Newbie 1915: Africa [Game Over!]

[MaryJoLisa]

Continuing on the game with my now corrected user account MaryJoLisa (without the number 2)

Thank you Mith for fixing my account.

[MaryJoLisa]

and I wanted to see if Salami actually SR me in 121 when he said I was trying to pocket MaryJo

We're not BFF's yet.

[MaryJoLisa]

That said, this post and #297 are making me doubt my read on you.
I just can't see how someone with a townie mentality makes a slip like #191?

It's a newbie game and I am a newbie. I made an error and I acknowledged the error. It's my first game here.

[MaryJoLisa]

I promised justification on my vote toward Skitter, so here it is:

Skitter is our ic and as such, it’s her responsibility to keep the game moving and answer questions. She’s done a good job of that, but I don’t see her actually doing any scum hunting herself. She’s covered a little for Spam and she’s covered a little for Salami. I haven’t noticed her covering for me. I’m a newbie and there’s a 7/9 chance I’m town just like the rest of us. Salami and Spam can’t both be scum if she’s also scum, but I see a difference in the way she handles us. She's perhaps overly critical of Elements when TTTT and I were both picking up on the same thing from Spam. Maybe that’s just because I’m coming at it from within my own headspace, but I see a difference in the way she's handling us.

Skitter is not actually offering defenses and doing any scum hunting. She’s turning the tables and asking questions back to various accusers regardless of where their fingers are pointed. She defended Salami and Spam, possibly distancing herself from being seen as jumping on town wagons and her criticism of Elements in particular gives her cover if he is her scum partner. I’m not saying he is, btw. I initially took her behavior to be part of her role as ic, but now I think it's a strategy.

Post #55
She should know very well why that reeks of scumminess. It was beyond LAMIST and Spam was rightly called to account for his actions. In this post, I dismissed her actions as being ic. I presumed that she was trying to prod us into thinking things through, but I read the IC guide on the wiki page and it instructs ic’s to be present and helpful (which she has been), but it says not to keep kid gloves on. I'm now operating with the expectation that her kid-gloves have been off from the beginning.

Post #73
The push was definitely not bad and it was not based on Spam’s choice of username. The push was based entirely on his behavior in the game. I’m not sure how she could have missed this, but we can see from post 55 to 73 that she has read it and understood our protests. Why the cover for Spam?

Post #101 Now she's acknowledging that Spam’s post “god-awful”, just not in a scummy way. Well what is it exactly then? It feels like she's prodding us to think things out but she's an experienced player in the game so if she's town, a little direction might have been helpful.

As I get to posts #251 and #252 , it’s becoming increasingly clear to me that Skitter’s entire strategy seems to be making us second guess ourselves rather than put forth an earnest effort of scum-hunting.

[MaryJoLisa]

Salami and Dick.

Really should have made my account name Fish Tacos

[MaryJoLisa]

Spoiler for my later detailed thoughts: it's because they're probably scumbuddies.

You spoiled my big reveal. We are now bitter enemies.

[MaryJoLisa]

i feel like there's sometihng else bothering about this quote that i'm going to try to figure out when i'm less tired

also this push is based on like pages 1-6 and i'm not sure why none of this was brought up before tbh

It can totally wait. We have like 3 more months until this day phase is over. :: sighs ::

[MaryJoLisa]

It won't be happening, and I'm currently feeling more inspired about cybnumber's line of thinking about SPAM. I've made similar mistakes as SPAM in my first game. When you're coming in with a fresh pair of eyes and absolutely no preparation on what moves people might take, you look to others to see what they're thinking and see if you can justify that line of reasoning. That's why I appear to be fence sitting, it's because I'm announcing my train of thought as I'm formulating it.

If SPAM is legit new, then his inability to formulate his own reads may just be because he doesn't know what to look for yet and he's trying to learn from others to see what they see.

Today I'll be considering the possibility that SPAM is being directed behind the scenes to ham it up with that newbie act and I'll reevaluate his actions with that in mind.

[MaryJoLisa]

I'm not trying to ignore you and i'm sorry if it's coming across that way. You're asking quite a few questions and it will take time for me to reply. I have other obligations and I prioritized putting my read out on you yesterday. I'm trying to keep current on the conversation so I can reply later.

[MaryJoLisa]

Do I get a notification when someone has @'ed me? (real question. I don't see a notification)

I'll respond to your questions tonight.

[MaryJoLisa]

I think you're doing just fine, Spam. Don't take any criticism personally and by your next game, you'll have some strategies in place to do some proper scum hunting. For now focus on learning and do your best to contribute what you think you see and try your best to justify why you think it.

It's okay to be wrong, too. You'll learn from your mistakes.

[MaryJoLisa]

lol

[MaryJoLisa]

I'm sorry, Skitter. I'm typing it up but I've got some RL stuff on my plate that I'm dealing with. I want to answer your questions thoroughly so there's less room for ambiguity. I'll have it posted soon.

[MaryJoLisa]

Questions asked in post 354

"i don't understand how you can argue both of these at the same time you realize that quite a lot of your push on me isn't actually based on me doing anything scummy, right?"

I can argue multiple perspectives because I’m aware that I don’t have all the pieces to the puzzle. I feel that making statements of assertion could block myself off from exploring alternate scenarios that might better fit the information that I have on hand. I’ve learned in this game that expressing that I can see two sides of the coin puts me at a disadvantage because people see it as being indecisive.

you have:
-> the fact that i'm not really *present* in the game (again, i moved this weekend)

She should know very well why that reeks of scumminess. It was beyond LAMIST and Spam was rightly called to account for his actions. In this post, I dismissed her actions as being ic. I presumed that she was trying to prod us into thinking things through, but I read the IC guide on the wiki page and it instructs ic’s to be present and helpful (which she has been), but it says not to keep kid gloves on. I'm now operating with the expectation that her kid-gloves have been off from the beginning.

If I said elsewhere that you were not present, please let post 330 stand. I acknowledge that you have been present, and I really appreciate the job you’re doing as IC. You’ve been very helpful to me and other newbies here.

-> me at once defending town lynches to avoid being criticized for jumping on townies who you later say might be scumpartners (you can't have both of these at the same time)

I explained above that I can see multiple possible outcomes. For right now, I’m focusing on you and not any scum partners you may or may not have.

-> some stuff about me being ic that i don't understand the relevance of to anything

Your being IC confused me at first. I didn’t fully understand the role and even though you said you’re here to play the game and achieve your wincon, I still imagined that you’d be handling us more delicately here than you would on a different part of the forum. I no longer think that’s the case. I believe that you’re playing to your wincon.

-> apparently my strategy is making people second-guess each other but i don't know either where you think i'm doing that or why you think this is a scum strategy of mine and not a playstyle thing for me to ask a lot of questions

I believe that your posts have not advanced the narrative for town and are largely causing us to second guess ourselves. I haven’t evaluated your posts in any other game to determine if you’re sticking to your usual town or scum self.

I am reading you as scum.

-> that i disagreed with people calling nmsa's entrance scummy (why is a differing of opinion here scummy? if you think it's because i'm his partner what does the first quote in this post mean?)

I do suspect that you’re mafia in this game, but I can see narratives where your scum partner could several different people. The distancing that I perceived early in the game (when Elements jumped on Spam for the LAMIST post) may only have been a display of being pro-town in case we lynched Spam and he came up green.

like i'm at once scummy for defending townies but also criticizing my potential partner elements but i'm potentially defending my partner spam who i've avoided criticizing so that i'm not seen as jumping on town wagons?

Criticizing your potential partner, Elements, makes sense if you’re trying to put a little distance between you and him. If we had lynched Spam and he flipped green, then you can point out how you said the wagon was no good in the first place. As I mentioned in point 1, I am going to back off voicing multiple perspectives because it’s confusing to people. I get that so I’ll stop. I do not view you as scum for this event. I view you as scum because I don’t see you advancing town’s narrative.

i don't know.
it feels more scummy to me rn on balance because i honestly don't think i've ever seen town be *this* cool with a lynch like this; it doens't feel liek a really thought

I’ll lump my answer to this one into the next post.

[MaryJoLisa]

i don't know.
it feels more scummy to me rn on balance because i honestly don't think i've ever seen town be *this* cool with a lynch like this; it doens't feel liek a really thought

are you saying that you think that lynching you soonish and curtailing discussion would put town in the best position going forward?
or am i misunderstanding this? (ie that you think *a* lynch should happen soon, but not one on you?)

i want her to answer this ^^^^ it's relevant to how i think about this

I think I’ve been clear that my position is that *a* lynch will provide town with some new data to uncover so town can evaluate it in light of what conversations have taken place. I’m not playing the game from a survivalist perspective. I’m playing as a member of a team that is trying to work together toward a shared goal. I still win if my team wins even if I get lynched.

I’m playing to my wincon to the best of my ability, not my personal agenda and I’m prepared to put my money where my mouth is. I’m town. I can prove it. If people feel the need to call me on that, when I flip green, remaining town can use my insight (good or bad) to formulate new hypotheses in light of the information gathered from a confirmed town's POV.

townie: smpa, elements, salami, bynumber
nulltown: you
scumlean: bbmolla
idk: maryjo, probably scum
null: dick richards

followup:
what specifically makes you think scum!maryjo over lynchbait?
why haven't you moved your vote out of RVS?

didn't have a strong enough scumread to (i don't vote super much day1 till i get a strong enough scumread really)

her actions aren't really internally consistent and don't make much sense to me as coming from a coherent thought process, as highlighted by the thing i pointed out last night where i'm apparently partners with spam and elements for opposite reasons but also scummy for defending town!spam and town!salami. like holistically it sounds good but it doesn't really make much sense if you actually think about it; like if she thinks i'm scum with elements for criticizing him why did she drop that line when other people brought up the notion that i could be scum with spam and telling him? it doesn't seem to be a thought that's driving her reason for scumreading me, but rather it seems to be soemthing she's using to call me scummy.

ike i don't really get the vibe she actually *believes* most of what she's saying given that when you look at her stances holistically she's being fence-sitty and i don't really see consistent threads/trains of thought underlying most of her posts really

it's possible i'm missing those, and i know people don't like my questions but i use them to figure out the implications of what people have said and to see if what they're saying makes sense together as a whole and if they actually believe what they think

she's been ignoring most of my points/questions for a few irl days now (ie not just the last round of it) so i can't really see that if she's doing it

I realize that you’re repeating these thoughts from your previous post and I recognize that I hadn’t addressed them before this post, but let me reiterate a few points. The inconsistent thinking that you’re picking up on is because I’ve been thinking out loud. I’ve been trying to bounce ideas off people and I see now that this causes confusion. I will answer direct questions if I’ve got enough information to support my answer, but I will otherwise reserve my developing views for when they’re more well formulated or if my neck is on the line.

So I’m going to get off the fence right now. I do feel that you’re playing scum this game and my judgement isn't based on your being ic and it's not based solely on the distancing and cover I've observed.

I don’t see you advancing town’s position and contributing to the scum hunting and I find that your primary objective seems to be distracting us and asking questions to make us second guess ourselves

.

As a side note, regardless of what side you’re on, you’re doing a good job of ic’ing this game and I’m grateful for the direction and help you’ve provided.

(But I still think you rolled scum this game)

[MaryJoLisa]

Sorry for the delay, but delivered as promised.

[MaryJoLisa]

@Elements - your take on skitter v. maryjo?

Most of their interactions seem to end in either an apology for not responding because of IRL stuff, "thanks for help", or "DW i get you have irl stuff". I'm not rlly sure what to make of that.

We are both accusing one another of being murderous liars who stalk innocents in the night. A little courtesy is called for to maintain objectivity. This is, after all, just a game.

[MaryJoLisa]

Okay go after Skitter and Elements when I'm gone.

[MaryJoLisa]

Wait I thought I just saw 4 on me.

[MaryJoLisa]

I was sure I saw 4. Well... marching orders still stand. Skitter and Elements. Especially after that incredibly LAMIST post of his about how and when Mafia communicate during a game. Seriously? No call to do that after jumping on Spam for his LAMIST move in the beginning. Look at their interactions. Look at their defense strategy.

[MaryJoLisa]

Especially after that incredibly LAMIST post of his about how and when Mafia communicate during a game

How else do you want me to go about asking?

By PM to the Mod.

If I was to want to know how mafia communicated in the middle of the period in which they should be communicating, I'd PM the mod with my questio. I would anticipate how asking that here would appear like I'm scum letting an oopsie daisy town-tell slip by accidentally/on purpose.

[MaryJoLisa]

Not too much unless I flip green. Then you will appear like you didn't care which of us got killed so long as you took out a greenie.

[MaryJoLisa]

It's a 10-day day phase!

10 days!

@mod so help me if you pause that deadline, I'll tell everyone in this thread that two of the birds you posted in your so called "African" themed game are European and North American!

[MaryJoLisa]

In hindsight I should have just gone with "Screw Dick" to voice my protest.

[MaryJoLisa]

It's a 10-day day phase!

10 days!

@mod so help me if you pause that deadline, I'll tell everyone in this thread that two of the birds you posted in your so called "African" themed game are European and North American!

...why would you not want time to sort out the replacement’s alignment??

Mostly because I'm antsy. I don't have a good reason other than that I'm ready to get the show on the road. I'm not serious in my conviction against pausing the timer.

When I started this game, I thought the 10-day day phase thing was like a fall-back just in case the game happens to be populated by inactive players. I didn't realize that players would see it as a benefit to actually keep the day phase going for 10 days. I know I could go and look for myself, but do games in other areas go on for this long? How long are night phases in newbie games and games in other parts of the forum?

[MaryJoLisa]

I think I read that too about the 7 days for subsequent day phases. I didn't know the night phase was 48 hours, though.

[MaryJoLisa]

I cannot imagine what they need 48 hours for if they're talking this whole time privately. Boggles my mind.

[MaryJoLisa]

I cannot imagine what they need 48 hours for if they're talking this whole time privately. Boggles my mind.

There can be players in different time zones. Makes it difficult to coordinate if not enough time is given to accommodate that.

I suppose that's a reasonable point. I'm not arguing what's apparently been working for years and years, btw. Not by a long shot. This site seems to be the authority in this kind of game, so they're doing something right. Maybe it'll become more apparent as I play more games.

[MaryJoLisa]

like she's basically saying that scum!her is self-aware enough to not sound scummy, which makes me more critical of posts that seem designed to tick all the boxes to make people think she's doing townie things (ie accepting her lynch, which didn't ever feel *real* to me)

You can always try to get the vote through on me, though. I feel like I keep repeating this to you but you're not acknowledging it. I'm fine with taking one for the team. Then town can evaluate the insight i've posted in light of my flip.

I think I did a made a very nice effort in replying to your questions. Posts 407 and 408 took time and effort and should have demonstrated my good faith in responding to the questions you had up until that point. I'll start working on answers to your new questions tomorrow. Fair warning,

I'm going on V/LA for several days. I won't be offline, I'll just have to condense my posts to a more limited window each day.

[MaryJoLisa]

thx
so if I understand your scum case on me it's:
1. pocketing MaryJo

Is being in your pocket any fun? It might be fun, so I'd like to get that sorted out. Is it fun in there?

[MaryJoLisa]

K thx. Pass.

[MaryJoLisa]

@MaryJ excuse me if you answered this somewhere - What is your mafia experience prior to this game?

3 games before this one. This is my first on this forum. All versions I've played were forum games, not live ones.

[MaryJoLisa]

cby is still town

==

thx
so if I understand your scum case on me it's:
1. pocketing MaryJo

Is being in your pocket any fun? It might be fun, so I'd like to get that sorted out. Is it fun in there?

oh cool, now you're ignoring the posts where i point out you're ignoring me

==

hi urap2, looking forward to playing with you!

==

don't really have anything new to say
vastly prefer maryjo rn over either spam or urap2's slot

But I want to give you thoughtful answers. Quick posts are easy. Sitting down and thinking about a weighty question takes time. I can make a quick, witty reply to TTTT, but you're asking for explanations.

[MaryJoLisa]

again if you could just say something like: i see your post and i'll get to it tomorrow

cuz then i'll at least know that it's on your radar

I did say that yesterday. I've got a word document started and I'm gathering evidence. We have like 1,264 RL days left in this day phase. I'll post it.

[MaryJoLisa]

@MaryJ excuse me if you answered this somewhere - What is your mafia experience prior to this game?

3 games before this one. This is my first on this forum. All versions I've played were forum games, not live ones.

could you talk with players outside of the game thread on those forums?

Sometimes, yes. I stepped into a place with a developed mafia culture. Some games did apparently permit talking outside the game. It's specified in the game OP.

The games I played were no talking outside the game.

[MaryJoLisa]

Ever? I can think of much weirder things. I can't remember what I was replying to, but I had edited the post before submitting it and didn't catch that my thought wasn't following.

[MaryJoLisa]

@MaryJ can you give me a quick tiered read list, please? no explanations required

After having read your thoughts but without having fully processed what you've said:
Town: You
Town: TTTT
Town: cbynumber
Meh/Town: BBmolla
Meh/Town: Elements
Meh/okay-maybe-possibly-not-scum: Skitter
Meh/Scum: NotMySpamAccount
Scum: Salami

[MaryJoLisa]

sweet come join me on salami

Well hold on there, partner. You may have come in here all:

http://www.fanboy.com/wp-content/upload ... ranger.png

But I've still got to process what you've said, and I have a prior obligation to Skitter.

(Okay, I give up. If not with img tags, how do you get pictures to embed in a post?)

[MaryJoLisa]

omg, Skitter. I hate to ask this of you, but I'm getting turned around in my reply to you. Can you please, in a very brief narrative, tell me what it is that you want me to address? I'm looking at your questions and I see replies and replies with quotes and more replies and even more replies with even more quotes and I keep thinking that i've already tried to address your points. In like 3 or 4 sentences can you just say what you want me to answer? I've got all the data in front of me, I just can't figure out what you're asking that I haven't already answered. (sorry!)

[MaryJoLisa]

@MaryJ excuse me if you answered this somewhere - What is your mafia experience prior to this game?

3 games before this one. This is my first on this forum. All versions I've played were forum games, not live ones.

could you talk with players outside of the game thread on those forums?

Sometimes, yes. I stepped into a place with a developed mafia culture. Some games did apparently permit talking outside the game. It's specified in the game OP.

The games I played were no talking outside the game.

Urap, I'd been wondering why you were asking me these questions but I think I found the root of it in post #9. Was that it?

[MaryJoLisa]

I have a question for @Mod and then I'll switch my vote to reflect my reads if her answer is what I think it'll be.

[MaryJoLisa]

omg, Skitter. I hate to ask this of you, but I'm getting turned around in my reply to you. Can you please, in a very brief narrative, tell me what it is that you want me to address? I'm looking at your questions and I see replies and replies with quotes and more replies and even more replies with even more quotes and I keep thinking that i've already tried to address your points. In like 3 or 4 sentences can you just say what you want me to answer? I've got all the data in front of me, I just can't figure out what you're asking that I haven't already answered. (sorry!)

I don’t see you advancing town’s position and contributing to the scum hunting and I find that your primary objective seems to be distracting us and asking questions to make us second guess ourselves.

ok:
for the former, i'm not sure why you're assuming my lack of 'advancing town's position' or scumhunting is a function of my alignment and not, say, of being busy irl

for the latter: where do you see that my primary objective is to distract people or make people second-guess themselves? like what have i specifically done that makes you think i am purposefully doing this?

^^^^ this

I think I've answered these questions already, but I'm not digging through the posts to demonstrate that. Hopefully, this will address your questions.

I would still think that if you’re town, you’d be looking at various possibilities. I think you’d be advancing town’s objective but you’re instead asking questions that are making us second guess ourselves. Other active posters are throwing out ideas and trying to construct a narrative. You’re not really participating in that. I feel like you’re waving your hand with a shiny object to distract people from what’s really going on. I don’t know what’s going on, but I do not feel that you’re contributing to solving the mystery.

Your absence at the start of the game was very suspicious for me because I didn’t fully realize how long these day phases were. It was odd to me that you’d start a game that you’re ic’ing in that you'd basically miss what I expected would be the first two day phases. Possibly three. I see now that the day phases are forever and a day, so your V/LA is explained to my satisfaction.

Now you’re zeroed in on me and I don’t see you this focused anywhere else. You say I’m sitting on fences and that I lack conviction and internal consistency, but that’s because I’m trying to blindly put pieces together that and I really don’t know where the pieces fit. You don’t seem like you’re blind at all. You are very strong in your convictions and that only makes good sense to me if you’re scum. The only other explanation would be that your town with a penchant for tunnel vision. Both reasons are good for voting for you. We either take out the scum, or we take out the town who, in my opinion, could possibly tunnel the wrong people down the road.

If there is a stronger scum case on someone else, I will vote for the strongest scum read and Urap is making a good case for Salami right now.

[MaryJoLisa]

If scum, Urap's pocket is probably cleaner, too. Less lint and whatever else you've got going on in there.

Do either of you have a preferred pronoun? Otherwise, I may accidentally assign one to you.

[MaryJoLisa]

@MJ Please explain to me why my case on Salami is good.

Possible starting points:
Why is Salami's opening post awkward?
Why are Salami's read lists bad?

And second,

Are there any parts of Salami's play that you find scummy independent of my read?

Yes, but you more or less articulated what I was thinking but couldn’t quite explain myself.

In post # 121 viewtopic.php?p=10697748#p10697748 (still need to figure out how to easily do hyperlinks), Salami comes in making strong assertions but he was not hunting. He just stated flatly who is and isn’t scum and I think he thought his confidence alone would sway us. Why would I accept these assertions with his stated level of experience?

This is as far as I’ve gotten in my reply to you, but if you were looking for quick, there it is.

[MaryJoLisa]

Yeah, i'm still not getting it right. I'll figure it out eventually.

[MaryJoLisa]

650

[MaryJoLisa]

I dunno, TTTT. Urap has vacuumed out his pocket for me and made sure there was a chilled bottle of chardonnay in there.

You might've been pocket-blocked by Urap.

[MaryJoLisa]

There will be, but I have dinner and family obligations for the rest of the evening. Got some people in from out of town. That's why I'm V/LA.

[MaryJoLisa]

Okay, so the chardonnay was spectacular. Muchas gracias. Are we shifting this wagon over to Salami then?

[MaryJoLisa]

that is exactly the kind of thing I would say! I actually had the speech all prepared to give for Skitter just in case she would flip green.

I like you, Urap.

[MaryJoLisa]

Oh, damn it. I just tried to get you fast tracked through the system, Urap, but security has red-flagged you. As much as I like you, security hasn't yet cleared you to direct my vote. Apparently you "still could be Skitter's lost scum partner" if she's actually scum. Bah. Best to let the system do its thing then.

[MaryJoLisa]

I welcome the investigation.

[MaryJoLisa]

@MJL do you see why long day phases is good for town yet?

No, sorry. I see clearly that we're getting more information, but whether it's good information or not remains to be seen. We need some evidence to get things moving along.

[MaryJoLisa]

MaryJoLisa: Probably scum. Not enough content, just trying to defend herself.

I've contributed plenty of content. I found this handy tool at the bottom right of the screen. I have 118 points and I've been actively pushing for a Skitter lynch and providing reasoning for my thought process. Start with Post 330 and read on from there. If I've defended myself, it's probably more of an explanation as to what I'm thinking rather than an actual defense because I'm of the position that a lynch *any lynch* will provide town with the necessary context to move forward.

[MaryJoLisa]

Like, am I just supposed to ignore all of her content in favour of a votecount with no confirmed flips?

That's fair, and I get what you're saying about focusing on Maryj

i'll be honest I'll need help from another on this one.

the walls are a personality thing, right? She said so in this thread and it's super easy to confirm. she makes catchup walls asking tons of questions

she has engaged others, including myself. The difference seems to be that she a) scum reads mj and b) has had to work to get mj to answer questions which has probably increased the ratio of mj to non mj comments a bit

my read of the situation is based on the vote count and the feel/flow of the game >> the above

I believe I have been answering her questions. I think she just doesn't like or accept the answers I provide. But I have been answering, and I have been providing what I think are lengthy responses that do actually address the questions she's asking.

Part of me thinks she's asking over and over to give the illusion that i'm not answering.

[MaryJoLisa]

Wait, we're at the point of voting Salami out? I didn't piece that together. @Mod, is there an updated vote count for us?

[MaryJoLisa]

So we've got 4 on Salami, we need 5. I'm the hold out, then correct? And if I change my vote, I'm supposed to state my intent to hammer?

Statement of intent to hammer:

I'm planning on pounding the Salami.

[MaryJoLisa]

UNVOTE: Skitter

[MaryJoLisa]

At what point is it appropriate to cast my vote? How much hammer notification is customary?

[MaryJoLisa]

a) not sure why you're willing to move your vote off of me and onto salami here; feels like you're looking for wagons to join
b) why are you willing to listen to urap in 665 but take that back in 668?
c) is there a particular reason why urap could be my scum-buddy? ie is there something that specifically makes you think urap/skitter or are you just saying that it's theoretically possible he's my partner?

(i'd like these to be ansered but given previous interactions i don't particularly expect that to happen; i'm still noting my thoughts on these posts tho)

I am most definitely looking for a wagon to join, but the reasons are not what I think you're expecting.

There is no particular reason why Urap could be your scum buddy other than that Urap had a 22% chance of having drawn a scum card just like the rest of us. From my POV, of course, that's a 25% chance, but either way, because it is a non-zero value it should be considered.

Salami was on my radar anyway and voting him ends the day phase. Whether I get NK'ed, investigated, or whatever during the night phase, the game gets to move forward with useful evidence.

[MaryJoLisa]

If you sincerely think the vote belongs on me, then you should vote for me.

I mean, yeah, it would be kind of weird if you're actually scum buddies and you both move the wagon on a greenie who's clearly getting under Skitter's skin, but I guess you'll cross that bridge when you get there. If you're scum buddies, that is.

I've agreed to hold off on my vote for now to give Salami a chance to respond, so you've got some time to work with if you need it.

[MaryJoLisa]

If you sincerely think the vote belongs on me, then you should vote for me.

I mean, yeah, it would be kind of weird if you're actually scum buddies and you both move the wagon on a greenie who's clearly getting under Skitter's skin, but I guess you'll cross that bridge when you get there. If you're scum buddies, that is.

I've agreed to hold off on my vote for now to give Salami a chance to respond, so you've got some time to work with if you need it.

MaryJo you wouldn't happen to be scumbuddies with Salami would you?

I am not.

[MaryJoLisa]

I have never gotten to this point in the game before, so I feel comfortable posing this as a newbie question to all:

I don't see an actual rule on when it is permissible in the game to legally hammer a vote home. This is what i've found on the wiki. So other than courtesy, what is stopping me from hamming that vote home on Salami?

A player "at L-1", or "lynch minus 1" is one vote short of the majority votes needed to lynch and end the Day, and can be lynched with a single hammer vote.

"L-1"

is the most commonly used variation of the "L-#" notation, and is usually seen in votecounts to warn players of this status. The # may be replaced with any other number to signify that it will take that many more votes to lynch a player.

It is generally encouraged not to put a player at L-1 unless you are certain that they are scum, and that you have accomplished everything necessary for the Day. Doing so gives scum and impulsive town players a chance to quickhammer, resulting in no chance for a player to claim or not providing the chance to debate a claim, cutting off discussion for the Day, and so on.

Hammer:

A hammer is a vote on someone which results in the majority needed to lynch them. Once the hammer vote is placed, the game moves into Twilight until the mod posts the death scene. The player who has been hammered is considered beyond salvation as of the moment the hammering vote has been placed; barring the influence of a role like a Governor nothing will stop them from getting lynched. Many mods allow hammered players to post in Twilight but some do not.

Some players may use the threat of a hammer vote as a way to gambit in hopes of pulling votes off of them with a last second with "Oh well, go town." or "I wasn't lying, I really was the doctor."

[MaryJoLisa]

Thank you, Skitter.

Okay, so douchy, but not not illegal. Got it.

[MaryJoLisa]

Yes and the phases would vary between 12-48 hours IIRC so we were getting feedback pretty fast.

[MaryJoLisa]

Yeah, what we've got going on right now is counter productive.

[MaryJoLisa]

So what you're saying, @Mod, is that now would be like a super douchy time to hammer that vote in on Salami.

[MaryJoLisa]

@mod and/or @Skitter (as ic), I can cast this now according to game play custom?

[MaryJoLisa]

thx.

[MaryJoLisa]

I was gonna do it, I just didn't want to breach the cultural norms and catch flak for it.

[MaryJoLisa]

No, that's not my expectation. He certainly could. Both with his chance of rolling and some of his behaviors, I'd consider the possibility to be higher than others (how to quantify that exactly, I'm not sure).

I wouldn't be surprised either way, but I favor green.

[MaryJoLisa]

So in we're in twilight now, right?

[MaryJoLisa]

I wouldn't be surprised either way, but I favor green.

Then why are you ok with a hammer?

I wanted to end the day phase. Looked toward the end there it was going to be me or Salami because urap considered launching the wagon back o me, and I'm 100% sure that I'm green. If it's between me and Salami, might as well be Salami. At least then, from my POV, we had a chance of hitting scum.

[MaryJoLisa]

And why werent you willing to vote him yourself?
Kinda felt like you were itching to do so but didnt becuase you didn't want to look bad, but that you're happy someone else did it for you

What do you mean? As ic, you literally told me that it's considered to be a dick move.

[MaryJoLisa]

I think TTTT has some experience here to understand the culture better than I do. I was following the guidance of the ic who said to hold off. You said that the beginning of this game that as ic, you're obligated to be honest.

[MaryJoLisa]

Post number 7

[MaryJoLisa]

@MJ don't feel bad. You'll likely never be tricked like this again ;P

I wasn't tricked. I was told by the ic not to do it. I trusted the ic's word because I believed that she was supposed to give me honest answers to help newbies out and I'm trying to play a clean game by the rules and the culture that exists on this forum.

[MaryJoLisa]

VOTE: Salami

[MaryJoLisa]

I have never gotten to this point in the game before, so I feel comfortable posing this as a newbie question to all:

I don't see an actual rule on when it is permissible in the game to legally hammer a vote home. This is what i've found on the wiki. So other than courtesy, what is stopping me from hamming that vote home on Salami?

A player "at L-1", or "lynch minus 1" is one vote short of the majority votes needed to lynch and end the Day, and can be lynched with a single hammer vote.

"L-1"

is the most commonly used variation of the "L-#" notation, and is usually seen in votecounts to warn players of this status. The # may be replaced with any other number to signify that it will take that many more votes to lynch a player.

It is generally encouraged not to put a player at L-1 unless you are certain that they are scum, and that you have accomplished everything necessary for the Day. Doing so gives scum and impulsive town players a chance to quickhammer, resulting in no chance for a player to claim or not providing the chance to debate a claim, cutting off discussion for the Day, and so on.

Hammer:

A hammer is a vote on someone which results in the majority needed to lynch them. Once the hammer vote is placed, the game moves into Twilight until the mod posts the death scene. The player who has been hammered is considered beyond salvation as of the moment the hammering vote has been placed; barring the influence of a role like a Governor nothing will stop them from getting lynched. Many mods allow hammered players to post in Twilight but some do not.

Some players may use the threat of a hammer vote as a way to gambit in hopes of pulling votes off of them with a last second with "Oh well, go town." or "I wasn't lying, I really was the doctor."

the 'protocol' so to speak for a hammer is:
-> a wagon gets to l-1
-> someone gives intent to hammer

-> the person getting wagoned claims
-> we evaluate the claim and determine whether or not it's credible or a reason to not lynch them

hammering without a claim is a big no-no

it happens sometimes anyways, especially if it's super close to deadline; there's more leeway for a quickhammer or a hammer without a claim if it's literally minutes before deadline

there's nothing mechanically stopping you from hammering rn

but i would strongly advise you not to do so before we get a claim

people who lolhammer can

expect to get *a lot* of flak the next day

; i personally consider it to be incredibly scummy (for a few players nai because they do it all the time, but i wish they wouldn't)

Bold mine.

[MaryJoLisa]

Thank you, @Mod.

[MaryJoLisa]

Yes!! African penguins! <3

[MaryJoLisa]

I have never gotten to this point in the game before, so I feel comfortable posing this as a newbie question to all:

I don't see an actual rule on when it is permissible in the game to legally hammer a vote home. This is what i've found on the wiki. So other than courtesy, what is stopping me from hamming that vote home on Salami?

A player "at L-1", or "lynch minus 1" is one vote short of the majority votes needed to lynch and end the Day, and can be lynched with a single hammer vote.

"L-1"

is the most commonly used variation of the "L-#" notation, and is usually seen in votecounts to warn players of this status. The # may be replaced with any other number to signify that it will take that many more votes to lynch a player.

It is generally encouraged not to put a player at L-1 unless you are certain that they are scum, and that you have accomplished everything necessary for the Day. Doing so gives scum and impulsive town players a chance to quickhammer, resulting in no chance for a player to claim or not providing the chance to debate a claim, cutting off discussion for the Day, and so on.

Hammer:

A hammer is a vote on someone which results in the majority needed to lynch them. Once the hammer vote is placed, the game moves into Twilight until the mod posts the death scene. The player who has been hammered is considered beyond salvation as of the moment the hammering vote has been placed; barring the influence of a role like a Governor nothing will stop them from getting lynched. Many mods allow hammered players to post in Twilight but some do not.

Some players may use the threat of a hammer vote as a way to gambit in hopes of pulling votes off of them with a last second with "Oh well, go town." or "I wasn't lying, I really was the doctor."

the 'protocol' so to speak for a hammer is:
-> a wagon gets to l-1
-> someone gives intent to hammer

-> the person getting wagoned claims
-> we evaluate the claim and determine whether or not it's credible or a reason to not lynch them

hammering without a claim is a big no-no

it happens sometimes anyways, especially if it's super close to deadline; there's more leeway for a quickhammer or a hammer without a claim if it's literally minutes before deadline

there's nothing mechanically stopping you from hammering rn

but i would strongly advise you not to do so before we get a claim

people who lolhammer can

expect to get *a lot* of flak the next day

; i personally consider it to be incredibly scummy (for a few players nai because they do it all the time, but i wish they wouldn't)

Bold mine.

I'm confused. Are you trying to excuse your own hammer without this stuff? Or apologize? or something else? I can't tell what you're trying to say, since you ignored all of this advice.

Not really. Since you say you're at L-1 and that jives with my tally, I'm going to shoot the Mod a quick PM to check what the actual rules are about this then I'll see about casting my vote for you.

[MaryJoLisa]

Actually that quote was not intended to be in that post. It is immaterial to my position about voting for you. I was just checking what I was told before (must have hit the quote button by accident?). I'm going to confirm my understanding with the mod.

[MaryJoLisa]

I asked the mod: "Is there an actual rule preventing me from hammering a vote in on this player, Spam? I am not so concerned with supposed protocol as I am with the actual rules since my fellow players saw fit to let me hammer a vote in the other day without giving that player the proper notice they claimed was socially appropriate for this forum."

Mod has confirmed that there is no rule against doing this.

If giving notice before hammering a player had been an actual thing, when I searched for the keywords hammer or hammering on the wiki, I would have easily found information on that. I didn't, but it was in my head somewhere, so I thought I'd ask here, to everyone. Experienced players led me to think that there is indeed a social culture of not quick hammering a vote, but then led me in opposite direction and allowed me to make this huge voting faux paux. It turned out in town's benefit, but from that interaction I can conclude that my fellow players either overemphasized the importance of this intent to hammer culture, or made it up outright.

I'm voting for Spam because I think he's scummy.

VOTE: NotMySpamAccount

[MaryJoLisa]

Thank you for your time in moderating the game, northsidegal. You're a good moderator keeping on point with those vote counts. It was a good theme, too. Also thank you to Skitter for being our ic and helping me understand some of the terms and such.

[MaryJoLisa]

Thanks for stepping in, urap. Your comments solidified a lot of my reasoning and brought clarity where I wasn't able to see properly.

[MaryJoLisa]

thanks nsg!
i, uh, did not do a very good job at using the ic pt, so i guess if anyone wants me to give feedback or whatever lmk

@maryjo sorry for getting tunneled, i was lowkey aware that that was a thing i might be doing but i kinda ignored it until like today irl when the new day started, so sorry about that

i guess i do still want to know if you think i was purposefully misleading you because i was not, i answered the l-1/intent/claim/hammer thing as truthfully and as accurately as i know how to; i very very very strongly believe that lolhammering is not a good idea and would have pushed for your lynch tomorrow if spam had flipped town;

You answered the question, but then the actions that followed (in general) didn't match the policy that you stated. I decided that I would interpret what I saw, not what you said (none of this "do as I say, not as I do"), and I was prepared to burn the bridge if I messed up.

i belive it's very important to get a claim whenever possible, and that this should be waived only in the event that deadline is like imminently approaching (ie like within hours or mintues)

i guess if you're still confused about this lmk so we can talk about it mroe

You had already tunneled me and there was no shaking you. I deemed that the potential benefits outweighed the risks and I applied the hammer policy that I understood through having watched leadership by example (by experienced players).

Overall, you did a good job, Skitter, and I appreciate your time. I think the lines got blurred there and it was confusing for me, but you were helpful and friendly and explained some terms and stuff that my head was swimming in.

[MaryJoLisa]

Oh hmmmm
I just read the mod thread.

my thoughts: The only people in any game that have any obligation to tell the truth to anybody about anything are the mod and the ic

I am not about to pick apart the exchange. It can be difficult to dismiss what you already know and view information from a uninformed perspective. You don't really know what you don't know until you finally know it.

Had it been a different player on the block, I might not have pulled the trigger. But it was Spam, and Spam had rolled scum this game and since it became clear to me (from my perspective and with my knowledge base) that we were taking off the gloves, I followed suit.

[MaryJoLisa]

If there are nuances to this policy that are not documented, then they're meant to be learned through trial and error. This is a newbie game. This is literally the place for me to learn these mistakes so I can get a feel for the culture, rules and policies.

[MaryJoLisa]

very well played town

You must not have read through the thread, then.

Thank you just the same.

[MaryJoLisa]

We simply don't share each other's perspective. That's okay. I still think you're a fine player and your pocket was rather nice while it lasted.