Newbie 2109: Taco Hemingway | Game Over

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Well, Hello AV! Willing to hammer me, huh~?

When I got this town role PM?

For Shame!

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Also someone shoule Unvote, given I'm at L-1.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

If AV hammers me before we enter this game in proper, kill them tomorrow

[Lady Lambdadelta]

NK 15 is scum.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

VOTE: Dionysus Probably evil.

Town(by exclusion)FroggyMaybe, CCGeek, AurorusVox, Space, Weuler, Wayward Son


Scum:Dionysus, Fredrick A Campbell

VOTE: Fredrick A Campbell

(Their reactions to Dionysus being E-2 are awful)

This is a bad bad bad look. These are NK15 first two posts.

NK15 votes Dio, says Dio is scum in post 2 but swaps to Frederick without much to say besides both of them have bad reactions.

So what made Frederick's worse? And why is NK15 still here over the bad reaction from the actual person who was being pressured?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

The team is likely Dio and NK15. Pick one and kill them today with me.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Vote: NK15

[Lady Lambdadelta]

A fascinating pop in! From a player who knows I have o ly just joined the gane to say the game has stagnated the MOMENT I begin to reinvograte the game.

Are you afraid of what happens if I'm not hammered soon?

I think you know that calling this game stagnating when two new active players have come in to reinvigorate it is a lie.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

A fascinating pop in! From a player who knows I have o ly just joined the gane to say the game has stagnated the MOMENT I begin to reinvograte the game.

Are you afraid of what happens if I'm not hammered soon?

I think you know that calling this game stagnating when two new active players have come in to reinvigorate it is a lie.

This was to Dio not Weuler

[Lady Lambdadelta]

A fascinating pop in! From a player who knows I have o ly just joined the gane to say the game has stagnated the MOMENT I begin to reinvograte the game.

Are you afraid of what happens if I'm not hammered soon?

I think you know that calling this game stagnating when two new active players have come in to reinvigorate it is a lie.

No. The game had stagnated. State your case if you want but I am comfortable with you being eliminated.

Go on and tell me why that is.

Why are you comfortable with my slot being eliminated?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Let's expand the question too.

Why are you comfortable with an elimination after a stagnated vote when that almosy invariably means that the eliminee is town and that the townies have an unchallenged assumption that is wrong holding them in this status quo?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

That's not an answer. Why am I scum, Dio?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Why are you dodging my questions and giving generalized answers?

Is it perhaps that when put on the spot you don't have an answer that will hold up to scrutiny?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Because I feel you are giving me confidence right now. Certainty.

And for someone so certain you have shockingly little to say om the matter besides "let's wrap it up here folks"

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Because I feel you are giving me confidence right now. Certainty.

And for someone so certain you have shockingly little to say om the matter besides "let's wrap it up here folks"

Your predecessor was all over the place. Going back and forth on reads like a metronome. When pressed his defence was that he was behaving scummy on purpose because reasons. The way you have jumped in so aggressively swinging for others is giving cornered scum desperately trying to survive the day. It's not fooling me.

Oh? Let's go take a look and see if these buzzwords hold any water.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Ahahahahahahhaah

That's a terrible description of his reads.

He starts off scum reading a pair, then gives his logic for a town read on space which he maintains.

He changes his scum reads because he feels humble and suspects that the hard scum reads on him are town. This isn't something a scum player who wants to avoid dying would do.

He then interacts with Weu and switches his read there. Again, this is a townie read progression from a player who is lost and genuinely sorting the game.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

What you describe does my work for me. It shows an unconfident player flipping his reads trying to solve the game with a very easy profession of reads to see if you read him in ISO.

In other words... A townie.

What would be the scum motivation of flip floppong this much? It would be much better to say... Confidently push for a desth and then reevaluate after the townie dies, no?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

In essence... Your argument doesn't hold any water. The motivations kg the player's actions you described were town.

You on the other hand fit the bill for scum perfectly.

Lurking massively to end of day to avoid blood on yoyr hands and when a replacement finally comes in and starts making waves you feel a need to add pressure to ensure their death.

That. Is. Scum 101.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I must return to work now, but I really like Dio/NK15 for a scum team here and I suspect you will get a lot mpre information today from killing one of those slots over defaulting to a now dead status quo.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

VOTE: Dionysus Probably evil.

Town(by exclusion)FroggyMaybe, CCGeek, AurorusVox, Space, Weuler, Wayward Son


Scum:Dionysus, Fredrick A Campbell

VOTE: Fredrick A Campbell

(Their reactions to Dionysus being E-2 are awful)

This is a bad bad bad look. These are NK15 first two posts.

NK15 votes Dio, says Dio is scum in post 2 but swaps to Frederick without much to say besides both of them have bad reactions.

So what made Frederick's worse? And why is NK15 still here over the bad reaction from the actual person who was being pressured?

Post 9 was actually a RVS vote, so... yeah.

It was also post 1 before you said with confidence Dio and Fred were scum.

So why swap from Duo to Fred?

And tell me, with Duo acting scummy in the thread as of so far, what happened to yoyr scumread on them?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Well that was certainly an aggressive approach to the game

Aggressive, certainly.

But it's how I play. It's Rise of the Phoenix not Rise of the Lamb.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Also fuck my phone autocorrecting Dio to Duo

[Lady Lambdadelta]

LLD! What a blast from the past!

Please can you give me a read on WS?

I was about to ask you to reconcile your paired read with the NK post where he asked me to consider Fred-Dio. But then I realised they -if- your slot is town, then that’s an easy suspicion to then later dismiss (because the pair can no longer be true). Personally though, NK is my second strongest townread, so I won’t be voting them today.

Pedit: NK pushed me when it looked like I’d dropped my Dio suspicion. I don’t think they’ve let Dio slide by.

———

My primary concern is that we end up with no consensus and no elimination; there isn’t a great deal of time to organise another wagon. My secondary issue here is that if anyone is capable of turning a scumread into a townread - regardless of alignment - I think you’d be a good shout for it. I mean, I’m already feeling like not voting for you! My tertiary concern would be running up another claim and risking outing a PR and we eliminate Fred slot anyway.

@Dio, it’s not about no one wanting to eliminate Fred at the moment, it’s about giving people time to post their final reads. With the risk of being night killed, I need to make sure I’m contributing as much as I can at the end of the day to support town going forward. LLD is here to post content and whether that slot is eliminated or not, we get valuable information from seeing what they have to say.

———

Weuler, to be clear, have you unvoted because you believe them to be town, or because you were worried about someone hammering before LLD could post their views?

I'll give you a WS read when I get home and have better ISO access.

I get the fear of me but also consider the benefit of me and my reads.

Read Frederic again under the lens they were humbled by the pressure on them and trying to find a solving foothold they believed in.

And then read the people making arguments about fear of running up other claims.

It's way worse to kill a townie day 1 with little info gained than possibly force a claim. This setup has win equity with a day 1 mass claim. More equity than with a day 1 town elimination.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

But if there is one thing I can alleviate your concern of its this.

There will be an elimination today. I will guarantee it.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

So work on not letting your reads stagnate, work with me to find scum and we will gather the votes to kill them together.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Also AV, then where are the Dio votes?

If you NK and I are all suspicious of Dio, why not create a Dio wagon?

I admit that NK's response to my push is much more town than Dio's was. It's my preference to kill Dio today now anyway.

If I'm scum, from NK's perspective I would be bussing right?

So hop aboard my bus and let's build that wagon.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Well that was certainly an aggressive approach to the game

Aggressive, certainly.

But it's how I play. It's Rise of the Phoenix not Rise of the Lamb.

Aggressive play is my preference too, where have you been? This game before your arrival was far too clinical.

Shame you're scum

I don't generally play newbie games, but KingTroll is someone I pulled from another site over to this site and I saw an opportunity to play this game with them spook

I took the opportunity~

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Sorry I can’t really communicate a lot (still need to get home), but while Lady brings up good points I’m trying to think why Fredrick left in the first place. If I was a VT like he claimed, I would’ve sticked around even if I died because of that. Makes me think that Fredrick wasn’t a VT and could be a different role (either a scum or PR). Either one feels like it explains the actions by his slot, so I’m unsure if I wish to risk this Lim.

Lady, what is your thoughts on the other wagon of Wayward?

So a few things

1) we can't discuss replaceouts.
2) I am 100% a Vanilla Townie.

I'll give WS read and wagon thoughts when I get home from work.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I understand the desire to discuss it, for sure. It's just a site rule so I wanted to stop you before you got in trouble.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

@LLD I think it’s disingenuous to suggest that a Fred-slot elimination is one that offers “little info gained.” My biggest question is why Fred never voted WS when he expressed suspicions of them. For a long time, WS was at E-2 and they never voted for them. KT is also somewhat tied to your slot (that’s a little harder to parse). But I do think the elimination gives info on those two in particular.

Actually, I’d love a read on KT too when you are back.

@NK @weuler: how do both of you feel about LLD’s push on Dio?

Its literqlly stagnated so much that no one can seem to give me a clear idea about why he is scummy. The game stalled and now peiple are arguing " well we just have to kill that slot".

I feel very justified in saying its a low info elimination on a townie.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I will look into KT as well

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I am home but also worn out and exhausted so I'll get to this a bit later.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

are all y'all new to mafia

i think i vibe with players by talking to them so i'd like to get talking

thanks for the welcome

KingTroll is not, Vox is an old friend of mine too, and the way Dio talks they're definitely not new either. NK is not new but you know that.

Oh, but I'm new. I'm really in experienced Fen, can you teach me~?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

... really

in experienced

Fen, can you teach me~?

I see what you did there

:3

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Vote: Dio

ALL ABOARD ME JOLLY BOYS GIRLS AND OTHER GENDERS OF CHOICE!

[Lady Lambdadelta]

WS is kinda scummy, but their posts have this genuine ring to them? It's weird. The scummiest thing they did was try to connect KT to my slot's death via claiming it's like a chainsaw but... I honestly can see a townie makign that argument, it's not GOOD but it doesn't mean it's not town.

WS slot is one I'll need to see more from, and given it's STD, I'm sure we will.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

lol KT is town

one quick ISO look and oh dude that's town

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I think KT has some decent reason to be on WS, I'll need to look at CCGeek and Space

[Lady Lambdadelta]

CCGeek going in a pile....

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Space goes in the same list.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Okkkkkkay.

So!

Here is the list:

NK15
KingTroll
CCGeek
Space

Do you know what this list has in common?

They all have Dionysus at the bottom of their reads list, as scum and have all managed to find the time to either vote for LHF in Fred or to push WS instead.

The WS push by KT while keeping Dio on list is interesting IFF KT has a partner on the Fred wagon and was expecting Fred to die, then to be able to do WS. That partner can be Dio.

Space literally does BOTH.

So... for me

If Dio flips scum, one of these 4 is the partner. It won't be my slot, it probably won't be AV who could have let the clock run out on a Dionysus push, and it's probably not Weuler either.

So for me... if we do Dio today and Dio flips scum, this is the order

Myself, AV, Weuler town

WS- Possible scum counter wagon to mine
KT, CCGeek, NK15, Space- Possible Dio partners, in various orders.

At that point we will have some extra roles to be able to claim and possibly use to clear some people via a claiming method I will grab you from another newbie I played a dead ass long time ago.

But in my mind, if Dio scum, you can be nearly certain of AV and Weuler town. If Dio's town, I'll be alive tomorrow anyway to re-evaluate cause they won't shoot me.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Yo we have like 30 hours before deadline.

@CCG why are you providing so little content in your last few posts?

Been busy today, and only kept up with the current page, am catching up on the last 2 pages rn.

Vote: Dio

ALL ABOARD ME JOLLY BOYS GIRLS AND OTHER GENDERS OF CHOICE!

Aye aye Cap'n! Or wait, would the captain technically be Aurorus?
Anyways, VOTE: Diony

sus

. Will ISO him after I catch up.

AV is the captain, I'm just the first mate!

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Survivalism is not a scum tell.

Using it as the only reason to continue your scum read against me is a scummy continuation read from a former LHF who you could say practically anything about and be fine, and now it's harder.

As it happens... I'm sorry your easy town elimination suddenly morphed into Me, but.... adapt or perish.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

You're calling me scrambling to find an elimination that isn't me, but Survivalism is not a scum tell.

Of course I'm being aggressive and seeking scum this rapidly when my neck is on the line and there are less than 2 days remaining in the day.

When players at the beginning of the day told "eh we will just kill your slot anyway" and sought to maintain apathy.

Of course I'm going to make moves to shake up that paradigm and protect myself from dying while killing someone I think is scum.

It's not "Scrambling" or.. Scrabbling? It's survivalism and it's a Non Alignment Indicative trait.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

You're calling me scrambling to find an elimination that isn't me, but Survivalism is not a scum tell.

Of course I'm being aggressive and seeking scum this rapidly when my neck is on the line and there are less than 2 days remaining in the day.

When players at the beginning of the day told "eh we will just kill your slot anyway" and sought to maintain apathy.

Of course I'm going to make moves to shake up that paradigm and protect myself from dying while killing someone I think is scum.

It's not "Scrambling" or.. Scrabbling? It's survivalism and it's a Non Alignment Indicative trait.

By all means be aggressive. But you haven't been seeking scum. You've been hounding me just because I had a firm read on your predecessor. That's literally what made you target me. If you're town and you manage to get me out today, you're gonna be so embarrassed. It'll be nice to see!

Except this is a misrepresentation.

I began on NK15, gave reads on AV, WS, KT and Space individually and then sought out the WS wagon to view some more reads for future depending on if I was right or wrong about you.

I've literally done nothing but hunt for scum since I arrived.

Attempting to represent that as only hounding onto you for being suspicious of me is not only catagorically false, it's also likely argued from a place of frustration because you felt strongly you had my slot dead to rights and now you're on the ropes.

These reactions you are giving to the status quo shifting are not townie, for the record.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

CCGeek, I'm also in a heavily suspected slot.

I expect if Dio flips scum, I'll be shot for being dangerous and more or less proven town.

If Dio flips town though, it'll mean I, knowing I'm a townie, and scum who know I'm town, will not likely shoot me because they believe they can get me miseliminated.

I get I'm competent and skilled but as long as I'm suspicious, being shot is a lower possibility.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

That's all the line was trying to say. The post was trying to setup for the world I think we are in where Dio is scum and I die tonight and leave you all behind my reads.

If Dio is town, I think I won't die and I'll have time to re-evaluate and restate my opinions anyway so I only need to leave a Will for the first scenario.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Lady town and KT scum is an interesting thought

If KT scum, do you not think Dio scum naturally follows?

A lot of people have that connection built, do you disagree?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

You can continue to call them obvious scum as much as you like but at every turn I have provided counter argument to your MINIMAL evidence and claims that you have yet to be able to provide a reasonable response to, nor have you been able to tell me why I'm scummy in any reasonable fashion besides saying I'm scrambling which isn't anything at all.

You've been effectively utilizing buzzwords and general "feelings" about things to try and drive things forward but just because you say someone is obvious scum doesn't mean they are.

Frederic was an inexperienced townie who got wrapped up on himself and I'm here giving town, hunting scum and checking you at every turn.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

You can continue to call them obvious scum as much as you like but at every turn I have provided counter argument to your MINIMAL evidence and claims that you have yet to be able to provide a reasonable response to, nor have you been able to tell me why I'm scummy in any reasonable fashion besides saying I'm scrambling which isn't anything at all.

You've been effectively utilizing buzzwords and general "feelings" about things to try and drive things forward but just because you say someone is obvious scum doesn't mean they are.

Frederic was an inexperienced townie who got wrapped up on himself

and I'm here giving town, hunting scum and checking you at every turn.

BIB: sorry, what? Inexperienced townie players do stupid things like claim when they shouldn't, believe obvious lies and make other mistakes due to not fully understanding game mechanics. Inexperienced townie players do not embark on a game of 3d chess where they attempt to act suspiciously on purpose. You're claiming I have provided minimal evidence for my claims - you haven't provided any evidence for this one beyond your word.

Yes, I agree, this bolded line is absolutely bullshit.

Oh hey there NK 15, tell me, is Dio scum for you?

Cause Dio's on L-1, so, today would be the day to prove you genuinely have that read and it's not just something you're saying for the sake of saying it.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

You can continue to call them obvious scum as much as you like but at every turn I have provided counter argument to your MINIMAL evidence and claims that you have yet to be able to provide a reasonable response to, nor have you been able to tell me why I'm scummy in any reasonable fashion besides saying I'm scrambling which isn't anything at all.

You've been effectively utilizing buzzwords and general "feelings" about things to try and drive things forward but just because you say someone is obvious scum doesn't mean they are.

Frederic was an inexperienced townie who got wrapped up on himself

and I'm here giving town, hunting scum and checking you at every turn.

BIB: sorry, what? Inexperienced townie players do stupid things like claim when they shouldn't, believe obvious lies and make other mistakes due to not fully understanding game mechanics. Inexperienced townie players do not embark on a game of 3d chess where they attempt to act suspiciously on purpose. You're claiming I have provided minimal evidence for my claims - you haven't provided any evidence for this one beyond your word.

Yes, I agree, this bolded line is absolutely bullshit.

Oh hey there NK 15, tell me, is Dio scum for you?

Cause Dio's on L-1, so, today would be the day to prove you genuinely have that read and it's not just something you're saying for the sake of saying it.

Interesting that you ignored me but have something to say to NK15 here.

Why do I need to talk to you? At this point I'm fairly convinced you are scum, so what would I be convincing you of?

I'm talking to OTHER people, not you. I don't gain anything from responding directly to you. I will prove your points wrong and sell my points to people I think are town.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Oh hey there NK 15, tell me, is Dio scum for you?

Cause Dio's on L-1, so, today would be the day to prove you genuinely have that read and it's not just something you're saying for the sake of saying it.

I'm not willing to lim Dio if the alternative is you.
It doesn't make sense. Why should I lim an unclaimed suspect when I have a claimed suspect? Especially when that claimed suspect is trying to get the unclaimed suspect to Intent?
So... you haven't addressed that obvious BS on Campbell yet. Why did you write that?

Because it's true? Just from reading his posts he clearly had 0 concept what he was doing and 0 direction or intent with it despite trying to solve the game desperately.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

You can continue to call them obvious scum as much as you like but at every turn I have provided counter argument to your MINIMAL evidence and claims that you have yet to be able to provide a reasonable response to, nor have you been able to tell me why I'm scummy in any reasonable fashion besides saying I'm scrambling which isn't anything at all.

You've been effectively utilizing buzzwords and general "feelings" about things to try and drive things forward but just because you say someone is obvious scum doesn't mean they are.

Frederic was an inexperienced townie who got wrapped up on himself

and I'm here giving town, hunting scum and checking you at every turn.

BIB: sorry, what? Inexperienced townie players do stupid things like claim when they shouldn't, believe obvious lies and make other mistakes due to not fully understanding game mechanics. Inexperienced townie players do not embark on a game of 3d chess where they attempt to act suspiciously on purpose. You're claiming I have provided minimal evidence for my claims - you haven't provided any evidence for this one beyond your word.

Yes, I agree, this bolded line is absolutely bullshit.

Oh hey there NK 15, tell me, is Dio scum for you?

Cause Dio's on L-1, so, today would be the day to prove you genuinely have that read and it's not just something you're saying for the sake of saying it.

Interesting that you ignored me but have something to say to NK15 here.

Why do I need to talk to you? At this point I'm fairly convinced you are scum, so what would I be convincing you of?

I'm talking to OTHER people, not you. I don't gain anything from responding directly to you. I will prove your points wrong and sell my points to people I think are town.

What an odd reply...? Nobody needs to respond to anyone, but ignoring someone when they make a very valid point is, uh, scummy. If the situation was reversed you would be all over me for this.

Your point ISN'T valid... and you're scum, so anything you say is intended to kill me... which you're trying to do.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

hmm. this wagon appeared out of nowhere a couple of pages ago. do people think it's pure?

In my opinion? Yeah, probably.

There's no need to bus here for scum, they could just kill me.

I know I'm town, so it makes people who are willing to swap less likely to be doing so for the sake of a scum incentive.

Because I know it's not a scum player swapping to save a scum player.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

NK15 out here explicitly trying to rolefish and kill me for being VT.

Hey, Dio is at L-1, and hasn't claimed a town power role. Guess what that means, NK15?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

i don't think i want to vote dionysus today, i think there are far worse slots tbh

we don't have time for another counter wagon, also Dio's scum.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Like, STD, saying what you're saying is effectively setting up to vote on someone you called town like 5 posts ago.

There's no space to do anyone but Dio or I today at this point.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

like STD if you vote me here over Dio it's literally a scumclaim after you called me town not 5 posts ago

[Lady Lambdadelta]

hmm. this wagon appeared out of nowhere a couple of pages ago. do people think it's pure?

the dio wagon? nah brother, there was some general sus on dio ever since he started posting (initially, courtesy of me), and my vote was on him for a major part of this day. Aurorus is more or less the most universally townread person and Dio is my strongest SR. The actual analysis of this wagon should factor in Space and LLD's votes IMO. Space's post is the one I do not like, and I do not claim to fully understand LLD. On that note, how likely is Space/Dio?
Space is the most universally nullread player, by the way.

Also, why is no one talking about LLD/Dio?

You're out of your mind if you think Dio and I are scum together here. We never win, because I'm a VT claim.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

LLD what the heck i didn't say i was voting for you lol

I mean, okay but how can we have any space to switch it this late in? The two dunderheads are never not voting me and you would need to gather 4 other troops for another wagon

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I need sleep, apologies. It's 3 am here.

It's fine, we're good. Sleep well.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

i mean it just means i'm in a pickle

pedit: are you crucifying LLD for not knowing Fredrick was SE? what am i looking at?

They're hopping on my use of the word inexperienced to describe how Frederic played like he didn't know what the fuck he was doing. Which I think is a pretty fair description? To be honest?

It's.... it's ridiculous.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

What gets me most, STD, is I kind of doubt both NK15 and Dio can be scum here together anymore because if they are they're literally losing when I flip town. They both die back to back after that, so...

[Lady Lambdadelta]

It's time to hammer

[Lady Lambdadelta]

They'll have time to digest overnight. Unless you have anything else to say?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

In this situation... We should do the following.

If the remaining power role is a friendly neighbour, they should simply claim at this point.

Otherwise, I think we let the doctor or JK try their hand one more night from anon and work around it for today. Especially if it is jk/roleblocker

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Actually.... We need to know if we are in the JK world or not the absolute most.

There might be a way to.... Organize a claim in such a way...

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Possibly

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Basically JK worlds provide possible false info. And scum know what world we are in.

My thoughts are that we proxy claim jailkeepers. Everyone claims JK wnd who they targetted N1. That way... We can have more info.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

That is such bad logic. FN is not better than a IC right now and is actively worse if we run them up today or they get shot tonight.

FN should claim as help us as an IC today.

Doctor can claim too, it's probably fine but JK proxy claims where no one knows who the real JK is is the only way to do that safely.

NK, are you like... Bad at mafia or just scum?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Like its polarizing for me, because if you genuinely don't get this, saying ad such is a town tell.

But if you are clever enough to get proxy claims, resistance to them is a scum tell.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Bruh, they won't know who to RB because everyone proxy claims. It's just an additional info claim for possible use later.

Additionally, FN claim is always correct. Its ALWAYS WRONG TO ALLOW FN TO SIT ON THEIR INFO INSTEAD OF CLEARING.

FN is arguably MORE USELESS THAN DOCTOR HERE. all they do its tell others at night that they are town. They don't solve any bonus townies. They are a literal IC who possobly could have targetted scum last night and scum could be killing them tonight. It's high odds.

If you are okay with doctor claiming FN shouls be claiming too.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

If FN is NK'd without being able to give their thoughts and lead town, it's a total waste.

IC's use is best used to lead confused towns

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Like Doctor and FN are the same role at this point except Doctor could theoretically save a kill if he didn't claim.

All FN does is tell other playera they are town. Which can be scum. Which can get them killed.

So being okay with Doctor claiming and NOT FN claiming is fucking weird.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I'm severely rolling my eyes at "not all IC's are good leaders" my dude.

My brother in christ.

They are by definition useful leaders because if they are bad enough to be strung up it removes a free push for scum and they can direct discussion and jf they are good enough to lead they are already in a good spot to use it.

This logic of yours is pointless.

Half the point of the JK proxy claim is to see who would target what, and use that to read them in later days.

Like... Are you seriously this backwards.

The scum have an RB and a kill each night in JK world. They will chip away at the odds eventually. There are 7 of us left, 2 of us are scum so among 5 targets they get a 40 % chance at it anyway.

Night1 JK target does inform us a decent amount if you can reaso. Who is likely yo make kills from what scum pairing and logically sort yhat way.

In general you are denying information on ALL fronts.

FN and Doctor are equally useless in terms of power and the only reason to hide them would be if you think they don't die tonight.

Except, again... 5 townies alive . in that world they rolecopped one of them, 4. They shoot and rolecop another tonight, assuming we don't hit the role cop today.

That's bad bad bad odds that FN or Doctor kice through tonight. A doctor save hard clears 2 people, is the worth of it. Not about the numbers about cleared townies.

Doctor has more value than FN does to not claim. Doctor could clear an additional townie.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

@LLD What “false info” would we gain from JK proxy claims at this stage? I like the proxy method but not sure what it’ll tell us, since the kill went through and even if the JK hit mafia we wouldn’t be able to distinguish that from town at this point based on the JK alone?

Pedit: but you’re saying who would target who, at least 6/7 proxy claims would be fake anyway??

This is my only thing: does the maths work out that someone who’s JK’d is less likely scum (1/7 slot chance ie the non killing scum vs 2/7 slot chance at being either killing or non-killing scum)? So if an eventual JK flip occurs we can look back and see how it fits with other peoples reads on that slot?

You also ignored my question about the timing of your vote. I’d like an answer to that.

———

@NK15 what was that vote / unvote about?

———

Also the value in the FN/IC doesn’t even need to come from them leading town - it also comes from limiting the possible candidates for elimination.

Pedit: LLD argues similar above about FN claim. Good if they’re good, good if they’re bad.

I don’t see the value in JK claiming (proxy claiming is better if we go down that route), I think doc should stay hidden and try for a protect tonight, and FN I think depends on how the day is panning out? Like if they’re in trouble / things might be going their way without claiming anyway?

Re: Timing of my vote, it was just a mattee of forgetting to move it until you voted and I was like "oh right I need to move mine".

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Weuler what’s your read on CCG?

NK/LLD do you have any non-mechanics things you’d like to pick up on? Do either of you think the mechanics talk is alignment indicative at this stage?

———

Just to try to put the mechanics stuff to bed asap and as clearly as possible, can anyone who has any view on claims complete the following for your opinion:

Doc: claim / don’t claim
JK: claim / don’t claim / claim by proxy*
FN: claim / don’t claim / wait and see**

*LLD’s idea of each person saying who they “jailed”

**by which I mean, if the FN is already happy with how the day is developing, claiming may not be necessary

Eg for me -

Doc: don’t claim
JK: claim by proxy
FN: wait and see

Wait and see is terrible, because it just informs scum and not town and ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

[Lady Lambdadelta]

In what way??

Scum know what world we are in because they know which roles they have.

So if we do wait and see it fully informs their shots, based on the suspicions of the players who are in the game. It near guaranteeeees that we're seeing our PR flop up dead tomorrow without being of any use to us.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

How do you as a new player with an account that joined literal today know the term VI?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Regardless, your description of what happened between the person who was pushing me to die when I joined the game and I is.... very incomplete and at best a fairly weak shot. It feels almost like you expect it will be called out for being generally empty as a comment, which you sort of cover iwth the "what did you expect" part of your reads list.

But it's empty all the same. You're criticizing me for choosing not to directly engage, one time, with a person who not only did I think was scum but also was the ONLY AVAILABLE COUNTERWAGON TO ME.

You're using the same bad arguments others used to push Frederic, and notably, here's a little tidbit for you.

Does scum LLD shoot the player she invited to this website who has a SOLID TOWNREAD on her slot over night? Cause the KT shot wasn't a tracker hunting shot, it was N1, there's no info or other tells that KT was a power role.

KT was shot for being townie and for being RIGHT. What was he right about, I wonder? What elimination would he have opposed today, do you think?

Even if you think KT would have re-evaluated on me, isn't it better for me to shoot someone who was shown to like...not be willing to listen to me?

How about the person who hard thought I was scum until I said that Dio and he couldn't BOTH be scum here, at which point he called me town... and then walked into today with a vote on me again.

You don't think I shoot that player and try to reason with KT, AV and STD, all players who I have respect from and for and could possibly sell on me being town and giving me a shot?

Cause if I'm scum here, I'd take that one day, kill a townie, shoot one of them in their face, and eat my rope tomorrow.

and that's 5:2 today, 4:2 3:2 after that plan

3:1 after they finally kill me

2:1 after the night kill, and I setup my partner in ELO to win the game for us without a whole lot of connectives.

The KT kill is the SINGLE worst choice for me as scum in this position, it's nonsensical.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Also, Why is that the first thing you mention and not the fact your my highest scumread?

Cause I'm writing a large post you nerd, obviousy. I wanted to ask the seperate non sequitor in a different post and it was easier to ask it first.

You pretending it's somehow scummy that my confusion at someone in a newbie slot using a completely outdated term i haven't seen anyone use in a fucking age came before my decry of your scumread on me is... wild. Very wild.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Like, anyone who is scumreading me at this point needs to strongly consider why the fuck scum!LLD shoots KT in the face over any of the slots way more suspicious of me and/or willing to kill me.

Like Weu who ended the day voting me, or NK15, who was so very clearly going to default back to me after calling me town yesterday.

If you can't give an answer to that that isn't "for this WIFOM, obviously" which... given how few votes are in the town today.... terrible argument, then you lack real situational reads on me.

I'm just not scum here, because I never shoot KT here.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

AV would it be weird if I said a lot of this game for me hinges on whether you're town or not, and that if you were FN or Doctor I would prefer you claim at this point so I could work from that position?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Bonus thought for people who think "well, what if you thought KT would flip on you and call you scum today?"

A casual reminder that the same thing that initially damned me here, being a replacement, is what saves me when it comes to KT. KT didn't town read me, though they did find me town. They initially strongly town read my PREDECESSOR. Someone who, I think we can all admit has a lot less capability for subterfuge.

KT would have to backtrack on BOTH those independent reads to flip on me today.

There's no WIFOM value to shooting them, it's better to have them alive to protect me. There's no role hunting value, I mean.... there's no real clues beyond KT being town.

KT was VERY obviously town, but that only lends itself to why they could have led me into a better spot today being alive, if I were scum.

The math, the situational game, the current position, none of it makes sense for an LLD!Scum killing KT.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Regardless, your description of what happened between the person who was pushing me to die when I joined the game and I is.... very incomplete and at best a fairly weak shot. It feels almost like you expect it will be called out for being generally empty as a comment, which you sort of cover iwth the "what did you expect" part of your reads list.

But it's empty all the same. You're criticizing me for choosing not to directly engage, one time, with a person who not only did I think was scum but also was the ONLY AVAILABLE COUNTERWAGON TO ME.

You're using the same bad arguments others used to push Frederic, and notably, here's a little tidbit for you.

Does scum LLD shoot the player she invited to this website who has a SOLID TOWNREAD on her slot over night? Cause the KT shot wasn't a tracker hunting shot, it was N1, there's no info or other tells that KT was a power role.

KT was shot for being townie and for being RIGHT. What was he right about, I wonder? What elimination would he have opposed today, do you think?

Even if you think KT would have re-evaluated on me, isn't it better for me to shoot someone who was shown to like...not be willing to listen to me?

How about the person who hard thought I was scum until I said that Dio and he couldn't BOTH be scum here, at which point he called me town... and then walked into today with a vote on me again.

You don't think I shoot that player and try to reason with KT, AV and STD, all players who I have respect from and for and could possibly sell on me being town and giving me a shot?

Cause if I'm scum here, I'd take that one day, kill a townie, shoot one of them in their face, and eat my rope tomorrow.

and that's 5:2 today, 4:2 3:2 after that plan

3:1 after they finally kill me

2:1 after the night kill, and I setup my partner in ELO to win the game for us without a whole lot of connectives.

The KT kill is the SINGLE worst choice for me as scum in this position, it's nonsensical.

Point 1: That's the exact reason you would do it though. Because you can just go up and say: "Why would I kill the person I invited, robbing them the chance to play?" It's a flimsy defense.

Point 2: Firstly, We literally have no evidence for them being correct. Plus, wouldn't that be too obvious? It would make no sense. and if you say WIFOM because they expect us think this, That's going into heavy mindgames and an infinite loop of the cycle of thought or whatever the fuck when it's simply I picked this person to die with some medium thought behind it mixed with deception, AKA mafia at it's core in a sentence. And the 2nd line? It's just the same game of thought with a slightly different context.

Point 3: Oh wow! almost like people change opinions when massive things to go against it happen. You got proven wrong with the push you started. Almost like that makes people think you're less credible! the thing you started.. wrong? like said, almost like it does do that! no, I'm not trying to be condescending, but I think that isn't hard to work out.

Point 4: Because that only works on paper. People aren't gonna go with you immediately to help you kill person 2, When you were proven wrong in the vote, and someone who was against you died, pretty suspicious that your opposition died after you being wrong, huh? Also, as a scum player you link back to other scum. It's easier to win in 4:2 than 3:1, which are both easier than 3:2 and 2:1 most of the time. People are given less options, and more info for the same amount of scum, they obviously find you out easier.

Also thanks for trying to get back about my reads Aurora, I'm not always infallible and it's good to have people I find suspicious give arguments to why they are not, especially good ones, because It might change my mind on the town player being scum in my head to the town player being town in my head.

Did you really just, in the post where I said "find an argument better than WIFOM" say "WIFOM, That's WHY you would do it, LOL!"

Really.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Also, bruh, can you use a colour to highlight shit that isn't LITERALLY IMPOSSIBLE TO READ.

Cheers.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I'm going to bed.

My final thoughts before that are whether I can bother to treat this new slot as being town in any world, given how fantatical they are. A complete refusal to engage with my argument in any kind of good faith means that if they ARE town, they're looking to go down in flames with me.

And even if I just say "well, fuck it I'll die today" this person giving THESE arguments, when I flip town HAS to die after I do.

So if we lose this game if they're town anyway, am I just supposed to push them back and hope they're scum? Feels like I don't really get to solve this game in any capacity this way but it's also literally the only possible win town has with this person playing this way so.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I feel like LLD cutting off "WIFOM" as an option is something i've done as scum before to try and get ahead of an argument. i have to think about this a little bit.

i feel like inviting him to the site doesn't matter if you're playing the game you're going to go for it. if you suspected KT of being a PR you would go for it regardless of how much you knew them. if you wanted to get rid of a highly tr player you would go for it. if you wanted to strategically set up a WIFOM argument only to knee cap it right away, you would go for it. i get that it seems unlikely but there are reasons for it and i can't disregard them without at least thinking about them.

My dude if I suspected him of being a PR I double wouldn't shoot him with his Fredericbtownread.

I'd pocket that mofo.

This isn't a situation where the end result is in question. It's a combination of factors. He knows me + he town read my predecessor hard + he town read me hard. It's so easy to have him live 1 more day, kill a townie, shoot him tonight and then win off that.

Like have a little respect for my simply that I wouldn't say myself up to me on the verge of elimination two days in a row

[Lady Lambdadelta]

my lady i don't know if you're just saying that

there's also a partner to consider, you didn't make this decision alone if you are scum

Is there any player in this lobby you think My Arrogant Ass allows to make a kill I don't approve?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

i mean i doubt it

i just don't think it's outside the realm of possibility you set this scenario up

It's an actively worse scenario for me in almost every way.

Like I get that my whole thing is that nothing is outside my realms of possible acting, I'm a lunatic.

But even for a lunatic this... Would be a lot

[Lady Lambdadelta]

?

What possible crumb can there be that means literally anything here?

Tracker gets no results until day 2, there was a kill last night so JK results are useful but not indicstive, FN only tells others they are town and there was a kill last night so ditto to doctor.

What crumb?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Like you are gonna have to claim it at this point, my dude.

Between NK15 completely ignoring my argument and only going for the "friends" part of it and you making some fake as crumb claim that LEGITMATELY CANNOT EXIST BY WAY THE ROLES WORK

Neither of you has an ounce of credit.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

i just want to talk about your reads not the crumb surely that's not all that's driving those reads

My dude, save me.

I'm stuck between NK "I'm ignoring all of your logic to cherry pick one aspect of your post that isn't even relevant to the point you are making out of context" 15 and Newguy "I have a super secret crumb that blows the game wide open in an open setup with a known section of roles that literally cannot lead to a crumb" mcwhygodwhy

[Lady Lambdadelta]

i think if scum already can find the crumb it's probably good to let town take a crack at it but it's up to you.

im pretty bad at finding crumbs myself so i don't know what it is. if you want to keep it hidden that's your prerogative.

This is not a town response IMO. But I recognize saying that probably ensures I die today, so meh. Let's just let the newbies run themselves into the ground so they can learn I guess.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Fine, Fuck it.
There is a friendly neighbour, I know who they are. Now check reads post. Who is at the top? Why are they at the top with such flimsy evidence? Why would you and Weuler be wrong to put this guy in your possible scum catergory? Yeah I spelled it out. You all get it now, So I'll Just reveal it:

CCG - Friendly Neighbour

Sorry CCG, Mafia were gonna probably kill you anyways, but I've just confirmed it here. At least it clears you.

How did I crumb it? I basically said it in the response post: Why are my reads like that, specifically? Why was I so opposed to your reads, Fenrir? why was it against the Information in the game? Because I was targetted by the friendly neighbour, who both of you considered very scummy. Also, NK15? With the interactions between a

Confirmed Town

and a person I heavily see as

Scum, Mainly their Predecessor

gave off just town vibes. Simply said, With only 2

Scum,

I doubt NK15 can be scum by a moderate amount. as Said in reads post: At a lower degree of town than the person I know is confirmed town, but still higher than everyone besides them.

?!?!?!?!

What the fuck does this have to do with the price of tea my dude

[Lady Lambdadelta]

So CCG is FN and messaged you it last night. Cool. What does that have to do with my alignment lmfao

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Honestly this logic only comes from town no scum is ever this in the weeds about this ever.

Cool. So 2 of AV STD NK and Weu?

STD/NK seems viable.

Weu is probbbbably just town honestly. Probably willing to bet the game on it.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

AV/STD feels a little disconnected.

But AV being unwilling to do NK yesterday leaves a connection there.

So AV/NK or STD/NK either way I should push for NK to die?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

If you do decide to kill me today, kill NK tomorrow then decide between STD and AV. Day 1 will be your guide there IDK.

It's obviously better if we do NK today first because then you have the extra elimination, but whether people are willing to give me that is another question.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Like at this point for me Weu Aklo and CCG can all be town and its 2 of the other 3. If that 3 I listed are all town and can find me as town, the game is over and we win because we have one miselimination.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Process of elimination, Process of elimination, And also just your god-awful Meta-Defense, your play last day, and your predecessor. Also, Hitting the one out of the ones I'm trying to say is town at a lower degree than the confirmed one? I mean It's not hard to see why, but either way, probably saying that got your grave dug, no matter your alignment, due to calling out 3 people as possible scum, with one of the people most town out of them being the common link, Either you get absolutely beat to death as mafia by town, or you get scum-hammered very, very quickly as town.

My dude, at this point do you even really think I'm scum or is this an ego check for you?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Like I'm trying REALLY hard not to just say "kay when I flip town kill Aklo tomorrow" so you can learn your lesson about ego tripping in mafia. I'm supposed to be SE so I'll play more nice, but the truth is I am town and you aren't making a while lot of sense.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I do really think your scum, but of cause, you on either alignment gets beat to death today. Pointing that out. Anyways, If it ends up your town for some god-forsaken reason somehow, we can go from there.

This is a bad way to play mafia.

I dont necessarily die today. Infact if I was willing to pretend I thought you were scum I could probably kill you over me today.

I've done it before. And scum will be on board because I'll be perma suspicious tomorrow.

So between the two of us, right now, you are the one making an error.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Been struggling with it all day. Even last night, the post I made before I went to bed. I have a massive townread on you but I feel somewhat obligated to push you because it's my only survival out and I don't trust your reading skills alive tomorrow because you'll probably kill Weu for some reason

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Because if I remove You CCG and myself from the picture, and look at the reminaing 4

1) Weu has no real buddy connections I can mark, i.e a AV/Weu team seems the most likely of those 4 pairings and even that seems hard to gather.
2) Weu has been actively solving in a way a lot of other players haven't
3) Weu has been acting without much agenda on both yesterday and today, including in posts like him clarifying whether he ended the day on me or not, and unvoting me when I asked for it, but then considering the wagons.

Weu to me reads as town. Am I 100% sure? No, but I'm sure enough that if I killed NK and he flipped scum and killed AV and he flipped town, then I'd always kill STD over Weu. And same for any other pairing in order. I cannot and do not see myself every thinking Weu more scummy than any of those 3, and since we only have 1 miselim it's important to consider those metrics.

then, AV/STD is suuuuuper disconnected. Their interactions DO NOT read like scum/scum so I'm left with NK being the common link the scum worlds I think can exist and then having one of the other two connected to him, which are both decent partner ships since one of them directly deflected from the other dying (AV) and the other's interactions with NK have been limited almost on purpose (STD).

[Lady Lambdadelta]

That's fucking why, my dude.

Because I observe the game and consider the options where town can win and I play for my wincondition no matter how much satisfaction it would give me to watch smug overconfident players eat crow and then lose the game for town on 1 for 1 trade.

Because I'm an SE and I have to actually try.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Boring, right?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Do you want any more good logical reasons why I have these reads or can I go back to the peaceful bliss of understanding that you're never going to change your mind on me because this is as much about ego for you as it is a read.

Because if it weren't about ego you'd be double triple checking your read on me now and maybe starting to come to the conclusion that oops maybe she's town.

Maybe she didn't kill the ONLY player in town who would have defended her today.

Maybe she IS making some kind of sense and actually trying to solve instead of pushing back on an obvious townie who she could probably get killed.

couldn't be, right?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Do your thing, bruv. I literally suicided my positional advantage in this town to play for finding scum over surviving. You're in control now. If you push me to die, I'll die today. And when I flip town, you'll be left with nothing but the understanding that you misplayed this heavily.

Ball is fully in your court, I'm going to go get high and watch anime with my girlfriend and husband. Peaceeeeeeeeeeee

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Also for the low chance you are town: No, I don't have that big of an ego and just want you gone without care for alignment, I'm pointing out the obvious, You either get beat to death by the town as mafia, or both of the mafia go on you to beat the shit out of you if you're town. This isn't saying I don't care about your alignment anymore, It's a high probability that either of these happen, on an alignment each. Also, If you are somehow town despite the pretty bad defense, You wouldn't be wrong to say the scum would have a massive advantage, They literally already do have an advantage right now, with the fact one or two of them are completely muddled in with other people that are town as Null/Probably-Town reads.

Every time you say it's not ego and then find a way to on the sly insult my defense when I'm quite literally giving up to not lose us the game, nor is it a particularly bad defense.

But honestly, you're now making my ego flare up, so this is your reminder that if I die, when I flip town it's YOUR fault for being an obvious VI.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

is there enough votes to eliminate NK without having to deal with the clown?

CCG, Weu, Me.... I'd need to probably talk STD or AV into it?

Well... maybe it's worth doing.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

To be clear, my vote is in spirit on NK15 but with 4 votes to eliminate and 2 people already on NK15, I'm going to not vote for the moment.

But do consider NK15 at Elim-1

[Lady Lambdadelta]

urge to kill

rising

[Lady Lambdadelta]

man i realllly should let CCG come back with that analysis of me so he gets all his thoughts in before he dies

but i wanna killll

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I really want that too, Because it would be a lot better for the game if that information was well out there.

yeah yeah yeah

i'll wait, don't worry. i'm being on my best behaviour for newbie game

[Lady Lambdadelta]

So all that said: does anyone fancy joining me over here in the world where we don’t save the dragons; we slay them?

Perhaps, I have admitted that STD has a sketchy ISO and he definitely should be the prime push D3. Not sure if we stop with the NK wagon though, evidence stacks up against him pretty significantly.

At this point it would surprise me if NK flips green.

If he does however, then I would start looking at the possible scum team STD/LLD. Unless Arko is scum then at that point this is the only reasonable scum team.

No consideration for AV in that world?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

is there anyone who doesn't want NK15 to die at this point?

that's kind of weirding me out. i mean it could be a bus but i'm starting to get nervous that scum are just fueling the fire into the lim that they want.

maybe i'm wrong about a lot of things this game.

Isn't AV trying to make you the kill right now?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

yeah but he still scumreads NK15

He's voting you right now.

With this much pressure on NK15, if you were partnered with them, wouldn't you try to sell people on another target while saying "yeah that dude's scummy still" right?

Like from your PoV, where you are town, that much should be obvious...

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Why does Arko claim CCG as the FN if he recieved the message and CCG wasn't claiming? He could have convinced CCG not to claim, pushed for my death harder and shot CCG at night.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Vote: Not Known 15

Can't see myself not voting here today, I think. The 3 people I have as my main town players are all voted together on NK, so.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

My reasoning hasn’t really changed that much, I still feel that STD is the best choice. Obviously no need to rush it, but that’s where I’d be voting.

Arko, NK was with you on the LLD push, can you explain why you switched onto him?

Today you have to name who STD partner is, as part and parcel of this. If you can't name and argue a partner for a player, it's a bad vote.

Who is the STD partner?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Sure. But we have today to figure that out too.

As I said yesterday I can see STD partnering any of you (and gave reasonings for each). That’s partly why I wanted him limmed yesterday, because I can’t exclude him from any possible pairings. In order of likelihood:

LLD
weuler
Arko

But it’s not differentiated by much, so that’s why I’d like to draw conclusions from today.

Would you vote him?

Well, from my POV you're not an STD partner as proven by this and about a million other things as I mentioned.

Nor is Weu who chained together STD and I almost expecting a town flip on NK.

And Arko... I need to look for Space/STD Arko/STD interactions to decide.

But right now STD lacks reasonable partners to be scum.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

If AV is scum then well played, scum has essentially won.

I... I don't know about that.

Right now my top concerning team is You+AV.

Arko is the top town for his behaviour WRT the FN yesterday, leaving STD as the only other option...

and STD doesn't pair well as a partner with either of you two.

So, for me, If Arko isn't scum, it HAS to be you two because STD shares minimal equity with either of you.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

And the pushes here where you say stuff like "if AV is scum, GG" only solidify this concern for me.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Well here begins the grand ol' shitshow. So... I don't have much time today to really post, same as tomorrow, but I still definitely can, so I well will.

So... Why did I vote NK15? Well because: CCG's Iso Analysis, and after being called out on "Scum Behaviour" (Which we know doesn't exist now) Kinda just didn't counter it and ended up even chainsawing me at the end (But I'd already voted and he got hammered right after) I'll say it, I got stupidly lead to vote them out (Even though at many times I'd considered them pretty towny)

So... Today's gonna be a fucking shitshow! We know that. And I'm gonna say it, I've got a pretty specific order today of suspicion, But I'd prefer we can get a moderate amount of discussion before I finalise it, push a bit more, defend myself (Something I know I'm gonna have to do here) and vote the right person. I'm Gonna say it: Aurora is most likely town. The other 3 It's a specific order but like said before, discussion would be nice.

You're my single top town so it's a little heartbreaking to hear you argue that someone who has so much equity to be scum here is the person you think is the most town.

Seriously, ignore individual reads for a moment. They're important, but we've eliminated 2 townies where I've been the counter wagon each day so it's clear there's some amount of effort put into how the days have played out.

What partnerships can exist?

So, you know you're town, and so I'll remove you.

LLD/STD
LLD/Weu
LLD/AV
STD/Weu
STD/AV
AV/Weu

This is the remaining 6 pairings, correct?

So I want you to walk through each one, consider if the way they and their predecessors have played gels as a possible team composition and then come back to me with which pairings you think are most likely.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

First point: okay if that’s the clarification, it didn’t necessarily come across that way. It sounded to me that you were only really interested in going after LLD if NK flipped town (your scum partners for NK were STD/arko), and so you’d be saying “if not NK then LLD” and when you read back your post about LLD being around today, it makes it sound like you’d be pushing her (This could be as a result of me reading through the iso backwards though)

That’s what I meant by exclusionary pairs (“one of these two is scum”) and the idea that you’d go after LLD first.

You also earlier said one of NK/arko so I’m interested as to where the LLD/STD possibility fits into that? Because the two reads linked to NK seem to contradict what you said at the end of the day here:

Looking at Space's iso I don't see Arko slot being scum with LLD or STD.

———

Pedit: okay, I see, everything is up in the air and you can now see any combo or arko/STD/LLD.

Personally I don’t see arko/LLD

And based on your own end of day comments you don’t see arko with either LLD or STD - so is that no longer the case? What’s caused that change? That’s why I asked what I did - because you’re only really leaving yourself with pushing STD/LLD or me/arko with your end of day comments. And now it could be any two of those three? I’m trying to figure out if this is opportunistic/keeping options open, or a genuine change of heart based on the NK flip.

———

Funnily enough LLD this little exchange is making me revise whether you or weuler is the most likely partner for STD.

Factors for weuler-STD: std vote on weuler when it would never happen; weuler linking you and arko to an NK townflip, but linking std to an NK scumflip, and also pairing you as scum with std but putting more focus onto your slot

Factors for you-STD is mostly based on wayward son and Fred antics that I’ve gone over before

Revise whatever you feel like.

It sounds to me like you're locked in on voting STD today, is that the case?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

LLD thinks I’m scum with you, weuler.

For some reason she doesn’t think STD or arko could be your partner.

@LLD what do you make of weuler following near-enough the exact same strategy I outlined scum!weuler would do if they were partnered with arko?

If weuler is not scum with one of STD or arko then my only conclusion is that you are scum, LLD; either with weuler himself or with STD

My dude, you keep engaging me like this when I'm not the person you need to sell.

Weuler is obvscumming in the thread right now right in front of your eyes, and you're actively ignoring this in favour of interrogating me on a worthless point.

Weuler posts all this bad logic and weird reversals trying to step in the path of my conversation with Arko and your only response is to play softball with Weuler?

This is why I think the two of you are scum together. Weuler is supremely confident that he has this in the bag, and you're not reacting to it at all.

The two of you came into today with a plan. That plan, to me, is to isolate STD and I and try to either make us suspect each other, or failing that convince Arko we are scum together.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Like, Arko and STD

I want you to look at the way Weuler and AV have progressed in this thread from their initial entrance to my challenging them to their most recent interactions.

Does this look like 2 townies in a eliminate or lose scenario to you? They come off to me as supremely confident, supremely cocky and almost taunting.

The "Arko sees AV as town" post is very that, as is Weuler being like "WELL IF I FOLLOW YOUR LOGIC I ARRIVE AT YOU BEING SCUM LLD" as if he wasn't going to push that argument today already.

This is all theatre, for your benefit specifically Arko.

You found me town by the end of yesterday, and were I scum I literally bared my neck to you and said "kill me, but I won't kill you because I think you're town".

You didn't do that, for a reason.

I beg you to look here and SEE that reason.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

And you can tell this was a chained elimination. Weuler basically spewed he knew NK15 would flip town at the end of yesterday with the "if NK15 flips town, I'll look at LLD/STD".

It was a chained elimination setup. So Weuler!scum is okay with either of STD or LLD dying because either one wins him the game, and if Arko is town which he is that leaves only one partner, the partner who has been working with him the whole game.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Like, I am specifically speaking to you Arko because this is a forgone conclusion despite how these two would like you to believe it. They're going to hmm and haww their way through this day as if they have not already made their minds up. AV entered wanting to kill STD, and when put to task on that wouldn't commit to STD being their strongest scum read.

Why?

Because the way I was positioning myself meant that maybe AV had to vote for me instead.

You can follow the mental path that AV took to get here. Slow setup onto STD, pretend to look like a townie by not being certain taking it slow blah blah blah and the second I come out saying I think it's Weuler/AV, and ask AV if STD is scum to him and where he wants to vote today there is a massive backpedal away from commitment.

Because AV and Weuler don't HAVE REAL CONVICTIONS beyond their win condition, which is just "kill a townie".

[Lady Lambdadelta]

STD is my strongest scumread but that doesn’t mean I am locked in. There are two scum so why shouldn’t I try to determine who the other one is??

I think it’s pretty clear I’m pushing weuler because I suspect them of being the std partner. I just have to see whether they’re more likely than you. If I confidently townread you, then I wouldn’t care out of std or weuler; in fact I’d probably go weuler first to avoid the weuler-arko situation I described.

That’s why I am also questioning you. But the fact you’re not engaging with my questions really isn’t helping.

So you'll consider voting Weuler today?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Not looking at the pairings is how scum hide in a 5p 2scum ELO situation, for the record. It's harder for them to hide if you look at pairings and force behaviour that way.

AV I'm not responding to you because I'm really not sure I can find you town here, but at this point I don't think I can fold my hand of Weuler scum with how he's been posting, so if you're looking to kill Weuler, assuming I'm alive come Lylo, I'm not going to just... not re-evaluate.

But right now it's... hard for me if Weuler scum to see another pairing?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

My problem, my dude, is if all I want to do is kill Weuler today why wouldn't I sell you on STD being a possible partner?

all I have to do then is say "well this made up thing here indicates possible partnership between STD/Weuler, but you also have partnership AV, so Weuler is the common link" and then push for Weuler.

My problem is I don't currently see that link so I can't give that to you. From my POV, you're the one who needs to sell me on STD being scum here. Because I'm not so certain.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

STD reasons:
(1) never really seems to give many reads
(2) weird weuler vote d1
(3) weird arko vote d2
(4) yes the KT NK could be part of this
(5) if LLD is scum then yes there’s the historic Fred-WS pairing
(6) I can’t negate any pairings
(7) no one really seems to be pushing him except me; either I’m totally wrong or scum don’t want to go after their buddy
(8) how many posts does he make that say he’ll come and post something useful later…
(9) weuler saying LLD+std but then never really pushing std (scum by association)
(10) ott reaction (“third degree”)

Also yes it was meant for to be a bit theatrical, mainly because I came up with a clever play on words and I was proud of myself.

———

But. I mean yeah. The post about arko’s iso is kinda compelling. And I’ve just isod std and there is more content there than I remember. Argh. My head is getting a little mashed.

———

@LLD I guess fmpov if you’re scum with std you’d be worried admitting the chance for weuler being scum with std would encourage me to vote std.

@weuler what do you mean by the pairs are disjoint[ed]?

How does that change from where you are right now?

I'm pitching to Arko specifically and calling you scum with Weuler. That sort of only leaves you a few options.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

@LLD at this point I feel like I want to vote weuler tbh…

That's where I'm currently at as well.

I'd love, personally, to see you vote Weuler here. Here's why.

from my POV, unless the team is EXPLICITLY Arko+STD, we can't lose when you vote that, and then at that point we prove there's one scum between you two.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Not voting

[Lady Lambdadelta]

This right here is pretty much STD and I online at the same time.

AV, you should unvote now.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

So STD and I can't be scum together.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

And there's Arko

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Not voting, still

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Arko, STD and I would have won right there.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I don't think Arko was there long enough to say confidently 100% that STD and Arko can't be a pair, but it sure felt like it might have been enough time

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Arko your logic is making 0 sense to me lol

[Lady Lambdadelta]

STD, do you honestly think the townies are You Me and Weuler?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

i dunno lady

that's why i put it in *s and TM'd it

lmfao

i love that you called me lady, like a service worker

"look i dunno lady, i just work here"

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Not voting

[Lady Lambdadelta]

okay so, we were right

at least one of those 2 is scum.

I feel as if that makes me confirmed town? For pushing BOTH of them?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

And again: Weuler, I can't tell if your trying to use your vote to dissaude us from voting AV leaning to kill you and me, (And AV would be scum in this scenario) your trying to bus them out quick so you don't get bored, or you legitimately don't see the problem with that vote without being absolutely sure of it.

He's just cross voting the person who was against him, which is the correct move. Now we know at least one of AV and Weuler is scum

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Well at this point, it's either scum/scum or scum/town

if it's scum scum we can take our time, discuss fruitlessly today and we'll always be okay for today and be able to re-evaluate tomorrow.

If it's scum-town, there's a scum in our 3 who will be looking to lead us to kill the townie.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

We should take our time and consider.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

My dude I'm getting shot tonight. I don't know how that suddenly became the case, but I'm the strongest confirmed townie here.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I mean I think there IS no right kill here for scum tonight unless one of you are.

I mean....

It's really bad for scum if I'm alive tomorrow.

If it's the one of AV/Weuler we don't vote for then I'm confirmed townie and they don't want that.

and if it's one of you two, I'm guaranteed even if we get this right today to re-evaluate you both tomorrow.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

If I'm being honest

AV choosing to vote Weuler today the way AV did on my orders....


ah it's hard to see that as scum.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

AV has a really really REALLY easy path to a win today if he is scum with STD or Arko. Just convince Weuler to do me today, that I'm the scummiest (not hard) and then Weuler votes me and it's over.

so why would AV lower his position to be in risk by voting Weuler earlier? If they're both scum, then AV hard threw the game and guaranteed a scum death today to do what?

To try and win tomorrow by confusing us?

No shot.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

In my mind, AV might literally just be town here.

I don't know about the two of you, but I'm pretty fucking sold on doing Weuler today.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

What I'm trying to say is: I heavily see AV as scum either misplaying badly, or It's AV/Weuler trying to bus and confuse.

I assure you, that AV's move is more +town than it is +scum in the world where they aren't both scum.

AV's initial vote was incredibly daring and stupid to do as scum pointed at scum.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

and if AV is scum and Weuler is town, All AV has to do is convince Weuler to kill the one of STD or I that isn't his partner (or either of us, if it's you Arko).

Weuler was very convinced on a LLD/STD world. AV's move robbed Weuler of that world being true and so why would AV do that?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

AV/LLD
AV/STD have 0 equity because those pairs win by using Weuler as their third vote.

AV/Arko is possibly less coordinated (sorry, Arko) but with Arko pushing AV rn, it's just not likely. And AV taking this risk with Arko being sus anyway is....


So what partners does AV have?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Only Weuler as a scum/scum duo. If AV is scum, Weuler is scum too.

But then that begs the question, if one of them is scum, and in all AV scum worlds, Weuler is sucm too, shouldn't we kill Weuler?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Well it's also possibly you and AV, you don't just need Weuler as your 3rd vote, you could easily use me too.

Also, I'm being real in my point of view Fenrir is more confirmed as town than you are (Fenrir/AV as you said kinda doesn't work, and Fenrir/Weuler just is a trainwreck. Me/Fenrir is possible, shut up about it we know I know it can be to you in your point of view, It's a given.)

if it's me and AV, then he convinces Weuler on STD and I don't come out today saying "IT'S ONE OF WEULER/AV"

LLD/AV makes 0 sense

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I think everyone knew it would be one of Weuler/AV once no one speedvoted that. also again, You could easily get me to vote weuler if you two were smart about it (Which could be now) Anyways, to me you've basically proved it's either AV/Weuler or You/AV. Oh well I'll probably wait on fenrir for his personal vote™ and personal input™ (Each sold seperately)

That... that's atrocious logic.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

My dude, if it was me and AV, I would have told AV to vote STD and bring Weuler along with him. Then your vote doesn't matter because Weuler+AV+Me would be a win for our scum team.

Him voting Weuler in the manner he did when I asked him to does not connect to a scumteam.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I am infact the one who is essentially confirmed town here. It's you and STD who have possible partnerships.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Your logic in this case isn't good either. How are you so sure about AV not being the right choice? How don't you understand it should be obviously 1 scum in that when no one voted (And that everyone should know that, unless me/fenrir took the waiting game, which I doubt you believe is the case and is pretty backed up to not be possible) and also, It makes no sense to argue that you two would have to get specifically weuler to vote with you (Because You could of just as easily gotten anyone else right now to vote with you, but AV probably scuffed it with Fenrir, so really just me and weuler)

Because the mechanics of how a final ELO are played disallow it. Scum will play for an easy win that doesn't leave them at risk.

AV voting Weuler when I told him to would be a terrible move if we were scum together, and that goes for if he's with STD or with you.

AV had Weuler IN HIS CORNER. Choosing to vote the person MOST LIKELY TO VOTE AND WORK WITH HIM isntead of buttering him up is RIDICULOUS as a scum choice.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

You can't just say my logic is wrong without debunking it and you're not even engaging with it.

You're saying things that have NO possible logical solution to them, because it would require the scumplayers to act against their best interests.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I'll lay it out:
You could get Weuler to vote Fenrir via just staying on the normal course
You could get me to Vote Weuler via getting me to turn on him and using my suspicion from the last day
You could get me to Vote Fenrir via just staying on the normal course
You could get Fenrir to Vote Me via abusing my bad vote yesterday
You could get Fenrir to vote Weuler via something I guess, I can't really of think of it currently, but it's probably a mix of both 2 and 4 and some extra parts

These all could of worked. Infact, you could of ended up in a situation where BOTH me and weuler could of thought fenrir as scum. These are a load of possibilities that most likely AV has recently fucked up (Weuler can't be convinced, Fenrir is a wildcard, and I'm already convinced of AV being scum)

You could of also won by getting us to vote out AV and then Weuler as well. You don't have just one possibility here, if you were both scum you most likely fucked all these up by now besides this one.

I TOLD HIM TO DO IT.

AND SCUM HAVE DAYTALK.

SCUM CAN PLAN.

IF AV DID SOMETHING, AND I WERE SCUM WITH HIM, WE WOULD HAVE DISCUSSED THE MOVE TOGETHER.

SO YOU SAYING "AV PLAYED WRONG" IS RIDICULOUS BECAUSE HE WOULDN'T HAVE THE CHANCE TO DO THAT. WE WOULD HAVE MADE OUR MOVE TOGETHER.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

what partnerships make sense to you LLD

i agree LLD/AV doesn't make a lot of sense it's a lot of weird theatre speculating about voting weuler.

What theatre, STD? Like, right now trying to talk it out?

I'm not voting Weuler because I don't want Weuler to come on and hammer himself, plus I want to interogate this more and think about my choice. It's worth talking out, just... not with the logic Arko is giving.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

no, with you and AV if you were scum together doesn't make sense because you were like "vote weuler" and he was like "okay i'm voting weuler now" which is weird if your plan was to try and fool people into voting weuler or something i can't fathom why you would do that in the thread

Precisely, yes. It makes 0 sense.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

like LLD/AV makes no sense

and AV/STD makes no sense to me either because he could have come out of the gate suspecting me more and Weuler would have followed on that too. Arko's not hard to convince to suspect me either, as evidenced.

AV/Arko I really don't think they play this way either. If the town would be Weuler/STD/LLD... it's again just best to convince Weuler to vote either of us, AV agrees and Arko follows by scum hammering principle.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

In the scenario of a Scum/Town, Weuler would be town 90%. Why? Because out of the 3 of us no pairs even function right. Weuler/Fenrir just no. Weuler/You? Unlikely by a heavy degree. Weuler/Me? I already know that isn't the case. So it must either be Aurora as a single scum out of that, or both of them.

Why do these pairs not function, Arko?

like, STD and I have given solid reasons why it's not likely AV is scum here with any of us. Only with Weuler.

But you're just saying these, so why?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

What I'm saying is: In a Scum/Town, Weuler + one of us doesn't work well enough, and AV would have to be the scum 90%, and in Scum/Scum Both are scum anyways. So It makes a lot of sense for me to vote AV, right?

It's the opposite of that. If it's scum/town, AV is the one who is town 90% of the time, not Weuler.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

The only reason I am arguing this with you at this point Arko is that if you are town, you will be used to achieve the final missed elimination this way.

If you're scum... it'll resolve itself but

[Lady Lambdadelta]

If Weuler/Delta were scum, they'd be happy with me trying to kill AV.

If Weuler/Fenrir were scum, that wouldn't be real, or they are playing 3 dimensions in front of us at that point.

If Weuler/Me were scum, I already know that can't happen

The Bolded one is correct. If I was scum with Weuler, I'd let you kill AV right now.

The Italics one doesn't make sense? Why wouldn't it be real, in what way would they be playing 3 dimmensions? AV votes Weuler, STD can't hammer so he plays quiet and.... now we're here?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Like congrats, you've successfully identified why I can't be scum with anyone at this point.

There is at LEAST one scum in AV/Weu

I can't be scum with Weu or I'd let you vote AV and hammer AV and win.

I can't be scum with AV because I wouldn't have told AV to vote Weu and we'd have used Weu to kill STD.

I can't be scum here.

So as a townie, I am telling you, AV's position doesn't exist as a scum partner with any of us.

I don't have a reason not to think you could be scum with Weuler.

And In don't get your logic for STD/Weuler at this point

[Lady Lambdadelta]

do you think it likely i'm scum with weuler?

There is a difference between "likely" and "possible"

It's possible you're scum with Weuler.

It's not likely.

Where as it's not possible based on scenario and outcomes that I am scum with Weu OR AV.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I think it just doesn't work in Scum/Town for both to be paired, due to their interactions and today.

Explain why. Give me reasons you hold this belief. What interactions? What part of their actions today made you believe this?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I dunno... How about the fact Weuler would of definitely killed Fenrir today if AV didn't switch to them? If they were both scum it wouldn't make sense. also Town!AV voting weuler like that would make no sense either, so both AV's Vote and how Weuler was playing wouldn't make sense.

If Weuler would have killed STD today if AV hadn't switched to them

guess what that means about my alignment my dude?

If Weuler ALWAYS KILLS STD

THEN AV VOTING WEULER IS A HARD GAME THROW IF IT'S LLD/AV SCUM.

CAUSE LLD/AV/WEULER IS ENUOGH VOTES TO WIN FOR SCUM LLD/AV THERE.

AND IT CAN'T HAVE BEEN A MISTAKE BY AV, BECAUSE I TOLD HIM TO FUCKIGN DO IT.

AND I CLEARLY SHOWED THAT I UNDERSTOOD THIS PATH.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Like think for a second: If Weuler/Fenrir were both scum, they could probably easily convince me to mislim someone, so why would they play in such a way? It. doesn't. work. For both the Hypothetical Weuler/Fenrir AND Aurora and other town members.

In any argument where you are saying this is true, is proves LLD/AV must be town by your own logic.

BY YOUR OWN LOGIC.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

My god I'm not trying to get YOU and AV Killed! I'm trying to get fucking AV and most likely also weuler killed. I don't know how you don't understand this.

right but I've proven I can't be sucm with AV by your logic.

YOU HAVE NOT PROVEN YOU'RE NOT SCUM WITH WEU.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

So for me it makes way more sense to vote Weu first because if they're both scum it won't make a difference but Weu is the only one in my opinion who has scum equity outside of the Weu/AV pairing.

Weu/STD is unlikely but possible
Weu/Arko is possible.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

but AV/LLD
AV/STD
AV/Arko Are NOT POSSIBLE.

So we should kill Weuler today.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

the way i see it now is it's probably just weuler and AV cross bussing each other. it's a bit of a strange play but neither of their reads on each other feels as organic as it should. if this is true it doesn't matter which one we hit.

LLD doesn't make a lot of sense as scum with either AV or weuler.

i think arko is trying even if i'm not following his logic so maybe it's not arko but i want to look back and see if he has partner equity with either weuler/AV

This feels legitimately organic and correct.

This is precisely where I'm standing except it's easier to rule me town than it is to rule you town so I'm a little paranoid about you.

Which is why I'm trying to sort of coral Arko to do Weuler because it feels safer, IMO. It feels like Weuler is ALWAYS scum here, where AV is only often scum here.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Like there are Weu/STD worlds AND there are Weu/Arko worlds

so I want Weu today such that those worlds are dodged.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

So Can you like temporarily SHUT THE FUCK UP? Sorry to raise the uhh bar of rudeness, I didn't want to. But I kinda have to because you don't seem to be listening or uhh reading. I'm trying to say: Weuler can't be the single scum in 99% of scenarios, and in double scum BOTH are. The common link is AV. Thus, I want AV Gone! Simple logic! If it is single-scum out of those, I'M NOT SAYING YOU ARE SCUM. I do not want you dead, and I don't think you are scum in like 90% of situations, and fenrir like 91% of them. I'm basically convincing you: AV/Weuler both scum, and even if not AV is 99% likely to be scum by both play, logic, and POE. Who is the scum with AV if weuler isn't? That's a discussion for tomorrow, and I'm NOT accusing you.

Sorry for the rudeness, but You won't read what I'm saying, you've been rude to me, and have been basically doing the equivalent of screaming at many points over the last 2 days.

IF YOU ARE NOT SAYING I AM SCUM, THEN YOU HAVE TO VOTE WITH ME.

IF ALL 3 TOWN DO NOT VOTE TOGETHER TODAY, WE LOSE.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

So Can you like temporarily SHUT THE FUCK UP? Sorry to raise the uhh bar of rudeness, I didn't want to. But I kinda have to because you don't seem to be listening or uhh reading. I'm trying to say: Weuler can't be the single scum in 99% of scenarios, and in double scum BOTH are. The common link is AV. Thus, I want AV Gone! Simple logic! If it is single-scum out of those, I'M NOT SAYING YOU ARE SCUM. I do not want you dead, and I don't think you are scum in like 90% of situations, and fenrir like 91% of them. I'm basically convincing you: AV/Weuler both scum, and even if not AV is 99% likely to be scum by both play, logic, and POE. Who is the scum with AV if weuler isn't? That's a discussion for tomorrow, and I'm NOT accusing you.

Sorry for the rudeness, but You won't read what I'm saying, you've been rude to me, and have been basically doing the equivalent of screaming at many points over the last 2 days.

I'm obligated to be polite to in response to this because you're a newbie and I want to be a good example for our site but let me just say this: It's not that I'm not reading your logic, it's that I literally can't find a logical path from it that makes a lick of sense.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

So Can you like temporarily SHUT THE FUCK UP? Sorry to raise the uhh bar of rudeness, I didn't want to. But I kinda have to because you don't seem to be listening or uhh reading. I'm trying to say: Weuler can't be the single scum in 99% of scenarios, and in double scum BOTH are. The common link is AV. Thus, I want AV Gone! Simple logic! If it is single-scum out of those, I'M NOT SAYING YOU ARE SCUM. I do not want you dead, and I don't think you are scum in like 90% of situations, and fenrir like 91% of them. I'm basically convincing you: AV/Weuler both scum, and even if not AV is 99% likely to be scum by both play, logic, and POE. Who is the scum with AV if weuler isn't? That's a discussion for tomorrow, and I'm NOT accusing you.

Sorry for the rudeness, but You won't read what I'm saying, you've been rude to me, and have been basically doing the equivalent of screaming at many points over the last 2 days.

My dude, what will you do if you're town and STD is scum with Weuler and we lose when you vote AV?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

i kind of want AV but i think i understand what you're saying
'
pedit whoa

honestly get me out, lmfao

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I just don't want to lose while I have a voice, STD.

If I'm dead tomorrow and the wrong choice gets made, whatever.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

In my opinion, I feel like it being both of AV and Weuler would be extremely weird.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

i mean it sounds like to LLD, weuler seems like a good option because she's more paranoid of weuler/????

i think arko thinks AV is a good option because he's more paranoid of AV/????

i think it's possibly just AV/weuler at this point and we're talking in circles when it doesn't really matter which one we do

So by this logic, because you think I'm more town, you should follow me here. If you think all 3 of us are town, we all have to vote together today.

If you don't, then... ah...

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Final time I play asshole:

I AM NOT ACCUSING YOU.

I AM CALLING YOU TOWN.

I AM NOT AGAINST YOU

I AM AGREEING WITH YOU.

Thank you! Sorry to snap, but jesus fucking christ. Honestly Cathartic at this point. I am not expected to immediately go along with you at all points just because I agree with you.

Also, I'm voting AV due to finding them the common link here and more likely in a single scum scenario. It changes nothing, both are scum 95%+. I'm just saying I have a bit more faith in AV being scum than Weuler even though both are within the 99% range of being scum.

If you think I'm town, in an ELO situation, we have to vote together.

Also, stop fucking apologizing when you don't mean it. You don't get to call me an Asshole and then fucking pretend I'm the one at fault for it.

Grow the fuck up.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

i think he was calling himself an asshole there like "final time i'm playing the asshole"

Eh? Wouldn't it be

"Final TIme I play, Asshole?" as in like, "this is the final time I do this argument with you, asshole"?

That's how I read that especially after he apologized (again)

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Honestly.

Vote: Weuler

[Lady Lambdadelta]

If one of you is scum with AV, it's all yours.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

VOTE: Weuler

Ah. Well played.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I just don't get why AV doesn't go for me? You win that way?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Whoever dies here between them might as well not matter. In the chance one isn't scum, I'm more sure of AV being scum. Thus I want to vote AV. Can you understand now? I've simplified it twice.

It's over. It was AV/STD.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

@LLD I got paranoid and thought (a) weuler was coming for me OR std and (b) I wanted you to town read me so you wouldn’t destroy my carefully built towncred…

that's so strange, aha. I feel like you had the win on this game a while back if you just decided it was me and used Arko or Weuler.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I really thought it was safe when STD wanted to kill AV too, that's what sold me.

Well, no, the being insulted by the dude who is my top townread to the point where I question if I want to play anymore probably had more to do with it.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Honestly...

Weuler/AV double scum was never on my mind. I knew that was bait.

So... I was trying to sort which of AV/Weu were scum to find the partne,r btu then both the people wanted to kill AV so I was like.... AV's just town I guess?

I also think AV voting for Weuler was...