13p Normal [TM2015]

[Fenchurch]

Yayyyyyy!

reads:
SleepyKrew - prob town
Thor - maybe town
jason - maybe scum
Mala - maybe scum

not being read yet:
Micc
Egg
Dragons
Trojan Horse

not posted yet:
Pieguy
sthar
Delta
Boon

VOTE: jason

Save The Dragons, there's a reasonably established argument that dice-voting in RVS is anti-town.
Were you aware of this already?
What do you think of it?

[Fenchurch]

jason - when did you last play scum?

[Fenchurch]

what the heck? we're all just unvoting out of RVS already? And why is their a wagon on Micc?

I don't think there is a wagon on Micc. Micc has 1 vote, jason has 4.

[Fenchurch]

I do not know what the argument is so I have no opinion. I do not see much of a difference between me rolling a die and me saying "hey SK! What's up bud! Imma vote you now" or me saying "I hate people who's names start with the letter J, so it's time to vote Jason."

Here's a quote, with other similar explanations in the linked thread.

Because it might be that the player making it has more info available than he shows, and is avoiding to vote his mafia buddy, or is trying to get the VI lynched, or whatever. 'Random' votes should definately NOT be random, and the Random Voting Stage is the worst name for the beginning of the game we could possibly have.

The problem with a vote made with the use of dice is that it is provable random. The player making the vote can not possibly have had ulterior motives for who he voted. Because of this, the vote can't be used to start discussion, and is therefore completely useless. And making completely useless posts at a point in time when pro-town players should do everything in their power to get discussion started is definately anti-town.

Joke votes aren't much better, but at least you make the decision on who to joke vote, and so will be open to [subconscious] influence if you have any extra information about the game (e.g. if you are scum).

[Fenchurch]

SleepyKrew - prob town

Why?

I think your opening post of just 'Greetings', and your stubbornness in subsequent posts implies a position of confidence and ease, and I associate these things with town.

It's also possible that you are especially confident and at ease with being scum, and/or that you know these things will cause some players to town-read you, but it's more than nothing.

[Fenchurch]

Fenchurch, a message from my team: Tammy wants you to clarify your scum read on Jason.

First, similar to Thor - the switching from one random vote to another random vote seemed awkward and unnatural. Then, his subsequent posts are fairly wordy but lacking any depth or insight into the game, e.g. asking other people who they think is scummy or why (e.g. "What exactly feels fake?" - about a five-word post!), voting people for reasons like 'not moving the game forward' and 'refusing to give opinions'.

Then CES asked me who I'd just voted, and when I told him, he said that jason was also his scum-read from this game, and that jason's play seemed like typical rusty scum, i.e. someone who hasn't played scum in a while. Hence my asking when his last scum game was.

(I also found the idea of the question funny, because it reminded me of the "this is only my second scumgame" moment and, you never know… )

I really am curious what you've gained from asking me about it.

I think that your reasons for doing something that is commonly thought of as anti-town would be different depending on whether you knew this or not. Understanding someone's mindset is useful to to determining their alignment. In this case, your answer didn't ring especially scummy or towny to me, but that doesn't mean the question wasn't worth asking.

[Fenchurch]

EBWOP:

the switching from one random vote to another random vote,

within the same post

, seemed awkward and unnatural.

[Fenchurch]

Well I'm waiting on my teammates to get back to me with any jason meta they might have (anyone else is free to contribute too!) about if he actually tries to pass off irrelevant crap as useful as scum or town or both or whatever. Then I'm going to give Trojan Horse a thorough lookover.

Out of interest, what's stopping you looking through jason's meta yourself? Lack of time/lack of interest? (The latter is a valid reason; meta-reading can be boring.)

And why not give Trojan Horse a lookover first; and why him in particular?

And do you trust meta that much? I think there are some tells that are intuitive and fall outside meta.

[Fenchurch]

Updated reads list:

SleepyKrew - maybe town
Micc - maybe town
Dragons - maybe town
Pieguy - maybe town
Thor - could go either way
Mala - maybe scum
jason - maybe scum

not being read yet:

Egg
Trojan Horse
sthar
Delta
Boon

[Fenchurch]

I'd be interested in this "scumread" you got on me actually. If you could flesh that out it would be grand.

@fen- do you feel like expounding on any of your other reads?

Mostly it's gut, and/or a couple of small things and the rest of the posts either fit with or don't contradict that read. e.g. Dragons - enthusiastic and seems to be enjoying himself. pieguy - getting reads from team, etc.

The last (and only) game I've played with Mala was Wicked, where she won as scum to my town. Reading through the scum-thread after the game, I felt it should have been a lot more obvious - the way her actual feelings as scum occasionally affected her play in the game. I kinda got the same sense from her opening posts here, that there was a bit of a facade maybe.

Sorry that's not very specific though, when I have time (tomorrow) I'll do a re-read and try and elaborate more.

Oh and SleepyKrew, CES says that Trojan is town so you don't need to worry about reading him

[Fenchurch]

Is he always accurate, or almost always accurate? Could you explain why he's reading Trojan as town?

He says that Trojan was obvious as scum and got lynched D1 in the last Team Mafia.

Also, I've just seen that CDB read this game overnight! He has Egg and SKrew as town, jason as scum, and says that is who he'd be voting right now.

Yay!

[Fenchurch]

He has looked fairly townish lately. He could be a townie who just made an awkward first post, or he could be scum who has recovered well from an early slip-up. My scumread on him is weakening, and I need to be careful of that. He can be quite a capable scum.

Huh, I have the opposite reaction. I feel more sure that jason is scum, and would love to see his lynch...

Boon is someone you do not want around late in the game, he has proven he is a liability and there is no town motive from him in anything he has said so far. Do not let him get anywhere near to an end game situation if you truely want town to win this game.

This doesn't seem jason actually believes Boon is scum - scum aren't a 'liability' to the town, and the point about endgame sounds more like he is talking about a town-player who might make the wrong choice.

I was asked about how I feel about my wagon earlier, the one thing that I find interesting, and quite concerning is there actually is no viable counter wagon. This wagon on me seems very driven without consideration to anything else. I can handle the wagon on me, the fact there is little alternative cropping up still is concerning though, leading me to believe there may well be scum motive somewhere on my wagon.

I can't see why any town player would look at their wagon like this. The point about counter-wagons seems basically irrelevant. I would expect a townie to look at the players voting him, look at their reasons, and try and figure out whether each of those are scum or town reasons. But I don't get the impression that jason is doing that at all. And "there may well be scum motive somewhere on my wagon" is about the most non-committal statement ever!

[Fenchurch]

As for Boon. I'd rather he gave the 'I'm crraaaazzzzyyy' stuff a miss, but my instincts were to ignore that as null. I thought this point he made seemed reasonable:

Boon why do you have such an issue with Jason calling out your RVS vote out of RVS stage, but when I called it out it got ignored?

It's how he went about doing it. He didn't start doing it until

after

he decided to "scum" read me.

I also thought jason's three-post-vote on Boon seemed really deliberate and forced.

But I've got no experience with Boon, and it is possible that Egg-team's points about his meta, in #201 are valid…

[Fenchurch]

Other things... I think Egg's play seems good and likely town.

I'll let Fenchurch answer instead of discussing that reads list further.

If there is something that I am expected to answer, I must have missed it.

I want Fench, STD and Pie to acknowledge/respond to my last set of posts.

It didn't strengthen my feelings either way, I still don't have a strong read. I agree with some of your points and disagree slightly with others, but nothing that seems important to discuss. I am curious what point Iec made and what you "seeing" in my posts.

Fenchurch, did I get bumped down? This is outrageous!

It's a degenerative system. If you don't do keep doing town stuff you to move closer to scum over time.

Teamtalk: Patrick thinks pieguyn is town, and aside from that, my team say that they will not share with us any more of their reads until we lynch jason, so really we'd best get on that

[Fenchurch]

Fenchurch, Sthar wanted you to "expound" or something.

Oh okay. I already answered that in #150, and I don't have much to add right now. I still find jason overall scummiest, and would like to hear recent opinions on jason from anyone who hasn't already given one.

Not sure why you think I said they know more than I do about your meta

I don't think that's the point Boon was making. It was more, why are you relying on their reads, instead of your own, when you know him better. Is this the case? What is your own read on Boon?

---

Re-reading Mala, I notice she asked jason a question about SK, which I beleive still hasn't been answered.

Actually

vote: SK

While I do not see the initial posts as scum or scum motivated. The avoidance of giving any opinion of his own is telling

I dislike this post a lot though.

Jason can you clarify that you don't believe SK is posting scummy or even scum motivated then why are you voting him? It seems like you are trying to call for a policy lynch on SK more than anything else.

[Fenchurch]

Well there was a question in which you didn't answer so next time you are reading if you could that would make me happy.

Okay, had a look and found it.

Is there a way my read and the read on micc being connected? Are you trying to draw connections pre:flip or are they not connected?

No, not at all, pretty much all those reads are independent. My Micc read was just based on things like #78:

"I'm not asking you to vote a read you don't believe in. I'm trying to figure out what you were doing at that point that was helping move the game forward"

, and some of his questions in #98, which seemed to me more likely coming from a townie mindset.

But it's really not much to go by, and I'd like for Micc to post more.

[Fenchurch]

UNVOTE: Micc

What makes you unvote Micc now? Given that he hasn't really done anything since you last placed your vote.

[Fenchurch]

I hate to be this person, but posts like Delta's #291, #303 and #307 really make me not want to interact with or be a part of this game, so less of that would be grand, thanks.

I'm kinda "eh" on the Jason wagon because it consists of Thor (who's currently null b/c I'm waiting for him to post), Micc (who I was scumreading and i'm waiting on to post) and Fench (whom my teammate, Iec, has some doubts on being town and likely leaning towards scum).

Would you mind sharing Iec's reasoning on me, so I can answer to it?

I've said a fair amount on why I think jason is scum. You haven't really commented on those, instead just commenting on us as players. Have you read them, and what are your thoughts? In fact, you said earlier that you're not that keen on jason for his policy-type votes. What changed there?

SleepyKrew - you're the only player in the game who's not yet placed a single vote. What's your explanation for this? Would you normally wait so long?

Trojan - earlier you mentioned that Tammy expected to be able to get a good read on jason. Has she read the game recently, and if so, what are her current thoughts?

[Fenchurch]

Point me in the direction of it (post no or quote) and I will answer it. You are acting like I am on purpose avoiding things, when I believe I have responded to everything put my way. If I haven't I will be happy to answer it.

Is it really that hard to use the ISO function? Here...

Actually

vote: SK

While I do not see the initial posts as scum or scum motivated. The avoidance of giving any opinion of his own is telling

I dislike this post a lot though.

Jason can you clarify that you don't believe SK is posting scummy or even scum motivated then why are you voting him? It seems like you are trying to call for a policy lynch on SK more than anything else.

[Fenchurch]

I challenge you to show me exactly where (

both you and Micc

) where I said ANYTHING about a policy lynch.

You've not used the words 'policy lynch' yourself at any time, it's just that the reasons you are using to go after people often seem to amount to policy ones.

[Fenchurch]

I agree with a whole bunch of Thor's observations in #327, although I don't support the subsequent stuff on STDragons. To me STDragons' righteousness and indignation sounds more like town than scum.

That's untrue. I have placed exactly one vote so far. It was a pressure vote. No other votes yet because no scumreads yet. Does it normally take this long for me to get a scumread? Probably not.

You're right! I'm sorry I missed it, and I'm glad I found out about it now.

If you don't have scumreads, do you have townreads? Do you have reads?

It's weird you are still trying to work me out, and the fact you are hanging on for Tammy's opinion seems like you are stalling not wanting to say anything incase it derails the lynch, also if Tammy has experience with me, I (and this is backed up by Zach) would expect her to have something already this deep into the game or even something to say at least.

I am not hanging on for Tammy's opinion. You're my top scum pick (though less so than at the start), so I'm voting for you. I only brought it up because Fenchurch asked about it. As for Tammy not yet having a read on you: I just got a message from her, and she apologized for losing track of our games due to busyness. I'm sure she'll have a more solid read soon.

Why less so than at the start?
Does it bother you that jason seems to overblow and exaggerate everything that is posted about him?

[Fenchurch]

Nope! I'm feeling pretty mentally checked out. I intend to do a nice thorough reread eventuality, but I don't know if that will happen D1. Have I mentioned how much I hate day ones?

My method is pretty much:
a) read what person is doing
b) think 'can I see myself doing this as town?'
c) think 'can I see myself doing this as scum?'
d) draw conclusions

Also, votechart. All the way votechart.

Spoiler:

Do you prefer playing as scum or town?
If you had a one-time-only dayvig shot right now, who would you shoot, if anyone?

[Fenchurch]

Is that 5?

UNVOTE: jason

This is only an unvote to avoid a quicklynch. I'm still eyeing jason.

Why unvote? 7 votes are needed to lynch, L-2 doesn't seem that risky to me (even Boon can't lol-hammer by himself). At some point we do need a lynch, and preferably with a claim first. I'd rather we don't wait a week until deadline for that to happen.

Mala - I'm sorry to hear about your cat, and look forward to hearing from you once you're back!

pieguyn, sthar, Micc - please check in when you can. You've each made around 10 posts or fewer, we need to hear more from you.

Everyone

- we've currently got 6 'wagons' with one-vote each. We need to consolidate. (Preferably onto jason.)

[Fenchurch]

I think that a large number of people who are active proponents of this wagon (THOR), or softly pushing/encouraging it from the sidelines without committing to a firm stance on jason either way (Mala, DW, sthar, maybe Micc/SK) are likely scum.

I don't see my name here, even though I've been pushing a jason-lynch for a while now. Is that because you don't think I'm scum because of it, or did you just miss me off the list?

first off, I think it's pretty apparent jason has reasons for Boon being scum that aren't based on playstyle

Can you explain what these are?

I see jason finding a match between this game and Boon's scum-meta. Boon then posts links to games where he says it also matches his town-meta, which

jason chooses to ignore

. (He still has yet to acknowledge them). Since then, I don't think jason has done anything to elaborate further on his case on Boon.

As for the earlier points jason made on Boon, these seem more like attacks based on playstyle:
#160 - "

Are you HONESTLY and legit reading someone as town, because she thinks you are town, not scum?

" Yes this is bad play, but I've seen plenty of townies do it, and jason does nothing to explain why it's a scumtell.
#171 - Boon's jumbled posts from early game, again, I've seen plenty of townies do this. Here jason does give an argument for Boon being scum ("

you were worried that attention might slip away from me and onto actual scum

"), but it's one that I find weak and insincere. Whereas I do think these fluff-posts of Boon's are an easy target for scum to attack.

I think some of the reasons you give for finding sthar scummy are the same as the ones I see in jason (misinterpreting the arguments against him, building cases for show only), and I'll try and go into more detail on these later.

---

I have notsci telling me that this is Mala's town game. I still don't see it, but that's good enough for me to want her off the table for now.

I hope you'll understand if I don't put too much faith in notsci, as this was my last experience of him town-reading Mala.

Personally, I find Mala's play kinda wishy-washy, and that's why she's still in my possible-scum pile. I don't see that she's taken a strong stance on anyone yet or made especially incisive observations.

I agree with your comments on DW and sthar, and I'm agnostic on Thor (probably because I agree overall with the jason case).

---

People keep stressing that I get more involved and then not commenting on the posts I do make. Scum points for them even though I cant remember who it was off the top of my head.

Could be me, and that's because since page 5 you haven't posted anything I've found worth commenting on, and both of your catch-ups have been skimreads - as demonstrated by the fact that you don't even know who you're giving scum points to...

I saw the words intent to hammer and claim at some point, so this is me making it clear that im no where near ready for that.

I think you are misreading here, I don't believe anyone has given intent to hammer or asked for a claim. There are 5 (perhaps) willing to vote jason, but Trojan unvoted because he also said he isn't ready for a lynch.

[Fenchurch]

while ignoring posts like 160/162 and 222 which have nothing to do with playstyle, comes from town

Do you agree with jason that Boon seems scummy for the reasons given in these posts? Presumably not, because you had Boon as town shortly after that in #104.

So if you don't think these posts really indicate Boon scum, then we're in pretty much the same place.

Maybe the difference is that I do think they are particularly easy posts for scum to pick up on and criticise, that Boon's erratic posting style is exactly the kind that would draw attention from scum trying to fabricate a case on someone.

[Fenchurch]

Re: the refusal to discuss tokens - I've been hesitant to see this as a tell either way, because if they chose to grab scum tokens, I couldn't understand why they wouldn't just lie and say something different. Although it's possible that they think a lie would be unconvincing, because of what is known about their individual metas, or predictions about team behaviour...

My team-mate CES does think it might be a tell against jason. He points out that jason won the Mini Normal last year as scum, and may have been tempted to go for the same again. Especially if his team are aiming to win Team Mafia overall - winning as scum puts you in a better position than winning as town, because you share the win with fewer other players.

[Fenchurch]

Not moving goal posts - solid fact

Scum game Boon boasts about hammering town.
This game Boon boasts about hammering town.

There is no town motive to boast about hammering town.

Scum

jason:

This

is the game where Boon actually quickhammers his town-read. It's Ninja Mafia - the first of the links he posted in #241. The quickhammer was anti-town and he took a lot of flak for it. But Boon wasn't scum.

[Side note: you say he boasts about hammering town, but actually he was boasting about hammering his 'town-read'. In that game, Thor was a town-read of Boon's who had gained a wagon on Day 1, and Boon decided he'd rather get the lynch done than trust himself on his read, and placed the hammer. The play was a poor one, but the quickhammer was on scum.]

That's why you seem to be lynching him for a playstyle/policy argument, rather than a scumhunting one. No one is arguing that some of Boon's claimed play is anti-town, but you're failing to say why his play here connects

more

to his scum game than his town game.

[Fenchurch]

So we agree that Trojan's up to something?
I don't wanna start something on him though D:

I know what you mean.

[Fenchurch]

So many wallposts these past two evenings. I'm trying to get ready for a meet!

I haven't caught up with all these essays yet, but none of the arguments I've seen grab me. If I was going to compromise I might vote sthar. pie is the person I trust most besides myself.

Would still most like to lynch jason. Would like him to respond to my #511, and Sleepy's #535.

[Fenchurch]

okay the major thing that Iec didn't like about Fenchurch was the talking about dice-rolling etc in regards to STD. He felt that it didn't really have her sorting out his alignment by questioning on it nor did it really contribute much to the question at hand.

~My read~

I'm also not really feeling the Fenchurch that I saw in wicked either. I don't remember her really posting readslists like she's doing here with nothing of substance to back it up. Like besides a select few people that she's had to explain her reads on I don't know how she's gaining these reads. They aren't transparent.

I'm also not sure I agree with the major sticky vote that she has been doing with Jason. I understand that she has a scumread on Jason and where it stems from, but it seems like she's trying to use things from past game team-mafia as leverage to get 'rid' of Jason.

I have my own niggles of Jason, but these reasons why she has a scumread on Jason feels more safe. I think Fench is playing a safe game to the point she has the game at arm's length.

I just personally don't like her posts at this point.

I think you might be comparing my Day 1 play here to my later-game play in Wicked. I'd say my Day 1 here is pretty standard for me. I have some reads but not all of them are strong, and most are gut-based. I always post my reads lists, so at the very least people can compare mine to their own, and I've explained them, especially when asked, in as much depth as I have. Do you have stronger reads or reasons than mine? Do you disagree with the points I've made more than with anyone else?

Iec's point seems really minor and I don't have much more to say about that which I didn't already - I thought the response could have been alignment-indicative but I wasn't looking for anything I particular. I'd be curious to know if he has updated that read, or is still following the game.

Someone asked about my pie-town read. I find her thoughts clearly laid out and easy to follow, and they are ones that seem to come from a town mindset to me, and I think this is difficult to fake as scum.

I still find STD town, I think his exasperation at the attacks on him seems genuine (and maybe this is in part because I don't see the attacks on him as especially valid).

[Fenchurch]

Okay. The first time I ever lynched a PR-claim D1 (Scumdon invitational) they were town and I really regretted it, and the second time I was unwillingly involved in a similar lynch as a hydra (Wicked Mafia), they were also town - and it made me super angry at my hydra partner. And whilst I understand the argument in favour of still lynching the claimant (otherwise scum can always fake claim to avoid a D1 lynch), I'm currently of the position that it annoys me so much if I'm wrong that I don't want to risk it.

And my scum read on Jason is not strong enough that I'd wouldn't prefer to give it a Day or two so he has a chance to confirm himself by dying in the Night.

UNVOTE:

For the people asking about bodyguards and mod-meta, for what it's worth, the last Nexus mini-game I played was a UK invitational that had Myko as a 1-shot-doc-1-shot-bodyguard. I find bodyguard a plausible role for this game.

I don't really know who I want to vote instead. I don't have any strong scum reads now, and it's basically impossible for me to re-read the game this week (I'm currently at the UK meet and aside from being busy, I'm connecting via my phone which takes about 10 minutes just to load a page).
My current reads list amounts to this:

pie - town
Dragons - prob town
Egg - maybe town
Jason - free pass for now

Trojan - mixed, not sure
Sleepy - no idea
Thor - no idea
Boon - no idea
Delta - null
sthar - null
Micc - null

Sorry; I am aware that's pretty lame, like I said I can't put as much effort into scum-hunting as I would like right now, and I'm not going to fake strong reads which I don't have.

CES thinks Thor is a reasonable lynch. The point that was made about him being deliberately aggressive as scum is a fair one (although his play is presumably similar as town). My reservation on lynching Thor is that I think he has a reputation for being good as town. But then, reputation isn't everything, and there are plenty of good players who don't have a reputation.

I'd be pretty happy lynching Boon, who I don't have any town read on and think I may never get a reliable read on. So! I'm willing to switch, but for now:

VOTE: Thor

pie - your extended reads list has an asterisk next to Micc and Delta. What did this mean? Sorry if the reason is obvious but I missed it.

[Fenchurch]

Ugh. I feel like an idiot now for explaining that I don't want to lynch a D1 PR-claim, because that is basically telling scum they ought to fake claim and increasing chances of a town lynch. I mean I guess it does at least hinder scum play by locking them into a particular claim for the rest of the game, but some claims, like the Hider one, might be hard to disprove.

Ugh ugh ugh.

I dont like Thor's claim as much as Jason's because it came after I said that, and for the claim itself. Bodyguard is a harder fakeclaim to maintain as there are likely to be points in the game where he'd be expected to die. Whereas CES thinks hider is a 'fashionable fake claim' for scum, in part because it's not hard to justify your continued survival as one. He also points out that it's no longer on the Normal whitelist, and CDB thinks it's not the type of role Nexus would use. So my team are more inclined to lynch Thor than Jason, but that's based largely on the claims as they haven't kept up with all of the game.

Look at both mine, and Thor wagons... look at who was on them at the height of the wagon pre claim. See who was on them both.

I think it'd be foolish to only look at the wagons. I've been on both, and aside from the fact that I know I'm not scum, wagons are required to get lynches, and lynches are pro-town.

[Fenchurch]

I'm torn. CES thinks Thor is still the best lynch, and I can understand why, the claim itself seems scummy to me, and I now feel more keenly the problem with never lynching claims. But...

Patrick thinks it's worth looking for an alternate lynch e.g. sthar or Mala. I'd probably have preferred Mala but I don't like lynching when she's V/LA, so:

UNVOTE:
VOTE: sthar

Thor, just to double-check, are you saying that if you and Jason both go into N1, you'll hide behind him, then if you die we'll know Jason is scum? If so I am okay with this plan. If at least one of you is town then we stand to gain information from that. Worst case scenarios are either both are scum (but I feel this could be analysed based on play and interactions) or both town (scum could gain two kills, but we benefit from not wasting mislynches on them).

He also points out that it's no longer on the Normal whitelist

Why does this part matter?

He says that most Normal games use only the whitelisted roles, that Nexus is part of the Normal Review Group, and he thinks that Nexus would be more likely to put together a 'typical' Normal game. It's not an iron-clad thing to me, but it's another factor in one of the claims seeming better than the other.

[Fenchurch]

It was still whitelisted when this setup was designed though. Well, I guess the NRG could've made that decision a while before it was announced.

Yes to the second bit, and he says Nexus would know it had fallen out of favour. I still am not ain't its not possible, though.

Strange. I would've thought a hider claim would be harder to maintain, because as long as the claimed-hider-scum is alive, he has to act as a cop of sorts.

Is making up results that damaging to a scum game? I acknowledged that it has some downsides, but as scum he can make up results that suit him and swing the game. To me the main issue with a Hider claim is that it doesn't have the same short life-expectancy of a claimed Cop or Bodyguard.

Hider is semi confirmable over time though. Bodyguard kind of is to an extent, but only if Jason either dies or fails to protect an obvious target. But pre-claim, Jason's play definitely was more lynch worthy than Thor's. *shrug*. I don't feel great about a new wagon popping up and getting yet another power role claim and I still think Jason is scum anyway.

I agree with all these things, but I nevertheless think that both claims if town have the potential to confirm themselves and/or give us information even after a single night, and would prefer to allow for this opportunity first.

Who would be your next choice for lynch?

[Fenchurch]

I'm disappointed not to find more posts here this morning, with just 1 day to deadline, I think there are some who have not even commented on the claims yet. I'd also like Thor to confirm his planned night action, and clarify about his role.

Fenchurch, you don't have a single scum read?!?

I still think both of the claimants are scummy, but I want to give both a chance to confirm themselves (or give us info) before I would lynch them. Also, I re-read both sthar and Mala this morning, and sthar is still null for me, but more on Mala below.

Prior to claim I definitely found Jason's play scummy, although I do concede it's possible this is down to wildly different playstyles. I've read pie's counter argument but it doesn't really compensate for the things I find suspect. His push on Boon rests mainly on a thing Boon said once in a scum game and said again here. This is a fairly weak case in my opinion, and doesn't merit the weight jason gave it.

Prior to claim I found Thor potentially scummy for being needlessly antagonistic (a strategy I think he is likely to employ as scum), but I find him even more so post-claim.

My team talked again this morning about the Hider claim. My one issue with the plan of Thor hiding behind jason Tonight is, what if jason is scum, Thor-town, and the scum team have a roleblocker. Would they be able to roleblock Thor, he wouldn't die, and then we would think jason is confirmed town? CES says these are the kind of reasons why Hider was taken off the whitelist: it's interactions with other roles is unclear or unintuitive.

sthar, some of the other Nexus-mod games you checked are not Normals, is that right? CDB says the siblings were from a Harry Potter mini theme, although it was a fairly Normal theme, apparently. Not that it makes a big difference as I still think it is ~possible~ that Nexus would use a Hider.

If I was going to lynch either claimant now it would be Thor, because I think the claim itself, the circumstances surrounding it, and his subsequent absence all seem scummy. But I think we are in a much better position if we lynch elsewhere today, as we have the chance to gain more information about both Thor and Jason from the Night.

I'm not VLA anymore so if you want to push my lynch; I'd look forward to a case that doesn't relate to wicked and actually had some substance of this game so I can try to refute the case on me.

Well you hadn't commented much on the game since you came out of VLA so it didn't feel like you were.

And that feeds in to the essence of my case on Mala, which I did give once before. I've just re-read her ISO and I still see very little by way of substance; lots of vacillating on some players (notably Jason and Thor), some comments about things that 'bother' her, but no real pushes to get a lynch. Scum want to give reads (to look like their scum hunting) but don't have the same inherent desire to get a lynch, and they may even be hesitant to push as their reads will be put to the test. I thought her case on me had no real substance and the Iec thing is pretty weak considering she mentioned it twice beforehand as something she needed to think more about. She disagrees with my early-game read on SleepyKrew seeming town for his confidence, but provides no explanation about why saying this would make me scum.

And Mala, I think it's unreasonable of you to expect me to ignore Wicked in reading you, when that is our only previous game together, and you are also referencing Wicked in your read of me.

[Fenchurch]

Since pie has already switched away from sthar, and the re-read makes me more confident on Mala-scum, I'm moving my vote, although I'm willing to move again in order to get a lynch. But I'd much prefer not to lynch Thor or jason Today.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Malakittens

Sleepy - what is your read on Mala?

[Fenchurch]

I have posted quite a bit on the last few days. I'm not yet up to the place I want to be at posting level wise, but it will come in time. I want to clear something up I didn't mean totally disregard Wicked as a whole, but I feel you are incorrectly placing a meta. You don't have firsthand knowledge of my town game and to a lesser extent to my scum game either. You're applying bad meta, end of story. I think you are using meta in a biased view rather than the way you should be using it. You are taking a year old (plus) scum game and trying to fabricate a scum read against me with it. You did this with Jason too, you took Team Mafia and you tried to fabricate that read against Jason with it. You're not taking the time out to see that you could be wrong, that my both my metas might have shifted in the last year or so.

The points in my latest post don't actually relate to your Wicked meta though; they are things that I find inherently scummy. And can you explain in what way I 'tried to fabricate' a read on jason? Token speculation is perfectly valid as far as I'm concerned - it makes some players more likely to be scum than others - and I was sharing relevant information from jason's meta. That was hardly the basis for my scumread on him though, which I think is perfectly clear from the rest of the game.

Besides, Thor placed much more emphasis on the token thing than I did. Why weren't you bothered by that?

I think you are playing a safe game. You have only pushed really three four people all game this game. You pushed Jason (things said above) and you voted Thor (which was Jason's counter) which essentially boils down to a safe vote etc. Then you voted Sthar who you had listed as a null-read in post 694 , but then voted him a few posts later in 726 because Patrick says to look for an alternative lynch. Afterwards you then started to push me after I clarified that I wasn't on VLA.

I fail to see how pushing hard for the majority of Day 1 to get my main scumread lynched is a 'safe' game, or a scummy one. Nor how any of my subsequent pushes have been 'safe'. And I was the one looking for an alternative lynch after Thor's claim, I only mentioned Patrick because he suggested Mala/sthar who are our mutual scumreads. The other two on my team would have stuck with voting Thor for the bad claim.

Most of your quote is just summarising my votes. I still don't see any explanation from you about why any of my play makes you think I'm scum.

Fenchurch, the mala vote kind of sucks right now. We are in a deadline compromise situation and mala has no other votes if I'm not mistaken.

Mala is my current top scumread, and at the time of my vote there wasn't a clear competing wagon that wasn't on a PR-claim. I hadn't presented my full thoughts on Mala, and I hoped others of you would be persuaded once I did.

If that isn't the case, then it looks like my options are between Thor, who I am reading as scum but would like not to lynch because of the claim, and Trojan Horse, who I don't have a good read on. I will try and reread Trojan now, but can anyone summarise the case on him? The only remember as scummy was his weird switch to Delta because he 'couldn't decide between his top two scumreads'. Is there more than that?

[Fenchurch]

SKrew, I agree with the point you are making in your questions, and I also don't agree with Jason's logic, but faulty logic doesn't make him necessarily scum (although it can be a tell), and I'm not interested in lynching him today, so I also think it's not helping.

Sthar, I'm not sure why you wouldn't have prioritised reading more of the game and commenting on Thor's claim, rather than writing a mini-essay on Mafia theory.

I've re-read Trojan. I still don't find him especially scummy, or especially town.

I realised that Thor declared VLA until after deadline, which is unfortunate.

This is a horrible choice. I would still like more people to consider Mala-scum, or else explain to me why Trojan is more likely scum.

I'll vote for one of Trojan or Thor by tomorrow if necessary to make sure we get a lynch, so consider my vote on one of those wagons, but I don't have any strong preference which so I'm not going to make the vote now.

[Fenchurch]

Im not done catching up yet pie, but do you have a new question for me?

STHAR

You are calling to 'lynch Thor' but also saying that you aren't caught up with the game, so why are you wasting time focusing on the Q&A session when we are 6 hours from deadline and don't yet have a lynch?

I asked you in my last post to comment on Thor's claim. It's scummy that you are not doing this. If you don't believe the claim, please say so and your reasons why.

[Fenchurch]

Overnight I decided I would go with the Trojan lynch. Even though he's still a null read for me, and his wagon are also a bunch of null or weak reads, which makes me inclined to think that Trojan might be town and the wagon is (at least partly) scum driven. But my other hunch is that Thor and Trojan might both be town, and scum are in the players hanging around but not really giving commentary on the wagons (Mala, sthar, one other). And I still think the better long term play would be to let town-Thor confirm jason's alignment before we lynch him. I can understand why that might not be of value to pie though, as she has a strong town-read on jason; but it would help me immensely.

That said, 2 out if 3 of my teammates think Thor is the better lynch. I've been waiting to see which way some of the lurkers wouldgo. Now that most votes have been placed, I'll have a little think and then add mine. (If it's Trojan, I'll ask for a claim first.)

[Fenchurch]

You still didn't need to claim it Trojan,but it's done now.

This is painful because I've been in this position before and CES insisted that our hydra lynch the PR, when the VT turned out to be scum who won the game. And so I'll be so annoyed if CES talks me into lynching the PR again this game, and it's the wrong play again. The difference is that in that game I was pretty damn sure the claimant was town, whereas here, I think the claimant is more likely scum out of the two. But if both are town, then the better play is to lynch the VT.

[Fenchurch]

Fench Sthar is voting Thor.

How is that not giving a comment on a stance?

He's not even acknowledged the claim, and has explicitly said that he's not fully caught up on the game. It's normal as a townie to re-evaluate your target when they claim a power role. I'm pretty sure everyone else on the wagon has commented; I want to know sthar's thought process, assuming he's done this.

[Fenchurch]

If you plan on voting Thor, you still need one vote in addition to yours

Yes, I assume someone would change is necessary, to get a lynch. It's the pro-town thing to do.

[Fenchurch]

Okay I'm gonna vote Thor. Talked it over with my team and we're pretty sure that Trojan is town, and that Thor has a reasonable chance of being scum. Patrick also believes that the utility of town-Thor-Hider is reduced now he's claimed, as if he crumbs or claims his targets then scum can double kill when he hides behind town, and that puts us on evens, which probably loses us a lynch overall. I wasn't sold on this at first because I'd be kinda happy with a double-kill if it takes out two scummy players, but it seems that maybe just lynching Thor has the same net effect, and is the right thing to do if he's scum.

That's not the only reason, but it helps.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Thor

[Fenchurch]

Given that he hasn't posted in the past 1.5 days when it would have been useful to hear more from him, I am not counting on Thor showing up in the next 30 minutes before deadline.

[Fenchurch]

There isn't a standard for Hiders, sometimes they are immune but it depends what the mid chooses and/or what's specified in the role PM. That's why it would have been useful to hear from Thor. It's also why my team think the claim is fake.

[Fenchurch]

If Thor is scum, then no lynch just loses us a Day.

[Fenchurch]

if Thor is town, no-lynching puts us in a similar position to if we do lynch him. The claimed Hider has a good chance of dying with a townie in the night.

If Thor is scum, no-lynching is just bad for us.