ourselves from each other - we've both consistently TR'd each other. That's honest on my part, would expect it is from Cape too but could obviously be playing well.

Part of me does wonder if we're looking in the wrong direction here. It's rightly pointed out above that we seem to have settled on one of three (maybe two) eliminations now and I'm interested as to why that's the case - feasibly there's no reason we can't develop further wagons or make fresh pushes but the game has notably quietened down, which makes me wonder if mafia are either in a place they're content with if VP is town, or if they feel the writing is on the wall with VP if they're mafia and don't want to double down on any major defence of countervote which could seem suspect in retrospect if said person were to come back town.

And for that I can't figure out in my mind re a VP wagon. The defences of him feel soft and non-committal, in a way that could either be mafia not wanting to stop the bandwagon without wanting to seem too keen for it if VP is town, but which could also be perceived as mafia teammates offering soft defences of their buddy without going into too many specifics.

But I do worry how much we'll actually find out if VP comes back town post-elimination. A lot of the mafia reads of VP have felt genuine in a way that could be feigned by potential mafia members. Likewise I don't feel as if anyone has batted for VP to an extent or in a way which clears them, could be an easy way to grab some town cred given VP has been under pressure for so much of the turn.

There is a part of me which wonders if I'm the best elimination from an info POV if VP isn't mafia - when I come back town you get to see who pushed me and when and why they did so, how they were wrong and in what way, and how others reacted as a result given the push was mostly out of nowhere and has never been backed up by any solid logic - even now half of my voters are players who admit they don't even suspect me all that much but obviously see me as the only alternative now to a VP wagon. There's some potentially interesting stuff in there - Yeet, April, Eyes and fire would all come out from it looking quite poor I reckon, although obviously not all of them are going to be mafia.

If VP was definitely confirmed town in my mind I'd maybe push more strongly on this but it's the fact they're still in my top three/four mafia reads without being nailed on that makes me unsure. Could be a convoluted way to just throw an easy escape to mafia.

[MalcolmTucker]

if you mean malc before cape, then yes,

cause starting a new wagon at this point is probs not a good idea

. if you mean malc before you, then yes ofc we do bc in that world you are town. im not sure if it is a world i believe in or not but im thinking and rereading rn

I won't push this too extensively, because it doesn't look like it's going to go anywhere, but why is this an inherently bad idea?

It seems like common consensus right now that a lot of us are inherently unsure about the top three potential vote-outs in the game. Why have we not spent our time, as a result of this, trying to deduce potential alternatives when we had around half a week remaining to do so? The game has slowed down - who is inherently benefiting from this and why? I just find it interesting that a lot of players seem to have stopped pushing any new potential wagons and seem content with a state of play we're agreeing is less than satisfactory. Maybe it's just the confusion with all the replace-ins, hard to tell.

[MalcolmTucker]

then again ig he did disappear last friday too so maybe that's just an irl schedule thing. kinda weird tho that he said multiple times "i will defend myself tomorrow!!" and then never came back

On this, I think that if he didn't have support this would make more sense, but I think it is very encouraging for scum to have even one vocal town member saying they're not scum, so I feel like even me saying that I thought Malcolm could be more likely town would... motivate him somewhat if he were scum. An exception could be if he and VP were both scum, which would be understandably demotivating.

I'd argue that in general it's still a comfortable minority who have actually been suspecting me at all. You've TR'd me. Cape has largely TR'd for me as well. If I remember correctly Nero hasn't exactly been behind the case. Until April started suspecting me I'd basically been subjected to little pressure throughout the game so far barring the occasional vote. And even now only two players voting for me remain confident I'm actually mafia, with the main one who started it essentially admitting they had no effective case against me.

[MalcolmTucker]

the extent to which the game feels stuck here the last few days is weird af and probably meaningful in some way but ill let the smart people figure out what that means

my instinct tho is that it means either scum is in the leading wagons and the rest of the team isn't positioned well enough or isn't active enough to push a counter/commit to a bus, or that the leading wagons are all town, and scum are apathetic about which one goes through. but on play i think the first option is the case

I think it's either mafia are content with the wagons and keen not to push anything new - or VP is mafia and they don't want to rock the boat too much on the off-chance people cave and go for an alternative wagon.

[MalcolmTucker]

VOTE: Fire

What was the reason for this switch out of interest?

[MalcolmTucker]

Why Enchant is so scummy this game is beyond me. Feels like he's just lolcatting scum? But I still kind of refuse to elim there like in the next few game days because fua was so towny, but I would like Enchant to play and help town more I guess

Was Fua townie? I'm pretty sure their reveal only came because they looked increasingly mafia. Only reason for trusting them so far has been the vig claim. Definitely interesting how all of the newer players (aside from April) have largely sat back this turn and let the rest of us fight among ourselves.

[MalcolmTucker]

Ok, anyhow, moving on...

I haven’t been keeping tabs on the case on you because I’ve been kind of tunneled and focused on a few other players to the point where I just forgot what I thought of you. You hadn’t posted in a while so other people were more prevalent.

Where is your head at currently with your scum reads? I have a hard time tracking who you actually want to lim.

Town:
Malcolm - Reasons I've already explained. I think that he's level-headed and approaching situations with nuance, and also after going back through ISOs I agree that the case on Datisi.
Datisi - I've gone through ISOs and liked his posting a lot. I think it's a solid townie mindset and I don't see what other people see in him.
Nero - I know how Nero plays. This is probably town Nero. Handled GeneralWu well and I think he's right with that read.
Frogster - Weirdly misguided townie who seems way too overeager to catch a scum early. Could be right, but for the wrong reasons. Easy townie on my end and I can't see any associatives.
Skitter30 - I also think she is misguided town. I disagree with a chunk of her townreads and basically all of her scumreads except for maybe Eyes. I especially don't see a case on Nero at all.
STD - Has brought new ideas to the table and is putting in some effort to be visible and play the game. More of a townlean than full town, but still.

Townlean:
VP Baltar - I have issues with your list, but I think your questioning lines are genuine and you are attempting to sort people.
Cape90 - Same.

Null/Not enough info:
Eyes - Barely anything in their ISO and not enough to read them off of.
Tenebro - There have been a few posts I've really liked and a few I've really hated. I've cooled off on them though and I'm not going to revote them unless something changes down the line.
HEM - I can see his play coming from scum or just apathetic town. I think he's just snappy and confrontational in general and I don't see a case on him.
Ari - Not gonna talk about this slot right now, but I can see both cases.
Nordom - Probably just an insensitive moron. No idea what to make of him and I want to see how his replacement handles things.
Scorpious - He looks scummy, but that's true of literally every game he plays. It's not worth pursuing for now and I doubt there's any valuable info we can get out of it even if he does flip scum.

Scummy:
DeasVail - This is the slot I'm least sure on. I think depending on Nordom's alignment it could MAYBE go either way, but for right now I don't see how they can TR HEM with little explanation while SRing Nordom for his snappy dismissiveness. It feels a little bit inconsistent to me and like they're going with the easy route.
Fireisred - It's been pointed out that they're mostly playing the mediator and I'm inclined to agree. They've kind of been piling on to individual wagons and their three votes have just been whatever's easiest to pick out at the time. I think their callout of Tenebro was okay but I also want to see who they actually scumread throughout today.
Yeet - One of the more prominent pushers of the Datisi wagon. I think that Malcolm pointing out their inconsistency on the case on Datisi was a good thing, and going through their posts it kind of looks like they're pushing Datisi's posts into a scum mindset in a square peg round hole kind of deal. They briefly switched to skitter for not SRing Datisi like they did but switched back to him right after, so I don't really think they're actually taking new information into account.


Scum:
GeneralWu - Their ISO is a huge ball of nothing, they've got like 1-2 actual comments on the game compared to the game that Fire linked earlier where they got right down to business, and they ghosted the thread shortly after being called out by Nero and haven't posted in almost a day. My vote is staying here.

Is that good enough for you?

This readslist is really boring. I'm not a fan.

VOTE: Fua

Frogsterking, I am ready to shake this tree with you.

What do people think of fua/if there is anything particular townie about them I would be interested. The predominant concern I have with this slot is that I see a very bland ISO which to me signals scum going through the motions.

Yeah, but the difference is that I’m not jumping on whatever the most popular wagon is just because it was in style to do so. I don’t see how SRing Ari, Deas. and Fire are lukewarm takes at all considering others look at them as consensus town and I’m interested in what your definition of lukewarm actually is. Who are your scumreads besides me? At the moment it just feels like OMGUS and nothing else. Even Skitter is voting me because my takes are the opposite of hers, so these are some strange double standards.

This was a really weird reaction to my push

Im glad to see fua is getting more votes. I don’t understand the context behind this yet but I will take a closer look when I have time.

Im glad to see fua is getting more votes. I don’t understand the context behind this yet but I will take a closer look when I have time.

Why would you be glad to see someone getting more votes without knowing the context?

Because fua is currently my top scumspect. It’s pretty simple…

One problem I have with fua is that I would classify their reactions are very “reactionary” or containing “naked aggression” or “subtly threatening”. I will quote some examples that I have seen from their interactions in me. I believe these to be scum traits when pushed.

VOTE: skitter That is an unfortunate development.

What is unfortunate?

That fua was the vig (likely) and not scum.

Actually maybe that’s not quite accurate. In general I am more of a townhunter and I don’t get scumpings that often. So it’s more of people going from null to town for me rather than scum to town (like Datisi skitter and fua are the 3 I can think of that went scum to town for me).

so, like, in total? 6.5/10, my gamestate reads aren't always great, but i would not mind a wagon here

what does a 6.5/10 mean?

official datisi rating of the scorpious wagon

btw can we kill enchant pls he's like blatantly scum who's coasting on a bullshit vig claim

I could see it but Enchant is just kind of a troll as either alignment iirc. It’s not enough for me to back out on fua atm. Fua was a bit too townie/vig-like for me I think.

Why Enchant is so scummy this game is beyond me. Feels like he's just lolcatting scum? But I still kind of refuse to elim there like in the next few game days because fua was so towny, but I would like Enchant to play and help town more I guess

Yeet's idea in retrospect they perceived Fua as townie is a complete retcon of how they played things on day one, for what it's worth. They only began to believe Fua might be townie after the initial claim was made, but you wouldn't really get back judging from some of these more recent above posts.

[MalcolmTucker]

*wouldn't really get that

[MalcolmTucker]

VOTE: Cape90 Let’s start with this greedy hammer vote. Sure it could be town miscounting but scum could totally use that as an excuse. I am unhappy that instead of running Wu up, we ended up straight hammering him, and I have seen scum just go for the kill because wifom. Why Cape is getting zero scrutiny is shocking to me.Plus they are in a hood with VP and Nero and skitter who I all believe to be stronger town than Cape atm.

Cape your hammer is not NAI because there is obvious scum motivation to do it.

re: the hood - i have at least a light town read on everyone, is it possible it's pure? i'll reassess and see if i change my mind.

Yeah maybe, although cape is a ??? For me rn

UNVOTE: Cape90 Cape and Baltar is probably TvT.

I think Cape’s reaction today has been pretty annoying but townie. And I independently TR’d VP, also his reactions are what I’d expect as well. And we also vibe on a lot of sentiments but at the end of the road we look for different things as specific alignment tells. I don’t think I explained that very well but that roughly encapsulates where I am on him. There’s very little reason for me to think Baltar is scum, at least.

Fua v skitter
Cape v Baltar
Nero

All these slot seem like town to me. I would like to push outside of these 5 today.

VOTE: MalcolmTucker

I don’t townread this slot and honestly I’m sort of running out of places I want to vote.

Yeet's progression on Cape is also strange. Cape came under some initial pressure for their hammer vote but this was never really sustained. I personally think they're town but I'm not sure there's any reason for players who found the hammer vote incredibly scummy to be convinced with a couple of good posts from a player who's notably quite strong. It feels telegraphed to an extent, as if they realised Cape would be a hard target to nail.

It reminds me a bit of the attempted Datisi wagon on D1 since Yeet was also on that - player gets pressure but when certain slots are involved it just never really goes anywhere and fizzles out, as if mafia decide they're not that keen on it after all because it's not beneficial for them in the long-term and exposes them too much.

[MalcolmTucker]

It'd be a late wagon but I'd narrowly prefer it to VP at this point I think. I'd at least be interested to see who gets onboard with it since that could be telling due to the game stalling.

What are your reads out of interest, Enchant? What do you make of Yeet's view you're playing like you're mafia at the moment, and should we see your willingness to jump on a potential Yeet bandwagon as suspicious or genuine good town play?

[MalcolmTucker]

It'd be a late wagon but I'd narrowly prefer it to VP at this point I think. I'd at least be interested to see who gets onboard with it since that could be telling due to the game stalling.

What are your reads out of interest, Enchant? What do you make of Yeet's view you're playing like you're mafia at the moment, and should we see your willingness to jump on a potential Yeet bandwagon as suspicious or genuine good town play?

Didn't understand question.

Yeet thinks your play is quite mafia. Should we see your backing of a wagon on them as good, genuine town play here? What makes you keen on it?

[MalcolmTucker]

Your play has been null to me since you haven't said much of note, but I'm willing to still believe the vig claim.

My point is - what makes you back my potential wagon for Yeet?

[MalcolmTucker]

Malcolm is basically attacking me again for changing reads frequently, which as he himself said, is what townies should do. I legitimately don’t think I can change reads this quickly and jumpily as scum because I wouldn’t evaluate new information in a genuine way.

My problem isn't re you switching reads, it's that you don't really ever seem to properly push a lot of your reads. Your sudden flip re Cape after you made some very conclusive statements about him just feels far too convenient. I think it's natural to gain or lose interest in some reads but you don't even seem to push the reads you do have all that consistently either to be honest, which again goes against your very early gameplay.

[MalcolmTucker]

Why Enchant is so scummy this game is beyond me. Feels like he's just lolcatting scum? But I still kind of refuse to elim there like in the next few game days because fua was so towny, but I would like Enchant to play and help town more I guess

Here's kind of where I'm at:

Math
Galron Nero enchant - TRs
Baltar cape deasvail - TLs
tenebro eyes Titus April - north of null
Scorpious frog fire std - null I guess?
Malcolm - South of null

Claims is a trash. I more actually believe people who call me mafia than people who call me mafia but change mind because i am vig, because first looks sort of genuine.

fua was towny for me.

You not trying at all and lolcatting all game is scum!indicative but it really doesn’t change the fact that you came from a town slot. I’m not sure why this isn’t looking genuine for you.

Also, please don’t shoot me tonight, lol.

Fua was not townie for you until they claimed. That is a major difference here - you can't claim you TR'd someone only after they claimed a major role when you were reading them as mafia beforehand. Fua was literally one of your main mafia suspects.

[MalcolmTucker]

Another thing that I don’t like about Malcolm’s posting is a lot of it is based on objectiveness. He frequently gets salty about how other people who are doing “similar or worse” things are not getting as much pressure as others (namely himself). I can point to examples after work if needed.

The issue I gave with this mindset is that I feel like he is expecting people to play objectively good townplay and people who don’t match up to this standard are scum. I mean it’s not impossible that it could be a playstyle difference but his mindset still feels like he’s scum caught for the “wrong reasons”.

Why is trying to play objectively a bad way to approach the game? I'd rather that than just aimlessly going for whatever player catches your eye. Obviously there's always going to be an element of subjectivity to reads but I still expect people to then find a way to back up those reads.

[MalcolmTucker]

Why Enchant is so scummy this game is beyond me. Feels like he's just lolcatting scum? But I still kind of refuse to elim there like in the next few game days because fua was so towny, but I would like Enchant to play and help town more I guess

Here's kind of where I'm at:

Math
Galron Nero enchant - TRs
Baltar cape deasvail - TLs
tenebro eyes Titus April - north of null
Scorpious frog fire std - null I guess?
Malcolm - South of null

Claims is a trash. I more actually believe people who call me mafia than people who call me mafia but change mind because i am vig, because first looks sort of genuine.

fua was towny for me.

You not trying at all and lolcatting all game is scum!indicative but it really doesn’t change the fact that you came from a town slot. I’m not sure why this isn’t looking genuine for you.

Also, please don’t shoot me tonight, lol.

Fua was not townie for you until they claimed. That is a major difference here - you can't claim you TR'd someone only after they claimed a major role when you were reading them as mafia beforehand. Fua was literally one of your main mafia suspects.

Bringing this over to new page since it's an important detail. Again Yeet did not TR Fua until Fua claimed. Indeed Yeet was one of the posters who essentially drew out that claim with their suspicions piled onto Fua. I don't think their suspicion was wrong or particularly bad for what it's worth, because Fua did not look great, but they did not TR them early on. In fact, if anything it's weirder Yeet accepted Fua's claim at face value when others doubted it but now they appear to be backpedalling on this. Initial reaction could have been surprised mafia not wanting to rile up a PR.

[MalcolmTucker]

Malcolm who are you going to vote? Your unvote of me without a push at this point doesn’t do anything for the gamestate.

I also think Enchant and Galron need to vote a real wagon. We are cutting it close.

I'm swaying, happy to vote out VP if consensus is that's the best move but wary we don't get much from it if they come back town. Obviously would rather not be eliminated myself but at least my elimination would give back decent info when I come out as a town - who pushed and who didn't etc. I reckon there's definitely one/two mafia in the bunch currently voting me.

[MalcolmTucker]

Malcolm if we are both town who is scum?

I'm not sure you are town. Little for me to indicate that. Why you're my main suspect.

VP/tenebros have been among my higher suspects but I'm still not 100% on either, I'd go a VP bandwagon but if he's town wary we don't learn much.

April has not looked good from a town POV since replacing in. Ari didn't beforehand but their approach seemed incredibly counterproductive to how mafia would play the game, but April's approach since then has made me re-evaluate that slot. One that needs close attention tomorrow.

Quite possibly one in a newer place like Galron who hasn't done much so far. Scorpious another decent shout but I fear it wouldn't give us much info this turn.

[MalcolmTucker]

Do you really think scum!April comes in and decides to push you, with only one person (me) at the time expressing real paranoia on you, and drives you as a counterwagon because he thinks he can get 9 votes on you to miselim you? That’s the kind of agenda I would have to accept in a scum!April world and it is a bit tough for me, so you can explain that maybe that will help your case? If April and VP are both town I just have a hard time seeing you as town in that regard too.

Why not? April was a new player and coming in to push me was a read that would set them apart from other players in terms of read. I wasn't closely associated with any particular wagon or agenda and it didn't look like they were deflecting as such.

Not that their reads have been perfect, but Math heavily suspects April. If they die in the night turn due to being mason and I get eliminated in the vote, you'll have two confirmed town into tomorrow's turn both arguing for April to be eliminated. That should probably be taken into account.

[MalcolmTucker]

I mean it is ass that Malcolm isn't voting...

My first thought was that Vp was scum and Malcolm was a CW that scum Yeet and Eyes hopped on. Maybe he's scum, maybe he's not, IDK.

Cape, Titus, STD, Enchant, Galron should be moving their votes to one of those 2 wagons.

I don't tend to vote all that extensively except when absolutely needed. I've been torn between accepting VP wagon is our most viable option besides me or accepting I might go and that my town elimination will give useful info for the next turn, or trying to push another wagon like Yeet, but I don't think anyone is up for that. Will likely just stick my vote on VP later on if no alternative comes up, I'm happy enough for them to go as possible mafia, wary of what we actually get if they come back town.

[MalcolmTucker]

Malcolm not voting does seem to be a playstyle thing so I wouldn’t dock him townpoints for it. I do think he should just VP though, I’m really not sure what he’s swaying on, it seems like of the 3 wagons VP is clearly his top choice.

I don't think Scorpious is particularly a much worse choice as such but it'd be an incredibly, incredibly lazy wagon at this stage we don't learn much from. I'd say VP is therefore the better wagon, but if VP is town I am probably the better wagon for interesting info to be gained from my elimination.

I still don't fundamentally see why nobody else can be pushed though considering there is still a day left and this has been a high activity game. The sudden shift to tentativeness has fundamentally been one of the most interesting things so far for me and should be taken into account in the next turn.

[MalcolmTucker]

Wait what does the “wary we don’t get much” from VP’s elim mean, I don’t get it

If a townie gets eliminated it's useful to see who was on the wagon and when, and how that might allow us to find mafia in future turns.

Problem is though the wagon for VP has been relatively consistent without being definitive in a way that has probably allowed some mafia to hide behind it if VP does end up coming out as town.

If I'm voted out it's fairly clear who comes out looking bad - you, April and Eyes for example. That doesn't mean you're definitely mafia but it's useful all the same and can then help the town how to decide to approach the game going forward.

My concern is we don't learn much if VP is voted out and turns out to be town in the end. The wagon, when it was started, seemed largely fair if it wasn't conclusive. Who are your main suspects who weren't under that much pressure before if VP turns out to be town? I'm not too sure.

[MalcolmTucker]

I think people being pretty polarized on VPB would make it a decently high info yeet

Well the person still has to claim and we have to have enough time to switch to someone else and maybe let them claim, etc

And this is a large game which is harder to coordinate a majority vote

And realistically no one is going to come with some bombshell case on someone other than scorpious, Malcolm, or VPB

If you want to, be my guest I guess

Possibly yeah, maybe I'm not seeing it from my POV but then I appreciate others will have different views of VP and will have had a different dynamic playing with them.

Either way I can confirm I won't be claiming, I'm town so no major gambit to follow from me.

[MalcolmTucker]

ok yea i wasn't really that convinced of that being a slip, but you're right that VP's interpretation there is extremely generous to galron

This is what scum pocketing Math looks like btw. He would be the number one person I'd try to pocket if I was scum and I would definitely keep him alive for awhile.

I'm interested in Fire, their play had largely felt more townie than anyone else's so far but their reads on me/you as potential teammates and switching their vote to me at the same time all felt very suspect and incoherent. Might take a dig through their ISO later.

[MalcolmTucker]

Malcolm is like starting to make me doubt my SR here, honestly

Funnily enough I'm feeling the same with you a little tiny bit in the last page. My overriding theory at the moment is increasingly that mafia are either content with the state of the game or have expected/feared a VP elimination if VP is one of them and don't want to rock the boat too much. A fundamental thing to be looking for right now is players who are fine with where the game is at, players who aren't fine with that, and why this is the case. VP's post about Fire above for example makes a solid point - if someone is either contributing less or contributing in a different way, we should be thinking as to why this is the case. Personally I like that, for as much as you've suspected me, you're at least thinking about your reads and asking for my views when you could just aggressively push the slot.

[MalcolmTucker]

The big scum giveaway for fire is that he hasn't had any original ideas since like D1. He is clearly very smart, and smart people take actions outside the safety of what's popular. I could write a whole case about that, but I doubt that is worth my time at this point because the wagon isn't going to flip. When I'm dead, look at that very closely.

I need to have a proper look at their ISO later, I think Fire's definitely a clever player so very much not someone I'd want dead if town, but their reads during the initial heat on me felt very off in a way that felt out of character considering their approach to the game up until then.

[MalcolmTucker]

I want to see the wagons tighten up.

VOTE: Malcom

I think this is fairly weak at this stage if you don't have any reasoning beyond this. Again we're in an odd situation now where a solid portion of my wagon doesn't necessarily think I'm actually mafia or isn't particularly sold on it which is very interesting.

[MalcolmTucker]

After I'm dead, if I was scumhunting in the hood, I'd kill Galron first, then Nero, in that order btw.

Also, y'all need to sideline Nero in either case. He's tanking the game for town regardless of alignment and too many people, possibly scum, are encouraging that.

As someone who's long thought you were probably mafia, the fact you're not particularly pushing me all that hard right now when it'd be the most beneficial thing for you to do is making me have second thoughts a bit. But could be clever play - make people view you as townie by not targeting someone you haven't suspected all that much.

If it was turn one Galron would be a good candidate right now. Their play is not giving out good vibes so far in the slightest.