Manipulation, Bleed, Player-Characters, and the Purpose of Mafia

[biancospino]

regardless of anything else, this discussion is making it clear to me that I completely lack a working definition of gaslighting that aligns to any degree of faithfulness to what seems to be the consensus.

Can someone give me a definition? I'm honestly quite confused tbh. Because really to me just making someone doubt their reads or though process shouldn't be called gaslighting simply for the same reason that a spade shouldn't be called a sword

[DragonEater70]

regardless of anything else, this discussion is making it clear to me that I completely lack a working definition of gaslighting that aligns to any degree of faithfulness to what seems to be the consensus.

Can someone give me a definition? I'm honestly quite confused tbh. Because really to me just making someone doubt their reads or though process shouldn't be called gaslighting simply for the same reason that a spade shouldn't be called a sword

So here's the thing. Like many other English language words (and words in other languages, I'm sure), the word gaslighting has several definitions. Here are both definitions I found on Merriam-Webster:

1. psychological manipulation of a person usually over an extended period of time that causes the victim to question the validity of their own thoughts, perception of reality, or memories and typically leads to confusion, loss of confidence and self-esteem, uncertainty of one's emotional or mental stability, and a dependency on the perpetrator.

2. the act or practice of grossly misleading someone especially for one's own advantage.

Obviously, the first definition is a form of abuse that is obviously not acceptable and completely outside the scope of the game. The second really has nothing to do with abuse and is just about misleading. However I'm not sure if it gives an accurate representation of how it's used here. I think here it's used to mean "the action of stating untrue facts as true in an attempt to convince someone who

knows

they aren't true that they are true anyway". It's different from simply lying. Lying would be, for instance, claiming a cop guilty when you are not a cop. Gaslighting is used for instance to describe the following sequence: A mafioso softclaims a guilty, gets their target eliminated, and then insists that they weren't softing a guilty at all and were misrepresented and that they thought somebody else was actually softing a guilty, and then even though you KNOW they did soft a guilty, you let yourself be convinced and eliminate the other person instead. Or another example is if mech doesn't clear someone, but they insisit that it does clear them, and they continue arguing to the point where you're questioning yourself and decide that you know what, maybe the mech does clear them. Both of these would probably be referred to as gaslighting by players who use the term colloquially (IMO). If someone else sees it differently or has something to add, go ahead.

[JacksonVirgo]

Yeah if those are the examples that encompasses gaslighting here, banning it is… a decision

[DragonEater70]

Just to be clear, nobody is banning the actions described above, or even any action, per se. The mod team had set up a policy which discourages players from using the term to describe the actions of other players, on the grounds that said other players would not want to be accused of abuse (it is my personal opinion that the word gaslighting when used in the context of mafia doesn't refer to abuse, but the rationale behind the policy is that the primary definition of gaslighting does refer to actual abuse).

As further clarification, per my understanding this thread isn't even about this policy, but just includes a general discussion of the relationship between manipulation in a game and the emotional state of the players playing the game.

[JacksonVirgo]

I see, I don’t understand banning words that aren’t slurs or slur-adjacent. It’s a descriptive term for one particular manipulative behaviour. If I get called out for gaslighting somebody in the context of a game I should assume they believe I am gaslighting them or they’re trying to manipulate me or others about me. If anybody is saying it in a way that incites toxicity or referring in a way that insinuates the person is actually abusive that should be brought to the mods regardless and no word ban would stop somebody from doing that, just makes it harder for the good ppl to articulate themselves and makes a transition to the site harder from other communities (the L word I still am catching myself almost saying for instance)

[TemporalLich]

If "warping" doesn't catch on then the argument that "gaslighting" breaks the bubble (the main idea behind the moderation update related to the term "gaslighting") is weak to nonexistent considering there are arguments like this that use the term "gaslighting" casually:

Just to be clear, nobody is banning the actions described above, or even any action, per se. The mod team had set up a policy which discourages players from using the term to describe the actions of other players, on the grounds that said other players would not want to be accused of abuse (it is my personal opinion that the word gaslighting when used in the context of mafia doesn't refer to abuse, but the rationale behind the policy is that the primary definition of gaslighting does refer to actual abuse).

also I'm not much of a fan of the term "spreading mist" but that is merely because the ideas don't connect in my mind

[DragonEater70]

I see, I don’t understand banning words that aren’t slurs or slur-adjacent. It’s a descriptive term for one particular manipulative behaviour. If I get called out for gaslighting somebody in the context of a game I should assume they believe I am gaslighting them or they’re trying to manipulate me or others about me. If anybody is saying it in a way that incites toxicity or referring in a way that insinuates the person is actually abusive that should be brought to the mods regardless and no word ban would stop somebody from doing that, just makes it harder for the good ppl to articulate themselves and makes a transition to the site harder from other communities (the L word I still am catching myself almost saying for instance)

I totally agree with you.

[JacksonVirgo]

I feel it’s incredibly awkward to want a word substitute for it meaning essentially, if not exactly, the same thing. Forcing language is not really something I’m all that okay with

[TemporalLich]

I see, I don’t understand banning words that aren’t slurs or slur-adjacent. It’s a descriptive term for one particular manipulative behaviour. If I get called out for gaslighting somebody in the context of a game I should assume they believe I am gaslighting them or they’re trying to manipulate me or others about me. If anybody is saying it in a way that incites toxicity or referring in a way that insinuates the person is actually abusive that should be brought to the mods regardless and no word ban would stop somebody from doing that, just makes it harder for the good ppl to articulate themselves and makes a transition to the site harder from other communities (the L word I still am catching myself almost saying for instance)

yeah I agree as well

I think it's better to have a sort of drop in replacement for the word "gaslighting" for the acceptable Mafia strategy of manipulating someone to doubt their thought process, and "warping" or "mind warping" would be a good term, though this is to minimize the risk of misunderstandings and improve game health.

pedit: the reasoning behind even proposing an alternate term is to avoid blurring the lines between in game and out of game content

"warping" might fail and if so, I don't have any real support for discouraging the use of the term "gaslighting" as there is no real alternative asides from describing the play verbosely

[usesPython]

1. psychological manipulation of a person usually over an extended period of time that causes the victim to question the validity of their own thoughts, perception of reality, or memories and typically leads to confusion, loss of confidence and self-esteem, uncertainty of one's emotional or mental stability, and a dependency on the perpetrator.

Obviously, the first definition is a form of abuse that is obviously not acceptable and completely outside the scope of the game.

Hot take: That's a legitimate strategy that should be allowed as long as everyone playing agrees to it beforehand (i.e. it should be allowable on the ruleset level) since it introduces the additional skill ceiling of gaslighting, resisting gaslighting, and helping other townies resist gaslighting/helping your scumteam gaslight townies

[JacksonVirgo]

It should be allowed, period

If you are backed into a corner, and your only way out is the chance to make town distrust the current reality or lose. You’re asking them to openwolf/gamethrow/give up if they can’t then try their best to throw a wrench in what is considered true (caught in a fake claim etc).

It is incredibly unreasonable imo to ban or dissuade such plays

[JacksonVirgo]

And if it’s allowed, calling the behaviour as it is should also be allowed without requiring people use softer words for the same thing

[JacksonVirgo]

Calling people abusive through it is a different matter, this is a non-issue as I currently see it but open my eyes to my own ignorance if anybody thinks I am ignorant here

[Dannflor]

im so gonna regret egoing this

the problem is that the term gaslighting has inherently abusive connotations

like, the term's roots are in domestic violence

i don't think trying to fabricate your own reality as either alignment in a mafia game is gaslighting, nor does it need to be called that. it is a game, and a game about deception, playing to your win condition by making people doubt themselves is not abusive.

just say it's lying, or misrepping, or whatever people did before gaslighting was a term that got overused

[JacksonVirgo]

You have all the power to use the words you want to, I don’t recall ever using it myself but ruling it as an illegal word should never be the move

[Dannflor]

what i am saying is that to say someone is gaslighting is to say someone is being abusive given its connotations

and i don't think people should be able to call people abusive if the only thing that is happening is playing the game, that just breaks into the realm of out of game influence and is horrible for game integrity

obviously if there is actually abuse happening in a mafia game it's a different story but i think that's pretty rare and far between at least in current site culture

[KayJayQueue]

what i am saying is that to say someone is gaslighting is to say someone is being abusive given its connotations

I’m not sure if that’s a fully accurate statement. The meaning of the word seems much more subjective than your statement would imply.

[AniX]

Well, I think the term gaslighting is a loaded word that isn't simply a generic description for a pattern of behavior but also implicit that that behavior is done in the context of an abusive act. For example, I think most people would object to using "domestic violence" to refer to spouses having a boxing match with one another even though the individual parts (spouse physically hitting spouse) are present because there is something MORE to "domestic violence" than simply the description of the acts, just like there is something MORE to "gaslighting" than a simple description of the acts.

I think there is more room for interpretation because gaslighting is experiencing drift away from its abusive origins. But at the end of the day, if the source of a word is rooted in abuse and a significant portion of people associate it solely with engaging in abuse, we ought to air on the side of not having people accused of abusive manipulation for playing a game.

[Dannflor]

what i am saying is that to say someone is gaslighting is to say someone is being abusive given its connotations

I’m not sure if that’s a fully accurate statement. The meaning of the word seems much more subjective than your statement would imply.

I fundamentally disagree so I'll just leave it at that

[AniX]

If we are over-moderating here and the word has truly drifted so significantly it is a general use term, the worst result is users need to utilize a different word to describe mafia game manipulation and there are a few awkward phrasings until we settle on a word. If we were to under-moderate here and allow the term to apply to normal mafia play and the term remains significantly tied to abusive to enough people, the worst result is people are subject to accusations they are engaging in a manipulative and abusive act to which they have no retort or counter until, at best, after the game and even then to only have an academic discussion of whether gaslighting appropriately describes mafia play.

[Cook]

crossposting this from the other thread:

At risk of sounding pretentious (like every time i post ever), I love how many ideas and how much nuance there is in this conversation about the wording replacement. I actually think referring to a lot of misrepresentation in a mafia game as 'gaslighting' is pretty reductive. It can be anything from spinning a narrative, to spreading mist, to capping, to just good ol' failing to see someone else's perspective.

Perhaps the term replacement is such a complicated discussion because there isn't a linear replacement. Perhaps there's not a linear replacement because sometimes, a wide spectrum of game decisions are attributed to gaslighting, whether falsely or not.

I'm generally someone who's fairly anti label because I feel like so many descriptors can end up ironically becoming prescriptive. It could be really healthy that we're having an explosion of ideas once
as we peel back the incorrect categorisation.

This isn't meant to shoot down the convo either btw, just, like, enjoying the brainvibes

and reminding everyone that this isn't the feedback thread, there are other topics of conversation that i wanted to cover within this MD thread that would have been ignored if further mod action happened that required feedback in the feedback thread.

[Cook]

i.e. read the OPs -- you are also welcome to keep talking about this. i don't know. this is an MD thread. this is about mafia.

[KayJayQueue]

I think I’ve mostly used the word “manipulating” or variations thereof when describing what happens in mafia games. I feel like it’s a blanket term, sure, but also not inaccurate. If we are moving away from the word gaslighting, I don’t see a need to get fancy with new terms. This should also take it away from any connections to abuse.

But as I said in the other thread, it should be explained in the rules that the word is a problem or it will feel harsh when someone gets warned against using a word they didn’t realize was off-limits.

[JacksonVirgo]

what i am saying is that to say someone is gaslighting is to say someone is being abusive given its connotations

and i don't think people should be able to call people abusive if the only thing that is happening is playing the game, that just breaks into the realm of out of game influence and is horrible for game integrity

obviously if there is actually abuse happening in a mafia game it's a different story but i think that's pretty rare and far between at least in current site culture

It should be obvious that it shouldn’t be construed as abusive when it’s in the context of mafia, I fail to see why players have to be restricted in the words they can use because people are unable to realise the word has its seperate meaning in the context of the game.

By all means make and use a softer term for it, but it shouldn’t be warned against, let alone enforced.

[JacksonVirgo]

This is me being lenient about it having connotations with being abusive, which I feel is unfair to consider it directly linked to it