Newbie 2067 - Pizza! - End!

[Azeru]

Questions for all:

Do you prefer playing as mafia or town?

Do you like pineapple on pizza?

Depends on my mood, but generally I'd say I prefer playing as mafia.

I don't hate it. Like I'll eat it if it's there, but I wouldn't ever actually order a pizza with pineapple on it.

Here's a random question to everyone.

How confident or nervous are you about winning this game?

I'd be lying if I said I was confident.

[Azeru]

Anyways, skimming through this all before bed. No particular reads so far, but a couple posts pinged my attention.

Here's a random question to everyone.

How confident or nervous are you about winning this game?

Honestly, it's hard to be confident at this stage, but Luke is a pretty good player, so if he's on the Town side I'm pretty optimistic

Here's a random question to everyone.

How confident or nervous are you about winning this game?

I would say decently confident. I am coming into this game off of a pretty good game. Town win on Day 2

On the other hand, it would be hilarious if he were the scum this game

Oh Zyla, must we always be on opposing sides?

I know this was already semi-sorted out, but jokingly or not I think it's questionable at best to assert to another player "we're on opposing sides". Odd wording and a stretch to that conclusion from the previous comment imo.

I'd prefer to do Town reads later, and focus on what we think about possible scum reads/leans right now.

I understand the thought behind this, but it's poorly worded and as a standalone message only serves to deprive town of information. Any read - town read or scum read - is information. I see no particular reason to strive for one or the other first.

[Azeru]

I know this was already semi-sorted out, but jokingly or not I think it's questionable at best to assert to another player "we're on opposing sides".

Odd wording and a stretch to that conclusion from the previous comment imo.

Actually rescinding this part, I misunderstood when I read that interaction the first time, I get it now. The comment itself still strikes me as off though.

[Azeru]

I'm really not too sure about HockeyFan. To me he seems Town, but

I'm very leaning away with his partner reads right now.

will bet on saying Zyla's a decently good town read, as much as I wish we had scumreads, this is the best we can do.

This game has been a messy and not too great for me. For now, good night.

What is wrong with partnery reads? Imo you and Luke were paired because of his post #24. Also your response to Haschel's questioning seemed a bit off(More null than scummy) but still a bit scummy.


As for Azeru's and cyrus's opening, Azeru's was maybe town leaning? And Cyrus's posts were interesting, I really don't know how to gauge them just yet, so hes probably null rn

I don’t mean it like it’s a bad thing, that was poor wording.

Partners, to me, is a way to start with weak reads early, and progress into better reads and such.

Can you clarify this a little more? I'm still not 100% sure exactly where you stand on this, but my understanding is that you have no problem with partner reads in general, you just didn't like the ones that HockeyFan was suggesting. Is that right?

[Azeru]

On the topic of HockeyFan, this is actually really interesting to me.

As far as I can tell, it seems like all of your scum leans have been partner reads so far. Is that coincidence or is it just your style to look more specifically for pairs then any individual player?

[Azeru]

Honestly, I was expecting to have to wait until IRL tomorrow to have some reads either direction, but I guess I got a strong one early.

With that being said, I will vote Zyla for stealing my question

VOTE: Zyla

I find it interesting that you mention my question but don't actually respond to either of them

I mentioned it because I was going to ask the "Do you like pineapple on pizza" question and it seemed completely NAI but I wanted to see a reaction by voting u. I didn't bother to respond to the other one. I do not know why ignoring a RQS post is scum leaning?

(This quote looks weird since HockeyFan replied within the quote, but that is just how it is, check the original posts)

I do also want to point out that Zyla didn't say it was a scum lean based on the RQS, she just said it was interesting. Not the same thing.

[Azeru]

Strange Matter is the scummier one right now but STD is very close to being as scummy Strange rn(although as of right now, the read on STD can change a ton based on their next few posts, unlike the Strange SR from me rn)

Can you restate why Strange is scum?

Based off your questions for me, and likely the start that I had early on.

Aside from the fact that something clearly changed for him between posts 89 ("SR are Luke > STD > Strange") and 114 ("Strange is the scummier one right now")

[Azeru]

Strange Matter is the scummier one right now but STD is very close to being as scummy Strange rn(although as of right now, the read on STD can change a ton based on their next few posts, unlike the Strange SR from me rn)

Can you restate why Strange is scum?

Based off your questions for me, and likely the start that I had early on.

Aside from the fact that something clearly changed for him between posts 89 ("SR are Luke > STD > Strange") and 114 ("Strange is the scummier one right now")

@Hockey can you detail this?

[Azeru]

Unvote, Vote HockeyFan

Please for the love of god announce that

this vote puts HockeyFan at E-1

[Azeru]

Spoiler: snip

At this point I think he’s not even being serious.

Do u think hes not being serious as town or is just deliberately wasting towns time as scum?

Not sure, both are completely plausible but his grammar feels absolutely intentionally like that.

kinda like this from Strange more town points for them. Idk maybe Im completely wrong on this scum read which leads me to my next scum read of Zyla. I think Zyla is lazzily pushing me here as scum seeing that Cedricson, and a bit of Luke and crys were already pushing me. I think she was looking for an easy mislim by further pushing/burrying me while also having no other intent than to tunnel me

Luke wasn't even thinking you were scummy though, where are you getting this narrative?

He didnt? I was getting the assumption by him pushing me by pressuring me about the fact that I SR him and Strange. and fwiw, A. I said

a bit of

and thats not even the main content of my post

Pedit:

Okay Cyrus didnt post. Why does that change that your push was meh and based on other ppl pushing me?

I don't have any more response to this. My first post about you had enough information that saying it was only based on other people pushing you just seems insincere.

Okay it may not be

only

, but it was defintely based somewhat on other peoples reads?(may be wrong on this)

Nope, just you

Okay if that is the case, then I rescind some of my SR on u but i think you still may be possible scum because your only read is that I am scum

I don't understand this logic. "You might be scum because you think I'm scum" just doesn't make sense to me.

Anyways, the past 3 pages have been an absolute fiesta. Everything circling around cyrus' line of discussion is just awful. Yes we've gotten a lot out of it in terms of more posting and interaction, but it just has a terrible mouthfeel, there's so much I don't like about it. The entire concept of it is fishing for information that only serves to benefit mafia, or at the very least benefits mafia significantly more than town. Posts 168, 171, and 176 are bad bad bad. The kind of logic applied here only works if the concept isn't loudly broadcast to the entire game.

Then you have 205 and 224, basically bragging about being unreadable. The point of playing either side is to appear as town, not to create an air of uncertainty.

I can sort of see why people are backing off of this, but I just don't agree with it. I do not vibe with cyrus' posts.

VOTE: cyrus

I feel comfortable leaving my vote here for time being.

[Azeru]

every one will clime vt unless its scum then they aim at pr role but smart scum know this and say vt any way. so yes even if we say clime and the person saids they are pr then chances are they are not.

Why are you arguing that that anyone should be claiming less then 24 hours into Day 1?

What is the benefit?

your learn the truth soon trust me one day your think the same . right now i could just be messing with your head to see what all i can get out of you so far . luckwarms reaction makes me think they are town so i wont vote them.

So this was a reaction test?

I don't love this question in context. He's insinuating that yeah, he 'could be' messing around just to gauge reactions, but let him get to that point and say it for himself as opposed to handing him the out. To me this feels like the earlier situation quoted below.

Strange Matter is the scummier one right now but STD is very close to being as scummy Strange rn(although as of right now, the read on STD can change a ton based on their next few posts, unlike the Strange SR from me rn)

Can you restate why Strange is scum?

Based off your questions for me, and likely the start that I had early on.

Please do not answer questions that weren't specifically addressed to you. I don't care about what your answer to the question is;

I do care very much that you spoonfed Hockey an answer before he had a chance to answer it for himself.

[Azeru]

You quoted the 2nd part of that to do what ... exactly?

I emboldened the part at the end that was most pertinent. I quoted the second part to draw the direct comparison between the situations, and show the perspective that Luke asking Cyrus if his bit was a reaction test kinda feels like he was just giving him a free out.

[Azeru]

You quoted the 2nd part of that to do what ... exactly?

I emboldened the part at the end that was most pertinent. I quoted the second part to draw the direct comparison between the situations, and show the perspective that Luke asking Cyrus if his bit was a reaction test kinda feels like he was just giving him a free out.

By asking someone who's making anti-town statements if their statements were anti-town "as a test", of course they're going to say yes. Without that question it's much harder for them to later go back and say "oh it was a test".

[Azeru]

I do not. You can look at my profile and see this is only my second game on the site in an almost 4 year span.

[Azeru]

You quoted the 2nd part of that to do what ... exactly?

I emboldened the part at the end that was most pertinent. I quoted the second part to draw the direct comparison between the situations, and show the perspective that Luke asking Cyrus if his bit was a reaction test kinda feels like he was just giving him a free out.

By asking someone who's making anti-town statements if their statements were anti-town "as a test", of course they're going to say yes. Without that question it's much harder for them to later go back and say "oh it was a test".

i stated it was a test . just messing with your head to get a reaction in which case luke came off right . pr hunting is anti town if any one was up for it i could have found scum. and so did hockey

PR hunting - especially 24 hours into a game - is anti-town. It is so blatantly anti-town that nobody is going to be up for it, and you should know that. So then the question is why, right?

I do not. You can look at my profile and see this is only my second game on the site in an almost 4 year span.

im adding flavor to the game

I don't like the taste.

[Azeru]

I'll reiterate and say I get it. I won't deny the other side of it being 'adding flavor to the game' or 'reaction testing' or whatever it may be. It very well could be just that. Regardless of whether or not it is that, I don't vibe with it at all for reasons stated, and my vote will stay where it is for now.

[Azeru]

@Azeri can you please explain why you’re voting for Cyrus right now? You’ve been prodding and questioning Cyrus for a while now, and you choose to stay when there’s logical move from several accounts that says not to vote them?

I explained it in my 237 and 248. A lot has happened since those posts that I haven't had time to fully catch up on until now, but I'll go ahead and UNVOTE: . Much in the same boat as Luke as quoted below.

In regards to cyrus, I am not sure if cyrus is town, but I am willing to let them live through Day 1

______________________________

287 straight through to 295 is a bizarre interaction. I don't love the question, and I don't love the answers. It's all just... weird. I think Luke's response in 295 is generally speaking the best of the bunch, STD's 292 is the weakest. I can't decide if I feel the question itself is posed as a genuine question to just try and figure out where town goes from here, or if it's mafia bait (like HF said in 293), but I feel like the former is more likely. I can't imagine expecting to get and follow advice on how to be scummy from town.

Too late in the night to do really deep dives into ISOs right now, but a couple quick thoughts on glances through a few:

Haschel

: I generally like their thought processes, and I feel townie motives from most of their posts. The only things that ping me as a little weird were the E-1 drop on HF in 132 (although this was taken back

real

quick), and the casually claiming VT in their opening. Those things are minor to me so I'm leaning town here.

Luke

: Lot of posts, very wordy. There are really very few things Luke has done that I don't love (already made points towards both of them, being my 95 directed at 29, and my 238 directed at 188), and they're fairly minor. Good communication, thought processes are fine, taking proactive decisions in diving into ISOs, it all kinda checks out. Nothing

majorly

townie but nothing majorly scummy either. I am almost inclined to be leaning towards the idea of Luke being scum with the concept of "too clean to not be dirty". As in all these wordy posts are an active effort to seem more town than he is. But I'm not sure about that yet. Null for now.

STD

: I don't like the vibes present in 13 and 20. The press back on Haschel in 52 and 56 for voting Strange early are also a little odd to me, It plays out Haschel is pressing for information and STD is butting in to relieve the pressure for... what reason? 315 I'm not sure how to feel about. It's a self-meta call recognized as such. I will admit that some of my read here is due to playstyle, but I don't feel much of any townie proactivity or thought processes coming through in any of his posts, so I'm leaning cautiously nullscum.

[Azeru]

Spoiler:

@Azeri can you please explain why you’re voting for Cyrus right now? You’ve been prodding and questioning Cyrus for a while now, and you choose to stay when there’s logical move from several accounts that says not to vote them?

I explained it in my 237 and 248. A lot has happened since those posts that I haven't had time to fully catch up on until now, but I'll go ahead and UNVOTE: . Much in the same boat as Luke as quoted below.

In regards to cyrus, I am not sure if cyrus is town, but I am willing to let them live through Day 1

______________________________

287 straight through to 295 is a bizarre interaction. I don't love the question, and I don't love the answers. It's all just... weird. I think Luke's response in 295 is generally speaking the best of the bunch, STD's 292 is the weakest. I can't decide if I feel the question itself is posed as a genuine question to just try and figure out where town goes from here, or if it's mafia bait (like HF said in 293), but I feel like the former is more likely. I can't imagine expecting to get and follow advice on how to be scummy from town.

Too late in the night to do really deep dives into ISOs right now, but a couple quick thoughts on glances through a few:

Haschel

: I generally like their thought processes, and I feel townie motives from most of their posts. The only things that ping me as a little weird were the E-1 drop on HF in 132 (although this was taken back

real

quick), and the casually claiming VT in their opening. Those things are minor to me so I'm leaning town here.

Luke

: Lot of posts, very wordy. There are really very few things Luke has done that I don't love (already made points towards both of them, being my 95 directed at 29, and my 238 directed at 188), and they're fairly minor. Good communication, thought processes are fine, taking proactive decisions in diving into ISOs, it all kinda checks out. Nothing

majorly

townie but nothing majorly scummy either. I am almost inclined to be leaning towards the idea of Luke being scum with the concept of "too clean to not be dirty". As in all these wordy posts are an active effort to seem more town than he is. But I'm not sure about that yet. Null for now.

STD

: I don't like the vibes present in 13 and 20. The press back on Haschel in 52 and 56 for voting Strange early are also a little odd to me, It plays out Haschel is pressing for information and STD is butting in to relieve the pressure for... what reason? 315 I'm not sure how to feel about. It's a self-meta call recognized as such. I will admit that some of my read here is due to playstyle, but I don't feel much of any townie proactivity or thought processes coming through in any of his posts, so I'm leaning cautiously nullscum.

Everything about this post reads town. Just wanna know what your read on Zyra is?(i know you were gonna do ISO's later but what is your base read on Zyra)

I don't have a great read on them at the moment. I feel that their reads are okay, but the reasons behind them are weak or just gut reads. A good number of their posts are also basic fluff or metagame thoughts and advice. Examples being 88, 111, 252, and almost-but-also-kinda-not 280. Could just be a playstyle thing but these kind of posts put me off a bit.

@Azeru

what makes haschel's offenses minor enough to put him in town for you

The vote onto HF was taken back in 4 minutes, with a reason that I wasn't sure of until I saw that the account was *14 years old*, so considering I don't know how things were back then, I'm inclined to believe that putting them at E-1 was a genuine mistake. And the casually claiming VT didn't actually feel particularly scummy to me, just something that caught my eye.

[Azeru]

Spoiler:

@Azeri can you please explain why you’re voting for Cyrus right now? You’ve been prodding and questioning Cyrus for a while now, and you choose to stay when there’s logical move from several accounts that says not to vote them?

I explained it in my 237 and 248. A lot has happened since those posts that I haven't had time to fully catch up on until now, but I'll go ahead and UNVOTE: . Much in the same boat as Luke as quoted below.

In regards to cyrus, I am not sure if cyrus is town, but I am willing to let them live through Day 1

______________________________

287 straight through to 295 is a bizarre interaction. I don't love the question, and I don't love the answers. It's all just... weird. I think Luke's response in 295 is generally speaking the best of the bunch, STD's 292 is the weakest. I can't decide if I feel the question itself is posed as a genuine question to just try and figure out where town goes from here, or if it's mafia bait (like HF said in 293), but I feel like the former is more likely. I can't imagine expecting to get and follow advice on how to be scummy from town.

Too late in the night to do really deep dives into ISOs right now, but a couple quick thoughts on glances through a few:

Haschel

: I generally like their thought processes, and I feel townie motives from most of their posts. The only things that ping me as a little weird were the E-1 drop on HF in 132 (although this was taken back

real

quick), and the casually claiming VT in their opening. Those things are minor to me so I'm leaning town here.

Luke

: Lot of posts, very wordy. There are really very few things Luke has done that I don't love (already made points towards both of them, being my 95 directed at 29, and my 238 directed at 188), and they're fairly minor. Good communication, thought processes are fine, taking proactive decisions in diving into ISOs, it all kinda checks out. Nothing

majorly

townie but nothing majorly scummy either. I am almost inclined to be leaning towards the idea of Luke being scum with the concept of "too clean to not be dirty". As in all these wordy posts are an active effort to seem more town than he is. But I'm not sure about that yet. Null for now.

STD

: I don't like the vibes present in 13 and 20. The press back on Haschel in 52 and 56 for voting Strange early are also a little odd to me, It plays out Haschel is pressing for information and STD is butting in to relieve the pressure for... what reason? 315 I'm not sure how to feel about. It's a self-meta call recognized as such. I will admit that some of my read here is due to playstyle, but I don't feel much of any townie proactivity or thought processes coming through in any of his posts, so I'm leaning cautiously nullscum.

Everything about this post reads town. Just wanna know what your read on Zyra is?(i know you were gonna do ISO's later but what is your base read on Zyra)

I don't have a great read on them at the moment. I feel that their reads are okay, but the reasons behind them are weak or just gut reads. A good number of their posts are also basic fluff or metagame thoughts and advice. Examples being 88, 111, 252, and almost-but-also-kinda-not 280. Could just be a playstyle thing but these kind of posts put me off a bit.

@Azeru

what makes haschel's offenses minor enough to put him in town for you

The vote onto HF was taken back in 4 minutes, with a reason that I wasn't sure of until I saw that the account was *14 years old*, so considering I don't know how things were back then, I'm inclined to believe that putting them at E-1 was a genuine mistake. And the casually claiming VT didn't actually feel particularly scummy to me, just something that caught my eye.

[Azeru]

Woohoo double posting. Neat.

[Azeru]

Final 3 for completeness

Azeru

lean scum

Their iso feels very empty. Not just post count, but even in the posts they have, it is mostly just asking questions without putting any of their own reads/takes out there. Like they feel like they are being overly careful putting their own opinions into the thread (like every post before 237 has none of their own opinions)

Then 237, is their fist vote/push, and it is on Cyrus, which is a very non-controversial take.

333 and 351 are their first posts that feel like they are putting anything of their own out there... and not a fan of those either. Their apparent strongest town read is the person with the least posts in the thread, and even requires them to dismiss the things they don't like from the iso. Then there is shade on me and my strongest TR

You have every right to dismiss this statement as I have no proof to back it up really, but I'm generally a slow player that ramps up over the game. Early on I try to ask questions and gauge general feelings on people, but I don't like sharing my reads until I feel like they're solid enough to share. I don't like making insubstantial posts if I can help it.

That said, I can understand being put off by my vote on Cyrus. You said it was a non-controversial take at the time which I will agree with. But then you're also faulting me for my takes that you do seem to think are more controversial. Do you take issue with my reasoning or is it just that you don't agree with the reads?

[Azeru]

inch fast that hat earth right east. in soon after dont only count, shoot ant vest every . match empty.

good luck

sigh, you are actually so hard to read because half of the time, idk what you're saying lol

its not ment for everyone to read its a code

The more cyrus says stuff like this, and mentions his code unprovoked, the less I believe it.

Like, why bring up the code in the first place if it is real?

Why right this new message, but then be okay with hockeyfan not being able to read it, because if both messages are true, then for all he knows hockeyfan is the exact person he needs to read it?

It is all seeming manipulative / performative at this point

Honestly, I'm surprised that HockeyFan can't read it tbh, but I'm not gonna give them scum points for that or anything
I will ask though, apart from HockeyFan, does everyone know what Cyrus is saying? Because I don't necessarily believe it, but it seems like he's refusing to answer any questions, so if the information is already out there I'd like to make it

known

that it's out there. (And if over 50% of us have figured it out, then chances are at least one of the mafia has, and if one of them know, both of them do)

I am fully aware of the contents of his 'coded' messages.

[Azeru]

I will admit to overlooking the first one until he brought attention back to it though.

[Azeru]

ok smart one what does it say.

I am town tracker.

if there. is a doc, save. me.

it i

funny how you read me.

oh? Ok then Ig cyrus is town LOL, what a wack playstyle. I guess I will go back to pushing my SRS in STD and strange(partly). Can STD give some updates reads?

Well, let's not forget that just because he says he's town doesn't mean it's true.

Though for other reasons, I am having a hard time finding scum motivation in his play. It's anti town, but at the same time the reasons I can think of for which he'd make this play as scum are extremely risky, and even if it played out in his best case scenario, are still mostly detrimental to the scum team.

[Azeru]

@Azeru

- you might miss it because of *vaguely gestures to the last 5 pages* But I responded to your question before.

Any follow up there?

Eh, not really.

I already said that it's pretty much just my playstyle. We're still very early into the game, and at this stage my reads fall less into actual reads and more into "I'll point out this thing about this player that caught my attention but don't have the experience or confidence to say that it actually makes them scummy/townie". As the game progresses and we get more actual information as opposed to... *vaguely gestures to the last 5 pages*, I'll make more hard statements in my reads, but at this point I would honestly rather be scum read for having wishy-washy reads than lean into a read that I don't fully believe in.

I do think it's a bit unfair that in 542 you give Pav a pass for doing something very similar to what I was doing (townie things, scummy things, neutral I guess?), so I'd like to ask if you see something different about the way he did it? He's been saying as well that he doesn't trust in his early reads very much, see:

Spoiler:

I have a really hard time forming reads when there is so much posting going on based on so little actual information. Y'all, it's early and you're acting like we're gonna break the game open here D1.

There you go, 3 garbage reads. Take then with as much salt as you like, I know I will.

(I've just realized that I'm gonna say "it's not based on much" for basically everything I'm about to post so ... Just assume it)

But everyone's just brushed over that. What makes me different?

Vanilla Town is the best role because not only do I get to give zero fucks about drawing the nightkill, it's actually good for me to draw it.

StrangeMatter: Why Hockeyfan?

to every one this isnt a clime its a answer to a question.

I'm actually kinda glad that you say that, because that was my thoughts too, it seems like a reasonable response to my question. I just left it alone because I wanted to see where people were going with that and then it seemed too late to bring it up

I hadn't even remotely considered that it was just an answer to Zyla's opening question. Whether it's a claim or not I still find it NAI, but new perspectives are always fun.

i think more pressure on haschel is a good thing

@std, at the time, haschel is the only person voting strange, does she really need some slack there?

since it was only one vote it wasn't too bad it just seems like a weird thing to vote someone over

I'm going to chime into this bit for the first time, I totally disagree (with the second part, I have no problem whatsoever with more pressure on Haschel). It's post 50 that the vote came out, two pages into the game. Nobody's going to actually get eliminated, and if you can't get someone's attention by direct quote, putting a naked vote on them is the absolute best way to raise their eyebrows in my opinion. I can't believe that that would be a serious vote, Haschel just wanted a conversation and Strange wasn't cooperating.

[Azeru]

I am just wondering, what would we get, from voting me right now?

What's the point of this question? Specifically when asked now. The only votes you've had on you since post 330 have been Pav and Luke, and they've just been sitting there. Cyrus voted you for a quick stint between 435 and 449, but that was for all of two hours and only 14 posts between them. I just don't get why you're bringing this up now.


As an aside, looking into the above point, I noticed something. Cyrus has made 9 total votes in the game so far, and the only person he has not put a vote on is Pav. A quick history of his votes:

Spoiler:

VOTE: azeru

VOTE: hockeyfan

VOTE: zyla

VOTE: strange

VOTE: HockeyFan

VOTE: Haschel Cedricson

VOTE: std

VOTE: lukewarm

VOTE: HaschelCedricson

And a history of him reading Pav:

Spoiler:

Unvote, Vote HockeyFan

Please for the love of god announce that

this vote puts HockeyFan at E-1

or at lest say l1 and then tell them to clime.

This is way too early for anyone to be claiming

you scared if they start ?

Okay, y'all wanted a read? Antagonism is scummy. VOTE: Cyrus

your new so i'll let it slide however people do that on here.

every one will clime vt unless its scum then they aim at pr role but smart scum know this and say vt any way. so yes even if we say clime and the person saids they are pr then chances are they are not.

I do not even begin to comprehend this logic. Basically you're saying everybody will/should claim VT?

And this is an argument for forcing claims?

your right 1 town point for you.

pav pins me as scum

pav pins me as scum

I dont like this at all. Pav has made about 1-2 reads and his read on u was pretty genuine and came from a town perspective so what part of their reaction do u think is scum?

they dont post much and it seems they are looking for easy votes trying to get a mis lynch

Oh yeah the vote counter reminded me

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Save The Dragons

Why, though?

This: 310

I guess I could've figured that out if I scrolled back a little bit. Have I mentioned posting from a phone is suboptimal?

I don't like leaving my vote in limbo so I'm gonna put it on my top scum read for the moment. VOTE: strange

I smell a distancing ploy between them and Hockey.

I'm starting to feel pev is just looking for any reason to vote any one . However strange has been given me where vibs.so this could be early busing

town
Std

Moving up to town
Pavowski
Strange

Null
The guy with the sea do
G avatar
Azure
Zyla

Scum
Lean
HockeyFan
Lukewarm

Odd I don't know Pavowski. Aside from this game but we thought the same thing

@Pavowski nothing pokes out at you on pages 3,4 and 5

Now, I am making an active decision to not expend too much energy trying to read Cyrus, but I do find it interesting that with all his vote tossing, alongside the fact that he pinned Pav as scum a few times, his vote never ended up onto Pav. Another part of it I find odd is the shift between Cyrus' 169/189 and his 222/226. Pav made a single post in between all of that (212) that was just shading/distancing from Cyrus. Which, to be fair, comes up in a good number of his posts.

[Azeru]

my vote didnt last long on pav because i cant fully read him so i keep going back and fourth from null to scum. but i have noteist others who stick out more.

Nope, it's not that your vote didn't last long on him. It's that you didn't vote him at all.

[Azeru]

Actually

VOTE: strange

I am just wondering, what would we get, from voting me right now?

What's the point of this question? Specifically when asked now. The only votes you've had on you since post 330 have been Pav and Luke, and they've just been sitting there. Cyrus voted you for a quick stint between 435 and 449, but that was for all of two hours and only 14 posts between them. I just don't get why you're bringing this up now.

Well, it's mostly just something I thought up about right now. It was more about what could in theory been gained from this vote. If I remember correctly, a few scum reads on me were about buddying, involving people talking about possible partners. If it means getting information, I'm all for it. Only really a thought though.

I like this.
VOTE: Strange

[Azeru]

The above vote puts Strange at E-2.

[Azeru]

VOTE: strange

No, he's double voting again.

[Azeru]

Not sure how to feel about STD putting you back at E-1 either....

Although, I did look back in his iso, and he stated he was scum reading you and willing to hammer after people had time to look over the case. So I guess he did not see the same thing I did in your responses?

I am interested if Pav and/or Azeru agree with me or with STD on how you are handling being at E-1

I'm of the opinion that putting Strange at E-1 didn't result with a whole lot. I threw my vote on with regards to 609, both in the sense that I really didn't love that post (alongside 531 especially), and Strange was advocating for a vote on themselves to acquire information which is... an interesting angle, but I'll take it.

Their reaction felt oddly laissez faire to me, in that they didn't really change how they were playing at all, at least not until you explicitly asked for more in your 681, to which their followups in 683, 687, and 689 were fairly weak. They gave a slight nod towards Pav, then threw my name in there and lost track of that conversation again.

I really like your point made in 698 that it doesn't feel like there's really anyone else behind Strange driving the bus. Because with the way that Strange's gameplay felt exactly the same with that pressure, it definitely feels like they were on their own, as if they didn't have a partner. I don't necessarily think that's anything super indicative to solely base a read off of, but it's a great thought to bring up.

Also, I could've sworn I saw somebody mention something about a Haschel/Strange pairing, but I can't find the comment again. Either way, if we're taking into consideration the previous points made, with Haschel's absence it'd certainly add up.

[Azeru]

After writing all that out, I guess I take back my first statement lol. It didn't come with a ton of content from Strange, but it brought up some new ideas for sure.

[Azeru]

Maybe it is {HC, Strange}

That would explain his "sure, Strange is scummy, but lets transition to Zyla instead" move, and that could explain why Strange didn't have someone in a PT helping them deal with being put at e-1.

Found it.

[Azeru]

I'm really not liking the Haschel v Luke bit that's going on right now if I'm being honest. Both sides have some really shady points behind them.

I

really

don't like how in 759 Haschel throws shade at Strange, and then Zyla, with similar reasons, recognizes the pairing as a "possibility", and then chooses to stray the conversation away from Strange. Saying that someone at E-1 is scummy and then steering the topic away from them entirely. Luke's 775 sums this up fairly nicely.

I also

really

don't like how Luke is stepping in and... making Zyla's reads

for her?

Honestly, it mostly gut and possibly some confirmation bias at this point, but I haven't seen enough towniness to counteract the things I've pointed out before previously.

Okay, I guess I will look to your iso to try and figure it out

"My read is based off of gut instinct and maybe some confirmation bias, and I haven't seen enough to reverse that."
"Okay, I'll figure out why you're feeling that way myself."

And then an entire post in 760 dedicated to, again, detailing Zyla's reads for her.

And then continuing to argue with Haschel on Zyla's behalf for multiple more posts. This in and of itself isn't terrible, defending a town read is one thing. But following 758/760? I do not like this.

The only point I can make for Luke's case in this is that he at least somewhat recognized what he was doing at the end of 780, but the whole thing is really rubbing me the wrong way.

[Azeru]

"My read is based off of gut instinct and maybe some confirmation bias, and I haven't seen enough to reverse that."
"Okay, I'll figure out why you're feeling that way myself."

And then an entire post in 760 dedicated to, again, detailing Zyla's reads for her.

Like, this isn't even an "oh I'll play devil's advocate and see if I can change your mind" or whatever whatever. This is literally Luke saying "I can see you don't understand your own reads, so here's an explanation that you can go with if you so choose."

[Azeru]

....

UNVOTE:

If this is strange's response to being put at e-1, it just doesn't feel like they have a partner?

Like I think that any one in this lobby as Strange's partner would have helped them come up with an angle to push

Maybe everyone I thought was scum before is actually town :/

I wanna revisit this thing tbh. Most of the pressure on Strange just .... died down?

Yeah, Luke kinda killed the push with this post. I will say that I don't entirely think it was unwarranted. I was feeling like the push wasn't really going anywhere and I take it that's where Luke was too.

[Azeru]

....

UNVOTE:

If this is strange's response to being put at e-1, it just doesn't feel like they have a partner?

Like I think that any one in this lobby as Strange's partner would have helped them come up with an angle to push

Maybe everyone I thought was scum before is actually town :/

I wanna revisit this thing tbh. Most of the pressure on Strange just .... died down?

Yeah, Luke kinda killed the push with this post. I will say that I don't entirely think it was unwarranted. I was feeling like the push wasn't really going anywhere and I take it that's where Luke was too.

I am curious why me moving my vote means that I killed that push, since Strange made it back to at e-1 without me.

Why is a push only alive if I am on it? I noticed the same thing before. Like when I moved from voting HC to voting strange, someone said that I killed that push too. And when I did not want to vote Hockey, cyrus seemed to think that meant the wagon was dead on arrival.

If no wagon can live without without me on it, I think we have some problems. I know I am loud in the thread, but I don't particularly want to be the town leader :/

STD put Strange back at E-1 after the fact, yes, but the pressure had already subsided and the attention of the players shifted. For me the statements made just felt like they came as a general "in conclusion, x y z, time to look elsewhere" vibe, and relieved the pressure that was there.

[Azeru]

Heading to work soon, but I want to throw something into the thread before I go, and give myself some homework for later. So without diving or analyzing anything, here's where my gut is at.

Pav

: Decent town lean

Cyrus

: Anti-town but most likely not mafia

HF

: Nulltown

Luke:

Still null, but an interesting case that I really would like to look into. My next big endeavor will likely be diving Luke's ISOs.

Zyla + STD

: Mostly null, but (again, without actually looking at anything) I feel like their content has been mostly fluffy and generally very lackluster. Taking back to something I said about STD earlier, it's hard for me to say if it's playstyle or if I actually think they're scummy, which is something else I will look into later.

Haschel

: Don't love the tone of his recent posts. He's deliberately hiding information, and has pulled attention entirely away from a player that was recently under pressure with motives that he refuses to disclose. Until he chooses to actually prompt discussion and give town information, this is a scummy lean.

Strange

: Another interesting case. I am not 100% convinced that Strange is scum, but there's a lot of confusing shade around their wagon, so I believe there's something going on here. Until I read more onto other people later, I can't say that Strange is most likely to flip red, but there's a solid chance. I'm not against flipping Strange, because regardless of their color it sheds a lot of light on the players around this wagon. I'm keeping my vote where it is for now.

[Azeru]

Remember earlier how I mentioned how much I hate it when people answer questions intended for other people because it spoonfeeds them answers? By the same token when I want specific people to address something I'm not going to tell them in advance the sort of things I'm looking for.

Let me make something clear; my job is not to convince you all that I am town. Y'all can think I lean scum or whatever. My job as a member of the town (and the job of six of you as well) is to convince everybody that the people I believe are scum should be eliminated today. Everything else is secondary.

You can however ask questions of people without spoon-feeding them answers. By your wording right now it sounds like you're waiting for a specific person to notice a specific something and comment on it. Who's to say that'll happen at all? If this is the case, what will you do if they don't notice? Why can't you just ask for their input on the subject?

I understand that you're not exactly trying to seem town, that's fine. But if you're going to try and fulfill your primary purpose of convincing us who you think is scum and who should be eliminated, I would say that you're going to have to be at least somewhat amicable in sharing your thoughts. You're not going to convince anyone of anything by saying "no comment" when asked about your reads.

[Azeru]

17 i'm not sure what to make of his "vanilla town means zero fucks" post, it could come from vt or bombastic scum but i'm not sure it was a good idea to basically say "i'm not a pr don't nk me but also i'm supposed to draw the nk"

i've talked a lot about his interaction with strange

140 i agree with. @Haschel, how do you feel about Hockeyfan now?

759 i'm not focused on you i keep getting asked about you. why do you go for zyla instead of strange?

1) I was asked in RVS if I preferred being Town or Mafia. My reply was I prefer being vanilla town most of all. Somebody caught that but I'm too lazy to find out who.

2) Better, although admittedly that's partially because my two strongest scumreads have gone after him. I've skimmed his ISO but haven't done a deep dive yet like I did with the others I mentioned in my last post.

3) No comment.

[Azeru]

lynch me if it helps.

This isn't happening. I think most of us have been clear that you're not getting voted out today.

[Azeru]

Cyrus, you've said that you think Luke and HF are scum, but your vote is on STD right now. Can you explain where your thought process is on these players?

[Azeru]

so im anti town because i would rather us not lynch then to lynch town ok.

In a 9v2 game, we can make 2 mistakes before we lose. If we do not elim someone today, then we enter into a 8v2 game. In that scenario, we get to make 1 mistake before we lose. Basically, the scum team gets to decide more of the kills before elo that way, and can more easily set themselves up to win.

Another way to look at it, if we elim every day we are able to kill off the the 2 scummiest townies in addition to the 2 scum. So for the scum team to win, they have to be townier then 3 other players. If we no elim today, we are able to kill off 1 scummy townie, in addition to the 2 scum. So for the scum team to win, they have to be townier then 2 other players

No elim on Day 1 quite simply makes the game easier for the scum team to win.

Can't be bothered to check your math at the moment, but the sentiment I agree with. That said, the game is 9 players total, not 11. 7v2.

[Azeru]

do not clime strange that was enough of a crumb

No, I don't like this at all. You're implying that Strange isn't claiming/shouldn't claim because you think they have a PR, right? You just announced that to the whole game. If we're all under the assumption that Strange is a PR anyways, why not let them claim?

[Azeru]

If we're assuming that Strange is a PR, there's a chance that mafia already knows what the role is.

[Azeru]

I'd like to consider something at this point. And before I even bring it up, I want to make it very very clear:

I AM NOT ACTIVELY ADVOCATING FOR THIS.

Do not

make any claims based on this post alone, I just would like to get everybody's opinion on the thought.

Would a mass claim be potentially useful for us? Here's my thought process: Cyrus has claimed Tracker. I don't know if I entirely believe it, and I think that some other people are in that boat with me if I'm not mistaken. If Cyrus is town, there would be absolutely no reason whatsoever for him to lie and claim Tracker (although he's done other things with no explanation, so I'm taking this with a grain of salt, though I'm humoring it to be true for the purposes of this post). So for situation one, let's pretend that that Cyrus is town.

1) Cyrus is Tracker, mafia can trust this. So like I said at the end of day 1, there is a chance that mafia already knows the setup and what the other PR is. They don't yet know

who

the other PR is, so a mass claim would out that to mafia. On the flipside, if Cyrus really is Tracker, I wouldn't expect any counterclaims on the second PR, so we could get town the information of what setup we're in, and have two confirmed towns in our PRs. In the case that mafia does decide to counterclaim, we have a 50/50 that was can then look over, and at least one mafia that we can take down for sure.

2) Cyrus is mafia, lying about being Tracker, and nobody's counterclaimed yet out of fear of the 50/50, or fear of giving up to mafia that they're a PR. In this situation though, mafia do not know the setup or possible power roles. Although nobody getting night killed has implications, because mafia just choosing not to kill is... questionable. In any case, mass claiming in this situation gets us a counterclaim against Cyrus to have the 50/50 outing him, and again, will give the information of what setup we're in, and have confirmed town in PR once the 50/50 is sorted out.

My other thought behind this is that the past couple of pages feel like there's some mild PR hunting anyways, so why not lean into it and put everything on the table?

I am asking this as a genuine question to more experienced players than myself. Is anything in these scenarios wrong? Am I missing any other major downsides? In my head right now, it feels like the worst case scenario is that we end up with two confirmed towns, and major insight into our most confusing player. Mafia then know who is who, but if Cyrus is Tracker, they've got half of it figured out anyways. Town gets a narrowed down scumlist.

Do the pros outweigh the cons? Is the whole idea banking too much on Cyrus' Tracker claim? If I'm a dumbass please tell me so.

[Azeru]

yea I think this is good? At worst we get 1 extra confirmed town on top of cyrus and Luke(Im going under the principle that Luke is green checked(correct me if im wrong) and at best we get 4 green IF the doc saved someone either than cyrus(very unlikely)

I would just like to know why exactly you think Luke is confirmed town.

[Azeru]

yea I think this is good? At worst we get 1 extra confirmed town on top of cyrus and Luke(Im going under the principle that Luke is green checked(correct me if im wrong) and at best we get 4 green IF the doc saved someone either than cyrus(very unlikely)

I would just like to know why exactly you think Luke is confirmed town.

913

Even if we're assuming that there were no deaths because of a Doctor save, this doesn't mean much. There are two mafia, and either one could be the one to do their night kill. Luke going nowhere doesn't mean he's not mafia. All this means is that he wasn't the one that sent the night kill action.

[Azeru]

yea I think this is good? At worst we get 1 extra confirmed town on top of cyrus and Luke(Im going under the principle that Luke is green checked(correct me if im wrong) and at best we get 4 green IF the doc saved someone either than cyrus(very unlikely)

I would just like to know why exactly you think Luke is confirmed town.

913

Even if we're assuming that there were no deaths because of a Doctor save, this doesn't mean much. There are two mafia, and either one could be the one to do their night kill. Luke going nowhere doesn't mean he's not mafia. All this means is that he wasn't the one that sent the night kill action.

[Azeru]

Sorry again for the double post. I'm not sure why it's doing that.

[Azeru]

What does it benefit the rest of town to know who the doctor is right now? Versus what does it benefit the mafia?

Oh, definitely a Doctor being outed is better for mafia than it is for town, but that's only part of it. It is one of the major downsides that I am taking into consideration. My issue is trusting Cyrus to be involved in "the most likely scenario" when (I think?) a mass claim would shed light onto him. Like yeah yeah occam's razor and all that, but can we really bank on that? We're talking about a player that was completely left out of some read lists day 1 due to being borderline unreadable. My big question is would it or would it not be worth doing to know where Cyrus actually lies.

[Azeru]

Alright, fuck it. I've been trying to parse this out and figure out if 1) I could weasel more information out of it first,

Or 2) this is even a good idea to out myself.

But I've come to the conclusion that I'm hurting town and leaving y'all in the dark by keeping it to myself. Gotta say it at some point so now it is.

I am a Jailkeeper. I did not jail Cyrus. I jailed Luke.

This tells me a couple of things. Luke not saying anything about being roleblocked is telling me that he does not want to the rest of us to know that there are any roleblockers in the game, he's trying to sell that we have a Doctor and not a 2 RB setup. The other half of this that I think adds to it even more is the fact that nobody else has said anything about being roleblocked either. Unless somebody else wants to come forward, what this means is Luke either multitasked (reminder that he was the first and only one to bring up mafia multitasking in 998), or mafia didn't roleblock at all in an effort to keep town thinking we had a different setup. In mafia eyes, they shouldn't even have to roleblock Cyrus because if jailor saves him, he gets roleblocked anyways. He insinuates otherwise in 1001, and it doesn't make sense. There's definitely reason to kill or roleblock him, but it's completely superfluous to do both.

Other posts of his that I would like to point out are:

936. Considering he knows he was jailed, he knows the setup, this feels like a threat to the jailkeeper in a "come and try me" kind of way. But then in 938 he goes back to implying that there's just a doctor anyways, and no roleblockers.

999 is when he responds to my point about mass claiming. This is a perfectly reasonable response, but I think coming from a player that simply has a shit ton more information than the rest is a scary prospect. To me this feels like he's already figured out the jailor and just wants to push it another night to kill the power role before mass claim happens.

1002 he turns away from talking about mechanics and brings it back to our regularly scheduled programming, which again, is perfectly reasonable. But again we need to remember that he has more information than the rest of us. And I also feel like Luke isn't the kind of player to completely gloss over something like this. He's been very in-depth, very thorough, very particular all game, and this is the one thing that he quickly pushed through. He quickly insinuates "yeah I guess that there could be a jailor (he knows there is) but that's not important let's get back to business."

Now, is there a possibility that Luke is town and my power saved him? Of course there is. That's just the nature of the role. But that doesn't explain why he's deliberately trying to convince the rest of us that that's not the case.

The case in which Luke is town requires mafia to target Luke as well, and what would be the motive for that? Well, iirc most of us in day 1 were at least town leaning on Luke, and he has been a big asset in progressing the game forward, so it's understandable that mafia would see him as a threat. The issue that I have with this is that Cyrus apparently didn't even get roleblocked. It doesn't make sense to me that they would leave a known* power role open entirely, not targeting or roleblocking.

I might have more thoughts on the matter, but I'm currently going in circles about it, so I need to take a break and come back to it later with fresh eyes once everyone else has had a chance to comment.

All I know right now is that I can't sit here and watch you guys say "Luke is safe, Luke is town, Luke is off the table for today" when I know that something is going on with him.

VOTE: Lukewarm