Newbie 2014: Aesthetic | Game Over

[LicketyQuickety]

UNVOTE:

While I catch up. In the meantime, why is this game so slow?

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On top of P4 I think Mikul is probably Town for being so loud.

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nightkill

Porkens has been killed by the mafia. He is

Vanilla Townie

. It is now Day Two! Day Two will end in (expired on 2020-07-04 00:00:00).

Oh, that's weird. Porkens I have played with several times. Never seen him do a wall post like that. In any case, Arthur self hammering is bad which makes reading the NK pretty much WIFOM.

Votato's unvote was weird. He really had no reason to unvote there. There wasn't intent to hammer or anything. Given that my pred pointed out that we typically dance around the lynch for a while before deciding, I think makes the self hammer pretty anti-Town all things considered. Is moral for this game really that bad?

[LicketyQuickety]

I'm more or less caught up.

votato pushing Anthony is Scummy, but I am not sure votato wouldn't do that as Town.

I think this games solves with one more flip.

Going to:

VOTE: votato at this time.

[LicketyQuickety]

especially in hindsight

I really don't think so. I think it was bad and you knew you were on Town.

[LicketyQuickety]

For now

UNVOTE:

You were already not voting?

[LicketyQuickety]

yes, i was fairly convinced i was on town at that point. plus i was concerned that the day would end prematurely. turns out, i was right on both counts!

It's a completely moot point because you couldn't have known that at the time. I also expect you to "get" that it's not normal to end the day that early. Were you reading them as Town or what? Why did you unvote there besides just, "didn't want to end the day early"?

For now

UNVOTE:

You were already not voting?

whats the relevance here quick? why bring that up?

When someone does something weird, I think an explanation is in order.

[LicketyQuickety]

UNVOTE:

There's zero context here for why you unvoted. So ofc you can make up any reason you want like, "I really thought he was Town."

[LicketyQuickety]

you asked why i unvoted, i told you.

But it comes AFTER the fact.

I think you unvoted him because you KNEW he was Town and didn't want to be on the wagon after he flipped.

[LicketyQuickety]

you asked why i unvoted, i told you.

But it comes AFTER the fact.

I think you unvoted him because you KNEW he was Town and didn't want to be on the wagon after he flipped.

in that case wouldnt i make up a reason and state it publicly to avoid exactly this scenario?

That's a theoretical that loses all practical application. Mafia doesn't work like that.

[LicketyQuickety]

ive played with quick at least half a dozen times at this point. never have i seen town!quick act like this.

You're not even voting me, dude.

[LicketyQuickety]

oh good point. VOTE: quick

viewtopic.php?f=50&t=82949
here is a quick towngame. can you spot the difference?

That's pretty much the worst example that you could have given. I was defending myself the whole time that game. And I was the D1 lynch. This argument is deeply flawed.

[LicketyQuickety]

I'm actually waiting for votato to say how these games are diff.

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quick the main thing thats consistent about you is that you're active, aggressive, and inconsistent. you flip flop all over the place. you werent on the defensive that game until you flip flopped a bunch. you also always talk about "your system" and how good you are at mafia. you havent mentioned your system for scumhunting. you have only pressed one read. youve been decently active, but the way youre active feels different too.

None of that is a good illustration of my play as Town as a whole. You've played like, 6 games with me and use only one to say why I am Scum. I haven't seen you use meta before and 6 games of meta isn't even enough. Your meta arguments are also incredibly weak given the point of reference is based on my first game back in 2 years. I also don't think you actually believe I am Scum.

[LicketyQuickety]

I think it's pretty clear at least one of TL/votato is Scum. I think TL has made some posts that are hard(er) to fake as Scum, so that leaves me thinking votato is Scum. So Scum are in those three between TL/votato/nash. I really think the way votato dropped off means he's Scum since he doesn't actually have legit reasons for why I am Scum and can't defend that position.

[LicketyQuickety]

I think it's pretty clear at least one of TL/votato is Scum. I think TL has made some posts that are hard(er) to fake as Scum, so that leaves me thinking votato is Scum. So Scum are in those three between TL/votato/nash. I really think the way votato dropped off means he's Scum since he doesn't actually have legit reasons for why I am Scum and can't defend that position.

Why have you implicitly cleared Anthony?

Totally forgot about them.

[LicketyQuickety]

I think it's pretty clear at least one of TL/votato is Scum. I think TL has made some posts that are hard(er) to fake as Scum, so that leaves me thinking votato is Scum. So Scum are in those three between TL/votato/nash. I really think the way votato dropped off means he's Scum since he doesn't actually have legit reasons for why I am Scum and can't defend that position.

Why have you implicitly cleared Anthony?

so you think anthony is scum as well?

I think the post that people took issue with is newbie-town, but their vote on Arthur could be scum motivated. Unlike you, I am very interested in hearing what their replacement says.

But the reason for my question wasn't because I think Anthony scum, but because LQ is omitting them, which is odd, if not slightly scummy.

I haven't actually seen them post. It would be great to see what their replacement has to say. I more or less forgot that slot exists.

[LicketyQuickety]

I'd love to field questions, Mikul, but it looks like you are not even reading me, so whatev.

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I think the lynch sequence is between


tl - nash - votato and that solves it. Could def be talking out of my ass but my gut is just hitting so hard on this

I would flip the order, but people have different reads.

[LicketyQuickety]

Anthony has just basically not been here. How many posts do they have? I feel like VT might replace out.

[LicketyQuickety]

I feel like Anthony was either over cautious Scum or just Newb Town. Not much else in their ISO, but they did make a good point about Arthur being Town:

I'm hesitant to L-2 Arthur for only one reason (and if someone wants to show me why this is meaningless, then I have no problem voting), does him trying to make sure the vote against him is counted seem anti scum?

[LicketyQuickety]

I think it's pretty clear at least one of TL/votato is Scum. I think TL has made some posts that are hard(er) to fake as Scum, so that leaves me thinking votato is Scum. So Scum are in those three between TL/votato/nash. I really think the way votato dropped off means he's Scum since he doesn't actually have legit reasons for why I am Scum and can't defend that position.

excuse you? yes, me dropping off while on VLA is totally AI. i did defend why you're scum. i picked one game to link, but pretty much every game ive been with you was the same, except when you lurked in all your games and got replaced. but whenever youre active your playstyle is the same.

How do I know you were V/LA?

[LicketyQuickety]

Also, I must not have read closely enough because I never saw the cop claim.

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and quick why is anthony town to you?

I don't have anthony as LockTown.

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Anthony has just basically not been here. How many posts do they have? I feel like VT might replace out.

PR hunting. this is a scum mindset

I never PR hunt - even as Scum. I am literally PR blind. We've had this conversation before.

[LicketyQuickety]

I feel like Anthony was either over cautious Scum or just Newb Town. Not much else in their ISO, but they did make a good point about Arthur being Town:

I'm hesitant to L-2 Arthur for only one reason (and if someone wants to show me why this is meaningless, then I have no problem voting), does him trying to make sure the vote against him is counted seem anti scum?

the best analysis quick can do, even after a flip is "town would be unlikely to say this non-gamesolving thing" quick is not town here.

Why is it a non-gamsolving thing?

[LicketyQuickety]

The bit that bothers me is the confidence that the game will be solved tomorrow. This is some kind of crowd-pleasing effort that is utter BS - it can't possibly be genuine because it's simply not true. Especially not true since in the same post they put a vote on someone who is generally being read as town or null.

I'm getting to the same place as votato, but for different reasons.

Yeah, I just have enough faith that with players as competent as Mikul and Lunatic that this game should theoretically be solved given another lynch due to associations. But you might have a point that sometimes even good players don't look at that stuff as closely as they should. Maybe I am over valuing those confirmed players ability, but it seems like they know what they are doing so *shrug*

I still stick by that there is probably one Scum in you/votato.

[LicketyQuickety]

I think it's pretty clear at least one of TL/votato is Scum. I think TL has made some posts that are hard(er) to fake as Scum, so that leaves me thinking votato is Scum. So Scum are in those three between TL/votato/nash. I really think the way votato dropped off means he's Scum since he doesn't actually have legit reasons for why I am Scum and can't defend that position.

excuse you? yes, me dropping off while on VLA is totally AI. i did defend why you're scum. i picked one game to link, but pretty much every game ive been with you was the same, except when you lurked in all your games and got replaced. but whenever youre active your playstyle is the same.

How do I know you were V/LA?

well i might have posted in the thread about it. i definitely set my site status to VLA and PMd the mod. is this really the push you're gonna me tho? lol. activity is never AI for me.

Did you post itt about it? The mod made no note of you going V/LA

and quick why is anthony town to you?

I don't have anthony as LockTown.

that isnt what i said, nor is it what you said. you listed anthony as a townread. i asked why. dont deflect.

Where did I say I had Anthony as Town?

I feel like Anthony was either over cautious Scum or just Newb Town. Not much else in their ISO, but they did make a good point about Arthur being Town:

I'm hesitant to L-2 Arthur for only one reason (and if someone wants to show me why this is meaningless, then I have no problem voting), does him trying to make sure the vote against him is counted seem anti scum?

the best analysis quick can do, even after a flip is "town would be unlikely to say this non-gamesolving thing" quick is not town here.

Why is it a non-gamsolving thing?

being hesitant to put someone L-2 as a newbie isnt AI. talking about a vote counting isnt really very AI either. its an empty statement. there were statements with real content you could have talked about.

I gave a fair and balanced view of that post. You're throwing some serious shade with really weak arguments. You are definitely playing differently now then elsewhere I have played with you. You are way more aggressive for sure.

[LicketyQuickety]

I think it's pretty clear at least one of TL/votato is Scum. I think TL has made some posts that are hard(er) to fake as Scum, so that leaves me thinking votato is Scum. So Scum are in those three between TL/votato/nash. I really think the way votato dropped off means he's Scum since he doesn't actually have legit reasons for why I am Scum and can't defend that position.

here is a three-person PoE that does not include anthony.

Yeah, which doesn't actually mean I was TRing Anthony. This was discussed. I forgot Anthony was even in the game.

[LicketyQuickety]

and you think im more aggressive in this game than youve seen before or less?

More. Usually you attack things without actually being direct about it and letting people see for themselves. That's not what I am seeing now.

[LicketyQuickety]

Your points are also off this game. Like, usually you play in a way that you attack stuff by saying something that INFERS what you are saying rather than pointing things out directly and your points are usually right on the mark.

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It could be that you are just adjusting your meta since you don't have much experience yet(?) but I doubt it.

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I hate posting from my phone.

Unrealated to the game, but I share this sentiment SO SO MUCH. Phones and Mafia are a horrible horrible combination.

[LicketyQuickety]

I feel like I don't really have a choice who we lynch at this point. I don't really have a read on Anthony at this point while Ydresse seems slightly Townie.

Should I just hammer at this point?

[LicketyQuickety]

Whatever.

[LicketyQuickety]

Not feeling good about this flip and not feeling good about Tl hammering.

[LicketyQuickety]

Ok fair do.

I am a bit annoyed at myself that I got the Anthony/Ydrasse thing so wrong. 2 from 2 games where I have OMGUS'd followed by Confirmation Bias leading to shitty outcomes...

You don't say.

[LicketyQuickety]

Although I will say votato WAS playing differently than other games I have played with him.

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@Mod, you don't make any sense.

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If I lose us this game I apologize in advance. Without results and outing prs so early and the early innactivity and replacements has made this very hard to deal with and read properly. That being said I don't think tl is scum. The way that he reacted to what he thought was a scum slip seemed town and if he is scum then good game

I rbed quick and votato once.

Bro, if you were not confirmed Town, I would probably SR this post.

[LicketyQuickety]

Nash hasn't really been on my radar and IDRK why. I think that slot has pretty much just lurked all game and just done nothing else. Mikul has an okay point on Tl, but I still think that just makes votato slot Scum. I haven't checked super closely, but given Nash has lurked so much, I can totally see Nash/votato as Scum team.

[LicketyQuickety]

I think it's pretty clear at least one of TL/votato is Scum. I think TL has made some posts that are hard(er) to fake as Scum, so that leaves me thinking votato is Scum. So Scum are in those three between TL/votato/nash. I really think the way votato dropped off means he's Scum since he doesn't actually have legit reasons for why I am Scum and can't defend that position.

here is a three-person PoE that does not include anthony.

and you think im more aggressive in this game than youve seen before or less?

ok. VOTE: ydrasse

ydrasse, it sucks for you, but you repped into a scummy slot and PoE was going this direction no matter what.

i think i was the main person deflecting from looter, so saying that it was scum resisting that wagon isnt gonna get you very far, at least with me.

Then he got banned. I will go back and look again for anything that looks like a Non-Associative with votato and Nash.

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I found like one thing that is even remotely close to being a Non-Associative between votato/Nash. I will not actually link the post because I don't want to give this metric away yet, but it doesn't completely fulfil my criteria for a Non-Associative so whatever. Still, I would say it's maybe better than nothing, but Nash has something really similar with my slot as well, so IDK.

I guess I will just trust you on Tl at this point since you aren't budging there anyways.

[LicketyQuickety]

I found like one thing that is even remotely close to being a Non-Associative between votato/Nash. I will not actually link the post because I don't want to give this metric away yet, but it doesn't completely fulfil my criteria for a Non-Associative so whatever. Still, I would say it's maybe better than nothing, but Nash has something really similar with my slot as well, so IDK.

I guess I will just trust you on Tl at this point since you aren't budging there anyways.

You don't have to trust me. I could be entirely wrong. I've often been wrong. I just picked his post as geninue excitement about what he thought was a scum slip and if I'm wrong then we've already lost. I won't be able to break away from that

So the second I townread him (in my mind )

Nash has to be scum

Well, It's not like Nash is going to self hammer (but he might), and I kinda want to hear from everyone before throwing a vote down there. Too much left in the air if we go into Elo and not everyone posted the previous Elo.

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judging by their interactions and unnatural scum theatre.

This makes no sense. I am pretty sure I have brought serious accusations against votato. How are you saying that is Scum theatre?

[LicketyQuickety]

Spoiler:

Guess mafsepia is out.

VOTE: votato

to the newbies: welcome! I don't recognize any of you, so I'm assuming we have some first timers. A few tips: this is mafia, people are going to accuse you of being a liar and a cheat. It's gonna feel bad. The sooner you can get used to it the better for you. People are also going to attack you for what you say. As a member of the town, you should be sharing your thoughts anyway, and with time you will learn how to share your thoughts without getting attacked.
You should take some time to carefully read the above posts and familiarize yourself with some of the jargon and guides, especially if you have no mafia experience or no experience with forum mafia. The SEs are here to offer help, but do not take our word as law. I think even if we are scum none of us would tell lies that would confuse you or make you bad players, but there is a decent chance that at least one of us is scum and will lie to you about some things. That said, you shouldn't hesitate to ask questions of each other and if the SEs. The two other SEs are a lot more experienced than i.

To everyone, but especially the SEs: please view this post as nai. Again to the newbies: don't assume that just because I'm trying to be helpful that im a townie. Is make this post a scum too.


VOTE: brass omgus

@Mikul Alright, I do agree this game is a little too quiet. Spam away I guess.
@looter Same question as votato, why would you lynch me?

Partly a reaction test, partly because your posts could be newbie-cum-scum - your posts have a feeling of anxiety in them, you seem to want to make sure you fit in and say the right thing. My question of Brassherald was semi-serious as I am still fairly inexperienced and wanted to see if your two posts were worth caring about.

Underlined the bits I think come across as anxious:

Tbh Mikul has about 60% of the posts so far, slow it down please. Can't keep up!
VOTE: Mikul

I know this is a dodgy tactic but I promise to unvote

if you slow down...

Wait, I can't do that, we're still in the RVS.

Literally just realised that's the third vote on Mikul. Better UNVOTE: Mikul

VOTE: Anthony, because there can only be one A-man...

VOTE: Town looter You've stated you want to lynch me without reason, and also voted Mikul pretty early in the game over metareading.

Also you've stated you'll be lurking the whole game.

Loads of anti-town plays that scum would do.

FoS: Town looter

Waaaaiiiit. Missed underlined in first skim.

Any reason you are paraphrasing what is fairly obviously a joke so critically?

Did you learn anything from the reaction test? This is good reasoning otherwise. In particular the nervous unvote usually comes from scum and scum have a hard time picking up on jokes. VOTE: arthur

Fos brass for that defense

Sorry I didn't vote when I posted my last message, this is my first forum game and I honestly wasn't sure if voting before discussion about our thoughts was normal (I saw someone else use FoS without voting before so I wasn't sure). I was ready then and I'm ready now to L-1 Arthur for the reasons I posted before. Isn't it normal for people to claim when they get down to L-2/L-1? He just threw a tantrum.

VOTE: ArthurConyl L-1

don't care for this all that much. Still better than brass' vote

yeah both anthony and brass really didnt do any scumhunting yesterday. brass was active lurking and LAMISTing pretty hard.

VOTE: anthony

2 scum are within Anthony, vex, townlooter and brassherald.

and id remove townlooter from that PoE i think. i think.

i still think looter is likely town. Im fine voting either brass or Anthony. I feel that claiming was a bit silly, you were both already town. Oh well. Dunno why everyone is ignoring vexossa. Definite room for a lurky scum there

I think brass is a good option here

ok i gues ill defer to mikul and lunatic since they were both in that game with you and know you better. but i still think brass is the best lynch today.

Im ready to lynch brass

Outside of RVS, votato never placed his vote on brass, inspite of having him under his radar for almost the entire Day. I can see a lot of subtle shading, but none actually look genuine.

You vote votato for his unvote and then throw more shade at him for pushing Anthony, which you say could have come from town!votato. The read based off of one unvote does not feel sincere at that stage, after which you proceed to fencesit. Votato's 380 was not good, because the continued refusal was what made brass look town to me. Neither of your meta reads are good. 461 and 462 just don't make sense.

It makes perfect sense to have some scum theatrics there since neither of you really had any traction to be eliminated.

Except I have never had votato as Town. And I kept saying votato's arguments were weak because they were. I also completely demolished his reasons for SRing me so much that he couldn't rightly vote me anymore. I think he knew he was in a tunnel on Town and gave up the ghost because it wasn't gaining any traction cuz he knew what he was saying was off.

[LicketyQuickety]

Oh omg, I didn't know votato was banned. Replacing him now!

[LicketyQuickety]

Also, I must not have read closely enough because I never saw the cop claim.

what was the purpose of this post?

IDK. I didn't see that there was a Cop claim. That seemed like an important detail I missed, but I honestly can't remember why it mattered.

[LicketyQuickety]

[/V]Nash[/V]

Don't really want to do this 1v1, but I'd rather do it with Nash than Tl I think.

[LicketyQuickety]

VOTE: Nash

[LicketyQuickety]

Not hammering.

Also, I must not have read closely enough because I never saw the cop claim.

what was the purpose of this post?

IDK. I didn't see that there was a Cop claim. That seemed like an important detail I missed, but I honestly can't remember why it mattered.

It’s a really weird post for you to make in the context of both PRs already having been revealed, something you did acknowledge prior to this post.

I understand what lunatic/mikul/votato we’re going for with the reaction test of pushing Ydrasse for a claim, but the cat was already out of the bag by the time you posted. So I’m left with the explanation that you just forgot what the game state was? You’re fairly invested into the game by this point so I have a hard time buying that.

Because claiming cop would have been something I would have pressured.

[LicketyQuickety]

Does it follow then that you not pushing the cop claim means you realized the whole thing was a farce right after?

Yeah. When it was explained it made sense.

[LicketyQuickety]

I kinda want to take the whole exchange as genuine town confusion from you. I think as mafia you’d have a more solid understanding of the game state, and even in a point of confusion, you’d have expressed in the mafia PT instead of the thread.

I’m not ready to bet the game on this read, but it’s where I’m at right now.

I mean, it's basically we lose the game if Nash is Town and we know JK is getting killed unless Nash is RB. Not really sure what else to say here.

[LicketyQuickety]

Like, Micc, why don't you want to vote Nash at this point? There's literally zero reason not to.

[LicketyQuickety]

You bring up a good point. Presuming Nash is mafia, TL shouldn’t hammer until Mikul claims a jailkeep target for the night. If Nash flips RB then Mikul’s jailkeep target is confirmed town even if Mikul dies. If Nash flips goon then the jailkeep target is irrelevant.

On the flip side, we’re headed to the stage where Nash is confirmed to be mafia. Another path to consider is that we agree who Nash’s partner is today while we have Mikul’s input and commit to that elimination for tomorrow. That’s the road I’m going down by questioning you. Do you want to talk about a Micc/LQ/TL final three now or not?

Predit: this post explains that I hope. TLDR: not giving mikul a chance to claim a target or weigh in on final three is basically slapping confirmed town in the face and I’m not gunna do that

Nash has one vote afaik. I'm just pointing out that it doesn't really make any sense for you not to vote there.

Given the above, I am not really sure who I would vote at this point if it was Tl and you. I'm not going to just arbitrarily pick one either. I'll try and ISO nash + your pred + Tl to inform me on that, but I already kinda found that it's totally possible that Nash is teamed with you with one post offering a slight hesitation. I haven't checked for Tl I don't think, but will do that now.

[LicketyQuickety]

Mikul and you are voting Nash. My vote would be a hammer

Fair enough.

[LicketyQuickety]

I'm fairly certain that the Scum team is Nash/Micc.

[LicketyQuickety]

[LicketyQuickety]

I'm fairly certain that the Scum team is Nash/Micc.

Ok, but why?

Because I don't believe that you are not hammering just to wait for Mikul. And I ISO'd Nash/Tl and saw some stuff I thought makes it really difficult for Nash to be teamed with Nash. That said, I can see some room for it in some of Tl's other pushes, but overall I saw Tl push votato's pred in a very real way. It doesn't constitute as a Non-Associative, but it's pretty indicative they are not teamed.

[LicketyQuickety]

Is there a reason you’re keeping that case abstract and not using clearly identifiable points in the game or direct quotes?

Yes.

[LicketyQuickety]

So what’s the catch then? For a pro activity and discussion player you’re being pretty prohibitive of conversation here.

I've documented elsewhere why I don't want to out all the ways I get reads. Besides, the info is out there already. I've just adapted and picked what I want to work on more specifically. It's all out there. All the ways I get reads is out on Mafia sites. I just don't feel like having this discussion every game. If you dig into me you'll find what you are looking for.

[LicketyQuickety]

yeah, I kinda hate that as a take on mafia theory. It's never been appropriate for me to say that as your game mod, but I'm happy to say it as another player.

To each their own. I actually do it to preserve my Town game and keep it effective, but if you have a different opinion, fine. It's not like I am not giving reasons for things. Half the time it's just that I think something is obvious so don't feel the need to explain it because I'm not actually all that sure of the read being correct anyways, but I digress.

[LicketyQuickety]

LQ, do you think Mikul should claim a JK target?

IDK. Micc's point about leaving a crumb to confirm the final Town member only works if Nash, if Scum, is RB. Otherwise it's a complete moot point.

[LicketyQuickety]

UNVOTE:

I kinda hate this game. It seems everyone is fairly Town to me. I don't have a great grasp of really feeling like I have anyone nailed.

[LicketyQuickety]

Fun game. Still tryina figure stuff out, but I do think it was weird for Micc to try and decide who to lynch in F3 on F5.

[LicketyQuickety]

I feel like a post was deleted. Am I wrong?

[LicketyQuickety]

I haven’t noticed anything missing

I feel like Tl quoted themselves and posted this:

You were right votato, that was a pretty easy read, esp if you iso Mikul first then ignore all his shit as you go through (seriously those phone posts hurt my head...)

Nice to meet yall!! I know we can't stay friendly forever,

but not having to choose a solid vote is pretty calming

.

The dice say Vote: mutesa1

nothing against you m8 just had to do something..

I think everyone has missed the scummiest part of this post. The dice thing is just awkward, but NAI imo,

BUT why the fuck is Vexo not calm in the first place?

What possible reason do they have to agitated? Town should be pretty fucking chill during RVS by my reckoning. This has pinged me strongly.

VOTE: VexoOssa

Other reads as follows:

Anthony - Noob-town. Not sure I buy the rationale for his wagon. I have the feeling Lunatic or votato (one, prob not both) are pushing another mislynch on a newbie.

votato - Null, leaning town, but I think one of him or Lunatic is scum.

Mikul - Null, very slightly scummy, but POE probably says town. His flop onto me seems suspicious, but generally sounds pretty town. However, I have personally observed him and Lunatic playing a damn good town sounding game.

Brassherald - Mild scum vibes, jumping on Arthurs wagon the way he did doesn't sit right for me. Both confirmed townies called him out at some point too: Arthur in 76 and Porkens in 132.

Lunatic - Mild scum vibes, mostly because of POE with him/votato. Slot was slightly scummy from the one bad post and inactivity, then the wagon on Anthony stuff. I also don't think his posts in the last 24 hours have been helpful at all, but that's not real AI at this stage...

Which is the exact thing I saw that points me more towards Micc being Scum over Tl. I mean, my TR's are usually good, and I wasn't on the Newbie, but maybe I should analyze this post more.

Red is a bit OTT, but beyond that it doesn't look TOO bad. It's a little weird, but not like super Scummy or anything.

[LicketyQuickety]

i think more importantly, LQ and TL are expressing fairly accurate reads at this stage in the game.

Yeah, well I tend to have better reads in Elo then the middle of the game.

[LicketyQuickety]

I feel like Tl quoted themselves and posted this:

LT's post 669 quotes me and links to that post, so that's probably what you're remembering?

Yeah, that's it. I thought some weird shinani's were going on for a sec.

[LicketyQuickety]

Oh and Mikul jumping on the wagon later in the page surprised me, and drew my attention away from her post.

Why?

[LicketyQuickety]

Oh and Mikul jumping on the wagon later in the page surprised me, and drew my attention away from her post.

Why?

Assuming Town!TL, isn't it obvious? Mikul switching onto Ydrasse had a huge impact on my involvement in the game. I thought I was getting eliminated as town, something I had accepted and was doing everything I could to make sure my death was useful. All of the sudden the momentum shifts and now I am back in the game.

In other words, self pres.

[LicketyQuickety]

The thing is, I found you were pretty happy to get out of that conundrum. I can't tell if that is AI or not, but if it is, it looks more Scummy than Townie.

[LicketyQuickety]

Because I was completely convinced of her guilt and riding some sweet sweet confirmation bias.

You're going to want me to go through her post and address each point now aren't you...? Lol, F

no i don't think you need to address ydrasse's original catch up now. im not asking for it at least

when you say confirmation bias, do you mean following the opinion of the confirmed town players or a bias you held earlier in the game? I didn't see much suspicion of that slot from you, just acknowledgement that it was low activity overall.

The former, I became more and more convinced of her guilt as others, especially Mikul, agreed with my logic.

Oh and Mikul jumping on the wagon later in the page surprised me, and drew my attention away from her post.

Why?

Assuming Town!TL, isn't it obvious? Mikul switching onto Ydrasse had a huge impact on my involvement in the game. I thought I was getting eliminated as town, something I had accepted and was doing everything I could to make sure my death was useful. All of the sudden the momentum shifts and now I am back in the game.

In other words, self pres.

Nah, I had accepted being eliminated. In fact I internally thought it was probably pro-town to get rid of me as Mikul was SRing me at the time, and I believed myself to be a liability if I were to make it to endgame (and esp. since I had just lost a game by being eliminated as town on the final day).

The change in direction meant I had to start thinking about the game again.

One the one hand you are saying Mikul agreed with your reasoning. On the other it's apparent Mikul ended up switching his vote to Ydresse and you were quite thrilled with that as demonstrated by you overlooking that slot as a whole in favor of their lynch. Yeah, I'd say that's self pres even if you initially said you didn't mind dying. I have seen plenty of players claim they don't care about dying. Sometimes Scum does it for the exact reason that it gets them off the hook.

[LicketyQuickety]

Plus, you never self voted, which I respect as self voting goes against win con unless you are Scum and hammering yourself.

[LicketyQuickety]

If you can see genuine happiness, then I would agree with you reading it as scummy. But I thought I was pretty neutral on the subject? Where am I thrilled?

You sure seemed like you were more on the positive side than the negative side shortly after Mikul voted differently. It's not like you actually said, "I am really happy about this" but I am reading into it that you were.

We have a few hours to Lynch.

We have two people vla and one person Mia. Just hammer and if we are wrong we will deal with the fallout next dp. We won't have time to get another lynch off with this many people missing

Right you are.

VOTE: Ydrasse

Come on roleblocker flip!

it’s gonna be vt but thanks.

remember what i said.

No!

it’s gonna be vt but thanks.

remember what i said.

As an aside, regardless of flip, thanks for subbing in and being active. Kinda sucks you had to do a bunch of catch up only to get eliminated 5 minutes later, but thanks anyway.

[LicketyQuickety]

Heh, I think that's more to do with thinking I had scum pinned, rather than being happy at being alive.

You were really saying you were not going to remember what they said? That seems especially rude for you.

[LicketyQuickety]

it’s gonna be vt but thanks.

remember what i said.

No!

This "No!" is either that you are saying no to remembering what they said, or expressing lament for Ydrasse flipping VT. In both cases it does show a level of elation in the exclamation mark.

[LicketyQuickety]

Sorry, it should have been NoooOOOOoooooOOOooooo!!!! as it was lamenting Ydrasse being likely to flip town (at this point they would have little reason to lie). It was right about here my little confirmation bias bubble popped.

This would be a lot easier if you story didn't keep changing.

[LicketyQuickety]

Thanks for being entertaining Nash.

[LicketyQuickety]

Sorry, it should have been NoooOOOOoooooOOOooooo!!!! as it was lamenting Ydrasse being likely to flip town (at this point they would have little reason to lie). It was right about here my little confirmation bias bubble popped.

This would be a lot easier if you story didn't keep changing.

Please cite your sources for this one. I don’t see it.

This feels like big time shading of TL to me

not letting this one go, even if we’re moving onto the next day phase

Oh? You don't see a conflicting narrative from Tl at ALL? I think it's about as clear as mud what Tl's original intention was given what he's said. You disagree? Why?

[LicketyQuickety]

I think it’s really misrepresentative for you to push that as a case.

It felt like he was excited. Then he said he wasn't. That's about all it is. I still feel he showed he was generally happy to be let off the hook and the fact he kinda covers this up is quite suspect.

[LicketyQuickety]

I intend to vote LQ today.

[LicketyQuickety]

Is this just because of my case on Tl that you disagree with?

[LicketyQuickety]

I’d say that’s just a small part of the overall picture. I was leaning this direction base on interactions Day 3 and my reading of day 2. I also spent some time looking at Day 1 over the night phase and agreed with the consensus that brassherald looked pretty bad on that wagon. Also Mikul’s most concrete read from end of day 3 is TL town, so basically there’s a bunch of things that come together to make me think it’s you.

Are you even looking at my slot though? Like... you seriously think I am more Scummy than Tl based on D3? Somehow that doesn't feel right.

[LicketyQuickety]

Yeah. I feel like all of the suspicion of the TL you’ve given since I replaced in has been purposed towards keeping options open for you. The things you’ve pushed don’t feel alignment indicative to me, more like throwing shade instead. Meanwhile you had this case against votato that you felt strongly about that has been almost entirely set aside.

It's called reevaluating. I can change my mind. It actually shows I'm Town since it's more likely that people change their mind as Town.

And there’s also other things in that paragraph besides my talking about day 3. So even that response kinda feels like you’re shading or discrediting me.

Yeah, but the rest of your arguments hing on that. That's why I talked about that and not everything else.

I guess my question here is, who do you intend to vote for? If we’re cross voting, I don’t really care to engage with you any more. If you’re voting TL or even not sure yet I don’t have a problem engaging. But I don’t want it to be the kind of engagement where I give my thoughts and you tell me they are bad.

What gives you the idea I will say your "ideas are bad"? Not sure what you are accusing me of here.

I don't know who I am going to vote for yet.

[LicketyQuickety]

Like... How can I control how you see my pred? I can't really do anything about that. The only thing I can attack is what you said about my play.

[LicketyQuickety]

LQ has been making a pretty weird argument

Yeah, if I do that, it usually means I'm Town. I generally have better reasons as Scum.

I know self meta is Scummy, but you can check this for yourself or I can link games for you.

[LicketyQuickety]

This went quiet.

Well, I probably lost at this point. I tried my best but it looks like I'm dead at this point. Micc is basically saying he doesn't want to engage with me and you think Micc is Town so...

[LicketyQuickety]

Huh? Seems to be a miscommunication as my understanding is we have a circle of SRing going on:

LQ SRing TL > TL SRing Micc > Micc SRing LQ

My previous post was probably a bit all over the place, but what I was trying to say is you are probably town, and Micc probably scum. I am, currently, buying your argument about sounding scummy, but actually being town (obviously not just based on you word lol).

Micc on the other hand doesn't feel all that genuine. The interaction with Nash seemed a little forced, for one, but I want to go back and see if there is anything else.

There was a post you made that had me thinking you were switching over to me. I can try and find it if you want, but I thought it was fairly clear.

Like... How can I control how you see my pred? I can't really do anything about that. The only thing I can attack is what you said about my play.

What does pred mean?

Predecessor. Previous player that was in my slot.

Anthony has just basically not been here. How many posts do they have? I feel like VT might replace out.

PR hunting. this is a scum mindset

I never PR hunt - even as Scum. I am literally PR blind. We've had this conversation before.

Also what do you mean you are PR blind?

I mean, and I have said this plenty of times in other games because this exact conversation has come up, that I cannot actually find crumbs from Town as Scum. There are only 2 things I am good at regarding roles and they both apply to me being Town: I can spot VT sometimes and I tend to put masons in danger because I sense something is off between them. I'll give you a link to a place where I have had this conversation. It already came up once since I've been back playing Mafia.

[LicketyQuickety]

Ok so my only remaining concern with you, LQ, was the absentmindedness - forgetting Anthony was in the game, and some other bits and pieces, made me worry you were playing dumb to mask non-genuine behaviour.

But I hunted around in your meta and found a Town!LQ game where you replaced in and your first read was on the slot you were replacing into. That may have been some big brain meta play, but seems consistent with your faux pas in here.

I am getting more comfortable with Town!LQ.

Just how deep of a meta dive did you do, gosh.

[LicketyQuickety]

I'm fairly certain that the Scum team is Nash/Micc.

Another revisit: What has changed since you made this post

I change my mind a lot. There is too much time in these Days sometimes. Not always. Sometimes you're better off using all the time. Other times I can change my mind with little to no reason.

I found your narrative on being excited that you didn't get lynch a huge question mark. IDK what I think of it anymore. Micc says it's Townie or NAI and says me focussing on that is Scummy. Not sure where he is getting that as I am pretty sure he hasn't meta dove me. If he had, he'd have said it was Townie. I tend to have strange reasons for my reads sometimes. I even have a quote of Nachomamma8 saying such in my sig. He seems to be focussing almost exclusively on playing "correctly" rather than taking the player and playstyle into consideration. I am not sure what to make of that as some of the old ways of playing generally focus on that way of playing more. I had votato as a strong Scum read. That was half of me SRing Micc. Micc has since not really done much that I consider AI. I was basically just going after things I thought was Scummy with you and sometime you have to make stuff happen anyways.

I will say it seems like you have a lot more WIM than Micc does. That counts for something because you are meta diving and stuff and I don't think Micc is. Micc has kinda just dropped off at this point. He even said he didn't want to engage with me if I was going to vote him.

[LicketyQuickety]

WIM?

Wants it More.

[LicketyQuickety]

1. ok, but I think your stated reasons for reevaluating are suspect so I'm not taking the change of heart to be made in good faith.

Why?

2. I don't see the connection that makes my read of day 3 hing on the general consensus of dead players, or of my day 1 & 2 reads.

Pretty sure that is not anyone's argument???

3. That's what I took your 751 to be saying. That post's only purpose is to discredit my opinion.

Because it's not true???

So then when I combine point 1 with point 3 I feel like they contradict in that while 1 might be an honest attempt to get your vote right, 3 makes it feel like you're not here to have a good faith conversation. I'm at the point where I plan to vote you. So I feel like its on you to either cross votes with me or make a compelling argument for TL as mafia.

That's kinda lame. It feels like you are reaching here and accusing me of reaching in the process.

VOTE: Micc

[LicketyQuickety]

would it help if I pulled up self meta of every final 3 i've been in the last 3 years? I don't think there is a single one that ends in any other way besides me being mislynched.

"micc has argued really well but it doesn't feel genuine" or "it feels manipulative" being classic deciding factors.

Pretty sure that is a fallacy of some kind. Saying you are Town now because you have been Town before doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

[LicketyQuickety]

VOTE: LicketyQuickety

I'm not sure why you would bait me into voting you first if you are Town here.

[LicketyQuickety]

we probably could have been productive day 3, but that route ended with you not wanting to talk about how you make reads. so like what do you want to engage with me about at this point?

I gave my reason for that. If that's your reason for SRing me... yeah, IDK.

on top of that you call me out for dropping off or not wanting to win....and its like, I spent my Sunday doing things that are not playing this game. I'm sorry for that but get over it. it's not like ive abandoned the game.

That's... not really my argument. My argument is that showing a real concerted effort to sort the game shows Town mindset. It has nothing to do with you taking it easy on Sunday.

would it help if I pulled up self meta of every final 3 i've been in the last 3 years? I don't think there is a single one that ends in any other way besides me being mislynched.

"micc has argued really well but it doesn't feel genuine" or "it feels manipulative" being classic deciding factors.

Pretty sure that is a fallacy of some kind. Saying you are Town now because you have been Town before doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

that's kind of my point tho! you've done the same thing yourself

I've not like... explicitly stated I am Town because I have been Town in all these other games. That's even more what Tl is saying than I am.

[LicketyQuickety]

LOL

[LicketyQuickety]

Tl, I would be happy to field questions. Micc seems like he would be peeved if I attacked what he said to you, and though I probably could come up with some arguments for why that makes him Scum, I'd rather respect his wishes to not go that route.

[LicketyQuickety]

^ That's granted I can remember why I did what I did most the time.

[LicketyQuickety]

I get why you might feel empathy in this situation, but transitioning that into a read is a mistake. LQ can have all these playstyle based things that make him look like mafia when he's town, but he'll also have them as mafia. He can claim, and he has, that he's so good at playing as mafia that none of those things are present, but it won't be true. At the end of the day, your empathy for LQ doesn't affect his alignment, it just adds to your baseline for what LQ may be thinking at any given time.

First thing that caught my eye.

I don't think Tl is actually going, "I really feel empathetic towards LQ so I think he's Town." That seems like a gross mischaracterization of how Tl is getting his read on me.

Let's start there and see what happens.

[LicketyQuickety]

I get why you might feel empathy in this situation, but transitioning that into a read is a mistake. LQ can have all these playstyle based things that make him look like mafia when he's town, but he'll also have them as mafia. He can claim, and he has, that he's so good at playing as mafia that none of those things are present, but it won't be true. At the end of the day, your empathy for LQ doesn't affect his alignment, it just adds to your baseline for what LQ may be thinking at any given time.

First thing that caught my eye.

I don't think Tl is actually going, "I really feel empathetic towards LQ so I think he's Town." That seems like a gross mischaracterization of how Tl is getting his read on me.

Let's start there and see what happens.

Are you waiting for a response from me? Or is there more to come from you?

More waiting to see if Micc would combat what I said. Don't necessarily "expect" a response.

[LicketyQuickety]

didn't he literally explain that while there is mafia motivation and inconsistencies on the way that LQ made that push, he understands that it could come from town!LQ. Part of the reason he thinks this is because he himself is prone to making similar pushes as town. And all of this came as a response to me questioning the read he made based on meta that you were town.

and my response to him was: sure, just be careful because no matter what LQ tells you, the pushes he makes when he's mafia are at least as likely to have mafia motivation and inconsistencies. No one is inherently scummy as town and not as mafia. So at the very most these playstyle things you've pulled from the meta aren't good indications of alignment, can you try something else.

So where do you interject empathy exactly? Like why does it have to be this thing about "empathy"? That kinda seems manipulative pushing a narrative that isn't really there

*shrug*

Tl can tell me if I'm wrong I guess. Trying to play more "polite" because I think most of the people I have played with tend to hate me and Micc has kinda pointed that out to me in a way I can see.

*shrug* again.

[LicketyQuickety]

There is a bunch of stuff, but it mostly comes back to me empathising with someone who seems to have similar play as I do. Not similar in approach or style, but similar in the sense we both seem to be regularly read as scum. I found myself thinking that any case I built on LQ would be, in a sense, identical to the one he built on me - and there is a case there (minor scum motivations, little inconsistencies, etc.). So I am sort of applying some super dodgy logic that if his case can be semi-legit, but wrong, its possible mine can as well.

So then if you step back and think about motivations, Scum!LQ doesn't really have any interest in throwing shade at me. The easiest path to his win condition would have been stay consistent with the reads he had earlier in the game, and pocket me. You would've fought him, but you are fighting him anyway, so the risk of him being outplayed in a 1v1 was largely moot. Conversely Town!LQ has every reason to investigate and pressure me. He doesn't know I am town (well, he does now), and there was a real scenario based on vote records that I was scum (I wish I was that good...). On the surface it looks very much like proactive scum-hunting.

On the other hand, you haven't really bothered to pressure me at all. You have largely tunnelled LQ and, at times, white knighted me. This kind of aligns with a Scum!Micc scenario.

That being said, there is lots of WIFOM here, and this isn't LQs first rodeo, so I am feeling like its about 60/40 right now.

Don't see the word "Empathy, Empathize" or its variants here. Where did you pull that from?

[LicketyQuickety]

There is a bunch of stuff, but it mostly comes back to me empathising

Okay, so here it is. But uh... Not sure how you mean to say Tl has built a case out of that?

[LicketyQuickety]

It feels weird to just... IDK, make a case on command?

I feel Micc has been more or less manipulative in what he is saying and isn't actually looking at what people are saying and tends to put an emphasis on putting his own spin on things that gives him a more favorable narrative.

/shrug

[LicketyQuickety]

It feels weird to just... IDK, make a case on command?

I feel Micc has been more or less manipulative in what he is saying and isn't actually looking at what people are saying and tends to put an emphasis on putting his own spin on things that gives him a more favorable narrative.

/shrug

Ok slightly different question. If I wasn't town-confirmed, would you be reading me as town or scum (assume we are just prior to me being confirmed as town), and why?

I think it was more that I was SRing Micc more at the time.

[LicketyQuickety]

It just got to the point that I thought Micc was being disingenuous so I voted him. I think that is more or less how it went. I also felt he was baiting me to vote him before he voted me and I didn't like that.

[LicketyQuickety]

For better or worse, I'm ready to end the game now. Just don't like this sorta slow content that is mostly just reviewing things.

No pressure, but yeah, just sorta want this game to end at this point. I have other games going on and this isn't really a super productive game and I'd rather use it as meta at this point one way or another.

[LicketyQuickety]

A parting gift:

[LicketyQuickety]

Ultimately, I think Tl played well regardless of who they choose to vote. Had good reads which Micc pointed out.

[LicketyQuickety]

It feels weird to just... IDK, make a case on command?

I feel Micc has been more or less manipulative in what he is saying and isn't actually looking at what people are saying and tends to put an emphasis on putting his own spin on things that gives him a more favorable narrative.

/shrug

Ok slightly different question. If I wasn't town-confirmed, would you be reading me as town or scum (assume we are just prior to me being confirmed as town), and why?

I think it was more that I was SRing Micc more at the time.

I mean, regardless of the vote. Where was I on the scum----null----town spectrum? And, while I suspect it isn't easy for you, why?

Ironically, it was that I believe what Micc was saying about you. I started to realize that you were more Town in a short time. I'd probably have had you as Null-Town. So not like a super strong read or anything, but enough to push me to voting Micc.

[LicketyQuickety]

Lol, tempted to vote you just for that outrageous pocket.

Actually pretty funny.

Good to still have a sense of humor. Not saying that because it would sound too much like a pocket attempt.

[LicketyQuickety]

Ok fuck it.

I have a pretty viable argument why you are scum, but it doesn't seem as likely as Scum!Micc on balance.

VOTE: Micc

Thanks, you made the right choice.

[LicketyQuickety]

I have been informed not to be an ass.

Sorry, I was Mafia.

[LicketyQuickety]

Haha. Nah I’m ok with you being an ass.

But thanks for putting me out of my misery.

I was so fucking close to voting you. I think I have a tell for you in future games now though

I am quite easy to read as Scum if you have meta on me. If you DON'T have meta on me, I am quite difficult to vote in F3.

[LicketyQuickety]

We did it Nash!

[LicketyQuickety]

Haha. Nah I’m ok with you being an ass.

But thanks for putting me out of my misery.

I was so fucking close to voting you. I think I have a tell for you in future games now though

I am quite easy to read as Scum if you have meta on me. If you DON'T have meta on me, I am quite difficult to vote in F3.

Funnily enough you auto-pocketed me through your background - fucking empathy, why can't I be a cold hearted basterd

Yeah, having empathy and not being good at lying are generally positive traits in people.... just not in Mafia.

[LicketyQuickety]

After reading your meta, I am glad you are doing much better these days thou. Mental health issues suck nuts.

I'm actually pretty thrilled that you are able to tell something like that. Thanks!

[LicketyQuickety]

I mean, and I have said this plenty of times in other games because this exact conversation has come up, that I cannot actually find crumbs from Town as Scum. There are only 2 things I am good at regarding roles and they both apply to me being Town: I can spot VT sometimes and I tend to put masons in danger because I sense something is off between them. I'll give you a link to a place where I have had this conversation. It already came up once since I've been back playing Mafia.

This is actually true btw.

[LicketyQuickety]

[LicketyQuickety]

Thanks to everyone for playing and giving it their best effort. Glad it went fairly smoothly regardless of the things in the down swing. Would gladly play with any of you again.

Thanks for modding the game keyenpeydee.

[LicketyQuickety]

I just read through the thread: LQ, you did an excellent job of turning your slot around.

Thanks!