Weird Dreams Mafia Redux [Finished]

[Ranger]

Doctor Ranger here. Expect a Win.

[Ranger]

{usesPython}
{Abnegation}
{Aureal}
{Save The Dragons, Titus}
{DragonEater70}

P1.
VOTE: DragonEater70

HURT: Ranger, usesPython, Abnegation, Aureal

[Ranger]

Fair enough, handing out an Innocent Child invention which

As an unmodified passive ability: The moderator will confirm your alignment.

with the Normal Invention is better than a Vig shot though

It'd be best to clarify with the moderator if the role would function as advertised and only work if the player using it is town.

We don't want to operate under any false pretense of scum being unconfirmable only for the mod to announce the scum player as a town IC.

From the first iteration, I

believe

the IC should work as town-only. It's best to confirm 100% though.

[Ranger]

I was in the middle of pushing Doctor Drew when suddenly D1 was ended fue to scum powers, and then the game was compromised D2.
So now I finally get to VOTE: Doctor Drew

This is a scum claim, I was town in the OG game.

You jest, yet DragonEater's entrance is definitely scum.

{usesPython}
{Doctor Drew}
{Abnegation}
{Aureal}
{Save The Dragons, Titus}
{DragonEater70}

P2.

HURT: Ranger, usesPython, Doctor Drew, Abnegation, Aureal

[Ranger]

{usesPython}
{Doctor Drew}
{Abnegation}
{Aureal}
{Merlyn}
{camelCasedSnivy}
{Save The Dragons, Titus, biancospino}
{DragonEater70}

P3.

[Ranger]

Casual chat;

VOTE: Save The Dragons

It's always nice to meet more plural folk.
We don't sign, yet for playing, it's usually me, Miranda, posting.
I receive occasional aid from Hermione for jokes and an unnamed Motherly facet for providing advice.

[Ranger]

This somehow didn't go through earlier;

VOTE: Drews-a-licious

There's many things I'll

Drew

. Voting a town-him not among them.

[Ranger]

excuse me ranger i'm town

Sure, I'll believe that.

{usesPython}
{Save The Dragons, Doctor Drew}
{Abnegation}
{Aureal}
{Merlyn}
{camelCasedSnivy}
{Titus, biancospino}
{DragonEater70}

[Ranger]

Can we propose more than five people for the nightmare?

[Ranger]

HEAL: prior proposal

HURT: Ranger, usesPython, Doctor Drew, Save The Dragons, Abnegation, Aureal, Merlyn, camelCasedSnivy, Titus, biancospino

[Ranger]

I feel kinda left out here. :(

I like to leave scum out, personally.

I'm a Miller btw

I'm skeptical, yet not enough to vote.

{usesPython}
{Save The Dragons, Doctor Drew}
{Abnegation}
{Aureal}
{Merlyn}
{camelCasedSnivy}
{Titus, biancospino, Radical Rat}
{DragonEater70}

[Ranger]

Well, you could always check. I think it would be a waste of an ability, but it can be done

Fortunately, nothing about Normal roles prevents a Miller from being an IC, so if IC reveals are accurate, then a Miller can still be cleared.

Ranger you better not put Merlyn, Aureal, and Artichoke above me.

No promises. :P
I

Drew

what I want to.

{usesPython}
{Abnegation}
{Save The Dragons, Doctor Drew}
{Aureal}
{Merlyn}
{camelCasedSnivy, Radical Rat}
{Titus, biancospino}
{DragonEater70}

[Ranger]

Recurring V/LA Sunday - Monday through July

Those 2 days won’t be pleasant for me this month.

[Ranger]

For D1 at least, is there any reason the nightmare SHOULDN'T include everyone?

Same reason we don’t massclaim D1; scum usually have counterplay making the strategy detrimental.

[Ranger]

{usesPython}
{Abnegation}
{Rautherdir}
{Save The Dragons, Doctor Drew}
{Radical Rat}
{Aureal}
{Merlyn}
{camelCasedSnivy}
{Titus, biancospino}
{DragonEater70}

P5 loosely. Reads likely incoherent, dealing with unpleasant rl things rn, so may be off.

[Ranger]

{usesPython}
{Abnegation}
{Rautherdir}
{Save The Dragons, Doctor Drew}
{Radical Rat}
{Merlyn}
{Aureal}
{camelCasedSnivy}
{Morning Rweet}
{Titus, biancospino, sheepsaysmeep, Kyoko Kirigiri}
{DragonEater70}

Loosely P6.

[Ranger]

Ranger is automatically scum for putting STD at the bottom then switching him to the top when he asked nicely

Hey, I

Drew

what I want to.
STD asked, and I wanted to honor his request!

[Ranger]

{usesPython}
{Abnegation}
{Rautherdir}
{Save The Dragons, Doctor Drew}
{Radical Rat}
{Merlyn}
{Aureal}
{Morning Tweet}
{biancospino}
{camelCasedSnivy}
{Titus, sheepsaysmeep, Kyoko Kirigiri}
{DragonEater70}

Loosely P7.

[Ranger]

{usesPython}
{Abnegation}
{Rautherdir}
{Save The Dragons, Doctor Drew}
{Radical Rat}
{Merlyn}
{Aureal}
{Morning Tweet}
{biancospino}
{camelCasedSnivy}
{Kyoko Kirigiri}
{Titus}
{sheepsaysmeep}
{DragonEater70}

Loosely P8.

[Ranger]

{usesPython}
{Abnegation}
{Rautherdir}
{Save The Dragons, Doctor Drew}
{Radical Rat}
{Merlyn}
{Aureal}
{Morning Tweet}
{biancospino}
{camelCasedSnivy, Kyoko Kirigiri}
{Titus}
{Flea The Magician}
{sheepsaysmeep}
{DragonEater70}

Loosely P10.

[Ranger]

dont understand what StD did to get so high up Ranger's list

He asked. :P

also how is bianco townier than me ranger???

Slightly townier solving vibes from what I’ve seen.

[Ranger]

Why would you be skeptical of a miller claim?

It feels like a role more likely to not be town.

[Ranger]

{usesPython}
{Rautherdir}
{Abnegation, Save The Dragons, Doctor Drew, Radical Rat}
{Merlyn, Aureal}
{Morning Tweet}
{biancospino, camelCasedSnivy}
{Kyoko Kirigiri}
{Flea The Magician}
{Titus}
{sheepsaysmeep}
{DragonEater70}

Loosely P11.

[Ranger]

{usesPython}
{Rautherdir}
{Abnegation, Save The Dragons, Doctor Drew, Radical Rat}
{Aureal, Morning Tweet}
{camelCasedSnivy}
{Merlyn}
{biancospino}
{Kyoko Kirigiri}
{Flea The Magician}
{Titus}
{sheepsaysmeep}
{DragonEater70}

Loosely P12. (Congrats Camel. :P)

[Ranger]

on that subject, idk what

i

did to get so high up ranger's list either.

Consistently townie vibes, honestly.

You just

look

town to me.

[Ranger]

I notice a lot of talk about finding trustworthy people to put in the Nightmare. I would like to say that I am town, thus feel free to put me in there, coach(es).

I certainly will. I believe you.

[Ranger]

{KatyKimFanclub}
{usesPython}
{Rautherdir}
{Abnegation, Save The Dragons, Doctor Drew, Radical Rat}
{sheepsaysmeep}
{Aureal, Morning Tweet, camelCasedSnivy}
{biancospino, Kyoko Kirigiri}
{Merlyn}
{Flea The Magician}
{Titus}
{DragonEater70}

Loosely P14.

[Ranger]

{KatyKimFanclub}
{usesPython}
{Rautherdir}
{Abnegation, Save The Dragons, Doctor Drew, Radical Rat}
{sheepsaysmeep}
{Aureal, Morning Tweet, camelCasedSnivy}
{biancospino, Kyoko Kirigiri}
{Merlyn}
{Flea The Magician}
{Titus}
{WhemeStar}
{DragonEater70}

Loosely P15, tho will need to reread those Wheme talks prior to this.

[Ranger]

I like Ranger's chain of logic in 97.

I have logic? This is news to me.

[Ranger]

It's not "Dragon's talking in this game like town!Dragon normally does, therefore Dragon's town", it's "town!Dragon sounds LAMIST as hell normally so tone-reading him as scum off of that is a bad read"

I'm not tonereading DragonEater.
I'm scumreading DragonEater because I got one of the strongest gut pings ever of "DragonEater is

not

town".
Lacking a reason's rather inconvenient as I'm aware it decreases the odds I'll be followed.

[Ranger]

something something nuanced takes town vibes. i like this.

I understand this. I see the same thing.
I don't understand why I have such a strong gut scumread on DragonEater, yet it makes me not trust the nuanced take as town.

[Ranger]

I hope you are going to pay me royalties for using my likeness.

What kind of payment do you want?

[Ranger]

hmm. i guess your strategy being "coast and sheep people" explains some stuff if i believe it. i'm not sure if i believe it.
your play has felt different this game. from what i know of town!you, you normally don't have issues posting stuff that ruffles people's feathers, or making reads that come off as scummy or tinfoily. i got the vibe that you might be trying to avoid doing that this game. trying to get people to like you.

Being honest, Doctor Drew is playing as he does when scum.

Were I unwilling to provide benefit of the doubt, he'd nearly top my scumreads.

I actually

do

believe him though; idk why. Gut I guess.

{usesPython, Abnegation}
{KatyKimFanclub}
{Rautherdir}
{Save The Dragons, Radical Rat}
{sheepsaysmeep}
{Aureal, Morning Tweet, camelCasedSnivy}
{Doctor Drew}
{biancospino, Kyoko Kirigiri}
{Merlyn}
{Flea The Magician}
{WhemeStar}
{Titus}
{DragonEater70}

[Ranger]

They vibe town, which I think is the wrong way of going about a KKFC read cause they're really good at doing that even as scum.

Ranger go check out Mini Normal 2303 when you have the time, it's a bit of a shitshow and we still haven't read the first 1k posts there but they definitely vibed town there as strong as they do here

Skimmed their iso there. It doesn't vibe town like here.

[Ranger]

{usesPython, Abnegation}
{KatyKimFanclub}
{Rautherdir}
{Radical Rat}
{sheepsaysmeep}
{Aureal, Morning Tweet, camelCasedSnivy}
{biancospino, Kyoko Kirigiri}
{Doctor Drew}
{Save The Dragons}
{Flea The Magician}
{Merlyn}
{WhemeStar}
{Titus}
{DragonEater70}

HEAL: prior proposal

HURT: Ranger, usesPython, Abnegation, KatyKimFanclub, Rautherdir, Radical Rat, sheepsaysmeep, Aureal, Morning Tweet, camelCasedSnivy
(May include bianco/Kyoko, for now leaving out.)

[Ranger]

Honestly just once want to be at the top of your list, even just once.

Payment accepted.

{Doctor Drew}
{usesPython, Abnegation}
{KatyKimFanclub}
{Rautherdir}
{Radical Rat}
{sheepsaysmeep}
{Aureal, Morning Tweet, camelCasedSnivy}
{biancospino, Kyoko Kirigiri}
{Save The Dragons}
{Flea The Magician}
{Merlyn}
{WhemeStar}
{Titus}
{DragonEater70}

[Ranger]

personally idk why abnegation and rauth are so high

Townie vibes, honestly.

[Ranger]

hmm. do you think there's anything behind your gut reads or is it truly just a feeling?

Not sure yet. I'll have a better sense of if my gut's good with time.

For now I trust the DragonEater scumread and have enough trust in Doctor Drew to not have him be a top scumread.

{usesPython, Abnegation}
{KatyKimFanclub}
{Rautherdir}
{Radical Rat}
{sheepsaysmeep}
{Aureal, Morning Tweet, camelCasedSnivy}
{biancospino, Kyoko Kirigiri}
{Doctor Drew, Save The Dragons}
{Flea The Magician}
{Merlyn}
{WhemeStar}
{Titus}
{DragonEater70}

[Ranger]

Oops, meant to do this;

{usesPython, Abnegation}
{KatyKimFanclub}
{Rautherdir}
{Radical Rat}
{sheepsaysmeep}
{Aureal, Morning Tweet, camelCasedSnivy}
{biancospino, Kyoko Kirigiri}
{Doctor Drew, Save The Dragons}
{Flea The Magician}
{WhemeStar}
{Merlyn}
{Titus}
{DragonEater70}

[Ranger]

Half+1 of everyone I think have Doctor Drew included in a proposal right now, so....
We don't want to put everyone in but uh.... Well, I guess we have one person already confirmed in now, so.

i only counted 8, majority is 10.
i don't think that's even how the voting system works. i'm pretty sure what korina said was that you get confirmed to be in the nightmare by being in a proposal (not multiple proposals) that reaches majority.
my impression of it was that someone put doctor drew in there via day ability. idk if i like that.

I'm waiting on the VCs to know for sure, but if this is the case I want Drew dead.

i did also get the feeling that this is a scummy ability if that's what it is.
my count was looking at the last vc and then counting any hurt tags for proposals containing drew before the point that he was confirmed, which was none if i counted right. official vcs would be good though.

Morning Tweet has been forcibly confirmed to Run The Nightmare tonight! VC to reflect this, and a normal VC later tonight.

Any additional votes cast on MT will not count, and any unvotes for MT will not count.

This is a mod announcement Doctor Drew has been confirmed to Run The Nightmare™️ tonight. All future proposals do not need to include Doctor Drew, and will automatically include him.

All current proposals will be amended to include Doctor Drew when I’m done with work.

It's definitely the same ability.

[Ranger]

Is there any significance to the fact that MT's says 'forcibly confirmed' and Drew's doesn't?

I'd assume the slight differences in the nightmare mechanic.

Actually, does anyone have a link to the first game? I think I'd like to take a look

First game

[Ranger]

So I'll just ask directly. Is this your doing, Ranger?

I understand why you'd want an answer to this. On policy, I refuse to; unless I see a tangible benefit for answering a question like this, my policy is to not. I don't see a tangible benefit to a hard-yes/no. You've provided reasons why you think it'd be useful. I don't see your reasons as providing a tangible benefit, sorry.

{usesPython, Abnegation}
{KatyKimFanclub}
{Rautherdir}
{Radical Rat}
{sheepsaysmeep}
{Morning Tweet, camelCasedSnivy}
{Aureal}
{biancospino, Kyoko Kirigiri}
{Doctor Drew, Save The Dragons}
{Flea The Magician}
{WhemeStar}
{Merlyn, Titus}
{DragonEater70}

[Ranger]

If she's not responsible at all, then yeah, she'll probably just say no

There's your error.
Regardless of alignment and regardless of whether I did or didn't do it, I'd likely say 'no' if providing an answer.
On policy, I don't see a benefit to providing a yes/no.

You can take issue with this philosophy. Maybe you can pressure people into wagoning me, or maybe you can persuade me giving a yes/no answer would provide a tangible benefit. Until I'm convinced otherwise, my lack of answer remains.

[Ranger]

Ranger is a big enough question mark for me that if we ARE trying to make a pure Nightmare, I don't want her in it yet.

I think that if the one who did it is Town, they should come forward and talk about why, because from an outside perspective it makes no sense as to why Town should have done that, especially given how it worked out for you last time. So if they get caught later without fessing up, that's worse for them.

That said, I can see why Ranger's refusing to answer, and the evidence sadly just isn't strong enough for me to insist on it yet, and I'm not strong enough to win an argument with Ranger over it without that evidence. But it has taken Ranger out of my presumed Town list.

The scene of the crime is mafiascum.net
If they posted in the thread, during the estimated time the crime was committed, they were online at the time.
There's not an easy way of knowing who was online and didn't post, so it isn't an exhaustive list, but it's a starting point. Of those that we knew were there, Ranger is the most likely, and while her evasiveness isn't on its own proof of anything, the suspicion is strong enough that I don't want her in the Nightmare because of it.

Why would scum!Ranger be evasive instead of just saying she didn't do it when thread consensus seemed to be that it was scum doing it?

Because Ranger's smart enough to know that refusing to answer is +Town, and that if she Did do it and gets caught later after a hard denial it'll be even more difficult to talk her way out of it than it already is.

I'm giving her space because of it, but I don't trust her enough right now to want her in the Nightmare, especially when we already have the numbers without her.

She could definitely be doing it as Town, yeah. I'm not saying it's impossible. Notably I'm not voting her over it. I just don't trust her right now.

I read the circumstances around it as pointing to her. Her response itself is slightly Town indicative, and I acknowledge the evidence as largely circumstantial at this point, but it's not at a point where I trust her right now.

In this case it's relevant to the Nightmare. We have seven people without her, I think she's a liability, so even if it's just to sate my paranoia, can we like. Not have her in? That's all I'm asking at this point.

There's a fundamental issue with Radical Rat's logical process here.

I don't care to explain the hole in their process rn; it's there if you think about it.

Still, while Rat having it is nai, the players going "that's legit" are instantly sus.

[Ranger]

{usesPython, Abnegation}
{KatyKimFanclub}
{Radical Rat}
{Rautherdir}
{sheepsaysmeep}
{Morning Tweet, camelCasedSnivy}
{Aureal}
{biancospino, Kyoko Kirigiri}
{Save The Dragons}
{Flea The Magician}
{WhemeStar}
{Titus}
{Merlyn}
{Doctor Drew}
{DragonEater70}

[Ranger]

what's the tl;dr reason for not putting everyone

Ironically given Radical Rat's exclusion of me:

For D1 at least, is there any reason the nightmare SHOULDN'T include everyone?

Same reason we don’t massclaim D1; scum usually have counterplay making the strategy detrimental.

[Ranger]

I'm confused why people think scum!rauthe would do whatever rauthe did to make himself look scummy

Rautherdir is a convenient target.


I don't think it makes multiple players pushing Rauth scum. I think it's loosely 50-50 on-off. Those off making posts like 758, those on encouraging the nothingness wagon.

This is also part of why I think Radical Rat's town. They appear to be a town player scum are using.

[Ranger]

I think people said why rauthe is scummy but not why scum!rauthe does what he did

I agree.

If I'm wrong (about maybe being wrong I guess?) I would very much like to know why

Try working your way through your process again.

There's an issue with it involving a preexisting conclusion. Your logic has a contradiction which requires already having a conclusion to be consistent.

[Ranger]

Why did you italicize this? i saved this as a crumb

To emphasize the pun.

Whatever I

Drew

, I'd

Drew

it again. Bad puns included.

This is also part of why I think Radical Rat's town. They appear to be a town player scum are using.

I am pretty confident one of DragonEater or Merlyn is scum too.

My read's both are.

[Ranger]

my gut still inclined to believe Rauth is town and camel/Python both seem like town to me ESP Python
RR towny

I'm kind of lost why Katy is scum

Its funny that Ranger is such a polarized read ive no clue

Perhaps of assistance: up to this point, your reads align with mine.

Drew/DragonEater both are scumreads, yet Rauth/camel/Python/RR/Katy all are town to me.

[Ranger]

This is fair. I mean I also haven't voted you either, so.

I don't care about a vote on me.

You seem very disingenuous.

Okay, I'm seeing the town-Doctor Drew now and rather strongly so.

[Ranger]

{usesPython, Abnegation}
{KatyKimFanclub}
{Radical Rat}
{Rautherdir}
{Doctor Drew}
{Morning Tweet, camelCasedSnivy}
{sheepsaysmeep}
{biancospino, Kyoko Kirigiri}
{Save The Dragons}
{Flea The Magician}
{Titus}
{WhemeStar}
{Aureal}
{Merlyn}
{DragonEater70}

Middle reads stale (MT - Aureal tiers), feels pretty good for now tho.

[Ranger]

It's literally the only persons name she's punned all game

Yes, I went into this game deciding to make Doctor Drew puns. Just 'cuz.

Do you think it suspect?

[Ranger]

{usesPython}
{Abnegation, KatyKimFanclub}
{Radical Rat}
{Rautherdir}
{Doctor Drew}
{Morning Tweet, camelCasedSnivy}
{sheepsaysmeep}
{Save The Dragons}
{Flea The Magician}
{Random Nurse, Kyoko Kirigiri}
{Titus}
{WhemeStar}
{Aureal}
{Merlyn}
{DragonEater70}

[Ranger]

Can't believe you didn't pun our name, this is so sad :pensive:

Sadly, I'm not fluent in programming. I could force a snake pun maybe.
My preference with you is just chatting, honestly. You're interesting.

[Ranger]

you saying it meant absolutely nothing?

As with Radical Rat, my policy remains. I decline answering.

I'll say I decided to have some fun, and Doctor Drew puns are fun. Do they mean more? Who's to say?

[Ranger]

is there a reason you punned doctor drew name in multiple posts and partially each time?

It seemed apt placement. I don't want to kill the joke with overuse/forced; I still want to use it.

[Ranger]

I suppose I shall alleviate at least one concern.

I'm town.

There, concern answered.

[Ranger]

It was definitely signaling.

If you say so.

{Doctor Drew}
{usesPython}
{Abnegation, KatyKimFanclub}
{Radical Rat}
{Rautherdir}
{Morning Tweet, camelCasedSnivy}
{sheepsaysmeep}
{Save The Dragons}
{Flea The Magician}
{Titus}
{Random Nurse}
{WhemeStar}
{Aureal}
{Kyoko Kirigiri}
{Merlyn}
{DragonEater70}

[Ranger]

{usesPython}
{Abnegation, KatyKimFanclub}
{Radical Rat}
{Rautherdir}
{Doctor Drew}
{Morning Tweet, camelCasedSnivy}
{sheepsaysmeep}
{Save The Dragons}
{Flea The Magician}
{Titus}
{Random Nurse}
{WhemeStar}
{Aureal}
{Kyoko Kirigiri}
{Merlyn}
{DragonEater70}
AKA, rBree2. I've Quite the

[Ranger]

oops :P

{usesPython}
{Abnegation, KatyKimFanclub}
{Radical Rat}
{Rautherdir}
{Doctor Drew}
{Morning Tweet, camelCasedSnivy}
{sheepsaysmeep}
{Save The Dragons}
{Flea The Magician}
{Titus}
{Random Nurse}
{WhemeStar}
{Aureal}
{Kyoko Kirigiri}
{Merlyn}
{DragonEater70}

[Ranger]

Thinking about it,

{usesPython}
{Abnegation, KatyKimFanclub}
{Radical Rat}
{Rautherdir}
{Doctor Drew}
{Morning Tweet, camelCasedSnivy}
{sheepsaysmeep}
{Save The Dragons}
{Flea The Magician}
{Titus}
{Random Nurse}
{WhemeStar}
{Aureal}
{Merlyn}
{Kyoko Kirigiri}
{DragonEater70}

[Ranger]

Would town!ranger consider me questioning this - pressing on - and doing this vote scum indicative?

No, she wouldn't.

I've a different reason for thinking you're scum.

In part, you asking this question supports my

actual

reason for thinking you're scum.

I just cant see any thinking connection there for you to reach that conclusion to lower me in your list for pushing you.

Easy answer; it wasn't because of you pushing me. It was something else.

[Ranger]

How confident are you on KKFC? He's pretty nullish for me

All of my reads except on you are fairly fluid at this point. I'm both very sure, yet not sure at all on KKFC. Within the framework of my reads, I'm very confident in KatyKimFanClub being town. I saw the scumgame and this game doesn't resemble it. I have hard town vibes. I like KKFC's content. I'm as sure as I can be right now.

[Ranger]

then would you mind elaborating on this "reason" you have for scum reading me or making up something fast about it in your next post? cause you only have a limited time to convince me this interaction is not fake af and is just because you're scum, and essentially force me to tunnel you.

Quite simply,
Most of your reads and takes are very easy. You're making very easy takes. Perhaps the closest you have to a non-consensus take is DragonEater being town; even this is, per your alleged place in the thread, a consensus read because up until a few pages ago, DragonEater was seen widely as town.

Your focus on me is forced. Your decision I couldn't be a traitor and must therefore be some form of 3p is from a scum mindset, because town players don't focus on 3ps; scum do. You've largely abandoned your catchup, yet appear to still be informed about things which you shouldn't be if you had abandoned it.

If I'm not a traitor, the options are {groupscum, 3p, town}. If groupscum, then the question becomes what kind of groupscum needs to signal. Admittedly, url=viewtopic.php?p=13622223&f=90&t=90209&u ... #p13622223]I've signaled to the other scumteam as scum before[/url]. You allegedly wouldn't have knowledge of this, so you shouldn't have thought groupscum signaling to groupscum.

If 3p, then why the focus on 3ps on D1? 3ps aren't scum.

If town, then why focus on me at all? Town players with something to hide are still, fundamentally, town.

Your decision to focus on me is vastly +scum, because there's no "gotcha scum" which can result from the push. It's forced aggression. You're pursuing something you're aware looks good, yet could never result in anything tangibly beneficial to the town. It's opportunistic, because of the players having mounting doubts about me.

And simply put; if you were town, I wouldn't expect you to focus on something meaningless which is self-evidently fruitless, rather than pursuing players on their reads and stated reasons.

[Ranger]

Then there is your refusal to elaborate anything - but not just that - your refusal to even node along that it was true.

Yeah, I don't believe in giving information needlessly.

How are my reads easy? I actually think I'm being quite perceptive in this game - digging things that everyone else missed to even mention once including with your slot.

Your 'digging' is giving additional reasons for largely group consensus takes at the time.

It's suspiciously like pandering. You're expected to give insight. Your given insight is entirely things which look good, yet provide nothing tangible.

Yes my focus on you is

forced

. by myself. You're odd and not towny. which makes it very rewarding for town!me to figure you out and town!ranger would never argue against that.

I'm aware Kyoko Kirigiri will focus on players when town.

So, too, is a scum-Kyoko aware of this.


I believe your push is specifically your scum-self attempting a mimic of your townplay. I believe it's scum-Kirigiri-mimicking rather than a genuine town-Kyoko because the push has fundamental issues in ways I don't believe a town-Kirigiri would have.

[Ranger]

also need to add this that traitor and lawyer are not only scenarios for a scum!ranger to signal to another slot. "There are many other reasons to do so" in mech interactions that aren none for town.

Sure! I literally provided one of my own. (I've signaled opposite scumteam before.)

I'm working from your

given

reasons.

This doesn't feel like traitor actually. Its more like lawyer interaction (as you need drew to win to win kinda deal) and layers stick to their clients so hard so they recognize them and not kill em. But I'm also seeing it in various other ways that are quite unsettling.

You specified, "this doesn't feel like traitor".
You didn't speculate what scum besides traitor it was.
You jumped immediately and exclusively to the 3p role.

I believe a town-Kyoko

would

have explored the other scum reasons.

If there were truly no reasons from town, and if it were truly not a traitor, then the remainder would be scum or 3p. Not exclusively 3p.

[Ranger]

and I'm fairly confident a town!ranger would not drop me in their read list in that fashion for being called out for the signaling

Correct. Calling out perceived signaling doesn't affect my reads. The action's one usually from town.


My reasons are different.

Your catchup looks like an imitation of your towngame, rather than the genuine article. I've more reasons for believing this than simply your "Ranger = 3p" conclusion. That you made the jump to 3p

does

contribute, yet is not the totality.

[Ranger]

Correct. Calling out perceived signaling doesn't affect my reads. The action's one usually from town.

Clarifying; the action's usually from town, yet doesn't affect my reads because scum also know the action's usually from town. I meant to specify this necessitates reviewing each case to determine if it's from town or from scum wanting towncred. For Kyoko Kirigiri, I believe the latter.

[Ranger]

I'm not sure what you mean my takes are easy.

Not having provided readslists doesn't mean not providing reads.

You've spent the entire game labeling actions as +(number) scum / +(number) town. That's reads. Reads which match consensus, and have reasons that look good yet provide no value.

which is an elaborated matter to get a read on her and both are far from "easy"

Pushing me is still easy.

There was mounting suspicion on my slot, in part driven by refusal to respond to rolefishing. (More on that when I respond to 911.)

The avenue of attack is also easy. Your attack isn't based on my reads. It's not based on my content. It's based off a perceived breadcrumb, and then not following the logic to its natural conclusion.
If I were a traitor signaling to Doctor Drew, it would mean Doctor Drew was scum, ergo, flip Drew first. If I am not a traitor and am 3p tied to Doctor Drew, then if Doctor Drew is town then I would presumably be harmless; if I am not a traitor and am tied to Doctor Drew, then if Doctor Drew isn't town flip Doctor Drew; if I am town, then pushing me isn't productive to the town; if I am scum signaling about Doctor Drew, then...well you need to figure out why I would be so blatant, what the motive would be, etc.

You didn't follow the logic to its natural conclusion. I posit, because you weren't interested in following the logic to its natural conclusion. You were interested in making a point which appeared logical and gave an avenue of attack, yet left it incomplete in a way I believe is +scum. It looked plausibly town on the surface, yet I don't see a town-you having realized there was no productive outcome from the line of questioning.

[Ranger]

In terms of Kirigiri, I like her entrance, and I strongly disagree that she's just taking "easy" stances. Semi-recently I spent like half a game trying to push a Traitor, after correctly realizing one existed and who it was, but no one would listen to me about it and it was a major contributing factor to us losing. I don't think that's the angle scum tries to take if they're going for easy, non-controversial pushes.

The issue with this; Kyoko herself doesn't think I'm a traitor.

Kyoko wasn't the first to notice the Drew puns.

There was grounds for scum to have mentioned it in the scum PT. Scum are usually watching for breadcrumbs more than town. Scum, looking for breadcrumbs, could've seen the same, or at least usesPython's comments, and believed it had merit. A scum-Kyoko, having access to the scum PT, would have access to her scumbuddies' speculations.

Kyoko Kirigiri's push on me appears like she already knew about the potential breadcrumbs in advance of having started the push.
Given she doesn't think I'm a traitor, yet given she thinks I'm worth pushing (suggesting not town), this is not a push which I can see from town.

[Ranger]

For now I trust the DragonEater scumread and have enough trust in Doctor Drew to not have him be a top scumread.

?! who was even scum reading him did I missed something in skim?

Apparently, as I've explained both my DragonEater and Doctor Drew reads in relation to gut.

[Ranger]

and for people who cant follow that line of thinking: in ranger mind, being questioned for signaling drew name in early game = being questioned for being responsible to force drew in nightmare
that is a conscious that equates those two jobs means it was her doing.

Actually, it's this:
Being questioned for signaling Drew's name = being rolefished;
Being questioned for being responsible for forcing Drew into the nightmare = being rolefished.

My response to one form of rolefishing is apt to a different form of rolefishing because both are rolefishing.

[Ranger]

and I think town!ranger would understand her "puns" are perceived as signaling

Oh, certainly. I like to have fun. Confusing people is fun (within reason).

It's notably not the act of seeing perceived signaling which I find suspect.

It's the way the perceived signaling was approached by Kyoko I find suspect.

This just makes drew interesting cause it seems ranger is also not sure what is drew but her skills are somewhat directed on him?

Congratulations; you've goaded me into providing more information than I was going to give.

Let me be clear, then.

I am town.

As I am town, I've no ties to Doctor Drew at all.

I have no information on him whatsoever. He's not in my role PM in any way, shape, or form.

I have to form my own read on Doctor Drew.

Ironically, I actually think there's a reasonably high chance

Doctor Drew

is 3p. I see signs of both his scumplay and his townplay this game. I currently think the latter stronger than the former, yet it wouldn't surprise me to see any flip from Doctor Drew rn. Since the evidence for him not being scum's currently stronger for me, I've no interest in voting him atm.

[Ranger]

and her way of reacting to questions about it and how she was signaling was also anti town as it dragged for so long.

This is a nice narrative you're pushing.
It doesn't seem reflective of reality.

My stance has been rather clear.

I've no qualms with saying no, either lying or telling the truth.

I prefer not giving an answer, because not giving an answer is giving the least amount of information. Rolefishing is rolefishing; I'm disinclined to give rolefishers what they want.

I like to have fun. Doctor Drew puns were having fun.

The discussion is also far from fruitless. It has contributed to a strengthened townread on Radical Rat, a mild increase in my belief Doctor Drew isn't scum, a further increase in my usesPython townread, and notably a rather strong scumread on you. These are all things I wouldn't have gotten if I simply said, "no, I didn't put Doctor Drew in the nightmare" to RR, and I wouldn't have gotten if I said "this wasn't a breadcrumb". (Or their inverses.)

I've no interest in continuing the talk as I am not the one who keeps initiating it. Still, it has produced value for me if nobody else, in giving me additional information I otherwise wouldn't have.

[Ranger]

Well in that case, you're not doing what I thought you were doing, and now I'm just more confused.

I'll say it as clearly as I can to you as well.

I'm town; I've no ties to Doctor Drew.

I refuse to comment on rolefishing, though were I to comment, I'd likely say 'no' regardless of if it were true.

Your logic for excluding me has holes in it which usesPython touched upon. There's a preexisting assumption required for your logic to remain internally consistent. Remove the preexisting assumption, and your logic for excluding me doesn't hold. My lack of explaining the logical flaw isn't me refusing to elaborate and/or anything role-related. That's quite simply, I see the hole in the logic in my brain yet can't find the words to adequately explain it. I was hoping by simply pointing you in the direction, you could work it out in your mind.

[Ranger]

On the other hand that was a weird push to make, I don't think Ranger/Drew was a traitor interaction or should have been read as potentially being such, I'm fairly certain Ranger would have been a lot more subtle about it if that was the case. Reading them as Lawyer/Savior and then pushing them for that is... also odd. While Lawyer/Savior definitely isn't town, it also... isn't necessarily even helping scum if that was the case. And even if so, the proper play would have been to

vote or push drew

I believe if that was your read.

Precisely.

[Ranger]

I'm kind of stuck here tbh. I'm admittedly cooling a bit on Rauth, Ranger's probably just Town after all, and nothing else has really screamed scum at me yet. Rauth's still topping the charts for me, so I guess I'm staying put, but it bothers me that by this point in a game this large I don't have anything better to go off of.

Have you perhaps considered it's because scum are largely encouraging you or staying on the sidelines, rather than directly opposing you?

[Ranger]

{usesPython}
{Radical Rat, Abnegation, KatyKimFanclub}, Rautherdir}
{Doctor Drew}
{Morning Tweet, camelCasedSnivy}
{sheepsaysmeep}
{Save The Dragons}
{Flea The Magician}
{Random Nurse}
{Titus}
{WhemeStar}
{Aureal}
{Merlyn}
{Kyoko Kirigiri}
{DragonEater70}

Would vote anyone from Flea below. {Merlyn, Kyoko Kirigiri, DragonEater70} are actually strong scumreads, rest are south of null by indeterminable amount.

[Ranger]

{usesPython}
{Radical Rat, Abnegation, KatyKimFanclub, Rautherdir}
{Doctor Drew}
{Morning Tweet, camelCasedSnivy}
{sheepsaysmeep}
{Save The Dragons}
{Flea The Magician}
{Random Nurse}
{Titus}
{WhemeStar}
{Aureal}
{Merlyn}
{Kyoko Kirigiri}
{DragonEater70}

Would vote anyone from Flea below. {Merlyn, Kyoko Kirigiri, DragonEater70} are actually strong scumreads, rest are south of null by indeterminable amount.

Small addendum; I'd also vote STD, but he's null.

I realize I've ~3ish more names south of null than ideal. I've strong townreads in top 2 tiers, and beyond those, nobody's as town as I'd prefer. Still, I don't think I can do better off of what I have rn.

[Ranger]

just curious, what did I even do to get up there??

I've liked your overall content. It's not strong enough to top the charts, yet your posting has shown a mindset I believe +town. I generally don't name tiers; were I to, you'd loosely be 'lean town' (above nulltown, yet not strong enough a townread to be labeled 'townread').

[Ranger]

Suddenly I am overcome with the urge to trust Drew unconditionally

I actually am.

did you ever talk about that merlyn sr? if not, could you?

Sure. Merlyn is THE slot I'm talking about in exploiting Radical Rat. It doesn't display well in iso, yet most of her content is directly reflective of what RR's discussing at the time. Merlyn's given no content I've thought town, looks like scum, and has taken stances which I feel are taking advantage of town accusing town. Merlyn's contributions have been lackluster, and when the town's had its more lighthearted moments, Merlyn's contributions to them has felt forced. Both her hop onto Rauth as well as her hop off Rauth were suspect.

{usesPython}
{Radical Rat, Abnegation, KatyKimFanclub, Rautherdir, Doctor Drew}
{Morning Tweet, camelCasedSnivy}
{sheepsaysmeep}
{Save The Dragons}
{Flea The Magician}
{Random Nurse}
{Titus}
{WhemeStar}
{Aureal}
{Merlyn}
{Kyoko Kirigiri}
{DragonEater70}

[Ranger]

My head is super fucked here because I don't get what's going on. It's possible this is all a level but idk?

I can help solve the riddle;

My read on Doctor Drew is, and always has been, unrelated to his being confirmed to the nightmare. My read on Doctor Drew is, and always has been, unrelated to my decision to make Doctor Drew puns. My reads on all players are fluid. My read on Doctor Drew in particular has gone over the entire spectrum. I started with a gut-townread. I then doubted this, and saw signs he was playing to a scum meta. After I spotted signs he was town again, I thought him town. Now, most of my scumreads have had very telling reactions which imo paint Doctor Drew as likely town. Furthermore, his recent posting I actually

Drew

trust as town.

Doctor Drew being confirmed to the nightmare didn't factor into my reads. My read on him has fluctuated, but is exclusively off the content I've read.

[Ranger]

Not buying a lot of the logic related to traitor/lawyer signaling. Way more indicative ways to do it in a game with two voting mechanisms, imo?

Yes, that's one of the issues with Kyoko Kirigiri's focus there. She said it herself. It's blatant, too obvious even.


I've provided my answer; it was me having fun.

This answer is insufficient for her, yet the entire narrative she's selling has no logical conclusion making it worth pushing continuously.

[Ranger]

Not buying a lot of the logic related to traitor/lawyer signaling. Way more indicative ways to do it in a game with two voting mechanisms, imo?

it almost feels too obvious to me.

Yeah, because it wasn't signaling.

I decided to have fun with a minor Doctor Drew emphasis. Just 'cuz.

I've already shared more than I intended by stating I've no ties to Doctor Drew. So, since I've stated my puns were for fun and I've no ties to Doctor Drew, then either players can believe me, or they're calling me a liar. If they're calling me a liar, they need to explain their logic for it. The logic Kyoko Kirigiri is demonstrating doesn't hold up.

[Ranger]

Hi I’m still basically Vla but I was like fck it ima just sheep Ranger but they’ve been voting the same person since post #1 and that’s kinda Sussy to me Ranger

My strong gut scumread hasn't magically vanished, and nobody else I want wagoned has momentum.

[Ranger]

I started townreading too many ppl idk where scum is supposed to be

As it so happens, I've too many scumreads. Perhaps we can have a middle ground.

Those I'd vote:
{Save The Dragons}
{Flea The Magician}
{Random Nurse}
{Titus}
{WhemeStar}
{Aureal}
{Merlyn}
{Kyoko Kirigiri}
{DragonEater70}

[Ranger]

... Doesn't feel like town or scum would logically suggest 3p wouldn't it. That... would make sense.

If Kyoko thinks it's signalling then bring it to the logical conclusion (assume Drew is town for this):

• town!Kyoko doesn't know Drews alignment so it could be traitor signaling scum or 3p signaling their target
  
• scum!Kyoko knows Drew isn't scum so therefore it can't be traitor signaling scum -> must be 3p signaling their target

it's TMI

Hmm actually on a second read through there was talk about it being traitor!Ranger for like 20 minutes

Yes, and then instead of concluding traitor, town, or some weird scum with a need to signal, Kyoko

did

jump, and stay, on the 3p theory, despite the flaws in the idea. (How a 3p relating to Doctor Drew would make Doctor Drew be who to focus on, not me.)

Kyoko Kirigiri's push was designed to appear insightful and engaged, yet doesn't hold to scrutiny.

[Ranger]

Now tell me is this analysis "easy", "digging unnecessary" or "anti town"?

It is easy, digging unnecessarily, and anti-town.

It's a meaningless nothingness push, and still contains the same logical flaws previously provided.

If I am scum, then you don't have an explanation for the signaling. One could exist, yet the burden is on you the accuser to bring forward evidence I did, because I've stated it was me having fun.

If I am a traitor, then it was blatant signaling, in a way you've consistently said you believe I'm not. If I were, it would imply Doctor Drew as scum, leaving him the focus, yet you didn't pursue him; you kept your focus on me.

If I am a 3p, then I would be a 3p who is somehow tied to Doctor Drew. If so, then Doctor Drew should still be the focus, yet you didn't pursue him.

If I am town, and I am, then the entire pursuit is pointless and meaningless. The goal of town is to eliminate all threats to them. Regardless of how "weird", regardless of how "strange", the alleged signaling is, if I am town (and I am), then focusing on the supposed signaling is

not furthering the town win condition

.

You've written a bunch of words to justify yourself. Yet none which address the fundamental issue with the push being you're not following it to any of its possible logical conclusions.

I've said I'm town.
I've said I've no information on Doctor Drew whatsoever, and he isn't in my role PM at all.
I've said my puns were me having fun.

You've been focused on this since getting into the game, yet given both my statements and the lack of following the points to the logical conclusion, your push provides no tangible benefit. It's a distraction. It gives something for you to easily appear to give effort to, because putting time into a nothingness point is easy.

You and me both know that no action or reaction in a mafia game is a town or scum tell on its own. everyone can fake anything or be real about anything at any time. Its about seeing the mind set that's behind those actions and reactions and to see if its used for solve or not.

Yeah, sure is. I've rather extensively laid out why I believe your mindset is scum trying to appear town.

Your stated reads are largely consensus reads. Your 'insights' into various topics are easy to give without actually providing a tangible benefit to the town. You're not following your pushes to their logical conclusions. You're demonstrating knowledge you shouldn't have. You're continuing to push the same narrative, despite posts from multiple users calling your reasoning out and pointing out the flaws within.

Subjectively, I know you're not furthering the town's wincon with your Ranger push, yet even objectively the flaws within demonstrate even not knowing my alignment, your push on me

just isn't good

. Also subjectively, I've seen the pushes you've made as town and I always understood why you made them, because there was logic being followed to an ultimate conclusion; here, that's absent.

I'd say that demonstrates your actions are more likely from scum.

[Ranger]

Also can you update your nightmare vote to not include people you're actively scumreading?

Oops. Missed Aureal was in there.

HEAL: prior proposal

HURT: Doctor Drew, Ranger, usesPython, Abnegation, KatyKimFanclub, Rautherdir, Radical Rat, sheepsaysmeep, Morning Tweet, camelCasedSnivy

[Ranger]

My strong gut scumread hasn't magically vanished, and nobody else I want wagoned has momentum.

Rauth wagon's getting stale. I'll sheep, who do you want wagoned rn?

Honestly, any of:

Those I'd vote:
{Save The Dragons}
{Flea The Magician}
{Random Nurse}
{Titus}
{WhemeStar}
{Aureal}
{Merlyn}
{Kyoko Kirigiri}
{DragonEater70}

I'll say of them, only {Merlyn, Kyoko Kirigiri, DragonEater70} are strong scumreads.

Aureal's largely feeling something's off, yet not strongly. WhemeStar's not looking town. Random Nurse has given nothing in a potentially suspect way. Flea's limited content hasn't been good, yet Flea's currently absent. STD's null. Titus, need to read her most recent content, her placement may change.

[Ranger]

My vote on you was to solve your slot. My initial take was that the signaling is odd and can be traitor like interaction, then

it gave me vibe of a lawyer like interaction and as I caught up on your iso that second feeling improved

.

Why me following up on this is me going after 3p over scum?

I'll save myself the effort of typing out words and merely point to the bolded as an answer.

Now The main question here is why are "you" not scum hunting?

If I've not been scumhunting, that's news to me.

Last I knew I've been sorting players the entire game and currently have eight players south of null. I've explained most of those reads.

That is weird. How would town you with an skill relating drew would not want drew sorted first?

Easy answer; I've no skill relating to Doctor Drew this game.

I've also put time into sorting Doctor Drew, quite a bit actually.

[Ranger]

Why ten people? Should we not be minimizing the number of people we put in, since more people increases the odds of scum slipping through? Are you really THAT confident in your townreads this early?

My thinking is that in an ideal world we would have all Town and no scum in the nightmare, but since D1 reads are... not usually great... This way we can at least guarantee the majority of the Town gets in, AND we have more meaningful content to form reads going into D2. :P

Specifically, while I believe scum would likely have counterplay to every player being put in, putting a large group of strongly townread players in the nightmare could provide insight, revealing if there

are

scum within, potentially narrowing it down from "scum are in the entire playerlist" to "scum are in this group previously thought widely town".

Everyone I put in, I'm fairly comfortable calling town.

I'm town.
usesPython is my strongest townread.
I strongly believe Doctor Drew's town (not that we have a choice).
I strongly believe you're town.
I strongly believe Rautherdir's town.
I don't think KatyKimFanClub looks like scum.
While I've doubts about Abnegation when not viewing posts, every time I view Abnegation's posts I ask myself "why isn't Abnegation higher in my reads list?", and consistently Abnegation always looks town.

If need be, I'd reduce to those.

Yet Morning Tweet's contributions are comfortably town, and so too are camelCasedSnivy's.

sheepsaysmeep weakly looks town, too.

I'm as confident as I can be in my nominees being solid. For D1 reads, I actually think mine are really good.

[Ranger]

and I was sure of that part so I went out and asked her about it - that she completely refuted and linked her response to rat about if she is the one who forced drew in nightmare instead - which to me is a signal of her mental note that the two events are one. as the signaling and the force nightmare are related in some way.

and for people who cant follow that line of thinking: in ranger mind, being questioned for signaling drew name in early game = being questioned for being responsible to force drew in nightmare
that is a conscious that equates those two jobs means it was her doing.

Actually, it's this:
Being questioned for signaling Drew's name = being rolefished;
Being questioned for being responsible for forcing Drew into the nightmare = being rolefished.

My response to one form of rolefishing is apt to a different form of rolefishing because both are rolefishing.

[Ranger]

Can we just IC Ranger/Kyoko

I don't want to be IC'd.

I'd rather be wagoned, honestly.

I'm confident in my ability to demonstrate my alignment without a need for outside role assistance.

I'd begrudgingly accept Kyoko, although imo, the best targets are likely successes we'd find useful, rather than likely failures.

[Ranger]

why would scum me push on something someone else found randomly in such fashion?

You need to push something. Every push you've made this game has already been off the back of the preexisting work of others. I don't think your scumplay is bad. Your nothingness reads have been great at generating townreads on you. I simply think those nothingness reads aren't your townplay.

Now you can't claim people questioning it is "role fishing" and scummy.

I never did. Questioning it was fine. When Morning Tweet and usesPython both inquired, I didn't scumread them. Instead, I provided an answer sufficient to everyone. I felt like making the pun for fun. I already did ease people's minds. You, after I had done so, focused on it. You took it further and specifically demanded to know if it was role-related. As with Radical Rat's rolefishing, I denied yours.

[Ranger]

Why didn't you try to sort drew and why did you force him in nightmare if you're uncertain of his alignment?

I did sort Doctor Drew.

For all I've revealed, I still refuse to specify if I put him in the nightmare. You're not getting an answer from me. That I've said I have nothing in my role PM relating to Doctor Drew this game is all you get.

[Ranger]

also why would say he isnt scum or 3p and then say there is a high chance he is 3p.

I never said "he isn't scum or 3p". I said if I were 3p it'd be nearly certain he wouldn't also be 3p; I've laid out my reasons for believing he's not scum.

I've reasonable suspicion he's a decent chance to be 3p, because of the earlier scum pings yet the more town pings present recently. Still, since he's either town or 3p, he's not groupscum and therefore not a focus. My reasons for believing he's not groupscum are fairly strong.

I believe he's demonstrated aspects of his towngame.
I believe his mindset matches that of a town player.
I believe other players I'm scumreading have spewed him as not being their scumbuddy.
I additionally had a gut townread on him early, telling me he was worth trusting.

On D1, that's sufficient enough.

[Ranger]

While I vehemently object to the argument of emulation as it looks like an excuse to deny meta

Let me clarify.

Every* scum player has at least some passing awareness of their play as town.
Every* scum player has at least some passing effort to mimic their townplay.
Every* scum player still has clear town/scum metas, despite the above. Because,
Every* scum player's efforts to mimic their townplay is imperfect, for varying reasons.

*not actually every; this is me simplifying to make a point clearer

My belief in Kyoko Kirigiri being scum is not

despite

meta.
My belief in Kyoko Kirigiri being scum is in part

because

of meta.

My point is Kyoko Kirigiri's trying to mimic her towngame. As this is an accusation, the burden of proving it's an imitation and not the real thing does lie on me.

I've provided why I believe it's the imitation and not the real thing. The consensus takes, along with not following logic to its natural conclusion, and making a push which provides no benefit to the town. Kyoko Kirigiri's content is one gigantic effort to appear town, yet is giving nothing demonstrating actual town thought.

[Ranger]

Your posting feels like it's trying to avoid giving townreads.

I've townreads on nine of the players in this game and have described most of those townreads.

Mind clarifying how I've avoided giving townreads?

{usesPython}
{Radical Rat, Abnegation, KatyKimFanclub, Rautherdir, Doctor Drew}
{Morning Tweet, camelCasedSnivy}
{sheepsaysmeep}

All of these are town to me. I've been rather clear about this.

[Ranger]

I'm convinced, you're objectively nitpicking stuff from my push on you to make it sound bad

I've no need to make what's bad sound bad when it's already bad.

It's neat you bring up nitpicking though considering you've been doing that to me.

When I don't answer you, it's because I've already answered you previously. For instance, I've repeatedly explained my DragonEater read; I've repeatedly answered your Drew inquiry and demonstrated my read on him. I've repeatedly stated I'm not answering to rolefishing; I've repeatedly shared I've no information whatsoever on Doctor Drew. You've conveniently neglected to acknowledge them.
When you don't answer me, it's because I made a point which is inconvenient for your narrative.

If you had actually read the game, you wouldn't be continuously asking points I've already addressed. So clearly, either you've not read the game or you have and are leaving out the parts you don't want to deal with.

[Ranger]

so how is that scum hunting?

Well considering the only thing on your list I actually am guilty of is not moving my vote: quite a lot.

I've provided reasons for all of my reads when asked, and sometimes even when not. My reads were ahead of group consensus and likely helped form it in the first place. I've repeatedly reached out to players to work with them, and have pushed why I believe key players are town/scum.

If you say otherwise, then others may judge the debate simply by viewing my iso.

I like my odds of them siding with me.

also there is absolutely no world you can say "yeah drew is town or has a high chance to be 3p" and "I have no mech relation to drew" in same day

What happened to "Ranger didn't scumhunt", Kyoko?

I can have Drew as a high chance to be town or at worst 3p despite lacking any mech on Drew by virtue of one simple thing; I sorted him. That I have Drew as likely town is evidence I've been scumhunting.

[Ranger]

can you just clearly write down "i have no role information about alignment of drew" " my own read on drew is this/that"
the way you post this makes it impossible to separate your read on him and what it seems to be sorting of an information.

That's an issue existing only in your narrative as I've been rather unambiguous.

I've no desire to provide any role information.
However, I did provide the information I have nothing in my role PM about Doctor Drew. He's not featured in any way shape or form.
I've a townread on him from a combination of seeing his town meta, believing those I've scumreads on spew him town, and gut.

This has always been the case, clear as day.

[Ranger]

I just saw stuff that needed clarification and 10 pages later we're still on square one regarding them.

Yeah--because the issue was one which is a meaningless distraction providing no useful information to the town.

And has been clearly so from the minute anyone would've bothered working through the hypotheticals to their logical conclusion.

Glad to see you're admitting I was correct though.

[Ranger]

You cant drop all those stuff in the thread and not claim what they mean.

Sure! I claimed they were because I wanted to have some fun. That's my claim to what they mean.

This was a sufficient answer to Morning Tweet and usesPython.

I wonder how those two differ from you?

[Ranger]

I don't have conclusions! It's day 1 and we're just building up the wagons/pressures to get stuff going. No one can have conclusions at this stage of game.

I realize there may be a difference in definitions for 'conclusions' so let me specify.

There's a difference between 'conclusions' as in, developed reads,
And 'conclusions' as in, reading a post, thinking it through, and realizing what it means.

You having not done the former isn't the issue.

You having not done the latter is. When I say you haven't followed the thread to its logical conclusion, what I mean is you are asking a question towards me which, if you put time into reasoning it out, you would realize was fruitless. You would then do one of the following: {not ask the question at all, note the thing you were going to ask about maybe or maybe not including your followthrough thoughts, ask it before having finished and then promptly realized the conclusion and separately note it's no longer an issue because you figured it out on your own}.

Instead, you've repeatedly put time into doubling down on the question, despite how following the question to its logical conclusion would lead to realizing it was pointless.

There's a difference between not having formed a conclusion on a player you're sorting (this, I would not have issue with),
And not having concluded the line of questioning after realizing the flaws of the question and why it's a fruitless avenue to pursue (what you have done).

You didn't drop me all the way down you kept me one square up

Yeah, because my reason for scumreading DragonEater70 remains stronger than my reason for scumreading you.

You've done a good job putting on a display of bravado showing town conviction. It's enough to warrant some level of doubts, in "maybe she is actually town". I still believe it faked, enough for you to remain my second-strongest scumread.

[Ranger]

wouldn't you call your own reads too safe and shallow

Considering I've objective proof people copied my reads after I made them? Nah.

[Ranger]

You never ever in any instances explained the dragon eater read so that's a lie.

70, 557, 558.

How hard was it to LITTERALY WRITE IN CLEAR WORDS I don't have a role interacting with drew and I have no info on him mechanically and that everything I say is based on my reads.

Quite easy, actually.

How hard was it for you to read that when I'd been saying it from the getgo?

When did I not answer you?

It's getting late, this would require me to go through every post I've made and check in relation to yours. Suffice to say, there's examples such as how you ignored 961 among others. To compile a full list would likely take two hours or so. I want to sleep before then. Come Tuesday, I'd be happy to deliver. (Reminder; V/LA Sunday+Monday.)

[Ranger]

Further more your attack on my initial reads calling them shallow was also example with my initial weak tr read/comment on dragon eater that was originally made by me saying that this looks like him being town. yet you even not talk about that take on its own so do you even care about your scumreads to evaluate them?

Gonna be honest; I've no clue what this is saying.

keeping vote parked on an empty slot since around day start

It's funny. You're not the only slot levying this accusation against me.

Considering I've made my stance fairly clear, that multiple have made this point is suspect.

In the case the accusers contain town, let me be clear.
I've a strong gut scumread on DragonEater70. This read has no reason, annoyingly enough. I trust it despite the lack of evidence. As he's my top scumread, he remains worthy of voting.

I'm willing to vote any scumread, and have provided a list of 9 players I'd vote.

So far, my vote remains on DragonEater70 because he's both the slot with the most votes in my pool, and the slot I've a strong scumread on.

I've reached out to players looking for support on the players I'd vote. I've discouraged players from voting Rautherdir. I've encouraged votes on players like DragonEater70, Merlyn, and recently Kyoko Kirigiri. I've not yet moved off DragonEater70 because he's still currently the slot with the most votes in my pool and my strongest scumread. There's been one vote on Merlyn and one vote on Kyoko Kirigiri; either of those getting two votes would see me swap over.

DragonEater70's not a bad vote just because I've voted him from the beginning of the game. If my vote's on scum, does it really matter if it doesn't budge? It might, if my vote were vanity and I were unwilling to budge, moving onto a different wagon.

Yet, I'm not vanity voting and I am willing to budge.

So the "Ranger hasn't moved her vote" angle is suspect.

[Ranger]

Why didn't you just say you wont talk about it

I did.

[Ranger]

Town play must be played by a code - furthering town wincondition which is finding scum (all accounts that can hurt town) and showing others you are doing exactly that. Softs can be from the town and most of time are - cause there is absoviously more scenarios for town to even attempt to soft.

Yeah, this demonstrates my point nicely. Town should further the town win condition which is finding scum.

I am town so pushing me isn't finding scum.
Furthermore, softs being town most of the time means pointing out a perceived soft is antitown.

When people had questions about it, I gave them the answer; I wanted to have fun. I declined to state if it was or wasn't a soft, yet the answer I was having fun was sufficient to satiate their curiosity. I made it clear, repeatedly, I wasn't going to talk about the perceived soft.

You've made it an obsession of yours to focus on this. Every time, my stance has been clear. "I decline to give information." Every time, you've invented elaborate reasons why this was insufficient an answer. You've obsessively focused over the perceived soft, when I've given plenty answers (I was having fun, I decline to say if I softed), and stated I refused on the grounds giving out information as town needlessly is anti-town.

Considering most players softing are town (and most who aren't town, are softing in ways to pretend to be town), pursuing a perceived soft after the player in question repeatedly refuses to comment further isn't furthering the town win condition. It can't find scum.

yet my scum read on you is about how your read on my slot is fake - IMO. and not the signaling thing on its own and I don't get why you seem to circle back to initial points about this if you're town instead of understanding where I'm putting down my feet and engaging me there.

From where I stand, you're the one who keeps circling back.

I explained why I have a scumread on you.
You insisted my scumread on you was OMGUS focused on your push on me from the perceived breadcrumbs, and that I had no other reasons and that I continue to circle back to the initial perceived breadcrumb reason.
You insisted your scumread on me wasn't based on the perceived breadcrumb, but rather my alleged OMGUS, for the above.

Yet my reasons for scumreading you aren't OMGUS and aren't based on the perceived breadcrumb push.

And you keep circling back to the argument, despite my stance being clear.

[Ranger]

wouldn't you call your own reads too safe and shallow

Considering I've objective proof people copied my reads after I made them? Nah.

how is other sheeping your read make your read not shallow? what?

Well my reads have been very fluid, constantly changing. I've given reasons backing most of my reads. Players' reads on players largely shifted in response to my shifts. Given the fluidity of my reads and given my explanations, I think that gives fairly clear evidence my reads have enough depth to be meaningfully deep.

[Ranger]

there is absolutely no thinking process behind the read, no engagement, not a single question, not a single talk with even other slots about that read of yours.

Actually, I did talk about it. I generally don't repeat points though, so after I talked about it once, I didn't see a need to say the same thing again.

I have a very strong gut scumread on DragonEater70.
This read has no objective reasoning, and even has some doubts to it. Others insist this is him as town, and the votes supporting the wagon are not promising.
Yet the gut read remains. I can't exactly make the gut read magically vanish. It's an inconvenience, yet it's there. I believe he's a good flip. I have no case beyond "trust my gutread", so I don't expect to realistically be followed. This won't stop me from continuing to call him scum, and continuing to provide reasons for my other scumreads.

Its more just a random vote dropped on a typical lhf regardless if he is town or scum.

This I can comment on.

I don't think DragonEater70 fits as low-hanging fruit. In my experience, he's a better player than that.

He's largely absent this game, which isn't ai imo. Still, he can get widely townread fairly easily when town and is far from an easy mislim. Were he actually an easy mislim, then a town player having a strong gut scumread on him, voting him, and dissuading players from voting a town mislim, would likely have gathered more support than it did.

You have been contradicting your drew instance multiple times.

I'm fairly certain those contradictions are called "read evolution".
My stance on Doctor Drew has been clear.
I've no role information about him. This has always been clear from the onset. Your narrative otherwise is yours alone and not reflective of reality.

I initially had a gut townread on him.
I then thought his contributions were closer to his scumgame.
Then, I saw signs of his towngame.
Now, I also believe he's been spewed town (or at least not groupscum) by those I think likely scum.
I maintain it's possible he's 3p, because of the potential red flags I saw. So any alignment flip from him wouldn't surprise me. Town, scum, 3p, all possible. Yet with what I have, I believe he's not scum. He's demonstrating strong signs of being town, and if I had to guess I would say town. Even if 3p, on D1 3p aren't a focus, so as long as he's not groupscum, he's to be treated as town because he's either town or 3p and there's a fairly high chance he's just town.

This is all fairly clear to every player in the game--except apparently, you.

[Ranger]

convince me dragon eater is scum if you want my vote there.

I have a very strong gut scumread on DragonEater70; can you please trust me? :P

You said merlyn in your third scum read. same about him.

1071, backed by 777.

[Ranger]

no your initial response to me was that you made them just for fun and puns - then you linked to the post where you said you will not talk about it
which are two completely contradictory responses

Well there's your problem. You're calling the responses contradictory when they're the same response.

Stating they were puns for fun was my way of not commenting on it.
Stating I will not talk about it was also my way of not commenting on it.

They're two halves of the same approach. Not two contradictory ones. I provided the answer the puns were for fun. I provided the answer I refuse to give information to rolefishers on policy.

Both

are saying "I decline to say if these were breadcrumbs". AKA, "I won't talk about it".

You're actually correct though. It

was

to make you go away--because as I've been rather clear about: focusing on perceived breadcrumbs isn't +town. I didn't want wasted time, effort, or pages on what I knew to be a meaningless subject, because it couldn't help the town to discuss. Making players go away from the subject I knew wasn't productive to pursue, was my goal. I'm definitely guilty of that!

I wonder who made it not happen?

[Ranger]

Also Kyoko v Ranger is probably a battle that's not gonna end and I doubt its TvT

You

doubt

it's TvT?

As in, you believe there's nontown involved?

Care to share your thoughts on who the nontown is?

[Ranger]

{usesPython}
{Radical Rat, Abnegation, KatyKimFanclub, Rautherdir, Doctor Drew}
{Morning Tweet, camelCasedSnivy}
{sheepsaysmeep}
{Save The Dragons}
{Flea The Magician}
{Random Nurse, WhemeStar, Aureal}
{Titus}
{Kyoko Kirigiri}
{Merlyn}
{DragonEater70}

Best I've got right now.
Kyoko Kirigiri's posts have definitely improved, and I see more signs of a potential town mindset. However, a large part of me believes she entered this debate with an agenda, and while I see the town mindset, I still lean scum overall.

Titus's catchup I initially caught at a glance and had as hard-scum, yet when reviewing it in full it was less definitive. I still lean scum on her as her takes seem slightly +scum, yet she's no slam-dunk scumread.

WhemeStar and Aureal are both lackluster in ways I think +scum, yet I see signs of town and the scum indicators are weak. Random Nurse is clearly out of their depth regardless, so the question becomes out-of-depth-town or out-of-depth-scum. I lean the latter from what they

have

given.

[Ranger]

Reminder; I'm V/LA until Tuesday. You're unlikely to hear from me today, although tomorrow I may be able to catch up.

As promised,
VOTE: Merlyn

I'll need a full catch-up honestly to properly sort {Flea, DragonEater, Aureal, Merlyn, Kyoko Kirigiri, Titus} among others (these are the main ones I saw a need for sorting). Struggling to rn from skim.

[Ranger]

^Also Random Nurse

[Ranger]

Some quick thoughts;
Most extended fights are usually TvT. There’s evidence my back and forth with Kyoko Kirigiri might be one, both from her approach and from the stances others (particularly suspect individuals) have taken. However, earlier I did specify my trust in scum-Kyoko's competency. She’s known for prolonged battles usually with town. I need to weigh the odds of genuine TvT vs. Kyoko Kirigiri entering one to mimic her townplay, as well as providing a convenient smokescreen.

Everything DragonEater70 posts demonstrates good, thoughtful analysis. Though such contributions can come from scum, the level of effort required is unnecessary. I need to weigh my gut scumread versus the doubts born from his play.

{Aureal, Merlyn, Kyoko Kirigiri} all look scum to me, yet don’t particularly look partnered. Some of them have anti-partner associatives. I need to explore those.

Titus may be slightly better.
Similarly so for Flea.
The "StD walls as scum" meta's outdated, though I do think he's not TRULY null. I'd more accurately called him nulltown.

Reminder, I’m likely unavailable until tomorrow at earliest.

[Ranger]

did you ever talk about that merlyn sr? if not, could you?

Sure. Merlyn is THE slot I'm talking about in exploiting Radical Rat. It doesn't display well in iso, yet most of her content is directly reflective of what RR's discussing at the time. Merlyn's given no content I've thought town, looks like scum, and has taken stances which I feel are taking advantage of town accusing town. Merlyn's contributions have been lackluster, and when the town's had its more lighthearted moments, Merlyn's contributions to them has felt forced. Both her hop onto Rauth as well as her hop off Rauth were suspect.

You said merlyn in your third scum read. same about him.

1071, backed by 777.

[Ranger]

I'm fairly certain players aren't giving credit to me where it's due this game. I've been ahead of the curb at nearly every stage.

I was the one who brought up the mechanical reason for not putting everyone in, and people followed it after I brought it up.
I was the one who brought up Rautherdir was likely a town mislim off the back of players like Radical Rat, and people followed it after I brought it up.
Most of my reads, you've objective evidence I was the first to have, yet after forming them suddenly everyone had them. Examples include my DragonEater70 scumread, Titus read, Flea read, Aureal suspicion, and countless more.
Including the entire reason we have a Meryl wagon in the first place being

I suspected her

.

Everyone's sheeping

my

case (which is off the back of my Rautherdir case, mind), and backing

my

wagon.

You can suspect me all you want.
Don't try to erase my contributions, for what they are.

[Ranger]

Reminder; brief pop-in now is all I can do. I'll be around before or on Tuesday; for now, this is all I can give.

Do try to remember where ideas came from though. You'll be surprised the number from me.

[Ranger]

{usesPython}
{Radical Rat, Abnegation, KatyKimFanclub, Rautherdir, Doctor Drew}
{Morning Tweet, camelCasedSnivy}
{sheepsaysmeep}
{Save The Dragons}
{DragonEater70}
{Flea The Magician}
{Random Nurse, Titus, Kyoko Kirigiri}
{WhemeStar, Aureal}
{Merlyn}

Temporary reads. I've too few scumreads (WhemeStar, Aureal, Merlyn}, so that means one of two things.
I'm townreading a deepwolf and the scumreads I'm reevaluating are town;
At least some of the scumreads I'm reevaluating are scum, despite my doubts.

Again, this is not a satisfactory readslist. I'll see what I can do to generate a better one after getting caught up.

[Ranger]

TownRanger doesn't put this much effort into defending herself.

I've no interest in defending myself from scumreads.

I've interest in defending my stances, including my right to claim credit where it's due. I've little interest in ego of "I was right!", yet I've

strong

distaste for erasure of contributions. Regardless of whether those contributions were +town or +scum, they should be remembered in full as what they were, and not removed from the record.

It's factual I've contributed more than I've been given credit for. Suspect me all you like. Don't pretend I wasn't responsible for things I was.

[Ranger]

If you lim me and then when I flip town, what kind of credit do you think you will deserve then?

The credit of being wrong; the credit of pushing through a mislim.

Credit's not just for

good

things; regardless of type, it should be given where due.

[Ranger]

done in a way you desensitise to seeing the statement.

Personally, I’ve found repeating a statement to the point players are desensitized to it a terrible way to inspire belief in it. The more it’s said, the less valuable it becomes to say.

I’ve certainly a distaste for repeatedly stating I’m town. I deemed it necessary in the circumstances owing to the "Ranger 3p"/"Ranger traitor" talk, because a hard statement of "I’m town" directly addresses the accusation. In hindsight, my judgment was likely erroneous and it wasn’t as needed as I believed.

I’ll repeat my sentiment of not needing to be given bulletproof IC for clearing and specify I certainly need no repeated statements of my alignment to be seen as town. The mod will do the talking for me.

[Ranger]

Ranger feels like the excuse people will give when things go sideways repeatedly and then miseliminate her.

Oh, certainly. It’s my expectation every game at this point. :P

[Ranger]

In a read I’m

behind

the curb on, I’ve come around to Titus = town.

The question is simply by how much, and this, I will answer when figuring out my next readslist.

[Ranger]

Yes: {Doctor Drew, Radical Rat, Ranger, usesPython, Abnegation, KatyKimFanClub, Rautherdir}

Maybe: {Morning Tweet, sheepsaysmeep, camelCasedSnivy, DragonEater70, Titus}

Compromise if needed: {Save The Dragons, Flea The Magician}

No: {Aureal, Kyoko Kirigiri, Merlyn, WhemeStar, Random Nurse}

[Ranger]

What is condemn and why whemestar

For what it’s worth, there’s a

very

high chance WhemeStar is scum here. I’m

fairly

certain this is his scumplay, although I’ve not verified.

I do get why people would object. He's a low-info elimination, and would explicitly be a compromise.

Should the Merlyn ever far apart, he'd be my first choice of alternatives.

Still, let’s not abandon a perfectly good wagon. I still believe Merlyn has a high chance of flipping scum.

[Ranger]

Btw I realize this is mechanical talk(derogatory) and the ship has long-since sailed, yet because I’m likely to die early, I should mention this;

I agree with the current plan of BP IC as optimal.

Should the need arise

for an alternative, my suggestion would be Loyal Rolecop.
Scum holding the role are largely boxed in. They can claim blocked, they can claim a result on a scumbuddy, yet the only way to generate a result on town is with an actual mafia rolecop. (I’ve reasons to doubt mafia have an ungated rolecop.)
Town using it can generate clears, which the cleared players can verify, effectively confirming both participants as town.
The weakness is scum blocking roles interfering.

Between the scum rcs and scum rbs, this is NOT the optimal role, imo; that's BP IC.
If ever there’s a need for an

alternative

, this is my suggestion.

Ignore this unless such a situation arises. I don’t want more mechanical talk. This is a "just in case" to suggest an emergency backup if the plan we have can’t work.

I like the current plan by default.

[Ranger]

This was about backups that we're talking about because.... why are we talking about backups? We already established it was legal, what the hell Ranger?

You're free to risk putting all eggs in one basket if you'd prefer.

I prefer otherwise.

As you've said, we've a decent plan which should work, and with reasonable backups if the suggestion were to for any reason not work, there's nothing more to say than what's been said.

[Ranger]

HURT: Radical Rat, usesPython, Abnegation, Doctor Drew, sheepsaysmeep, Ranger, Titus

[Ranger]

Ngl; I stopped posting because with me as inside the nightmare I believe all-town, my plan was to solve overnight and in the event I survived, adjust as needed and share everything still pertinent.

I felt providing the content today would've only further stalled us.

As there's now a counter-proposal excluding me, let me bargain further.

I was always intending this, just wasn't planning on

announcing

it. Support the 1498 proposal, and I'll claim in the Nightmare. Exclude me or put anyone who I don't trust in there, and I obviously won't.

[Ranger]

Where does this happen? Ranger spent the first like 1k posts this game just providing reads lists with little explanation

Coming to prior content I never commented on; I explain reads and their shift in readslists when asked.

Shifts in them are important and meaningful, regardless of whether I'm engaged on providing explanations.

For most readslists, even days later, I can say exactly what changed between two, even if I no longer have the same read.

[Ranger]

You trust Titus over Rauth? We've got 1618 if we're not doing democracy

Over Rauth? No, Titus is a weaker townread than Rautherdir.

I'm still okay with Titus present as I believe she's town.

[Ranger]

The problem with democracy is that I don't get what I personally want B(

The proposal I'd actually want would be a modified 1082 adding Titus in (as 1082 was prior to gaining a townread on her).

I don't really care about "seven names exactly", more than seven would be acceptable as long as all have a reasonably high chance of being town.

The names dropped between 1082 and 1498 are from a willingness to compromise. I

want

Rautherdir in; I'm willing to let him go, because the proposed names I still trust to all be town.

[Ranger]

Sure but from Aureals perspective it should have been chronologically impossible for her to conclude you couldn't be masons with Drew due to your effort spent sorting Drew because you didn't publicly do it until after Aureal expressed doubts about you being masons with Drew

Much as I suspect Aureal, my Doctor Drew read visibly shifted in my lists prior to publicly expressing reasons. That's enough to generate "not masons", so if Aureal's scum, it's not for this.

[Ranger]

• If you're looking for town you look for signs of towniness.
  
• If you're looking for 3p you look for signs of unaligned scumminess (which D1 will involve pre-flip associatives if you're not groupscum)
  
• If you're looking for groupscum you look for signs of aligned scumminess (which D1 will involve pre-flip associatives if you're not groupscum)

Ranger thinks Drew had some towniness and some scumminess and also has the people she's scumreading be pushing Drew both on and off wagon which would point to Drew being either 3p or Town

This is accurate, and as a reminder, is a large part of the Kyoko Kirigiri scumread.

[Ranger]

I'm processing 1635; I don't have further commentary rn yet wanted to acknowledge I've seen the point.

[Ranger]

It's a lot of words (in a post complaining about someone using a lot of words) to make the point "I'm town therefore pushing me is bad and suspicious." Which is crap. Because 1) everyone is going to say they're town but some are lying, and 2) townies don't know who all is town so they're gonna push town a lot, analyzing the reasoning for the push is needed.

This is a funny way of agreeing with my own logic as the 'lot of words' explained why I felt the push was suspicious by analyzing the reasoning for the push and concluding Kyoko Kirigiri's push was +scum.

[Ranger]

one is dismissive and the other is to keep it as mystery. They are classified as very different approaches in my head, which was one of the stuff that bugged me almost immediately about your responses - leading me to vote you saying I'm not satisfied and I need more form you.

But when you wrote this I kinda see it from another angle now and getting a new perspective on this

I'm interested in what this alleged new perspective is from the alt angle.

[Ranger]

{usesPython}
{Radical Rat, Abnegation, Rautherdir, Doctor Drew}
{KatyKimFanclub}
{Morning Tweet, camelCasedSnivy, sheepsaysmeep, Titus, Save The Dragons}
{DragonEater70, Flea The Magician}
{Random Nurse}
{WhemeStar, Aureal, Kyoko Kirigiri}
{Merlyn}

This is about where I'm at reads-wise rn.

[Ranger]

Changed my mind.

{usesPython}
{Radical Rat, Abnegation, Rautherdir, Doctor Drew}
{Titus, KatyKimFanclub}
{Morning Tweet, camelCasedSnivy, sheepsaysmeep, Save The Dragons}
{DragonEater70, Flea The Magician}
{Random Nurse}
{WhemeStar, Aureal, Kyoko Kirigiri}
{Merlyn}

[Ranger]

Refusing. This is a roadmap for scum kills.

As a general note; I'm of a generation which saw town players argue this as a reason against providing readslists.

This was silly, imo, because scum reading the game and paying attention to who's saying what about which players already have a roadmap regardless of stated reads. Any scum player not reading the game/paying attention isn't going to use the lists; any scum player who is, doesn't need them. Part of scum's job is to pay attention for who're the most townread players; they usually do so no matter the presence/absence of lists.

[Ranger]

Meanwhile Im sat here with extremely vague sus on ranger.

Having reread this, I actually really like Flea for town.

{usesPython}
{Radical Rat, Abnegation, Rautherdir, Doctor Drew}
{Titus, Flea The Magician}
{KatyKimFanclub}
{Morning Tweet, camelCasedSnivy, sheepsaysmeep, Save The Dragons}
{DragonEater70}
{Random Nurse}
{WhemeStar, Aureal, Kyoko Kirigiri, Merlyn}

Equal parts shift of Merlyn

slightly

up, and Wheme/Aureal/Kyoko all down.

[Ranger]

Thought about it some more.

{usesPython, Radical Rat, Rautherdir, Doctor Drew}
{Titus, Abnegation, Flea The Magician}
{KatyKimFanclub}
{Morning Tweet, camelCasedSnivy, sheepsaysmeep, Save The Dragons}
{DragonEater70}
{Random Nurse}
{WhemeStar, Aureal, Kyoko Kirigiri, Merlyn}

Abnegation's still a strong townread, yet when I think of {Radical Rat, Rautherdir, Doctor Drew} all three in my opinion have

very

strong reasons to be town, stronger than anyone else.

usesPython actually has far less reason to be town; they're up there because they're the consistently towniest player in the game by far, regardless of alignment. If the scum for whatever reason don't kill usesPython, I'll likely be long-dead well before there's any need to consider the validity of paranoia they might be deepscum.

[Ranger]

1545 feels nuanced in a way which would impress me if from scum, especially paired with the followthrough. I don't think it changes KatyKimFanClub's tier though.

[Ranger]

This post is filled with nothing but "yeah it can be tvt" but "she can fake it", so "I think she is scum" that's not logical mindset solving me.

Apparently, the concept I explain nuances behind complicated reads is foreign to you. I was rather unambiguous; I recognize how you could be town, and will always need to consider you being town, yet I've good reason to suspect you're scum and this is currently stronger than my doubts. There is evidence both ways; imo, the evidence you're scum's stronger.

[Ranger]

I think my main issue is with you demanding credit in first place. are you here to solve or look good?

As previously stated, credit's not exclusively for good things. I deserve credit for mistakes, too. My first priority will always be solving the game. If I see an injustice though, I'm not going to let it stand uncontested.

All things should be taken as they are, not as we wish they were. I'll provide feedback to anyone straying into the latter. In this case, knowing what I'm responsible for is important for discussions, particularly those surrounding me. If people are working off an incorrect base, then the discussion isn't as productive. So long as correcting false bases doesn't interfere with solving efforts, it's an obligation to provide the service.

and people sheeping your reads when they are so baseless and without substance is one of the reasons that make me even more alarmed regarding your slot.

As a general rule, usually scum don't sheep scum. So if it's alarming I'm being followed, either my followers are town and I've somehow managed control over them, or my followers contain scum sheeping town.

I'm not sure if there's grounds for alarm yet personally. I'm really liking my reads overall. We'll see how things develop.

Thats not how I remember the game at all or is it my skimming fault?

Well your apparent inability to investigate and confirm my claims certainly isn't

my

problem.

I was thinking town ranger would suspect her more?

Strange, I thought you had read my posts. A developing Titus read has been part of them. Her recent content displays signs I don't think she fakes as scum. These are weak enough I'd rather not point them out and hand her a guide on faking them. She wasn't out of her scum meta yet and I didn't like her contributions. Her contributions are still not great, yet I think they tick the Titus-town boxes.

[Ranger]

i don't think that only posting puns = town. i was townreading ranger individually already, but i forget why.

There's a real easy solution to this if you can spare the time.

[Ranger]

I actually don't get why Titus is this widely TR'd

Titus has displayed certain thoughts I feel indicate she's town solving, in ways I don't believe she would think to fake if scum. I also struggle to see her having a scum agenda. There's

possible

signs, yet so faint and situational I don't believe them. Still, this isn't definitive. She's town enough for rn imo.

[Ranger]

Hey ranger why do you think tbis is my scum game

Because I've seen your scumplay previously and townplay recently. I've a need to confirm, yet to my memory, your contributions fit the scum mold better.


Plus, you've made a few posts I'd scumread regardless of who made them, as the type disproportionately likely to come from scum. 1535 for instance.

[Ranger]

if she's scum, she's one of the ones I think could successfully leverage a nightmare presence to her advantage.

I'm honored by the respect shown to my scumgame. Given my recent scum neighborhood performance, it's likely warranted. Still, this respect shouldn't deny optimal play. If you think there's a reasonable chance I'm town, then paranoia's no reason to keep me out.

[Ranger]

{usesPython, Radical Rat, Rautherdir, Doctor Drew}
{Titus, Flea The Magician}
{KatyKimFanclub, sheepsaysmeep}
{Morning Tweet, camelCasedSnivy, Save The Dragons}
{DragonEater70, Abnegation}
{Random Nurse}
{WhemeStar, Aureal, Kyoko Kirigiri, Merlyn}

Losing faith in my Abnegation townread. Her content's overwhelmingly +town, yet I'm second-guessing her being town. Still, the DragonEater tier's north of null, so she's far from suddenly a scumread.

More comfortable with sheep town now.

[Ranger]

The problem is I Also think there's a decent chance you're scum. And you attempting to strongarm your way in hasn't really helped that.

The reason I've wanted in is specifically because I know my claim would help people, yet I've no desire to give it openly to all. As I said, I was always intending to claim if I trusted the members within. I simply wasn't planning to announce it prior to N1.

[Ranger]

I was just saying I saw them two completely different and separate approaches and not at all similar in my head initially but you saying they are similar makes me see them differently and more similar as a possibility. Like not saying something is different to me than saying they are jokes, but putting myself in your shoes, it made sense for you to say both and mean same thing.

So what does that

mean

, then?

[Ranger]

you drop a scum read on merlyn and instead of casing her/pushing her you ask for credits for scum reading her

1393.

Why are you even searching for credits instead of actually solving? Like who was even questioning you not doing anything that prompted that post of yours?

My first priority will always be solving the game. If I see an injustice though, I'm not going to let it stand uncontested.

The prompt was, among other things, Merlyn claiming I never cased her, the same way you're erroneously doing now.

what is the point of asking credit for them?

1405, 1429. I'm using the term credit for both good/bad. It's more convenient to use one word than two; if it bothers you I use it for negative things, then simply substitute in 'accountability'. I deserve accountability for any wrongdoing in every game.

you say you have no doubt this is scum me.

I'm fairly certain I never said this. I certainly said I believe your play is more likely scum. I'm rather sure I said the opposite; I think you're scum despite the doubts, not because there are none.

regarding your titus read, I did. I saw your suspicious of titus. I just feel its too easy of tr you gave them there. I feel like town!ranger would wanna pursue her more for a read - is just my feeling regarding that read

A town-ranger did pursue the read. That's why she went from suspicious to town. If you mean not pursuing the scumread, then the relevant factors: she was a weak scumread, far from my strongest, and the reasons could largely be due to her irl business; given the irl circumstances potentially explained her scumminess, there was nothing to pursue until she posted more. Sure enough, when she did, I saw signs of town-Titus absent previously.



You'll note I'm not answering your "why aren't you solving/sorting" accusation. The reason; there's no answer to give for a subjective statement. You've stated you don't think I have. I know I've been sorting with nearly every post I make. You say I'm assigning reads, yet when I've been asked to explain them, I've given my reasons. When presented with evidence I've sorted, you call the sorting fake or unnatural.

[Ranger]

Go back to being scummy please Ranger.

Easy; flip a town player I advocated for the elimination of. Instant way to make me scummy. :P

[Ranger]

Having done an iso of Merlyn here versus a scumgame, I've suddenly doubts she's scum here. I thought initially there was a great level of similarity, yet when I actually checked, the two are less similar than I thought. I'm not suddenly

convinced

she's town, yet I'm definitely getting cold feet on wagoning the slot.

VOTE: WhemeStar

[Ranger]

VOTE: WhemeStar

I went back and checked WhemeStar's iso in a scumgame and a towngame compared to here to confirm; this WhemeStar is

much

closer to the scum game.

[Ranger]

I've also reaffirmed a Titus townread.

[Ranger]

{usesPython, Radical Rat, Rautherdir, Doctor Drew}
{Titus, Flea The Magician}
{KatyKimFanclub, sheepsaysmeep}
{Save The Dragons}
{DragonEater70}
{Morning Tweet, camelCasedSnivy}
{Merlyn}
{Abnegation}
{Random Nurse}
{Aureal, Kyoko Kirigiri}
{WhemeStar}

Not quite sure on DragonEater - Abnegation tiers.

[Ranger]

Forgot to bump Titus up.

{usesPython, Radical Rat, Rautherdir, Doctor Drew}
{Titus}
{Flea The Magician}
{KatyKimFanclub, sheepsaysmeep}
{Save The Dragons}
{DragonEater70}
{Morning Tweet, camelCasedSnivy}
{Merlyn}
{Abnegation}
{Random Nurse}
{Aureal, Kyoko Kirigiri}
{WhemeStar}

She's not quite usesPython level town and doesn't have the same reasons to be town as RR/Rauth/Drew, yet is my strongest townread otherwise.

[Ranger]

{usesPython, Radical Rat, Rautherdir, Doctor Drew}
{Titus}
{Flea The Magician}
{KatyKimFanclub, sheepsaysmeep, Save The Dragons}
{DragonEater70, Merlyn}
{Morning Tweet, camelCasedSnivy}
{Abnegation}
{Random Nurse}
{Aureal, Kyoko Kirigiri}
{WhemeStar}

Following my instincts here.

[Ranger]

Is there a reason Abnegation is suddenly dropping so much?

Losing faith in my Abnegation townread. Her content's overwhelmingly +town, yet I'm second-guessing her being town.

My current instinct actually

is

Abnegation = deepwolf, despite how overwhelmingly town her content is.

Since this is just my instinct and she's incredibly town otherwise, I'd prefer to not focus there D1.

[Ranger]

VC 1.24

Merlyn (7, E-3!):

Abnegation, Radical Rat, Ranger, Save The Dragons, usesPython, sheepsaysmeep, Morning Tweet

WhemeStar (3):

Aureal, KatyKimFanClub, camelCasedSnivy

I want it clear on the record; I actually

really

like the names on the Merlyn wagon. I think the wagon's partially or entirely pure.

I've less good vibes about the names on the WhemeStar wagon.

Despite these, my instincts say Merlyn's town and my evidence says WhemeStar's scum.

[Ranger]

I’ll see what I can do to address the more recent content about 12 hours from now.

A quick skim has my reads unaffected, although I’ll need the full read to confirm.

I maintain WhemeStar is very visibly and obviously in his scum meta, and can provide a better explanation for why when I engage.

Meanwhile, please trust me. Don’t abandon the WhemeStar wagon on a frivolous pursuit for a better D1 elimination. WhemeStar is still a

good

elimination.

[Ranger]

Apologies, my catchup along with details of the WhemeStar meta will be 24 hours late (so, about 12 hours from now).

Meanwhile, this is the town-Wheme game I used.

My case isn’t actually activity-related. It’s content-related. Check out the link to see how different WhemeStar is this game compared to the town game.

I realize that’s only half the equation. I also need to demonstrate beyond him being out of the town meta, how he's specifically in his scum meta.

Ideally with multiple games, although I admit when I checked I only used one from each alignment. Ideally also breaking down the difference for those who can’t see it on their own.

Consider this an appetizer to appease you until I can provide the full thing. Peruse the iso I provided and you'll have a fair idea why this isn’t a town WhemeStar.

[Ranger]

if you compare the quality of posts between my scum game and my town game I put a lot more work into scum posts usually because I care a lot more on how people perceive me.

Guess what your posts this game look like to me.

[Ranger]

if you compare the quality of posts between my scum game and my town game I put a lot more work into scum posts usually because I care a lot more on how people perceive me.

Guess what your posts this game look like to me.

WhemeStar ironically wrote part of my case for me.

He's right. He

does

put more work into scum posts and cares more how people perceive him.

A large part of my scumread came from noticing he was doing precisely that this game.

[Ranger]

You thought WhemeStars 10 one-liner posts was him putting in effort?

No. I said what I meant:
WhemeStar puts more work into each post he makes when scum.

That shouldn't be confused with effort.

More work into each post means each post is carefully crafted. Which is what he's done.

The amount of effort is similar; the amount of care put in differs, and the level of care behind each WhemeStar post is his scum meta.

[Ranger]

I’m Eric I analyze traffic I can target a player and learn if they can communicate with someone outside of game

So I’m pretty sure I’m a cop

I don't believe this is a town roleclaim. I've seen the clarification involved. That's part of why I believe WhemeStar's claim is bogus.

[Ranger]

if Ranger wants to explain theirs on me I’m more than happy to debunk it

I provided the towngame I used earlier.

Let me provide a WhemeStar scumgame.

Check the similarity from this game to the scumgame, contrasted to the towngame.

WhemeStar's posts this game are nearly identical to the scumgame. In the scumgame, he demonstrated an intense level of focus, which in his own words, is because he puts more work into every scum post he makes. There's a total tonality difference. A Town-WhemeStar is lighthearted, casual, and not serious. A scum-WhemeStar is basically all business. A town-WhemeStar doesn't hyperfocus on specific players, whereas a scum-WhemeStar does. In this game, he seems oddly focused on me in a nearly identical way to his odd focus on mastina in the linked scumgame. WhemeStar as town doesn't display confusion about mechanics, yet as scum WhemeStar consistently does. His very method of providing reads is different. As town he basically just speaks his mind, yet as scum he makes deliberate hard statements and provides more grounded reads.

The level of effort is consistent. The amount of thought put into each post is much higher as scum, resulting in more surgical posts.

It doesn't matter if you think the claimed role is town. It's not. It doesn't matter if you think WhemeStar would have scumbuddies help him with his claim if he were scum and believe he didn't get the help. He's scum because he has a strong difference between his towngame and scumgame and is thoroughly in the scum meta this game.

[Ranger]

i don't think that only posting puns = town. i was townreading ranger individually already, but i forget why.

There's a real easy solution to this if you can spare the time.

A real easy solution to remembering why she townread you? You're not peddling some quack substance to enhance memories, are you? :?

Depends, does 'rereading the game' count as a substance?

[Ranger]

I don’t think Ranger is a lazy player

Point of clarity; I

am

a lazy player. I'm a casual tryhard, not a sweaty tryhard. I put in as little work as needed. For you, I used one scumgame and one recent towngame. Both, games I'm familiar with. I did enough work to verify this

is

your scum meta, and no more.

[Ranger]

so Its actually really interesting for me how others are getting confident reads on her. Like ranger's titus is town, or people putting titus is nightmare is something I legit cant get and it feels somewhat forced by some to a degree.

I've a similar yet opposite read on Titus I do to Wheme. Just as WhemeStar isn't in his town meta and is in his scum meta, Titus isn't in her scum meta and

is

in her town meta. I admit to laziness involved; I only read one game I'd prior familiarity with for both. Still, the contrast was rather drastic for Titus.

[Ranger]

What do you think our scumcase on Wheme is? As a hint: You and DragonEater should have the easiest time figuring this case out

I'm intrigued.

It's lurking, right?

Lurking with cross-site activity (You were playing codenames)

I'd also like to remind usesPython about their valid reason to scumread WhemeStar.

This trait isn't one easy to verify looking at past games. Anecdotally though, I'm

fairly

certain WhemeStar hasn't done cross-site activity with lurking in a towngame. I'm quite positive Wheme has done cross-site activity with lurking a scumgame.

While it's not something I consider a true smoking gun, it's a contributing factor. Because WhemeStar needs to put more time into his scum posts, he's more likely to neglect a game thread while active elsewhere if he can't figure out what to say, contrasting his town self not caring.

[Ranger]

"Ranger voting here is one of my biggest

concerns

about this wagon"? Or at least it might be if I had really even registered that she was on it.

A reminder to give credit where it's due. I formed the Merlyn wagon. When I gained doubts, the wagon essentially fell apart. I formed the WhemeStar wagon.

People

are

following me, for better or worse.

They aren't

always

, yet factually they have.

I doubt I've remotely close to perfect reads, yet at least on my WhemeStar scumread, it's a good read. The fact people formed the first wagon since Rautherdir without my involvement is imo, fairly suspect. The general direction of the game, regardless of whether people are willing to admit it, is following in my footsteps. The collapse of the WhemeStar wagon into a camelCasedSnivy wagon is a suspicious diversion from the previous trend.

[Ranger]

I'm sorry, the Rautherdir/Snivy wagons are sus because you weren't on them?

No.

It's factual I've been ahead of the curb and largely followed. The Rautherdir wagon formed on its own prior to my contributing; once I had, it fell apart. It's not suspect.

The camelCasedSnivy wagon is sus, because it formed on its own when I was contributing, based on prior trends. The WhemeStar wagon vanished without my involvement, the camelCasedSnivy wagon formed without my involvement, and given I've been largely followed throughout the game, I find that particularly sus.

It's certainly no crime to disagree with me. It's alarming to abandon prior stances to flashwagon a player who was previously under zero pressure, in response to a player who's near-certain scum claiming a role.

[Ranger]

I feel like you've been doing way to much pre-flip, just shoot the scummiest person d1

I agree with the sentiment.

That player's WhemeStar. He's claimed, sure. He's still the scummiest person D1.

[Ranger]

The fact people formed the first wagon since Rautherdir without my involvement is imo, fairly suspect.

The Rautherdir wagon formed on its own prior to my contributing; once I had, it fell apart. It's not suspect.

So is it suspect or not?

Try reading that again. The Rautherdir wagon isn't suspect. The camelCasedSnivy wagon is.

[Ranger]

I also feel like their playstyle is different from their most recent completed scum game I could find.

I disagree. This is the same scum WhemeStar I've seen elsewhere.

[Ranger]

So is your position that Wheme intentionally faked misunderstanding what a traffic analyst does?

Maybe. My position is WhemeStar is scum, and the way he went about his claim was +scum. Botched fakeclaim, faked botch of safeclaim, botched realclaim, doesn't matter. He's not town for it though and clearing him from something he's faked countless times before as scum is a mistake. Whatever it was, it wasn't town botching a realclaim.

[Ranger]

given deadline unpaused, I'd compromise vote for Wheme but I'd like someone - preferably someone I'm not already townreading - to elaborate on why Wheme is scum over disengaged town

WhemeStar's disengaged town produces virtually zero content and when it is given, it's still genuine. Here's an example of lazy-Wheme-town. Here's another example of fairly lazy Wheme-town.

Does WhemeStar this game look like any of those?

Not to me.

This WhemeStar looks more like his scumgame.

[Ranger]

Is that hammer oh my god

Not even remotely close and you know it.

[Ranger]

you're actually at 3 votes right now, that's an impressively bad miscount

You call impressively bad miscount.

I call calculated attempt to look town without being town.

[Ranger]

I dunno I think wheme is scummy because he feels like he's struggling to produce good content. like it's not just

lurking

it's that when he's actually here, which is an ok amount of time, I dont really buy the reads-related stuff he gets out into the thread it feels relatively more shallow and flaily

and I vaguely believe that that's scummy for him metawise based on some games ive skimmed before but I wouldnt claim to know the meta well enough to push that

Having done my research (the total's up to the most recent 12 or so), I can back this up. When WhemeStar is town, he might not generate much content, but when he does, it's still reasonably nuanced. The thoughts may be

strange

, yet have depth.

As scum, his content is less genuine, with not nearly the same depth.

[Ranger]

A quick skim has my reads unaffected, although I’ll need the full read to confirm.

I believe I've changes thanks to my reading process in full, albeit mostly minor.

{usesPython, Radical Rat, Rautherdir, Doctor Drew}
{Titus}
{KatyKimFanclub, sheepsaysmeep}
{DragonEater70}
{Flea The Magician, Save The Dragons}
{CatScratchFever}
{camelCasedSnivy}
{Morning Tweet}
{Abnegation}
{Random Nurse, Aureal}
{Kyoko Kirigiri}
{WhemeStar}

Loosely through 78.

[Ranger]

Should be noted; KatyKimFanclub - Abnegation tiers aren't great, I'll likely adjust them more as I can think of how to make them better.

[Ranger]

I’d argue I try to explain my reads in my scum games way more and it’s way harder for me to be causal/appear natural

Yes that's also true.

It happens to apply this game.

[Ranger]

I mean sure but the way I lurk is completely different

This is true.

This is your scum way.

[Ranger]

But if you compare the quality of posts between my scum game and my town game

I put a lot more work into scum posts usually because I care a lot more on how people perceive me

. So while I lurk I put in more effort because as scum I see myself more as on a team and don’t want to let my team down.

I don’t know if people will actually look at my scum games but I hope people do because the difference in them is glaring.

Going back to this, I've provided numerous examples of past games.

Under the lens WhemeStar's statement is true, compare the past towngames to the past scumgames. You will note how he's right about more work in scum posts and a focus on how he's perceived. Yet if you look at his iso this game, he has this very same trait here.

Read 2031, 2051, 2237, 2239, 2243, 2270, 2271/2272, 2275, 2284, 2287.

[Ranger]

If you think my posts before I started defending myself came off as caring how I was perceived then I don’t know what to say

Those were what pinged me in the first place, yes.

[Ranger]

Ranger, why is abnegation still in your proposal?

Two reasons. The first, part of the proposal with the least-scumread slots overall, at last check. The second, I don't suspect Abnegation. Abnegation's low, and I've paranoia the slot's scum despite being massively +town in contributions, yet objectively Abnegation's still town in posting if nothing else. I'm willing to risk it.

[Ranger]

For the record, Doctor Drew

heavily

implied he bodyguarded usesPython last night.

Given he's near-certainly the source of the Titus death, I'm treating usesPython as conftown.

Otherwise, hard-reset of everything.

[Ranger]

{usesPython}
{Radical Rat}
{camelCasedSnivy}
{sheepsaysmeep}
{KatyKimFanClub}
{Save The Dragons}
{Aureal}
{Ircher}

Of those who've posted so far.

VOTE: Ircher

[Ranger]

With a certainty of a traitor present, it would be wise to search for signaling.

When I reread, I'll see if I spot anything.

[Ranger]

Brief skim of Titus's iso:

KatyKimFanClub +town (512, 513);
Aureal +scum;
Rautherdir +town;
Abnegation +scum.

Maybe one more +scum, yet rest largely inconclusive.