Newbie 2066: Gelato 2 -- End!

[sang froid]

Hello all, sure is nice when you roll PR huh? Who shall I check on tonight, I wonder

[sang froid]

The famous Mannerist Buontalenti Grotto in the Boboli Gardens.

Like many Renaissance artists, Bernardo Buontalenti was a renaissance man. He was born in Florence and went into service of the Medicis before he entered adulthood. He was a sculptor, painter, architect, mechanic and mathematician.

Objection! This is clearly

not

Gelato!

[sang froid]

Hello all, sure is nice when you roll PR huh? Who shall I check on tonight, I wonder

No, no, no.
Whoever the prs are never ever claim unless someone has declared intent to hammer and it's E-1.

sounds like you're a scumbag afraid of being busted, compadre

[sang froid]

Rqs:

1. What is your mafia experience?

2. Are you mafia, or town?

3. Favorite gelato flavor?

(1) extensive

(2) obviously scum

(3) there's only one true choice here, which is stracciatella

[sang froid]

I'm not a newbie lol

[sang froid]

VOTE: rockhopper

[sang froid]

Hello all, sure is nice when you roll PR huh? Who shall I check on tonight, I wonder

VOTE: sang froi
Works better as PR bait imo

Hello all, sure is nice when you roll PR huh? Who shall I check on tonight, I wonder

VOTE: sang froi
Works better as PR bait imo

yeah seriously wth
VOTE: sang froi

How much you wanna bet one of these two is scum

[sang froid]

I personally still think that rockhopper is a bit more likely but if not humble seems a safe bet

Not sure if I like T3 this game yet or not. Almost a little too breezy and I still think that anyone initiating RQS is sus until proven otherwise

[sang froid]

No idea on GIF yet but not sure if that’s a fight I’m in the mood to have yet

Clasko, Roden, vax all seem fine for now

[sang froid]

{clasko, Roden, vax}

GIF, johnny

T3

{Rockhopper, jumble} — but probably only one of these, I’m not sure Jumble is bold enough to try to bandwagon directly after his buddy

[sang froid]

No, 32 was majorly scummy

Whats wrong with my reaction to my wagon?

[sang froid]

Ehh majorly scummy is probably an overstatement

“By far the pingiest thing to happen thus far this game”

[sang froid]

No, 32 was majorly scummy

Whats wrong with my reaction to my wagon?

Your reads that followed felt panicky and manufactured

why

This is a meaningless thing to say by itself, substantiate your points

[sang froid]

I didn't really like the joke pocket either but it's nothing to build any kind of case with.

Sang isn't pinging me atm, I think his "panic" feels more like bewilderment tbh

firstly, okay but how about it being worth a vote if you don’t have something more useful to do with yours rn? and secondly, what about rockhopper’s very lazy hop onto me and then equally trying-to-look-like-there’s-thought-behind-his-reads-but-not-really vote and explanation for said vote on me

Secondly, interesting-to-weird take — what in my posting sounds like bewilderment to you?

[sang froid]

Okay if I’m right on rockhopper then T3 is town

[sang froid]

I don't like wagoning on Day 1,

it gives me zero information

and doesn't give me much room to pressure somebody else if they start pinging me. I like to let others wagon since it gives me more info on the game state. E-3, E-2, and E-1 votes are extremely telling and are what I'm going to be basing a lot of my reads on.

How does it not provide information? Surely it gives you information of a different sort, and how does it stop you pressuring anyone if you want to change your vote? You’re not beholden to keep voting on a wagon just because you did once?

And additionally, how is vanity voting someone (which is exerting very little pressure and is therefore unlikely to provide much information alone) better than helping put the squeeze on someone?

Also, why do you think E-3, E-2, and E-1 votes are especially important? Why are those more indicative of alignment fypov than wagon leaders or hammer votes?

[sang froid]

As for me being aggressive— yeah, sure, that’s not inaccurate but it’s more because I’m not particularly worried about getting limmed today and less about any level of confusion on my part. I was expecting to potentially pick up votes for my entrance because it was artificially scummy but I have every faith in myself to demonstrate that I’m town vía how I approach the game

[sang froid]

Do you seriously think a (supposedly) experienced player like sang would just claim pr as scum knowing full well it will get everyone's attention?

That's just wifom. He wouldn't really worry if he's experienced.

Not totally wrong, but off-base. If I’m scum... yeah maybe i decide to do some wifom PR bait shit but there’s always at least a couple of town who will read things at the most surface level and think “oh, yeah, that must be scum! They’re PR hunting!” Which is not necessarily problematic for me as scum, but it does draw attention that I just don’t need, and the risk of some towny deciding this is OMG THE MOST SCUMMY THING EVER and having them tunnel me.

Besides which, I don’t really need to do this to PR hunt if I’m scum because, as you noted yourself, I have experience. So there’s a decent amount of downside and no significant upside that I can’t get in other ways. So why does it make sense for me as scum?

[sang froid]

No, 32 was majorly scummy

Whats wrong with my reaction to my wagon?

Your reads that followed felt panicky and manufactured

why

This is a meaningless thing to say by itself, substantiate your points

Well, firstly I think your read about there being 1 scum for sure in {me, Jumble} is manufactured because the "PR bait" arg wasn't all that bad. It seems equivalent to just throwing shade at a random pair of players even though there's a better(>50%) chance that neither are scum from town!you's perspective, which is scummy because that's something the mafia would do to appear towny. Secondly, your paranoia with those chances doesn't add up with your three unsubstantiated townreads. Vax, worst of all.

Already covered this in my last post — the PR bait argument is bad lol, in that it’s a very surface level way of looking at the game. If I’m scum one of my priorities is to make myself look as town as possible. Entering that way doesn’t really help towards that end and isn’t significantly useful in PR hunting vs just... doing that normally?

And it’s not random, because I can make the reasonable inference from having played quite a lot of games that in a newbie game in particular it’s likely that there will be at least one newbie who jumps on the “OMG PR HUNTING” bait without really considering whether that makes sense for me to do as scum. It’s still possible that that’s you, and jumble is the scum, but aorn that’s not the way I’m leaning. Because then the thing that it’s very easy for scum to do is see a towny pushing that argument and think “hmm, yeah, sang did something scummy, I can sheep on that!” And to slip onto the wagon without really considering it beyond the fact it

looks

like an opening that can be pushed easily, and I think the scum who did that is you.

How does any of this apply to my TRs which are broadly independent of the gambit? Vax admittedly could maybe be scum but I tend to think that trying to vote me without feeling any need to bother justifying it leans town esp as I think 1 scum in you/jumble is more likely and I sort of doubt that both scum get on me that quickly. Could be wrong, but not particularly worried about it right now and not interested in exploring there over continuing to get votes on you and/or jumble

[sang froid]

rockhopper as town

Why?

Guess I’m interested in T3 too, but less so

[sang froid]

With that said this game is really slow tbh

I’m still warming up, gimme a couple of days

[sang froid]

- #104: That's really scummy? I'm not seeing it here. This just sounds like a good explanation.

Yeh, rockhoppper keeps doing this, sheep me and I’ll give you townpoints tomorrow when he flips scum

[sang froid]

Why exactly did you decide to enter like that?

because i felt like it?

I don’t normally overthink my openings and just do whatever I like, sometimes more conservative sometimes bolder. In this case it’s on the bolder side and I’m p sure it baited scum (you) into thinking you had an easy target lol

[sang froid]

I don't like wagoning on Day 1,

it gives me zero information

and doesn't give me much room to pressure somebody else if they start pinging me. I like to let others wagon since it gives me more info on the game state. E-3, E-2, and E-1 votes are extremely telling and are what I'm going to be basing a lot of my reads on.

How does it not provide information? Surely it gives you information of a different sort, and how does it stop you pressuring anyone if you want to change your vote? You’re not beholden to keep voting on a wagon just because you did once?

And additionally, how is vanity voting someone (which is exerting very little pressure and is therefore unlikely to provide much information alone) better than helping put the squeeze on someone?

Also, why do you think E-3, E-2, and E-1 votes are especially important? Why are those more indicative of alignment fypov than wagon leaders or hammer votes?

Me putting my vote on a wagon means one less person is putting their vote on a wagon. When people vote, they're making their reads, suspicions, and alliances clear. I want to know who wants to put the most pressure on an E-2 wagon, and I literally cannot figure that out if I do it myself.

My "vanity" vote isn't a vanity vote at all if anyone else agrees with it. As much as you want

me

to vote with you,

you

are completely welcome to vote with me as well. You said you believed Jumble was scummy as well, so why focus on pressuring just Rock? It's not like I gave him a free pass, I've had plenty to say about him so far.

I think E-x votes are more AI because that's exactly where scum want to put their votes. Newbscum are terrified of looking suspicious, most aren't brave enough to lead a wagon they know will flip green, and doubly so for hammering a player they know will flip green. Middle votes generally just look and feel safe.

You're playing from an experienced perspective but you're forgetting this game style is specifically for people with little experience.

As for me being aggressive— yeah, sure, that’s not inaccurate but it’s more because I’m not particularly worried about getting limmed today and less about any level of confusion on my part. I was expecting to potentially pick up votes for my entrance because it was artificially scummy but I have every faith in myself to demonstrate that I’m town vía how I approach the game

You have three votes on you. I don't think your strat is working.

Right, but like, that’s applicable to every slot in the game, and the more people who refuse to get involved in wagons the harder it becomes to parse the game overall. Like yes, it’s useful to *you* to gain information playing like that, but it’s also useful for every other town player in the game for you to take such stances and positions on wagons to try and see what’s going on in your head.

And actually what I said was that the initial votes were scummy but that I don’t think there’s more than 1 scum in the two of them, which actually makes me lean jumble as town rn, in consequence of my rockhopper read. And there’s more to wha makes a vanity — yes, you’re voting there, but you’re not really like, canvassing much for votes or trying to make your case on why jumble is the best wagon here, you’re just sort of plopping a vote down and hoping it does something, instead of taking active measures to ensure it does. My argument is that your vote does more for the game by adding some danger through putting scum at e-1 and getting a claim

And ehhh, there’s something in the whole experienced perspective thing but that’s also just a bit too reductive? Think there’s something to the idea that newbscum can be reluctant but there’s daychat and SEs who can coach them, and then there’s newbies on this site who aren’t newbies to mafia, and then there’s just bold newbies. If it was as simple as “middle votes are scummier” the game would be a lot easier

~~

Also, seems to be working fine to me? My preferred wagon just became the leading one and I’m planning to get rock to e-1 by the end of irl today. Votes on me are kind of immaterial and especially as if I’m right then scum!rock doesn’t exactly have any incentive t unvote me lol

[sang froid]

Why exactly did you decide to enter like that?

This question alone gives me newbie town vibes. But at the same time, it conflicts with your earlier posts.

My only guess is that they were checking for reactions. That's why they're scum reading you and Jumble.

No, I asked because he's aware that there's always at least a couple of town who would read at the most surface level. I don't think the wagon with me/Jumble warrants a strong reaction with that kind of uncertainty, especially in a newbie game. That entrance does work better as PR bait because newbie PR reactions are much more noticeable, meaning there can be a significant amount of upside. The truth of his reasoning for why the downside outweighs the upside contradicts itself, leaving just a plain anti-town entrance, justifying the wagon on him.

It's more likely a part of his scum agenda because he buries wifom with more wifom while tunneling down on me/Jumbo for being

surface level

.
Idk why this kind of play would come from experienced town.

Point is that scum want to sheep onto a viable wagon to give the illusion of scumhunting. And like, how is certainty relevant? I have a model of what I expect from scum, which is that they want to look town. How do you look town? You try to look like you’re looking for scum. But then there’s a level missing which is that scum often just think “oh yeah, that looks bad, I can push that” and hop onto the thing. Now *sometimes* (more than is wonderful) town do that too but town are more likely to think about *why* person x did the thing and the answer of “oh scum are just trying to WIFOM or look too scummy to be scum” is rarely a satisfying answer because, again, a lot of the time it’s not worth the trouble of the risk of getting limmed

For me to decide that’s my best option as scum, I have to figure that (1) I’ll get useful info on who’s a PR (2) I’ll be able to fend off the negative attention it’s liable to bring easily and (3) I probably have to think that I won’t be able to find the PRs without it/that it will be significantly more difficult. None of those things really sync with what I’ve done other than admittedly I don’t generally worry about getting limmed on D1.

So that leaves me needing to think I’ll get useful info which — maybe! But this doesn’t fit with... the fact that newbie PRs are like fairly notoriously not great at hiding? So it makes it unnecessary for me to do as scum.

Feel like you’re having to try to fit the facts into the narrative you want instead of looking for the explanation that makes most sense which is that I’m town who felt like doing that and then leveraged the reactions into reads. Whereas your conjecture requires me being scum doing some cost/benefit analysis of how likely I am to get PRs outed vs whether that even helps me a lot considering general ease vs whether it’s worth looking scummy intentionally just for WIFOM vs how easily I can dismiss negative attention and it’s just... like nah fam

Also, I’m not tunnelled? Yes I want you dead but I’m not like certain you’re scum, that’s just my best guess, which I can’t do much more than

[sang froid]

Do you have a reads list sang?

its broadly the same as last time only I think now I TR jumble, partly off his own posting partly because I still think rock has good equity

also T3 has gone up so it's like

roden, clasko, you, jumble

T3
--townline
GIF, Johnny
--scumline
rockhopper

but I will say that one of my TRs is one I have misgivings with that might flip to a SR but I want to keep that under wraps for a bit while I see what the slot does as game goes on

[sang froid]

yo T3, what in GiF's posting has pinged you as town?

[sang froid]

ahh, sorry ffery, I've just been busy!

I'm kinda prod dodging bc I need a little bit more time to think about what's been happening

one possibility is GIF/rock where GIF's outed his reads to try and save the slot

on the other hand I was kind of second guessing myself on rockhopper anyway, so I may have just been wrong

I'll post more substantively tomo

[sang froid]

VOTE: vax

[sang froid]

who cares

[sang froid]

also we don't use "lynch" anymore

[sang froid]

y

[sang froid]

Post 116 I would never ever see coming from scum

y

[sang froid]

Also, Sang, has your read on Rock changed over the past few days?

eh I'm ambivalent, so I guess that's a yes

could still see rock!scum but can also see rock!town. maintain that if rock!scum then GIF is a likely partner, but if not then GIF occasionally has decent reads but more than that vax's attempts to spin 116 as being a townslip or as being strongly +town hits me as wrong, as does the assertion that he's obvtown from a page ago

and it doesn't feel like town that's utterly indignant about being read wrong

[sang froid]

My reads are pretty accurate most of the time actually.

When you bother to actually read the game and don’t just sheep, I guess

[sang froid]

Hm, turns out I’m still more irritated with GiF than I thought I would be

I’ll try to forget about it though

[sang froid]

Level with me jumble, are you scum? You’re increasingly beginning to feel like scum

[sang froid]

it's because I haven't been so present the last few days since I repped in, it's very normal

[sang froid]

Are you still keeping this under wraps?

spent a bit considering whether I should answer this, but actually yeah, fuck it, I'll out it: it's Roden

it's a gut thing and I'm not really sure I want to follow it through with a hard push today bc my gut has mixed success when I feel ambivalent, pushing into decent when I feel very strongly about something

but I think that something feels off there, although I can't quite put my finger on what

maybe that I feel like he's taking quite uncontroversial opinions consistently and is making it very clear why he thinks what he thinks etc

the most recent thing that bothered me is the "why are you lying about things that can be confirmed?" which is something that I think often comes from scum when they think town has said something that's like, ambiguously true or in a grey area, and that can be pushed as falsehood

I also found the back-and-forth with me over voting rock weird, I think bc the initial insistence on independence and doing his own thing then came round to getting on board? it almost felt like someone who *wanted* to be persuaded to me, and the fact that he's now also joined on vax is... disquieting

on the other hand, I struggle to read sincere newbie townplay as distinct from newbie scum play (like newbies trying very hard to make sure they're understood and being super logical is something that's more common than in more experienced players I think, who are more likely to act and then explain later)

I think I'm still leaning on a vax lim today, bc I think if vax is scum then that looks good for Roden and this is most likely paranoia from the day taking a while. if vax town then I'll be looking at Roden more closely while I read overnight

[sang froid]

Also idk why ppl are so fixated to scum partners Day 1. It is not helpful on Day 1 because it asserts unnecessary bias in the game state. It's not too late to look for a partner after we flip scum.

yes, so why does it matter if Johnny turns up before we lim or nah

My reads are pretty accurate most of the time actually.

When you bother to actually read the game and don’t just sheep, I guess

You must be an alt who played with me during my peak lazy time lol.
I don't remember when was the last time I sheeped ppl hard though.

also yes, but like I said I'll try to ignore it as being annoyed with you about it doesn't really accomplish anything

[sang froid]

Level with me jumble, are you scum? You’re increasingly beginning to feel like scum

[sang froid]

can we get intent on vax?

[sang froid]

I don't have any experience of scum!GIF but I think it's unlikely that his main game plan involves hardbussing his buddy on D1 so if vax!scum assuming GiF!clear is probably safe

other than that there's too many assumptions being made around wagons, looking specifically at you here @rock

like there may have been scum on your wagon, but equally a town wagon hitting E-1 is not uncommon and if you get too locked onto that assumption it can really fuck you up. it's safer normally in a larger game where wagons have a lot more people on, but 4 town just agreeing on something (especially when it's being pushed ~fairly hard) isn't so odd

that's not to say there can't be scum on it, but like, this shouldn't be the primary reason for it if you end up thinking any of me/roden/clasko/T3 are scum

[sang froid]

eh I don't really care about the perfect D1 solve let's just get this done

[sang froid]

like you can keep canvassing for it if you want but if that's the only reason then I'm still gonna try to get the others to intent vax so we get a claim

[sang froid]

how confident are you on Roden?

I know 293 is a bit rambling but it's a legit concern for me

[sang froid]

T3 we're having words about you handled this afterwards

VOTE: johnny

[sang froid]

@T3 I think this is actually +town for GiF but I won't explain today, sorry

but I think it makes more sense to spare him and go in his SRs BoP style

[sang froid]

I think it's quite compelling and it really doesn't make sense for scum!him to push vax given it

so okay cool

this is actually making me wonder if I should reconsider rockhopper or not

Johnny/clasko isn't a bad pool I guess, although I don't feel so strongly on clasko

Johnny dipping his head in and then... still not doing anything ain't great

[sang froid]

bad luck scum, gg town, thank you for the wonderful modding as always ffery! (I once again enjoyed the flavour a lot!)

[sang froid]

I forgot the cardinal rule which is that when I fakeclaim PR it's normally town who are more suspicious of me and scum who are more conciliatory

whoops