Newbie 2084: Signs [game over!]

[Meuh]

Good morning besties!

I think we all know of the numbers meta, anyone with numbers in their names are scum!

VOTE: Spartan117

Also keeping an eye on you, Cape...

[Meuh]

Wait why did the colour on my vote not work? i need to relearn this website,

got it figured out for now at least

[Meuh]

It's a sine!

VOTE: Meuh

This is a very serious scumread.

:0 how could you? I'm a pure innocent angel

[Meuh]

HELLO EVERYBODY HELLA HYPED AND EXCITED TO BE PLAYING WITH U!!@@!!@@@!!!!

VOTE: Meuh

This is a very serious scumread.

locktown tbh

dropping townreads this early, marci>?? must mean you're trying to pocket (either me or azumarill, i'm not even sure who you're calling locktown)
very suspicious behaviour

[Meuh]

HELLO EVERYBODY HELLA HYPED AND EXCITED TO BE PLAYING WITH U!!@@!!@@@!!!!

VOTE: Meuh

This is a very serious scumread.

locktown tbh

dropping townreads this early, marci>?? must mean you're trying to pocket (either me or azumarill, i'm not even sure who you're calling locktown)
very suspicious behaviour

Usually this behavior is completely NAI and I would argue mostly just comes from town. I dunno what is up with the townread this early either + dunno why you would assume they were pocketing you.

This was a joke and not a legitimate comment about Marci’s alignment, but Idm you looking into it, that’s the point of it anyways, now discussion’s been fuelled a bit more

[Meuh]

Also I mentioned my own name as someone she might be pocketing because I didn’t lnow if she was calling me or Azumarill locktown, I was saying she’s pocketing whoever that is

[Meuh]

do u want to spice it up

In what way?

"speedwagon somebody.."

idk we can either:
-1v1 for no reason
-attack somebody together
ur choice

Why do you expect scum to be a bit nervous?

idk cape90s experience but just in general,
scum are usually worried about their appearances, so i feel like they would be cautious when entering the thread, and a bit nervous abt making the wrong comment. early on people latch onto like anything, so making the wrong comment will be deadly

I think you are looking too deep into me.

yah cuz im trying to get the game started
(like itll prob end up in me being wagoned but idm )

its an early read, it wont hold much weight as more stuff develops

while im aware i usually sus meuh for the weirdest reasons (me and meuh are friends fyi), this post ↓ was 100% serious.

:0 how could you? I'm a pure innocent angel

see u feel

off

already,
u know im the innocent angel

to me it feels weird because i dont remember meuh using "pure innocent angel " much before, as thats typically something i would say.
im not sure if it makes her scum, but it makes her feel

off.

This still doesn't feel like a real read to me.

its a real read bb if u want u can scumread me for making reads out of like nothing.

The bolded part feels odd tbh, why are you suddenly so defensive the second someone makes a negative comment about a read you’re making? Nothing was said about scumreading you, drawing that line yourself reeks of paranoia

[Meuh]

its a real read bb if u want u can scumread me for making reads out of like nothing.

The bolded part feels odd tbh, why are you suddenly so defensive the second someone makes a negative comment about a read you’re making? Nothing was said about scumreading you, drawing that line yourself reeks of paranoia

to me, "not a real read" is something a scum player would do, so im trying to see if he draws that same conclusion...?
what makes it seem defensive..? it was just a casual comment inviting scumreads on me with open arms

The invitation just feels like fake confidence and like I said, they never said they scumread you, so it came out of nowhere. I can easily see scum make that post in an attempt to posture as a confident townie willing to die, yknow? I think you have a fair point with the not a real read stuff, it’s too early to be shutting things down like that, we have barely anything to go off of, any hunch is a valid read at this point of the game unless he was saying not real as in he thinks you’re being disingenuous? Which would be fine to put out there and push on

[Meuh]

Seems like we've escaped the random voting scene so I need to take a few moments to digest the scene which I haven't had enough time to do properly yet.

Man I feel old when new terms come into play that are new to me... when did "locktown" become a thing... haha

Anyhow, I'd love to get a feel for the experience of our newer players if you'd like to intro that a bit for those of you who haven't, that would be great.

Sure! This is my fifth game onsite, all of which have been in the newbie queue (gonna be graduating from being a newbie after this )
I have a bit of experience with online mafia outside of here (been playing for almost a 2 years now i think?) although all of it in a much shorter format (24h/24h day/night cycles typically, some even 12h/12h, longest format I've played outside of MS was 72h/24h), haven't played at all in several months though and generally not much in the past year with newbie 2063 being my latest actual game.

[Meuh]

The invitation just feels like fake confidence and like I said, they never said they scumread you, so it came out of nowhere. I can easily see scum make that post in an attempt to posture as a confident townie willing to die, yknow?

mmmhmm yeah ic
why no vote pressure if u see that as scummy..?

I'd rather pressure someone who hasn't said a word yet, infighting amongst the active players would just reward not being present and allow potential scum to hide out in inactivity, so my vote stays where it is

[Meuh]

Funny how you all are suggesting MegAzumarill when I was thinking the same thing. Just feels like they have been putting off doing anything useful this game at all and are using 36 as a sort of cover (even if this isn't the case, I still dislike this post).

The other person is Mueh because fundamentally 43 seems counter intuitive in, well, trying to solve the game, at least early on.
Though I sort of like 34 from Mueh as I find it at the very least a good post so they can stay.

VOTE: MegAzumarill

What makes you think 43 is counterintuitive? While it doesn’t further too much regarding those who have spoken, getting people who haven’t to talk is productive

[Meuh]

It's a personal policy to not start scumhunting till we are certain there are actually scum playing

Nothing that has happened so far has really warranted anything yet though

Well that’s the thing, us discussing is how we create things we can then discuss and read each other off of. I don’t think we should start wagons until all have spoken, but there’s no reason not to throw in some smaller scale reads and create the basic playing field we need to obtain to become productive as a town

[Meuh]

UNVOTE:

Spartan/Prism

since the slot’s said something now

[Meuh]

It's a personal policy to not start scumhunting till we are certain there are actually scum playing

Nothing that has happened so far has really warranted anything yet though

Well that’s the thing, us discussing is how we create things we can then discuss and read each other off of. I don’t think we should start wagons until all have spoken, but there’s no reason not to throw in some smaller scale reads and create the basic playing field we need to obtain to become productive as a town

I agree it's probably objectively bad for town but as a player I typically do 1 of 2 things.

1 Form reads slowly but have confidence in them
2 Jump on someone that I think is scummy early and death tunnel them forever (ask Greeting)

More interestingly I would like to know why Greeting/Cape think my behavior is AI.

Agreed on that last line, while I don’t approach the game like you do, your posts do read to me more based on a personal belief about how the game should be played and less a mafia member trying to slow the town down

On that note I’d like to know why Marci threw your name out there in the first place?

[Meuh]

The way Greeting has approached the whole Meg thing rubs me the wrong way tbh, don’t like it

[Meuh]

(I'm aware Marci voiced why she voted Meg already, but I'd just like elaboration basically)

Okay, so Greeting's 51 and 54 are both suspicious to me. Greeting never actually voices suspicion for Meg in... any of these posts. The justification seems to be just to get a wagon down and because he had a tough time with Meg in a past game? The focus is put on the amount of votes that would be on Meg if a wagon was to initiate instead of actually saying much regarding Meg as a player or why he even wants to vote for him, then seems to use Cape voting for Meg as a way to segue into also jumping on it?
The way Greeting collaborates with Marci and Cape on this whole thing just gives off vibes of scum trying to be buddies with other players by focusing on a common target, don't like it.
The focus on the creation of/the logistics of a wagon just seems like opportunistic scum. Marci made a joke, Greeting replied to it seriously, and then with Marci's answer that mentions Meg, he just decided to start a push. Scum want to get the target on another player ASAP so it's not on them, Greeting could very much be doing that here.
Those messages feel unnatural, opportunistic and focused on the wrong things and because of this I'll go ahead and VOTE:

Greeting

. Everyone's spoken, so I'll put my vote where my mind is at

adding VOTE: greeting for the vote counter ~D

[Meuh]

The invitation just feels like fake confidence and like I said, they never said they scumread you, so it came out of nowhere. I can easily see scum make that post in an attempt to posture as a confident townie willing to die, yknow?

mmmhmm yeah ic
why no vote pressure if u see that as scummy..?

I'd rather pressure someone who hasn't said a word yet, infighting amongst the active players would just reward not being present and allow potential scum to hide out in inactivity, so my vote stays where it is

I do like the idea of this post being that focus should be brought to an inactive slot, but I prefer pressuring people who are active to get a good grasp on their slot, and get a good read going.

EBWOP (I hate my grammar sometimes)

Generally I think that pressuring active players favors town and inactive players should really be pressured if the active players are acting town. Essentially sort the easiest to read players and poe the rest

That's fair, I think sometimes (including this game) I subconsciously approach things more as "find the scum!" than "get a good grasp on each player's alignment!" which can lead to me just generally holding sentiments that kinda lean that way, that's something I've noticed and I'm trying to get better with.
I tend to view votes (when not actively working to elim someone) more as tools to pressure scum so they somehow blunder or act more suspiciously than as something that can also lead to building more accurate reads on someone because of this, so seeing them as a way to narrow POE is not something that crosses my mind all that much, if any of this makes sense?

[Meuh]

VOTE:

Greeting

. Everyone's spoken, so I'll put my vote where my mind is at

please do not colour in your votes like this, because for some reason they break the vote counter.

4 pages in and I've already broken the vote counter probably something to do with there being extra text within the vote
My bad! Won't do it again, will find some other way to use the cute pink

[Meuh]

Then again, there is one RVS at MegAzumarill right now. With me and you counted in, he will be put at E-2 immediately. Are you sure about that?

I actually misread the vote tally. It’s MegAzumarill who is voting Meuh, not the opposite. Which makes this even safer as even with three votes they will still only be at E-2, not E-1.

mm yeah, putting people at e-2 isnt too bad of a thing i think..? as long as we would make it obv. we could always unvote if it looks like some people are setting up for a quick hammer as well.
i agree with (i forgot who said this, but them ), why are u so worried about numbers..? e-1 is where we should be sweating, but if u scumread someone or think somethings helpful, whats bad about putting them to e-2..?

Funny how you all are suggesting MegAzumarill when I was thinking the same thing. Just feels like they have been putting off doing anything useful this game at all and are using 36 as a sort of cover (even if this isn't the case, I still dislike this post).

"you all" it was just me suggesting it LOL

its true they've been putting off doing anything useful, while i do see the points about this just being their general playstyle.. it also isn't really that helpful? it would be tricky to find out if theyre scum or not if they just keep going "yeah thats my playstyle" its a good place to pressure at least, but i wouldn't condemn them so early for it.

The other person is Mueh because fundamentally 43 seems counter intuitive in, well, trying to solve the game, at least early on.
Though I sort of like 34 from Mueh as I find it at the very least a good post so they can stay.

i also didnt like 43, but im not paying too much attention to it cuz its just boils down to i have a different viewpoint than her.

I’ve been townreading you, Cape90.

can u expand on this more?

On that note I’d like to know why Marci threw your name out there in the first place?

(I'm aware Marci voiced why she voted Meg already, but I'd just like elaboration basically)

i haven't actually voted them, i just threw their name there and dipped lol

the reason i threw their name out there, was partly because i felt like if we were to pressure them, we would get a good response, and hopefully make it easier for others as they join the game to get a few reads. i also felt as if they might be a bit harder for me to read as the game progresses, but like this is backed up on nothing except pure vibes.

69 is good soup.

Oh and I forgot to do this again.

VOTE: marcistar

Time to start with people I absolutely don't think I know.

hi, hru, got any thoughts?

marcistar can you give an estimate of how accurate you think that is? Or, I'd kind of like to see where that idea comes from, so can you provide an example?

I meant how accurate do you feel the read about nervousness is.

it depends on experience i think, though its not too damning since theres other reasons why someone could be nervous.
the easiest example i could think of rn is an offsite example so sadly u wouldn't see the actual proof. i dont go scouring thru random games, but im sure it happens here too.

Fair point, it is true that even if it's a playstyle thing, we should be pressuring players who aren't putting constructive content out; I was more so criticizing Cape's point since he seems to view it as suspicious (and it will be if Meg just refuses to put out reads, but from what they've said they're gonna be posting some later on once the game's developed a bit more)

My bad, mispoke

I agree with you on that vibe honestly, the way Meg's approaching the game and the tone they've been adopting makes me feel like they'll be someone hard to read long-term, which is a scary prospect.

[Meuh]

Scattered commentary/questions I had:

The [marcistar's] invitation just feels like fake confidence and like I said, they never said they scumread you, so it came out of nowhere. I can easily see scum make that post in an attempt to posture as a confident townie willing to die, yknow?

I can see this applying to a generalized userbase, but leveraging your personal knowledge of marcistar-do you think she makes such an attempt as scum?

Let's say I do. Who is your choice and why?

prob meg, since I wanna solve them and I feel like it might be more benefical to do it earlier on.

Can you elaborate on why for both of these statements?

UNVOTE:

Spartan/Prism

since the slot’s said something now

My response was just a player intro, completely lacking in game commentary and a vote. I just replaced in so of course I would post eventually-it's the game content you should be waiting for.

Not too sure, haven't played a game with mafia!Marci (or with Marci at all) since last April, I could reread that game to try to see how she plays at scum? But then I'd also need to read a towngame of hers to actually see what she does

out of the norm

as scum. I've proven on multiple occasions that having played with Marci before doesn't actually end up with me making better reads on her sadly not sure if should try meta reading her because honestly I've always been further off doing it than without
my statement was more based on general patterns I notice than anything specific to Marci

I thought she already did here in post 89?

On that note I’d like to know why Marci threw your name out there in the first place?

(I'm aware Marci voiced why she voted Meg already, but I'd just like elaboration basically)

i haven't actually voted them, i just threw their name there and dipped lol
the reason i threw their name out there, was partly because i felt like if we were to pressure them, we would get a good response, and hopefully make it easier for others as they join the game to get a few reads. i also felt as if they might be a bit harder for me to read as the game progresses, but like this is backed up on nothing except pure vibes.

Did you want a more in depth explanation?

Well sure, that's true. You had promised content though, and felt as if since you'd committed to that, I could unvote and see if there was a better place for it, I could always just vote for you again if you didn't deliver content

[Meuh]

Greeting's at E-2, no one else jump on the wagon, E-2 isn't risky but E-1 could be exploited by scum

[Meuh]

Greeting's at E-2, no one else jump on the wagon, E-2 isn't risky but E-1 could be exploited by scum

I can't help but notice that... you're also on that wagon.

I assume that you're voting me out because you think I'm scum. But if I'm scum, then how exactly is my partner going to exploit this wagon?
And if you don't want to vote me out then why are you on my wagon, may I ask?

With this post you sound like someone who wants to sound like a genuine newbie, but what you said doesn't really make any sense. Unless you're doing something similar to what I'm doing with MegAzumarill's wagon.

I think you're the player most likely to be mafia, but it's a page 6 read, I'm not confident in it. You could be town and I wouldn't be too shocked.
Also, there's no benefit to not being careful here! Another thing to consider would be time as a resource, spending more time today talking will benefit us long term, there's no reason to want you hammered this early, even if I knew 100% that you were maf.

I am doing something similar to what you're doing with Meg's wagon but you'll notice 2 things:
-It's not the focal points of the posts I made before voting for you (which it was for you before voting for Meg, while I casted actual suspicion before voting)
-I'm scared about E-1, not E-2, which I think is something scum could actually take advantage of here. They'd throw in a vote on you, say it was an accidental hammer and move on, it's something mafia could try to do here and I'd rather not deal with something of the sort.

So no, I don't want you to be hammered here, I think it'd be bad.

[Meuh]

I do agree that Meg should actually justify their vote, don't see why they wouldn't, a bit weird

[Meuh]

Greeting's at E-2, no one else jump on the wagon, E-2 isn't risky but E-1 could be exploited by scum

I can't help but notice that... you're also on that wagon.

I assume that you're voting me out because you think I'm scum. But if I'm scum, then how exactly is my partner going to exploit this wagon?
And if you don't want to vote me out then why are you on my wagon, may I ask?

With this post you sound like someone who wants to sound like a genuine newbie, but what you said doesn't really make any sense. Unless you're doing something similar to what I'm doing with MegAzumarill's wagon.

I think you're the player most likely to be mafia, but it's a page 6 read, I'm not confident in it. You could be town and I wouldn't be too shocked.
Also, there's no benefit to not being careful here! Another thing to consider would be time as a resource, spending more time today talking will benefit us long term, there's no reason to want you hammered this early, even if I knew 100% that you were maf.

I am doing something similar to what you're doing with Meg's wagon

but you'll notice 2 things:
-It's not the focal points of the posts I made before voting for you (which it was for you before voting for Meg, while I casted actual suspicion before voting)
-I'm scared about E-1, not E-2, which I think is something scum could actually take advantage of here. They'd throw in a vote on you, say it was an accidental hammer and move on, it's something mafia could try to do here and I'd rather not deal with something of the sort.

So no, I don't want you to be hammered here, I think it'd be bad.

Okay, so if you are testing something, then what is it that you're testing?

You really barely answered any of my questions.

That's not what I meant. I thought you were saying me making sure it didn't go to E-1 was similar to what you did in the Meg wagon, which it was in some ways. I don't have a secret plan, although there's the benefit of looking for reactions when starting a wagon, ProHawk and Meg jumping on is something interesting to look at.

What do you want me to answer exactly? I think I misinterpreted your original question to some extent but still, I don't know what you're wanting me to elaborate on.

[Meuh]

I'll re-ISO Greeting, haven't done much to reevaluate my read on him since I placed my vote

[Meuh]

Meuh is an interesting case, I don't think they are S/S (scum partners) with greeting. I could see town!meuh and scum!greeting or vice versa. I'd like to hear more from the slot and don't want to lim them today.



This leaves a pool of AzuStuckey, greeting, Prohawk lims for today.

I'm currently mentally preparing to ISO a bunch of people and drop a readslist later tonight instead of just ISOing Greeting, so you should have some more of that juicy juicy content like you got in 69. (Might end up procrastinating and not doing it, but I'll try my best to )

[Meuh]

Meuh is an interesting case, I don't think they are S/S (scum partners) with greeting. I could see town!meuh and scum!greeting or vice versa. I'd like to hear more from the slot and don't want to lim them today.



This leaves a pool of AzuStuckey, greeting, Prohawk lims for today.

I'm currently mentally preparing to ISO a bunch of people and drop a readslist later tonight instead of just ISOing Greeting, so you should have some more of that juicy juicy content like you got in 69. (Might end up procrastinating and not doing it, but I'll try my best to )

It's really not a matter of the content you are posting or the amount, but it leans on paranoia so it's probably best not to discuss.

Well, hopefully I'll end up quenching your desire for knowledge

[Meuh]

Alright, time for the readslist I promised (a bit later than I said, but it's okay ) ! Here's the system I use:

Spoiler:

[TTT] - Confirmed town
[TT] - Very strong townread
[/TT] - Strong townread
[T] - Townread
[/T] - Townlean
[//T] - Slight townlean
[/] - Neutral
[//M] - Slight mafialean
[/M] - Mafialean
[M] - Mafiaread
[/MM] - Strong mafiaread
[MM] - Very strong mafiaread
[MMM] - Confirmed maf

AsuStuckey [/]

~ 44 doesn't seem AI to me, I suppose 165 looks slightly good just because some of the questions Asu asked in it could've just been asked in the mafia thread if they're maf, but I don't think it means too much. We have 2 posts to go off of, so I don't feel strongly on this slot.

Cape90 [/T]

~ Cape's general tone feels good early. 15 gives off laid back townie energy, 16 feels like it's trying to progress the game and so does 27 and 37. Kinda hard to put into exact words but I just can't picture mafia making these posts?
53 is an okay post and I don't have a hard time believing Cape thought of voting for Meg before they were brought up. However, with Cape basing the reads on the way Meg and I both approach the game; it feels a bit more like it could be easily manufactured by mafia than other reads that have been put out. I think mafia have an easier time faking reads based on people's playstyles and the way they fundamentally view the game than on things like tone, so I could see mafia Cape make that post.
I don't really like 82, once again it's focused on stuff like "should we pressure inactives?" instead of reads and I don't think it furthered the game much.

"55 - At least 1 scum has spoken by this point and that is a fact. And that last line scares me and justifies my vote on you, thanks!"

really rubs me the wrong way and what Cape says there is inaccurate, at post 55, it wasn't confirmed that a mafia had spoken but Cape makes it sound like it. The way Cape responds to Meg's 64 feels opportunistic and rooted in confirmation bias. It feels like Cape's actively looking for extra reason to cast suspicion on Meg instead of actually trying to make his read more accurate. Could come from town, but more often comes from scum.
147, 149 and 152 all don't feel too productive. 152 once again feels like Cape is misrepresenting events, as Marci wasn't "trying to get Greeting in on the action", Greeting's the one who asked for her to throw out a name, she was prompted to by him in the first place.
These posts are followed by more productive content soon after, so it doesn't feel like Cape made those 3 posts just to have content out there and then leave.
155 feels pretty good, although Cape's criticism of Prohawk's 125 feels a bit weird with him just having made 149, which to me is a very similar post. It is true though that Prohawk in a general sense has been less helpful than Cape, however.
156 is a good post, feels relevant and someone actively trying to be useful.
183 I also like, can't see scum post that, really.
187 is a good point, neat.
Cape's early and later posts I tend to like, but the ones in the middle are a bit odd to me, so leantown is how I feel at this point.

Greeting [T]

~ I definitely needed to take another look at Greeting since the bulk of my read on him lied on only 2 of his 33 posts. Nothing from Greeting sticks out to me until 46. At first that post seemed weird to me and I was wondering why he was responding seriously when Marci didn't seem entirely serious, but why would scum do so? It's an aggressive play that furthers discussion and I kind of like it.
The entire interaction at 48 feels townie on Greeting's end.
51 and 54, the posts that made me scumread him in the first place. The focus on hammer distance feels much less weird with the whole secret plan thing Greeting apparently had planned and honestly I think I believe it. Both of those posts make sense with the idea of Greeting trying some sort of secret plan to get information, and I have no clue why Greeting would be doing something so clearly sneaky and aggressive as scum here. The main thing I still do dislike about that sequence of posts is how Greeting states clearly he townreads Cape before voting for Meg. It still feels off to me and doesn't tie into the whole secret plan thing (or at least I don't think so?)
91 feels genuine and not anything scum would be attempting here.
116 is weird, but probably is some sort of way Greeting is trying to get more information out of his wagon on Meg.
The tone of 122 feels bad, although I could see it come from an annoyed townie not really sure why they're being pushed in the first place (which is supported by 120 and 123)
126 feels annoyed more than nervous which is something I like. I can very much see town!Greeting make this post. The bit about Meg's vote specifically I find reads very much like something a townie would be writing.
130 seems to involve some amount of miscommunication as I've already said. Aside from that, Greeting's still displaying annoyance at me that's consistent with the tone he's adapting. He doesn't feel my vote's justified and he doesn't feel like I'm addressing his questions properly. It's a decent post.
131 I like him mentioning the wagon again and promising results, just feels more so as if he truly had good intentions in starting the wagon.
141's a bit weird but I don't mind too much I guess.
143 is still maintaining trying to understand why he's being pushed because of how he feels it's unjustified and unexplained. Once again, it's focused on understanding the suspicions before making a defense. It just looks townie to me.
154 is fine.
161 and 164 are posts I could see come from either alignment, Greeting could be maf here trying to just make Meg look dumb, or it could just once again be an extension of annoyance at the wagon on him.
181 makes sense with what Greeting's posted before.
The tone of Greeting's posts after being pushed I suppose could be from annoyed scum, but I think is more likely coming from town feeling he's being pushed for baseless reasons and that this wagon on him is ruining the results he was trying to get earlier from his push earlier.
On a reread, Greeting's content before the posts that I disliked leans towards town, the posts I don't like are neutral I suppose and everything after leans towards town, so that's where my read is at this point. Maybe since I was rereading and was already scumreading him, it caused me to look for townie behavior and now I confirmation biased myself into a townread, but I have a hard time thinking Greeting's scum at this point.

marcistar [/T]

~ First few posts feel kinda NAI for Marci, 22 and 23 are both helpful though and it is true that I don't call myself an innocent angel much and it's terminology Marci prefers!
Most of 29 feel like a good mix of joking and developing reads, it's helpful. Still feel the last bit of the post is a bit defensive, but I don't feel too strongly about it.
I like the first line of 33, the second one still has a defensive tone I don't like, though.
42 is fine, I particularly like the line where she mentions being scared of being pocketed, I don't think that's the kind of thing that crosses mafia members' minds that often.
49 makes sense and seems like it probably comes from a townie mentality.
89 I also like.
104, 136 and 182 all just don't seem to have much to them. I'd love more in depth/updated reads from Marci, I don't feel she's voiced her opinion on players much in a while, all 3 of those posts are very passive.

MegAzumarill [/M]

~ 6, 9 and 35 I don't feel strongly on.
36, 39 and 55 are all very meh posts, just talking about how he approaches the game, doesn't further discussion much. 64 and 70 are both actually acknowledging the game we're playing which is neat ig, but Meg doesn't voice their opinion on it, they just ask questions to other people.
71 and 73 are still just about the way he approaches the game. 83 is just Meg lightly defending themselves and asking another question to Greeting.
85 and 86 are just more simple questions, the latter feeling a bit hypocritical considering the content Meg themselves had put out. So does 88
96 just feels empty
119 Meg votes without justifying why, despite having said earlier they think people should give well detailed reasons for their votes
138 is Meg's first post where I actually feel he voices a read, well done! Even then it feels shallow and I would've liked for them to build on it.
139 is decent justification at least
The back-and-forth with Greeting in 140, 142 and 144 is fine, I guess.
151 you barely elaborated on it, come on. Also why are you the one complaining about lack of reads? You're on post 151 and your only read is the one with Greeting who despite you interacting with continously, you fail to provide good reasoning for voting aside from 2 posts that do an okay job at it.
157 and 160 are okay and more reasoning, sure
162 WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!! MEG FINALLY DROPPED ANOTHER READ!!!! not a very in depth one, but wow!! a decent read from Meg!! Impressive!!
166 has some more reads, sorting a few people is nice. Would like to hear Meg's thoughts on Cape though.
I like the point made at the bottom of 168.
I'm fine with 172.
I like 174, the paranoia thing feels more so like something town would say.
177 is good content.
I like the vote in 179, although I feel it may be an attempt to to bring people's attention elsewhere and to be buddy buddy with Prism, who was already voting Hawk,
Don't know if you could tell, but I got very annoyed reading this ISO. Meg says people should justify their votes well, then doesn't do so. Meg complains about people not posting game relevant content while their posting was devoid of game relevance and focused on talking about their approach of the game and how it should be played over actual reads or significant stances on the current game. It gets a bit better near the end, but I don't think the emptiness of Meg's posts can be justified just by playstyle. It's a frustrating read because Meg's posts just feel so meaningless, I understand why Greeting was annoyed with them lmao. The read on Greeting doesn't feel particularly natural to me, either and the other reads feel very easy to manufacture.

Prism [/T]

~ Okay, 58 I don't read as town or maf.
92 is some good little reads to start off, cool, I also like the pressure for Meg to drop reads.
93 are some standard questions.
97 and 101 both feel like posts from someone trying to solve the game honestly, I like them a bit.
102 I feel pretty neutral on
103 the "players outgrowing metareads" point is fairly interesting and once again feels like it'd be stated by someone who's trying to solve the game and I like the way it's built upon in 105 and 106.
111 is nice, natural pressure on Hawk.
112 is fine.
133 just feels natural and good.
The piles in 137 make a whole lot of sense and the justification in 158 and 159 I also think is good.
The way she responds to Meg in 175 and 178 looks like town reasoning to me.
I don't have much constructive to say on this slot honestly which you've probably realized by my shallow analysis, her posts feel natural and well reasoned enough, but I'm not that confident on Prism's alignment. I feel like my brain's not big enough to actually do good analysis of her content

ProHawk [/M]

~ 40 is fine as an intro, getting people to introduce themselves is nice!
I don't like 108, however. The reads on Marci and I feel easy to fabricate, the slight doubt on Prism for having voted him also does. In addition, it feels odd to have Hawk just... not mention Meg in the post at all, considering that:
-Hawk was casting a vote against Greeting, who had just launched a wagon on Meg.
-Meg was also engaging in the same "questions without follow-up" type of posts that Hawk used to justify his vote on Greeting.
I get the impression here that Hawk, if scum, just wanted to get something on board, threw together some standard reads and avoided the Meg wagon since it'd be too complex to address and passively jumped on the Greeting wagon. It's harder to see a town member make this post.
Hawk also engages in the same behavior he's supposedly voting Greeting for in 125.
124 is just bad justification for reads, I don't think "level of interaction" is a good thing to base reads off of, really?
109, 110, 125 and 129 all don't have much substance.

Strangematter [//M]

~ So, 67 and 68 are both just the inactive discussion.
76 and 78 just ask Marci a pretty basic question.
87 just also shades a post already shaded by others, 95 is also just throwing a bit more stuff on the Greeting wagon. Still passive gameplay.
In 99 and 118 the nervousness discussion is alright I suppose, but it's also just easy content for scum to be putting out. At this point all that's been said by Stange regarding other players has been some shade on Greeting and a townread on Marci, which are pretty standard reads to have.
186 is a decent question, I guess.
I don't feel too strongly on this slot, but Strange's reads feel safe and standard; I'd like some reads on more players, especially Meg and myself. Strange also just hasn't done much to further discussion in my eyes, while a lot of players have done more to engage in that way.

I'll get my vote to a more appropriate spot and VOTE: MegAzumarill.

[Meuh]

Alright, time for the readslist I promised (a bit later than I said, but it's okay ) ! Here's the system I use:

Spoiler:

[TTT] - Confirmed town
[TT] - Very strong townread
[/TT] - Strong townread
[T] - Townread
[/T] - Townlean
[//T] - Slight townlean
[/] - Neutral
[//M] - Slight mafialean
[/M] - Mafialean
[M] - Mafiaread
[/MM] - Strong mafiaread
[MM] - Very strong mafiaread
[MMM] - Confirmed maf

AsuStuckey [/]

~ 44 doesn't seem AI to me, I suppose 165 looks slightly good just because some of the questions Asu asked in it could've just been asked in the mafia thread if they're maf, but I don't think it means too much. We have 2 posts to go off of, so I don't feel strongly on this slot.

Cape90 [/T]

~ Cape's general tone feels good early. 15 gives off laid back townie energy, 16 feels like it's trying to progress the game and so does 27 and 37. Kinda hard to put into exact words but I just can't picture mafia making these posts?
53 is an okay post and I don't have a hard time believing Cape thought of voting for Meg before they were brought up. However, with Cape basing the reads on the way Meg and I both approach the game; it feels a bit more like it could be easily manufactured by mafia than other reads that have been put out. I think mafia have an easier time faking reads based on people's playstyles and the way they fundamentally view the game than on things like tone, so I could see mafia Cape make that post.
I don't really like 82, once again it's focused on stuff like "should we pressure inactives?" instead of reads and I don't think it furthered the game much.

"55 - At least 1 scum has spoken by this point and that is a fact. And that last line scares me and justifies my vote on you, thanks!"

really rubs me the wrong way and what Cape says there is inaccurate, at post 55, it wasn't confirmed that a mafia had spoken but Cape makes it sound like it. The way Cape responds to Meg's 64 feels opportunistic and rooted in confirmation bias. It feels like Cape's actively looking for extra reason to cast suspicion on Meg instead of actually trying to make his read more accurate. Could come from town, but more often comes from scum.
147, 149 and 152 all don't feel too productive. 152 once again feels like Cape is misrepresenting events, as Marci wasn't "trying to get Greeting in on the action", Greeting's the one who asked for her to throw out a name, she was prompted to by him in the first place.
These posts are followed by more productive content soon after, so it doesn't feel like Cape made those 3 posts just to have content out there and then leave.
155 feels pretty good, although Cape's criticism of Prohawk's 125 feels a bit weird with him just having made 149, which to me is a very similar post. It is true though that Prohawk in a general sense has been less helpful than Cape, however.
156 is a good post, feels relevant and someone actively trying to be useful.
183 I also like, can't see scum post that, really.
187 is a good point, neat.
Cape's early and later posts I tend to like, but the ones in the middle are a bit odd to me, so leantown is how I feel at this point.

Greeting [T]

~ I definitely needed to take another look at Greeting since the bulk of my read on him lied on only 2 of his 33 posts. Nothing from Greeting sticks out to me until 46. At first that post seemed weird to me and I was wondering why he was responding seriously when Marci didn't seem entirely serious, but why would scum do so? It's an aggressive play that furthers discussion and I kind of like it.
The entire interaction at 48 feels townie on Greeting's end.
51 and 54, the posts that made me scumread him in the first place. The focus on hammer distance feels much less weird with the whole secret plan thing Greeting apparently had planned and honestly I think I believe it. Both of those posts make sense with the idea of Greeting trying some sort of secret plan to get information, and I have no clue why Greeting would be doing something so clearly sneaky and aggressive as scum here. The main thing I still do dislike about that sequence of posts is how Greeting states clearly he townreads Cape before voting for Meg. It still feels off to me and doesn't tie into the whole secret plan thing (or at least I don't think so?)
91 feels genuine and not anything scum would be attempting here.
116 is weird, but probably is some sort of way Greeting is trying to get more information out of his wagon on Meg.
The tone of 122 feels bad, although I could see it come from an annoyed townie not really sure why they're being pushed in the first place (which is supported by 120 and 123)
126 feels annoyed more than nervous which is something I like. I can very much see town!Greeting make this post. The bit about Meg's vote specifically I find reads very much like something a townie would be writing.
130 seems to involve some amount of miscommunication as I've already said. Aside from that, Greeting's still displaying annoyance at me that's consistent with the tone he's adapting. He doesn't feel my vote's justified and he doesn't feel like I'm addressing his questions properly. It's a decent post.
131 I like him mentioning the wagon again and promising results, just feels more so as if he truly had good intentions in starting the wagon.
141's a bit weird but I don't mind too much I guess.
143 is still maintaining trying to understand why he's being pushed because of how he feels it's unjustified and unexplained. Once again, it's focused on understanding the suspicions before making a defense. It just looks townie to me.
154 is fine.
161 and 164 are posts I could see come from either alignment, Greeting could be maf here trying to just make Meg look dumb, or it could just once again be an extension of annoyance at the wagon on him.
181 makes sense with what Greeting's posted before.
The tone of Greeting's posts after being pushed I suppose could be from annoyed scum, but I think is more likely coming from town feeling he's being pushed for baseless reasons and that this wagon on him is ruining the results he was trying to get earlier from his push earlier.
On a reread, Greeting's content before the posts that I disliked leans towards town, the posts I don't like are neutral I suppose and everything after leans towards town, so that's where my read is at this point. Maybe since I was rereading and was already scumreading him, it caused me to look for townie behavior and now I confirmation biased myself into a townread, but I have a hard time thinking Greeting's scum at this point.

marcistar [/T]

~ First few posts feel kinda NAI for Marci, 22 and 23 are both helpful though and it is true that I don't call myself an innocent angel much and it's terminology Marci prefers!
Most of 29 feel like a good mix of joking and developing reads, it's helpful. Still feel the last bit of the post is a bit defensive, but I don't feel too strongly about it.
I like the first line of 33, the second one still has a defensive tone I don't like, though.
42 is fine, I particularly like the line where she mentions being scared of being pocketed, I don't think that's the kind of thing that crosses mafia members' minds that often.
49 makes sense and seems like it probably comes from a townie mentality.
89 I also like.
104, 136 and 182 all just don't seem to have much to them. I'd love more in depth/updated reads from Marci, I don't feel she's voiced her opinion on players much in a while, all 3 of those posts are very passive.

MegAzumarill [/M]

~ 6, 9 and 35 I don't feel strongly on.
36, 39 and 55 are all very meh posts, just talking about how he approaches the game, doesn't further discussion much. 64 and 70 are both actually acknowledging the game we're playing which is neat ig, but Meg doesn't voice their opinion on it, they just ask questions to other people.
71 and 73 are still just about the way he approaches the game. 83 is just Meg lightly defending themselves and asking another question to Greeting.
85 and 86 are just more simple questions, the latter feeling a bit hypocritical considering the content Meg themselves had put out. So does 88
96 just feels empty
119 Meg votes without justifying why, despite having said earlier they think people should give well detailed reasons for their votes
138 is Meg's first post where I actually feel he voices a read, well done! Even then it feels shallow and I would've liked for them to build on it.
139 is decent justification at least
The back-and-forth with Greeting in 140, 142 and 144 is fine, I guess.
151 you barely elaborated on it, come on. Also why are you the one complaining about lack of reads? You're on post 151 and your only read is the one with Greeting who despite you interacting with continously, you fail to provide good reasoning for voting aside from 2 posts that do an okay job at it.
157 and 160 are okay and more reasoning, sure
162 WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!! MEG FINALLY DROPPED ANOTHER READ!!!! not a very in depth one, but wow!! a decent read from Meg!! Impressive!!
166 has some more reads, sorting a few people is nice. Would like to hear Meg's thoughts on Cape though.
I like the point made at the bottom of 168.
I'm fine with 172.
I like 174, the paranoia thing feels more so like something town would say.
177 is good content.
I like the vote in 179, although I feel it may be an attempt to to bring people's attention elsewhere and to be buddy buddy with Prism, who was already voting Hawk,
Don't know if you could tell, but I got very annoyed reading this ISO. Meg says people should justify their votes well, then doesn't do so. Meg complains about people not posting game relevant content while their posting was devoid of game relevance and focused on talking about their approach of the game and how it should be played over actual reads or significant stances on the current game. It gets a bit better near the end, but I don't think the emptiness of Meg's posts can be justified just by playstyle. It's a frustrating read because Meg's posts just feel so meaningless, I understand why Greeting was annoyed with them lmao. The read on Greeting doesn't feel particularly natural to me, either and the other reads feel very easy to manufacture.

Prism [/T]

~ Okay, 58 I don't read as town or maf.
92 is some good little reads to start off, cool, I also like the pressure for Meg to drop reads.
93 are some standard questions.
97 and 101 both feel like posts from someone trying to solve the game honestly, I like them a bit.
102 I feel pretty neutral on
103 the "players outgrowing metareads" point is fairly interesting and once again feels like it'd be stated by someone who's trying to solve the game and I like the way it's built upon in 105 and 106.
111 is nice, natural pressure on Hawk.
112 is fine.
133 just feels natural and good.
The piles in 137 make a whole lot of sense and the justification in 158 and 159 I also think is good.
The way she responds to Meg in 175 and 178 looks like town reasoning to me.
I don't have much constructive to say on this slot honestly which you've probably realized by my shallow analysis, her posts feel natural and well reasoned enough, but I'm not that confident on Prism's alignment. I feel like my brain's not big enough to actually do good analysis of her content

ProHawk [/M]

~ 40 is fine as an intro, getting people to introduce themselves is nice!
I don't like 108, however. The reads on Marci and I feel easy to fabricate, the slight doubt on Prism for having voted him also does. In addition, it feels odd to have Hawk just... not mention Meg in the post at all, considering that:
-Hawk was casting a vote against Greeting, who had just launched a wagon on Meg.
-Meg was also engaging in the same "questions without follow-up" type of posts that Hawk used to justify his vote on Greeting.
I get the impression here that Hawk, if scum, just wanted to get something on board, threw together some standard reads and avoided the Meg wagon since it'd be too complex to address and passively jumped on the Greeting wagon. It's harder to see a town member make this post.
Hawk also engages in the same behavior he's supposedly voting Greeting for in 125.
124 is just bad justification for reads, I don't think "level of interaction" is a good thing to base reads off of, really?
109, 110, 125 and 129 all don't have much substance.

Strangematter [//M]

~ So, 67 and 68 are both just the inactive discussion.
76 and 78 just ask Marci a pretty basic question.
87 just also shades a post already shaded by others, 95 is also just throwing a bit more stuff on the Greeting wagon. Still passive gameplay.
In 99 and 118 the nervousness discussion is alright I suppose, but it's also just easy content for scum to be putting out. At this point all that's been said by Stange regarding other players has been some shade on Greeting and a townread on Marci, which are pretty standard reads to have.
186 is a decent question, I guess.
I don't feel too strongly on this slot, but Strange's reads feel safe and standard; I'd like some reads on more players, especially Meg and myself. Strange also just hasn't done much to further discussion in my eyes, while a lot of players have done more to engage in that way.

I'll get my vote to a more appropriate spot and VOTE: MegAzumarill.

[Meuh]

Not sure why that posted twice? Site bug I suppose, didn't do it intentionally

[Meuh]

Not sure why that posted twice? Site bug I suppose, didn't do it intentionally

its cuz ur readslist is so fire people need to see it twice ofc
i like ur reads, i think ur town, i might be wrong but that looks like too much effort

I mean idk if effort is really AI for me, during my one scum game I posted like 53 times in the ~60 hours I was alive, including a readslist (although a much less extensive one)
The general environment of the game was pretty fast during that timeframe tbf, but my point still stands

[Meuh]

Here's a compilation of my readslist posts then, if that's relevant, you can check them out! They all use the same format, with slight alterations (mostly to add more options over time since I wanted more specific ways to signal my read on a player)

2054 (I was VT)

First readslist - viewtopic.php?p=12587452#p12587452
Second readslist - viewtopic.php?p=12591895#p12591895

2058 (also VT)

Only readslist - viewtopic.php?p=12644984#p12644984

2061 (still VT)

Did not make any readslist, but I did make some big posts, here are 2 that I spent a lot of time on, if you're looking for more recent and/or more post-by-post content you can look here
Big post on iN3krO - viewtopic.php?p=12716448#p12716448
Big post on Marci - viewtopic.php?p=12722846#p12722846

2063 (mafia goon)

First readslist - viewtopic.php?p=12761181#p12761181
Second readslist - viewtopic.php?p=12763865#p12763865

[Meuh]

Your post links don't work, Greeting

[Meuh]

Meuh

I'm always suspicious of joke play which is exhibited in posts like 12, 13.
But posts like 41 scream genuine newbie on the other hand.
Posts 66 and 69 about me are justified and are a townread in my mind. It's actually the only player who said something somewhat reasonable about me possibly being scum before my accidental PT reveal.
I feel like she's trying to be cute with posts like 81, 90, 98, which is well... cute, but also a bit scummy. Making oneself look cute and vulnerable is a scum strategy I'd personally support and approve if I were scum.
I started seriously questioning her motives in 121 and 127. In retrospect, it seems to me like she was trying to put pressure on me, but I don't see the result exhibited. It's also inconsistent with her later reads (188).
The reads post was good. I think it's a job well done and this landed her a soft townlean for now. (188)

I genuinely just did a full 180 degrees on you after the ISO, the inconsistency between 188 and the rest of my content is because my mind just changed. After my initial suspicions of you, I hadn't actually reevaluated the posts I didn't like with the justification you dropped.
The colours in 90 and 98 are cute ig which is something I was looking for because I like having my posts be aesthetically pleasing, but it's also that I wanted to make it clear what parts of people's posts I was responding to. Other posts have been hard to follow to me like Cape's 37, and I wanted to avoid that. I can provide examples of me making my posts cute in past games if you want to

Not sure how to feel about the whole Greeting private thread thing. It's definitely something, I'd feel like shit for voting him over it though

[Meuh]

I also don't do preflips.

What's a preflip?

[Meuh]

Greeting, I think you’re putting a bit too much emphasis on the way some people talk or general archetypes of players as patterns from past games to define your reads. I skimmed through other games I played with Marci and she didn’t use capital letters more there. Mentors can be town, and they can be scum. I don’t think alignment would change whether or not someone plays as a mentor or if someone suddenly likes capitalizing things.

[Meuh]

VOTE: StrangeMatter

Prefer my vote here.

[Meuh]

VOTE: StrangeMatter

Prefer my vote here.

May be wrong on this idea but I feel like Strange's in a position a lot of mafia members are: widely null or slightly scumread with not much radical takes, and without much pressure on them. I think this kind of null or slight scumread is what a lot of mafia members like to read each other, I could see many players be doing this regarding Strange.
Strange is also to me probably the player who has the widest net of possible scum partners (other than Asu I suppose), so that's also something that makes them a correct vote here more often. I suppose this delves into preflip associations which you may not all like but eh
I'll say I've liked Meg's recent posts a bit more than their earlier ones so that also nudges me that way. Not sure how I feel about Hawk's new posts though

[Meuh]

@ProHawk, what do you think of me and Marci? You've yet to comment on it since the original mention back in 108 despite being asked.

[Meuh]

Hawk seems more focused on throwing suspicion on Prism than on developing significant reads or reads on the broader set of players, which is off-putting

[Meuh]

Hawk seems more focused on throwing suspicion on Prism than on developing significant reads or reads on the broader set of players, which is off-putting

I don't have the time to go through the thread and make a giant ass reads list, not to mention this is D1 with no flips or alignments to analyze which actually yield productive results.

I already mentioned the effort of scum hunting which put you and Marcii as top town reads for me. I'm not sure what else you want?

I'm not asking for a huge list, just a bit more development. Also D1 can absolutely be a productive day and while flips help the game develop, there is nothing stopping us from advancing significantly before then

[Meuh]

Greeting, I think you’re putting a bit too much emphasis on the way some people talk or general archetypes of players as patterns from past games to define your reads. I skimmed through other games I played with Marci and she didn’t use capital letters more there. Mentors can be town, and they can be scum. I don’t think alignment would change whether or not someone plays as a mentor or if someone suddenly likes capitalizing things.

I... disagree.

While definitely I am not going to

only

look into past behavior of players this whole game, my belief is that it’s a good starting point.

Also, my past play is being extensively looked into, so why wouldn’t I do that when it comes to other players?

That’s not the same thing. People looking for patterns within other players’ gameplay is fine, but you’re saying that certain archetypes of players tend to be town or scum based on just seeing some players who don’t like capitalizing or who act as mentors. If you wanna meta read players, just meta read them on their own past games, or at the very least show that what you’re pointing out in these past players was actually scummy. Like for example, you could’ve looked at another one of N_M’s games where he was town and seen whether or not he capitalizes more as town. Meta reads are fine, I just think you’re leaning into archetypes and playstyles a lot when while they can fluctuate to an extent, you haven’t proven your point that they warrant a town or a scumread over it. It just seems like a massive reach.

[Meuh]

@Marci what are your thoughts on StrangeMatter?

[Meuh]

Excited for the replacement; it’s like getting a whole new player

At this point here’s a little sort of where I’d like to vote today:

Very much down: Strange, ProHawk
Asu’s tier: Asu
Eh, I guess: Greeting, Marci
Meg’s tier: Meg
Nah: Prism, Cape

Meg’s recent posting looks better to me, Marci’s recent posting has been a bit eh, on the other end. Greeting’s private thread stuff and the justification for the recent Marci read doesn’t feel incredible, but the prevailing thought I have about him leans towards town.
I’d slightly prefer a Strange vote over a ProHawk vote, mostly because ProHawk’s providing much better content to actually base reads on.

I think I’ll reread the ProHawk and Prism stuff at some point but I found the whole thing frustrating initially, not really motivated to.

Asu’s spot will fluctuate depending on the replacement, but at the moment that slot sits there.

[Meuh]

I'm honored to have my own tier!

It makes me want to cry tiers of joy.

You deserve it!

I still haven't gotten over the fact that Azumarill's eyes in Meg's avatar are slightly moving.

Holy shit I never realized that. Will never look at that avatar the same way

[Meuh]

The paranoia is essentially scum will vote and then claim they did not know it was E-1

Which is still plausible

The probably worse case is if town actually does not know it is E-1 and then hammers (Which does happen)

Yeah I’ve been accidentally hammered by a townie who didn’t realize it was E-1 before, it’s a real possibility

[Meuh]

I don't think Prohawk's scum. His posts just don't read like it

I don't really see Prism's tunneling as too scummy though tbh? At this point I probably want a lim somewhere in Strange or Cabd

Sorry for not posting much, I have been reading still but I feel like while I am technically caught up, for the past 2 days almost none of the information has actually absorbed in my brain at all; especially the whole Prism ProHawk stuff which I'll need to read again at some point because I have not been able to get much out of it in terms of the actual arguments being made, but a general overlook looked townie for ProHawk. I did like the wanting to flip over Marci thing, I've made that exact type of comment before as a townie and I don't think it's something scum say much

[Meuh]

VOTE: Cabd

POE

I honestly just don't really see many realistic scum teams within the 8 slots that have been active and townread most people so I think Cabd just has to be scum here.
Main issue with this elim would be lack of info from the flip which would kinda suck, but I just don't really know where else we should elim here, none of the options really have me convinced
Maybe Strange is still a better elim just cause it provides more info on flip and I can see that slot be scum but meh, I think mafia Cabd is

significantly

more likely than it is for anyone else

I really think Meg's town here, idk why exactly but their vibes are immaculate at the moment

[Meuh]

what if this is a prism/strange team

i think i can actually see that

[Meuh]

Greeting's town. Not voting for him if it can be avoided

[Meuh]

yes Cape, I did read your post. I am asking you WHY you got to "it must be TvS", or in other words, why did you rule out T-T?

Meuh, you worry me not because of voting me, but because of the issue with townreading everyone else, by definition even if I'm scum one of your reads is completely wrong? Are you trying to do preflip associative pairings? I believe prism went into why that's a VERY bad idea in a standard game.

Did Prism do that? I recall her saying she didn't do preflip associations but not actually explaining why, maybe she did in another post that I missed?

I know I'm wrong somewhere else, I'm just not sure where else. I suppose lack of confidence is part of what's going on in my thought process, I tend to hit those sorts of walls when playing mafia where I just feel like I've fallen back and suddenly I don't feel like I have any grasp on what's going on and my reads are all wrong, happened around the time the whole ProHawk-Prism stuff started to happen. Big part of the reason why I just didn't post for a bit, it's demotivating and definitely something I wanna work on regarding my mentality, it's really fucked me over before, especially during my first game on MS.

[Meuh]

Lessssssgoooooooooo Cabd wagon

Not sure how I feel about the buddy-buddy point, I’ve seen similar interactions to Prism/Cabd come from 2 people who knew each other when one subbed in and they were T/T

[Meuh]

Greeting absolutely has a meta shift, unsure if that's AI though....

Imagine if the world was just this simple... Greeting & ProHawk.

Rule 1 of Cape town: I always townread at least 1 mafia.

If that’s the scum team I’d be ashamed of how poorly I’m reading this game

[Meuh]

is cabd scum..?

This is a post

It sure is a post

[Meuh]

Marci should be looked into tomorrow but I see no reason to elim her today tbh

[Meuh]

I should be fully available the hour before the deadline if something needs to happen, I'll vote for anyone over a no elim (including myself if you guys decide to )

[Meuh]

Welp, that’s unfortunate.

I’ll try to make some new reads and cast a vote this evening

We can still win it!

[Meuh]

Welp, that’s unfortunate.

I’ll try to make some new reads and cast a vote this evening

We can still win it!

Do you think that both scums were on the

Cabd

wagon or did they spread votes? We have two conftownies on the

ProHawk

wagon, and

Cape90

whom I'm still reading town. But then there's

marcistar

.

Cabd

[5]: Meuh, Greeting, ProHawk, MegAzumarill, StrangeMatter [HAMMER]

ProHawk

[4]:

Prism

, marcistar, Cape90,

Cabd

My first thought was 2 scum in Prohawk/Meg/Strange so I’m leaning towards them being on the Cabd wagon

[Meuh]

Inb4 the scumteam is

MegAzumarill

and

ProHawk

. This isn’t newbie play. They weren’t town PR hunting, they just wanted to kill two birds with one stone and simply got lucky while doing it.

You're both saying it's the other with ProHawk... you should unite and vote ProHawk!

[Meuh]

VOTE: MegAzumarill

Still think it’s in ProHawk/Meg/Strange, maybe Marci ig? I’ll need to reread Meg’s more recent posting but I think the way ProHawk said it fits well, “opportunistic”. I have a hard time believing the entirety of the wagons late on day 1 (ProHawk, Strange, Cabd) are town, so I think this is Meg paired with one of ProHawk or Strange.

There are some things pointing towards Greeting scum but the overarching trend with Greeting’s posting radiates townie energy. I think reading too deep into the Prism kill could be a bad idea and can easily get in WIFOM territory, there’s reason for anyone alive to have killed Prism here

[Meuh]

UNVOTE:

[Meuh]

I don’t like having anyone on E-1 at the moment

Marci why did you vote Meg?

[Meuh]

Also the push on me on the grounds of opportunism is so bad it's almost laughable for 2 reasons.

1. I've been on greetings case since d1.
2. There would be not one but 2 easier Mislims for me to push if I was scum. These being strange or prohawk. Even if one would be my partner why wouldn't I get the other killed if I wanted a free townie dead.

Maybe provide an actual valid reason if you want to wagon someone to e-1. The wagon on me formed very quick over me pointing out the obvious, it almost definitely has some scum in there. I'll analyze it shortly

On point 2, there’s still the idea that if let’s say you were scum with Strange and then you accepted the scumpool of you/Strange/ProHawk, even if you get ProHawk mislimed, you and Strange then become the obvious votes on day 3. Scum!Meg would benefit from changing the narrative in that situation and expanding the scumpool to more effectively hide later on.

[Meuh]

No clue why that post has small text, I didn’t click on that

[Meuh]

No clue why that post has small text, I didn’t click on that

It’s not small anymore?? Website’s bugging out on my end what even

[Meuh]

Oops, will try to post more this evening

[Meuh]

VOTE: Strangematter makes the most sense to me here

[Meuh]

I was leaning towards ProHawk earlier but I think the way he’s interacted with others makes me doubt he’s scum

To me the elim pool is Strange/Marci/Meg, that’s where I’m willing to go, I don’t think Prohawk/Greeting/Cape should be voted out here

[Meuh]

My read on Greeting may just be cognitive dissonance

I feel conflicted on the slot but I’m just hanging onto the idea he’s just acted a bit too much like a townie in some posts to be scum

I feel like an idiot right now honestly

[Meuh]

Maybe Greeting’s the slot to elim here actually

If Strange flips town I have no clue where to go from there

At least with Greeting there’s some semblance of direction if it’s wrong

Is this just Marci/Greeting? It may be

I’m not voting for Greeting either way cause E-1 makes me uncomfortable

I think leaving the Meg/Greeting thing alone any longer could just cause issues for us

[Meuh]

Greeting’s behaviour in the first few posts of this day just seem like scum trying to appeal to a trusted townie in order to reinforce their own place in the game

Don’t like it

[Meuh]

Greeting’s behaviour in the first few posts of this day just seem like scum trying to appeal to a trusted townie in order to reinforce their own place in the game

Don’t like it

???

Who are you even talking about as a trusted townie? And, what do you mean by trying to appeal to a trusted townie?

Sorry for not being clear, to me it just seemed like the way Greeting approached the start of the day was deliberately to appeal to me (who is one of the more townread players), and by appealing to me, getting his name out of the elim pool for today, or at the very least my vote off of him.
Don’t know if it fully makes sense but I’m paranoid of getting pocketed and I think that might be what Greeting’s been attempting as of late? On a reread Greeting’s early day 2 isn’t that bad in terms of pocketing potential but idk, it felt like all of our thoughts magically lined up and I don’t like that

[Meuh]

VOTE: Prohawk

Strangematter is versatile in scum pairings but I think ProHawk’s scummier
We should make Prism proud and lim him

[Meuh]

Meg please don’t shoot me

[Meuh]

Also once again I’m willing to hammer literally anyone, nolim is by far the worst outcome for this day

[Meuh]

We still have 2 days on deadline so that's not an issue

What do you scumread about prohawk?

Well I’ve been reflecting on the way day 1 went, and I had 2 thoughts that both looked bad for ProHawk:
-I think at least one of Prism’s pushes (Greeting/ProHawk) was scum
-I think at least one of yesterday’s big wagons (Strange/ProHawk/Cabd) was scum

ProHawk’s in both of these

Also just POE, other players have engaged in more behaviour I see as actively townie-looking than he has

Plus vibes

Point is, I’m not sure if I can see ProHawk not be scum here considering his general position in the game if that makes any sense at all

[Meuh]

Prohawk can be town if its just marcistar and Greeting.
Marci's play today feels s/s with Greeting although I'm not for sure about it.

I mean I’m fine with a Greeting lim, he could be scum with either Marci or ProHawk, I don’t think Marci/ProHawk is S/S

[Meuh]

So now

Meuh

is choosing to ignore me and go with

MegAzumarill

. It's a real shame.

[Meuh]

Greeting flailing go brrrrr

AtE go brrrrrrrrr

[Meuh]

So now

Meuh

is choosing to ignore me and go with

MegAzumarill

. It's a real shame.

So now

Meuh

is choosing to ignore me and go with

MegAzumarill

. It's a real shame.

So you have a reason to defend Meg like this? Look I think Meg is town but what gives here?

I'm not defending anyone, especially not

MegAzumarill

? If you meant

Meuh

and not

MegAzumarill

, I've outlined my view on them before, most recently in 751 and 807.

I'm just expressing my disappointment at this post.

I mean I’m fine with a Greeting lim, he could be scum with either Marci or ProHawk, I don’t think Marci/ProHawk is S/S

I consider

MegAzumarill

and

ProHawk

to be prime scum suspects, and obviously they need to win over townies to vote me out.

(To all townies, including the one townie left amongst

MegAzumarill

,

ProHawk

and

StrangeMatter

.)

If you think I'm town, or at least more towny than

MegAzumarill

,

ProHawk

and

StrangeMatter

than all I can is ask you

is to vote for one of them

. I'll jump on whichever wagon of those three emerges as the most likely elim, unless it's

MegAzumarill

- in that case the vote is already there. I've made my preferences very clear, so my choice will reflect that. But so far it looks like the competing wagon might be me.

I think that eliminating one of them this Day is key to pushing the game forward.

I will be soon heading to sleep. I will definitely be around tomorrow afternoon, but cannot guarantee that I'll be around earlier than that. Highly depends on how busy my day will be.

This string of posts just really looks like scum who's desperate after someone they relied on (me) shifted their view on them.

The pink bits just seem like Greeting trying to invoke emotions in me to make me feel bad, stupid or rude for even suggesting that liming him would be okay, very scummy to me. Maybe I am stupid for wanting to lim you, but I'd rather stay true to my reads and what I think is right than not trusting myself just because you made me feel bad

[Meuh]

I think StrangeMatter's town

I have the impression it's straight up Marci/Greeting as the scum team, those 2 slots are off

I'll VOTE: Marci, happy with a Greeting lim but E-1's too spooky for me at the moment since we have over a day left

[Meuh]

So now

Meuh

is choosing to ignore me and go with

MegAzumarill

. It's a real shame.

I laughed. Might steal this to use in my signature after the game is over!

I wonder how this meme will age. Most likely really badly.

Ty ty!

[Meuh]

Why are you scared of E-1 if you're confident in your reads Meuh?

We have to get to E-1 and an intent to get a claim.

Right, forgot about the whole claiming before hammer thing, better get that done ASAP

VOTE: Greeting

E-1 ALERT E-1 ALERT!!!! GREETING PLEASE CLAIM

[Meuh]

Welp UNVOTE:

[Meuh]

I mean if someone wants to CC cop they need to speak up, I’m not cop

[Meuh]

I mean I guess if cop cc claims they’re dead tonight but liming Greeting here just feels weird?

Idk

[Meuh]

If there’s no scum between Greeting/Meg I’ll actually just cry

[Meuh]

We have 15 hours left.

It is time to decide.

I willingly put myself at E-1. Do the deed, then go for

MegAzumarill

and

ProHawk

. And the game, although this may be hard to believe, can still be won.

Well, alright. VOTE: Greeting it’s been done.

[Meuh]

Ouch ELO

The end of the day was really weird, but honestly I don’t feel terrible about hammering Greeting considering he literally voted for himself

Meg’s probably just scum here

[Meuh]

My play doesn't even makes sense as scum

If I wanted to trade 1f1 with the cop I just cc
Instead you are saying I decided to try and get someone I knew was conf!town Limmed when if I failed I'm essentially outed and my team almost always autoloses.
Does that make sense to you?

Why CC and trade 1f1 when you can get Greeting hammered and now today still have a shot at not being limmed?

[Meuh]

My play doesn't even makes sense as scum

If I wanted to trade 1f1 with the cop I just cc
Instead you are saying I decided to try and get someone I knew was conf!town Limmed when if I failed I'm essentially outed and my team almost always autoloses.
Does that make sense to you?

CC you die next day.

Push a "He's a liar, I saw who *really* is the town cop, I know who you are so don't counter claim" and get him to be eliminated without a lie yourself and well you get to live another day and eliminate two confirmed town.

So no, your play makes perfect sense as scum because you avoid being caught in a lie with the same result.

I haven't decided who is *actual* scum here yet, still need to do some evaluating, but it's at best anti-town-play.

P-EDIT: Don't steal my thunder Meuh

Great minds think alike

[Meuh]

My play doesn't even makes sense as scum

If I wanted to trade 1f1 with the cop I just cc
Instead you are saying I decided to try and get someone I knew was conf!town Limmed when if I failed I'm essentially outed and my team almost always autoloses.
Does that make sense to you?

CC you die next day.

Push a "He's a liar, I saw who *really* is the town cop, I know who you are so don't counter claim" and get him to be eliminated without a lie yourself and well you get to live another day and eliminate two confirmed town.

So no, your play makes perfect sense as scum because you avoid being caught in a lie with the same result.

I haven't decided who is *actual* scum here yet, still need to do some evaluating, but it's at best anti-town-play.

P-EDIT: Don't steal my thunder Meuh

Doesn't explain why I'd been basically setting up a 1f1 without having any way to tell Greeting is cop.

Why would VT Greeting fake claim cop?
Also CCing would be a 1f1, so I don't understand why you're saying you would've done that as scum

[Meuh]

I would prefer to discuss who else we can put on the chopping block.

Can you say strangematter has done a single townie thing this game?
Have you seen cape do an ounce of towniness since d1?

Meg you should vote for Cape!

[Meuh]

Seeing Greeting flip green makes both ProHawk and Strange look better in my eyes because it means both players who started up the Cabd wagon were town; which makes it less likely scum used the Cabd wagon to try to move away from the Strange/ProHawk wagons that were in place

[Meuh]

Limming an uncced cop claim?

VOTE: MegAzumarill

Come tf on man I should lim Mueh too for that

removing the bold tags from the vote so that the vote counter registers it correctly ~D

Can't vote for me if you can't write my name

[Meuh]

I would prefer to discuss who else we can put on the chopping block.

Can you say strangematter has done a single townie thing this game?
Have you seen cape do an ounce of towniness since d1?

StrangeMatter's 747, 794, 812 and 813 all look good to me
They all feel genuinely gamesolvey and devoid of malicious intent

[Meuh]

My biggest concern is that I don't see anyone defending MegAzu...

Why would scum bus here in this scenario?

Cape’s busing Meg for towncred tomorrow!

[Meuh]

My biggest concern is that I don't see anyone defending MegAzu...

Why would scum bus here in this scenario?

Cape’s busing Meg for towncred tomorrow!

That thought JUST popped into my head right when I posted before you

Haha, I’ve been thinking it for a bit, Meg throwing shade on Strange and Cape but voting Strange + Cape’s oddly agressive retaliation, it’s likely manufactured.

[Meuh]

So my answer was:

Scum knows that MegAzu's play was insanely scum-motivated. In scum chat: "okay let's just start the bussing train for a 3p endgame win instead of go for a win today because town is likely going to vote you off anyway."

Cape did just that, not worrying at all about the consequences if they were both town.

Which one do you want to eliminate first?

Yeah Meg was the obvious elim today, so the best play for scum is to let him be elimed and try to make his other team member look as townie as possible so they can win on day 4.

[Meuh]

Greeting was my top townread and it's like. Ugh. I mean the other townies need to learn what initiative is and just step on the gas, this game is free

Rude
Also this game is definitely not free, we're at a 3v2 and while we have good leads, this is still very much a losable game

[Meuh]

So here's where I am at:

Cape is trying WAY too hard here when I am pretty much sure the majority of us are leaning on a MegAzu elimination.
Cape entered the day guns blazing, knowing it's 3v2 and that a wrong move would mean auto-lose. This is as big or bigger than the elim the claimed cop blunder.
Cape ended the day yesterday voting StrangeMatter, and is now treating them like confirmed town.
Cape when pushed had made a case on both myself and then a case on Meuh based off of them eliminating claimed cop.

StrangeMatter is guaranteed to make it to the next round if we get it right today. Cape also IMO is guaranteed. That leaves a pick from myself or Meuh.


--------------------

I am still waiting on Meuh's opinion on who first... unless I missed that answer.

Yeah I think I'm dying tonight if we lim correctly

I don't see how Cape would be a better lim than Meg today; I'm not shutting that door, though. Who did you have in mind?

[Meuh]

Who did you have in mind?

MegAzu

I actually thought they were going to claim that they thought I was the one dropping cop crumbs...

Honestly I wasn't even thinking of who could or could not be the person Meg thought was acting coply

[Meuh]

Meg why were you PR hunting on day 2? Why would you, as a townie, notice the inconsistency in Cape's read on Strange, then choose not to act on it?

[Meuh]

Who did you have in mind?

MegAzu

I actually thought they were going to claim that they thought I was the one dropping cop crumbs...

Why did you think Meg was gonna claim that?

[Meuh]

Where was this gumption back in the beginning of the game Cape?

I had more time + I don't thrive with narrow POE especially since at this point I feel like I would just be circularly arguing my points anyway + finals for college + cleaning messy house for guests.

The meta post I made about you. The argument I made wasn't that you aren't playing like you usually do as town. It was that you looked like you were trying to copy it while cutting a few corners. That's the best way I could put it.

Besides, you were suspecting me day 1 despite my "gumption" and you were townreading me day 2 despite my lack of "gumption".
It's clear to me that you and Meg are putting in a focused attack on me and instead of pushing Meg you want to see if you can get a miselim on me despite you saying it's both me + Meg.

You are not consistent this game which makes you look really bad and like mafia to me, hence your "outing" to me.

Discussion is pretty pointless on my end if I'll just end up repeating myself over and over. Why wouldn't I just push strange today if I am mafia? Why Meg?

Yo town ask yourself that plz and come back to me. ProHawk knows if I was mafia in his shoes that I could have just easily pushed Strange and win. I am the one who pointed Meg out, not anyone else

Pretty sure you answered the opposite of what ProHawk was asking, I think he thought you had

less

gumption on day 1.

[Meuh]

I was a little tunnel visioned I will admit.
Pr hunting is good for town to try to avoid the PRs so they aren't forced to claim in public

I just think PR hunting is something that mafia subconsciously do more, so for you to notice it and for your instincts to go towards Cape being cop seems like it would come more from scum than from town if that makes any sense?
Like the one game I've played scum, accidental subconscious PR hunting being noticed by someone is exactly what got me limmed, and they were right. (viewtopic.php?p=12764122#p12764122 my mention here of T3/VFP being a possible mason pair, which they actually were )

[Meuh]

Hawk/Strange isn't S/S, there's at least 1 scum in Cape/Meg

[Meuh]

Really if the game continues to tomorrow I accomplished something here

If you're scum your partner is strange silly

I think it's kinda obvious me and Cape aren't aligned.

We probably just lose tomorrow even if you lim correct (cape) today

this series of quotes is really funny.

"wE pRoBaBly just Looose TooooMorrRow"

like you literally put your """"gamesolve"""" in the post before how could you even think that?

Sorry now I'm just a bully punching down

My point being Meg town cannot seriously think this given they have a "solve" onto StrangeMatter that in this imaginary world that Meg is making up. Meg has a good chance of winning here hypothetically

I think they meant we're gonna lose because everyone other than him doesn't agree with his solve, having a solve is useless if the players in it don't get limmed ever

[Meuh]

I'm curious, how would you guys feel about a ProHawk lim?

[Meuh]

I'm curious, how would you guys feel about a ProHawk lim?

BDay Prod recieved.

Ehhh I don't think a ProHawk lim would be really good right now (We only have one shot), though looking through Cape09's posts I get the feeling of a scum TMIing them honestly.

Happy birthday Strange!

[Meuh]

I'm not sure if I think either of Cape/Meg are really acting in good faith here, neither of them read like it to me.

The reason I brought up the idea of a ProHawk lim is because I think Strange is town, and some of you have been mentioning that you don't think Cape/Meg is S/S, which would then make ProHawk the partner here. I can still see Meg/Cape being S/S though, and while I'm pretty confident on my read on Strange, they could still be scum and it makes POEing ProHawk scarier

[Meuh]

Here's my ranking from most town to most scum...

ProHawk
marcistar
Meuh
Greeting
Cabd
MegAzumarill
Cape90
StrangeMatter
Prism Spartan117

Cabd isn't a real read but because of the lack of content he goes smack dab in the middle for now.

If we look at this post, though, I can 100% see scum!Prohawk post this readslist, putting your scum partner as slightly scummier than average is from what I've seen, the most common approach scum take to their reads on their partner

[Meuh]

Prohawk never dies here.
It's frankly a stupid idea over the 50/50 of me and cape

Yeah, probably not the greatest option but I think mentioning it was worthwile.

[Meuh]

I'm kind of tempted to place a vote down soon, either on Cape or Meg. Either it gets insta-hammered and we lose, or it doesn't and that player's scum. Better than sitting around running in circles for a few days

[Meuh]

*summons meuh*

I have been summoned

[Meuh]

I do have an entire case primed and ready about how me and Cape are not s/s.

If you want to see it we should lim cape.

I would like to see it. I'm leaning on a Cape elim

I'm leaning on a Meg lim

[Meuh]

VOTE: Meg let's do it!

[Meuh]

GG everyone! Wouldn’t have limmed correctly either, this was a tough scenario

Great to meet you all and I hope we can play again

[Meuh]

Individualized feedback, meant to be constructive and just random small things I noticed. Note that if this seems overly picky, you probably did a good job and that was all I could find!

Feel free to yeet these out the window if you disagree-you saw how bad my own play was!

Meuh

I loved, loved, loved your reads wall. I had you as hard town from that point on and basically never doubted it from there-I also thought, like marcistar, your comments/interventions with me/ProHawk oozed town in intention. I hope you keep making these, even though it also puts more pressure on you to deliver as scum!

I think your biggest mistake was similar to Greeting's. Greeting selfvoting was a bad move, and unfortunately you needed to catch it rather than just trust they knew what they were doing. Voting out an uncc'd PR in an open setup is always going to be a bad move. Scum fishing for a cc is simply the price for a 1 for 1 trade and you should accept it gladly, throwing away an elim AND losing marcistar a day early was disastrous. You should have been the one to refuse to let Greeting go off the ledge.

Ty for the feedback!

So this post is gonna be very self-centered: I’m just reflecting on the way I played this game and overall, feel free to skip it over, it’s a post more for myself than for anyone else

For the mistake part, I definitely agree on that, the hammer on Greeting will be a learning experience.
I think it actually came down more to the mentality I had going into it than the actual logic which I used to hammer Greeting; which was bad, but honestly the hammer was more emotional than logical, I don’t think I would’ve done it under different circumstances.

Little rant about my mentality in mafia, it’s not necessarily interesting to anyone other than me but hey I’m reflecting on it so I’m posting it :

Spoiler:

I randomly hit these low points during games (especially near the end of the day) that make me feel like I’m completely wrong about everything and that I’m an idiot. Definitely sucks to have in a game where I’m trying to be right.
It basically causes a few things:
-I start seeing every option as a bad one, every flip as one that would be a townie.
-Because of that, my mentality shifts to picking the least bad option instead of the best one, if that makes any sense?
-Because of my lack of confidence in myself, I start just wanting to follow what others are telling me.

I hit those points both near the end of day 1 and day 2.
On day 1 since I started seeing everyone as a townie, the slot that had said the least sounded like the easiest one to be scum. It’s very poor logic but that played a role in me pushing for Cabd.

On day 2, it was more obvious. Me being easily influenced by others just culminated in the hammer, there was no way I wouldn’t hammer Greeting with both Meg and Greeting telling me to do it. I was 100% expecting whoever I would vote for to be town, so while I did notice scummy things about the way Greeting played near EOD, I was still 100% expecting him to flip cop there.

Anyways my mentality and occasional lack of confidence is to me my biggest weakness (in my town play as least) since my very first game so it’s something I’ll be working on!

And thanks for the compliment on the reads wall! I put a lot of work into it! (A bit over 2 hours I think? Which is a little embarrassing )
Honestly my main issue regarding that is following up with similar posts in later days, because it feels like there’s too much to tackle. I could make a second wall that simply expands on the first, but the issue is that my perspective changes over time, so simply assuming all my reads from day 1 carry over isn’t great. Plus there’s deaths to take into account.
I’ve done walls on specific players in later days in a past game and I think that worked fairly well, although I don’t think it’s as great for my personal perspective on the game. Since I ISOd literally everyone in my wall, I was able to get a better picture of the overall game, not just of a few players. I think ISOing specific players would work best after a scum flip, so you could simply focus on interactions between the dead mafia and the players still alive.

Oh and I definitely am setting myself up for an uphill battle when I play scum…

I’ve managed to play all 4 of my townie games while staying townread by a large part of the town and never getting real momentum to be limmed, which I think is great when it comes to my townie games, but I have no clue how to play scum. My one scum game ended up with me slipping on day 1 and getting limmed LMAO
Suppose I might just be a bad mafia member for a while, but there’s always gonna be room to improve so hey! It’s fine.


If there’s any criticism I have for you Prism, it’s just to not do whatever that argument with ProHawk was, especially not in a newbie game
Honestly that whole thing took a major toll on my motivation to play, and it’s a huge blur in my mind at this point. It was a lot of repetitive posts with points I didn’t fully absorb the information from and it kept dragging on. I think it’s something I have to work on and improve engaging with arguments that I don’t fully understand and keeping my motivation up. However, there’s probably something to be said on the way you two handled that? I don’t have any ground to stand on though, I’m just a poor little newbie who hammered an unCCd cop

[Meuh]