What games/setups are good for new players?

[Ydrasse]

hello! as part of the mod team’s efforts to make a better new player experience i would like to reach out to ask our playerbase what they think makes a good newbie game.

this can be any suggestion - link to a setup, general ideas, playstyles, mentor programs. anything is on the table!

and thank you in advance for anything posted!!

[Radical Rat]

NewD3 did its job very well from my memory. The setup matrix establishes what kind of roles balance well together, and is a good springboard for moving onto the more common closed setup games.

[Black]

Yes I had a lot of fun with NewD3 when I first joined

[Grovyle in a Fedora]

i think newd3 is a good setup in a vacuum but a poor representation of the overall games played on site.

i think that 9:12 may be a better one that creates more possible setups that emulates the closed vibe more and also is closer in line to setups generally run on this site


a good newbie setup should introduce a player to the site's meta as well as being simple enough (and an open one is fairly required for this) to accommodate those that are completely new to mafia, as those coming with experience will generally be able to just go into the newbie queue.


with regards to mentorship, it would be nice to see new players in the normal queue allowed to have someone they can consult for general mafia advice(no specific reads, etc.) where they have access to an experienced player in a PT with the game mode(to ensure no game related reads are being conveyed) to push them into play that helps them succeed more.

[usesPython]

Setup-wise semi-opens are great for this because it lets new players get the feel for the not knowing the setup that comes with Normals while still having tools to navigate through mech. That being said there's a caveat to this in that the setup generation should be as simple as possible; something like NewD3 or 09:12 are a lot easier to understand compared to something like C9++

Playerlist should also be kept on the smaller side, a Large probably isn't appropriate for newer players

Ideally avoid setups that would need you to pull out the NAR resolution list (e.g. Mafia Roleblocker and Town Jailkeeper targeting each other)

There's an argument of if investigative PRs should be in those types of games: on one hand if there are no investigatives then it forces new townies to have to learn to read people (which is good since it gets them the skills to actually enjoy playing), on the other hand if there are no investigatives then new townies can only interact through reads which in our opinion can cause a lot of frustration since there's an unfortunate tendency on this site to ignore reads from newer players outside of how it helps you read the newbie in question

I think the biggest factor to if a newbie game is actually enjoyable is the level of meta people bring into it and we'd unironically support secret alt newbie games with the understanding that experienced players shouldn't be trying to meta each other and should just be playing the game normally

[DragonEater70]

I think the biggest factor to if a newbie game is actually enjoyable is the level of meta people bring into it and we'd unironically support secret alt newbie games with the understanding that experienced players shouldn't be trying to meta each other and should just be playing the game normally

How about newbie games where experienced players are on secret alts and newbies aren't? This way newbies can still form bonds with each other and also earn a reputation without vets stealing the show.

[Cabd]

Make three accounts, named IC, SE_1, SE_2 and rotate them as alts, you mean?

[usesPython]

I think the biggest factor to if a newbie game is actually enjoyable is the level of meta people bring into it and we'd unironically support secret alt newbie games with the understanding that experienced players shouldn't be trying to meta each other and should just be playing the game normally

How about newbie games where experienced players are on secret alts and newbies aren't? This way newbies can still form bonds with each other and also earn a reputation without vets stealing the show.

Secret alts for everyone also pulls double duty in preventing experienced players being able to go "Newbie spotted, opinion ignored". We don't really have any better ideas for how to let newbies form bonds with each other while preventing this kind of thing though so that's probably one of the better compromises

[DragonEater70]

Make three accounts, named IC, SE_1, SE_2 and rotate them as alts, you mean?

That could work! (but wasn't what I'd meant)

[Black]

If the goal is to retain new players then I don't think we need to try to brighten the experience for them. It should be ok to give them a taste of how other games are played on the site in regards to things like meta reads and emotional arguments. If they don't like those things then they probably won't stick around long anyway

I want to bring back the Newbie Queue. There was something about the Newbie Queue that just naturally made people a bit more friendly/approachable. Not always obviously, but for the most part it was a pleasant experience for me. It was my own little place I could go to and sign up for games that were made for me and it made me feel like I had a home here. It felt like a community and I was able to bond with a lot of people because of that. I think having the Newbie Queue open as kind of like a safe haven for newer players that are intimidated by the rules/frequent players of other queues is an excellent idea

[Ydrasse]

this is a bit of my Personal Takes on newbie queue and newbie reform and how i am approaching it atm

i think the newbie queue shouldn't come back in its original form. i valued and really enjoyed the games that were played there, i had a lot of fun, but i think that we can offer a better and more expansive newbie experience for players than this setup. while it's good for people who are completely new to the game, i think that it creates a disparity between what new players play and what an average site game is like - if they go to the normal queue and are confronted by multiple unknown night roles and interactions, and lack an understanding of how to approach them, it can be disheartening.

while i would like this to benefit mainly newer players of mafia as a whole i also want this new take on the queue, whatever form it takes, to be a nice introduction to people new to MS and the types of games we play here as well in general. newd3 doesn't... really cut it for that.

i have a few ideas for how to implement this (and this is me myself and i alone in these opinions) but what i was thinking was to have, at the very least, monthly games launching. it can include newd3, i think it should include stuff like an easier pyp or c9++, i think it should have some of our open games that have interesting mechanics rather than roles. there should be some simpler normals! there should be a variety of what we offer to new players over a period of time - and returning ones, too - that let them try out various things to see how it works for them in an environment that is supportive to learning moreso than being the Most Competitive Games ever. i also think that for super new players if there is something a bit more 'complex' in queue, like say pyp, and they want the newd3 experience we could easily just accommodate this by running it.

the idea of a mentor program intrigues me too. having a space where you can connect with at least one person who you know is on your side in a game is really nice, and would help players adjust to the new space. the vague idea here is that: there is a thread where people can choose if they want to be a mentor, post a little profile for themselves. if someone wants a mentor, they can reach out to someone specific or ask for a random one. i don't think that they should be added into any other queue nor should they be allowed to join midway through a game - this should be a normalized process that's the same each game.

i think i'm also against secret alts being used in these games. i think if we want people to build connections with our community i personally would it rather be with the person. also i think having the anonymity introduces a weird pseudo-game potentially where experienced players try to figure out who's who when instead we can just emphasize that, if possible, not as much meta-based play should be indulged. it's impossible to get rid of it entirely but we can request that it be spoken about less or something. mitigating it entirely seems unlikely.

[Ydrasse]

(also i don't wanna get into this but it maybe helps to give more of an idea of the scope of it all, this all would happen in step with, hopefully, a better newbie guide and arrangement of resources)

[Black]

I really like the idea of rotating newbie setups within some revamped Newbie Queue. Maybe even an Intermediate game in there every now and then like you mentioned

[fferyllt]

I like the idea of closed newbie setups, with a smallish list of normal roles and modifiers and a hard limit on the number of modifiers an ability can have. (1, maybe 2 max but not 2 modifiers for each non-vanilla ability).

Sort of like the simpler normal setups, but even more constrained.

To me, the skills acquired by playing open or semi-open setups a la NewD3 and older newbie setups don't easily translate to playing closed setups. But, the skills that closed setups build come very much into play in open setups.

I had hoped that when the Newbie queue was clearly dying on the vine, something like what I'm proposing could have been tried to see if the replace-out and retention rates improved.

[Cook]

pertaining to my other thread on the subject of dealing with toxic player behaviors, i'd like to see a guide on not just how to

play

mafia, but how to

play mafia on MS

and

deal with playing mafia

onsite -- teaching newbies how to be healthy players in a game and how to cope with the game. i'd rather have a newbie that knows what their limits are and doesn't play a whole lot than one who plays a lot and gets burnt out because of problems they have with other people.

[usesPython]

If the goal is to retain new players then I don't think we need to try to brighten the experience for them. It should be ok to give them a taste of how other games are played on the site in regards to things like meta reads and emotional arguments. If they don't like those things then they probably won't stick around long anyway

Meta reads we think there's a argument of threshold to be made, and it's something we've noticed in our games as well. If the game is meta heavy and everyone but you knows each other then it's basically impossible to play the game, like knowing even just a few people would let you play the game by evaluating how people are metaing the people you can meta. The problem with newbie games in particular is that by definition they're not gonna know anyone, which creates a very particular negative vibe in that the game feels cliquish as hell; in contrast the regular growing pains of not knowing how to read people/deceive people/convince people/etc. fall under the skill issue umbrella where you can get support and feel like you can improve and all that good stuff.

[DragonEater70]

If the goal is to retain new players then I don't think we need to try to brighten the experience for them.

There was something about the Newbie Queue that just naturally made people a bit more friendly/approachable. Not always obviously, but for the most part it was a pleasant experience for me. It was my own little place I could go to and sign up for games that were made for me and it made me feel like I had a home here.

I think that in order to achieve the latter we do have to do the former (i.e. brighten the experience for newbies)

I also might be in the minority but I think the most important aspect of newbie games, moreso than the setups being reflective of how setups are being played on site (though I don't think that's completely unimportant), and definitely more important than making players "have a taste of how games are played" including meta reads and emotional arguments, is accustoming players to the basics of forum mafia and specifically to how it's played around here compared to other formats (RVS, pacing, amount of fluff, what are considered good tells and what is considered bad tells). After they've been accustomed to that and are properly

addicted to

settled into the site we can introduce other aspects like emotional manipulation as "higher level" play (which it really is). In fact probably one of the reasons people felt at home in the newbie queue is the lack of this higher level confusing play.

[Psyche]

Still think it's possible to have the best of both worlds by having a newbie queue that works (at least in part) as a funnel to games initiated in other queues.

IMO priority should certainly not be to make newbie games reflective of site meta.
I'm not even sure if it should even be a minor priority beyond making sure the games are actual forum-based.
I struggle to think of any scenario where that interest should get in the way of pursuing the most newbie-friendly experience possible.

More broadly think site meta should prefer to shift to suit prospective newbies over than the converse where we try to "prepare" newbies for site meta.
Feel like discourse emphasizing otherwise doesn't sufficiently appreciate the hole that the site is gradually digger deeper into at the moment.

[DragonEater70]

More broadly think site meta should prefer to shift to suit prospective newbies over than the converse where we try to "prepare" newbies for site meta.

Yeah that was kinda what I wanted to say

[Ydrasse]

i don't know if our population of players currently would be willing to do that - or if it can be more concretely identified, what needs to change. less toxicity? sure? less competitiveness? mmmmaybe? i, personally, think that it's fine if our games are competitive but we have to walk a fine line.

it's a lot harder to change the entirety of a website than it is to make our beginner experience contain a bit of preparation i think. also setting up certain games/themes/playstyles/etc, doesn't mean that that change will never happen. it's too broad-scope i think to plan for currently and i thiiink a different conversation than current reform but idk. maybe different thread conversation worthy but still interested in exploring. this isn't trying to be a downer reply either i'm just trying to be realistic about what can be done in the immediate future i guess.

[Psyche]

iirc my idea in the other thread was to

1) identify what we like about the original newbie experience
2) devise how to make these things portable such that they could be readily included in games already typically run on the site by adding these things
3) include newbie-friendliness as a setup review factor; people interested in making their games newbie friendly would have their setups and key moderator posts reviewed for this and guided to meet holistic or concrete criteria
4) enforce a certain ratio of games across the site to be newbie friendly
5) use a revived newbie queue as a funnel of new players and quasi-ICs into newbie-friendly games (and into games in general when fast sign-up is the player's priority)

i think we already do something similar with the simple/complex normal distinction, provision of pre-made setups to people who just want to fire games, etc

i don't think this idea calls for some sort of radical reorganization of the site or a new attitude about competition, and they also seem implementable incrementally/modularly. For example, review for "Newbie-Friendly" badges can happen without a newbie-queue or explicit policies about what newbie-friendliness consists of or an enforced ratio of newbie-friendly games fired. But I do think the process of making something like this work would gradually make games across the site more newbie-friendly overall even if all the kinks aren't worked out from the getgo.

Examples...
- Supposing newbie-friendly criteria aren't too stringent, moderators looking to get a game running quickly will be incentivized to make their setups newbie friendly even if running newbie-friendly games aren't their priority.
- The frequency of newbie-friendly setups outside a pre-defined silo will influence people's basic expectations about how to run and play games even outside these contexts. Even stuff like the practice of reusing other mods' rulesets will help enforce a culture shift.
- A feedback process as games are fired will help identify areas for improvement at all levels (policy-makers, administrators, moderators, players) that can be acted on with relative frequency and flexibility as a natural byproduct of firing and running and playing games.

[Ydrasse]

i think of those i'm not really interested in forcing x amount of games to be newbie-friendly; i'm actually unsure of the exact numbers right now (and bad at finding them so it might take me a while if i do it later lol) but i feel that's a bad choice to force it unilaterally across the site, like. in particular places sure - i'm not the normal queue runner but i'd be fine with a permanent 1 simple or something there, an open slot and of course this queue/project/etc would always have the place for newbie friendly things but when it comes to spaces like theme games, it feels like we might hamstring people by saying "ope we haven't ran a newbie-friendly theme game in a while sorry, can't do it boss" sort of thing. i wonder if i'm incorrect there.

that was kind of why i wanted to run games that weren't newd3 but were explicitly newbie friendly regardless - the opens, the closed, treat it not so much as a "this is how games work on mafiascum" sort of deal but rather "these games offer fundamental building of things and skills people value in games, whether or not you choose to after is fine but we want you to be able to experience them."

i am also really into the idea of a feedback/play review thread actually too. i think that would be a nice addition to all of this and would pair well with a mentor program or something of the sort.

(also i do think more of our games are 'newbie friendly' than we realize probably, at least in the setups being ran, we just don't qualify them like that atm.)

[Psyche]

The approach that seems to seek out a specific or small pool of newbie-friendly setups to have always firing IMO has the flaw that it narrows decision-making about the kinds of games to run to a single top-level policy commitment that down the line would require top-level decision-making to refine. There's one (or a few) official newbie-friendly setups and place to run them, and what everyone else is doing is secondary and might take more searching for a newbie to look for.

I'd rather "What games/setups are good for new players?" be a question that is continually posed as part of the setup review/firing process and involves anyone interested in running games rather than ahead of comparatively infrequent policy shifts involving only a smaller pool of highly-engaged stakeholders (site mods and -- more peripherally -- MD/site-ideas frequenters).

[Ydrasse]

also since this is sort of being the thread for newbie reform now in general:

i am also resistant to promising or committing to broader scale change at the moment because... i am one person, the mod team is a few people, and i worry that the level of support isn't there honestly. i appreciate very much the people who have given ideas to us, who are continuing to and are trying to make things newbie-friendly even without a queue or guides yet but there's always the chance that everyone pitches in the concepts but when it comes to run these things regularly, to dedicate time to helping players, they can't or don't want to. which is fine but i guess i am treating this whole shebang a bit more ""realistically"" or whatever in terms of implementation. framework first, meta/site change after if it's wanted.

[Ydrasse]

The approach that seems to seek out a specific or small pool of newbie-friendly setups to have always firing IMO has the flaw that it narrows decision-making about the kinds of games to run to a single top-level policy commitment that down the line would require top-level decision-making to refine. There's one (or a few) official newbie-friendly setups and place to run them, and what everyone else is doing is secondary and might take more searching for a newbie to look for.

I'd rather "What games/setups are good for new players?" be a question that is continually posed as part of the setup review/firing process and involves anyone interested in running games rather than ahead of comparatively infrequent policy shifts involving only a smaller pool of highly-engaged stakeholders (site mods and -- more peripherally -- MD/site-ideas frequenters).

i wonder if i made it not clear about at least, my personal philosophy on this but i am treating "newbie friendly" as a very open ended thing and i don't want like five setups only that rotate or us picking out of a hat things that are "simple" because i think there are an infinite amount of things that can be done in games that can be presented in a newbie friendly way or can be fun for players new to our site etc. it's a very broad spectrum and i tried to express that in the opening post!!