Election! | GAME OVER

[GuiltyLion]

defund the police

[GuiltyLion]

defund the police

this seems like something the mafia would be interested in doing

ah but see the police are the mafia

was there something more to you deciding to campaign for sheriff, or was it pure meme to run against Datisi?

I find it odd that that role is relatively more useless to town and yet the most popular

[GuiltyLion]

declare mayor

[GuiltyLion]

@Enchat I said "relatively" more useless

as we just saw in HoD scum sheriff was not a huge problem and was ultimately figured out when they were forced into giving questionable results and eliminated for information.

I don't think a cop shot is that valuable, I think securing a town treasurer and probably mayor/council member is more important than town sheriff. Datisi I'm also curious to hear why that was your choice especially given HoD

[GuiltyLion]

well I'm assuming scum will have abilities to fuck with these roles if granted the power, otherwise the mechanics are pretty boring for scum side

a scum treasurer might be able to waste all the funds in a way that affects future nights

the fact that we don't know what mayor/council member abilities are make them more important for town to get on D1, not less

[GuiltyLion]

I don't think a cop shot is that valuable, I think securing a town treasurer and probably mayor/council member is more important than town sheriff. Datisi I'm also curious to hear why that was your choice especially given HoD

i feel like your perception of that game is coloured based on the fact you ultimately ended up winning, and you don't notice just how much damage a scum cop did to that game. robbed you out of 2 results (which are essentially 2 straight flips) (or was it 3? i don't remember), blocked you from yeeting scum, almost won the game alone if dannflor hadn't lurked out.

even if such mechanics aren't in play here, a cop in town hands is essentially an extra free flip every cycle (unless they get killed ig). i was honest at the start of HoD when i said that i think it's a massive loss for town if the cop falls into scum hands.

I think it's a matter of perspective, cause my point is that you did all that damage and yet town still was able to bloc together and win, it wasn't enough to carry your team. Presumably any of these roles in scum hands is going to be some degree of bad, but I think it's easier to contain the "bad" with a scum sheriff over the other roles I named. Especially since we have new elections the next day.

Like what's the best case for a town sheriff, a guilty that we trust and flip, right? Otherwise even a clear isn't going to be strictly confirmed info until the sheriff's alignment is resolved. It just doesn't strike me as my number one priority. Don't you think your team in HoD would have done better if you were King and not Cop?

[GuiltyLion]

my boy guiltylion doing me DIRTY

It's truly nothing personal I just feel we will all benefit and learn more over a hard fought battle for mayor

[GuiltyLion]

Actually GL what is your angle here? I mean, let's say treasurer is the most powerful role, does that mean we should all try and become treasurer or something and it's scummy to not try and be the treasurer? We want town on all of these roles I think.

except maybe the board of elections thing

I'm not saying it's inherently scummy to not immediately declare for the most important roles, like obviously you 3 are not all scum

more that I want to understand why multiple people immediately jumped on one I think is less important

Board of elections seems like it will become more important as the number of players shrinks, it's at least a function to check whether someone's actions are aligned with their projected reads

[GuiltyLion]

got any pings yet?

Ausukas trying just a lil too hard for my tastes with the board jokes

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more that I want to understand why multiple people immediately jumped on one I think is less important

I mean to me it's just like, why? Even if you don't agree, are you that skeptical that people would believe a cop is a powerful role?

I don't think I'm "skeptical" so much as - it's not what I would do, therefore I'd like to try to understand better why y'all did it

I don't really like this question although I'm struggling to articulate why - it feels like you're maybe trying to dig deeper into my question than what's necessary? It's early game, I wanna know why you and Datisi picked the role you picked bc I don't think it's the most important one. Referring to that as an "angle", and asking me "why" I did that, I'm having trouble empathizing with what you're seeking to understand.

@pooky - I think if we're both town it's good that we're both running for mayor, no? Are you saying you'd rather I be in a different position?

[GuiltyLion]

i find guiltylion's current approach to ausuka... concerning?

98 is meh because i don't think ausuka was trying too hard w jokes, because she mentioned board of elections twice and in only one of those posts would i even consider that to be a "joke" (92) and i have had many more joke-y posts than ausuka has so i'm not sure what it is scummy about her jokes but not about my jokes.

it's a vibe, dude. I don't know which of your posts are jokes that you think I "should" be scumreading if I'm being Consistent or whatever. I just know that the way Ausuka brought up the board of elections position again, a second time, struck me as off, felt like someone trying to be funny in the specific way that is meant to be townread. Probably because no one else really is talking about the board position or engaging with Ausuka about it, so joking about it again gave me a ping.

114 gives me the vibe of trying to look smart in the early game but just not really succeeding. i also found it really weird to be asking so much about why someone would run for cop (not necessarily scummy in itself because the explanation for that is plausible), and i think there's obvious value in asking why someone is stuck on something seemingly unimportant or unproductive. so i do empathize with what she's asking.

?? These were my questions asking about the cop thing:

was there something more to you deciding to campaign for sheriff, or was it pure meme to run against Datisi?

I find it odd that that role is relatively more useless to town and yet the most popular

Datisi I'm also curious to hear why that was your choice especially given HoD

everything else I've said on this subject has been simply in reply to the questions that you or Ausuka were asking me about it. I take issue with you phrasing that as "asking so much", I asked one question twice to each of you, got responses, that's all I needed. Everything else I've said was for your benefit because y'all kept asking me to explain what I meant by what I said. I Do Not Like that you're now trying to suggest that it's

me

pushing that conversation in that direction, and not Ausuka.

[GuiltyLion]

like specifically Datisi why did you phrase that as me being "stuck" on this cop point?? where do you think I was "stuck" on anything?

[GuiltyLion]

so something being reasonable means it's not scummy?

I don't think it was "unreasonable" for Ausuka to ask me about my thought process, but I do find it concerning that I can't really identify with how that question would help her sort me or provide her with any more insight beyond the posts and explanations I had already given

[GuiltyLion]

two questions is two too many about it imho

also frankly this is silly lol

the phase is literally centered around us declaring our candidacies for different positions. you think asking people why they chose to declare for a particular position is unproductive or hard to understand?

[GuiltyLion]

Datisi: *declares for cop*
Datisi: nobody is allowed to ask me why I did this

[GuiltyLion]

Like, I think if you're coming into the game with the opinion that cop is not an useful role, it is likely that you as an experienced player would be aware that most people do not share this view.

Also, I want to know if you thought it was important to sorting alignments

again, it's not that cop is not useful in a vacuum

it's that treasurer/mayor/councilmember seem like more important roles for town to prioritize town winning, especially before we even know what the JOAT abilities are.

obviously cop has value. however, I do not think I would personally think it is the role that I would want, or the one that is MOST valuable.

alright, we all clear? moving on -

why do you think asking people why they chose the role they chose would possibly

not

be useful in sorting alignments? Datisi said he thinks it's critically important for it not to be held by scum. That's useful for understanding his thought processes! That means I should expect that every day going forward, Datisi is going to be angling to put one of his most confident townreads into Sheriff, it means that I should expect to see him not satisfied with voting a null/unreadable player into that position. It also means I should expect to see him running for Sheriff every day, if he really believes this is the most valuable position for him to occupy. any deviations from that pattern of behavior might indicate agenda or something alignment-indicative going on!

You said you basically just wanted to be cop and it was fun to be rivals with Datisi. That's a different mindset that's less based in mechanics or playing optimally. And maybe later if I see you Tryhard Grinding on mechanics with other players and their decisions, I might wonder why that wasn't the attitude you took on initially in this game.

I'm not gonna pretend this is giving me perfect 100% actionable information to use to conclusively sort either of you, but it's inherently valuable and interesting stuff, and it feels kinda wild to me that both you and Datisi seem to be suggesting it's somehow hard to understand why I might be interested in it.

[GuiltyLion]

like specifically Datisi why did you phrase that as me being "stuck" on this cop point?? where do you think I was "stuck" on anything?

i know this is gonna be annoying to explain so i sighed with a bit too much force and my nose started bleeding again LMAO sorry i'm back

i phrased it as such because it seemed to me that ausuka is operating from that point of view. like, the way i see it is that you're asking about why we're trying to get cop when to her (and i think most other players) the answer is a very simple "cop good role". so the fact that you are not seeing it that way can potentially be seen as "stuck" on it, thus why i think her question is valid

if the answer is truly nothing beyond "cop good role", that's worth hearing straight from the source instead of me assuming it

like I guess maybe the disconnect here is really just my mindset being different from yours, cause "cop good" is like... not the wavelength I'm on this game. feels very surface level

[GuiltyLion]

that's the second time you've referred to it as my "approach" to Ausuka, I'm reflexively disliking that term cause I don't feel I've had any real planned "approach" at all and have mainly been reacting to what you and Ausuka have been asking or posting

you asked me if I had any pings, so I named it. I've also had some direct back and forth with Ausuka in response to her questions after my initial question to her, but other than that I feel I'm very much still in the directionless bouncing off each other phase of the game, I don't have any firm reads or goals, yet it feels like you're interpreting my behavior as proactive instead of reactive. why are we not seeing things the same way on that front?

[GuiltyLion]

yet it feels like you're interpreting my behavior as proactive instead of reactive

because that's how it feels to me? ausuka asks a question that seems to come from a town pov, your response is to try to suspect her over it by framing her question as unreasonable.

hmmmm ok I don't exactly agree that I was framing it as an unreasonable question rather than one that I didn't understand the purpose of BUT I think I see your interpretation of events now and this makes sense to me, thanks

GL any particular reason you decided to campaign against/with pooky instead of meowth?

there were a few things that made me choose mayor although none of these were super thought out, don't take this as me suggesting I deliberated much about it:
- I know pooky and have played with him (whereas I don't know meowth)
- mayor sounds more important than council member
- I kinda gut townread pooky calling out Datisi in 9 so taking another spot in the mayor race felt like it would be useful

[GuiltyLion]

I'm underwhelmed by Bingle posts and takes

Why am I "very scummy"?

[GuiltyLion]

UNOwen is town for 222 tho

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SleepyKrew do you have reads on Pooky and me besides annoying

Bingle your reasons for me scum are terrible but I'm about to do V Day stuff so I'll give you a proper response later. But I want you to know I've seen what you said and I have judged you

[GuiltyLion]

I don't remember a missed opportunity to opine about scummy slots being thrown into the sherif role for ritual sacrifice. Could you point out where that might have come into play in these mech arguments, and the scummy point where GL neglects to mention this?

@Bingle - did you miss this, were you going to address it? It gets at the fundamental issue I had with your post, namely that your argument for me being scum here consists of constructing an idea of what Town!GL Would Or Should Be Doing, and then saying I'm scummy because I'm not doing that. you make a ton of assumptions with your point
- we can control who we elect to be cop
- scum are likely to fear kill the cop
- therefore, the best use of the cop role is to put someone scummy in there
and biggest of all,
- town!GL would think all of this is true,

and agree with it and behave accordingly

then saying you think I'm scummy cause that didn't happen.

this is not generally how to find mafia, with these types of counterfactuals ("town [x] should do this, they didn't, so they're mafia"), especially when you're not laying out what a hypothetical scum benefit or agenda is to my actions is either. Rather this is how you sell someone as scum, and it feels disingenuous as hell.

Your other points are bad too. I'm approaching mech from "how scum benefits", sure, because I want to minimize the damage scum can do. It's also silly to hand wave that away as NOT thinking about how town benefits - is the implication here that a more pro-town approach to mechanics is going "ooh cop shiny!", or not even questioning players who did that? why?

also noteworthy that you choose to believe I am "playing obtuse" about cop power rather than just disagreeing with you, or hell, even just

being wrong

. Nice way to insert a nefarious motive where none exists.

[GuiltyLion]

UNOwen is town for 222 tho

why

feeling like cakez is townie

i am rapidly losing interest in this phase when i cannot kill anyone yet

@sleepykrew, which people in this game are you familiar with mafia-wise

cause that's specifically the exact type of "lazy townread on a capable player who [is probably actually town but] not at all out of scumrange" read that scum tend to make, and I like that UNOwen picked up on it and called it out.

[GuiltyLion]

also I think Cakez is town as well

more later

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Actually here's another question for you Bingle

Let's grant you that all of your assumptions are true, that mechanically the optimal use of cop is to put a scummy player in there to force scum's hand at night killing a player that otherwise would be a potential miselim. And let's even grant that most town players would understand and agree with this.

Why then is your focus on me, who questioned the players who leapt at the opportunity to try to be cop, instead of the actual players themselves? Do you think Datisi or Ausuka are traditionally scummy, limbaity players? Are you not frustrated that they've essentially forced your hand at voting Enchant for sheriff? Is that not a pro-scum agenda under your established belief system?

[GuiltyLion]

sorry y'all I've been truly swamped at work

I will catch up and play a bit tonight, give me 3-5 hours or so

I have not read anything but Bingle's post on this page but if Pooky is suggesting the team is Datisi/Ausuka/me that's pretty lol

Ausuka is defo scum tho - that is my singular read I will give to avoid prodge

more later for real this time

[GuiltyLion]

let's say that's the team and our plan was to hardcore distance between me and whoever wins cop

how does that cop then justify not checking me

what's the end goal to that script

[GuiltyLion]

like I get general paranoia around me having a track record of bussing teammates

but I don't think bussing D1 in this set up makes a lot of mech sense

[GuiltyLion]

eh ok that's probably not a useful question

I'm back skimming let's talk about this

i think we should have consensus on who should win each role - if our votes are divided it makes it too easy for scum to just do hidden shenanigans

I've been operating under the assumption that PRs are going to have to out themselves the next day so we can learn results and shit, and because there's no cost to it since we have new elections

so if scum do "hidden shenanigans" and get one of their own elected, why does that really matter? we'll find out who the cop, trash collector, mayor, etc is the next day. you also can't really hide this info because of the PT that gets created, some townie will definitely know

so I don't see what making votes public really serves, like if some seemingly consensus townread loses an election that feels more informative than having everyone post their votes?

idk I'm not necessarily against trying to direct the elections but I also don't really understand what "hidden shenanigans" you're afraid of here

also can't those "shenanigans" happen regardless of if we make our votes public? like nothing's stopping me from saying I'll vote one way and then voting another - the only advantage gained is that the board of elections person could verify if somebody lied in main thread

[GuiltyLion]

idk Bingle you're probably right, I don't have a plan this game and I simply resent being accused of being scum with Ausuka cause I'm town

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Pooky I'm not asking why should we try to get town to get the PRs

I'm asking how does making everyone state their votes publicly really achieve that

I doubt we're going to get consensus on every role, what do you propose we do if the majority of the PL disagrees with you on who should win a particular election

[GuiltyLion]

ok but let's say we each out our initial votes and the vote for mayor or cop or whatever is split 7/5/3

you're saying the other 8 votes should switch to the current leader with 7? that already means the majority is not voting for their preferred candidate

and how do we know
a) the leading candidate is town
b) scum didn't already throw the weight of their 4 votes behind that leading candidate

[GuiltyLion]

wait so Bingle just to make sure I understand, you are pro outing votes, but anti switching to a consensus candidate?

doesn't that give scum the most info

I feel we should either go with Pooky's plan or just not discuss who we're voting for and then do a retrospective afterwards, I'm not sure I see the value in having everyone give their ballots w/out coordinating

prior

to the election

[GuiltyLion]

If we're not going to outing votes in public, why even talk about who we're going to vote for then? I mean we keep track of votes in a regular game for reasons, one of them is to see who votes for who, where alliances/loyalties might lie.

Also isn't it a thing if someone says they're going to vote for or did vote for someone and then it turns out they didn't?

I think that stuff is important.

also I get skeevy vibes from this

strikes me like it's meant more to grandstand for towncred rather than direct conversation in a meaningful direction

it might be a personality/playstyle thing, I don't know Herta, but I'm curious to hear if anyone either feels the same or disagrees

@Bingle - alright, I need to backread fully

[GuiltyLion]

owen's awkward read on gl is pinging me

can you elaborate on this

[GuiltyLion]

I don't understand this attitude at all. What am I missing?

I didn't understand why you told me that votes tell us information, especially in regular mafia set ups. I am aware of that - did you think I was not?

You said "we keep track of votes in a regular game for reasons, one of them is to see who votes for who" - doesn't that statement feel kinda obvious to you?

I'm also having a hard time empathizing with what the intention behind your post was, were you trying to change my mind about posting our ballots? It felt disconnected to me because I was more trying to understand what Pooky was afraid of if we kept ballots secret, I wasn't operating from a stance that there are no benefits to posting our votes. The conversation in my mind was more about evaluating the tradeoffs of consolidating votes or making our votes public, and you jumped in to state benefits of public votes that I wasn't disagreeing with or unaware of.

[GuiltyLion]

SleepyKrew I'd be interested to hear if you have any thoughts about Pookys assertion that scum!you would not jump into a Mayor election against the two of us as townies.

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Datisi I'm fine with calling the read a reach but it's not convoluted at all, UNOwen pressed Bingle on a read I thought was particularly suspicious and to me that demonstrated townie intent. Why do you refer to that as "convoluted"?

[GuiltyLion]

Seems like GL is either someone who thinks about the game so differently from me that I can't possibly understand it or he's scum.

If you can't understand things I post you could alwaus ask me questions. Why haven't you yet? And why such a dichotomy, do you really believe you can't possibly understand my point of view on things?

[GuiltyLion]

Ausuka still public enemy #1

I really don't like that bloodb0t post I just replied to and don't remember anything else they've done so they're also a scumread

otherwise Datisi and Pooky have each given me some weird pings but they could both easily be town. I also didn't understand why LLD is at town!Pooky with such high confidence, that struck me as a lil pockety

[GuiltyLion]

If you don't understand something I said that seems like a natural place to begin?

Can you give an example of an answer to a question I've given that you thought was scummy and explain why you thought it was scummy

[GuiltyLion]

Ausuka still public enemy #1

I really don't like that bloodb0t post I just replied to and don't remember anything else they've done so they're also a scumread

otherwise Datisi and Pooky have each given me some weird pings but they could both easily be town. I also didn't understand why LLD is at town!Pooky with such high confidence, that struck me as a lil pockety

I don't see what Ausuka's done wrong and seeing a couple of players call her scum out of nowhere a few pages ago was weird

It's less about what shes done wrong, rather all I see from her is trying to pass vibe checks and little in the way of actual sorting or town mindset.

Heres a recent example:

Pooky and GL scumread me which is scummy so I am forced to vote for SleepyKrew for mayor

This post is trying to sound chill and blase but the underlying reasoning is weaksauce - I highly doubt Ausuka genuinely thinks both of us are scum each maneuvering to discredit specifically her in particular. so either she's joking about reads to avoid actually giving a read on us, or she's not joking about the read and its an underwhelming take. Neither feels townie.

I also still have my initial issue with her pressing on me feeling like it wasn't meant to accomplish anything meaningful - but Datisi thought it was "reasonable" so ymmv

[GuiltyLion]

@gl I will answer any of your questions too, but atm I'm feeling like you haven't wanted to ask me questions this game because you don't think you'll be able to make people read me scum by doing that.

Where did this come from? I've literally been asking you questions right in this very dialogue?? Were there other posts you thought I should have asked you about that I didn't?

[GuiltyLion]

these are the people I am voting for:

Treasurer: Herta
Sherriff: Datisi
Council Member: actiondan
Trash Collector: sircakez
Board of Election: bloodb0t

[GuiltyLion]

@pooky, gl- I've been nursing a tinfoil for a while now because it's a cheeky scumfuck move I totally would have encouraged my teammates to pull and I want your thoughts. Dats/Ausuka/Enchant team all yolo declared for Sheriff to completely negate town's chances of having a cop and force a scum member into the PT.

I think mechanically it's an interesting idea but my hesitation here is it doesn't feel especially like Ausuka/Datisi have engaged in like, a ton of theater? Like if the plan was to coordinate and make sure they all get cop, they're kind of not really following up on doing anything with the declarations locked down. I wouldn't rule it out but so far Datisi kind of gives me the vibe he's doing his own thing

[GuiltyLion]

Gl, could you summarize your experience with Nono?

I don't believe I've ever played with them, if I have I don't remember it. I agree the sucking up to me is getting a bit weird at this point

[GuiltyLion]

@Bloob0t 766

it seems like you mainly take issue with the way I ask questions. I agree that my questions are definitely directed and forceful, but I disagree with your categorization of them as "leading" or "gotcha" questions. A "gotcha" question is meant to be like - haha, I caught you in a hypocrisy, which makes you scum! - and I think maybe the only one that really feels like it could be interpreted that way was the question to Bingle about why he was focused on me instead of Ausuka/Datisi when he was arguing that I should have known and advocated for his opinion on scummy people being elected cop.

Rather I mainly push on people over things that strike me as hard to understand or hard to believe, but I would say I give them room to explain themselves or answer. Like even though I hated Bingle's approach to me early game when he elaborated on it and responded to me I got the vibe that I was wrong and he provided explanations/thoughts that 'clicked' with what I didn't like, so it changed my mind on him.

I think to catch mafia and make them feel uncomfortable you gotta push hard, we could all just sit around and be nice and make jokes and then anyone who is charismatic and witty and clever is going to skate right into endgame without feeling any pressure. That's my belief and that's why I am not afraid to confront people or call out shit that looks suspicious. I understand mafia's goal is to throw dirt on townies so my interrogative style can come across as agenda-based, but I would encourage you to look at the

content

of what I am saying about people or pressuring them over and see if you really have issue with the points I am making. That's why it was weird to me that you asserted that you simply cannot understand the way I think about the game - I am happy to try to explain anything I say in more detail or elaborate if I'm confusing or unclear with what I dislike or what I find suspicious. Your post seems a lot more focused on my style and not my substance.

I am having fun this game so far! No one has been too toxic or difficult and it's so early that it feels like anything can happen. I much prefer playing town just because playing mafia is exhausting and takes a lot of thought and work. as town it's a lot easier to post. I do think I've been busy this week and haven't been able to play quite as much as I'd like, but also I think we're a bit stalled waiting to get through the elections and once we can have votes/wagons there will be a more dynamic game to engage with.

do you think I'm not having fun? if so, what makes you think that?

[GuiltyLion]

these are the people I am voting for:

Treasurer: Herta
Sherriff: Datisi
Council Member: actiondan
Trash Collector: sircakez
Board of Election: bloodb0t

can you sell me on why you're voting for herta

and why you're voting for me, considering your earlier comment

Mainly I didn't like LLD's townread on Pooky

Herta's engagement with me yesterday felt too pure / agendaless to be scummy imo, I townread the way they reacted to me calling them out

which comment are you referring to? I don't think you're like... particularly scummy, especially compared to Ausuka? I'm null town on you and frankly trust you if town more than Enchant

[GuiltyLion]

I don't think unowen has done a lot, but I scumread unowen in this game for what looked like a lack of content and he was town in that. I think he improved over time in that game. I don't think his post about GL was bad considering he was asked for that take.

@pooky my reads don't have a massive amount of clarity at this point. if I had a vote it'd probably still be on GL. I think broadly he knows better than what he has posted so far in this game - it would be understandable if he was paranoid of me after the large we played together, but this approach where he's acting like my scum strategy is to avoid giving reads for some reason feels like not an authentic or thought through read. I especially don't like the comment that I am 'defo' scum because again i think he should really know better than that. not a massive fan of AD or meowth either but those reads are still developing and whatever

Ausuka why do you think scum!GL is more likely to call you 'defo' scum than town!GL? Do you think unwarranted confidence is a scumtell?

also I don't think it's a "strategy" to avoid giving reads rather I just feel like you aren't doing anything that feels townie or demonstrates that you have a need to solve players in this game

[GuiltyLion]

yeah I don't really have any thoughts on enchant currently

will re-ISO but mainly just feel a lack of any posts that felt distinctly townie so far

[GuiltyLion]

I find it hard to believe that you've never encountered the mindset that it's better to project confidence in your reads in order to make people feel pressure, or that you aren't considering at all that I might be doing that

also, illuminate me then. Why did you joke about me and Pooky being bad candidates because we scumread you instead of mentioning your actual suspicion of me? What was the reason for the blase attitude about your mayor vote?

[GuiltyLion]

ok, that's what I'm trying to do lol

[GuiltyLion]

hey Ausuka

here's a post from my most recent town game where I said I purposefully exaggerate D1 scumreads for pressure

[GuiltyLion]

why are you using such aggressive and loaded language? "blatant" bullshit?

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like I guess really what I want to ask is - it feels like I struck a nerve, but I don't understand why? You even acknowledged that after you completely snowed me last game it would make sense that I'd be a lot more careful around you? Are you offended that I'm scumreading you?

[GuiltyLion]

@Ausuka it's ok to be aggressive I'm just trying to suss out whether this is scum defensiveness or town offendedness

you're not making the game less fun don't worry, I apologize if I'm doing that for you

I recognize a lot of people like joking around in these games but there's always certain jokes that ping me and if you're town you just happened to be on the wrong side of that this game and hopefully I'll work around it once I get a better sense of your reads and you're scumreads. it's still super early imo

[GuiltyLion]

okay i did this and i found nothing there to townread herta on

you don't think the doubling down in 663/664 is pure? I didn't detect any self-consciousness about being sussed. if they're scum they were smart enough to commit to the bit

[GuiltyLion]

@Ausuka I guess I'm just a surprising guy then, always subverting expectations

[GuiltyLion]

Can you give my ISO a read and point out anything that sticks out and/or give an updated read?

I just skimmed your ISO and I still don't see anything that strikes me as particularly useful or indicative or demonstrative of town alignment. Outside of your townbloc in 493 I see very little in the way of actual reads on players or efforts to understand them better, a lot of crowdsourcing questions that don't go anywhere or seem to line up with your thought processes in a clear way.

Can you elaborate on this?

I anticipate this set up will feel a bit swingy given that we have new elections for the PRs each day phase and it's going to be difficult for scum to chart out a multi-day plan because they will have to navigate unpredictable shifts in town power. Given that, my feeling is that keeping your teammates alive early will be generally more valuable to scum setting themselves up for success rather than a short term gain of towncred by burying a buddy

consider again that the argument/idea I was replying to was that I were scum with both Datisi and Ausuka and trying to look good by distancing with them. what gain would that really do for scum!me here?

I was guessing that you preferred to play as town but I couldn't tell if you were having fun or not. It did seem like your the tone of your posts was more work than play.

to be frank, this idea/thought is currently the only thing that's keeping me from pushing/tunneling you, because it's something I haven't seen scum pick up on before and I'm not sure it's an intuitive angle to take if you know my alignment

but I would argue that finding mafia

is

work, and again you are conflating "trying" with "being scum" in a way that I'm finding hard to completely grok. Given your vote on me, would you feel comfortable saying that you are more confident that I am scum over anyone else in the playerlist?

[GuiltyLion]

Meh I'm just going to save my energy and vote the following based on gut:

Treasurer: LLD
Sherriff: enchant
Mayor: SK
Council Member: meowth
Trash Collector: furtiveglance

explain the sheriff vote

especially if I am your top scumread, then I am not understanding why you think Enchant would be most likely to be town of that group. I've barely said anything at all at or about Enchant

[GuiltyLion]

VOTE: Nono

[GuiltyLion]

And of Auskuka, UNOwen, Enchant and SK, they all vote together and 3/4 of them are likely going to be PRs despite none of them being consensus town reads. I'd like to think that's telling.

I'm baffled by the Enchant and SK votes, I do not believe someone can earnestly say they have a townread on either of those players with any realistic degree of confidence

(this is an open invitation for people who voted for these players to show me what I'm missing and why I should townread them)

[GuiltyLion]

these are the people I

am voting

voted for:

Treasurer: Herta
Sherriff: Datisi
Council Member: actiondan
Trash Collector: sircakez
Board of Election: bloodb0t

[GuiltyLion]

@guiltylion, have you explained why you went from townreading unowen to voting dan for council?

I have not, and the answer is I townread ActionDan a lot more strongly

[GuiltyLion]

I get disliking his reaction but it's not especially hard for me to imagine coming from him as town, so I don't put a ton of stock into it

I'm currently more interested in voting Nono because they've yet to demonstrate any serious engagement with the game and I think Bingle's call out in 464 was a good catch that Nono didn't appear to be genuinely paying attention to pooky and LLD's posts in a manner that is more likely to come from scum rather than town attempting to sort/solve players. I'm also curious if anyone townreads Nono or would be unwilling to vote there

[GuiltyLion]

You probably don't understand but i am picked NOT because i am not top townread.

I think it's most important to err on keeping scum out of PRs than to try to vote for 'who would be the best at the role'.

^this would imply that BloodB0t voted based on who he thought was top town in each category, which means that he thinks you are least likely to be scum out of the three candidates for Sheriff. If he thinks I am scum, I am having a hard time understanding how that integrates with thinking you are townier than Datisi/Ausuka, both of whom have argued with me or pushed back against my opinions and influence, and one of whom I was pushing explicitly as mafia.

[GuiltyLion]

VOTE: guiltylion

Doing this makes me feel stubborn because I have been beating this drum all game but i still don't really think there is any better vote right now

what's your read on Nono? I just skimmed through your ISO and do not see a single mention of them at all

also, did you not have any thoughts on Bloodb0t's pivot from voting me to voting you? I find it weird you didn't comment on that either

[GuiltyLion]

As I forecasted, the key swing voter GuiltyLion and his proxy lost me the election. My advisors assured me that I had the lion demographic in the bag!

GL, what’s your read on meowth?

mostly null but slightly scum leaning due to the fact that I haven't gotten a lot of town vibes from them despite them being around and posting

I also really dislike this post on principle:

VOTE: Nono

i feel like this is a waste of time

@meowth, do you townread Nono? If you do, I'd like you to explain, and if you don't, how on earth could you possibly think that wagoning them is a "waste of time"?

[GuiltyLion]

I think Datisi tends to tryhard in small settings where he needs to show his towniness - see small group in D&C and him in hoods - he was even townie in house of the dragon when he was trying to infiltrate the townbloc

this is a point for Datisi town, isn't it? He's capable of tryharding as scum and has previously tryharded his way to earning a cop role as mafia, I think the lack of ~effort~ to be townread is vibing a bit different from HoD to me.

also whats your read of whats taking place in the sheriff elections

do you think scum sent any1 to the sheriff elections? who?

I think it's indisputable that regardless of Enchant's alignment, scum preferred him as sheriff over the other two candidates.

I want to say that makes Enchant slightly more likely to be scum on the whole but I wouldn't also put a ton of stock into that because it's possible all three candidates were town

[GuiltyLion]

i don't have a read on nono

i don't think giving my input is always necessarily helpful and the bloodbot vote is one of those times. i feel the same way about nono, honestly

mmmm ok

assuming you are town, I think it's a pretty fundamental mistake to believe that I'm a better vote than Nono if you have no read on Nono. I typed up a bit more explaining why but realized it probably sounds condescending and/or WIFOMy. that's maybe overall more of a mafia discussion topic and may not mean a whole lot to you coming from me. I otherwise feel like your answers to my questions are fine

[GuiltyLion]

Plus for some reason I feel having the replacement come into the game under pressure is pro town.

It doesn't work as well if you say this out loud!

[GuiltyLion]

Also I had a nightmare last night that I was somehow able to see a PM between Pooky and Shea that spoiled the JOAT abilities and I had to replace out

It was a relief when I realized it was a dream and nothing had been spoiled

[GuiltyLion]

Also I had a nightmare last night that I was somehow able to see a PM between Pooky and Shea that spoiled the JOAT abilities and I had to replace out

It was a relief when I realized it was a dream and nothing had been spoiled

what were the joat abilities in your dream

Dream me panicked and clicked away before I could read and absorb the entirety of the pm but I saw Pooky saying he wanted to jail somebody (dont remember who) and asking a clarifying question about the next mayor inheriting the three abilities, and I saw I could see Sheas initial PM threaded

I can't remember if I knew the other two in the dream and forgot on waking up or if that information was never actually in dream consciousness rather I just had the impression of having to leave the game immediately upon seeing it

[GuiltyLion]

lol wait til you get to the part where I also had the same thought

[GuiltyLion]

link to the "really bad case"?

Bingle who ya talking to here

[GuiltyLion]

ah ok nvm Bingle I see you meant UNOwen's 956

Meowth vote pivot is generally appealing I may do that if I decide STD is townie enough for me to move my vote

[GuiltyLion]

@Datisi -

As I forecasted, the key swing voter GuiltyLion and his proxy lost me the election. My advisors assured me that I had the lion demographic in the bag!

GL, what’s your read on meowth?

mostly null but slightly scum leaning due to the fact that I haven't gotten a lot of town vibes from them despite them being around and posting

I also really dislike this post on principle:

VOTE: Nono

i feel like this is a waste of time

@meowth, do you townread Nono? If you do, I'd like you to explain, and if you don't, how on earth could you possibly think that wagoning them is a "waste of time"?

this is my main thing, I don't see the town mindset to post 1042, dismissing another player's wagon like that unless you are actively townreading the wagonee

I see UNOwen's point too though around meowth's reasoning for not liking UNOwen being flimsy

what have you "generally liked" from them that you feel is town-indicative?

[GuiltyLion]

why are constructed sentences scummy

[GuiltyLion]

do you guys usually play scum by constructing your sentences really hard? I don't think that's an effective strategy but maybe I'm out of the loop

when you are scum you are fabricating your thought processes and that inherently leads to a greater chance of 'constructed sentences'. there's a second order thinking to everything you post ('what is my read on this player, does this post sound believable/real, who am I trying to miseliminate/pocket, etc) that doesn't exist when you are town and makes you more likely to sound a bit robotic/awkward with how you phrase your fake thoughts.

yes, better scum players are able to more convincingly hip fire takes or sound natural but it should be pretty obvious why someone might think a sentence that uses "I think I lean [...] I think" is more likely to come from a player who is making up what they think versus naturally expressing it.

[GuiltyLion]

it's not about whether you know ahead of writing the post what you want to say, it's just that what you're saying is inherently

not what you actually think

and so the post is more likely to be expressed artificially and over-use of phrases like "I think" might happen because when you're town you don't need to say "I think" because you just... actually think it

I feel I must be misunderstanding you somehow, do you really mean to argue that there aren't semantic tells between town and scum? you post the exact same way as either alignment?

@furtive - I agree town is often indecisive too, I personally don't think Ausuka's original post was scum-indicative, but the question she's asking strikes me as weird - even if you disagree with UNOwen's assessment of that post, it shouldn't be controversial to suggest that a sentence that feels artificial or like it was produced under unnecessary cognitive load is scummy

[GuiltyLion]

ok but you're misrepresenting his point, it's not that you said "I think", it's that you said "I think" twice in the same sentence and also the first one was that you "think" that you "lean"

[GuiltyLion]

ok but you're misrepresenting his point, it's not that you said "I think", it's that you said "I think" twice in the same sentence and also the first one was that you "think" that you "lean"

What do you make of the fact that the "I think I wish I wonder" post was empty mechspec and thus likely AI neutral and real thoughts anyway?

Like, there's no motivation to lie or misrepresent thought processes from scumsuka there at all, because scumsuka and townsuka should have the same thoughts on whether it's good to manipulate council voting at that point in time.

I think in general scum might still feel awkward about engaging in mechspec because they are going to want to gently nudge mech decisions that favor them or at minimum pretend to be okay with ones they think are pro-town / may not disadvantage them

however that said I don't have the same issues as UNOwen with that post, it didn't strike me as artificially constructed in a way that was unlikely to come from town

what I namely took issue with was Ausuka's question suggesting that constructed sentences aren't scummy, because I think UNOwen's thought process is clear even if you disagree with his read or opinion on Ausuka's post

however having thought through it a bit more I'm slightly inclined to townread Ausuka's response here because I almost

have

to think scum!Ausuka would understand why their constructed sentence is registering as scummy and there doesn't seem to be any self-consciousness at all about asking about it. instead it's easier for me to imagine her reaction more in line with a town "I did this thing and I'm not scum so therefore it's not scummy"

also this is no longer a response to your question but just a related thought - last time I played with Ausuka she was scum and totally snowed me pretty much the entire game. I have doubts that I (personally) would be able to catch her on D1 in this game and I think the fact that I'm disliking her questions or reactions to things might indicate town personality/playstyle clash more than anything

[GuiltyLion]

VOTE: meowth

[GuiltyLion]

this is my main thing, I don't see the town mindset to post 1042, dismissing another player's wagon like that unless you are actively townreading the wagonee

i can see myself posting something like 1042, if i hadn't already known your affinity towards wagoning nothing slots. i have more to say here, but i don't want to potentially be feeding meowth answers, so i can circle back to this later.

as for what i liked:

i think 979 is really townie for meowth. it calls out furtive's disonance with his enchant read, where he's both calling him town and claiming he's gotten good at reading them, but also like. (still!!) refusing to make a case or even just link games, and claiming others are overreacting for questioning him about it and asking for an update.

and 775.

also i'm not sure why scum-him keeps trying to lowkey push enchant when enchant is obviously not getting yeeted today, but /shrug.

fwiw 618 seems like a *fine* post to me, but maybe that's because i am biased

Datisi fwiw I see what you're saying about liking 979 but I also think that post could easily come from scum!meowth trying to fake scumhunt a town!furtive

like yes meowth picked up on something dissonant with furtive but I don't think being scum precludes you from identifying dissonant things that townies post or do

that said I am probably gonna need to do a serious re-eval on furtive cause I have kinda lazily shelved him as town and a few of his recent posts are not feeling so great to me - I will think about that later

[GuiltyLion]

do you find std townie?

generally yeah, he's not a at a point where I'd be shocked if he flipped scum but my central issue was Nono was that they seemed reluctant or unable to get involved in the game and StD is providing enough thoughts and content that I'd like to move on to someone else I feel hasn't done anything but take potshots and coast

I don't think the things you and Ausuka are grilling him on strike me as alignment indicative

[GuiltyLion]

asked shea and nono did indeed vote for the people claimed in this post

*sigh* i'll do it myself

herta
enchant
lion
dan
cake

also I have a hot take that people may disagree with in that I think this is likely a Real Thing that happened judging by the timing of when StD posted confirming this relative to his catchup and when he would likely get a response from Shea

[GuiltyLion]

I still think generally scum!you would be more likely to either not think to confirm Nono's votes or mention that ASAP, the execution of doing it somewhat randomly in the middle of a catchup feels pure and more likely in accordance with reality rather than a made up thing where you already knew how Nono voted from a scum PT

[GuiltyLion]

You know scum have to vote as well...

think you missed my point friend, maybe try to make sure you fully understand what I'm saying before you decide to snarkpost

[GuiltyLion]

i kind of would like your take which is why i'm asking

i don't know if this is the least fun game of mafia i've ever played but it's somewhere up there

Ausuka I don't know if this question will continue to contribute to the unfun but can you help me understand why? I don't think anyone's been especially mean or toxic and I'm not seeing what specifically would make this game one of the Least Fun Games Of All Time for you

[GuiltyLion]

You know scum have to vote as well...

think you missed my point friend, maybe try to make sure you fully understand what I'm saying before you decide to snarkpost

No, I got the point being that Nono 'trueclaimed' the votes, but you could still do that as scum

It has nothing to do with whether Nono trueclaiming votes or not, it has everything to do with the timing of when StD mentioned that he reconfirmed the votes and the fact that the did it at all. If he were scum my assumption is that he would already know how Nono voted from seeing discussion in a PT about it. so if he's scum, he decided to wait until he was 3/4 of the way through his catchup to then plan a fake "I've confirmed the votes" post

[GuiltyLion]

also if he were scum he could easily lie about Shea telling him how Nono voted upon replace in, or that he's "asked and now waiting for a response!" or anything along those lines.

if this was faked it was smoothly done and not necessarily an intuitive thing that everyone as scum would do correctly

[GuiltyLion]

I'm not trying to imply you're an asshole or anything I'm just trying to get better context to understand you

are you frustrated about not winning the cop, being sussed, the particular things people are sussing you over? is it that you've been suspected more in this game over things you see as your personality compared to most games?

[GuiltyLion]

also feel free to ignore / not answer me if that feels like too much labor or not fun

I don't think I'm voting you today anyways, just trying to gather more info, but it's not super important

p-edit: ah ok thanks

[GuiltyLion]

I think I may have set you off on a bad foot by playing up confidence in you being scum so I am sorry for the role I played in that

[GuiltyLion]

I consider Pooky to be mafia btw

who do you think are mafia buddies voting him?

pooky(6) - actiondan, datisi, herta, lld, meowth, unowen

[GuiltyLion]

actually nvm @Enchant I see you are voting Datisi so my question is maybe a lil stupid

[GuiltyLion]

my feeling is players with that particular playstyle dont usually react to wagons by suddenly becoming easier to read.

What do you mean by "that particular playstyle", and if pressuring or wagoning them does not make them easier to read, what do you believe

does

make them easier to read?

if you actually wanted to lim nono id prefer to do it towards the end of the day as i dont think it would be a particularly informative elimination if nono is town (this is colored by my read on nono which was basically pure null).

first off, you yourself here are acknowledging that it would be an informative elimination if Nono is scum, which ties into my original question/take - if you yourself don't townread Nono, who are you to assess whether wagoning/eliminating them is a waste of time?

but secondly - why is eliminating Nono less informative in a general sense?

like, say the Nono slot is town. Don't you think scum are going to have to assess whether they want to take the possible miselim now vs later, and position themselves accordingly? When I'm scum I often find it's difficult to convincingly fake a read on a limbaity non-presence townie in a manner that looks uninformed/believable - a wagon on Nono might pressure them into pumping up an artificially fake scumread in order to justify a hop on, or an unconvincing townread to justify staying off the wagon.

people tend to espouse this idea that it's somehow better or "more informative" to wagon & flip the high activity high content posters, but I've found in my experience that's rather exaggerated, it's easier for scum to fake a tunnel or pick a shitfight with a high content townie than it is express a convincing fake read on limbait. I also think high content posters are just generally more likely to be town on average, making the lurking/disengaged slots superior early game eliminations from an objective sense. Further - again assuming Nono is town, they're more valuable as a late game miselim for scum than an early one, as those types of players always make for convenient POE scumreads in the lategame whereas a lategame of high octane tryhard players is a more dynamic and difficult gamestate to bend reads around.

The best case scenario is that we lim a high activity/content scumbutt who gives us a treasure trove of associatives and townspews to pour over, but I think this rarely happens in practice - mafias who are capable of posting high volume and high information do not tend to get correctly sussed/eliminated on D1, and if they do, that usually means the other mafias planned specifically for this scenario and set up a healthy amount of WIFOM/anti-associatives to hide effectively. So I wholesale reject the premise that Nono (at that stage in time) is a bad wagon due to less "information". IMO the very idea of "information" eliminations in general leads to bad reasoning and bad votes.

a lot of this last paragraph is possibly just philosophy differences, but overall I still think it's skeevy that you seemed content to sit with a pure nullread on Nono and didn't have any urgency to resolve that, and instead went as far as to suggest we

shouldn't

attempt to resolve that. if you're town I'd like to see a lot more from you in terms of how you're going to sharpen your reads and resolve uncertainties you have on null players

[GuiltyLion]

also, flashwagoning Nono at deadline after spending the day pushing elsewhere would be like the worst case scenario for town, because scum loooove a deadline compromise elimination. "Eh I could see it either way but we have 20 hours to deadline and we need a lim" vote Nono oh no Nono was town!! is a super easy angle to take as mafia because no one is going to blame you for scrambling to make a lim go through at deadline. Consistent building pressure ASAP is far more useful in pressuring scum to feel uncomfortable and take contrived stances

[GuiltyLion]

I'd happily wagon SleepyKrew if we wanna do that instead

[GuiltyLion]

let's wait to turn our brains off until we've got 2 or 3 early scum lims and we're at the point where we cruise control into a town loss by never re-evaluating after we build up the false sense of security

[GuiltyLion]

idk how to interpret your post mine was an attempt at humor? lol

[GuiltyLion]

don't ask me to lead, you're the one who got elected mayor

[GuiltyLion]

LLD I feel where you're coming from that it's frustrating that Ausuka is reacting to pressure with potentially tactical AtEs and taking offense at being suspected. I felt similarly when I had a dustup with Ausuka earlier in the game. I agree ideally Ausuka would not respond in this manner and it'd be easier to rule out the possibility that she's playing up her emotional reactions to things to defuse pressure and avoid providing more traditionally readable content, especially since you're not actually voting/championing Ausuka

That said I also share Datisi's sentiments that this does not really feel like the game I played with scum!Ausuka and that this is a potential misyeet. I hear you that you don't do meta and don't find that convincing, I mainly just want to say I don't think Datisi is lying in that regard and I can see town!him coming to that conclusion. generally I don't think a scum!Datisi chainsaws for town!Ausuka here because as scum there's not really any incentive to try to come in here and play peacemaker. these past couple pages actually make me feel much more resolute in a Datisi townread. (still can't believe most of y'all voted for Enchant instead -.-)

I think

if

Ausuka is scum and playing this way it's because all her teammates are afk/playing badly which would contribute to an unfun game that she doesn't want to carry. so I feel in that world it'll be straightforward enough to get the easy scum out first, and if by that point she's still not engaging at a deep level showing towniness it'll be easier to revisit and evaluate her alignment

[GuiltyLion]

also I don't mean to stir anything up if we had hit a natural endpoint to the conversation I mostly felt compelled to express that I TR Datisi's last few pages quite strongly and felt I had to address the overall conversation to explain that read without it coming across as dismissive to LLD's point of view

[GuiltyLion]

also I generally TR LLD's past few pages overall here, should say that as well

[GuiltyLion]

enchant - i am very interested in applying pressure here tomorrow. im not scum reading anything enchant has done in particular but the votes make me very suspicious. i am very curious to see what happens at night

meowth - when you say "the votes make [you] very suspicious", you're referring to the votes for sheriff right? didn't you also vote him for sheriff?

[GuiltyLion]

hmmm

I am losing confidence in meowth scumread but I am not sure if that's a good or correct thing

I will think and do more later

[GuiltyLion]

I am losing confidence in meowth scumread but I am not sure if that's a good or correct thing

Really? Opposite. I didn't think the initial callout of your vote was worth raising an eyebrow over (it struck me as a vanity/pressure wagon on a likely to be replaced slot and thus probably a waste of time overall, but not a waste of time that was worth exploring.) The response to pressure since has been a flailfest.

yah I'm worried I'm currently prone to "oh I see what you are saying so that makes you townie" lazy reactions to his posts so I want to sit with it and digest them for a bit

I am surprised he's calling out slots that he voted for the amount of support they got, my gut feeling is that scum would be more worried about consistency than that, but I don't know if that's necessarily an accurate assumption

[GuiltyLion]

I'm also generally thinking I'd feel best about a SleepyKrew vote, dude's been in a state of prodge for like a solid week now

but I don't know if I'm ready or willing to derail the meowth wagon

[GuiltyLion]

I don't think I was being sexist or transphobic or anything, feel free to report me if you think so though.

I'm gonna take a break from the thread, but safe to say I sympathise with Ausuka and I don't think the thumbs up emoji is offensive

context matters

I can think of virtually infinite hypothetical scenarios where using a thumbs up emoji is offensive. also as a general point you don't get to decide what someone else finds offensive

the main point is that you were trying to shut down LLD over a game-related argument that you weren't even originally involved in by shaming her for using caps. if you're truly bothered by someone expressing emotions via capital letter text you could have engaged far more politely and authentically than you did, which looked to me like it was nothing more than an attempt to silence her. 1459 was particularly unnecessary since there you were making up a reaction from LLD without her even saying anything.

[GuiltyLion]

Cakez, as an addendum to Bingle's response/questions for you

do you think the current council is all town?

[GuiltyLion]

Cakez, as an addendum to Bingle's response/questions for you

do you think the current council is all town?

No way Im scum or null on most of them.

ok so in that case, what exactly are you afraid that Bingle is trying to do? wouldn't scum already have access to the information that he's asking for?

[GuiltyLion]

I get the feeling he is trying to manipulate things in scum's favor.

specifically this, I don't see how this makes sense to say if you also scumread the council

[GuiltyLion]

why would a townie be looking for an easy wagon on an inactive person right now?

This is legitimately how I play D1s, I operate under the assumption that most people who are demonstrably active and appear to be gamesolving are probably town and its more likely some scum are failing to keep up than it is that I can correctly discern between active scum and active town.

Here's a question for you - if you think I am scummy, why are you comfortable joining me on my wagon of choice? Can you explain your meowth scumread?

[GuiltyLion]

*does he think I’m lying about having straight up forgotten about this game? does he think my lack of energy most of the time when I am around is an act? because I haven’t seen him say as much. he’s not trying to ascertain my alignment nor is his push motivated by a read

Also on this, I don't think I would be able to tell if you are lurking/coasting and lying about "forgetting the game" or a lack of energy, or if you are town and telling the truth. Like I don't think there's a reliable way to tell the difference given what you've posted. I'd be surprised if you disagree with that.

Moreover, you don't get any benefit of the doubt because I haven't seen you attempt to solve, attempt to steer the game, attempt to express your opinions and beliefs to the degree that most other players have. I remember one early Bingle post that you hated and thats it. Even your election votes were seemingly decided by an offhand comment by furtive.

If you aren't going to give any confidence that you're going to get with it and do shit to try to help town win, then you're a good elimination as far as I'm concerned, and the earlier the better so that we won't have to deal with higher stakes over actually sorting you properly over a series of prod dodges when the margin of error is smaller.

[GuiltyLion]

and another thing, going back to "why would a townie be looking to wagon an inactive person right now"

why would

scum

look to wagon an inactive person right now?? let's grant you the benefit of the doubt and assume you are town. you are currently zero threat to scum. do you think you will magically get harder to miseliminate later if you are not even bothering to get your hands dirty with reads and opinions during the very first phase of the game? do you think I'd rather face people like Bingle/LLD/Pooky/whoever in ELO after pushing a bunch of miselims on LHF limbait townies? is that how I set myself up to win endgame?

no, limbait lurkers are friends of scum, scum like to shield em and keep em around then dump them later only once town realizes they're at a stage where they can't afford to bet the game on some low volume poster barely giving reads and "forgetting" about the game. if you're town, you should be far more concerned with people who don't seem to care what you're doing than people who are trying to push you to shape up. Like my actions only make sense being scum-motivated in the most basic surface-level "he's pushing the easiest slot to push so he's scum" tier logic, and I'd hope some people in this game would vouch for me that that's not how I play scum

[GuiltyLion]

I don't think you pushing on SK is going to impact whether he lives or dies today so I'm not sure that point about "scum like to keep limbait around" really applies cuz it's not like you're going to kill him today anyway?

If you're scum, you're pushing SK to look busy, not to murder him lol

Ehh you're right but he framed it like I was trying to murder him so thats what I was responding to. I actually would understand more if his argument were in the vein of me setting him up for later or just trying to look busy, but that's not what he said

[GuiltyLion]

Bingle I know you said earlier that you'd rather sit back and see how other people use the roles and that's why you didn't declare for any positions, but how are you feeling now that the council is refusing to give you the info you want? Wouldn't this game have been easier to mech-spec if you had just become mayor or something yourself

overall I like most of the stuff you're posting but I'm not sure how to feel about the fact that you were willing to sit back and let other players actually get the PRs and potentially hide info from you, it seems counter to your general strategy of Doing Mech Shit

[GuiltyLion]

The issue here is that Enchant won the vote so handily that it seems like scum are already ok with him getting the role. That doesn't necessarily mean he is scum but it does suggest scum aren't too bothered about dealing with the choice of To Kill or Not To Kill

[GuiltyLion]

The issue here is that Enchant won the vote so handily that it seems like scum are already ok with him getting the role. That doesn't necessarily mean he is scum but it does suggest scum aren't too bothered about dealing with the choice of To Kill or Not To Kill

so what

r they going to jump up and down and say nooopo this plan sucks

its unfair

why did we sign up for this game.

it just makes me question whether we're actually getting any value out of Enchant being the sheriff as opposed to someone more readable and more likely to be town

like if scum were going to NK the cop, why not throw their weight behind voting a strong town in there

it's not like everyone explicitly agreed with Bingle that this was the best way to vote, I don't recall thread consensus that that was what we were doing

[GuiltyLion]

like if scum were going to NK the cop, why not throw their weight behind voting a strong town in there

what strong town decided to declare for cop lol

I dunno I feel like Datisi is pretty good at mafia

[GuiltyLion]

to be clear strong = someone threatening to scum if town, not strong like obviously town

sorry if that was ambiguous

[GuiltyLion]

also like the counterargument that "well why didnt scum make datisi the cop if like datisi is town and scary" falls apart along several lines:

1) datisi might be scum
2) scum might not feel threatened by Datisi
3) scum might not know shit about the plan and think its better to make the cop a scum or whatever

ultimately we dont know why scum didnt take any number of hypothetical countermoves to the plan

the point is the plan is pretty good and works and there is no reason to not use it.

I'm just saying I don't think scum are all that worried by Enchant being the cop and if they

were

I think we would have seen someone else in there or at least a more closely contested election

like yes in theory scum being forced to kill town!Enchant instead of a more townread and more influential player is a win for town, but it seems to me like scum are currently completely fine with the state of affairs and that makes me question whether the plan actually worked as we intended

your points here are exactly why I don't think Enchant as cop is better than Datisi as cop? just swap the name "datisi" with "enchant". Like it's not clear what you're really arguing at this point to me

[GuiltyLion]

I'm still not over you claiming my role as vanilla town when I was vig

[GuiltyLion]

but more seriously, it's not that I don't think you're bad at cop really, I just think you're often difficult to read with confidence and I probably wouldn't fully trust your results until after you flip

[GuiltyLion]

i also dont know what we are arguing about tbh

it feels like you r saying criticisms of the plan that are not really thought out or proposing a better plan

I think the plan in theory was fine

I'm just pointing out that Enchant won the vote by a huge majority so scum went along with the plan, and that feels like it's worth calling out because it raises doubts about Enchant cop being a bad thing for scum or a good thing for town

[GuiltyLion]

yes I know there are a lot of possible explanations. The more likely ones imo are that enchant is scum, or that scum thinks enchant sucks. it's very unlikely to me that scum felt Enchant being cop was worse for them than Datisi cop or Ausuka cop. so I would guess that they're not likely to kill enchant and it means the plan isn't really serving town all that much in the way that we intended (scum will have to shoot Enchant or live with a cop result). That's what I'm saying.

[GuiltyLion]

and please remember that I wouldn't be making this point if Enchant narrowly won like a 7-6 split vote

he won almost unopposed in a 9-2-1 election. that is worth paying attention to.

[GuiltyLion]

treasurer:
herta(5) - enchant, furtiveglance, guiltylion, nono, unowen
lld(8) - actiondan, bingle, bloodb0t, datisi, meowth, pooky, sircakez, sleepykrew

sheriff:
datisi(2) - actiondan, guiltylion
ausuka(1) - sircakez
enchant(9) - bingle, bloodb0t, furtiveglance, herta, meowth, nono, pooky, sleepykrew, unowen

mayor:
pooky(6) - actiondan, datisi, herta, lld, meowth, unowen
guiltylion(2) - bingle, nono
sleepykrew(4) - bloodb0t, enchant, furtiveglance, sircakez

council member:
meowth(4) - bingle, bloodb0t, enchant, sircakez
unowen(2) - pooky, sleepykrew
actiondan(6) - datisi, furtiveglance, guiltylion, herta, lld, nono

trash collector:
sircakez(6) - actiondan, bingle, datisi, guiltylion, herta, nono
furtiveglance(6) - bloodb0t, enchant, meowth, pooky, sleepykrew, unowen

board of election:
bloodb0t(13) - actiondan, bingle, datisi, enchant, furtiveglance, guiltylion, herta, meowth, nono, pooky, sircakez, sleepykrew, unowen

posting this for reference again since I find myself frequently going back to look for this post, and to make my point more visually

the sheriff election was the biggest runaway (outside of the unopposed board election, obviously). unless we're in the specific world where multiple scums ran for sheriff, it's likely enchant got the most scum support out of anyone that got elected.

[GuiltyLion]

one thought that hadn't occurred to me, looking at the election results just now

trash collector was obviously highly contested. do we think that makes it more likely that one of the two candidates is scum? if both are town, did scum just split their votes to hide / specifically make it look contested?

looking at the wagons, sircakez wagon looks a lot townier on the whole to me than the furtive wagon. I'd be skeptical of furtive and it's probably a good decision not to give him any money.

[GuiltyLion]

More of a proddodge.

I keep rereading meowth iso and keep thinking its town. I

can

see an internal consistency between their first posting of a readslist 1338 and the followup 1467. I'd question only that Ausuka null-town read again, and ask for an expansion on it. There are also certain individual posts that make me think Meowth is town but I'd be hard pressed to say why, posts like 1337 and 1470 the latter of which is part of a back and forth between Meowth and LLD that I didn't detect a false ring to it from Meowth. My only question to followup on it would be why does it feel like you don't have the confidence to formulate a read off LLD from the early part of the game where LLD was engaged? The pursuit of UNOwen is fine to me. I do on a certain level resonate with 1268 It's relatively true.

StD, Xofelf's reads may well line up with the consensus, but why do you think that in itself would be more likely from scum than town?

what do you make of the fact that meowth has fallen off in engagement the past few days as the wagon on him grew? I totally get what you're saying here and had similar feelings as well, but I've been waiting for meowth to do more and he's just kinda faded into background. That's not necessarily alignment indicative as town or scum

should

want to try harder to stay alive, but it's hard for me to feel good about taking my foot off the gas and I have half a mind that he's just in antispew mode

[GuiltyLion]

TvT vibes

agree on this, I think Bingle is generally more Correct in his points but the way Cakez will acknowledge that he made a mistake or discard valid points against his arguments while continuing to push his Bingle tunnel feels more likely to be town bullheadedness

[GuiltyLion]

TvT vibes

agree on this, I think Bingle is generally more Correct in his points but the way Cakez will acknowledge that he made a mistake or discard valid points against his arguments while continuing to push his Bingle tunnel feels more likely to be town bullheadedness

What are the valid points I'm discarding? When Bingle says things that are legit (like me being wrong on the mech argument) I'm acknowledging it.

Cakez that's basically all I'm saying, you're acknowledging points Bingle is making that seem to refute some of your reasons for suspecting him, but then continuing to suspect him regardless. I didn't mean you were ignoring things, I meant "discard" in the sense of they don't seem to be weakening your read.

if you want I can double back and find specific arguments I was referring to, I'm just lazy quick replying rn

[GuiltyLion]

I've been literally trying not to get into this particular game cause it looks messy but it got the best of me in the end

how much have you read already

[GuiltyLion]

ok, then how'd you know that the game "looks messy"? what gave you that impression?

[GuiltyLion]

for instance I think #1338 from meowth is a good townie sounding readslist.

these are just my first impressions so bare with me with meowth is overtly scummy somewhere but I'm not seeing it so this wagon is surprising.

how do you know the readslist is townie if you haven't read enough of the game to have reads on most of the players?

can you be a bit more specific about what makes a readslist sound townie vs scummy?

[GuiltyLion]

it felt like a suspicious mindset instead of scum forcing things and fakesolving. the readslist and the ISO in general have this feeling. I could be wrong but am also surprised that this is what you're picking to flip today.

I'm not locked into it, I could go elsewhere if you think there's a better option and want to sell it. I agree with you that meowth doesn't seem to be forcing things, however I happen to find that more scummy, not less. I'm a man of votes and actions, not words and feelings

if you think meowth is town then what do you make of UNOwen? I'd also be curious for your thoughts on SleepyKrew

[GuiltyLion]

I might have to whiteknight meowth because it's an unnecessary flip, imo.

again, I invite you to make a case for a better alternative

[GuiltyLion]

GL I can trust you.
Should I trust LLD? Is Meowth more likely to be a wolf than LLD?

I'm not like 100% there on trusting LLD but I'm willing to wait and see what happens with council, funding, today's flip, etc. Not that limming the treasurer is really an option today anyway but I think it's far worse for the game if we misyeet LLD than if we misyeet meowth. I also think meowth generally kinda just fits the profile of scum stalling and hoping for this wagon to die more than town trying to leave us with something useful if he's misyeeted

I might have to whiteknight meowth because it's an unnecessary flip, imo.

again, I invite you to make a case for a better alternative

currently on page 22.

GL, what's your read on sleepykrew?

scummy. all he does is make jokes and try to pass vibe checks, the only players he's notably pushed on or scumread are me and Bingle and I know I'm town and feeling good about Bingle. For several days this past week IRL he's promised a catchup or more content and each time what he's given has been underwhelming.

could still be town - his ISO isn't inconsistent with disengaged town, but I haven't seen any reads or pushes from him that make me think he has a genuine urgency to solve.

[GuiltyLion]

I do vibe with you on Pooky tho Alisae - I think if there's a powerwolf it's more likely him than LLD. since winning Mayor he's kinda just sat back and mostly criticized other people's arguments or POVs without doing much of expressing his own reads or views.

that said I have to assume more solving is going down in the council PT so he might just be town playing coy. I kinda want to just move on with it and yeet somebody and get a night's worth of actions / info before trying to shake up the game any further, this D1 is definitely dragging at this point

[GuiltyLion]

just out of curiosity, how many pages is the council PT?

[GuiltyLion]

as i made clear earlier, on d1 im interested in the easy to sort players

meowth - you around?

which players in this PL would you call easy to sort? is UNOwen in that category?
do you have a response to 1801

[GuiltyLion]

also guiltyLion saying im "not doing anything" is comical openwolfing and he should be flipped and if he was town I would be very surprised

can you quote where I said you were "not doing anything"? Did you get confused with my read on SK

I said you were just sitting back and criticizing people's arguments without doing much of expressing your own reads or views

which is true. I don't feel like I can recall off top of head who you townread, who you scumread. I do remember you jumping in to engage with me over a somewhat pointless argument about whether scum are happy with Enchant being sheriff or not, and jumping in on both sides of me vs SK without really indicating how it informed your reads on either of us

[GuiltyLion]

and doing a similar thing with SirCakez and Bingle

like you're always around to hop in with a disagreement on something someone said, but I'm missing whether you think any of those call outs are meaningfully indicative

[GuiltyLion]

since winning Mayor he's kinda just sat back and mostly criticized other people's arguments or POVs without doing much of expressing his own reads or views.

sorry, I must be forgetting how to read, can you show me where in this post it says you are "not doing anything"?

[GuiltyLion]

rereading my post that feels pedantic so I'll drop the snark and be more clear

in case that this is good faith and you're misunderstanding me - I'm explicitly saying in that post/thought that you have been around to criticize arguments, which is my impression of what you've been doing whenever you've been engaged in thread. I take it you feel the implication is that you aren't doing anything. I never meant to make that claim or imply that, rather the claim is that you aren't proactively pushing your "reads or views", and I think that's a fair assessment. If you disagree or feel that's unfair, I'd challenge you to point out to me where you've recently pushed a novel pooky read or insight that isn't just critiquing somebody else's read or take on things.

[GuiltyLion]

since winning Mayor he's kinda just sat back and mostly criticized other people's arguments or POVs without doing much of expressing his own reads or views.

sorry, I must be forgetting how to read, can you show me where in this post it says you are "not doing anything"?

do you think semantic arguments are actually useful for figuring out alignment?

I mean I think you're misrepping me or at best misunderstanding me, so yeah, this feels like something worth digging into

[GuiltyLion]

i am getting the elimination i want to happen so im not sure what you want me to be doing

like if i thought meowth was town then yea i would be trying to get something else to happen

i currently dont so ????

idk man if meowth is scum and you do something pro town with your night action that will go a long way / possibly render this irrelevant

I'm just saying I don't really see the point to some of the arguments you engage in because they don't seem to lead to you updating your reads in a way that is visible to me

I directly acknowledged that such reads updating may be happening behind the scenes in my original post

[GuiltyLion]

Gimli's entrance felt quite town, would anyone like to dispute?

I agree, even though I disagree with a lot of his takes themselves I got lots of town vibes

Gimli's entrance felt quite town, would anyone like to dispute?

i would but it partially depends on what meowth flips as

would be interested to understand this and somewhat concerned it wasn't really made clear in this post itself - how will meowth flip inform your read of Gimli and why

[GuiltyLion]

Ok let's hear what went down in council PT

If Cakez was a vig shot that was a terrible shot, I am automatically suspicious of whoever thought that was a good idea

Also we need to ask if scum were planning on shooting cop, why did Enchant win

Makes me think Datisi or Ausuka more likely scum

[GuiltyLion]

Pooky didn't offer any pushback to shooting Cakez?

[GuiltyLion]

My towncore is Bingle, UNOwen, Gimli, Furtive, I will support them for council roles. Maybe Dragons too pending a reread

[GuiltyLion]

Pooky didn't offer any pushback to shooting Cakez?

he let me pick, specifically

This is also ??

Why would we let a vig have no accountability for his shot

[GuiltyLion]

And like why would town Pooky ever be happy or willing to defer the shot

[GuiltyLion]

But if you're both town then you don't know Pooky's alignment and he doesn't know yours

So that agreement should not have been mutual and now we're in a situation where scum in either one of you means scum got a free kill

Did you indicate at all in any fashion who you thought you might want to vig prior to Pooky agreeing to that

[GuiltyLion]

I think I might declare for board today

I want on the PT

[GuiltyLion]

furtive so you're under the impression that it was scum Pooky and town LLD?

Without seeing the interaction myself I do think that's more likely cause I can understand why town!LLD would want the shot but I cannot understand why town!Pooky would ever agree to that

[GuiltyLion]

Lol that was my thinking for running for boars

I'm gonna wait to hear what Bingle thinks

[GuiltyLion]

Pooky insists he will never doc Enchant - if scum kill Enchant they're 'throwing' apparently, calls doccing them a big waste.

wait meanwhile in the main thread he's telling me it's a brilliant plan to make Enchant sheriff because scum are forced to kill him? and arguing with me when I point out that scum seem to be fine with Enchant being elected sheriff?

lol

[GuiltyLion]

This never happened, nor was it ever implied that it should happen in the PT by furtive.

hmm I'd like to see what other people in the PT think regarding this

even if furtive didn't say it was obvious to doc the cop, I don't see why he would believe he could get away with lying about that as scum, it doesn't strike me as intentional manipulation even if it's not in the PT

[GuiltyLion]

We'll probably be funding 3 roles today so I'd like people universally town read like either LLD/sheep to be sheriff.

I don't fully townread the bloodbot/sheep slot

but that makes me on board with them being sheriff lol

[GuiltyLion]

I fully expected my slot to be the vig shot just based on how most people seemed to read Ausuka

how did you know there was a vig???

[GuiltyLion]

Bingle are you down2b treasurer

[GuiltyLion]

I disagree Cakez was 0% town, I felt he was pretty town in how he was engaging with the game and expressing his opinions and said as much yesterday. refusing to vote a D1 scum wagon doesn't make you scum.

I do agree scum!LLD probably doesn't need or want to shoot Cakez there. However, I do not understand why town!Pooky would be willing to grant kill power to a player he does not know the alignment of. And I also think Pooky should know Cakez well enough to have seen him as town there.

[GuiltyLion]

mmm sorry xofelf but I think you slipped

I don't think it'd be natural as town in your shoes to assume that vig exists, assume that it was being used D1, and also assume that you would be shot. I think it might have made sense to say "I'm surprised I wasn't vigged" or something more akin to that, but you said you "fully expected" to be "

THE

vig shot" which suggests you had knowledge during the night phase that a vig shot was happening.

[GuiltyLion]

mmm maybe Pooky is town and it's furtive/xofelf

maybe the reason Ausuka wasn't having fun was she was being heavily suspected and she didn't feel comfortable with the way furtive was defending her

[GuiltyLion]

LLD mayor, Pooky Council member, me treasurer? I think I'd be happy with that. And then putting someone reasonably town in Sheriff, because we can be reasonably sure they don't die?

maybe can we make Pooky sheriff instead of council member since UNOwen is already declared for council?

I'm not 100% sold that xofelf's slip spews Pooky town, they could just have been still just trying to pretend they didn't already know who was getting vigged, but I do think it makes it a lot more likely. furtive scum would 100% lock in Pooky town though

[GuiltyLion]

gosh what if it was Datisi/Ausuka both scum jumping for sheriff role after all

poor Alisae sitting there now like how on earth do I salvage this lol

[GuiltyLion]

furtive so you're under the impression that it was scum Pooky and town LLD?

Without seeing the interaction myself I do think that's more likely cause I can understand why town!LLD would want the shot but I cannot understand why town!Pooky would ever agree to that

r u asking why would town!pooky decide to sheep LLD?

it's a lot more than "sheeping" when you grant unilateral kill power to another player

[GuiltyLion]

pooky I think it's possible you and I just have different ideas about how much we should trust other people but I see your point

now get caught up to the part where xofelf slips and furtive starts immediately defending it

[GuiltyLion]

I fully expected my slot to be the vig shot just based on how most people seemed to read Ausuka, and still read me. So I was surprised that it was cakez.

[GuiltyLion]

assuming xofelf did slip in the way that I believe they did, I'm always going for furtive next, to me his reaction vibes strongly of agenda posting. he expressed full confidence that it wasn't a slip (2127), then hedged a little bit while still defending ("could" explain it - 2120) and then snarked at me when I started speculating about whether Ausuka scum and her attitude around not having fun during his fight with LLD (over how she was treating Ausuka) implicates him (2123).

in a little bit I'll go back and dig through what the latest trajectory on his read of Ausuka/xof was, if it's anything less than full townread then I don't think it makes sense for town!him to immediately assume it wasn't a slip instead of at least entertaining the idea.

[GuiltyLion]

I don't like the slip argument at all and I think furtive is already out of his scum range by coming to this thread pissed off and then having misinterpreted a few things in the hood etc. it's all furtive things and not scummy furtive things. his scum game is more tied together and less tripping over himself, and he does have an extremely good point that not doccing enchant was bad.

1) can you explain why you don't think it's a slip? Why would xofelf be "expecting" to get shot if they're town and don't know the JOAT abilities?

2) you realize the slip argument isn't contingent on furtive being scum, right? Like yah I personally think his quick defensiveness around it is scummy but there can be worlds where xof is scum and furtive is town. This post reads to me like you think furtive being town makes the slip argument less likely and I don't think that's true at all. I am honestly thinking we should deathtunnel xof over this and I'd like you on board with that, even if we disagree on furtive. What's your read on Ausuka/xof otherwise?

3) why is making the "extremely good point" that Enchant should have been docced something that is less likely to come from scum furtive? I don't see how that's alignment indicative

[GuiltyLion]

1) how would it be a slip if everyone is talking about a vig in the thread? it makes no sense idk why you're pushing people with that line of reasoning

see, this tells me you're not understanding it

xofelf said they "FULLY EXPECTED" to be "THE" vig shot. The use past tense of "expected" combined with confident assertion that a vig shot exists is the slip. It says that xofelf was thinking they were going to be shot last night. A townie would not be thinking with certainty that a vig shot exists last night, and if they were

speculating

about that they would use a past hypothetical tense, like "I

WOULD HAVE

expected" to be shot. Not "

fully expecting

".

Read xofelf's original post again and think about the fact that nobody who wasn't in the council PT should have been aware that there was a plan to use the vig. That's the slip. It's not just "talking about a vig lel" like you've phrased it here.

I will consider your other two answers to my questions.

[GuiltyLion]

xofelf wrote that, everybody knew about the vig shot and who was shot

but why would xofelf have "FULLY EXPECTED" to be shot??

they weren't talking about how they were feeling on D2.

they were talking about how they were feeling on N1.

am I not making this clear or something? I don't understand what you're missing or what I'm not communicating effectively

[GuiltyLion]

like in my mind, this is one of the more slam dunk scum slips I've seen in a long time so I'm kinda flummoxed people are not seeing it and that I've had to explain it multiple times. I would have thought it was immediately obvious on reading their post

[GuiltyLion]

declare: Board of Elections

I think Gimli is a wolf

I want to hear more about this

[GuiltyLion]

also @pooky I agree with you I think furtive is scrambling and has been ever since xof slipped

[GuiltyLion]

so you think xof didn't slip, but still think they're scum?

or if you've come around and you now think xof did slip, then there would have to be scum on the council.

why is alisae scum?

[GuiltyLion]

I think you're a townie

either way I think the scum team is exactly alisae, sleepykrew and xofelf and the game is over

that would mean no scum on n1 council

I don't think Datisi was bussing Ausuka

when was Datisi bussing Ausuka? Datisi was pretty staunchly defending Ausuka throughout?

[GuiltyLion]

If I recall correctly there was a point when both Datisi [...] called Ausuka scum

can you go back and find the post you are thinking of, because I don't see where this happened

[GuiltyLion]

spicy sheriff and mayor elections

SK kinda feels like a better sheriff than sheep to me

at the moment sheep's prodgery is more problematic than SK's

[GuiltyLion]

oh wait I had actually missed sheep's last few posts bottom of page 93

nvm about prodgery I will count that as an attempt to give reads

[GuiltyLion]

I am thinking I will vote

Treasurer - Bingle
Sherriff - Sleepykrew
Mayor - STD
Council Member - UNOwen
Trash Collector - pooky

discuss

[GuiltyLion]

I mean I think both of you are likely town but I think UNOwen is clearly not scum with meowth whereas you did vig a townie

I don't think that really makes you scum at all but if I'm choosing between <5% chance at scum and <10% chance at scum I go with the less than 5%

[GuiltyLion]

I think UNO bussing meowth is extremely possible and the fact that you don't makes me question you

anything is possible. what I am doing is looking at the specific interactions between UNOwen and meowth that lead to UNOwen's scumread on meowth and vote and campaign to eliminate him, and I do not see indicators that it was bussing. If you disagree with that, kindly do more to offer your own perspective and why you think it

is

likely to be bussing, instead of shading me for not considering that it's "extremely possible". I reread their ISOs and can highlight specific posts and interactions that strongly fit a profile of TvS to me if you'd actually like to discuss in depth. I haven't done this because I assumed most people who are looking at their posts would come to the same conclusion, and I was not aware that you think UNOwen is scum and bussed meowth, because you've given no indication of this

[GuiltyLion]

I disagree with your characterization that you "singlehandedly" killed meowth, LLD

it's true that you did not pivot the wagon away from meowth for somebody else, I give credit for that, but I don't understand why you want to downplay UNOwen's responsibility in getting meowth limmed

[GuiltyLion]

Deluded. I started the meowth push

lol you absolutely did not

I don't think meowth's recent list is particularly bad, although I did scumread him earlier.

It's hard to see UNOwen and meowth as aligned at the moment, and I prefer voting UNOwen.

[GuiltyLion]

I don't think meowth's recent list is particularly bad, although I did scumread him earlier.

It's hard to see UNOwen and meowth as aligned at the moment, and I prefer voting UNOwen.

also I want to highlight this, because lmao

[GuiltyLion]

"scumreads" mean jack to me when you vote somewhere else, and you voted the UNOwen counterwagon almost the entire day

[GuiltyLion]

VoteCount 1.4

Unowen [ 4 ]

datisi, meowth, sircakez,

Furtiveglance

,

Save the Dragons [ 2 ]

Bloodb0t, ausuka

Meowth [ 2 ]

unowen

, guiltylion

Ausuka [ 1 ]

Save the dragons

Datisi [ 1 ]

enchant

Not Voting [ 6 ]

LLD, Bingle, Actiondan, Sleepykrew, Herta, Pooky

With 16 alive it takes 9 votes to be executed.

Countdown to deadline: (expired on 2023-02-26 13:22:00)

"started the meowth push"

l m a o like you're joking, right??

[GuiltyLion]

UNOwen can easily be mafia regardless

and I think furtive is still unlikely to be

do you actually think UNOwen is mafia??

"can easily be" is frankly useless way of playing mafia. We're not talking about possibilities, we're talking about probabilities. It's about whether it's likely UNOwen is mafia with meowth, and I say it's

highly

unlikely.

so are you just being contrarian? it feels like regardless of your alignment you have the agenda to be scum MVP this game tbh

[GuiltyLion]

Who was the first person to sus meowth

it literally does not matter when you spent crucial phase of the day voting a larger counterwagon elsewhere

you know what I like to call sussing yet not voting? distancing! scum-scum type interaction!

[GuiltyLion]

frankly I don't truly care who is council member between UNOwen or LLD I think both are town in vast majority of worlds here

if it's better to keep someone with mech knowledge on the council I can switch to LLD, I suppose that is a check on scum!Bingle possibly lying about treasurer info (which I also think is extremely unlikely)

[GuiltyLion]

that's exactly why I like to go all in with a 7/2 offsuit, keep em guessing, you can't be read correctly when you have infinite range

[GuiltyLion]

I need to reboot on my reads from this entire day phase. I didn’t realize furtive outed the vig shot D1 at all, but that definitely makes xofelf’s comment more reasonable.

maaaaan

I don't want to think that this is true because it was making everything make sense, but I think objectively I have to

I agree though that it's weird that xof didn't refer back to that post, if that had been what formed the "I'm going to get shot" idea in their head

I also don't think they've been very townie since being accused but that could be pure tunnel vision

if xof is town honestly I'd probably look in the people that were a bit too insistent that it wasn't a slip - could see myself going for furtive instead frankly after he tried to grab towncred for "sussing" meowth and shaded me for clearing UNOwen despite the fact that on D1 furtive said meowth/UNO didn't look aligned.

[GuiltyLion]

I don't care about being omgus'd I care about rooting out the mafias

can you explain when and why you let go of your original thought that UNOwen/meowth were unaligned? what interactions between them make you think S/S? I'm having trouble understanding how that could be a Real Thought on D1 when overnight you seemingly changed your mind and then felt it was questionable that I came to the same conclusion on D2.

[GuiltyLion]

I've played in HotD and Turing Test with him and he was a lot more emotional in those games. He really wore his heart on his sleeve and posted every random musing that came to mind. In this one he seems to just be pointing out superficially logical points against other players and it's a completely different feel.

hmm I actually don't hate this as a reason to suspect me

but I think I'd like to point out that every game is different, I think I've potentially backed off a bit and dialed it down since the first wave of replace outs. I feel somewhat responsible for Ausuka not having fun / repping out, regardless of whatever her alignment was, so I've tried to reign it in a notch since. also, I do think I have been "heart on my sleeve" many times this game, and we're also still in the early phases of this one imo, despite the large page count it's still only day 2.

I've played in HotD and Turing Test with him and he was a lot more emotional in those games. He really wore his heart on his sleeve and posted every random musing that came to mind. In this one he seems to just be pointing out superficially logical points against other players and it's a completely different feel.

this actually makes lots of sense to me first impression

this stands out worse to me - sheep, did you actually read those games furtive referenced? I don't get how one player's meta case can "make sense" to you if you don't have that shared history. You're just taking furtive's word completely for granted here, about something fairly vague and unquantifiable ("more emotional", posted "random musings").

[GuiltyLion]

You did come in weirdly confident on him

dude you seriously need to stop making posts that contradict your posts/feelings on D1, if you're town it just makes it more difficult to find you

I remember you posted this on D1:

Yeah meowth is scum guys, stop pretending not to know this.

@STD, @GuiltyLion

this implies that you think that STD was NOT confident on meowth in how he presented in thread. So which posts are you referring to when you say he was "weirdly" confident? Did you express that feeling on D1?