Newbie 1916: Epic Music [Game Over!]
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teacher Jack of All Trades
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teacher Jack of All Trades
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teacher Jack of All Trades
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One IC-ish point -- you should all get Avis - it is a courtesy form of “facial recognition” for posts.
@TemporalLitch, thanks for reminding me of epic; thats good fun for marathon procrastination
And I kinda want to expand on Flippy's question with some self-meta and hunting questions as well
1. What is your experience at Mafia
2. How do you play as town
3. How do you play as scum
4. What do you think gives away a player as scum or town-
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teacher Jack of All Trades
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1. RL years ago; appr 14 forum games in the last year.In post 19, teacher wrote:1. What is your experience at Mafia
2. How do you play as town
3. How do you play as scum
4. What do you think gives away a player as scum or town
2. I effort obv!town (but have a lot less time during the school year)
3. I effort obv!town (see above).
4. Motivations, probabilities, and associations. For each post, I try to ascertain the motive behind it. Does it seem town-motivated or scum-motivated. To be sure, both town and scum have similar objectives, but they arent overlapping. Town is not as afraid of being lynched, because there will be a mislynch at some point; scum knows that their death is 50% of a loss. Town wants to out real analysis to advance the game; scum wants to repeat information that everybody knows so they can appear to be helping without actually doing it. Another key area of difference is in probabilities. Here, I cant say it much better than a strategy article from the Wiki (link). I'll speak more on associations tomorrow if Im still kicking.-
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teacher Jack of All Trades
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teacher Jack of All Trades
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teacher Jack of All Trades
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To steal from loop, memey or slightly effortful (or depends on the day)In post 27, Clemency wrote:showing up?-
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teacher Jack of All Trades
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1 game - Newb 1909. That's my last completed game, played while I was on winter break. He was a good town player as PR there, but someone with more experience suggested that the effort was a slight deviation from the mean of being memey and nullish, so I wanted to structure my expectations according to his response and commitment here.In post 33, roomy wrote:@teacher -- what's your experience been with clem?
Congrats on earning an early town read for yourself, the first out of null either way for me.-
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teacher Jack of All Trades
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Not sure that answers my question. I hadnt been voted yet when you RVSed, so again, why not vote me? Also, I found this odd:In post 32, Emperor flippyNips wrote:In post 26, teacher wrote:@flippy - why skellen over people you had played with/people who had posted?
@clem - which of you is showing up?
I just like to vote people that haven’t been voted yet in my RVS
Last game I played with you, you and the other scum were mostly silent. Plus, there you said you didnt really know how to scumhunt. I'm wondering when you acquired this purported tell (can you show me?), and it also amplifies my question of why you wouldnt vote me -- a player you knows falls into the try-hard category. So sell me on town!flippy when youre off break, otherwise I might think youre cursed to always roll scum in the newbqueueIn post 31, Emperor flippyNips wrote:I think what gives scum away is trying a little too hard.-
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teacher Jack of All Trades
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@37
I do think RVS serves a point, one I will talk about after RVS if you remind me - I dont want to undermine it now by explaining how I use it. In response to your direct question, I dont mind voting people who havent voted as much. But people do tend to vote people they know, as a way of semi-friendly greeting. So I found Flippy's vote in particular odd, in a way I didnt find CatStar's (whose vote was consistent with that rule of thumb). On your general point, several players encourage RVS to become random wagonning stage, so you can get data on how people react under pressure and who joins/pushes against. I dont have views either way.
Also, I only addressed Flip + clem with questions because they are SEs and I wanted to give all newbs time to answer my general experience questions and get acclimated before I start drilling.-
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teacher Jack of All Trades
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Im jumping a bit back in the thread just to capture both questions.In post 44, Skellen wrote:While I am at it and I can't find anything on the wiki about that an IC question: Is pocketing only something done by scum or is it independent from the alignment? To be frank I almost snapvoted Clem for #40 due to past game experience where it was always associated with scum play.
And since we are talking about Clem and RVS and you are familiar with him. What do you think of him keeping himself away from RVS so far? What makes him different from flippy who you criticize for not voting you but someone else while Clem simply doesn't vote?
1. Pocketing as an actual thing can only come from scum. It means to give town (generally leaders/influences) town reads in the hope of receiving the same. But as you noted later in thread, Clem's explicit use of the word in 40 is "just that blatant." Put another way, it is too blatant to be a scumslip, at least from a player as good as Clem. His use of it here is a NAI joke consistent with the personality in his avatar. I took it as a way of sharing a townread on you and me with the board, but not as informative of his own alignment.
2. I wont get AI indicative data on pressuring Clem. He will just joke it off. Flippy I might learn something from. Clem will join wagons when asked to, but tends to withhold his real views until wagons actually start smelling like they might lead to rope.-
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teacher Jack of All Trades
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teacher Jack of All Trades
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I dont disagree with your instincts, but why unvote? Nobody else has removed their RVS and there is absolutely no danger of a lynch. What does it accomplish?
Can you answer my self-meta questions from 19 - I know youve already answered 1 and 4, but Id be interested in 2 and 3 as well.-
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teacher Jack of All Trades
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teacher Jack of All Trades
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teacher Jack of All Trades
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1. It’s not a too scummy to be scum comment. I don’t think it is scummy. (Not town either, just NAI, like most things). As a broader point though, I do have a different take than some on too scummy to be scum. If only scum did scummy things, mafia would be a much easier game to play. Look at what happened to Loop last game for you. In one of my recent games, a town PR lolhammered a known-to-them town as a way to avoid the nk. So sometimes there can be town reasons to appear scummy.In post 55, Skellen wrote:snip due to length but link for context
2. My vote on Clem was an expression of affection. I genuinely like and enjoy playing w him - it’s both funny and he has good reads. Overall, my view on him is akin to his likely view on me: I’m willing to give him space to do his thing, but if his actual views when they are expressed are really discordant or if we have reached Day three without scum blood and he is still alive, I will start to burden of proficiency him.-
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teacher Jack of All Trades
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Beetlejuice - when you say someone’s name in thread and they suddenly appear despite low presence generally. The first one was to me. Both may just be when you are regularly online though.In post 68, TemporalLich wrote:
Beetlejuice answer? That's something I've never heard before.In post 67, teacher wrote:The second beettlejuice answer, combined with the retreat from an expression of earlier copied town-reads especially when Skellen has not regressed in thread presence seems like a good enough reason for me.
VOTE: TemporalLich
I'm taking the L due to the accidental slip, trying to cover it up is pretty much just game throwing.
Taking the L? Accidental slip? I’m confused.-
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teacher Jack of All Trades
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Want me to jump in or to let CatStar speak?In post 85, Skellen wrote:What was your slight suspicion about roomy before?-
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teacher Jack of All Trades
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I disagree. But before I get into that, any reason you havent answered 19?In post 78, Birdy wrote:Roomy didn't do anything before then to warrant a town read-
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teacher Jack of All Trades
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I also disagree. You had regressed for me too, because you earned an early townread then went a bit quiet. Not a big change - weekend low-activity is common - but I had it as well. That is why I was more troubled by the change on Skellen than by the change on you.In post 79, roomy wrote:there's a difference between forgetting a townread and saying that somewhere in between him explicitly getting off my wagon because it was "a town's wagon" and my vote for him (during which I had not made a post) I "regressed to the mean." that part makes little sense to me,-
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teacher Jack of All Trades
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I'll speak on the purpose to my questions once they are answered.In post 80, CatStar wrote:@teacher: what did you learn?-
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teacher Jack of All Trades
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Yea, I wanted to get a better feel for your style. People have different views of meta, but I support its use. I was also surprised to find an IC-day 1 lynch. I skimmed Day 1 for you, and for the cause of that. I did not read the game as a whole.In post 83, Skellen wrote:wait, did you actually read that game?-
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Im actually not ok with leaving it, since there is an off chance this comment could be laying the seed for a later push if need be. What was the core of your question? I understood it to be why vote Clemency. The answer, as given, was to give a funny tip of my hat to him, who had just welcomed me as well. But if Im missing something, I dont mind going back over it.In post 83, Skellen wrote:I feel like you just dodged the core of my question smoothly here when I think about your comment on flippy's vote, but it is kind of a good answer nonetheless. It's probably more a thing that we two have a different mindset in this regard so I am willing to leave it at that with this.-
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teacher Jack of All Trades
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I cut the above to the core of what I wanted to talk about. The progression from 68 to 72 didnt really bother me. On the other hand, the progression in 64, 66, and 68 bothered me quite a bit, particularly 66 to 68. In 66, Lich tries to DEFEND the read change as "regression to the meanIn post 84, Skellen wrote:
However he still has to explain how his reads changed. . . . .[snip]In post 78, Birdy wrote: I do not believe that forgetting his townreads is a significant mark against him.
I share roomy's doubts about Lich though. . . [snip] . . . I also thought as Birdy that it looks more like a newbie who has no real clue how to fit in.
On the other hand #68 and #72 look so weird.to be honest.-- i.e., an explicit claim that the read change was intentional and justifiable, with an ATE of credibility. Just two hours later in 68, when confronted with further suspicion, Lich abandons the defense, saying it was an "accidentalslip." In other words, 68 admits 66 was a cover-up, one made while claiming honesty.
At bottom I am of two minds. I can see where you all are coming from with newb fitting in. I also am having difficulty believing newb!scum would so abruptly about face and confess error without some guidance that the position was indefensible, and such guidance was unlikely at an off-peak hour. At the same time, the specific wording of these posts is bugging me.
@Skellen, I do view 68 and 72 as answering how his reads changed -- they were soft towns that he did not really feel. To me thats another mark against him, making blendy reads that he didnt feel to create some presence. I am nowhere approaching high-confidence, but I dont view 72 and after as redeeming in the way some other players have suggested.-
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teacher Jack of All Trades
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An IC-aside, since someone didnt know this in my last game. Up above these words, next to the post number, there is a link labeled "ISO" Clicking this will allow you to see the all posts made by that one player in ISOlation. On the bottom of the screen, you can set up double or triple ISOs, which gets more helpful after flips lend associational data.In post 78, Birdy wrote:Reading his ISO-
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teacher Jack of All Trades
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teacher Jack of All Trades
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teacher Jack of All Trades
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teacher Jack of All Trades
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Yea, about that topic. As a rule of thumb, if one player directs a question to second, its considered bad form to answer yourself because the original player may have had a purpose in steering the question, and providing an earlier answer could influence the second's own response. So I wanted to check before I shared my own reaction to Roomy.In post 104, CatStar wrote:
Jump in about this topic?.In post 87, teacher wrote:
Want me to jump in or to let CatStar speak?In post 85, Skellen wrote:What was your slight suspicion about roomy before?-
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teacher Jack of All Trades
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Perhaps today, pretty please? Just a reminder that I have pending questions for you in 36. Id also like to see some reads from you since you havent posted game-relevant content yet, and theres alot of meat here.In post 81, Emperor flippyNips wrote:Hi all should have some time to catch up later today-
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teacher Jack of All Trades
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That his approach was even more confusing than I had thought, but that I wasnt going to get a read from continuing and I was appearing rude so better to drop it to keep the gameroom pleasant.In post 114, roomy wrote:@teacher, what conclusions, if any, did you reach from your conversation with Lich last night?
Good feeling. See what I said in 93 -- "I am of two minds." So no, I dont believe my argument because I dont really have one. Its not a null, its a conflicted scumlean OR newb!town and cant decide. He certainly isnt my strongest scumread.In post 114, roomy wrote:I'm getting a gut feeling that teacher doesn't believe his own arguments
Agreed -- see the first quote and response. But you get town points for noticing it and my waffling.In post 114, roomy wrote:his pressure on Lich hasn't actually moved the needle much, IMO.
Ummmmm, no? I know you dont like the language focus/disagree with the ATE language, but my first post on Lich - 93 - made that unique contribution. The subsequent interaction was not based on anything you said, but more chasing down each of Lich's new responses in real time.In post 114, roomy wrote:his logic has followed my own pretty much turn-for-turn-
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teacher Jack of All Trades
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I wound up posting it anyways without thinking about your question (sorry for that) in 89. Roomy had regressed for me based purely on activity after securing a town. One of the hardest things for Scum to do is maintain the Want it More/Solviness of an active town player (which I had seen in Roomy at the start) over the course of the game. But the activity, and town vibes, are back.In post 109, Skellen wrote:
Sure, go on.In post 87, teacher wrote:Want me to jump in or to let CatStar speak?
Kind of hoped CatStar would have elaborated more on this, I figure she meant his questions towards Clem/teacher?-
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teacher Jack of All Trades
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To the extent it helps, I was only ever going to RVS Clem once I saw the playerlist. A vote on Flippy would produce data, so I wanted to save any vote on him for when it would have meaning. I didnt vote him when I put up 36 because I wanted him to react to the question without additional pressure. Does that resolve it?In post 108, Skellen wrote:Although if you feel free to resolve that I wouldn't mind.-
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teacher Jack of All Trades
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teacher Jack of All Trades
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teacher Jack of All Trades
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teacher Jack of All Trades
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teacher Jack of All Trades
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teacher Jack of All Trades
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teacher Jack of All Trades
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teacher Jack of All Trades
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teacher Jack of All Trades
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So, I want Lich lynched. I'm putting the vote back up and going to make my case.
VOTE: TemporalLich.This is L-1.
First, we have the obvious, confusing play and some odd wordings. Im not going to belabor this one, since it has been much discussed already.
Second, we have the continued waffling. This hasnt been hit as much. 115 says CatStar's the scummiest, and 117 explains as an active lurker. But 198 moves CatStar to a lean NAI without explanation -- CatStar's rate of posting hadn't increased (about 5% of posts 120-180; about 4% of posts 10-120, with about the same level of interaction).
Third, which is both related and to me most telling, I see no effort to solve at all. At no point does Lich investigate any of his suspects -- I dont see questions directed to CatStar or Skellen. It seems almost as if he knows their alignment, and is seeing what sticks. The lack of desire to solve -- investigate or justify his reads with specific reactions to specific posts just comes across as not towny.
Fourth, and the most compelling point for scum!good, is Birdy's 78. I saw this as a potential partnership play, of accelerating the wagon that was tied with Lich and hopefully redirecting attention to another slot.
Finally, I think we learn the most from flipping Lich. His near-lynch wagon (roomy-skellen-me-Urap-Clem's intent) would almost certainly contain one scum if he flips green. This information would force me to reevaluate the townblock I am willing to form to PoE this game with Roomy, Skellen, and URAP.
I conclude by reminding the board this is L-1-
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teacher Jack of All Trades
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Clem, when rewritten, can we get the list. I found your intent on Lich troubling given the gamestate of multiple lurkers subject to being replaced and several days left. I have less of a grasp of where you are coming from this game generally - I get that it may be being overgamed, but I need to see inside your head a little more.In post 218, Clemency wrote:i'll have to rewrite my list-
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teacher Jack of All Trades
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For context, since I have evolved, Flippy was my strongest scumread at this point from the disappearing act. Having more activity from that slot has moved it up for me, at least beyond Lich where I think I get to learn more.In post 123, teacher wrote:He certainly isnt my strongest scumread.-
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teacher Jack of All Trades
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Nice! Thanks for calling this out. It made me reread CatStar's ISO generally, and I see alot of thought-processes, questions, and reads that I like. She hasnt felt as present when skimming the game, but there is real depth there. Thank you. Both you and she get town!points.In post 136, u r a person 2 wrote:I liked catstar's thought processes in 80-
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teacher Jack of All Trades
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I dont blame him, and its consistent with his investigation in Newb 1909. The fact is that I at least try for this meta as scum too. The best example I can provide is when scum!me conclusively proved someone town at mylo, [url=viewtopic.php?p=10286465#p10286465]here[/post]. There is always a rational case to be made to for a scum!win because town does scummy things too.In post 136, u r a person 2 wrote:clem I want to town read. he agrees with me on skellen, good. Paranoia about teacher is pretty meh tho.-
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teacher Jack of All Trades
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EBWOP
I dont blame him, and its consistent with his investigation in Newb 1909. The fact is that I at least try for this meta as scum too. The best example I can provide is when scum!me conclusively proved someone town at mylo, here. There is always a rational case to be made to for a scum!win because town does scummy things too.In post 136, u r a person 2 wrote:clem I want to town read. he agrees with me on skellen, good. Paranoia about teacher is pretty meh tho.-
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teacher Jack of All Trades
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your AVI of the wet tiger from the old game. I found it endearing.
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teacher Jack of All Trades
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I did overlook that, and somehow transmuted CatStar's linguistic criticism in 120 to you. My bad. I was more focused on the lack-of-uniqueness comment, because I did think that language catch was new data, even if less concrete.In post 148, roomy wrote:I'm a big fan of linguistic analysis. maybe you just overlooked this?-
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teacher Jack of All Trades
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Pretty high.In post 149, u r a person 2 wrote:@teacher what's your confidence level on this slot? might sheep you if it is high-
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teacher Jack of All Trades
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Nooo! That is distinctly NOT the point of newbie games. They are to learn how to play generally, and learn some skills to playing well. Regardless of your alignment, if you are today's lynch you can learn why people suspected you and learn how to avoid it (again, regardless of alignment). Scum-catches and mislynches all happen, the point is to make sure you are having fun and trying to win, not necessarily survive til the end game.In post 177, TemporalLich wrote:If I die today, then I probably shouldn't play Mafia ever again.-
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teacher Jack of All Trades
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Town finding town is possibly more important than finding scum. This is an important aspect of the game that is often underappreciated. It is why I shared my first read, even though it was a townread, and part of why I stayed quiet on my early suspicions of flippy. That Roomy turned to Flip pretty immediately was just the sort of mindmeld (I had been thinking but not saying it) I needed to basically conf!town him at this point.In post 185, CatStar wrote:So now trying town hunting instead!-
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teacher Jack of All Trades
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See my vote. Not falling for it, just offering an encouraging aside.In post 237, good wrote:you are falling for his bait.-
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teacher Jack of All Trades
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@Clem - Can you give a CatStar read?
@Good - re240: 1. That was a real-time reaction. It felt like the momentum in the live gamestate was in the air between lich and catstar, and birdy was trying to push it one way without real substance. It probably wouldnt stand out on a cold-read, but when made (as one of very few substantive posts) it felt awkward and forced. 2, re Roomy, see my mind-meld comment. Flippy was my unstated scumread at that time.-
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- Location: DC-area
Yes, but the wagons were tied, and Birdy offered a defense of one while pushing the other. It simply felt like a possible partner play at the time.
To be clear, associational data is indeed weak pre-flip - that is part of why I didnt vote or make a case on your slot. But I am intrigued that you jumped right onto the associational point while ignoring all the other aspects of the case on Lich. Worried he might flip red?-
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teacher Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 6184
- Joined: April 9, 2018
- Location: DC-area
In post 227, good wrote:i'm probably not going to do reads, as im not very good at them. if i find a scum, i'll tell you
OK, so you gave one read. Right now you've got an inherited vote. Who would YOU vote, and why?In post 236, good wrote:i think nips is lazy town
his meta is to start wagons, and he is doing the exact opposite.