Election! | GAME OVER

[Bingle]

I see this started. I don't have time to type a big post and my power keeps going out, but please stop declaring for like 6 hours so I can do my mech shit before it becomes irrelevant.

[Bingle]

Current Candidates

Treasurer[2]

Herta, LLD

Sherriff[3]

Datisi, ausuka, enchant

Mayor[3]

Pookythemagicalbear, guiltylion, sleepykrew

Council Member[2]

meowth, unowen

Trash Collector[1]

sircakez

Board of Election[1]

bloodb0t

Countdown to deadline: (expired on 2023-02-16 13:03:00)

Important out of game mod announcement:
New Bill Watterson book

[Bingle]

DECLARE:VANILLA TOWN

Town?

DECLARE: SHERIFF

owo whats this

No.

I pledge to run a clean campaign to become the mayor of this town.

I am asking for your votes in order to improve the beautiful splendor of our neighborhood.

Mafia will be ruthlessly hunted down.

I have a keen sense of SMELL.

Hm. I have a read on you, is it accurate?

Declare Treasurer

Yes.

am i misunderstanding or is board of elections just kind of useless

It is not useless, but it is low enough use that it is probably a trap.

i promise to townread everyone who votes for me for at least 36 business hours

That's like a year for you isn't it

Pocketed.

@Enchat I said "relatively" more useless

as we just saw in HoD scum sheriff was not a huge problem and was ultimately figured out when they were forced into giving questionable results and eliminated for information.

I don't think a cop shot is that valuable, I think securing a town treasurer and probably mayor/council member is more important than town sheriff. Datisi I'm also curious to hear why that was your choice especially given HoD

What?

i mean scum sheriff might also be able to like mess with future results somehow

i don't think we have any information on what scum powers would be

Hm.

i mean scum sheriff might also be able to like mess with future results somehow

i don't think we have any information on what scum powers would be

Aren't they listed?

Probably not scum theater. If one of these flips scum the other is probably town.

I don't think a cop shot is that valuable, I think securing a town treasurer and probably mayor/council member is more important than town sheriff. Datisi I'm also curious to hear why that was your choice especially given HoD

i feel like your perception of that game is coloured based on the fact you ultimately ended up winning, and you don't notice just how much damage a scum cop did to that game. robbed you out of 2 results (which are essentially 2 straight flips) (or was it 3? i don't remember), blocked you from yeeting scum, almost won the game alone if dannflor hadn't lurked out.

even if such mechanics aren't in play here, a cop in town hands is essentially an extra free flip every cycle (unless they get killed ig). i was honest at the start of HoD when i said that i think it's a massive loss for town if the cop falls into scum hands.

I think it's a matter of perspective, cause my point is that you did all that damage and yet town still was able to bloc together and win, it wasn't enough to carry your team. Presumably any of these roles in scum hands is going to be some degree of bad, but I think it's easier to contain the "bad" with a scum sheriff over the other roles I named. Especially since we have new elections the next day.

Like what's the best case for a town sheriff, a guilty that we trust and flip, right? Otherwise even a clear isn't going to be strictly confirmed info until the sheriff's alignment is resolved. It just doesn't strike me as my number one priority. Don't you think your team in HoD would have done better if you were King and not Cop?

VOTE: GL

I don't understand the predecessor language wrt mayor and council member.

I think it means D2 mayor won't be able to see what ability D1 mayor used nor will they be able to use it?

There are two valid ways to parse it: Either

A) Mayor has a certain number of abilities that can each be used once per game and will be removed from the Role PM after usage.
B) Mayor has a certain number of abilities, any one of which can be used each night. The new mayor will not receive any results or knowledge based on previous nights.

i thought it was public but nothing in the rules says its public however there is a section that says the elected players get a PT so if one of them is mafia then i guess everyone will get to know

Yeah, we can functionally assume scum will know who has what role even outside of that (and the fact that presumably some scum will campaign for roles) because keeping track of who is campaigning for what and how they're viewed is kind of the way scum decide nightkills normally. Our PRs are functionally public information even if they don't get published, which means trying to hide them is just going to make reading the thread more difficult. As such, checking people's vote record is a pretty shit use of our budget.

As an extension of this, we should be giving roles like Sheriff to people who themselves are scummy, because that way scum can't shoot an incredibly towny cop prospect and proverbially kill two witches with one Kansas farmhouse. Ideally, the Sheriff will be the 5th scummiest person in the thread.

[Bingle]

OH SNAP BINGLE WHATS UP I HAVENT SEEN YOU IN FOREVER

I offered to proofread a math textbook for someone and am currently being embarrassed by how little I remember about solving differential equations by hand. Also, I'm down to play in that game you invited me to, can I borrow your time machine?

[Bingle]

I'm going to not campaign for any power roles.
I'd like the towniest of {LLD/Pooks/GL} to be Treasurer.
We should use the sheriff assignation as a pseudovig. I will almost certainly be voting Enchant for Sheriff.
I strongly lean towards no elimination D1 because the level of swing in the setup from the smalltown nature means there likely no extra killing roles and D1 is the best day to skip a lim.
It is possible that role information will change with day phases, so a disagreement between what the roles say isn't necessarily a 1v1.
We likely have enough funding to fully fund ~2 roles or reasonably fund ~3 roles. Those roles should be selected from JOAT/JOAT/COP/TRACKER.

Cakez is vaguely scummy, GL is very scummy, AD is probably town, Pooky still needs to commit to whether or not I'm traditionally able to read Bear, Bloodbot is towny.

[Bingle]

shit. Well, pooky can be town for now.

[Bingle]

Approach to LLD and pooky conversations. Coming in wanting LLD to be JOAT which is high skill high risk of being shot doesn't make a ton of sense if AD is scum WITH LLD. It pairs them too tightly from the word go. Backing down immediately to let LLD go after the Treasurer which arguably should be going to the most reliable town player but also doesn't provide any scum incentive to shoot them without trying to push the issue means AD probably isn't scum with LLD town, as he'd want LLD to pick up a power that was better worth shooting at.

Similarly, the townread of Pooky for the obvious and untenable mechstrat is useless noise, but useless noise that doesn't really serve any purpose. It doesn't look particularly towny on the face of it, but does seem like the kind of thing that would be a surface level reaction, and sharing it unabashedly makes me think AD isn't too worried about how he's seen.

[Bingle]

Someone respond to my most recent posts other than Bloodbot agreeing they're dumb

I was gonna quote your enchant tr with an 'enhance' gif, but I don't know how to gif on the new site yet. Does that count?

[Bingle]

I'm underwhelmed by Bingle posts and takes

Why am I "very scummy"?

You're approaching the mech from a perspective of "How does scum benefit" instead of "How does town benefit" and I think it's a perspective slip. You're smart enough to know that we can use the threat of investigations to kill off scummy slots via scumkill, and yet have said nothing about that. You're playing obtuse about the actual power behind cop shots. Your "I want to 1v1 Pooky over mayor" bit feels lamist af.

Take your pick.

[Bingle]

Someone respond to my most recent posts other than Bloodbot agreeing they're dumb

I was gonna quote your enchant tr with an 'enhance' gif, but I don't know how to gif on the new site yet. Does that count?

That doesn't really count - do you agree? What would the 'enhance' gif get across?

There is a tag for gifs, but I don't think I've successfully used it yet

I would like you to talk more about that read because I don't see what you're seeing.

[Bingle]

Oh, cool. Old school manual img tags still work.

[Bingle]

why these 3?

I expect they'll die soon if town.

[Bingle]

irrelevant

Meowth irrelephant alt confirmed.

[Bingle]

The idea of putting high priority scumkills in roles that don't give the scum anything if killed but still have a larger impact on town performance? You're welcome.

[Bingle]

Bingle brings the cool and the muscle.

I'm a public alt of Jingle, named and associated with Binky Barnes by FakeGod.

[Bingle]

Does anyone else think it's weird that guiltylion is posting the mod notes?

[Bingle]

That, sir, is a garbage post.

[Bingle]

one thing im curious about is whether joats should claim what they used or even if there should be some system for using them. like assume strongest shot first or alphabetical order or something. i definitely think we should keep the remaining roles hidden but it might not be good to claim a doc shot was used. but we also want to coordinate somehow? maybe it's best to just leave it to chance.

My tinfoil theory is that the various JOAT powers will have different activation costs and so which one gets used will be largely a budgetary issue.

I don’t think hiding joat/sheriff identities is likely to work or even be worth our time, but that doesn’t even matter. We can assuredly use the relatively useless board member to funnel information such as costs and available powers from the pt to the main thread, even if people don’t share the thought that the pr pt will almost certainly be infiltrated.

[Bingle]

I'm going to not campaign for any power roles.

why

Two reasons. I don’t think I’ll need access to the pr pt to get the information I need to organize things and I’d rather use the chance to develop reads on other people.

[Bingle]

ok sorry whatever I'll just afk until the deadline

What do you think about GL and Cakes?

[Bingle]

why so much slander for the Board of Elections they are protecting democracy

Because lying about their votes is a high risk low reward tactic for scum and thus unlikely to actually happen and in order to get useful results the board member needs to find a scum player who is going to lie AND figure out which election they’re lying about.

Also, they’re not protecting democracy; they’re explicitly abusing their power to get individual citizens voting histories in an attempt to use it against them. It is quite literally the mafia equivalent of showing up to a polling place with a baseball bat and beating up people who don’t vote for your candidate.

[Bingle]

I'm going to not campaign for any power roles.

why

Two reasons. I don’t think I’ll need access to the pr pt to get the information I need to organize things and I’d rather use the chance to develop reads on other people.

what

I don’t need to be in the hood.

I’d rather see how other people use the powers and use that to read them than have the power myself.

I’m not sure how that’s unclear.

[Bingle]

nono who is the pirate turtle

Bingle

How dare you, I’m not a turtle. I’m a bulldog. I think.

[Bingle]

it might be better for us to just vote for who is the towniest among us and just put up 6 candidates only so we dont have to go thru the whole hidden vote bullshit

that's hyper bad we just nominate somenoe to be cop each night and watch them die?

what

if we only nominate one person for sherrif, that person auto wins sherrif, so cops know who sherrif is, right?

lady is smarter than me xD gamebreaking, much??
i.e one candidate per role,, confirmed power role, removes uncertainty?
at least, will remove invisible mafia ballot tampering, and further, chosen candidate wifom??
not smart enough to make logical conclusion atm,, offering "food for thought" out to smarter town, to discuss (hint hint, lion)

I can’t decide if this post is just awkward or scum.

[Bingle]

i agree, and don't exactly follow how thats relevant to my post

oh i think i see what you are saying
i was referring to the joat abilities left over as what should be hidden, not who is what

What I’m saying is that we should have no issues communicating what the joats can actually achieve to the thread at large and then make the decision of what power gets used or if that decision is made based on how much they cost and what they are. It’s a decision that we’ll have more information on during the elim phase, so we should worry about it in the elim phase.

[Bingle]

No I get that. It's the thing about being a PR is going to take a bunch of time. I don't see it that way.

Well that’s good, because that’s not a thing I said. It’s not about how much time being a pr is going to take. It’s that I think the information “cakez tracked lld to x” is going to be more useful to me than “I tracked lld to x”

[Bingle]

i have no significant read on cakes. he's really enthusiastic about trash i guess which I can appreciate

How do you take that he's the only candidate for tracker and everyone seems okay with that, but all he's doing is posting memes about garbage?

[Bingle]

I'm underwhelmed by Bingle posts and takes

Why am I "very scummy"?

You're approaching the mech from a perspective of "How does scum benefit" instead of "How does town benefit" and I think it's a perspective slip. You're smart enough to know that we can use the threat of investigations to kill off scummy slots via scumkill, and yet have said nothing about that. You're playing obtuse about the actual power behind cop shots. Your "I want to 1v1 Pooky over mayor" bit feels lamist af.

Take your pick.

Could you point out where that might have come into play in these mech arguments, and the scummy point where GL neglects to mention this?

I can't really point out where GL didn't do a thing, no. It's a bit of a BOP read, in that I expect GL to recognize that scum will probably be able to figure out who the cop is out of a pool of three, even if it isn't guaranteed public knowledge AND the neighborhood isn't infiltrated (roughly a 12% chance on D1). I also expect that GL would see the value of forcing a null-scum slot to be sheriff given the context that he was arguing a scum sheriff isn't all that scary for town (see early conversation with Dats).

Instead, I saw absolutely no attempt to slow down the process of declaring candidacy at the beginning of the game, despite that the roles can each only be run for by three candidates. I would have expected something like my opening post (even if mine was too late to be effective).

[Bingle]

To clarify, I don't think that all Cakez has been doing is campaigning for Tracker, but rather that that's how I interpreted your response wrt him. I think the LLD/Cakez interaction is probably the most promising back and forth we've seen so far.

[Bingle]

1) tracker isn't really a great role in a large game most of the time so it feels intuitive that most people wouldn't care for it

I agree that tracker isn't particularly strong D1 in this game, although late game tracker may well be a full cop if we don't suck hard.

I disagree that most people would internalize that immediately.

[Bingle]

you dont agree revealing all the joat abilities d1 is bad?

Not at all. We have persistent power roles. Scum can't kill the doc and get rid of the doc power permanently, so hiding that there is a doc doesn't really serve as much of a purpose.

The reasons opens are more townsided than the associated closed setup would be isn't just because of the clearing nature of claims in opens, but also because town simply has more information to go on.

And considering I've reviewed basically all of shea's games for the last 3 years I'm probably the only person who CAN confidently setup spec a shea game.

[Bingle]

Why then is your focus on me, who questioned the players who leapt at the opportunity to try to be cop, instead of the actual players themselves? Do you think Datisi or Ausuka are traditionally scummy, limbaity players? Are you not frustrated that they've essentially forced your hand at voting Enchant for sheriff? Is that not a pro-scum agenda under your established belief system?

I wouldn't say that Datisi or ausuka are traditionally scummy or limbaity, no. I am not happy that enchant is pretty much our only option for a decent sheriff, no. I don't particularly think that Datisi or Ausuka is mech oriented the same way I remember you being, so I don't think the grab for sheriff is particularly scummy from them, and in fact I'm taking it as very slight evidence of the opposite. A non mech oriented player would be inclined to think jumping after the Sheriff role would be a good way to draw attention, imo.

And my scumread of you isn't that "most players" would understand why manipulation of declarations is a powerful town tool, but that YOU would understand why manipulation of declarations is a powerful town tool.

[Bingle]

how much history is there between bingle/guiltylion? more specifically, is there any history that would make sense for why bingle thinks guiltylion is this sorta mech genius as town or whatever?

We played together fairly regularly back when I used to play mafia. I have not played mafia (or any hidden information game) in a year and a half assuming I'm remembering dates right.

[Bingle]

i have no significant read on cakes. he's really enthusiastic about trash i guess which I can appreciate

How do you take that he's the only candidate for tracker and everyone seems okay with that, but all he's doing is posting memes about garbage?

This is a hot misrep

read two posts down.

[Bingle]

@Bingle - did you miss this, were you going to address it? It gets at the fundamental issue I had with your post, namely that your argument for me being scum here consists of constructing an idea of what Town!GL Would Or Should Be Doing, and then saying I'm scummy because I'm not doing that. you make a ton of assumptions with your point
- we can control who we elect to be cop
- scum are likely to fear kill the cop
- therefore, the best use of the cop role is to put someone scummy in there
and biggest of all,
- town!GL would think all of this is true,

and agree with it and behave accordingly

then saying you think I'm scummy cause that didn't happen.

this is not generally how to find mafia, with these types of counterfactuals ("town [x] should do this, they didn't, so they're mafia"), especially when you're not laying out what a hypothetical scum benefit or agenda is to my actions is either. Rather this is how you sell someone as scum, and it feels disingenuous as hell.

Your other points are bad too. I'm approaching mech from "how scum benefits", sure, because I want to minimize the damage scum can do. It's also silly to hand wave that away as NOT thinking about how town benefits - is the implication here that a more pro-town approach to mechanics is going "ooh cop shiny!", or not even questioning players who did that? why?

also noteworthy that you choose to believe I am "playing obtuse" about cop power rather than just disagreeing with you, or hell, even just

being wrong

. Nice way to insert a nefarious motive where none exists.

I did miss it originally, but answered last page.

The playing obtuse bit was your back and forth with Dats where you said:

I think it's a matter of perspective, cause my point is that you did all that damage and yet town still was able to bloc together and win, it wasn't enough to carry your team. Presumably any of these roles in scum hands is going to be some degree of bad, but I think it's easier to contain the "bad" with a scum sheriff over the other roles I named. Especially since we have new elections the next day.

Like what's the best case for a town sheriff, a guilty that we trust and flip, right?

Otherwise even a clear isn't going to be strictly confirmed info until the sheriff's alignment is resolved.

It just doesn't strike me as my number one priority. Don't you think your team in HoD would have done better if you were King and not Cop?

It came across as downplaying how reliable the cop results would be in a way that reinforced my belief that you specifically would understand cop usage in smalltowns and smalltown like setups.

How do you think I should go about questioning you about things I think have a clear scum motivation behind them if what I'm doing is "assigning you a nefarious motive"?

[Bingle]

I'd be interested in your thoughts about there being no counter campaign for tracker, as well, cakez.

[Bingle]

how much history is there between bingle/guiltylion? more specifically, is there any history that would make sense for why bingle thinks guiltylion is this sorta mech genius as town or whatever?

We played together fairly regularly back when I used to play mafia. I have not played mafia (or any hidden information game) in a year and a half assuming I'm remembering dates right.

Hm. Just went back to dig up old links for context, and my memory was wrong. Apparently I've only played with GL twice since I made the switch to playing as Bingle. Once in 2020 and once in 2021.

[Bingle]

viewtopic.php?t=88281&hilit=guilty+lion
viewtopic.php?t=82769&hilit=guilty+lion

[Bingle]

Thanks...?

[Bingle]

@Skrew

lady is smarter than me xD gamebreaking, much??
i.e one candidate per role,, confirmed power role, removes uncertainty?
at least, will remove invisible mafia ballot tampering, and further, chosen candidate wifom??
not smart enough to make logical conclusion atm,, offering "food for thought" out to smarter town, to discuss (hint hint, lion)

The reason this post is notable is that it's a townread of LLD for something Pooky said that LLD then disagreed with because apparently what Pooky said was brilliant, and then a suggestion that GL should talk about it. There's the level of awkward of Nono's other posts, and then there's that. I didn't specify why it was awkward because, you know, I thought it was pretty obvious that townreading someone for something somebody else saidwas pretty obvious if I called attention to it. That LLD was saying the complete opposite thing also pretty obvious. And all of that was literally quoted in Nono's post.

I legitimately am not sure if this is actually scummy, or wrapping around to the too scummy to be scum spectrum, but I am definitely interested in hearing thoughts about it.

[Bingle]

I think Bingle should go for trash collection, seems weird to me that he doesn't like how no one is competing, but he is refraining from competing.

You're putting words in my mouth. I think that SirCakez not having competition means one of two things: either Cakez is scum or scum isn't worried about being tracked. The latter means to me that scum is more likely to be people who think early trackers aren't as useful, which is an interesting thing to look at in the early game. I actually quite like that no one is competing with Cakez, because it's very interesting from a game state analysis point of view.

I do think that in a vacuum tracker is a role that would be easy to go after as scum, but that's because the role is completely useless for scum. (There is absolutely no reason a town PR shouldn't out their results the day after they act.)

[Bingle]

@Skrew

lady is smarter than me xD gamebreaking, much??
i.e one candidate per role,, confirmed power role, removes uncertainty?
at least, will remove invisible mafia ballot tampering, and further, chosen candidate wifom??
not smart enough to make logical conclusion atm,, offering "food for thought" out to smarter town, to discuss (hint hint, lion)

The reason this post is notable is that it's a townread of LLD for something Pooky said that LLD then disagreed with because apparently what Pooky said was brilliant, and then a suggestion that GL should talk about it. There's the level of awkward of Nono's other posts, and then there's that. I didn't specify why it was awkward because, you know, I thought it was pretty obvious that townreading someone for something somebody else saidwas pretty obvious if I called attention to it. That LLD was saying the complete opposite thing also pretty obvious. And all of that was literally quoted in Nono's post.

I legitimately am not sure if this is actually scummy, or wrapping around to the too scummy to be scum spectrum, but I am definitely interested in hearing thoughts about it.

what even !!
*sees nono post*

“hmm yes,,,,, it's a townread of LLD for something Pooky said that LLD then disagreed with because apparently what Pooky said was brilliant, and then a suggestion that GL should talk about it,,,,, pretty obvious that townreading someone for something somebody else saidwas pretty obvious if I called attention to it. That LLD was saying the complete opposite thing also pretty obvious”

instead of “Nono thinks lady has good idea”

and pssttt,,,,, listen,,, i never said I townread lady (I don’t) xD

rolling on the floor, logic is dead xD

peace v

Pooky: It’s probably optimal to leash declarations for accountability purposes.

LLD: that’ll just get the cop shot.

Nono: lady had a great idea to leash declarations. GAMEBREAKING!

Tell me what about that I’m misreading.

[Bingle]

Mod uses comic sans we are doomed


I already voted and applied for fast election btw

Comic Sans MS gets a bad rap. It’s not formal enough. Too ‘cartoony’. There have even been campaigns to ban it. Whether these criticisms are light-hearted or serious - and if they are serious, that says more about the critic than the typeface - doesn’t matter because, however you slice it, Comic Sans isn’t given the time of day.

However, it’s the recommended typeface of the British Dyslexia Foundation, and given that 6.3 million people in the UK (roughly 10% of the population) have the condition, it seems a weird thing to hate on. This Global Accessibility Awareness Day, I’m going to defend Comic Sans.

Hear me out. First of all, it’s highly accessible - in more than one sense of the word. When it comes to legibility, the individual characters are really easy to pick out, given that each has its own flow and flavour. For someone who might not be able to separate the glyphs on an ‘a’ from a ‘g’, that’s massively helpful. The typography is also spacious, giving readers the chance to distinguish the letters. There’s a reason why it’s so often used in schools - it’s easy to read!

https://www.creativebrief.com/bite/defe ... reness-day

But what about wingdings?

[Bingle]

i think we should have consensus on who should win each role - if our votes are divided it makes it too easy for scum to just do hidden shenanigans

Except that this (scum doing hidden shenanigans) is something we should absolutely be encouraging.

[Bingle]

I would also like to share that I just today realized that 18 > 16, and my entire reasoning for not picking a role to campaign for was flawed from the outset.

It's apparently not just ODE solving I've managed to forget.

[Bingle]

y'all better fuckin vote and submit fast election or im gonna cry

I'm gonna submit a request that Shea not end the election phase until November.

[Bingle]

can you explain the Optimal Strategy for the (not) hidden voting pls

Not until the election phase is over.

[Bingle]

i think datisi + ausuka + guiltylion + ????

Fucking ????

???? is always scum.

[Bingle]

having a read doesnt require vocalizing it in the thread, but since you asked nicely...
222 is fake. bingle attempted to engage on the point right after and there was no followup. then 424 is noncommittal bs. plus i find the whole "make me commitee member but im not serious about it" act to be super awkward.

Eh. I don't think Uno not following up on the question is fake. They asked about a read I expressed, I answered. If they had follow up questions they would have asked them regardless.

I think it's more likely that the explanation satisfied them if they were town or they didn't think they could get me limmed over it if they were scum.

The ISO is fluffy and short, but it's still super early for that to actually be an issue.

[Bingle]

@pooky and bingle what about the other stuff i pointed out

I feel like everything else you've pointed out is summed up with "The iso is fluffy and short."

I don't particularly scumread short, fluffy isos until short fluffy isos are the exception, rather than the norm. Don't really think uno's done much to have a strong read either way.

[Bingle]

you're like asking me how season 1 of a show ends when i've only seen 2 episodes.

the writing is p bad so far so how would i know

maybe they meet in the council pt and suddenly flip reads on each other after a heart to heart over some drinks in a hot tub

Turns out Bruce Willis was dead the whole time.

[Bingle]

let's say that's the team and our plan was to hardcore distance between me and whoever wins cop

how does that cop then justify not checking me

what's the end goal to that script

?

Doesn't this question kind of answer itself?

Like, I don't think it's your plan, but if your plan WAS "I'm going to get a teammate elected cop and then bus them for cred" why would they not give a fake clear on you?

It makes you a less likely cop target while they're alive and you're already planning on outliving them anyway.

[Bingle]

1) if scum dont get either joat, they dont know what the joats do - so they dont know if they can take a shot on someone or whatever
2) having prs be controlled by town is good because i think its self explanatory - a town tracker can get guilties on scum, a scum tracker will just claim to have missed or some bullshit
3) cop guilties/innos are unreliable coming from town cop rather than scum cop
4) the treasurer can lie about how much gold they have and fuck with everyone else's money

like i think its self explanatory why we should try to get town to get the PRS

The disconnect is after this point.

We should attempt to get PRs into the hands of town, yes. The takeaway from that is that you should pick people you think are town for the options. There are reasons to do otherwise (for example, voting enchant for cop because you don't think scum will want to shoot town enchant; voting GL for JOAT because you think forcing accountability for GL's night actions might help make a solid read there and you're not at all confident in your scumlean there), but overall we're better off if we manage 6 town PRs.

We still shouldn't be worried about scum trying to sneakily steal PRs from town with shenanigans.

[Bingle]

My ballot is thus, btw:

Treasurer LLD
Sherriff enchant
Mayor guiltylion
Council Member meowth
Trash Collector sircakez
Board of Election bloodb0t

[Bingle]

also if the leading candidate with 7 is being voted for by 4 scum votes - it is something we can look at later down the line since votes are public in this system

This is a good argument for non hidden voting, which we should 100% do. This is not a good argument for manipulating the voting process to prevent scum from manipulating the voting process.

[Bingle]

doesn't that give scum the most info

Technically, yes. It gives scum all the info that isn't really helpful to scum. It also gives TOWN all the info that isn't really helpful to scum, but is helpful to town.

Dats already asked why this is true, and as I said then, I'll explain why this is best after the election happens.

[Bingle]

I'm reasonably sure pooky is town, btw.

[Bingle]

strikes me like it's meant more to grandstand for towncred rather than direct conversation in a meaningful direction

I agree that it's a pretty nothingburger statement, but I didn't think it was really grandstandy in that I thought it was very obviously nothingburger.

I don't think scum posts that looking for towncred because I don't think anyone thinks that is worth townreading. Its the equivalent of walking into a game and saying "Hey, we should probably use our votes to decide the elimination."

[Bingle]

cant scum just lie about who they voted for

This is the reason to post your ballot before the election phase is over, yes.

Faking a ballot is harder when you have less information.

[Bingle]

We should probably use our votes to decide the elimination

Locktown for developing such a new and exciting breaking strategy. I genuinely don't know how I could possibly hope to win a game of mafia without your tactical brilliance guiding me.

[Bingle]

I mean why wouldn't we want to track votes if it helps us catch scum? Sure people can lie about who they voted for but the truth comes out in the results, and we have a role that can check up on it.

GL thought your post might be performative. I disagree because I think it's too surface level to be performative. We both agree that yes, holding people accountable for their votes is useful in catching scum.

[Bingle]

Mayor guiltylion

I'm rereading still but could you tell me about where in this thread your read necessarily must have flipped?

@Datisi Enchant still scum to you, yes?

It didn't, I indirectly answered the why right before posting that ballot.

[Bingle]

We should attempt to get PRs into the hands of town, yes. The takeaway from that is that you should pick people you think are town for the options. There are reasons to do otherwise (for example, voting enchant for cop because you don't think scum will want to shoot town enchant;

voting GL for JOAT because you think forcing accountability for GL's night actions might help make a solid read there and you're not at all confident in your scumlean there

), but overall we're better off if we manage 6 town PRs.

[Bingle]

@pooky, gl- I've been nursing a tinfoil for a while now because it's a cheeky scumfuck move I totally would have encouraged my teammates to pull and I want your thoughts. Dats/Ausuka/Enchant team all yolo declared for Sheriff to completely negate town's chances of having a cop and force a scum member into the PT.

[Bingle]

I just put my garbage on the street. If you could pick it up that'd be great, thanks.

[Bingle]

bingle trying to steal my idea and claiming it as his own smh

Pooky, I have this thought where we make a game and you have to stay up for like a week posting "This is a parachute" at random times and slowly the player base breaks down into a massive ball of paranoia and then we win game of the year. Thoughts?

[Bingle]

Oh, right. Thanks for reminding me.

@Nono

@Skrew

lady is smarter than me xD gamebreaking, much??
i.e one candidate per role,, confirmed power role, removes uncertainty?
at least, will remove invisible mafia ballot tampering, and further, chosen candidate wifom??
not smart enough to make logical conclusion atm,, offering "food for thought" out to smarter town, to discuss (hint hint, lion)

The reason this post is notable is that it's a townread of LLD for something Pooky said that LLD then disagreed with because apparently what Pooky said was brilliant, and then a suggestion that GL should talk about it. There's the level of awkward of Nono's other posts, and then there's that. I didn't specify why it was awkward because, you know, I thought it was pretty obvious that townreading someone for something somebody else saidwas pretty obvious if I called attention to it. That LLD was saying the complete opposite thing also pretty obvious. And all of that was literally quoted in Nono's post.

I legitimately am not sure if this is actually scummy, or wrapping around to the too scummy to be scum spectrum, but I am definitely interested in hearing thoughts about it.

what even !!
*sees nono post*

“hmm yes,,,,, it's a townread of LLD for something Pooky said that LLD then disagreed with because apparently what Pooky said was brilliant, and then a suggestion that GL should talk about it,,,,, pretty obvious that townreading someone for something somebody else saidwas pretty obvious if I called attention to it. That LLD was saying the complete opposite thing also pretty obvious”

instead of “Nono thinks lady has good idea”

and pssttt,,,,, listen,,, i never said I townread lady (I don’t) xD

rolling on the floor, logic is dead xD

peace v

Pooky: It’s probably optimal to leash declarations for accountability purposes.

LLD: that’ll just get the cop shot.

Nono: lady had a great idea to leash declarations. GAMEBREAKING!

Tell me what about that I’m misreading.

[Bingle]

Gl, could you summarize your experience with Nono?

[Bingle]

Has anyone endorsed GL?

Looks like mayor is between pooky and SK.

I wanted gl because I think making him choose which joat ability is good for town will make him explain his thought processes in a way that will help me get a better read on him. Dunno if anyone else has made an argument either way, but that’s my two cents.

[Bingle]

(i totally failed to actually convey this, but i'd like you to explain why you're thinking that)

I’m glad you asked for this, because I feel the same way as I thought Datisi meant the original post.

Like, I don’t think it’s impossible for Dan to be scum here, but his posting style and contributions make me enjoy his presence in the game and I can admit I’d be reluctant to lim there without a strong reason to.

[Bingle]

I’m mobile right now, but I’ll throw together a reads list later today. If someone is up to busy work I’d appreciate a pseudo vote count.

[Bingle]

We can change positions tomorrow right?

Yeah, we should start over at election phase after the night phase happens.

[Bingle]

By "should" do you mean you think we do?

You mean campaign (declare) phase?

In absence of strange mechanics, yes. There could feasibly be an election skipping mechanic on a joat, for example.

[Bingle]

Right, mechpost.

Treasurer is most likely going to follow one of three routes: large initial budget with limited recouping of spent funds, constant budget, or small initial budget with the ability to save over multiple phases. The prs should claim ability costs and LLD should claim overall budget. LLD should not publicly expose how funding is going to be granted and instead should make that determination privately.

The JoaTs should claim their abilities in the PT, then someone from the pt should reveal all the joat abilities in the main thread without saying which joat has which ability. That way scum trying to murder joats has to wager whether they are shooting the right joat if we somehow have a pure pt.

We might be in a position where we want to no elim here. That largely depends on the joat powers.

Joats should try to use a power tonight, even if 0% funded and using a garbage power. This is to determine both how the inheritance of joats functions and to see if we can leash disproportionately powerful scum powers (vig) to prevent their late game use by scum.

[Bingle]

My ballot is thus, btw:

Treasurer LLD
Sherriff enchant
Mayor guiltylion
Council Member meowth
Trash Collector sircakez
Board of Election bloodb0t

[Bingle]

Reason for ballot publication: if say 9 people say they voted for cakez and 5 said they voted for furtive, but furtive won tracker, we know at least 2 scum are in the group that said they’d vote furtive AND that scum wanted furtive for tracker. Note: this wouldn’t make furtive scum, it could easily be a ploy to frame furtive or to make cakez look towny.

That means we should focus on the people who “voted” someone who didn’t win an election they “should” have, especially if the election wasn’t a particularly close one.

TLDR, scum rigging an election is actually the best case scenario for town because it can confirm at least x scum in a relatively small pool. As such someone should grab the votes to make sure they line up with what was stated.

[Bingle]

Incidentally, that’s why I’m pretty strongly reading pooky as town. I think he knew what he was doing and was trying to convince scum they should try to fuck the election, to up the odds we caught them doing it. I cottoned on to this a little bit late to help bait the trap bc a full on reversal would have been counterproductive by making scum suspicious of the reasoning.

[Bingle]

Could someone clue me in on the hotd sheriff thing?

[Bingle]

I also had a real bad night last night so I'm gonna take some time for me today but I'll check in.

S'all good. Take care of yourself, LLD.

[Bingle]

furtive vibes right now

Pictures of scummers IRL are supposed to be posted in the FWAN forum.

[Bingle]

also whats your read of whats taking place in the sheriff elections

do you think scum sent any1 to the sheriff elections? who?

I think that sheriff is a high value role and scum would likely either prioritize getting the role heavily or completely stay out of it to make us bark up a tree that had no squirrels.

I don't particularly suspect Dat's or ausuka's sheriff play as a scum strategy, because it was very half assed. There's the possibility that they didn't try hard for the role because they knew that they could fall back on a scumbuddy getting it, but that presupposes multiple scum in the sheriff pool which despite being a silly thing that would be fun isn't something I think most scumteams would actually go for. I do think it's odd that enchant won that race so handily. There was very little pushback to making enchant cop, despite that enchant isn't really a consensus for anything readwise, which lowkey makes me think enchant scum might be a thing here or that the pool might be triple town. For obvious reasons, we shouldn't be limming enchant today.

[Bingle]

Thanks, dats. I'll take a look later.

That kind of brings the scum cop discussion from earlier into a bit more clarity.

For reference, how long of a site break did the game cause?

[Bingle]

Thoughts on the playerlist, roughly organized from town to scum. I'll probably be on late tonight if anyone has any questions for me, but I'm gonna go conquer Scandinavia and solder magnetic sensors into a robot now, potentially in reverse order.



Town?

Bloodb0t - Strongest townread at the moment. Bursts of activity, but all of them seem to be aimed at solving the game. The internal logic seems consistent with investigating, and when they post I get the sense that they are actually trying to work something out.
Furtiveglance - I particularly like how unapologetic furtive is about his reads. I might be biased, but something in the way he's sticking by reads on me, enchant, and dats under pressure despite being seemingly unable to elaborate strikes me as towny.
Meowth - I've come to the thread to see meowth questioning the things I wanted questioned. There's a low level mindmeld that isn't triggering paranoia, so I'm content to just call this town for now.
pookythemagicalbear - Not nearly as confident as I was with the confirmation that pooky wasn't playing 5d chess up in here, but I'm still on townbear wagon at the moment. I don't see a reason for pooky to disabuse me of the notion that he was gambiting if he were scum and I don't see anything to contradict my early gut pings, so the bear is welcome to continue sailing on my pirate ship.

Players?

To save time, most of these are just: I don't really know what to think of them at the moment. I already talked about why I think Dats/Ausuka are less likely to be scum based on the game state surrounding sheriff, but LLD is the towniest of the lot from the Ausuka/Cakez backdown. My experience with scum LLD is that she tends to want to control the thread early and establish a lot of thread dominance, which I just haven't seen here. This is crazy stale in that she's been thread absent as a whole and the games that spring to mind are years old, but she definitely didn't back down in AliPine despite emotional manipulation and going up against GIce, nor did she back down in the anime RPG game where I rolled IC of all things and she got into a heated blow for blow with fferycabd.
Lady Lambdadelta
Datisi
Ausuka
SleepyKrew
ActionDan
Herta


Scum?
Unowen - This would be a null read except for the helpful bit where unowen reassured me I'd played with GL. (I figured that out, btw, apparently those were the only two games where someone called GuiltyLion Guilty Lion and I didn't catch that I'd typo'd while searching my topics.) It came across as IIOA and buddying. Maybe Unowen is just a nice guy, but definitely triggered all of my paranoia alarm bells about being seen as useful while not actually progressing the game and just assuming my motivation to be pure.
Enchant - Legitimately there have been games where as the moderator I didn't have confidence that enchant was town, despite sending the role PM myself. With that said, this read is solely based around the way the sheriff race played out. People who townread enchant and people who nothing read enchant and people who scumread enchant all voted enchant to be cop and there didn't seem to be any backlash to that at all. Scum was either so convinced they couldn't stop it, or they were completely fine with enchant being a cop, and I'm not convinced of the former being the case, given how polarized that slot actually is.
GuiltyLion - I'm very afraid of being wrong on this read, because I don't remember GL being an easy read for me, but I can't shake my fear that there's just something missing from him here that would be there as town. I talked a little bit about the small things I'd expect a town GL to pickup on. I will note that I'm pretty sure this scumread is incompatible with my strongest scumread (note: strongest, but still not strong) though, so :shrug:.
SirCakez - I mentioned this briefly, but I think Tracker is the perfect scum role in this setup because it has absolutely no utility for scum. Town tracker is useful (more so in the late game) but not as sexy as cop, so running tracker isn't likely to make as many waves. I feel like Cakez' signal to fluff ratio has been spiking when he comes under suspicion as well, which is slight scum pings.
Nono- Nono has been super awkward all game, but particularly the interaction with pooky/LLD and my callout just rings fake to me. I don't think it's very likely that someone looking to suss out alignments misreads that interaction in the first place, but when called out on it they doubled down into buddying LLD and GL. I just don't get the sense that Nono is trying to solve the game at all and is instead just trying to coast along and survive, which normally means PR or scum.

[Bingle]

i exited that game on december 17th. on january 10th, i played in a white flag game under a public alt for like a week, but then i repped out due to both still feeling too burned out to play, and the uni exam season. hadn't played since until this game.

I'm trying to figure out how likely I find you jumping into the role of scumcop or towncop in the wake of that (which I'll probably have to read at some point, sigh). Unfortunately, my initial reaction is just that it kind of explains you doing nothing to get the cop vote and makes that less likely to be AI. It might potentially mean pushback against you being cop made it easier for enchant to get the role mostly unopposed, which is worth pondering though.

Note to Bingle

: reread cop race to see if there was preemptive locking out of Ausuka and/or Datisi.

[Bingle]

It works out Unless LLD claims a vote on sircakes. I wonder what happens in case of a tie.

My guess is that preventing ties is the reason the setup started on evens but that scum probably chooses. It's possible that it's a dice roll, especially given that Shea is using the random modifier for partially funded roles, but generally randomness like that is not great setup design. It could also be time stamp based, and the last vote isn't counted.

Regardless, Shea wouldn't clarify a mechanic like that midgame so it's largely irrelevant.

[Bingle]

What does “assuming my motivation to be pure” mean in context?

I feel like you defaulted to treating me like town, even super early.

I think scum would rather there be a scum cop than a town one, which would be minor town implication for Dats/Ausuka if enchant flipped town and is minor scum points for enchant on its own. It could definitely have played out the way it did with scumtisi and/or scumsuka and townchant, but it's slightly less likely imo. The big takeaway on that read is if someone is rereading this on D5 or something and goes, "Oh, yeah, enchant flipped scum and datsuka turned out to be town" then I most certainly want them looking at the election, because it played out strangely overall.

[Bingle]

Doing this makes me feel stubborn because I have been beating this drum all game but i still don't really think there is any better vote right now

You know what they say: If the only tool you have is a hammer, don't throw rocks at glass houses.

[Bingle]

@PR people: ETA on publishing of relative prices/abilities of JOATS?

[Bingle]

link to the "really bad case"?

[Bingle]

Nah. Way worse to do that.

:eyebrows:

We most certainly should out which abilities exist. (Not which JOAT has which abilities, but which abilities actually exist.) The naive calculation is a 12% chance of no scum in the council. For anyone not in the council that isn't scum, that number is higher. In a practical sense, that number is higher because scum has the motivation and ability to disproportionately influence declaration and election results.

Same with role costs and how much money the treasurer has.

You should also try to end the budget on a weird number, preferably a decimal, to see if there's carry over from one day to the next.

The whole point of that is that if something indeed DOES "go fucky" we have as much information to work out what happened as possible.

Also, I'm not convinced that we shouldn't no lim here, and in absence of a vig or a functionally confirmed protection we probably should.

The two things that should remain secret are thus:

Which JOAT has which abilities.
How much you allot to each individual player.

The latter should be revealed as close as you possibly can to the end of the night phase so that we can have the knowledge in case you get shot, but so that we don't let scum know who they should be shooting.

[Bingle]

okay but this information can come out later

This information absolutely needs to come out before the election on D2, and should come out before we decide whether to take the game off of evens today. What you're proposing is to attempt to hide the roles that exist in the game from scum so that scum can't manipulate them to their advantage when the overwhelming probability is that scum already has that info. As for your "We elected on reads, so actual numbers higher" argument, we elected self nominated people in pools of three. BloodBot literally ran unopposed, and Enchant had a landslide victory despite virtually no consensus on their alignment. If you think scum wasn't happy with the way the election panned out you're kidding yourself, because there was very little in the way of actually trying to argue election results.

There is utility in preventing scum from knowing exactly which JOAT has, say, protective abilities, if we're in the incredibly unlikely case that we actually have a pure council. There is more utility in town knowing that there is a JOAT with protective abilities. There's a reason massclaim can break setups, and we're in a setup where scum can't handle the problem via shooting the individual PRs.

And no duh I think I should have access to the mechanical information. I made that clear like a week ago when I said I didn't see a reason to run for the council when the information the council has should basically all be made public anyway.

What tangible gain do you expect to see from not sharing roles?

[Bingle]

ok but you're misrepresenting his point, it's not that you said "I think", it's that you said "I think" twice in the same sentence and also the first one was that you "think" that you "lean"

What do you make of the fact that the "I think I wish I wonder" post was empty mechspec and thus likely AI neutral and real thoughts anyway?

Like, there's no motivation to lie or misrepresent thought processes from scumsuka there at all, because scumsuka and townsuka should have the same thoughts on whether it's good to manipulate council voting at that point in time.

[Bingle]

Shave the dragons

ngl, I kinda hate this format for reads lists. It's hard to tell at a glance how people on opposite ends of the list compare and the names of your scumreads are hard to read. reads list gets a 2/5 for formatting.

Talk to me more about the distinction between
SleepyKrew
ActionDan
Enchant
SirCakez
Bloodb0t

tier and

Herta
Meowth

tier. I seem to remember you giving reasons on Cakez but not Herta.

[Bingle]

I did miss the "scum have secret roles" bit, but it doesn't really bother me that they do. I thought it was likely on account of this clearly not being a semi-open in the first place.

What I am interested in, specifically, are the JOAT powers that are potentially viable (of which I assume there are protections (JK/RB) and no vig) and the rough amount of power we have access to each night(whether we should be hoarding money to use on abilities when we can be more sure of giving those abilities to town or whether it's a flat refresh, for example).

[Bingle]

I'm a little bit frustrated that you weren't around to have this out with 2 days ago when the discussion would have been relevant to elections, btw. I understand RL got in the way, just annoying that we couldn't already have this part of the mech shit behind us.

[Bingle]

ok but you're misrepresenting his point, it's not that you said "I think", it's that you said "I think" twice in the same sentence and also the first one was that you "think" that you "lean"

What do you make of the fact that the "I think I wish I wonder" post was empty mechspec and thus likely AI neutral and real thoughts anyway?

Like, there's no motivation to lie or misrepresent thought processes from scumsuka there at all, because scumsuka and townsuka should have the same thoughts on whether it's good to manipulate council voting at that point in time.

I think in general scum might still feel awkward about engaging in mechspec because they are going to want to gently nudge mech decisions that favor them or at minimum pretend to be okay with ones they think are pro-town / may not disadvantage them

Fair. I always use my actual setup thoughts regardless so that's not a thing that really occurred to me thinking about it.

I will say that I didn't really have a problem with that post myself.

[Bingle]

i don't know if this is the least fun game of mafia i've ever played but it's somewhere up there

Is there something I can do to help you get engaged?

[Bingle]

I consider Pooky to be mafia btw

Oh?

[Bingle]

This game is already firmly in the middle of mid games for me

Best game of the year for me.

[Bingle]

I missed this, sorry. Is there anyone you'd like me to give a read on or something? idk if that helps as counting getting engaged but I think it'd be more enjoyable if i was more so discussing content than wording choices and stuff like that

I mean, I'd be keen on thoughts about Uno in specific and any of my null reads in general.

[Bingle]

Okay I feel like this is scum indicative for Bingle though? If he's a mech mastermind he should recognize that we don't need to dump all this information now. Ferreting it out seems pretty antitown.

LMAO. Tell me exactly what Binglescum Mastermind intends to gain here from the information I want to be public?

I know, given the OP, that Enchant is a cop and thus probably the best shot for a roleblocker if he's town. I know, from the OP, that you're a tracker and thus probably useless on N1 as town and definitely useless on N1 as scum, given all the town power is public. I know, from the OP, that Pooky and Dan are the only possible sources of roles that AREN'T public. I know, from the OP, that there's a hard gate on the activation of powerroles and we will have to choose which ones are important.

the question for me is : "Is bingle arrogant enough to think his input is better than cold mathematics?"

Excuse you. My input IS more important than cold mathematics. Cold mathematics are actually pretty shit when it comes to winning games of mafia.

While I am incredibly arrogant, this isn't at all about said arrogance, this is about getting the gamestate under control earlier. You fucking know that mafia isn't a game of "Paint by Numbers" it's a game of subjective reads and decisions coached by looking at probabilities. You don't balance a setup by grabbing the EV and running with it: Town doesn't win by randomly eliminating players.

As for why having this information public is a good plan, I explained that shit on like page 4:

I strongly lean towards no elimination D1 because the level of swing in the setup from the smalltown nature means there likely no extra killing roles and D1 is the best day to skip a lim.

I want to confirm or deny the inherent gain from skipping a lim today compared to skipping a lim on some future day where we have more information to work with. It's not rocket surgery. It is something that has to be done PUBLICALLY before the elimination to be of any use at all. Questions like "How often can we rely on getting a cop shot off" and "is it likely we'll pull the game off evens in the future" and "is there potential for a scum vig that we're going to need to play around" absolutely need to get answered to answer that question which has a very clear benefit to being answered publically before we eliminate on D1.

Admittedly, the secondary gain of knowing what prices powers have relative to the pool of cash moneys we have available CAN wait until tomorrow, because LLD is presumably right in that we have at least one town voice who will survive the night and be able to report what happened in the PT come tomorrow barring scum all being on the council AND having an extra kill, which would be an interesting combination of shit game design and incredibly bed shitting on the part of everyone who is town AND also result in a very interesting gamestate where scum risks everything on being able to keep up the charade. But here's the thing: I don't think there's really a drawback to that information being public.

It's incredibly likely that there's scum in the council, but even if there isn't, if there's something absofuckinglutely amazing for town in the JOATs like say, Lie Detector or Wagon Sensor that LLD is trying to protect from a nightkill, scum probably already know that they have something big to worry about in a general sense and can play around that because Shea isn't fucking garbage at setup balance. I'm not advocating sharing enough information to narrow down the shot between the two JOATS (you know, the only two roles that could possibly have something unknown to scum) so if there is a terrifying role town has that scum expects to exist because of that, they already have the same 50/50 shot of hitting the right one that outing what the collective pool of JOAT abilities would give.

So please, tell me again what makes this "strictly wrong". The nonexistent threat that we're giving scum new information to guide the NK? The leak of information that absolutely comes out after the night anyway to be able to be able to decide on whether no limming is the right play here? Scum knowing roughly how much power town has to balance the power scum has, which, you know, they already should be able to guess unless they're a gaggle of shitbrained newbies?

I don't know about you, but if the scumteam is a gaggle of shitbrained newbies who would actually significantly benefit from the information I want public being public, then A. Shea should really add their playernames to the OP and B. I'm really liking the chances of town winning the game.

[Bingle]

LLD: starts capsing and swearing again

Dude. Not helping. Not ever going to help.

If you think LLD is being too aggressive, respectfully ask her to cool down. Passive aggressive sniping will only ever make the situation worse.

[Bingle]

no elimination is for cowards i dont care what the math says

If we can FTC we're gonna FTC. Like, this is exactly the same pushback I got when RC put a fucking disloyal gladiator in a UPick and I said, "Oh, hey, look. We can autowin this game. Let's go ahead and just autowin this game."

[Bingle]

Helping isn't the goal here.

Yeah, I kinda got a sense of that, and I'm weighing in to say knock it off. Can't honestly say that I know what the experience is for a (trans) woman in mafia or what's happened in the pt, but I'm definitely getting a sense of furtive wanting to be/be seen as the reasonable guy trying to disarm toxicity when the way he's going about it is just going to make things more toxic.

Anyway, I think it's best for everyone involved if we just drop this line of discussion for now and agree to treat each other like adults who can understand how to ask each other politely to chill out if it becomes necessary.

[Bingle]

Can't honestly say that I know what the experience is for a (trans) woman in mafia

Actually, I can say that I kind of do have somewhat of an understanding from second hand observation of ETL's gender experiment thing in 2014, but that's a whole other can of worms that isn't directly related to this game. If you're interested, she made a publicly male alt to see how it changed the reactions of people to her play and found that as a whole people were more willing to be aggressive with her and way more willing to listen to her reads, which is fucking sad, tbh. She also confused the fuck out of me cause I kept getting this weird sense that the brand new player knew me way too well.

[Bingle]

lean town, except there are a couple things i am questioning

im referring to a specific back and forth we had when i say limited interaction, though admittedly that wasnt clear

[Bingle]

I am losing confidence in meowth scumread but I am not sure if that's a good or correct thing

Really? Opposite. I didn't think the initial callout of your vote was worth raising an eyebrow over (it struck me as a vanity/pressure wagon on a likely to be replaced slot and thus probably a waste of time overall, but not a waste of time that was worth exploring.) The response to pressure since has been a flailfest.

[Bingle]

i like recent cakez posts tbh i don't think scum goes and tries to start a binglewagon

Whyfore?

[Bingle]

seems like a vanity vote at this point.

This is exactly what makes it suspicious to me. Like, I don't see it going anywhere, I don't think Cakez sees it going anywhere, and it doesn't really feel like something he actually believes. I *think* cakez knows me to the point he'd remember that I don't fake mechspeak as scum and I want to know what exactly he thinks is my angle here to try and manipulate the game in scums favor. It feels like something done to be doing something without actually making any waves in the game, which is not a towny motivation.

I'm also noticing that it showed up right after LLD got her head in the game and tried to tear me a new one for the mech I've been supporting since literally the beginning of the game.

[Bingle]

?

[Bingle]

i read the last five pages im out i cant do the drama today see yall tomorrow

Could you respond to the not drama part where I asked you to explain what scum Bingle gains from outing the info I want outed? That’s be cool.

[Bingle]

That’d.

Fuck autocorrect.

[Bingle]

Most of the time it's because a mod or a player specifically invited me. I've had good experiences with Shea games, and I like this player list.

Don’t worry, we’ll soon fix that

For reals though. There’s a bunch going on at the moment. Skimming back a few pages you’re probably mostly going to want to look at the reads lists that have popped up. There’s a bit of mech disagreement between me/lld/cakez that’s ongoing, but you’re probably not gonna care too much about specifics that you can’t get from watching it play out.

Setup wise we have 6 town prs we assign at the start of each day, that’s done and the list is in the OP.

Big movers so far this game have been gl and me for the most part. Lld started to make waves but was shut down, backed off, and let the thread breathe which I think is a good sign. Pooky has been overall towny and there’s been pretty decent levels of doing shit from most everybody, although some of it is less so than others. I’d start with GL if you want to do an iso catchup, but honestly it’s short enough and useful enough that you should probably just read from the beginning.

Alternatively, STD just did a catch-up you could read along with for the highlights.

[Bingle]

I don't think I was being sexist or transphobic or anything, feel free to report me if you think so though.

I don’t think you intended to be, nor do I think your thought process was. But generally being passive aggressive about telling people they’re getting aggressive is only going to result in them getting upset.

Take it from an asshole who has started more than his share of fights with close friends: the only ways that really work when things get toxic is to be up front and frank About your feelings in a direct and respectful way or to completely remove yourself from the situation. Yelling at someone for being aggressive will work about as well as pissing at Niagara Falls to stop the water flow. You’re still gonna get wet, but now there’s gonna be piss in the stream too.

[Bingle]

Anyway, if we absolutely need to talk about that, we should save it for the endgame when everyone involved can talk about it freely. We’re here to throw (or not throw, as I believe to be optimal) someone into a big ol tank of murder juice.

[Bingle]

Pagetop

[Bingle]

Datisi has requested replacement and I have begun looking.

Sadface.

Cakez, as an addendum to Bingle's response/questions for you

do you think the current council is all town?

No way Im scum or null on most of them.

Thorface.

[Bingle]

but Bingle doesn't count

Stop rubbing my face in my inability to do simple life tasks like count or wake up or eat breakfast. It's really mean.

[Bingle]

Bingle what do you think of my assessment that you have done very little scumhunting this game beyond the readslist that wasn't followed up on?

I’d say that I have been scumhunting, it’s just not the only thing I’ve been doing. I’d also say that I have followed up on the reads list, in that I’ve directly solicited feedback and discussion about individual reads.

If you wanted to not argue in bad faith and ask why I haven’t voted anyone, the answer is that I think it’s better to have no elimination today at the moment and am still working towards that end.

[Bingle]

Hello
Ya I heard my phone vibrate while I was trying to sleep
I stayed up all night
I’m going back to sleep and at some point during tomorrow I will read up

UNVOTE:
Goodnight

Oh god it’s you.

[Bingle]

Bingle what do you think of my assessment that you have done very little scumhunting this game beyond the readslist that wasn't followed up on?

I’d say that I have been scumhunting, it’s just not the only thing I’ve been doing. I’d also say that I have followed up on the reads list, in that I’ve directly solicited feedback and discussion about individual reads.

If you wanted to not argue in bad faith and ask why I haven’t voted anyone, the answer is that I think it’s better to have no elimination today at the moment and am still working towards that end.

Why is no elim good today?

:/

We are on evens. It is unlikely there is a vig given that scum has the potential to get access to any vig shot and scum have 4/15 players, which is too many for a scum vig to be likely. It is unlikely that we have multiple or strong protections. We don’t fully understand our power role functionality yet (not treasurer experiments proposed). We have an unkillable cop.

[Bingle]

Because we just elect a new cop the next day, from a pool of people we suspect anyway. If enchant dies tonight, we all collectively get to go:

"Well, enchant is dead, who gets to be cop?"

If enchant doesn't is dead, we all collectively get to go:

"Well, enchant doesn't is dead, who gets to be cop?"

Our power roles don't die when the people holding them do.

[Bingle]

We should use the sheriff assignation as a pseudovig. I will almost certainly be voting Enchant for Sheriff.
I strongly lean towards no elimination D1 because the level of swing in the setup from the smalltown nature means there likely no extra killing roles and D1 is the best day to skip a lim.

Yes, but if the cop dies and we don’t get an investigation, scum just shot someone we thought was reasonably scummy instead of someone who was actually a townread.

If enchant doesn’t die, we’re not forced to trust the results we get long term because we can just pick a new cop (who can then investigate enchant, leading to a feedback loop of cleared sus townies)

[Bingle]

Of course, this is all based on the premise that we’ll be able to fund cop on the regular and that nothing in the joats makes it super likely we’ll be getting off evens anyway.

[Bingle]

Hence… I want to know approximately how long our treasury will last and what the joat roles are, although I don’t actually care who has which roles and LLD absolutely should not tell scum if she’s not going to fund a specific role, like tracker.

[Bingle]

Why is no elim good today?

Not specifically a response to this, but this is representative:

Why were you so sure that I was scum trying to twist mechspeak to my advantage when you clearly didn't understand what my mechspeak was? Like, LLD was absent in the early game while I was going over this because of the shutdown of her push on you, fine. But why weren't you expressing doubts then if you were were concerned instead of now when we've halfway committed to my plan (see enchant actually being cop).

Why did you decide to call me scum instead of ask for clarification when you clearly didn't understand anything I was advocating?

Do you genuinely believe that "Twisting the mechanics to benefit scum" is how

I

play mafia? I who am especially liable to be BOP'd on bad speculation and mechanics given my sole contributions to the site have been reviewing large and complicated games for balance and mechanical breaks over the last year and a half and was semi retired from playing the game even before that? Especially given that this is the only Shea game that I haven't been the main reviewer for since 2020 afaik, and so am even more likely than most to have an insight into how he builds and balances setups?

Walk me through any town thought process that explains your approach to me, because I'm seeing like no genuine attempt at sorting and instead just kind of a handwaivy "I don't see anything towny from Bingle" and "Bingle is talking about mechanics, he's probably scum."

[Bingle]

Also, did anyone else not get that I was basically arguing that enchant be our elimination for today when I threw my weight there with the sheriff race?

[Bingle]

Is that a generic “no lim is bad” or specific to this game?

[Bingle]

I do regret that choice, yes. Also on account of me not being able to count and assuming there were more players than available seats for the election informing that decision heavily. I’m probably going to declare for board if I’m not forced into cop tomorrow.

[Bingle]

But scum can kill the cop every night and we never get results, so we basically never have a cop. Unless Doc on Cop ofc

If cop is shot every night we're playing nightless with additional PRs. You know who wins 11v4 nightless? Town.

[Bingle]

Scum can't shoot the cop every time.

That, Sir, is irrelevant. Because Enchant is a claimed one shot cop. If we don't trust enchant's results tomorrow, we do this cool thing where we eliminate enchant and either we then trust enchant's results or we've eliminated scum.

[Bingle]

pls no more votes on meowth until LLD confirms her funding choices are in

furtive look at it this way

what bingle is saying is

the normal game is

town lims suspect
mafia kills town

and then repeat

what bingle wants us to do is:

town makes suspect "sheriff"
suspect "investigates"
mafia chooses whether to kill "sheriff" or town

if mafia kills suspect - that's the normal game except like mafia skipped the "kill town portion of the game"
if mafia kills town - that's the normal game except we have a cop result.

Not quite. I want normal eliminations starting tomorrow, in addition to using the cop slot as a vig.

Basically, we're forcing a slot to claim 1 shot cop to survive an extra day EVERY DAY, in addition to our normal toolbox.

[Bingle]

I went in your ISO and read everything from the readslist down and I haven't seen one post that tells me you even care who is scum. Is this just how you play? Should I write it off as that? I don't know.

Spoiler: The 10 Most Recent Scumhunting Oriented Posts By Bingle, All Conveniently after Bingle's readslist

Why is no elim good today?

Not specifically a response to this, but this is representative:

Why were you so sure that I was scum trying to twist mechspeak to my advantage when you clearly didn't understand what my mechspeak was? Like, LLD was absent in the early game while I was going over this because of the shutdown of her push on you, fine. But why weren't you expressing doubts then if you were were concerned instead of now when we've halfway committed to my plan (see enchant actually being cop).

Why did you decide to call me scum instead of ask for clarification when you clearly didn't understand anything I was advocating?

Do you genuinely believe that "Twisting the mechanics to benefit scum" is how

I

play mafia? I who am especially liable to be BOP'd on bad speculation and mechanics given my sole contributions to the site have been reviewing large and complicated games for balance and mechanical breaks over the last year and a half and was semi retired from playing the game even before that? Especially given that this is the only Shea game that I haven't been the main reviewer for since 2020 afaik, and so am even more likely than most to have an insight into how he builds and balances setups?

Walk me through any town thought process that explains your approach to me, because I'm seeing like no genuine attempt at sorting and instead just kind of a handwaivy "I don't see anything towny from Bingle" and "Bingle is talking about mechanics, he's probably scum."

i read the last five pages im out i cant do the drama today see yall tomorrow

Could you respond to the not drama part where I asked you to explain what scum Bingle gains from outing the info I want outed? That’s be cool.

seems like a vanity vote at this point.

This is exactly what makes it suspicious to me. Like, I don't see it going anywhere, I don't think Cakez sees it going anywhere, and it doesn't really feel like something he actually believes. I *think* cakez knows me to the point he'd remember that I don't fake mechspeak as scum and I want to know what exactly he thinks is my angle here to try and manipulate the game in scums favor. It feels like something done to be doing something without actually making any waves in the game, which is not a towny motivation.

I'm also noticing that it showed up right after LLD got her head in the game and tried to tear me a new one for the mech I've been supporting since literally the beginning of the game.

i like recent cakez posts tbh i don't think scum goes and tries to start a binglewagon

Whyfore?

I am losing confidence in meowth scumread but I am not sure if that's a good or correct thing

Really? Opposite. I didn't think the initial callout of your vote was worth raising an eyebrow over (it struck me as a vanity/pressure wagon on a likely to be replaced slot and thus probably a waste of time overall, but not a waste of time that was worth exploring.) The response to pressure since has been a flailfest.

lean town, except there are a couple things i am questioning

im referring to a specific back and forth we had when i say limited interaction, though admittedly that wasnt clear

I missed this, sorry. Is there anyone you'd like me to give a read on or something? idk if that helps as counting getting engaged but I think it'd be more enjoyable if i was more so discussing content than wording choices and stuff like that

I mean, I'd be keen on thoughts about Uno in specific and any of my null reads in general.

I consider Pooky to be mafia btw

Oh?

i don't know if this is the least fun game of mafia i've ever played but it's somewhere up there

Is there something I can do to help you get engaged?

ok but you're misrepresenting his point, it's not that you said "I think", it's that you said "I think" twice in the same sentence and also the first one was that you "think" that you "lean"

What do you make of the fact that the "I think I wish I wonder" post was empty mechspec and thus likely AI neutral and real thoughts anyway?

Like, there's no motivation to lie or misrepresent thought processes from scumsuka there at all, because scumsuka and townsuka should have the same thoughts on whether it's good to manipulate council voting at that point in time.

I think in general scum might still feel awkward about engaging in mechspec because they are going to want to gently nudge mech decisions that favor them or at minimum pretend to be okay with ones they think are pro-town / may not disadvantage them

Fair. I always use my actual setup thoughts regardless so that's not a thing that really occurred to me thinking about it.

I will say that I didn't really have a problem with that post myself.

Pull the other one. It's got bells on.

I can vaguely accept that you are unaware of Bingle mechspeak meta, but what bothers me here is the narrative you're trying to build that just isn't true. You're explicitly not trying to understand my posts by your own admission:

-Why would I ask for clarification from someone I find scummy? I ended up getting it anyways so I don't see why that was an issue.

And you're clearly trying to reach a conclusion and then fitting arguments to support that conclusion by either making up things from whole cloth (BINGLE DOESN'T CARE ABOUT READING PEOPLE!) or just not backing it up at all.

How are you gonna come out and say I'm not trying to sort you while I'm voting you and having this convo with you?

How indeed does a vanity vote and literally making shit up about what I've posted/not posted look like not trying to sort me?

[Bingle]

Xofs list feels safe

Safe how?

[Bingle]

I guess what I want to know is whether you think that's because they're trying to mimic the consensus or whether you just think it's a solid starting point for group reads.

I'm not entirely sure that question makes sense as written, but I think you can understand what I'm trying to get at.

[Bingle]

You can't keep holding up people's posts and asking "Is this weird?" in a way that feels like you're tossing spaghetti at a wall and hoping something will stick and have that be considered content and gamesolving.

Can you give an example of Skrew doing this? The way you describe it seems like pretty much how I scumhunt on day 1 (wide mouth shotgun into the bushes and see what falls out of the chaos) and I’m inclined towards thinking it’s just a normal thing, but if you could give an example of what you mean I might be able to understand a bit better.

[Bingle]

I'm fine to get audited at a later date, but we should limit how much scum knows about how the money works, and more treasurers is more chance scum knows the whole of the mechanic and gets to fuck with it.

Wot?

Absolutely not. First of all, the important bit of the treasurer role information “who gets activated when” is something that 100% comes out every fucking day. Second of all, the second most important bit of the treasurer information “did the treasurer spend the money responsibly” is primarily useful in this nifty little thing called sorting the fucking treasurer. You know whose input is absolutely garbage there? The treasurer.

I can’t help but notice you’ve completely ignored my counter post to your “We need to keep town in the dark” argument and would appreciate your response.

[Bingle]

Is that a generic “no lim is bad” or specific to this game?

I don't consider no-lim is bad, if it's good option.

But with my knowledge, it's not.

No offense, enchant, but I’m not willing to take your word on this.

@Pooky, given pt info, do you think it is likely that we will see a specifically odd number of missed/extra kills this game?

[Bingle]

Also I'm letting it be known now that I will be CAMPAIGNING FOR TRASH COLLECTOR TOMORROW
CAKEZ FOR TRASH DAY TWO

I will take a declaration for any role prior to determining our cop pool as a scum claim.

[Bingle]

sure

Is this a yes?

[Bingle]

Alright. I’ll trust that you indeed got my back for now.

[Bingle]

So why believe Enchant, he sucks at the game.

I happen to have more faith in Pooky's mechanical skills than yours (partly from actually reviewing Pooky's setups), and have now received independent confirmation from two separate members of the council. I still think LLD's "We can't share this information" is unwarranted and either paranoia or a measured attempt to hide useful information from town (jury's out) but frankly we don't have the time for me to figure that out this phase.

From what I remember of setups you've put forward, they tend to be swingy and often have significant balance/play issues. I'm sorry if my impression of your talents offends you, but I don't particularly consider you a mechanical expert, no.

I also don't townread you.

[Bingle]

what's your approach to winning this game as town, besides mech? like what is your gameplan to solve people this game and figure out who is scum and who is town?

:/

In order, my toollbox for winning the game as town:

Mechanical advantage -> manipulate the thread to a position where more people will be readable -> poke people until they do alignment indicative things -> litigate my reads.

[Bingle]

You 100% need skills to judge the effectiveness of protective/killing actions.

FTFY.

[Bingle]

First off, I don't believe that any of the interactions we've had would have happened if I weren't pushing you so I don't really count that as scumhunting. I can't even tell if you think I'm scum.

If you can't read between the lines of "I don't see any possible town motivation for what you're doing" and "Scumreads- SirCakez" then that's probably more a personal failing than anything involved with me. The premise that there's a problem with half of my chronologically sampled scumhunting having to do with my strongest scumread is also laughable.

1 - convo initiated by me
2 - convo initiated by me
3 - about me and essentially a defensive response
4 - about me and essentially a defensive response
5 - sure I'll give you this one. so one.
6 - literally nothing - meme??
7 - loosely scumhunting if we are counting asking someone for reads, i guess
8 - literally nothing
9 - not scumhunting under any definition really
10 - saying you didn't have an issue with one post, which again is not really scumhunting

So, apparently, scumhunting only counts as scumhunting if it's not scumhunting related to Sircakez.

What those posts actually were:

1. Poking Sircakez over what I think is a bullshit read to try and figure out motivations.
2. Poking Sircakez to actually respond to alignment indicative things instead of just ignore them because there was drama in the thread, so that I could actually continue an ongoing attempt to sort whether SirCakez is full of shit.
3. An explanation of my read on SirCakez and solicitation of a read/interaction from a player I'm unsure on who just replaced into the game and who I don't have a particular grasp on.
4. A request for an explanation from a replacement about a read that is literally contrary to my own (followed up on in 3). Note, asking why someone townreads Cakez is apparently a defensive response.
5. A disagreement about the probable lim and an attempt to engage with someone I'm not sure on about said probable lim.
6. A request, via gif, for the probable lim to expand on specific poorly explained reads.
7. A direct call for a specific read on a player who hasn't been talked about much, directed at a player who was having trouble getting involved in the game, with the intention of getting her to produce readable content instead of continuing to be disengaged from the game. Further discourse was derailed literally by the player in question replacing out of the game.
8. A request for elaboration about a scumread that is significantly anti-consensus from a player who is null as shit.
9. A reachout to engage with a player who was having trouble getting involved in the game, leading directly into 7.
10. Engaging with a player about disagreements in the read of a specific post.

Literally, 10 posts with the intention of forming/understanding/evaluating reads. Literally, 10 posts of scumhunting.

VOTE: Cakez

[Bingle]

Reposting to fix tags.

First off, I don't believe that any of the interactions we've had would have happened if I weren't pushing you so I don't really count that as scumhunting. I can't even tell if you think I'm scum.

If you can't read between the lines of "I don't see any possible town motivation for what you're doing" and "Scumreads- SirCakez" then that's probably more a personal failing than anything involved with me. The premise that there's a problem with half of my chronologically sampled scumhunting having to do with my strongest scumread is also laughable.

1 - convo initiated by me
2 - convo initiated by me
3 - about me and essentially a defensive response
4 - about me and essentially a defensive response
5 - sure I'll give you this one. so one.
6 - literally nothing - meme??
7 - loosely scumhunting if we are counting asking someone for reads, i guess
8 - literally nothing
9 - not scumhunting under any definition really
10 - saying you didn't have an issue with one post, which again is not really scumhunting

So, apparently, scumhunting only counts as scumhunting if it's not scumhunting related to Sircakez.

What those posts actually were:

1. Poking Sircakez over what I think is a bullshit read to try and figure out motivations.
2. Poking Sircakez to actually respond to alignment indicative things instead of just ignore them because there was drama in the thread, so that I could actually continue an ongoing attempt to sort whether SirCakez is full of shit.
3. An explanation of my read on SirCakez and solicitation of a read/interaction from a player I'm unsure on who just replaced into the game and who I don't have a particular grasp on.
4. A request for an explanation from a replacement about a read that is literally contrary to my own (followed up on in 3). Note, asking why someone townreads Cakez is apparently a defensive response.
5. A disagreement about the probable lim and an attempt to engage with someone I'm not sure on about said probable lim.
6. A request, via gif, for the probable lim to expand on specific poorly explained reads.
7. A direct call for a specific read on a player who hasn't been talked about much, directed at a player who was having trouble getting involved in the game, with the intention of getting her to produce readable content instead of continuing to be disengaged from the game. Further discourse was derailed literally by the player in question replacing out of the game.
8. A request for elaboration about a scumread that is significantly anti-consensus from a player who is null as shit.
9. A reachout to engage with a player who was having trouble getting involved in the game, leading directly into 7.
10. Engaging with a player about disagreements in the read of a specific post.

Literally, 10 posts with the intention of forming/understanding/evaluating reads. Literally, 10 posts of scumhunting.

VOTE: Cakez

[Bingle]

I consider Pooky to be mafia btw

I'd still like an explanation, here, btw.

[Bingle]

and yet it took you this long to vote me?

Alright. I’ll trust that you indeed got my back for now.

^The post, three hours ago, when I decided to give up on a no-lim.

[Bingle]

I made my argument before.

Your argument was pretty much, "Scum could maybe have some way to gain from the knowledge." You still have given 0 potential ways that could be a thing.

And yeah, I'm probably going to throw my hat in for treasurer if I'm not put as a cop designee tomorrow.

[Bingle]

This and one very early post calling me vaguely scummy are all Bingle has to say about me
Then I started blatantly making shit up about him and suddenly I've turned into his strongest scumread? yeah okay.

[Bingle]

Oh, I'm sorry, I should have put FTFY in that post.

[Bingle]

cakez

Herta

Unowen
datsisi
Bingle

GL

skrew

Enchant

Dragons/Nono

Dan

meowth

bloodbot

XOFLIST

Bold- Null
Italics- Want to look into.

@xof, why don't you want to look into me/Uno/dats and why DO you want to look into Dan/bloodbot?

[Bingle]

like i get that nono wasn't exactly the greatest pillar of towniness but i've never seen anyone try to justify a read on a slot by treating it differently depending on who's playing in it

Isn't this the whole point of reevaluating a slot on replacement? Like, legitimately, different people gonna see things different ways and you're going to read them differently. It's why consistency despite replacement is a lowkey scumtell.

I can kind of understand where you're coming from on the not making waves bit, but I don't think that's really an issue given the already given promise of future content and the fact they're following through on said promise AFAICT.

[Bingle]

The more people rep out, the more chance that Gimli joins the game

Is there something special about Gimli? I don't recognize the name.

[Bingle]

Ah. What's your take on the xof readslist bit?

[Bingle]

So... STD's xof readslist callout seems skeevy to me. The consensus-y bit of the readslist was specifically prompted by Cakez after a much more in depth vibes list in 1570 that focused in more on why they were putting people into certain piles. Treating it like it's a readslist intended to share reads instead of a promise of more content seems pretty LHF, and the worry about the Nono/Dragons reads being separate seems meaninglessly semantic in light of that.

Feels like an easy push to make to make a push, not a real attempt at reading into xofmotivation. Combine that with my impression of x as limbaity from the team mafia games and I am suitably unimpressed with the push.

[Bingle]

nono: this version of the slot pings all the wrong alarms, but it might have just been style clash.
dragons(i may forget and call him Fen like i do everywhere else, but this is who i mean): one of the last games i played you were in, but i don't remember what your alignment was. that being said, you do often start off in an aggressive intentionally chaotic way hoping to get reactions so i don't see your posts as meaning something one way or another. also isodive candidate.

Reference quote.

Why doesn't this seem like a genuine "I didn't like nono but I'm going to try and sort off of dragons" sentiment to you, STD? I could maybe see an argument for buddying, but it's pretty weaksauce buddying if so and I don't get the impression you think they're actually buddying you from your callout.

[Bingle]

I pushed Xof for that readslist because I was struggling to get a sense of where they were landing on people from the big reads dump

I'm not saying you asking for the readslist is scum indicative for you, I'm saying that pretending the readslist was intended to be more than the impressions of a big reads dump is suspicious.

My reasons for suspecting you are entirely independent of the xofsituation.

[Bingle]

I'd like to say, for the record, that xofconvenientformatforportmanteau is causing me significantly more enjoyment than is strictly reasonable.

[Bingle]

You having a prior scumread on the slot doesn't really change my opinion that the callout of the readslist is bad. IIRC, the core of the ausuka scumread was that she was fluffy and disengaged, which... Well, not really a slam dunk scumcase. I'd expect a read based on that to be one you were open to reevaluating and I am not seeing that openness here.

Do you have a bigger reason for scum ausuka that I missed?

[Bingle]

LLD is the towniest of the lot from the Ausuka/Cakez backdown. My experience with scum LLD is that she tends to want to control the thread early and establish a lot of thread dominance, which I just haven't seen here. This is crazy stale in that she's been thread absent as a whole and the games that spring to mind are years old, but she definitely didn't back down in AliPine despite emotional manipulation and going up against GIce, nor did she back down in the anime RPG game where I rolled IC of all things and she got into a heated blow for blow with fferycabd.

Ali, did you see this about LLD? I'd appreciate your input, particularly because you were involved in one of the old as shit games I referenced here. I don't see where your confidence that she's scum is coming from, tbh, but I'd like to solidify that read one way or another if it's possible.

[Bingle]

Spoiler: response to Alisae case

Lowkey, can you make me a new Jingle pfp? I've been the holiday deer for like 16 months now.

[Bingle]

I'd like to request that everyone post their favorite Bingle story. Also, I should probably meaningfully contribute to the game, but instead I'm going to troll SirCakez and then go to bed.

[Bingle]

Okay I don't want to talk about Bingle for 24 hours can it be done

In all seriousness, though, does no one else find it the slightest bit interesting that roughly half* of cakez iso is for or about Bingle and now that people are dismissing it as a town tunneling cakez suddenly has no interest in litigating the read?

*I used control f and looked at the number of appearances of Bingle, not a direct count of posts.

[Bingle]

Other Pokémon can surf!
But that ain’t really my turf!
Because I can walk!
(They can walk!)

[Bingle]

Does parasocial relationship in this case mean that you have a social relationship with further, but only while parachuting?

Because it should. It really should.

[Bingle]

Does parasocial relationship in this case mean that you have a social relationship with furret, but only while parachuting?

Because it should. It really should.

[Bingle]

Why do you think I said I didn't want to talk about you today? I don't think there's anything left to put in this discussion and it seems like no one else has appetite for this wagon so what's even the point of continuing to blast stuff

I think it's quite clear that the point of my post is that your reaction here reinforces my belief that your push on me wasn't actually to get me eliminated or sort me (See, notable lack of actually engaging people like furtive/unowen/gl over their reasons for townreading me or people who weren't expressing any read on me (STD/LLD) to solicit votes), but rather to achieve this:

TvT vibes

TvT vibes

agree on this, I think Bingle is generally more Correct in his points but the way Cakez will acknowledge that he made a mistake or discard valid points against his arguments while continuing to push his Bingle tunnel feels more likely to be town bullheadedness

What are the valid points I'm discarding? When Bingle says things that are legit (like me being wrong on the mech argument) I'm acknowledging it.

Cakez that's basically all I'm saying, you're acknowledging points Bingle is making that seem to refute some of your reasons for suspecting him, but then continuing to suspect him regardless. I didn't mean you were ignoring things, I meant "discard" in the sense of they don't seem to be weakening your read.

if you want I can double back and find specific arguments I was referring to, I'm just lazy quick replying rn

My point is that the scum motivation of this push wasn't actually to get me to be the lim, it was to make people dismiss you as "tunneled town" and not look deeper into solving your alignment.

[Bingle]

DAY STILL NOT OVER YET?

I mean... most of the thread is being held hostage by whatever is going on in the PT, which you're part of. You're in a better position to effect that than 62.5% of players.

[Bingle]

what?

should I read setup

tl;dr

Town has access to a subset of {Cop Tracker JOAT JOAT Useless role} every night based on choices made by another player. This is distributed pseudo democratically at the beginning of each day.

Scum has access to ????.

Scum has 4 players, which is on the higher end for a 15 player, implying they don't have much in the way of actual power. In addition, they have full knowledge of who has each town role and thus the ability to play around that.

We're giving cop to people we don't mind dying so that if they're shot we benefit and if we don't trust their info we can lim them to confirm results without much risk.

LLD is deciding what actions get to be used tonight and doesn't want that process to be known based on "scum might be able to fuck things up" which no one has been able to quantify for me. There is presumably some mechanic that punishes us if we eliminate before LLD chooses 'funding' I want basically full accountability, but that has been vetoed by the council and I don't really have a way to leverage any change.

[Bingle]

I've opted to do so implicitly.

I really, really, really wish you hadn't said this.

[Bingle]

we're running like a 80% chance of scum being informed of everything that happens in this town while townies not in hood are blindfolded to it

The things I wanted outed are, specifically:

What actions the JOATS collectively have available.
How much funding the roles collectively take.
Whether individual JOAT roles cost different amounts of funds.
Approximately how many town actions per night we can expect to get access to.

The things I didn't want outed are, specifically:

What actions belong to each individual JOAT.
The amount of funding being granted to each individual player tonight.

Those things should come out at start of day tomorrow.

We legitimately don't have time to change any decisions based on that at this point though, so...

VOTE: Meowth

[Bingle]

Oh look. Another player who takes issue with the plan, then gets told that the plan is maximizing the odds that scum don't know anything for the moment even if it's less likely, and then has no answer for that but "oh, yeah, it's fine".

I too am frustrated with the sheer number of people being distracted from legitimate arguments by a laser pointer.

[Bingle]

There’s a thing you could do to help that along cakez. I know you’re making a moral stand about wanting unowen eliminated and all, but it’s not actually going to change anything.

[Bingle]

Don't declare until we pick our sheriff nominees, please and thank you.

[Bingle]

I am surprised that this worked out this way. But uh, should I be running for something? Given I don't think a lot of people trust me at all, is there any one of the jobs I should end up in because of that?

sherriff

Weirdly on point given my impression that you haven't been paying any attention to the game at all.

[Bingle]

We'll probably be funding 3 roles today so I'd like people universally town read like either LLD/sheep to be sheriff.

Hm.

If we can functionally guarantee a protection on the sheriff, I'm down for this kind of idea. LLD/Pooky night actions gave me an idea that hadn't occurred to me to take advantage of if Treasurer/Both Joats are all town, so I think that's actually my priority rn.

[Bingle]

Cakez was a fine vig, btw. He was shittunneled onto me and acting approximately 0% town. His refusal to vote meowth was gross with the flip and I absolutely thought he was scum when I saw the flip. Him being dead town is unfortunate, but at least it shakes me out of that and we can have something more productive than a loud TvT fight which would have been inevitable.

Scum LLD would've been completely fine letting me and Cakez have a slap fight all day, I think.

[Bingle]

Bingle are you down2b treasurer

I would be, yes.

[Bingle]

Happy to support UNowen as my old role

Anything other than the CW, or is there deeper logic here?

I agree that UNowen is probably town for that and for the tinfoil reasoning of the townread on me showing a deeper attempt at reading motivation, but I'd be glad to hear any additional arguments.

[Bingle]

Can anyone who was part of the PT confirm whether it stayed open at night and also whether you can still read it. I'm assuming yes on both counts, but it is relevant to ideas.

[Bingle]

However, I do not understand why town!Pooky would be willing to grant kill power to a player he does not know the alignment of. And I also think Pooky should know Cakez well enough to have seen him as town there.

IIRC, pooky is particularly sheepy around people who he has a lot of faith in. I don't think it's a good look, for sure, but I definitely could see Pooky outsourcing his vig shot as town. Pooky, any insights you can offer as to why you picked those five names?

[Bingle]

IMO Bingle is town because he appeared to miss two points about the game setup in thread that I think Binglescum with his mechanical head would have already squared: a) the belief that it was possible to change election votes and b) that scum have extra powers that haven’t been revealed. The second point is more significant.

Could be faked but don’t think it would be his style to fake mechanics confusion as scum.

This is the tinfoil read, Unowen. And yeah, it's pretty tinfoily.

Like, you're right that I don't tend to fake mech confusion as scum unless not doing so is literally gamethrowing (If I see a strategy that makes an autowin for town and am scum, I pretty much have to do this) but I don't really see why my alignment has much to do with how thoroughly I read the OP. If anything I think this is just proof that I'm out of practice at playing mafia.

That you think it makes me town and the way I can follow the reasoning makes me feel better about your slot, though.

[Bingle]

why wouldn't one of the JOAT abilities that needs treasurer funding be a vig shot?

I mean... I assumed there wasn't a vig based on 11v4 and scum having potential access to every power. 11v4 with a scum vig of any flavor is pretty busted in scum's favor with the power we know we can have.

[Bingle]

People said 'vig shot' before xofelf did.

As I understand it the slip isn't that xof said vig shot, but that they "expected to be the vig last night".

[Bingle]

Town xof wouldn't have a way of knowing whether there was a vig during the night phase, but they claim that they thought they would be vigged during the night phase. That implies xof had insight into the PT, but not insight into who would actually be killed.

LLD - Treasurer - Knows who is getting shot, town via xofslip.
enchant - Sherriff Dead
Pooky - Mayor - Knows who is getting shot, town via xofslip
ActionDan - Council Member
Furtiveglance - Trash Collector
Sheepsaysmeep - Board of Elections

That gives us xofscum and one scum in AD/Furtive/Sheep with two conftown, pooky and LLD.

[Bingle]

LLD mayor, Pooky Council member, me treasurer? I think I'd be happy with that. And then putting someone reasonably town in Sheriff, because we can be reasonably sure they don't die?

[Bingle]

I want to know how I did this

[Bingle]

i didnt pick anything i told LLD to pick the names

Yeah, I saw the clarification. Was it your plan or hers to use funding to communicate which one to kill?

[Bingle]

I'm not keen to do too much thinking based on a still hypothetical xof scum flip (though I thought that was already likely going into today).
But if xof is scum:

I don't want Furtive on the council.

Post funding and post flip reading back he pestered Pooky on whether Pooky was shooting Xof.

Page 5: LLD insists on vigging Ausuka, using unsavoury language. I say that it's rude, argument about that ensues. Pooky fans the flames of this vig stuff and says he's more than happy, telling LLD to give him 5 names and 5 corresponding funding amounts. Pooky insists he will never doc Enchant - if scum kill Enchant they're 'throwing' apparently, calls doccing them a big waste.

clarifying the details of this discussion around xof being the potential vig target would probably yield a third.

Given this and AD being the one to suggest that we put locktown in the sheriff role, I'm inclined to think there's likely a roleblocker and we should probably keep the sheriff as limbait plan as of right now.

[Bingle]

I see a way that 2144 could feasibly be twisted to scum pooky's advantage, but I'm not sure if outing it is a good idea and I don't know if its likely without having been in the pt to read how things happened.

Right now, I'm leaning towards pooky being townspewed and am not super worried about it.

[Bingle]

Furtive why did you think n1 tracker was a decent option?

[Bingle]

Eh, I would've kept the WIFOM alive in the PT about "Maybe I'll doc enchant" but I'm not at all upset that they got shot. I was a little upset we didn't get a more indicative cop pool D1, but that was literally decided before I made it to the thread.

[Bingle]

Spoiler: notes on sheriff vote

actiondan (datisi):
consistently finding enchant scummy
townreads datisi
scum reads ausuka

ausuka:
town reads enchant
read on datisi is unclear to me

bingle (enchant):
seems to be doing the same thing as me re enchant, but also isn't happy about it? to answer my own question from above, bingle was pretty obvious about this in thread before voting closed
unclear about datisi
unclear about ausuka
does suggest all 3 could be scum

bloodb0t (enchant):
disagrees with a town read on enchant
at least leans town on ausuka and datisi
later switches to a scum read on ausuka and votes there

datisi:
null on ausuka, then leans town
scum reads enchant, then lightens slightly

enchant:
likes ausuka and ausuka reads:
"furtive enchant and bingle are the only people I really townread on any level"
voted for datisi

furtiveglance (enchant):
strong town on enchant
seems null on ausuka, then town read
null on datisi, then doesn't want sleepkrew to vote for him

guiltylion (datisi):
null on enchant, confused by the votes
pinged by ausuka, then commits to a scum read
seems fairly null on datisi

herta (enchant):
read on ausuka is unclear, seemed to improve from lean scum to at least null
nothing on datisi
nothing on enchant

lld (unknown):
unclear on all, though maybe willing to kill ausuka and datisi its hard to tell if its serious

nono (enchant):
pass

pooky (enchant):
thinks ausuka and datisi are scummy
read on enchant isn't super clear but not as scummy as the others

cakez (ausuka):
seems to lean towards town for ausuka
seems to lean scum / null on datisi
nothing on enchant

sleepykrew (enchant):
nothing on ausuka
nothing on enchant
nothing on datisi

unowen (enchant):
nothing on ausuka
nothing on enchant
nothing on datisi

Treasurer: LLD 8, herta 5
Sheriff: enchant 9, datisi 2, ausuka 1
Mayor: pooky 6, SK 5, GL 2
Council Member: dan 6, meowth 4, unowen 3
Trash Collector: furtive 7, sircakez 6

It works out Unless LLD claims a vote on sircakes. I wonder what happens in case of a tie.

The only ausuka/xof vote for sheriff came from town, which checks out if ausuka is scum. It's probably not super important either way though, since enchant turned out to be town and scum wanted the kill there.

[Bingle]

Should I just out the treasurer mechanic at this point?

I’m not opposed, but you can at least give a y/n/m on “can we use 3 abilities tonight”.

[Bingle]

initially, i don't hate cakez as a vig shot but was that really the best use of our funding?

As someone who thinks vigs are anti town, yes. We absolutely had to use the vig shot early because it is a role we cannot afford scum getting in the late game.

[Bingle]

You had a comment about me suggesting putting in a townread for sheriff made you want not to do that. Why?

You had a post that looked like it might be s/s/s with xof/furtive which made me suspicious about your thoughts.

The main drawback to using a doc to save cop here is that we can only do so once and if scum has a way of roleblocking that, telegraphing that plan is dangerous.

Roleblock whichever role pooky had (mayor?) that has the doc, shoot the cop. Then you have a dead strong town read and an implicit 1v1 between two more strong town reads potentially causing major problems for town.

If no roleblocker, that still leaves mayor/treasurer/council member open to bullets.

If we do have double doc, we can have a 50/50 on protecting cop through roleblocker without using up both roles or a 50/50 on cop AND potential coverage on the other town, which is tempting.

The hesitation there, of course, is that doctor is a role that is more likely to be relevant the later we use it.

[Bingle]

didn't everyone know who was getting shot? i'm not sure i follow

Everyone knew xof was an option, but which option to pick was worked out via funding. Pooky knew xof wouldn’t be shot b/c he pulled the trigger, and lld wrote the order on the wad of cash she handed him. Everyone else probably assumed xof was the target based on LLD/ausuka interactions and the summary of the thread, which was a smart play on LLDs part as it baited out a scum doc if one exists.

[Bingle]

Private, afaict.

As described, the plan worked by sending an amount of cash moneys to each PR and then that PR receiving that amount as a PM so the others wouldn't know what specific action the PR was told to take. It's an interesting idea that relied on the PRs being told the amount they received, but not the amount others received.

[Bingle]

@Pooky:

Did the funding notification happen prior to the elim?