Newbie 1902 l Amphibians l Game Over

[NotNova]

VOTE: nousername757

There's only one town anonymous user in this game and it's me

@skitter, do you recognize any of the players in this game?

[NotNova]

Anything I should know about them? Would you have trouble reading them?

[NotNova]

@YyottaCat, how much experience do you have playing mafia? Would you say you prefer playing mafia or town?

[NotNova]

hoppy hoppy frog and some salamanders in the pond...
Nousername757: If they are randomly picking with a reason thats is an excuse, they are probably mafia while mew is town.

If they do actually vote becaus they hate Mew (the pokémon), then the post is useless.

Nousername757 is more likely to be mafia than mew.

I've done something similar when voting nousername — do you think it makes me scummy? Why do you believe this kind of excuse is scummy at this point in the game?

Not necessarily, but it is common for newbies to be distrustful of the IC.

huh, in my experience i've found the opposite, that newbies are often hesitant to lynch the ic

I don't think these two claims are mutually exclusive. I believe IC status is perceived as the player being more skilled as either alignment — which makes them both harder to trust and to lynch on account of being pocketed or lynching a potentially valuable town player.

Personally I don't have an issue with lynching an IC if there's good reason for it, but in case I were lynching between roughly equivalent null players, I'd probably pick the one who has less ability to solve on subsequent days


As a side note, I implore everyone who doesn't have an avatar to get one, it makes it much easier to tell you apart at a glance.

[NotNova]

EBWOP: I now realize I've repeated some of Mewtaph's points, missed his post when making mine. Gotta learn to pay more attention when posting on mobile.

Anyone wanna vote nousername with me?

[NotNova]

UNVOTE: nousername
VOTE: YyottaCat

I'm getting scummy vibes from Yyotta's posting, not a fan of the lack of transparency. I'll explain when I get to a computer tonight.

[NotNova]

Spoiler: Long quote wall

Anyone wanna vote nousername with me?

why do you want to wagon him?

EBWOP: I now realize I've repeated some of Mewtaph's points, missed his post when making mine. Gotta learn to pay more attention when posting on mobile.
Anyone wanna vote nousername with me?

Do you have a reason to?

I didn't have any legitimate reason to find nousername scummy.
I put a lot of stock in early wagons to get the game going, it creates meaningful content to analyze fairly early - avoids the sort of scenario we have here.

I do think there is actual reason to vote YyottaCat however.

Since overki replaced nousername and I was originally voting nousername,
UNVOTE: skitter30
VOTE: overki

If I answer scum, then I'm basically done
If I answer town, due to the lack of trust I'm still basically done

So I'm just not going to answer anything

What? There’s no jester roll so it doesn’t benifit you to be lynched, why wouldn’t you be willing to answer questions this early?

@notnova good to see you again!

Well, it doesn't benefit me if I do answer, does it?
Either way, I'm still stuck with the scum title

Here's a mafia chart of trust:
Answer/Reply: Scum Town
Scum BN BN
Town NB BB

So, as you can see there, it is only beneficial for me if others think I'm town, but as of for now, that is basically imposible
It is always beneficial for others to choose that I'm scum than town, and since they are trying to lynch me, that is what they will do
I'm just going to end myseslf here and say that I'm scum.
So just stop shouting at my face
I admit it ok?
If you were wrong it's not my fault, because this is what I'm forced to do right now

I am so confused as to what YyottaCat is actually trying to say right now.

What I'm trying to say is, there is a much higher chance of you thinking I'm scum no matter if I say I'm scum or town

These two posts are very clearly flailing FMPOV. I have no clue what the "mafia chart of trust" means, but it's clear YyottaCat believes they'll be seen as scum no matter what. After the slightest push. On page 4. How does that make any sense?

Would you prefer playing as mafia or town, notnova?

I much prefer town - but I don't get the sense in asking this question. I asked you because I have nothing to compare your play to, so if that was your intention, you can feel free to check my past games.

hoppy hoppy frog and some salamanders in the pond...
Nousername757: If they are randomly picking with a reason thats is an excuse, they are probably mafia while mew is town.

If they do actually vote becaus they hate Mew (the pokémon), then the post is useless.

Nousername757 is more likely to be mafia than mew.

I've done something similar when voting nousername — do you think it makes me scummy? Why do you believe this kind of excuse is scummy at this point in the game?

Not necessarily, but it is common for newbies to be distrustful of the ic
huh, in my experience i've found the opposite, that newbies are often hesitant to lynch the ic

I don't think these two claims are mutually exclusive. I believe IC status is perceived as the player being more skilled as either alignment — which makes them both harder to trust and to lynch on account of being pocketed or lynching a potentially valuable town player.

Personally I don't have an issue with lynching an IC if there's good reason for it, but in case I were lynching between roughly equivalent null players, I'd probably pick the one who has less ability to solve on subsequent days


As a side note, I implore everyone who doesn't have an avatar to get one, it makes it much easier to tell you apart at a glance.

Or is it the excuse I'm using to do a plan...?

@YyottaCat, how much experience do you have playing mafia? Would you say you prefer playing mafia or town?

IDK honestly, but I would

probably

prefer mafia. The only reason is probably the private chats so I can have more thing to do. Also, I have basically 0 mafia experience here, but I'll try my best. Also this might be easier than playing mafia in real life, just because if you are a mafia meember, you won't start laughing for some weird reasons on the next day.

i guess i'm asking because this post seems to me like it's kinda written from scum's pov - you're comparing this game to a game of irl mafia and saying that scum may have it easier here, in forum mafia, if i'm understanding this post right

yep

These were the two posts I had in mind when making my vote.
The first one is incredibly opaque - what sort of plan could possibly be behind accusing someone of being scummy for making an unreasoned vote in RVS?
The second one is vague as well, but I'm almost willing to call it a scumclaim: "this is written from scum pov" "yep".
Considering they claimed scum in another post, what gives?

Questions I have from this:

Is Yyotta flailing? If so, is it scumflail or newbflail?
Do you believe Yyotta would have been coached better if they were scum, considering scum have access to daychat? (I believe Yyotta is scum with another newbie, if they are, FTR.)

@YyottaCat, why do you believe you will be seen as scum no matter what?
What was the intention behind your post 35?

As a side note, I've been townleaning Overki11's posts, trying to get the game going is definitely a town-motivated move.
@Overki11, do you have any useful reads so far?

[NotNova]

And hi, Thespio. No hard feelings over last game I hope
Feel free to help out town in trying to get a read on me, I think you have a much better chance to read me considering you caught me as scum last time.

[NotNova]

Yyvota and probably Starry are my scumleans.

Is it the contradictory post? I think they just got confused over names - why do you think there's something more there?

[NotNova]

@skitter, it seems you're starting to develop meaningful reads — why are you still sitting on your RVS vote?

[NotNova]

why are you asking me about my rvs vote?

The reason is twofold:

a) I think talking around someone for long enough without voting them is a minor scumtell, so I wanted to get your thoughts on the matter.

b) I like the theory of the vote as a "weapon." Essentially, I think one should in most cases be voting whoever they find scummiest at the time to put more pressure on the slot and develop a solid read.
In addition, I think this works very well early in the game — from my experience, the game moves out of RVS very quickly after a wagon gets to L-2 or L-1.

Do you disagree with this? Why do you find merit in waiting around when the game has been stalled for quite a while?

[NotNova]

Since overki replaced nousername and I was originally voting nousername,
UNVOTE: skitter30
VOTE: overki

is there an actual reason behind voting me or is this OMGUS again?

Answer please.

I'll answer town, I'm totally being honest

Um... How does that answer the question?

[NotNova]

Honestly I almost feel like Yyotta's literally claiming scum and we're all just too aghast to realize it.

[NotNova]

I also think that the game is basically out of rvs at this point; im not sure we necessarily need a wagon rn to take the game out of rvs given that i think we're out of it already

I also disagree that im 'waiting around' or that the 'game has been stalled for a while'

a) it's page4; i'm still getting my bearings and the game isn't hasn't really become *serious* yet imo; like we're still transitioning out of rvs and i don't feel like my vote is needed elsewhere or anything at this point

b) the person i think is scummiest rn is probably yyottacat but i'm still trying to sort her and i'm not sure if she's an inexperienced player who sort of comes off as being scummy even as town or if she's actually flailing scum rn; i'm kinda getting the vibe that voting her will make her less likely to talk to me and/or answer my questions

why are you asking me about my rvs vote?

Aren't these two posts at odds?

By "waiting around" I meant "waiting around to cast a 'serious' vote", which you admitted to doing.
The game might not have been "stalled" per se, but certainly it has been quite slow? 4 pages in a bit over 4 days with a lot of them being replacement notifications doesn't feel like a very high tempo to me.

Does "transitioning out of RVS" mean in RVS or not in RVS? Certainly I'd lean toward the former in the context of your post, am I wrong?

Let's try a different line - do you have strong feelings about anyone that isn't Yyotta? Leaning town or scum on anyone? Would you care to join any of the other wagons, if you think voting on Yyotta's is unwise?

[NotNova]

I think skitter is at L-1.

No one vote skitter without claiming intent first!

Quickhammering is effectively claiming scum - in other words, you will get lynched tomorrow. No exceptions.

[NotNova]

False alarm - by my count, starry, Thespio and Yyotta are voting skitter, so L-2.
The above holds whenever someone gets to L-1.

@Mod, can we get a votecount?

Changed my mind again,
UNVOTE: overki
VOTE: skiter

You're just all over the place. Why is skitter scum to you?

PEdit: Thespio was voting at the time I wrote this.

[NotNova]

i think if she flips town you're kinda scummy tbh

Can you elaborate on this?

I think skitter is at L-1.

No one vote skitter without claiming intent first!

Quickhammering is effectively claiming scum - in other words, you will get lynched tomorrow. No exceptions.

what if i had been quickhammered and flipped scum?

True, it's not cut and dry in that case. I didn't entertain the possibility that scum could get quickhammered because I think it's incredibly unlikely.
Whoever quickhammered would probably have to be town tbh, I don't see scum bussing their partner so hard on D1. I'd have to think about it if and when it happens.

The general gist of my post was that quickhammering is anti-town in the vast majority of cases and I stand by that point.

[NotNova]

If that were a real scumclaim I think I would have quit the Newbie queue then and there...

[NotNova]

you're highlighting the notion that she literally scumclaimed. i'm not sure she actually did or if she was trying to say something else there and is just that bad at communicating her thoughts (i don't think she's trying particulalry hard to communicate with other people either, but that's a different story).

ie i think that what she may have been trying to say is: 'anything i say will be viewed as coming from a scum perspective so what's the point of trying and i might as well claim scum and stop trying'. that or she actually did scumclaim. i can't tell which it is really, but you're highlighting the latter interpration. and like, that's scum's dream - a townie literally scum-claimed, just push them for that!

you're also pressuring me to vote her and wagon her, kinda by like indicating it's in my own/town's best interest (by calling me minorly scummy for not having done so + encouraging me to end rvs by wagoning her and telling me that it'll help our stalled game (a description that you walked back when i pointed out that the game isn't really stalled))

I really can't tell which it is either, which is why I'm
a) indulging other players on helping me figure it out (basically what the questions in my post #80 come down to) as well as
b) asking her to clarify her intentions at several points.

I'm sure you agree that her posts have been puzzling at best. If I tell someone "hey, it looks like you're claiming scum here" I expect a town player to say "no, that's not true" and clarify on what's going on. Nothing resembling that has happened.

You're misconstruing me asking you to place a vote - it didn't and doesn't have to be Yyotta. I think it is generally in town's best interest to discard our RVS votes and move on to the meat of the game, as I've said, but you could have picked anyone to push and I would not have complained.

If you're choosing to interpret that as me signalling you should vote Yyotta, then that's on you. Considering my followups to my initial question I don't think it's a justified interpretation of my intentions. If that's what I wanted to have happened, I literally would have asked.

As far as lynching her goes, at the very least I think she'd make for a decent policy lynch, really don't think I'd have much luck solving with her in subsequent days from what I'm seeing so far. There's only so much scummy behavior I can excuse before I WIFOM myself into oblivion.

I can see where you're coming from but it feels like you're picking a very deliberate and uncharitable interpretation of my actions. I don't see much difference between what I was doing when compared to Thespio (who used the "claiming scum" bit when justifying his vote) or overki11 (who just told us he is committed to lynching Yyotta today.)

[NotNova]

I don’t see how that’s written from scum POV, but I guess that’s why I’ve never been a fan of those kind of questions.

Because she's looking at this game and comparing it to how she reacted as scum in a game of irl-mafia (as opposed to, say, how she reacted as town)

Meh. That’s not how I see it.

VOTE: yyotta

Sorry for the absence. This weekend was hectic.

What happened inbetween these posts? Can you walk me through why you're voting Yyotta?

[NotNova]

I don't see much difference between what I was doing when compared to Thespio (who used the "claiming scum" bit when justifying his vote) or overki11 (who just told us he is committed to lynching Yyotta today.)

idk why it feels different to me; it's mostly gut
if i can figure out how to explain it i most certainly will

In other words, there is no difference and you're singling me out for no actual reason. Got it.

RE: the scum claim interpretation:

hi im scum

--

This isn't a friend getting hold of my phone

--

This is truth

Either I'm braindead or this is the most opaque scumclaim possible and my initial claim was correct.

If you're seeing some town rationale for WHY she would do so, I'm open to hearing it — but don't tell me I'm pulling the scumclaim out of a hat.

[NotNova]

sure. he claimed scum. can you tell me why you aren't voting him?

I am? I was the first one to do so.

[NotNova]

Oh my bad. I thought you were voting skitter. I saw a post where you announced he was at l-1.

In that case, why are you questioning me on why I’m voting the person you are voting? It’s fairly obvious why he should be lynched.

Skitter is apparently having second thoughts, so I'd like you to pitch in on whether or not this is just incredibly weird trolling or actual scumflail. Thespio is leaning toward the latter if I'm reading their posts correctly.

I'm not entirely sure, but I'm fine with the lynch as policy.

How do you feel about skitter's play?

[NotNova]

I need to reread the game to refresh my memory on everyone. When I get time that do that I’ll post my thoughts on him. From what I remember early on, nothing realy pinged me but I’ve been absent for a while.

Really wanna see this, so I'm holding you onto the promise.

Spoiler: Offtopic @Thespio

I'm fairly sure you're thinking of Trendall, but I apologize if I offended you in any way, easy to get carried away at times.

[NotNova]

@Mod, I'll be on V/LA until Sunday.

I'm going abroad for a couple of days, will try to post as much as I can but I can't make any promises, sorry guys.

[NotNova]

I think scum is in overki11/starrydash, will explain when I get home tonight with a complete readslist.

[NotNova]

I think scum is in overki11/starrydash, will explain when I get home tonight with a complete readslist.

Hey, I like these reads. I'm down to lynch starrydash.

(btw ... this is my first-ever post in a mafia game, so if I'm doing something wrong, please yell at me.)

Here's me yelling at you: you replaced starrydash.

[NotNova]

Reads:

Townread: Thespio
Townlean: skitter
Null: Numbers, Doughboy
Scumread: crusty/overki11

Spoiler: Thespio

I'm going to agree on the consensus regarding Thespio. He's been asking a lot of the right questions at the right time - casting a wide net when questioning other players and town-incentivized interactions with inactive/difficult-to-read slots makes for a solid townread from me.

Overall "town-curiosity" is the key here IMO, it's hard to properly fake. That, or I'm really underestimating Thespio's scumgame - I did have a bit of pause when he made his early townread on me, but in hindsight I don't think it fits a scum narrative in his overall play.
Either way, with the info I have now, there's never a world where I want to see him flipped today.

Spoiler: skitter

I was really on the rocks when it came to this slot - a lot of her predictions came off as TMI + positioning for D2 after an obvious (from scum-perspective) mislynch. Granted, she's been riding that wave for much of D2 as well, but there's one key post in particular that stands out to me: #176 is a very logical readslist from town!skitter and the way she acknowledged she misinterpreted our initial interactions leads me to believe I was probably wrong on D1. FMPOV scum!skitter could have been pushing the scum!me narrative much, much harder with a solid trajectory set up on D1 - IDT there's any reason to be very cautious there.

The only reason I'm not full-townreading here is that I still think there's a bit of artificiality/scum-incentive from our D1 interactions, but I'm willing to acknowledge it was most likely TvT on our part.

Spoiler: Doughboy

The simplest way to describe Doughboy's play is - lazy. The only question is if it's lazy town or lazy scum.

Doughboy has declined to take advantage of pretty much anything - when questioned, he's pretty much explicitly stated his lack of agenda.
The only thing that stands out as potentially scum-motivated is the mislynch, but Doughboy has been so straightforward on the matter it's almost refuge in audacity if he's scum here.

Overall it's a bit of a "burden of proficiency" matter - I expect Doughboy to know that this doesn't make him look very towny and the fact that he seems to not care very much makes me lean lazy-town on the matter, even if it's WIFOMy.

This is not to be read as an excuse, so feel free to pick up your slack soon.

Spoiler: NotAJumbleOfNumbers

Numbers's contributions have been very mediocre so far - the thought process is pretty vague here. The only thing I'm buying is the "correction as first instinct" excuse, it's so obviously hilariously transparent as a scum-move that I can't see it coming from newb-scum, and frankly, it'd probably be my first thought when I first started playing.

Spoiler: starrydash/crusty

It's inherently a surface-level scumread due to lack of content but the fact that starry used the phrase "reaction test" implies at least some level of understanding of online mafia, as I don't think this is a commonly used piece of mafia vocabulary IRL. Couple this with two seperate warnings about NOT HAMMERING WITHOUT INTENT and I'm willing to believe that starry knew exactly what they were doing.

The subsequent silence was truly deafening - I think this is almost certainly +rand scum.
Crusty's sheep is a pretty weak excuse for a vote in my eyes, so nothing to redeem the slot there.

Spoiler: overki11

Now for the fun one... I'm going to start off by saying that "defensiveness" is a crappy scumtell. What I think isn't is paranoia.
Overki11 has tried to justify his non-scumminess at several points without absolutely any provocation - I think this is indicative of an overawareness that isn't likely to come from town. This preoccupation with defending oneself at the expense of progressing any tangible reads definitely looks very scummy when taken holistically.

This is pretty much what makes Doughboy different from overki11: Doughboy doesn't seem to give a crap, overki11 jumps at shadows so nothing they did would be interpreted as scummy. I think this supports a scum-mindset from overki11.

VOTE: overki11

[NotNova]

Hi, do you have any reads?

What do u think of the votes on you?

I’m townleaning on Thespio and Skitter, less so on Nova, Doughboy and Starry are neutral for me, but 0verki11 seems a bit scummy.

The votes on me basically all came from one reason: my failure to recognize the hammer. In my defense, my first thought on noticing the failed vote tag was to correct it, and I only realized too late that starry had hammered.

Give me one or two sentences justifying these reads.

Thespio makes a really good case against 0verki11 actually. Can I vote for him?

what case? I think hes scummy, but what is it you would be voting based on?

a much more experienced player than i doesn't trust him

Who is this experienced player? What makes you want to trust their reads? Whoever they are, do you find them town and why (not)?

[NotNova]

Mew scumread Numbers, but Mew could of also been killed die to expirenece.

Here's a post I missed originally - I think the fact that Numbers is voting 0verki11 here actually lends scum equity to both of them. I could see this as either 0verki11 distancing from their partner ("might be or might not" is a classic distancing truism) or Numbers trying to eliminate a less townread player in an effort not to get lynched (skitter/Thespio is a soft townblock, and they're both on his wagon.)

[NotNova]

UNVOTE: 0verki11

I do not CC.

[NotNova]

Do me a favor,

Sorry I’m not going to do favors for people I scum read. I’m content with what I’ve done for now. Day is ending and I don’t feel like moving my vote to somebody else.

Okay then, do /me/ this favour or present a more plausible lynch. I don't find your case against Thespio very persuasive.

[NotNova]

I'd like a crusty lynch best, the naked vote on 0verki11 and refusal to answer simple questions have been pretty unconvincing.

I can go with Numbers or Doughboy as well if need be, in order of preference. Anyone got a better idea?

VOTE: crusty

[NotNova]

VOTE: Doughboy
PoE suggests that both scum are within: Roo, Crusty, Doughboy and Number I think.

Who's Roo here exactly? They're not playing in this game.

or Numbers trying to eliminate a less townread player in an effort not to get lynched (skitter/Thespio is a soft townblock, and they're both on his wagon.)

explain this again? i'm not quite following

Assume Numbers is scum.
They were at 2 votes at the time - I think this can be alarming to newb!scum. In addition to the two of you, only 0verki11 has presented any real suspicion on their slot. Thespio/skitter is a perceived townblock (and there can be only one scum among you), so Numbers tries to divert attention from themselves by presenting a wagon on a player who is a) not very townread and b) finds them suspicious.

I think that's a fairly logical process from scum!Numbers, no? I can see scum incentive here.

For the record I think the paranoia makes sense from the perspective of PR!0verki11, which is why I'm not voting there today.

[NotNova]

Thespio, are you implying a Numbers/Doughboy scumteam?

[NotNova]

His “mistake” was either genuine or it wasn’t and he’s now passing it off as one. It all depends on how you read him. If you town read him, you believe his word. If you scum read him, his word is meaningless

Right, it's a matter of interpretation — but you're choosing to interpret it as scummy while using the fact that it's scummy as reasoning — it's circular.

Can you try to compare Thespio's read of crusty's slot to mine or skitter's? I think we've all called the quickhammer scummy — so why Thespio exactly?

[NotNova]

His “mistake” was either genuine or it wasn’t and he’s now passing it off as one. It all depends on how you read him. If you town read him, you believe his word. If you scum read him, his word is meaningless

Right, it's a matter of interpretation — but you're choosing to interpret it as scummy while using the fact that it's scummy as reasoning — it's circular.

Can you try to compare Thespio's read of crusty's slot to mine or skitter's? I think we've all called the quickhammer scummy — so why Thespio exactly?

He voted specifically for the quick hammer. He then voted somebody else who spoke out that it wasn’t scummy.

That’s what I call doubling down. It’s suspicious to me. I don’t see anyone else who did the same.

That being you, yeah? Where's the scum incentive there? FMPOV that's not a prudent thing to do as scum. It'd be easy enough to stay on starry/crusty and try to convince you instead. Objectively I think switching votes there is more +town than +scum, unless you think there's scum incentive for him to antagonize you specifically.

[NotNova]

That being you, yeah? Where's the scum incentive there? FMPOV that's not a prudent thing to do as scum. It'd be easy enough to stay on starry/crusty and try to convince you instead. Objectively I think switching votes there is more +town than +scum, unless you think there's scum incentive for him to antagonize you specifically.

Attacking lhf like I said earlier. It’s easy for scum to take advantage of a player who quick hammers. It’s easy to get people on board that quick hammers are scummy, because they are.

I meant specifically that him "switching votes" to someone who said "quickhammers aren't scummy" implies you're taking issue with him voting you, unless I'm misunderstanding you.

If I'm correctly interpreting your statement, I want to know what exactly makes him switching vote to you scummy.

[NotNova]

You keep shading me without saying what I’ve done that’s antitown.

I could argue you pushing something that’s nai as AI and blatantly ignoring my explanations, role fishing, and misleading people as antitown if you aren’t scum.

So what exactly am I doing that’s anti town?

wrt to the hammer thing - i don't think having a differing opinion as you wrt whether or not the quickhammer was ai and pushing someone based on that opinion is scummy

idon't think he was ignoring your explanations, more not understanding them

i don't think he rolefished

i don't think he was mislreading people, i think he made a mistake

I generally believe the above. I think Doughboy is really overestimating the strength of his read on Thespio and it REALLY bothers me that his initial read was FMPOV basically noncomparative i.e. presented in a vacuum, with little regard to other players. I'll explain more when I'm on my computer again.

I still think the wisest lynch is in Numbers or crusty — crusty's play is still really bothersome to me and regardless of whether or not Thespio vs Doughboy is SvT I think crusty has a very good chance of flipping scum and is an overall good slot to flip if they flip town and we go into LYLO.

[NotNova]

Ugh. That was a really unnecessary claim.

Still think it's crusty.

[NotNova]

I don't CC btw.

[NotNova]

If you're town here Doughboy you really let your emotions get the better if you. Like if you really believe you were being rolefished you played straight into scum's hands, I really don't see a rationale here that makes sense strictly theory-wise, I don't even think it makes your read any stronger :/

[NotNova]

Smh town is going to be lose because everyone is inactive.

By everyone you mean your "hard town" players — overkill, numbers and crusty.

Don't you think you're putting all your eggs in one basket? It really sounds like a ridiculous tunnel. I don't think the question "if not Thespio, then who" is at all unreasonable and I urge you to consider other slots independently of your Thespio scumread.

[NotNova]

If you actually had reads you'd offer to lynch someone you found null. Stop being stubborn. You can't complain about how horrible town's play is and then make town go into MYLO because you can't let go of your pet read.

[NotNova]

I know the difference between MYLO and LYLO. Doughboy explicitly refuses to lynch anyone but Thespio and he's the only person SRing him. I refuse to be blackmailed by someone who won't look outside their tunnel.

My reads haven't changed generally except for buying PR!0verki11. In hindsight the paranoia makes sense from newb!PR to me.

I can go in detail on why I find Thespio town but generally I think Doughboy's case against him is thin and tunnelly. I don't think he was rolefishing, wanting to lynch a quickhammer being construed as scummy doesn't make sense to me in context. In addition I think Thespio has been patient with Doughboy's slot overall, given Doughboy's insistence I see scum!Thespio making it Doughboy vs Thespio for sure.

I lean town on Doughboy overall, I think he really believes what he's saying. I just think what he did to the gamestate is misguided and that's what frustrates me here.

[NotNova]

By what metric other than "Thespio is scum 100%"?? You're putting too much faith in your PoE here.

[NotNova]

Screw it. I don't even care. Just lynch Thespio so I can be done with this horrible, horrible day. I'll see if it's saveable on D3.

VOTE: Thespio

[NotNova]

VOTE: Thespio

This is proof enough that Thespio is not scum.
I will willingly lose to scum!Thespio every single time if I have to here.

UNVOTE: Thespio
VOTE: crusty

[NotNova]

Numbers or crusty barring CCs. I'm not lynching town here.

[NotNova]

notnova you're beginning to make me a little paranoid that you might be scum with thespio

If you're not paranoid about the guy who made 6/7ths of his overall content in 48 hours about one guy, then you shouldn't be paranoid about me. I tested, he voted himself, scum has no incentive to do this unless we theatred it. I can tell you I don't play emotionally like this as scum all I want, it's up to you in the end.

Ask if you've got something to ask, otherwise tell me which of Numbers or crusty you prefer.

[NotNova]

this dayphase is nearly as bad as the last one tbh

Worse. I wasn't nearly as frustrated yesterday.

[NotNova]

VOTE: Thespio

This is proof enough that Thespio is not scum.

I will willingly lose to scum!Thespio every single time if I have to here.

UNVOTE: Thespio
VOTE: crusty

like this feels kinda extreme to me idk

i'll vote if i have to to make sure a lynch happens but it's under duress and objection

Yes, it's extreme. If I was thinking completely straight I wouldn't have said it. I believe Thespio getting lynched today is bullshit, sue me, I refuse to lynch obvtown off of a tunnelcase.

[NotNova]

Scum!Thespio goes inactive for a NL or scramble with some shitty excuse or goes super ham on Doughboy. He never willingly offs himself. I refuse to believe that. Ockham's Razor demands it. It's far too convoluted and relies on too many presuppositions about town in this game. If Thespio is scum he's the most genius bastard I've ever played with and I'll take the L every. single. time.

[NotNova]

i mean i don't think he's scum here either but a lynch needs to happen today and there's only 4 active players rn.

with the way the votes are +doughboy only voting for me and thespio, the only lynches that happen today are overkill and thespio (barring other players showing up)

and i'd prefer thespio > no lynch > overkill in that order although i want none of those

What you're saying makes rational sense.

What I'm saying is Thespio flipping green with me voting him would make me flip a fuse.

Doughboy needs to peek out of his tunnel and vote someone else. If the scumteam is literally skitter/Thespio the town!Doughboy optimal play is STILL to lynch one of the nullreads if you can't get the Thespio lynch.

Two 100% scumreads only work if there are two mechanically scum people. This is not the case.

[NotNova]

Wait 0verki11 this is extremely important: did you get "did not visit anyone" or "no result"?

[NotNova]

Doughboy needs to peek out of his tunnel and vote someone else.

No. The inactives need to show up and do something. I don’t need to vote somebody I’m town reading. That’s playing against my win condition

You and I apparently have extremely different views on what "townread" means.

I'm townreading Thespio.
You're not scumreading anyone but Thespio and skitter.

Huge difference.

[NotNova]

I give up. Wake me up when this nightmare ends.

[NotNova]

Reads:

Townread: Thespio
Townlean: skitter
Null: Numbers, Doughboy
Scumread: crusty/overki11

Spoiler: Thespio

I'm going to agree on the consensus regarding Thespio. He's been asking a lot of the right questions at the right time - casting a wide net when questioning other players and town-incentivized interactions with inactive/difficult-to-read slots makes for a solid townread from me.

Overall "town-curiosity" is the key here IMO, it's hard to properly fake. That, or I'm really underestimating Thespio's scumgame - I did have a bit of pause when he made his early townread on me, but in hindsight I don't think it fits a scum narrative in his overall play.
Either way, with the info I have now, there's never a world where I want to see him flipped today.

Spoiler: skitter

I was really on the rocks when it came to this slot - a lot of her predictions came off as TMI + positioning for D2 after an obvious (from scum-perspective) mislynch. Granted, she's been riding that wave for much of D2 as well, but there's one key post in particular that stands out to me: #176 is a very logical readslist from town!skitter and the way she acknowledged she misinterpreted our initial interactions leads me to believe I was probably wrong on D1. FMPOV scum!skitter could have been pushing the scum!me narrative much, much harder with a solid trajectory set up on D1 - IDT there's any reason to be very cautious there.

The only reason I'm not full-townreading here is that I still think there's a bit of artificiality/scum-incentive from our D1 interactions, but I'm willing to acknowledge it was most likely TvT on our part.

Spoiler: Doughboy

The simplest way to describe Doughboy's play is - lazy. The only question is if it's lazy town or lazy scum.

Doughboy has declined to take advantage of pretty much anything - when questioned, he's pretty much explicitly stated his lack of agenda.
The only thing that stands out as potentially scum-motivated is the mislynch, but Doughboy has been so straightforward on the matter it's almost refuge in audacity if he's scum here.

Overall it's a bit of a "burden of proficiency" matter - I expect Doughboy to know that this doesn't make him look very towny and the fact that he seems to not care very much makes me lean lazy-town on the matter, even if it's WIFOMy.

This is not to be read as an excuse, so feel free to pick up your slack soon.

Spoiler: NotAJumbleOfNumbers

Numbers's contributions have been very mediocre so far - the thought process is pretty vague here. The only thing I'm buying is the "correction as first instinct" excuse, it's so obviously hilariously transparent as a scum-move that I can't see it coming from newb-scum, and frankly, it'd probably be my first thought when I first started playing.

Spoiler: starrydash/crusty

It's inherently a surface-level scumread due to lack of content but the fact that starry used the phrase "reaction test" implies at least some level of understanding of online mafia, as I don't think this is a commonly used piece of mafia vocabulary IRL. Couple this with two seperate warnings about NOT HAMMERING WITHOUT INTENT and I'm willing to believe that starry knew exactly what they were doing.

The subsequent silence was truly deafening - I think this is almost certainly +rand scum.
Crusty's sheep is a pretty weak excuse for a vote in my eyes, so nothing to redeem the slot there.

Spoiler: overki11

Now for the fun one... I'm going to start off by saying that "defensiveness" is a crappy scumtell. What I think isn't is paranoia.
Overki11 has tried to justify his non-scumminess at several points without absolutely any provocation - I think this is indicative of an overawareness that isn't likely to come from town. This preoccupation with defending oneself at the expense of progressing any tangible reads definitely looks very scummy when taken holistically.

This is pretty much what makes Doughboy different from overki11: Doughboy doesn't seem to give a crap, overki11 jumps at shadows so nothing they did would be interpreted as scummy. I think this supports a scum-mindset from overki11.

VOTE: overki11

It's a little late, but barring what I said above about you and 0verki11 this is how I feel about the slots. Any comments, Doughboy? I'm interested in starry/crusty's slot in particular.

[NotNova]

Thespio makes a really good case against 0verki11 actually. Can I vote for him?

This is a post you acknowledged as problematic as well, since there essentially WAS no solid case by Thespio at that point.

[NotNova]

Even if we take that quickhammers are NAI (though I still think they're anti-town), what specifically worries me is that it was made at a time when I was starting to doubt if Yyotta was just policy or actual scum, that it was done after two seperate warnings about not quickhammering and that it was followed by drastic inactivity by both starry and crusty. I think the combination lends considerable scum equity to the slot.

In principle I think there should be at least one scum in numbers/crusty, we've all been far too loud in our play for me to find anyone active scummier.

[NotNova]

that's the third vote btw, the l-1 vote

i *strongly* do not believe that we're ready for the day to end

nobody should be hammering here before giving intent and giving overkill a chance to claim

VOTE: crusty

Cool, claiming Tracker

Do you hard claim?

This post is actually very interesting because to me it signals a potential CC — which, if it came, idk which one I'd hammer. They were both in my SRs for a reason.

If they did a timely CC this game would have gone A LOT differently...

[NotNova]

Crusty at L-1 btw.

[NotNova]

Talk to me 0verki11, who's the scum?

[NotNova]

Morning. I'll hammer before deadline if necessary.

[NotNova]

Hopefully we get to see a claim from Numbers though.

[NotNova]

Intent to hammer Numbers in an hour.

[NotNova]

VOTE: NotAJumbleOfNumbers

[NotNova]

Doughboy is still alive?

I wanna see if there are any CCs; if not, Tracker target is confirmed true. No visit is inno, PoE as it stands is me/Thespio/crusty.

[NotNova]

BTW Doughboy, who did you target?

[NotNova]

Just as a reminder, @YellowSnow, you should explicitly claim your role when you are active. If you have any Night results, claim those also.

[NotNova]

Just as a reminder, @YellowSnow, you should explicitly claim your role when you are active. If you have any Night results, claim those also.

How do you feel about the living doctor? and how do you read me/crusty?

I'll tell you how I feel about it soon, can't rn.

I think I lynch crusty here no matter what but let's wait for Overkill and Yellow first.

[NotNova]

VOTE: Yellow

[NotNova]

Lunch 0verki11 if it flips green obviously.

But I seriously doubt it will

[NotNova]

I think mods usually get replacements for such long V/LA — I have high hopes. Town basically won anyway, at the very least the game doesn't get abandoned.

[NotNova]

Too bad it had to be the replace-outs, it was just too easy of a solve, y'know? Like reading a mystery novel and it's the very first suspect immediately.

Still, I feel good about this game. Getting out of the TvT with skitter (as opposed to my first town game) and recognizing Thespio as hardtown at the end of D2 all contributed a fair bit.

I'll comment more if I think of anything. Feel free to give me any feedback! Especially curious about skitter for IC feedback and Thespio for town!NN vs scum!NN. (And yes, I will use the info for nefarious purposes )

[NotNova]

I was really secretly hoping it was scum!Thespio.

I'd be incredibly salty but boy would that be incredible lmfao

[NotNova]

Oh, and thanks for modding AG! The amphibians were real cute

[NotNova]

Got any comments on the push vs Thespio, Doughboy? It was a real hair-puller at the time!

[NotNova]

I think you just got tunneled way too fast and your emotions just kicked in afterwards. Thor gave me a good rule of thumb way back when — "if everything someone does seems scummy to me, I'm probably being daft and need to calm down."

Still, it was kinda townspewy because of how all-in you went on it. I'd never see scum pushing a 100% townread player like that — or maybe my mind is just too feeble to comprehend such a tactic

[NotNova]

I need to learn to stop tunneling.
To be fair I’m going through a lot irl. I talked about it in my other game that just ended. Life sucks

I just found it, that really sucks man, my condolences :/

Stay strong, I'm sure it's just a rough patch.

[NotNova]

I'll comment more if I think of anything. Feel free to give me any feedback! Especially curious about skitter for IC feedback and Thespio for town!NN vs scum!NN. (And yes, I will use the info for nefarious purposes )

tbh most of my perception of this game is colored by the yycotta lynch and the thespio v doughboy scenario

i still think that you pounced a little too eagerly on yycotta (like i agree that she needed to be lynched at some point before lylo) but the way you hopped on felt a little scummy

you being willing to engage with me about it and explain your thought process helped a lot tho with reading your alignment because i could tell you were really thinking about the game and i could understand how you were approaching it - i think that being able to explain what you're thinking and why is a super important tool for a townie and i thought you did a great job there

the other thing that i thought was really townie from you is that you made yourself availible/around at the end of day2 when we were struggling to figure out who to lynch and wer wondering if we even had enough votes to make a lynch happen - if you were scum there, you totally could have lurked for like a day and forced me/doughboy/thespio to choose a suboptimal lynch, especially if doughboy hadn't changed his mind

overnight i was thinking that i wanted to lynch crusy > you > thespio > overkill in that order

you were kinda low on my lynchlist not because i thought you were very scummy, but rather because overkill was effectively conftown and thespio i was just townreading that much harder than you (mostly cuz the way he approached yycotta was insanely obvtown imo)

i think those are my major thoughts, but if you have something in partiuclar you want me to talk about lmk

TBH Yyotta was a real wildcard, I really don't feel too bad about that lynch as policy still. I think claiming scum is probably up there in policy justification and playing as they were would really disrupt the flow in your average 9p game.

Thanks for the commentary, I'll keep it in mind going forward

[NotNova]

Thinking about it I was going for a more aggressive style on D1, that's probably what you were picking up on.

At least we settled it by D2, I think a month ago I would have pushed it to death, so at the very least it's progress!

[NotNova]

if most people disagree with you it might be a sign that you're wrong or should reconsider

Usually true but the other game that just finished I was right even though everyone disagreed. Hell a townie faked an inno he disagreed so much lol.

I’ll just stop pushing hard. Drop a vote and move on

Probably a middle way there but I'll let the more experienced players do the talking

[NotNova]

Yeah honestly part of why I thought Numbers was null instead of scummy was that it was really... mindboggling? Like, correcting your partner out in the open like that? It's almost TOO scummy.

[NotNova]

TBH Thespio you did a really good job IMO, I'm seeing a big improvement over our last game, you spewed alignment terrifically in this game.

Self-voting on D2 was the most shining town move I've seen in my life

[NotNova]

I'll probably be joining your mini since I'm officially "too old" to be a Newbie now, by the by!

[NotNova]

TBH Thespio you did a really good job IMO, I'm seeing a big improvement over our last game, you spewed alignment terrifically in this game.

Self-voting on D2 was the most shining town move I've seen in my life

I played here a few years back, then I ran them off site, then I got a new job, was trying to find a way to pass time and remembered this site, was a good warm up! I think town accepting death is a plain way to show alignment, but since we needed a lynch and doughboy wouldn’t leave me be I was willing to dip.

As usual it's about context. Self-voting as any alignment is 99% of the time a garbage move — but you recognized odd > even as far as town chances go and offered yourself up for grabs which is no scum's instinct.

Would be a pretty brave gambit from scum though, but I'll bet anything the risk/reward ratio on that skews heavily risk in that situation