Open 870 | White Flag Mountainous | Postgame

[Klick]

I was planning on coming home from work today and starting to push for Shirou lmao

[Klick]

yea furtive was mvp. also turned around a slot that was marked for death multiple times

imagine if we collectively hadn't talked things out and just let shirou powerlim through me and furtive at the start of day here like he was demanding. do we win in that world? probably not!

I think Shirou deserves a ton of credit for his D1 reads
He basically just had all three of us at the bottom
It's why I ultimately really didn't want to kill him N1. If he died with those reads as his legacy we were screwed. I needed to change his mind

[Datisi]

gg town.

no redacts in the pt from me. sorry for playing like shit.

thanks for modding, peta.

[Klick]

Playing as scum is just ultimately waaaay less fun than playing as town at this point in my life

[Klick]

GG all, town played too good

<3 klick and tgp, we win next time

Thanks peta for modding

<3

[giuseppina]

thankyou for moderating

[Cat Scratch Fever]

gg all & thank you petapan!

Klick breaking my heart with the scum PM smh

[Klick]

Why can't we both just rand town every time

[Toto]

I was planning on coming home from work today and starting to push for Shirou lmao

That would have been fun to witness. But also have a feeling it would have backfired catastrophically for you.

[Shirou]

I think this game & Dance game worsened my existential sadness by a lot...

I feel like in both I tried to read too much the associatives/anti-associatives and understand what was the entire "scum plan" rather than just look/judge slots individually. It pains me so hard that I had much better reads

before

a scum flip in both games, @TGP fake associative wifom completely worked on regards to fire to me, and just assuming scum never defends their partner made me

once again

incorrectly clear a slot I didn't like that much previously...

[

Norwe

] - town read
[

CSF, Pina

] - town lean
[

StD, Fire

] - nulltown
[

Toto

,

Gimli

,

Aubrey

] - null
[---] - nullscum
[

Klick, TGP

] - scum lean
[---] - scum read

Out of the above null pool I also disliked Gimli/Aubrey the most:

idk man I feel like

Gimli

can't stop scum posting

I look at

TGP

and feel like "hm wow this is so scummy, it's prob scum right?", I look at

Klick

's posts and think "oh, this is more of a ~deep~ wolf, scummy but hides it well...maybe red yeah?"

w/

Gimli

the unique thing that goes through my head is

"scumposting, scumposting and hm, more scumposting"

idk maybe [

TGP/Klick/Gimli

] is a better guaranteed scum pool than [

TGP/Klick

/

Aubrey

]?

I just want to register that just like how Panic Room made me give up on meta because I'm

horrible

at it most of the time, I think this game plus dance game is gonna make me run away from associative/anti-associative tells like "scum almost always bus", "scum almost never defends partners openly", "scum probably does this in this situation with a partner" and etc. I'm clearly

horrible

at it apparently as well.

I increasingly am not even sure I've the motivation to play mafia anymore though, I'm just devastated and ashamed. Going from having the entire scum team in the lim pool on the basis of individual reads and looking like a clown by the end tunneling two townies because I'm once again trying to pull out of my ass the modus operandis of the scum team...I'm speechless. I lost quite a bit of sleep trying to solve this game and it just ends like a cruel joke once again I guess.

[Shirou]

This is my readlist so far with the slots in the "null" range perhaps not being truly null but I want to see how they'll act after my "cases" to decide their placement.

Toto/Gimli/Aubrey weren't true null for me at that point but I wanted to see how they would react to my klick push I guess

that's it for me I guess, thanks for modding @petapan

[unwnd]

I didn't play this game but your languish resonates with me Shirou. Overthinking has been the death of me in recent games and it's worse looking back when you had proper leads, just to dump them later on.

However, I think you shouldn't be hard on yourself. Everyone is guesstimating and being 'right' stacks up like personal achievement because I promise you nobody is gonna leave this game thinking 'man Shirou really just blew it with his reads!' Lot of people are self-absorbed and hardly paying attention to what you do. In that regard, the best contribution is one that you feel like making and is within reason.

Another observation: I think you give yourself too much workload. You post frequently while trying to process information in real-time. I don't think you give yourself enough of a reprieve to just let your thoughts settle and not just interact with the thread. Taking time away can be beneficial for both yourself and others.

[furtiveglance]

Shirou, your reads were generally really good and you were obvtown enough for me to recognise it despite you wanting me dead. You were definitely a big reason why town won

[giuseppina]

I

i quite enjoyed playing with you for what it's worth - i just disagreed with your approach at times and sometimes strongly enough for me to feel it was possibly coming from mafia (patience is town's friend) - and i just wanted to say that my replacement had nothing to do with you (or furtiveglance who also speculated about my replacement in a pretty ??? way - i had asked petapan to replace me before furtiveglance presented his scumread of me or whatever), it's just i had to stay up until 6ish in the morning my time to post after i finished with my other obligations the night before and i checked the game while i was eating on break and there were a lot of pages and it was looking like i would have to again and the rest of my week going forward looked very similar and it is unreasonable for me to continue to ask everyone to wait for me/the weekend

as i told petapan i probably should not have signed up as i knew it was likely i would become busy around this time i just really love playing

sorry again and hopefully i will see y'all in a few months

[Shirou]

Overthinking has been the death of me in recent games and it's worse looking back when you had proper leads, just to dump them later on.

It's technically overthinking yes you're correct but I didn't consider it quite "overthinking" because there were back then, what I believed "solid reasons" to change my mind. It wasn't just me losing faith on it randomly, I cleared Klick because he came openly defending TGP when TGP was about go down, and it didn't work very much and made people suspecting him more, so I thought that probably didn't come from partners and in my 5 years here so far I'm not sure I had ever seen someone defend their partner so openly like that as they are near death. If it was for the WIFOM it clearly worked on me.

I thought at least one scum had also positioned themselves well by bussing given how much pressure TGP was getting since D1 (given how common bussing the most suspected partner is usually?), so it made me later on focus in [Fire, Furtive] and leave [Toto, Gimli] to "later" because they hadn't exactly bussed too hard/positioned themselves too well for the flip, not to mention that TGP plan seemed to be cooking a mislim on me as Klick apparently also seems to have confessed, so I thought one other scum had to be trying to associate me + TGP from the start which made me again look at Fire/Furtive and think it was a cohesive scum team plan.

It made...so much logical sense to me. But it seems to be a failure as a method to scum hunt to think there's this overarching logic about the scumteam play I suppose...

About your other points like posting too much and caring about being "right"...it's probably good advice I'm just not sure I could realistically follow it. I'm lazy and don't even try on most things but in the few things I try I'm self-pressured to do the best I can at

any

and

all

expenses for self-satisfaction first before anything else. Maybe I should just focus on something else to do at my spare time or something, I don't know.

Either way thanks for the feedback @unwnd. I appreciate it.

[fireisredsir]

shirou, nobody is going to have perfect reads, that's impossible. your reads overall were still good. i think the frustrating part of your playstyle is when you have such a need for control over the game that you insist that everyone follow you and that you get what you want, and you block things out that could change your mind

personally it has the opposite effect on me. im a lot more interested in listening to your reads and stuff when you aren't like that, bc i know from dance game that when you're doing that you aren't seeing things clearly. once you ultimatumed on maria i just kinda stopped giving any weight to the things you were saying

i think the same thing happened here too. i think if you were able to turn that down just a little bit then it would make the games a lot more fun for everyone, and also probably would be more successful. ive enjoyed the times when you aren't like that and i respect your play and abilities outside of that aspect

[Aristeia]

Shirou I think you played really well and I don't think you should feel ashamed of being wrong, it's just human to be wrong and this is just a silly game.

I hope you feel better soon.

[Shirou]

Shirou, your reads were generally really good and you were obvtown enough for me to recognise it despite you wanting me dead. You were definitely a big reason why town won

I like to boast a bit when success is achieved but also think there's a need to self-criticize when things go wrong. I think even if I was mostly correct on D1/D2, the most important part in the end is the final result and I was definitely being an obstacle to town wincon by the last day. I appreciate the kindness though.

I

i quite enjoyed playing with you for what it's worth - i just disagreed with your approach at times and sometimes strongly enough for me to feel it was possibly coming from mafia (patience is town's friend) - and i just wanted to say that my replacement had nothing to do with you (or furtiveglance who also speculated about my replacement in a pretty ??? way - i had asked petapan to replace me before furtiveglance presented his scumread of me or whatever), it's just i had to stay up until 6ish in the morning my time to post after i finished with my other obligations the night before and i checked the game while i was eating on break and there were a lot of pages and it was looking like i would have to again and the rest of my week going forward looked very similar and it is unreasonable for me to continue to ask everyone to wait for me/the weekend

as i told petapan i probably should not have signed up as i knew it was likely i would become busy around this time i just really love playing

sorry again and hopefully i will see y'all in a few months

I see, it's good to know I wasn't the reason for the replace out at least. I'm still not sure my natural impatience makes for the right gamestate for you to feel comfortable playing but I hope to see you again one day as well pina.

[unwnd]

Overthinking has been the death of me in recent games and it's worse looking back when you had proper leads, just to dump them later on.

It's technically overthinking yes you're correct but I didn't consider it quite "overthinking" because there were back then, what I believed "solid reasons" to change my mind. It wasn't just me losing faith on it randomly, I cleared Klick because he came openly defending TGP when TGP was about go down, and it didn't work very much and made people suspecting him more, so I thought that probably didn't come from partners and in my 5 years here so far I'm not sure I had ever seen someone defend their partner so openly like that as they are near death. If it was for the WIFOM it clearly worked on me.

I thought at least one scum had also positioned themselves well by bussing given how much pressure TGP was getting since D1 (given how common bussing the most suspected partner is usually?), so it made me later on focus in [Fire, Furtive] and leave [Toto, Gimli] to "later" because they hadn't exactly bussed too hard/positioned themselves too well for the flip, not to mention that TGP plan seemed to be cooking a mislim on me as Klick apparently also seems to have confessed, so I thought one other scum had to be trying to associate me + TGP from the start which made me again look at Fire/Furtive and think it was a cohesive scum team plan.

It made...so much logical sense to me. But it seems to be a failure as a method to scum hunt to think there's this overarching logic about the scumteam play I suppose...

About your other points like posting too much and caring about being "right"...it's probably good advice I'm just not sure I could realistically follow it. I'm lazy and don't even try on most things but in the few things I try I'm self-pressured to do the best I can at

any

and

all

expenses for self-satisfaction first before anything else. Maybe I should just focus on something else to do at my spare time or something, I don't know.

Either way thanks for the feedback @unwnd. I appreciate it.

Players who lack proficiency wouldn't be working with so many angles in the first place. The fact you have layered ideas gives you an advantage as there may arise a situation where your proficiency will

allow

others to see something that they might have missed. I also believe that you are quite good at explaining your logic with is an absolute plus. You weren't on the mark this time and that's OK. I really suggest a Notes PT or just textdumping somewhere else so you have a place to stare at your posts before pressing 'Submit.' It really helps!

[Shirou]

shirou, nobody is going to have perfect reads, that's impossible.

I know it's mathematically impossible to always have general tells that works every game rather than very specific player tells (basically "meta") that have a higher chance of doing the job right (but still, sometimes, failing anyway), however the fact that forum mafia is such a hard game to "always" be right in is probably part of the reason it makes me want to attempt being right on it anyway. If it's not a borderline impossible mission/goal it doesn't get me as fired up...

I think this along with the rest of your point on me is the

reasonable

and

right

take on all this. The impression I've of you so far is of a very down-to-earth collected person that is the voice of reason in many situations. Unfortunately though...I'm just not sure I'm reasonable. Maybe Firebringer was right about me being a bit crazy after all huh.

Thanks for the feedback though.

Shirou

I think you played really well

and I don't think you should feel ashamed of being wrong, it's just human to be wrong and this is just a silly game.

I hope you feel better soon.

Hm, I kinda disagree on that part but again thanks Ari. I may have been a bit too dramatic with "devastated", I'm quite ok, just disappointed and reflecting. It's human to be wrong I just have been a bit too wrong three times in a how and it's starting to bother me.

[unwnd]

Bud you don't know how many times I've eaten crow and will continue to do so

These are just experiences to take from and nobody is gonna devalue you for mistakes

[Shirou]

Players who lack proficiency wouldn't be working with so many angles in the first place. The fact you have layered ideas gives you an advantage as there may arise a situation where your proficiency will

allow

others to see something that they might have missed. I also believe that you are quite good at explaining your logic with is an absolute plus. You weren't on the mark this time and that's OK. I really suggest a Notes PT or just textdumping somewhere else so you have a place to stare at your posts before pressing 'Submit.' It really helps!

Thanks again unwnd, and I did have a Notes PT here btw, I may just need to use it more rather than scramble my thoughts through the thread at times. There's a lot of posts I end up forgetting the context for and stuff that I say in the thread that it's not very optimal since it's a bit of a passing thought (like my Norwee random suspicions since I felt like at certain moments the NKs made more sense if I was pocketed by scum).

Dunno if I'll release it, there's some funny moment like me admitting in capslock that I was quite scared of being wrong on fire but deciding to tunnel him anyway, and saying along the lines of "this game may make more sense if fire is town but it doesn't make a lot of sense so far so I'm just gonna stick with it" while I was thinking about the NKs, but in general yeah, I didn't use it enough imo. Maybe it's a better idea to spam more there rather than main thread. Dunno if I can resist my urges though.

[Klick]

Overthinking has been the death of me in recent games and it's worse looking back when you had proper leads, just to dump them later on.

It's technically overthinking yes you're correct but I didn't consider it quite "overthinking" because there were back then, what I believed "solid reasons" to change my mind. It wasn't just me losing faith on it randomly, I cleared Klick because he came openly defending TGP when TGP was about go down, and it didn't work very much and made people suspecting him more, so I thought that probably didn't come from partners and in my 5 years here so far I'm not sure I had ever seen someone defend their partner so openly like that as they are near death. If it was for the WIFOM it clearly worked on me.

I will accept the compliment - that was essentially the idea Now I just need to take that sort of play and attach it to a more refined scum game overall lol.

It made...so much logical sense to me. But it seems to be a failure as a method to scum hunt to think there's this overarching logic about the scumteam play I suppose...

That is the main scumhunting lesson I've personally taken away from this game. We weren't particularly coordinated all things considered, we largely operated independently and planned in generalities. I'm not sure if that was a weakness on our part or just another way of playing. But it showed me that sometimes scum aren't going to have a totally unified approach to their game plan.

[Save The Dragons]

I can tell you though that I don't think I would actively choose to remove STD from this game

<3

BUT YOU DID IT ANYWAY

[NorwegianboyEE]

Having a independent playing style as scum in White flag seems a bit counterintuitive…